SWHT Human Trafficking in the UK and Beyond with Hannah Ashwell

Episode Summary: Human Trafficking in the UK and Beyond with Hannah Ashwell

In this episode of The Secret World of Human Trafficking, host David J. Story interviews Hannah Ashwell, a UK-based therapist, PhD researcher in occupational trauma, and author of the upcoming book Quit Porn. Their discussion explores the realities of human trafficking in the United Kingdom, the growing influence of technology on exploitation, and the urgent need for public awareness and survivor support. 

Hannah explains that human trafficking in the UK is far more widespread than most people realize. She discusses the UK's National Referral Mechanism, which recorded over 19,000 suspected trafficking referrals in 2020, while emphasizing that many more victims remain hidden. Victims include both UK nationals and people trafficked from other countries, with children making up a significant percentage of identified victims. She notes that trafficking extends far beyond sexual exploitation to include forced labor, domestic servitude, agricultural work, nail salons, car washes, and other industries where organized crime can conceal victims. 

David and Hannah discuss how traffickers continuously adapt their methods, moving victims between locations to avoid detection and exploiting demand for cheap labor and commercial sex. They stress that reducing demand, increasing law enforcement resources, and improving public awareness are essential to disrupting trafficking networks. Both agree that rescuing victims is only the beginning of recovery, as survivors often require long-term psychological care, vocational training, and specialized support to rebuild their lives. 

The conversation also examines how traffickers use grooming, deception, threats, debt bondage, and family intimidation to maintain control over victims. Hannah explains that many victims willingly travel with traffickers after being promised legitimate jobs, only to have their documents confiscated and freedoms taken away upon arrival. This manipulation makes trafficking difficult to recognize because it often occurs "in plain sight." 

A significant portion of the interview focuses on technology and online exploitation. Hannah discusses proposed UK restrictions on social media use for children under sixteen and questions whether age-verification systems alone will be effective. David and Hannah warn that predators increasingly target children through social media, gaming platforms, and messaging applications rather than through traditional abduction methods. They discuss concerns surrounding platforms such as Roblox and Discord, the use of artificial intelligence to create exploitative imagery, livestreamed abuse, and the growing sophistication of online grooming tactics, including the use of automated bots. 

David also raises concerns about extremist online groups that manipulate vulnerable young people into self-harm and criminal behavior, illustrating how digital communities can normalize abuse and exploitation. Hannah compares these communities to other harmful online networks that encourage destructive behaviors through peer validation and financial incentives. 

The episode concludes with Hannah discussing her forthcoming book, Quit Porn, which examines pornography, unhealthy sexual behaviors, online exploitation, and the connections between the pornography industry and human trafficking. She explains that one chapter, titled Set the Captives Free, specifically explores trafficking in both the UK and worldwide while providing readers with resources for prevention and recovery. 

David closes by reinforcing the mission of the podcast: educating the public, increasing awareness, encouraging people to recognize warning signs, support anti-trafficking organizations, and report suspicious activity. Both guests emphasize that while human trafficking may never be completely eliminated, informed communities can make it significantly more difficult for traffickers to operate and can help save lives.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Welcome back to the secret world of human trafficking. I'm your host, David J. Story. I'm also the author of the Omega book series. And today we have a special guest. Let's go ahead and hear what they have to say. Well, we have here Hannah Ashwell. And won't you go ahead and tell us about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Thanks, David, for having me on. My name's Hannah. I live in the UK. I'm a therapist and I'm doing a PhD in occupational trauma. I'm also just finishing off a book about the pornography industry, and one of the key elements I've researched in that book is around the link between the global sex industry and human trafficking.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Okay, great, great. So tell us about the human trafficking in the UK.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

The statistics actually are really quite shocking. We have in the UK a formal reporting system called the National Referral Mechanism, which is where agencies like law enforcement, social work, child protective services, that kind of thing, can raise concerns and report any concerns they may have about somebody they believe has been trafficked, or that person may self-report and that information is handed on. And in 2024, there were over 19,000 referrals to the National Referral Mechanism. Now that's only the people that we know about. The chances are there are thousands and thousands of others who were just going undetected and slip under the radar. And one of the things we say in the UK is that trafficking and the trafficking of people is happening in plain sight.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Yes, it is. We have similar statistics here in the United States. Back in uh 2023, there was over 17,000 reported to the uh National Human Trafficking Hotline. And like you said, that's just the ones who are reported.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

