Ep.12 Reclaiming the Narrative: Nhlanhla Banda on Resilience After Workplace Violation

Nhlanhla Banda built a formidable career as a High Court attorney and corporate legal counsel. But her path took a turn after an incredibly difficult experience involving sexual harassment and unfair perceptions. Now, she is on a mission to create safe spaces for women. We discuss how she is "reclaiming her narrative" through her firm, Justice Edge, and her advice for women to be "pillars of strength" for one another to resist unfair treatment.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello everyone and welcome to the WeWin Podcast powered by Accelerate Her Africa. You are so welcome to today's episode because you are in for a treat. So before I introduce you to our next guest, I want to ask you a question. What does it look like when a lawyer leads, not just with legal expertise, but with grace, purpose, and a fierce commitment to protecting women? Hmm, think on that. Today's guest is Miss Banda. She's the managing director of Justice Edge Legal Consultants International. She's a keynote speaker, mentor, and the founder of Race for Success. Miss Banda doesn't just practice law. She delivers justice with an edge and excellence with impact. But what sets her apart is this. She leads with a human touch and an unwavering commitment to creating safe spaces for women in the workplace and eliminating sexual harassment. This conversation is about justice, leadership, and what it means to build a legacy that truly transforms lives, especially for women. I'm so excited to introduce you to Miss Banda. Hi, Miss Banda. It's such a pleasure to have you here with us today.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Thank you so much. I'm so honored to be here and to just share my story that it will impact and inspire your listeners all over the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Awesome. Miss Banda, you spent over a decade at Paddy Incorporated Attorneys practicing as an attorney for the High Court. Can you talk about the kind of lawyer that decade forged you into? What were the key skills you built in those early years?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

So my journey at Biden Corporated began when I was very young and eager to learn. And you know, when you are young, you think success actually comes overnight. And it actually took me 10 years to be a well-rounded practitioner with experience across litigation, commercial, labor, and constitutional law. And what I found that in these 10 years, I have built and forged such resilience to shape my advocacy. I used to be a very shy girl, but through the experience, you know, it just taught me how to listen to what clients want and to act in their best interest and to just also cultivate and just define my values after going through these 10 years, which has molded my character and what I am right now.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

That sounds awesome. I just love the fact that you said the resilience that you developed shaped your advocacy, and it's all about protecting your client's best interest. So after that long tenure, you made a significant pivot, moving in-house to become a legal counsel for the mining company and Dalamore resources. What was the biggest mindset shift you had to make when you moved from serving many clients to suddenly having only one? But being involved in every aspect of its complex business.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

So moving in-house was a complete mindset shift because when you are in practice, it's court every day. You're always solving problems on the go. I used to be in the litigation department where we were just only doing evictions. So if someone goes and trespasses on your property, we will just run to court, get interdicts, and get the person out and evicted. So now it was now a mindset when I went into in-house counsel. You know, now you are part of the business. You know, you are part and advising on the risk and you're mitigating all legal strategies for the business to grow. So it was just a different mindset just to where I was, you know, actively in court, where now I'm advising board members and um helping them, you know, to make their business decision based on transactions that will come on the table, based on the clients that they want to, you know, engage with. I will be the center of that.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

That shows that your firm must have had a lot of uh respect for your capabilities to have that sudden agility to move from being the sort of person that was showing up in court versus someone who's now operating from within the client's um context and helping them in that way.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Yes. Um I think because of my 10-year experience in the legal field, so they were like, no, no, we can trust your instincts, trust your skills to be able now to advise us on these big transactions. Also, the mining industry, we go through a lot of buying of assets. So when we have to buy a mine, I need to do the due diligence of that asset to see whether are there minerals that they can mine? Is the mine to be taking over? Can it yield? Because it was a coal mine. So are they uh coal mine resources that are still left that we can extract to make the business profitable?

