SWHT. Jim Smyrl, Bikers Against Trafficking

 This interview features Jim “Stog” Smyrl of Bikers Against Trafficking, an all‑volunteer organization focused on combating sex trafficking and supporting victims, especially children. Jim explains how trafficking often begins online through grooming and manipulation, frequently involving family members rather than strangers. BAT works with foster agencies, provides trauma‑informed training and resources, and emphasizes awareness, prevention, and reporting rather than vigilantism. The conversation highlights the scale of trafficking, the deep trauma victims endure, and the critical role parents, communities, and education play in protecting children. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Hello, welcome again to the secret world of human trafficking. I'm your host, David J. Story. I'm also the author of the Omega book series. I have a very special guest on my show today. I hope you'll learn something from today's episode. So let's get started. Well, let's go ahead and get started. Uh we're talking with uh Jim Smurl here, and he's with uh well I'll go ahead and get you to introduce yourself and the organization that you are with, and a little bit about yourself, if you would.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Yeah, well, thanks for having me. I appreciate the invitation. Uh my name is Jim Smurle. Uh I'm with Bikers Against Trafficking in South Carolina. We uh are a national uh organization of uh bikers and people like-minded. Uh so a lot of our members don't ride, but they are passionate about the mission to uh stop human traffickers and serve uh survivors, and so that is our focus here. Uh bikers Against Trafficking uh was started by uh two folks in Florida, husband and wife. Both of them were trafficked in uh their younger years and uh came out of the life. They uh received um both of them have our licensed counselors now, and uh they they do tremendous work uh in Florida, and so we're replicating that uh in South Carolina now.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Well, great. Uh I was gonna ask if uh you had to be a biker to be part of your group.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

A lot of people ask that. No, there's there's plenty of us that uh they don't ride, but they're certainly passionate about serving uh trafficking survivors. We call them drivers in uh in in bikers against trafficking instead of survivors because they are the most resilient people you've ever met when they come out of the life and receive the care that they need. Uh quite incredible.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Now do you ride or I do, yes, yeah. Okay. What where do you ride? I have a uh Road King. I've been a Road King man my whole my whole life. And so uh grew up starting out on a little Honda 50, but as soon as I uh got uh got to where I could, I was uh a Harley guy and loved the Road Kings.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

My dad was a biker way back when he had an Indian. He wrote an Indian. Okay, yeah, yeah. And uh I saw a picture of him. Uh he reminded me of the Fonz. I love it. Had the hairs slicked back and the cigarette rolled up in the sleeve and all of that. So yeah. Uh him and my mother got married on their on the bike. She was a biker chick, I guess. That's cool. That's cool. Only thing I ever ridden, I I did some you know off-road riding, you know, Kawasaki's and stuff like that. That's fun too. Oh, yeah, it it was. I got several battle scars from that. I understand. Well, tell me uh about your organization and what all it does.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah, we uh we look at ourselves as uh a support organization, and and primarily in South Carolina, uh we work with an agency, uh their name is Oasis of Hope. They are a licensed placement agency in South Carolina, licensed through the Department of Uh Social Services. And uh when a child comes in that uh has been trafficked, uh we come in along beside the foster parents and provide training for them. We provide resources for them if they need uh specific help as far as finding uh additional counseling resources. It is uh is a very niche um area of counseling that someone uh understands uh a child that's been trafficked and what they've gone through psychologically. Uh same with doctors. Uh we work with doctors to understand what this child has been through because you know you go in with your child and prop them up on the table, and the doctor comes in, pats them on the knee, and says, How are you doing? Well, we don't think anything about it, but a child that's been trafficked that could be considered a sexual advance and really throw up some quick walls and uh trauma memory to them. And so we work across the board uh mainly with our uh Oasis of Hope foster parents to provide resources and we partner with churches that are close to the homes that you know can help out when the child has needs and uh really just stay there as a strong support system for each of those foster families.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

That's fantastic. Well, how many groups do you all have? What states do you cover and what areas?