I'm I'm sure the numbers are probably twice that.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Yeah, I think the statistic that's thrown around is that there's an estimate that there's another 130,000 people who are under the radar and undetected in the UK alone.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

That's that's a lot for a country your size.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

It is.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

But uh 100,000 of anywhere, even the United States, you know, that that's a a medium-sized city.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

And just to have that many people just disappearing, yeah, is is is shocking and and and scary.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Yeah. It may be that it's not necessarily people disappearing, but it's people that are maybe trafficked into the UK as well. What the statistics tell us is that in 2004, 23% of trafficked people in the UK who were were reported were UK nationals. Um, so our top number of trafficked people in and around the UK were UK nationals. The next was around, I think, 13%, and it was Vietnamese nationals who had been brought into the UK. 11% Oh no, I've got that wrong. So hang on a minute. Do that for a re-edit. So 13% of people that were bought into the UK were reported to be Albanian nationals. About 11% were thought to be Vietnamese, were reported to be Vietnamese nationals, and around 13 and around 31% were children.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Now, is that just sex uh trafficking, or is that uh including the labour, debt, domestic servitude now?

SPEAKER_02 3:58

As far as I know, we don't have any data that compartmentalizes the role that that trafficked person is undertaking in the UK. Like you said, domestic labour, agricultural labour, people trafficked to work in the sex and pornography industry.

SPEAKER_04 4:15

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Yeah, meat production, that kind of thing, slaughterhouses, nail bars, car washes. It's very easy to hide somebody in the agricultural industry because they tend to be in rural areas, but we have high streets with nail bars, vape shops, all kinds of things, and those are obvious those are often fronts for organized serious organized crime.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah, it's it's uh it's spreading, I mean, all over the world, and unfortunately, uh the United States leads the world in human trafficking.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

And that's not to be proud of.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

No. I think one of the things we see in the sex industry specifically is that it's predominantly women and they are moved around UK cities, which obviously helps evade detection. So they may be working in a brothel, which might be a nice house in a nice street, but as soon as people in the surrounding area perhaps start to raise concerns, they shut shop and just move on somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah, that's you know, catching these people is is hard because, you know, people don't want to don't want to talk about it. I I I bring this up on just about every podcast that uh I've had people just walk away when they f find out, you know, about my books. You know, I've written books, series on human trafficking, and people will just walk away. They say that I don't want to they don't want to talk about it, don't want to hear about it. And that's that's the problem.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Yeah, I absolutely I think that the assumption here very much is that it doesn't happen here. It happens in other countries.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yes, but it happens everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, there's a market for low-paid labour in the UK. We have lots and lots of roles in employment, which British people simply don't want to do. And they have to have those, you know, in s in meat slaughterhouses, in major agricultural industries, those jobs are vacant, and the only people that can often be found to take those roles on are foreign nationals, which leaves it open to exploitation. We do have guardrails in this country around sorry, obviously we have guardrails in this country to prevent this happening, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Exactly. I mean, same way with here, I mean it's it's against the law and but like you said, it the the pimps are traffickers, you know, they move around. They move their their their merchandise for lack of a better word. Uh moving from city to city, from location to location. And a lot of the the people who do business, you know, they're not going to report it.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

No. Because they move with the big a net.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Right. I mean, they're guilty. I mean, they're the they're the reason why it's thriving. I mean, if there was not a demand for servants or, you know, domestic servitude or or forced labor or s sexual needs, then there it w wouldn't be a problem.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Yeah. And obviously these people are incredibly fearful. So they're not likely to reach out for help and support themselves. They're not likely to report themselves to the authorities because they're terrified not only for their own safety, but their families may have been threatened as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And a lot of these people, as I've discussed in the past, is prominent people. I mean, just yeah, just you know, like the Epstein Files. Here that's sort of hit home over there in the UK. Yeah. But over here, you know, nothing's been done to any of the predators.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

A lot of the reasons is because some of the predators are the ones who are making the laws.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