SPEAKER_00 5:36

You mentioned the keyword there, trust, and you had to be trusted in order to make these decisions for them. So your work in mining wasn't just about corporate law, it involved engaging with communities and traditional authorities. This sounds like the work of a diplomat as much as a lawyer. What is the art of building trust between a large corporation and a local community whose future is at stake?

SPEAKER_01 6:04

You know, when you deal with communities, because also previously when I was working for Biden Corporated, I was at the forefront of leading a project where the city of Johannesburg at the time was building houses for the underprivileged community. And so I was in the forefront of those negotiations. And what you need to appreciate about the community is that they love to be engaged. They respect you when you listen as they speak. You shouldn't just go there just to tick a box of compliance, but you know, you build trust when their voices are heard and their promises that you keep. That's when the trust is built between the community and either the mine or the municipality, and it just bridges that gap. So ours, the bridge between the community and the big business. You know, it's like a David and Goliath, and you need a middle person just to try just to mitigate, because at the same time, the community can get hostile. So you need someone that can speak their language, you know, and calm them down. At the same time, also the businessman wants to, you know, just to carry on with their business and just bringing them both makes it a mutual respect and of empowerment as well. Because the community wants to be empowered. So when the big guy as a mining company comes into the territory, you know, they they want to be seen and to be heard and to be given opportunities. So now what we do as a mine, we would hire these communities to work. For example, we could give them out transportation trucks to actually take the coal to the different mine pits. So that's how we engage with the communities, how we build the trust by one-on-one understanding.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Did you find yourself being invested into these communities? So having a sense of understanding and a little bit more than empathy as you try to represent their interest?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yes, you have to have a lot of empathy for the community and just understand that they are from a poverty-stricken area and they're not plenty of jobs, um, employment. So they are looking up to either the mining company or, you know, the city of Johannesburg as a municipality, you know, just to give them opportunities to be able to make a living for themselves, make a living for their family.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Totally understandable. So it's clear you built a formidable career, which makes the decision to leave that path and start your own firm, a monumental one. So we understand that this transition came at the end of an incredibly difficult personal and professional experience. So if you're comfortable, can you share the story of what ultimately catalyzed your decision to leave and build a new table for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Yes, so um, the legal industry, you know, as many know it, is still even now very male-dominated, you know. So for women to rise, we often are forced into a corner where we have to, you know, compromise our values and boundaries and even dignity. In the legal industry, women face a lot of types of forms of discrimination, even sexual harassment and being objectified, you know, even though you have earned your place and your merits to be in the legal field and your hard work, you should actually speak more instead of being objectified. I'm a survivor of sexual harassment in the workplace, and my decision to have left that environment and to start my own consultancy firm is because I wanted to change that narrative that, you know what, as female, we shouldn't, you know, succumb and remain silent when we are, you know, sexually harassed in the workplace or people are intimidated by our craft and our skill, you know. So the the transition for me to go into my own consultancy is to say to women that, you know, you can do it. You don't have to, you know, be in an environment, you know, that will undermine you or just only objectify you. But as a woman, you can also rise and have your own law firm and succeed in it, and also have uh clients that actually respect you for being professional and not objectify you as a woman.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

That is so moving. So I'm gonna push you a little bit further, Miss Banda, so that our listeners can appreciate the context. Can you share details of that experience that ignited your passion to create a safe space for women?