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Uh we uh there are 12 chapters right now, uh several you know in the U.S., uh, you know, Texas, Virginia, Florida, South Carolina. Uh we have uh one in uh Canada and a few international that are out there. Uh but you know, uh hoping that more and more will jump on and and begin uh the necessary work. You know, we do a lot in uh raising awareness too and speaking on college campuses and PTA meetings and uh community uh events, and we go and set up at any kind of event that we're able to go to uh and just share information. We always find that people are surprised that trafficking is happening right in their backyard. It's not a southern border thing, it's not something coming in from another country or you know, in the inner city. It's it's in the rural parts, it's in the inner city, it's in the suburbs, it is everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Yeah, in my research uh doing my uh my books, I found Atlanta is a major hub for human trafficking.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

And I was saying, anywhere that you see a major uh interstate network uh is gonna is gonna be a hub. Uh just the nature of that uh in moving um the victims from one place to another, uh the the hubs of interstates, uh you know, truck stops are are are big uh as far as human traffic is going on. Uh but yeah, that interstate system you can kind of draw a line and say, well, I I can see where it's happening just by looking at that network.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Okay. Is this all you do, or is you have another job?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

I do. All of us in uh BAT are volunteers from our international president, and everyone else is a volunteer. Um and so you know, all of the the resources that we have go to raising awareness and uh supporting um survivors. Uh I work uh full-time uh with uh prison fellowship that was started by Chuck Coulson 50 years ago, and uh so we work to our our mission is to encounter Jesus with those impacted by incarceration, and so we work with men and women that are on the inside, we serve their families, uh children, uh you know, we have advocacy that works to um uh through legislation, and so it's it's an amaz amazing organization I've ever been a part of. I mean, just really seeing transformation taking place uh behind the fence, if you will, and there's some amazing things that are happening.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

That's great, that's great. Yeah, I would like to uh perhaps one day be able to interview someone who was a trafficker and just find out, you know, uh how they tick, why they do it, and just just get into the I guess the darker side of human trafficking and talk with one of them, either one-on-one or via phone or or whatever. Uh my goal is to, you know, talk with people like you, law enforcement, legal, uh, medical, uh anybody I can to get the word out and to uh help educate people. Yeah, very important. I'm yeah, I'm looking for somebody who's expert on the on the dark web. And I know a lot of the trafficking and stuff goes on in that area, and a lot of people don't know about it. And it's it's pretty big. Uh understand you're you're married and have a family.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

I do, yeah. Um married to Catherine Mann. She's an author. We've been married a little over five years. We have nine kids and nine grandkids between us. So yeah, but um uh that keeps us uh busy and uh wonderfully so. Um so we're very very blessed.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

That's good. Uh well tell me about your wife's book.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Yeah, she uh uh Catherine names Catherine Mann with a C. Um she has uh been writing over 25 years. Her most recent book is Lightning in a Mason Jar. Uh she is on the USA Today bestsellers list and a Rita Award winner, and Lightning in a Mason Jar is uh women's historical fiction, but uh it actually is appealing to a lot of guys. In fact, I was just talking with a guy at work. Uh we were on a meeting together, he said, Hey, I'm reading your wife's book. He said, I, you know, he said, I grew up in Michigan, I live in Arizona now, but all of a sudden I want to move to the South. He said, I feel like nostalgia for a place I've never been, uh, because that's a setting of this book. And so uh just uh really has reached a very wide uh audience and uh very compelling uh book. It's Lightning in a Mason Jar.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Oh, great, great. Uh I'll have to see about picking that up.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Well, tell me uh you know what you can about your family. I understand uh you uh adopted two children, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, we uh my my late wife passed away of uh uh cancer in uh 20 uh seventeen. Sorry to hear that. Um thank you. She she battled uh valiantly for for 26 months, but we had uh uh five daughters, our our two youngest were adopted. Most of the trafficking victims that are identified, their trafficking began by a family member, whether it was mom, dad, brother, cousin, uncle, and and sometimes you know, people will look at it as something that was simple. And well, this person owed a drug debt, and so they said, you know, this child can be yours for an hour. Uh that's not simple. That was a lifetime of trauma that is infused into that child in a short time. And so from that, you know, that those ripple effects take place and that becomes a pattern of family members. And so um uh sadly and disgustingly, there is an extremely high demand among um among people for um five and under uh sexually. And so yeah. Uh and so we we see that across the United States. Uh, and so you know, we we talk a lot about, well, this this teenager or this young adult was trafficked, and you know, it it goes we we say it goes from infancy to senior adult. We had uh a situation where there was a senior adult in a facility in South Carolina uh found out that he was being trafficked in that facility, and so we were able to get him out, get him back with family members in another state. But it is across the board. The demand drives it, and the demand uh is for infant through senior adult. Um but yeah, most of the most of the victims that we serve, um, their trafficking horror began uh when a family member sold them for drugs or sold them to pay off a debt or to gain advantage or something like that. Uh second to that, we we see uh kids that are seing. You know, they'll send an inappropriate picture to um a boyfriend or a girlfriend, and well, you know, that relationship breaks up or that uh picture gets sent to someone else. And traffickers have algorithms just like every other business does, and they can pick up on those things, and so they get those pictures, and then their sex tortion where they say, if you don't do this act, we're gonna send this picture to your church, to your family, to your grandmama, all of those things. And so fear gets into those children. And so part of our training to parents is to really open that line of communication up. Hey, if you messed up and you sent an inappropriate picture and somebody is doing this to you, tell us. We will jump in there with you and help you. Um, but the big message to kids is never, ever, ever send the picture or take a picture, in an inappropriate picture of yourself because that is a trafficker's key to the front door of your life. If they get that inappropriate picture, it literally is will open the front door of your life and in their minds they're gonna own you quickly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