And have, you know, money and power. So uh, you know, nothing's probably gonna happen to them. Other than maybe losing losing a title or uh having to resign their job or whatever. But as far as anybody going to jail, I doubt it's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah. In the UK, it is classed as a serious organized crime, and it does carry some quite significant penalties for this crime, but it's it's really about is there enough resources to catch these people? Because it's so easy. We do have cases every so often which are all over the media, but that's really only the tip of the iceberg.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yes, I mean it's it like you says it's just a fraction that gets caught. And a lot of times they they get off on the technicality or they serve very little time in in prison because of uh some fancy lawyer that they've hired or money that they have or their name or or or power, they'll get off. But uh, you know, the victims, those are the ones who suffer the most. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

And I it's very similar, I think, to the drug industry in the UK, where if a drug dealer is arrested and taken out of the scene, within minutes another drug um organized crime group have stepped in and will take the market. And I think it's very similar in trafficking. You can take one organized crime group out of the situation, and as soon as there's a vacancy, somebody else will step in and meet that market.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Yeah. Supply and demand.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

And I think the way that can help stop this is uh stopping the demand.

SPEAKER_04 9:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Stopping the ones the stopping the ones who are out there buying this.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Yeah. And then the other thing that we need to consider really carefully is the aftercare support for people who have been trafficked and have actually been fortunate enough to be removed from that situation of duress, but they need lots and lots of psychological support. They may still be living in fear of their lives, fear, you know, fear of what might happen to their families if they've been threatened. So it's not just a case of simply rescuing somebody. They do need that really, really strong, cohesive care around them to help them rebuild their lives and feel that they can live safely wherever they are placed after they've been rescued.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

That's what what a lot of people don't understand is okay, we've arrested this these traffickers, and they had 10 or 15 or whatever girls or boys or or whatever whoever it might be, and now they're free, and that's where a lot of people think it ends.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

No.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Uh, you know, I've I've talked a lot about, you know, the the physical injuries and harm, that eventually heals, but the emotional scars never heal.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

And these victims, these survivors, they they need help.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Yeah. And they need help, they need help from specialist agencies as well. Right. They don't just need statutory help. They need somebody that has a real knowledge of the kind of trauma that they're carrying after the experience that they've lived.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Exactly. I interviewed this one lady that she was trafficked once when she was young, and that's all she knew during her young adult life. And then once she was freed and put and said, Okay, you're free now, she didn't know what to do. No. She had she had no job skills. She didn't know how to provide for herself. The only way she knew how to put food back on the table and take care of herself was to go back into prostitution.

SPEAKER_03 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

And she said, you know, going to work at McDonald's, making minimum wage or whatever didn't cut it. She said that she could go out and find a John and turn a couple tricks and make, you know, three, four hundred dollars a night.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

And and at the time there was nobody or no one to help her work herself back into society.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Where she can get a normal job. And she actually became an advocate.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Really?

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Yes. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

So I mean, we are very fortunate here in the UK that there are some really, really good, very committed, voluntary organisations and religious organizations that work alongside trafficked people and, you know, really support them long term to help them re you know get reintroduced back into society and live wholesome lives and help them work through the the trauma that they've gone through. But you know, that's that's only a small part of it. There are so many thousands of people and there are so few organizations doing this. And they are doing a phenomenal job. But when you look at the when you look at the data and the the enormity of the scale, it's just not enough to meet the demand of those people who need the support.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah, and they need volunteers, they need help, they need money.

SPEAKER_03 13:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

And that's where I you know I talk about, you know, if everybody needs to help somehow. And if you if you're not in law enforcement, you're not out there knocking the, you know, breaking the doors down, rescuing people, you're just an average person like myself. You can do something. Yeah, I you know, I wrote a wrote a book. Not everybody can do that. Yeah, I started this podcast. Not ever that's not for everybody, but you can always volunteer your time. You know, give ten ten dollars a month to uh a local organization that is out there helping, that advocates and all like that. You can do that. And the more people who get involved in some shape, form, or fashion, the the better. And the sooner that we'll be able to sta stamp out this cancer. I don't know if it will ever be totally eliminated. I doubt it, but maybe we can cut it down or or slow it down.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