SPEAKER_01 10:43

So, as I mentioned that I'm a survivor of sexual harassment, my story begins where I was actually having a meeting with a colleague of ours. He is from a different law firm. He had his own practice, and so we were working together in a case for divorce, and he was running that divorce practice. So then what happened is that we had a meeting because our client was gonna be coming afterwards. So we had a meeting to plan, to strategyze, and to, you know, just to um see how we can resolve this divorce matter. And then it happened that we had the meeting with the client, that you know, it was good. We were able, you know, to advise our client if you want to go through this divorce, these are the avenues um you should take. Um, you you will, you know, get 50% of your assets because you guys are married and coming to a property. So that was the background. The client was happy with our advice, and then the client left. So then now it was just me and this colleague in the room now. So then the colleague was starting to compliment me overly. He's like, Oh my goodness, you were so good. I mean, how you were negotiating with the client and you know, showing him the options of the divorce match and how we can, you know, try to get the best results for him. And now the meeting is finished. Now I need to leave. So now I'm there opening the door, right? And then now he bangs the door behind me. He's like, no, no, no, don't leave. You and I still need to chat a bit. I'm like, no, but uh, the meeting is finished. Why am I chatting with you anymore? Then he lifts me up, he started lifting me up. Now I'm like, no, this is unappropriate. Please don't touch me in that way. Then he starts to fill me up, and I was like, no, I started to scream because I'm like, this is so uncomfortable. Why are you touching me? This is my this is my body. And then I had to rush out the room and run out to the bathroom crying because now I'm being sexually harassed by a colleague which we were working in a case together. I I even had to also call my boss and I'm like, boss, I don't want to work with this guy anymore. Because after this meeting, now he was objectifying me. You know, what's not off as a present meeting and a compliment of how I did. Now he thought he had the right to objectify me and now fill me up. And I remember when when I was going to my boss, he didn't fight because he's a male as well. He he didn't find anything wrong with it. She's like, Oh, what what did you do? How how did you did you lure him? Did you and I was like, wow, sure, wow, okay, so it's so it it's normal. It's it's normal for for for men to to think this is okay. And from that day, I I'm glad I I spoke up to my boss, and then this guy called me. He's like, no, I'm so sorry, I don't know what happened, I just I just lost control. I'm like, he just lost control. Yeah. After that, there was just many other incidences, and I just saw a same pattern. It was always these male advocates, these male colleagues, these male lawyers that I that I used to, you know, work with that had the same perception that they they all thought it was okay. Only when I'm like, no, it's not. They're like, oh, oh, oh, sorry. I I thought this is where we were going. I'm like, no, what gave you the impression that this is where it was going? Because we are here doing work. So I feel that in the workplace, women are silenced as well. Because if it's your boss, you can't say, because I mean they they pay your salary. So if you call him out, now you're scared that you might lose your job. And luckily, in my case, I did have to stand up for myself. I'm like, no, this stops today. This stops right now. This is not gonna happen to me ever again. I'm stopping this narrative. I won't allow to be objectified. I don't care if you can't control your feelings, but it it's it's not right at all.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Oh my goodness, that is so powerful. Uh, how you've described what happened to you. Um psychologically, this must have had an impact on you, right? How did you get from going through this experience, this mindset of I am just here to be objectified, to actually moving out and thinking, no more, I will not accept this. I set these boundaries today. How did you do that?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah, so for me, emotionally it was traumatizing because it was not the first incident. So emotionally, as a woman, you feel like, do you attract this kind of behavior? You feel also confused because you like, but we were working. What gave you that idea? And it also took me time to understand that it was not me. You know, because most of the time you you blame yourself as a woman dealing with sexual harassment, you feel like maybe I should keep my distance, maybe I I should not talk more in meetings. Um, maybe if I remain silent and remain in my corner because I'm too outspoken. So maybe that's what's attracting these men to me. Literally every meeting, I would remain silent because I was so scared that it will happen again. So that psychological torment, because you keep on second guessing myself. I was always second guessing myself in every meeting. I'm like, am I okay? Today I'm wearing a long dress, today I'm wearing long sleeves, I'm I'm gonna be in one corner, I won't say much, you know, and then I'll immediately leave and not engage. That's the life I lived for a long time. For a very long time, I was just silent and not engaging at all. But I broke the silence when I was like, no, I'm not me anymore. I actually lost myself in this process because I was not being authentic to myself. You know, I had to go through counseling. Counseling is so important for someone else just to realign you to yourself, realign you to your purpose, realign you to your voice. I had lost my voice. So the process from a psychological perspective into transitioning now, into being confident, it took it take counseling. It took me to redefine myself and redefine, you know, my voice.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

And it definitely took a lot of courage. Wow, okay. So that experience is not just a professional challenge, it's a profound one, especially having to deal with the navigating the situation where the perception was so unfairly placed on you. How did you protect your spirit and belief in yourself during what must have been an incredibly isolating time?