I did a uh podcast on a uh group called 764. I don't know if you're familiar with them. And that's how they work. You know, they yeah, they blackmail kids. And I was shocked to to read how uh you know some of the stuff they do now, they get you know kids to uh commit murder and to uh harm themselves and all like that. But yeah, it's there's some a lot of sick people out there. Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Well if you look at the you know, if you look at trafficking revenue and um you know the the the UN uh put out a report that that showed that uh from what they know, right, uh that trafficking generates more revenue than Apple, Exxon, and McDonald's does annually. So if you add combined Apple Exxon and McDonald's combined annual revenue, human trafficking is a higher profit than that. So it's not just a um, you know, well, this happened over here in this neighborhood, or oh, I saw one story on the news. Um, you know, there are millions that this is happening too across the world.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yeah, and uh that's another thing I covered that you know uh it's getting more and more uh profit for them than drugs. Yes. Because, you know, they can sell an ounce of cocaine for X number of dollars and that's it. But you know, if they have somebody that they're selling their body, then they can sell that body over and over and over again for for years. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

I don't know what the I don't know what the average lifespan for someone in trafficking uh seven seven to eight years once they go in and they say it's a seven to eight year lifespan, because you know, most most traffickers will get their uh victims uh hooked on some type of drug, uh, which you know is their means by controlling them as well. Um, and you know, they they intentionally work to separate them from any type of bond or relationship that they have, so they don't have anybody to reach out to. Um and you know, I I see those and and I'm I'm very cautious in talking about stats because you know the Attorney General of South Carolina just put out the uh anti-human trafficking report and show the numbers and all that. Well, when you say, okay, there were three or four hundred cases reported in South Carolina, well, the the source of those reports is limited. It's not all of the places that it was reported to. And even by the most conservative uh uh estimates, uh less than 1% of kids that are being trafficked are actually ever found. And so if you take 1%, um, you know, we celebrate when a trafficker is caught and when a child is rescued. Uh, and that's kind of I say, let's put it under the microscope, there's something to celebrate there. But when you pan out and look at it through a big lens, we don't have anything to celebrate. If it's less than 1% that we are rescuing and serving, we've got a long, long way to go in this battle. And you mentioned a key word, reported.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Not all of them, not all are reported. No. Most of them, you know, like a lot of the kids that get caught up into that are runaways.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Yeah, I think that's a good idea. We post on our um on our social media when you know when a child is labeled as a runaway because that puts them in in the top five high risk of uh being trafficked. Um and so when a child is a runaway, our mind immediately goes, are they running to their trafficker? Is that where they went? Did their trafficker finally persuade them through their chat rooms or gaming systems or straight from a social media site or whatever it may be? Did they finally convince that child to leave? Uh, and that very, very often happens.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Yes, unfortunately. Unfortunately. Uh you mentioned earlier, which is sort of a sad statistic that uh a lot of the uh trafficking is through families. Yes. And uh I just cannot imagine taking my child, I have two sons, and they're grown now. Uh but uh you know selling them off for sex. Yeah, I that's just something I can I cannot comprehend in my mind, in my heart, to do that with someone that I supposedly love. Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

And yeah, and and I think that is um and I'm the same way, David. You know, I I I can't grasp the mindset or what it took to get there um to such a horrendous act against your own child. Um and I think that's probably a wall for a lot of people not recognizing how pervasive trafficking is in our communities because they can't imagine that they would ever do that. And it's one of the, you know, one of the most horrific crimes that anyone can think of is an abuse or sexual offense against a child. And so I think there's a part of it too that people, you know, I don't want to know about it. You know, I mean, I've literally had people say, oh no, no, don't tell me anymore. I can't I can't take that. I can't take that. Uh I get it. You know, we deal with some very uh difficult situations and difficult stories and difficult, um, painful uh times that we go through. But if we're going to to turn the tide and uh stop traffickers and serve uh survivors, we we've got to get in the place that's just dark and painful to be.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Yeah. Uh yeah, I went through some dark places when I uh was doing my research for my books on trafficking. And uh I just there's nights that uh I couldn't sleep because of what I came across. Yeah. And you know, I added a lot of it to my books and all like that. And you know, people have made comments that uh you know they didn't realize. But I tell people, you know, even though my books are fiction, they're based on true true stuff.