And you're absolutely right with those suggestions. You know, we can all play a part. But one of the things that we can all do, regardless of our financial situation and those kinds of things, is really having an awareness of what's going on around us. Car washes, nail bars. You know, we may come across people in our day-to-day lives who are living in the most extremely horrific conditions under duress and are work have been trafficked either into the UK or around the UK for financial gain for somebody who's controlling them. And our awareness and our education can play a key role in in the situation changing for those people.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

That's what I try to do through this podcast is to bring education and awareness to people. I I tell people all the time, I said, I'm not an expert on human trafficking. I'm not. But what I try to do is bring experts onto the show, like yourself and and like uh people who work in the the government, other advocates, rescuers or whatever, you know, former survivors or current survivors, I should say, to bring knowledge and hopefully, you know, make people aware of what's going on. And even my books, since they are you know fiction, I I try to bring true life situations and examples. So that's the key, I think, for the average person is to be aware of your surroundings, be it be aware of what's going on, be on the lookout for it.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

If you see something, say something.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Yeah. And actually not hold that assumption that it only happens in big cities or it only happens in other countries. We tend to think very much that certain things that we may maybe don't want to accept don't happen here. They only happened in Thailand or they only happen in the States and things like that. But what the data and the evidence tells us is that it's happening everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

It used to be, you know, Thailand and places like that, but now it's places like the UK, the United States, the the more uh influential countries because you know the traffickers are going where the money is.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Yeah, absolutely. They don't have any kind of loyalty to a particular crime. They will, you know, these people are commodities for them, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Mm-hmm. They are. It's they're they're subhuman to them.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

And you know, a lot of times they use drugs to keep them in line.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Keep them keep them doped up and create creating that dependency as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

And actually one of the things we find here is that there's an additional stigma if people have been trafficked for the per for sexual purposes, because that stigma carries more than somebody who may have been trafficked to work in an agricultural setting, because they there's that victim-blaming element of they feel that they will be treated poorly because of the sex industry connection. They're not they they wouldn't have the same sympathy, for instance, as somebody who'd been trafficked for another purpose.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

And you know, the you know, the common comment that a lot of people have is why didn't you just leave?

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Yeah. I don't think people really understand the complexity of the human trafficking trade and the fact that these people are terrified for their lives and potentially their families' lives, which what is what is behind making them so compliant.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Exactly. I mean that you know they they have that over you know, holding it over their head saying if you leave, then we'll go after your family.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

And we'll eliminate your family. So, you know.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

And if you look at, for instance, the grooming that goes on to be able to get those people to potentially agree to go somewhere, we assume a lot of the time that people are being bundled into the back of big trucks and moved between countries. And that does go on, but we also have people who willingly get on a plane with somebody who has groomed them into believing that they're going to get them a job in the leisure industry or the catering industry or modelling industry, and those people come willingly, they come into UK airports on a daily basis, willingly, so it doesn't look like they're being trafficked into the country. So again, it's happening in plain sight, and it's not until they arrive in the country with their captors, their passports are taken away, their connection to their friends and family is removed from them, and they're completely isolated and they don't have a choice in the situation that they're in. But because they agreed to come willingly, it looks like they're complicit in the whole situation. And maybe they were.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

And, you know, there was sexual predators back then. Uh, you know, this is nothing nothing new, but it it's growing. But back then, you know, you you always heard rumors of the the white band driving around, you know, the the playgrounds. I'm sure y'all yeah had those things back over in the UK.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

And you know, some guy with a puppy dog, oh come pet pet my puppy and all like that, and they snatched the child and all that. That doesn't happen anymore. I mean, I'm not saying it doesn't happen anywhere, but yeah, now the predators have gotten smart, they've gotten better tools. They've got the internet now and social media. And you know, we were talking b before uh we started about what the UK is is about to do. Tell us about what they're gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

The um the UK Prime Minister Sir Kirstama announced uh recently that uh the UK were going to ban social media for under 16s. Now it's an interesting move. Australia did it, I think, at the end of 2025. So we're still waiting to see the you know what's happened as a result of that. Is it is it successful? And it is a good move on the on the part of the government. But here in the UK, it's illegal for children under 18 to drink alcohol, to buy alcohol, to smoke, uh to bought to buy cigarettes or to buy vapes or to buy weapons of any description. And yet we routinely see children here drinking, vaping, smoking, and a proportion of knife crime and and violence involving weapons is committed by children on other children. And as a parent myself, it's not the government's responsibility to protect my child, it's my responsibility. So it's exactly small progress. But as parents, we can't just go, well, it's fine, the government are going to do it. And children are incredibly clever, and these devices, if your child has an internet-enabled devices, device, they will find a way around it. And you know, like you've alluded to, and and we had this discussion earlier, there are more predators behind a screen than there are lurking in playgrounds and on street corners.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