SPEAKER_01 17:55

So for me, what has anchored me, it's my faith. I had to just remind myself that I am worth so much more than my external appearance. And I had to surround myself with other women that have gone through such sexual harassment and I'm being objectified in the workplace. And I was like, we need to speak out about this. You know, I had to have mentors, I had to have counseling, you know, and family members to make me realize that that's not my fault. Sometimes as a woman, you think, oh, maybe it's the way I dressed, or maybe it's the way I spoke to my colleague. Maybe they had the wrong idea. And we actually, most of the time, as women, we blame ourselves and we don't correct the wrong and we don't address, you know, the perpetrator, be like, no, it is you or your professional ideas that made you act this way. It's not my fault, it's not the way I dressed, it's not the way I spoke. Because at all times, most women, we are always professional, but men have this thing, you know, that they can easily just objectify us and it's okay. And I just came to say that it is not okay to be objectified and be sexually harassed in the workplace or anywhere else, you know. And I started slowly allowing myself to heal and to reflect and to rebuild my confidence because what it does is that sexual harassment, you know, strips away your confidence, you know, it just strips away your voice and it just strips away your strength. But I had to be resilient and you know just break the silence. I just had to redefine myself that no, I cannot be defined by my past, I cannot be defined by what men did to me. But I need to stand my ground and be who I am and who God has created me to be.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Absolutely. Sexual harassment is not okay. So, what would you say to women who may not be the primary target but see other women in their organization being sexually harassed? What would you tell them about the role they can play to support these women and be pillars of strength to help them resist this unfair treatment?

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Yes, I feel that it's important, especially in the workplace, for us women to support each other because I feel that we all remain silent or we look the other way oftentimes because number one, we want to get involved. You're scared that if you do get involved, you might be the one who's fired, or you can compromise your working relationship with your boss or with your seniors or with your supervisors. So I feel that once we women advocate and be like, this is wrong to any woman, whether they're senior, whether they're junior, you know, whatever level that they are, if we as women can stand up and be like, no, this is wrong and it should not continue or be a thing in our workplace, I think that will help to change the narrative. It'll be able, you know, for us to come together as women and support each other and be like, this is wrong and it should not carry on. We should now speak out and speak up about our experiences, you know, and not try to hide and pretend everything is normal. Because with the males, for them it's normal. They they move on so quickly, they even forget that, oh, oh, I done it to Banda, oh now tomorrow is uh to Shirley, the next day it's someone else. So we we have to, as women, come together and support each other through this process of sexual harassment in the workplace, it has to stop. It has to stop, and our voices need to be need to be heard collectively. So I feel that if it's one person, um like, oh, but Shirley, but you were being friendly to the boss, you know how people can perceive it. Because I was victimized because people thought that I brought it upon myself because I was the only one experiencing it. Because, like, oh no, but the boss is attracted to you, but no, but you the favorite, but that's why it happened to you. I feel that as women, we we need to help each other through this process to stop this um harassment in the workplace.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

You know, what you just said just brought a scripture to my mind. Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A court of three strands is not. Quickly broken. And that's from Ecclesiastes 4:12. Just thought I'll put that out there. Okay, you named your new firm Justice Edge Legal Consultants. That word justice feels incredibly powerful in this context. Was the act of founding your own company on your own terms a way of creating a form of justice for yourself and reclaiming your narrative?