unknown 18:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

True hands. And uh uh another interview I did was uh from a person who had been I guess trafficked uh by his father. And I included some of what happened to him in my third book. So uh my third book is partly true. Uh even though the you know the situations are are different and all like that, but uh but uh you know he wanted to be uh protected as far as voice and all like that. So uh I had to uh uh disguise his voice, and of course we didn't do his picture and all like that. But uh that's sad that people have to go through that. Uh I mean it's nothing shameful what he'd uh he did. Right. Uh he was you know pressured by his his father.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yeah. And uh yeah, and even the victims that aren't, you know, pressured by a family member, there is a common uh theme that they feel guilty. You know, their their trafficker convinces them you created this, you know, this is what you really wanted. This is, you know, a situation because you did this. Um, and so there is a lot of guilt transference that goes on by the trafficker to that victim. And so when they are pulled out of the life, uh that is one of the you know, the issues that through um counseling and therapy that has to be dealt with. And you know, they they have this overwhelming sense of guilt that they've done something wrong, not that they something wrong has been done to them. In fact, we find that a lot if you say, well, you know, we we're thankful that we could rescue you from trafficking, you know, or something, you know, in that nature, we wouldn't say that. But um, you know, that's how well you mean I wasn't trafficked, you know, and they were being sold for sex, but they they can't wrap their mind around that they're a victim of that.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Right. Yeah. Exactly. Well, tell us about the the OASIS.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yeah, um, Oasis of Hope, um, they uh licensed foster agency, uh placement agency in uh in South Carolina, and uh we uh partner with them, and when a child comes in that has been uh trafficked, uh we uh go in and support those foster homes and foster families uh to make sure that they have uh all that they need. But Oasis of Hope, amazing group of people. Um they have, I would say they don't just check the boxes, they have a true heart for the kids and families that they serve, which isn't always the case in the foster system. And so I would say that the families that are connected with Oasis of Hope um are tremendously blessed to have a resource like Oasis of Hope and the people that are there. Um, you know, I've I've known um one of their uh employees for 30 plus years and uh just amazing people with a heart to help those that are hurting. And so we're very grateful uh to have Oasis of Hope as a partner. Uh I'm thankful they're in my state of South Carolina and uh that we are are connected in this work together.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yeah. Yeah, definitely want to give them a plug and perhaps uh I'll reach out to them and see if they want to uh be on the show and yeah, that'd be great.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