How are they gonna stop a child that's under 16 from from getting on social media? I mean.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

I think it will be very similar to Australia, where they are potentially expected to upload some formal identification, you know, passport, driving license, that kind of thing to verify that so there will be an age verification step. But you know, we we had reported in the UK press over the last couple of years there were 12 and 14 year olds opening fans on a only so if 12-year-olds can open an OnlyFans account, it clearly isn't working.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

No, it's not. And I've been on sites where it says, you know, you must be uh 18 or or whatever, and click to verify that you're 18 or put in your your your date of birth. It's like, how is that gonna stop some 14 or 13 year old? They're just gonna say, okay, you know, this is how old I have to be. I'll just put in that birth date and and I'll just check on the box saying, Yes, I'm I'm an adult.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

And that that's that's not gonna stop anybody.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

No, no. And one of the things that we're seeing here is, like I said earlier, there are high street storefronts, high street stores like vape stores, convenience stores, small grocery stores that are actually fronts for serious and organised crime. So they're using those for the purpose of money laundering. There's been a story in the UK press today about younger children being groomed and given vapes that have then got psychoactive substances in them, so the child then becomes dependent on the vape and therefore builds that connection to a person who is clearly doing it for predatory reasons. You know, the world is so dangerous now, and a large proportion of that is because of the digital age.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Exactly. And there there's I talk about you know the predators are not out on the street. They're in your children's bedroom.

SPEAKER_04 23:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

They're on their their laptop, they're on their cell phone, they're in their games, they're they're where your children are. And you know, Facebook, uh, you know, TikTok are a lot of these games, which I don't even know. I mean, I'm at my age, you know, I I had Pac-Man and stuff like that games, but now a lot of these games, if you know people talk about I I I've have no clue about about 'em.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

But somebody told me actually yesterday it was a meeting I had with somebody from law enforcement saying that the biggest platform used by people to predate on children is Roblox. I don't know anything about it. I don't know anything about it apart from the fact I wouldn't let my children have it. But he was saying that the evidence is suggesting that that is the number one platform.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

I've heard Discord is another one that Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

That came up actually in conversation as well. Discord. I don't know what it is, but I wouldn't let my children have it.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Yeah. I th I think I need to do some investigating on those sites and just learn a little bit about myself on what these are because it's, you know, they keep coming up.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

And uh just anytime I ask a guest about, you know, websites, those two are always at the top of the list.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

Yeah. And I think the other thing that we need to remember is people who are working in these criminal networks are incredibly clever. You know, they evade detection, they have systems in place, they know what they're doing, and that it's easy for them to evade evade detection.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Right. And they may be in some country that doesn't have any strict laws, and they're you know, they're talking to this teenage girl, whatever, 14-year-old, and trying to get her, you know, working with her, which it may take weeks or months to the the groom to get get her to get on the plane and travel to them. And she's she's trapped at that point.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yeah. Yeah. I heard something also something very interesting that came up yesterday was that some people who are doing this kind of predatory behavior with children and young people are actually using bots so that they can send out this communication en masse and then just focus in on the children who are responding to them. So it's it's working smarter, not harder, but in a criminal way.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

I hadn't heard that one. That that's that's interesting and scary too. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

It's it's very difficult, I think, to keep up with actually what's really going on.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Mm-hmm. It is. Do you are you familiar over there with a group called 764?

SPEAKER_02 26:39

No, what's that?

SPEAKER_00 26:40

This is a group that started, I just found out about them a couple months ago. They actually started in Texas by a group of teenagers. And they're they're basically a satanic group. And okay. And they get on the internet and groom their victims to do whatever they want to. And it as sort of a game to them. They'll actually get the their victims to do self-mutilation. Right. Could commit suicide or even murder.