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Absolutely, absolutely. Um, the name Justice Edge really is a deep symbolic to me. It's a commitment of justice that you know what, as women coming from a background where it's male-dominated and we are treated unfairly, we won't even, sometimes it was even hard to get briefs as female because we had to go through a system of getting our brief from a male colleague. And then for me, when I named my firm Justice Edge, it's just an edge, you know, just conveys the courage. Because for me, if you would see the symbol of my logo, it's a sword and two balances, meaning that the sword it symbolizes courage to stand up for the injustices that are done to vulnerable people. It can be women, it can be children, it can be clients that are marginalized. But justice is a name that actually resounds so dearly to me.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

I love that that cuts so deep. Okay, let's talk about Justice Edge today. Now that you're a founder and a managing director, what is your mission? What kind of culture are you intentionally creating for your clients and anyone who works with you?

SPEAKER_01 23:44

So, Justice Edge is founded to provide legal solutions with excellence. I emphasize excellence in my firm and integrity as well, and we deliver high-quality service for both corporate, big clients, and individual clients, and we're also creating a culture of empowerment, especially for young professionals. Having uh young professionals come up to me for mentorship who are in the legal space, who have said to me, you know, I'm doing my LLB, I'm doing my legal degree, and law, I've just finished. Some of them have just finished, and like, can we just be under you just to learn from you? You know, so I'm creating the culture of women in law, you know, of transparency, of diligence, and you know, compassion. So our firm just treats every client as important.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

That sounds great. And I heard you mention the culture of empowerment. But what are the specific measures your organization has in place now to protect women, you know, those going to court, those who have to interface with male colleagues or clients. How exactly are you protecting them or providing a safe space for them to feel empowered to do their jobs properly?

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Yes, so what measures I've put in place is that when we go to meetings, when we go to court, there's two or three or more of us. These things happen when you are alone with the guy, and they always choose uh a place where they know that you are alone and the doors are closed and the boardroom is dark. That's when they actually target you. Because I I don't know if they plan it, I don't know. But now there's supposed to be three or more of us going into a meeting, coming out, going to court so that we protect each other. Yeah, it happens when when you're alone. It really does happen when you're alone and you think you are you are safe. The boardrooms have to be transparent now. Yeah, I've seen a lot of clients now that we go to their boardrooms, they are transparent so that people can see what's going on if they pass by.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Yeah. Experience fuels innovation and problem solving. That's what I have to say about that. Okay, so your profile also describes you as a mentor. Given everything you've navigated, the professional pivots and the profound personal challenges, what is the most important lesson you now try to impart on the next generation of young women entering the legal profession?

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Yes, so I have an NPO called Grace for Success, where I mentor young girls. I've also adopted an orphanage as well. I also mentor the young girls who are between the ages from 16 to 18, and then also young girls who are in university and starting their law career. So, what I usually tell them is that you belong in every room that you walk in. And then that they should not allow their background or circumstances to limit them or intimidate them, you know, that they should be authentic in their approach. And it's about not perfection, but it's about purpose, finding purpose and persevering through adversities and just having integrity. And even if you fail and you fall, it's how you rise as a professional and also that you are enough. I cannot stress that because sometimes as women we feel that we have to be in a certain way, we have to conform to the norms. And I'm like, no, you are enough just the way you are, and you can lead with both strength and with grace. So that's what I usually tell the girls that I mentor.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yeah, I love that seed you're planting, the seed of self-worth and understanding that they are enough, especially in young women. Looking forward, as a founder who is now shaping a part of the legal industry yourself, what is the one change you hope to see in the culture of law firms in South Africa over the next decade?

SPEAKER_01 27:47

That especially for women, I feel like women do not have enough opportunities to thrive in the legal industry. For example, in advocacy, as well, when we are given briefs, women are less likely to get uh legal briefs from clients, uh, especially from companies, from huge companies, they usually prefer the the men because I don't know if they don't have confidence in us. But I feel as women, we are just as good as the men. So I would like to see a change in women getting more briefs um for litigation purposes.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

And what do you think would be the impact of that? So, women having more briefs, how does that reshape the legal culture in South Africa?