I'm sure they Would be take interest in it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah. That's good. That's good. Tell us about your education and and training program that you have for your bikers that is against traffic.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Yeah, we offer um, you know, and we can uh tailor an education uh plan to uh whatever group that we're with. And so, you know, usually when we get an invitation to come somewhere to speak, uh, you know, I'll talk with the organizer. Okay, tell me about the audience there, what's their interest, do they have any background whatsoever. And so, you know, we we've trained um uh staff that are in uh group homes that serve children and train them in what to look for in trafficking, uh what to do, uh, what not to do. Uh, you know, I I spoke at um Coastal Carolina a while back to a group of college students and just you know giving them the picture hey, here's what's out there. This is what predators are doing, and here's how you open the door to them, and you don't even know it. And so really uh the training is awareness first, but also uh let's say we're at a PTA at an elementary school. You know, I want those parents and teachers to know what are the signs that a child's being trafficked? What do I do if I see that? Um, you know, how can we guard our children from uh predators that are aggressively pursuing kids? I mean, there's no other way to put it. When they're on games or chat rooms or on social media, there you need to understand that there are predators out there that are aggressively pursuing our children and teenagers. And so we provide training to really try to be a wall between uh that that child, that teenager, and that predator so that they don't have that opportunity to walk through that door. Uh, we see so many times that kids get let into this and you know, they may put something on social media or say something in a gaming system where, man, you know, I'm I'm tired, I don't have any friends, I don't have any money, everybody else has this iPhone, uh, you know, all this kind of stuff. Well, the predators pick up on that, and so they begin to develop that relationship. Um, and eventually they're promising them the exact thing that that child, that teenager has said maybe been two, three months ago that they were hoping to get. And they're promising them and that and the world. Um, so um I would say that a word that probably isn't often used when it comes to child predators is they're patient. I mean, they will work the long game to get into that child's mind, to build trust, to build confidence. Um, and then you know that door opens and and the horror begins. Um so we really uh work hard in our trainings to equip the audience based on where they are. If they're parents with kids, okay, we're gonna talk about what's happening in your home. If they're teachers, we're gonna talk about here's how to recognize it. If they're uh college students, all right, you have some freedoms now on your phone and social media and laptop and everywhere you go. But let's talk about some safety uh precautions that you can put in place to reduce those chances that a predator is gonna knock on your social media door.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Yeah, I'll make sure that you know uh as we're talking, I'll I'll uh put the their names and everything, organization groups on uh podcasts where people can uh go and and look it up and uh get some education. And uh you I'm in Atlanta and you mentioned that there you didn't mention Atlanta, so I'm hoping that uh someday soon uh one of your organizations, your biker organizations can uh have a a uh a branch or uh whatever you want to call it uh here in chapter.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Yeah, if um if there's anybody that's listening that lives in uh Georgia that might be interesting in starting uh bikers against trafficking in Georgia, um, you know, they can reach out uh to me and I can get them in touch with our uh international president and and you know kind of go through that process. And there's a lot of conversations that are had. And of course we conduct very extensive background checks on every single member, not just the presidents um of each chapter, uh, but would love to see uh something happening there.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Great, great. Uh we'll see if we can get that going for you. Yeah. And uh uh it'd be great to have a chapter in every state, or multiple chapters in every state. That's the dream. That's the mission, yeah. That's the dream, and it all starts with a dream. That's right. Uh tell me about some more of your your slides. I know you uh you said you had a uh a few slides that you wanted to go over.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Uh yeah, you know, uh some of those were just some of the things we talked about as far as what uh what that is involved in in uh surviving minors. And you know, we have our other chapters, and and the great thing about uh Doc, our our international president, is he really says, okay, where where are you uh leaning towards? What area of trafficking uh fight do you want to be in? And so there's some that they're very big on awareness. I mean, they're at a different event about every weekend and setting up the you know tables and tents and passing out literature and information. Uh some go to the major bike uh rallies and events and spread the word there. Um, you know, others are more into you know community education. And we kind of took the the angle that our priority is going to be children in foster care that have been trafficked and we're gonna serve them. Uh and second to that is we're gonna be involved in uh the aspects of uh uh public education and awareness. So um, you know, a lot of those slides in that presentation kind of give an overview of of what we are and what we do.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Okay. And you mentioned in one of the slides about the Polaris project.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Yeah, Polaris is uh that's one of the uh really the primary reporting agency um that um that reports statistics on human trafficking and what comes through the human trafficking hotline that anyone can call and should. And um that hotline is uh is a lifeline uh to people. You know, if you're out somewhere, in fact, we got a tip uh last week uh of a situation at uh in the upstate of South Carolina that someone saw, man, there's you know, there's a couple of men that have come in and out of this hotel room we're staying in, they're down the hall, and and uh you know it sounds like some things are going on in there. We saw a young girl that came out, then another one came out, and uh so we, you know, we got them to report that to the human trafficking hotline. Uh that gets the sled or local authorities. But we always tell people if you see something that is uh immediate, someone's being harmed, someone's being abused, someone's being threatened, call 911, right? Uh and uh so that that is our big push is that have that hotline number ready because the more training you receive in human trafficking, the more you're gonna be aware, and the more signs you're gonna see when you're at Walmart or in the grocery line or on vacation or wherever you may be. So having that hotline to call and report and say, hey, I I think this is something that we should be concerned about. Um, you know, most um law enforcement agencies would will tell you they'd rather get 10 reports that turned out to be nothing than to not get that one report that was really something and a child was being abused.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yeah, that's uh I think uh what stops a lot of people, they number one, they a lot of people don't want to get involved. Right. Uh and also they say, well, what if it's just you know me reading in the something and it's not real and you know I call the police and they show up and find out to be nothing. Well, that's like you said, it's better for it to be nothing. Right. I mean that that's the plus. But those occasions where it is something.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

I was uh looking over some of your slides. Uh there's one that uh I think we covered most of them, but the uh seven Ps. Say that again. The seven P's. How do predators groom children? Yeah, we you know we did touch on that.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

But you you know, yeah, those are there are several ways to put that. You know, the seven so the seven P's are you know it it really begins what people need to know is it begins with the simplicity of a conversation on a platform that that predator can get to. Um, you know, and and parents are the front line of defense here, you know, parents and teachers and medical workers and and all of that. Um, but parents for sure in in knowing how to set up uh the proper blocks on their kids' gaming systems, on their social media, all of that, and having regular checks with it. Um, you know, we tell our our foster parents and and uh the the kids that are in there, we get them to sign a contract. And and part of that contract is any time of any day, your foster mom or dad can get your you know, your device, your laptop, your cell phone, whatever it is, and look through it. Um and you know, they're they're they're very resourceful. Uh, you know, kids are because they just you know they want some privacy and all of that, and I get that. Uh, but you know, to understand that with that privacy, there could be a very high price to pay because traffickers know that kids want privacy and they know where those uh backdoor entrances are to those different systems and and chat rooms and all of that. Um, so you know, we we look at that and and reminding parents that they're going to try to find, the traffickers are going to try to find a place where it's evident you're not looking because of the conversations their child's having. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Well, that's uh another point that I've talked about uh previously is uh you know the child's rights. You know, where do you you know where do those rights come into play when it comes to their safety? As far as, you know, like you said, looking into their uh internet browsing and what they're doing online and all that. You know, where do you draw the line as far as you know their privacy?