SPEAKER_04 27:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

And uh it's it's it's a growing, they're they're uh worldwide now. And it it started by some teenagers back during COVID. They were some one of them were bored, and they say, Let me see if I can coerce somebody to do whatever. And it's grown for them. They have competition.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Right. Um and I think those those kinds of very, very dangerous communities, what that behavior does when they've got other people doing it with them is it validates it. Nobody's stepping in and saying, actually, this is really wrong. They're all supporting and encouraging each other. Uh, and I liken it very much to there are these groups set up for people who are experiencing anorexia, and the goal is to encourage each other to take it a step further, to starve yourself more. Okay, you ate an apple today, see if you can eat half an apple tomorrow. And instead of encouraging and supporting somebody to get the help they need, it validates the very, very damaging behavior.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

The humans can be very sick, unfortunately. I mean, we're the only species that goes out there and and preys on itself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

And and actually, you know, a lot of the the attraction of this, partly it's uh it's ego related, but obviously these platforms can be monetized now. So you can be getting people to tip live, you can get people to donate, you can get people to direct and say, This is what I want you to do to this person for money, particularly when it comes to live streaming of abuse as well, which is another thing now. You know, the sex industry is more interactive than it's ever been. It's no longer a static image on a screen or in a magazine. So the it's the monetization as well that is really impacting the enormity of it.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yeah, I mean, these these people can get online and strip or or do whatever and get paid instantly. And you know, they can make make some good money.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Yeah. Well, no, it is the cap it's the captors making good money, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Exactly. Yeah. I stand corrected. Yeah, it's the captives who who are making the money. The the victims are not making anything. And that's what one of the ladies told me that, you know, even though she brought in five, six hundred dollars a night, she didn't see any of the money.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

No.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

They did she said they did pay them a little bit, but she had to pay it back. She had to pay for the her food and her drugs that that they you know got her hooked on. Yeah. So, you know, they they give her an allowance, but she'd had to spend that allowance back to her captives.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

And very often that kind of modus offerandi of keeping them in debt obviously reinforces that feeling of fear. You owe them something. So you have to work to pay off what you owe. And and that feeds into the whole situation as well.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Yeah. It's not only a physical threat, it's the emotional threats also. Tell me about your book.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

So my book is called Quit Porn, and it is, I believe, the most comprehensive book about pornography that's been written for a wide market. So most books about pornography are written by clinicians for other clinicians and are very dry, very academic, or very moralistic. And my book is written so that anybody can pick it up and read it and understand it. And each chapter is a standalone, almost like a self-help book. So you don't have to read the whole book from cover to cover. It covers everything from harmful sexual behaviors in children and young people, unhealthy sexual behaviours in adults, illegal online sexual behaviours in adults, and each chapter has QR codes and web links, signposting people to specialist services that can help them before the situation gets any worse. It's been quite a big thing to write. I didn't anticipate it was going to be over a hundred thousand words long, but it is.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Very good.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

I understand it's not out yet.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

No, it's hopefully um out the first week in August. The print copy will only be available in the UK, Northern Ireland, and the Republic of Ireland, but the ebook and audiobook are available worldwide through Amazon, Spotify, and the Audible. Yeah. And the chapter on trafficking is called Set the Captives Free, and it really lifts the lid on the the culture of human trafficking on a worldwide scale, but actually also in the UK, because it was really important for me to get across that point really strongly that this doesn't just go on in other countries, it's happening everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Yeah. A lot of people don't want to admit it's happening in their own backyard or even in their family.

SPEAKER_04 32:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

A lot of times, you know, it's it's in your family, and it may be a niece or nephew or or whatever that's uh being trafficked and you don't know it. And because the trafficker could be the parent.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

And that's that's one of the hard hard things is the the family members who are being trafficked because you know, no one's gonna talk about it. Even if you find out that your your spouse or whatever has been taken advantage, a lot of people will not turn that person in.