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

As far as we're talking about a minor, you know, not an adult.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah, no, well, I you know, I tell parents, grandparents, uh, you know, whoever it may be that is responsible for that child, they live in your home, they eat your food, the uh you pay for that device, your power charges that device. Uh, you know, uh that you know, we've taken too far too many steps back, in my opinion, in that process of letting our child have freedom and experience and not taking enough step forwards and saying, it's it's my responsibility to protect my child. And more than likely, the greatest threat to my child is not inside my home, it's on the device that's inside my home. Um, and more than likely, my greatest threat to my child is not going to be, you know, the old story of a white van pulling up and snatching a child. We never hear that story, right? I mean, that that's just you know, that's not a thing. Um so if parents understand, you know, the greatest threat to your child is on their tablet, on their device, whatever it is, then they would stop being so concerned about is my child having enough privacy? Uh privacy is where the traffickers are looking for. And if as a parent I realize wherever my child has privacy, that is where the trafficker is going to attack.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

And you know, like you'd mentioned, you know, most people have their vision of these sexual perverts and all like that are driving around in these white vans waiting to snatch some kid off the street, which that is very uncommon. Yeah. Like you said, it's the white van is in the kid's bedroom. Right. Where they're watering. Yeah. On social media.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yeah, and it's, you know, we we we emphasize in in really all of our trainings that, you know, well, well, who is a trafficker? And, you know, well that they don't look like any something. They look like anybody because it can be a pastor, a police officer, a teacher, a principal, an uncle, a friend, a neighbor, grandpa down the street that's always sweet. I mean, it can be anybody, you know, and and we see that if you just look at the arrests on the news that are made, and of course, you know, most of the stories don't make it to the news, obviously. Um, you know, if you look at the picture, you know, well, that guy looks like you know anybody that I would see at Starbucks in front of me in line getting a coffee. Exactly, right. I mean, because you know, depravity doesn't have a physical look. Um, you know, depravity is in the heart, and that is where is what's driving the demand for uh child sex.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yeah, it would be easy if uh child predators all had that look.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Yeah, yeah, it sure would. That would make the job a lot faster, right? Uh but there is no, you know, there there's no uh profile of uh you know physical characteristics of a child uh trafficker. That's that's not uh a thing that exists.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

And you you know people are shocked sometimes to find out that their friend or relative or their spouse had been abusing. That's right. That's right. It's it's a uh it's a growing growing problem.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

It is. It uh it in my opinion it is at epidemic epidemic proportions in in the United States, that we are the number one destination for uh sex vacations in the world. Uh you know, you used to yeah, you used to hear about uh Thailand or Malaysia or somewhere uh you know like that, as that's a sex you know trafficking destination. America is number one in the world a destination for people to fly in uh for sex.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Wow, why why is that?

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Uh because the supply is significant here. There are so many people that are being trafficked, adults and children. Uh the organization is robust here. Um, you know, we we we have to get out of our mindset. You know, anytime I see on the you know on the news story or here somewhere, hey, this guy was on his computer in his home and he had you know a thousand um you know child sexual abuse material files on there and we got him. Great. I I celebrate that because that's one person that was abusing a lot of children via computer, maybe never had physical contact, but the damage is done to that child from what's happened. Right. Um, and and that's great. But when you start talking about billions and you know, a hundred billion dollars in income being generated, and we only find less than one percent of the victims, that money is much more than a hundred billion dollars. Um, you better believe it is an organized system of sex trafficking going on in the United States. It's not just that guy sitting in his house that you know happens to have a laptop and can get into a kids' gaming system chat room. It is a very organized crime in the United States.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Yeah, I think a lot of people envision that guy sitting in his room in a dark room in his underwear, drinking a beer, drinking a beer and scrugging face and all that. They picture that as the the sex pervert that's out there, but it's not. No. It's the it could be the bank executive or politician or anybody.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Anybody. Anybody. Anybody any walk of life, socioeconomic background, any type of you know, education, no education, it it it is across the board uh as far as who is doing this.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Yeah. And that's that's the big problem because, like you said, you know, there's no no way to profile somebody to go in and say, okay, that that person there is a child molester.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Yeah, and that's why we're we're passionate about protecting the kids, you know, that that we have to put uh safeguards in place to try to protect children against the efforts that we know traffickers are using. Um and so we, you know, our idea is to to build that uh security net around that child, um, and but through the help of their parents and teachers and and all of that, um, so that you know their vulnerability level gets lower instead of higher.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

That's good. That is very good. Sounds like y'all are really up front in the fight, on front lines.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Uh hopefully we're making a difference. I feel like we are, and it it it looks like we are, but we recognize that there are a lot more people needed to be involved in in the fight. And you know, I honestly some people just don't have thick enough skin to do it because you see some of the worst of the worst, and you hear some of the horror stories that you never thought existed. Um and you know, I I tell people I relate it to you know firefighters. I I I love our first responders, and they know that running into a burning house to save somebody, more than likely they're gonna get burned or some smoke inhalation too. They're gonna they're gonna get injured in doing that, but it's worth it to save that life. And so when you're involved in this fight against human trafficking, you realize you're gonna have some emotional scars and and things along the way. Um, but it it is worth it to save the life of that child or that adult or whoever it may be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Yeah. Uh it's not only the the child that suffers, it is the the protectors or the the ones who are out there fighting for them. Yeah, you know, they they carry scars too. Right. And uh, you know, they see it over and over again. And that's something that uh I've always admired law enforcement and and any kind of first responders, law enforcement or or EMTs or or whatever, you know, they see the worst of the worst. And uh, you know, they they have to take it home with them every day. Right. And uh after a while it does take a toll on them. It does. But uh thank God there's uh there's people out there that that's willing to do it.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yes, indeed. Yeah. I'm uh you know, I I have a lot of friends that are in uh law enforcement, first responders. We have some of our uh members of Bikers Against Traffic in South Carolina that are first responders and law enforcement, and so uh they're they're the true heroes. They're out there every single day risking it so that we can enjoy safety. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

And the court system, I mean, they're they're just bogged down with not only that this type of crime, but all kinds of crime. So you know, a lot of uh a lot of the stuff falls through the cracks through either a sharp uh defense attorney or or whatever, you know, pulling a little trick out of his his sack and all like that and getting the person off because of some technicality. Yeah, unfortunately so. And uh to me, you know I don't want to say what I'd like to happen to these perverts that get caught. It's uh it's not good. I think they should they should suffer. But they'll they'll never be able to suffer as much as uh their victims.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

No, no, their victims will will continue on. But as I say, you know, we we have some amazing uh line of sight to people that are being restored and have been restored and are incredibly resilient adults that are making a very positive change in the world. So we're we're uh we're grateful to be able to see that as well.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Now, do you uh I know there's different uh levels of different types of trafficking out there. You know, we we've talked mainly about sexual sex trafficking and all like that, but there's labor trafficking and and all like that.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

Do y'all uh deal in any of any of that or no, you know, the two two primary are are sex trafficking and labor trafficking, and um, you know, bikers against trafficking is is focusing on uh sex trafficking, then each chapter, which is by state, uh focus on a specific area of that battle. Um and so um our our founder, uh Doc and Rainey, their husband and wife, um, you know, as I mentioned, they were both uh trafficked as uh uh younger in life. And so their real passion is um, you know, to bring in these kids and adults uh and serve them and uh to get them the therapy and counseling and medical and all that they need uh to help them with housing and jobs and all of that. Uh, you know, when when you look at somebody that is coming out of prison and you think they don't have a car, they don't have a job, they don't have a house, they don't have any other clothes, any of that, it's very similar of coming out of the prison of being trafficked. Uh you know, they they often have nothing uh and are in absolute need of someone to come along and say, hey, we're gonna hold on to you and get you to the point where you know you can be independent. It again, and you can start making positive contributions. But that is a long uh daily effort in walking beside someone that has been through such horrors in their life.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Yeah, I I I can't even imagine the the trauma that uh someone like that has has gone through, and the not only the physical scars, but I think the mo emotional scars uh are a lot harder to uh to get over.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Uh they are yeah, I mean the emotional is is uh you know it's it's uh uh much deeper uh the physical wounds, you know, cover over, but uh the emotional impact, uh the trauma that takes place, PTSD that most of them experience is something that you know we we work hard to get them in with the right therapist and counselors to make sure they're getting the the mental health care that they need. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

And I've also heard and all that uh when one of these uh sex traffickers or perverts uh get caught and they they spend some time in prison, it's not a very pleasant time that they have. That uh the other prisoners don't take kindly to uh child molesters.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Uh it seems to be across society that uh you know they they are among the least favorite people on on the planet, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