SPEAKER_03 33:11

No.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

And it just perpetuates things. And you know, these adults who have children and are on drugs, you know, using their their children as a commodity.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

And when we look at things like technology assisted child sexual abuse, where people are, you know, abusing their children and using technology to stream it so that they can monetize from the content. We're gonna have we're gonna have a generation of really, really damaged adults who have had these experiences, and at the moment there's so little help available. I think we aren't anticipating the seriousness of this in the future. At the moment in the UK, we have a huge number of people who have mental health problems, anxiety, depression, who are living on welfare, who aren't earning money, and we're not looking at the bigger picture of if we know that technology-assisted child sexual abuse is as widespread as it is now, what are we doing? What infrastructure are we putting in place to support those people as they grow into adulthood and to prevent those offenses being recommitted by those people?

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Exactly. And you know, with the growing uh interest in AI, that's another another issue where you know people are creating their own uh victim.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

And I've heard where, you know, a person could just take a picture off the internet off of say Facebook or take a photograph and then uh put their the child's head on another victim, perhaps a a a victim who's nude.

SPEAKER_04 34:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Yeah and then have fantasies about your child even though you have no idea. And that photo could be sold and and passed around and then come to find out, you know, that uh your child supposedly was had been posing nude, but they had no no clue about it.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Yeah, yeah. I think we are massively underestimating the scale of these kinds of offenses.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Mm-hmm. And it's it's not gonna stop there. No, no. I mean, as soon as, you know, a law enforcement or whoever comes up with some way to stop it, they just go around it.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Yeah. So I I don't I don't know what the answer is.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

No.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

And I think a lot of it is around education. It's not sensible to put photos of your children online, even on your private Facebook page. Children need to be educated educated about online harms, but equally, parents and adults need to be educated about judging how appropriate it is to allow their children to have internet enabled devices.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Exactly. I I agree. And thankfully, my my two boys, internet really wasn't around when they grew up. Yeah. They're adults now and they have they have children. So I'm I'm hoping that uh, you know, they're taking the the necessary steps to protect their children, my grandchildren.

SPEAKER_03 36:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

And uh because, you know, the dangers are there.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

And it's it's going to continue to grow until something's done, and what that is, I have no idea. I don't think anybody right now has a good answer.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

No.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

It's like the only thing we can do now is at the moment is to educate people.

SPEAKER_04 36:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

And you know, bring bring the light what's going on out there, and hopefully just like cockroaches, you know, you shine light on the cockroaches and they scatter. And uh that's what we need to do with the uh the human trafficking industry is shine a light on it. But unfortunately, those those cockroaches, uh, they just go somewhere else and start up again. And but I hope if we keep enough pressure on them, maybe some of them will find something else to do. And uh if we save one or two children, I'm you know, that's that's payment for me. I'm not doing any of this for money or fame. I'm doing it to hopefully my if I can save one child, I'm I consider that success.

SPEAKER_04 37:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

I had somebody say something about I should charge or or it's like I'm not in it for the money. I'm in it to hopefully save a child.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Yeah. And I think raising raising aware raising awareness is so important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yes, it is. And I think that's that's where a lot of it starts is awareness. And if enough where awareness is out there, then maybe more and more people will step forward.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

Yeah. And it will make it harder for the people who are the perpetrators of these crimes as well. At the moment, the reason they get away with it is because that it's so undetectable. Whereas I think if there was more awareness of this this kind of crime, the kinds of things to look out for, and the kinds of things that we should be suspicious of or to report to law enforcement or statutory services or child protective services, it would make it harder for them.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Exactly. Exactly. And that's what people like yourself are out there doing is is trying to make people aware through books, through podcasts, through through whatever, whatever you can, whatever you're you're capable of, whatever you're you feel that you you can do. And yeah, so anything else you want to add before before we go or I'm just going to have a quick look on my notes.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

Oh no, I don't think so. I think I've cut I think we've all.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Okay. Well good. Well, I appreciate you being on the show.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

And keep me posted on your book.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

I will, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Let me know when it's out, and I'll try to get the word out to everybody. And again, it's gonna be on Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

And the n the name of the book again is Quit Porn. Quit porn?

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Yeah, quit porn.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

All right. Well, I appreciate you being on.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Thank you so much for having me, David.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

It's been a pleasure, and good luck over there in the UK.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Thank you very much, and likewise to you as well.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Bye.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Well, that's it for our show for today. Hope you learned something that will perhaps uh protect uh you and a family member. Follow me on Facebook. Go to my website, davidjstory.com, to learn more about the Omega Book Series, my podcast, and my blogs. And always remember, always watch your six and others too.