That's good. That's that's the way it should be. And uh I hope uh when they get caught, uh their stay in uh in prison is an awful one.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

And uh many that uh prisons that are a good stay, so that that that likelihood is is probable.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

That's good. I guess there is a silver lining, so to speak, to uh to that that uh uh hopefully they they get uh a little justice, maybe some uh street justice is always good for them.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

And uh Yeah, we you know we we just uh we look to the to the survivors and you know really focusing on helping them and serving their needs. And we let the you know, we we tell people we we are not vigilantes, we don't kick indoors, we don't do any of that. We call 911. I mean, I'm president of bikers against trafficking in South Carolina. If I see something, I'm calling 911. I'm not intervening because that can tremendously damage a case. Uh, you know, that what what you do in intervening could literally be the reason that person gets off from their crime. And so we let law enforcement handle all of that. And uh, you know, our mission is is focused on um, you know, the survivors and and helping them throughout the rest of the journey of their life. And that's you know, that they they need to help.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah. And they they need uh more people like you out there helping them. And uh hopefully we can get the word out and uh help your organization to grow. That'd be great. And I'm uh I'm definitely going to uh to uh talk about um about you and your group and uh the great work that y'all do. I appreciate it, David. Yeah. Anything else you want to add?

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Uh no, I think we covered uh a lot. That was uh good overview of who we are and what we do and what the mission's all about. So I I appreciate the opportunity. Great.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Uh oh, I did want to ask one question uh about your your nickname. Tell us where you got your nickname.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Well, most people say it and they they ask me, how do you say that? It's stogue, like a stogie, like a cigar. Uh and so I'm uh I'm uh one of my primary hobbies is is cigars. And so I I love learning about cigars and smoking cigars and collecting cigars. And um, you know, probably it goes way back when my um my paternal grandfather, um, who was a Harley rider as well, uh, he rode for uh the Camden Police Department uh back in the 40s and 50s, and so um he's he smoked cigars, so I I can't picture him other than sitting in church without a cigar. I mean, he had a cigar at the breakfast table, cigar in his recliner, outside, in the car, wherever we were, he had a cigar. Um and so as a kid, you know, I thought that was cool and I wanted to smoke a cigar and smoke a cigar, so I begged and begged and begged. Finally, my dad gave me one of my granddad's cigars, thinking that I would immediately turn green and get sick, and I smoked the whole thing and asked for another one. And so that's really yeah, and then so I didn't become a cigar smoker then, it was much later as an adult. Um, but definitely enjoyed it and it it you know it's good uh, you know, just time with my son-in-laws and sitting around and enjoying that and just talking and relaxing and uh, you know, just being in community with people, and and um, you know, for for some reason uh uh a cigar just kind of causes somebody to say, well, I'm probably gonna be sitting here 45 minutes to an hour smoking this, and so why not relax and have a conversation? So it's uh it's a good culture to to to be involved in.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

Yeah. Well good. Glad to hear that. Uh yeah. Glad to hear a little bit about your family and all of that. And uh I want to thank you for uh being on the show today and uh hopefully uh wake some people up and uh bring some people uh to your group. Yeah, they can hopefully in Atlanta we'll we'll get a group started.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and they can go to um batsc.org, uh batsc.org, and they can find out information. They can contact me through that website, uh Bikers Against Trafficking SC on Facebook, and they can see what we're doing, what we're about there, and contact me there as well. And uh, you know, if they're interested, if they're in South Carolina or another state and interested in being a member, uh we can work with them there, or if they're interested in uh, you know, starting a chapter in a state that we're not in, certainly would love to have that conversation as well.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Okay, well, great. Again, thank you for taking your time and uh sharing uh what your you and your organization do. All right, yeah. Thank you, David. Hope to maybe have you on the show again sometime soon. I look forward to it. All right. Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you, David. I want to stop for a minute and mention some important sites that you should uh check out. Bikers Against Trafficking, South Carolina, Bikers Against Trafficking, main site, and on Facebook. Also, if you want to start your own chapter in your area, Bikers Against Trafficking, you can contact them through any one of these sites. That's it for our show for today. Thank you for joining in. I hope you were able to learn something today that will maybe help you understand what is going on in the world around you and allow you to be aware of the dangers to yourself and perhaps a loved one. Maybe this will inspire you to get involved in the fight to help stop human trafficking. If you suspect someone is involved in human trafficking, please contact the National Human Trafficking Hotline at 888-373-7888. Please follow me on social media and subscribe to my podcast. You can access my podcast, blogs, books, series, and submit your questions and comments at DavidJstory.com. Music by Toon Real dot com. And please remember always watch your six and others too.