SPEAKER_01 28:31

So, generally speaking, I feel when women get more briefs, we will just see a lot of justice happening in our courtrooms because we are more empathetic as women and our intelligence has not been explored, you know, because sometimes right now, as women, we are more in the background. So I feel that when we get briefs, we'll be more in the forefront, we'll be seen. I think it's time for women for us as women, you know, to be seen and to be in the forefront than just being a legal secretary, just the one typing. Because when you're typing, it's your ideas that go into the legal drafting, but then you won't get the opportunity to express it and to vocalize it. So when we give women briefs, we can be able to, whatever that we put on paper, we can be able to vocalize it and make it known and public, you know, so the world can see us that we are actually intelligent species.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Yeah, I can see what you're advocating for here, which is a more balanced justice where there are more women who are taking on briefs to understand problems that affect women and women are able to get the justice they deserve.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Yes, because I feel like the woman's voice right now is not being heard, especially in the justice system and in the abuse that women go through, the violence that women go through, but if our voices can be heard from a woman's perspective of how this crime, for example, affected the vulnerable, uh, our voices are needed actually in this time.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Yes, our voices are powerful when we use them the right way. After a journey of deep expertise, immense resilience, and now entrepreneurship, what does success look like to you today? And how has its definition changed for you?

SPEAKER_01 30:16

You know, success for me previously was um having a financial stability, right? But how it looks for me right now is the impact that I make to another human being. You know, sometimes we think that success is having it all, but sometimes it's impacting someone's life and changing someone's life. That's the true success.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yeah, you said it. It's about living for others. Okay, so finally, you mentioned it before, you touched on faith. I wanted to understand how faith drives you. How does it anchor you through everything that you've navigated up till now?

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Yes, so I believe that you know God has put us here on this earth for a specific purpose and a specific reason. And for us to fulfill that, we need to search deeply within his word. And God has, you know, put me on a platform just to be that change, just to be that light. You know, the word says we are the salt and the light of this world. So there should be a difference between the world and the throne of God. So my career has been shaped by my faith, has been shaped by me finding my true calling. It's about calling. Your career path is truly about how can you change the world or the circumstances that you are in, how can you show value into the profession that you go in or make a difference where you are? So my faith really did push me to also expand and want to help others as well, as how I've opened an NPO. It's me inspiring the next generation as well, which is important. Legacy is very important as well. Um, so then it's not good for me just to have made it in life, but how do I also bring other females, other women, other girls with me along the journey and teach them the very same values that I have sustained over these years? How do I teach them the discipline of how you shouldn't compromise towards the world standards, you know, because you are here on this earth for a greater purpose, a greater reason. So be that light and shine and arise because the world right now needs us as the people of light.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for that. It's so profound. We need more light. There's a lot of darkness in the world today. So when we shine our light, we drive out the darkness. Miss Banda, it's been such a powerful session we've had here today, and I feel honored that you chose the WeWin podcast platform to share your story with all the women listening and even the men. So much appreciated. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Oh, thank you so much for having me, Lolita. It was such a privilege just to share my story, and I hope my story will inspire many more young professionals or females, even older, even us who are older, also still experience such disadvantages and discrimination in the workplace. And I think it's important that we know that you know we can overcome these barriers as women. So I'm very grateful to be part of your podcast. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Well, I don't know about you. I feel like I've just gone through a washing machine and the spin cycle and come out at the other end. From Miss Bander's story, I could hear from her resilience, courage, justice, and equity for women. And it shows that even in the legal system, justice isn't balanced. In the world we are today, as advanced as we are in knowledge and wisdom about how to treat people with respect, there are a lot of women who are being subjected to sexual harassment. And it impacts their voice, it impacts their ability to grow, it impacts their ability to thrive, and it's generational. So we need to think about how we affect each other. What is the impact you're having on your colleagues today? And I also want to say to you women out there, when you witness another woman going through such a challenge, it is always best to reach out to support. When we all are a collective, we can do magic, we can change the system, and we can find justice where it's needed most. I want to say a big thank you to all of you listening today, and I hope you took away something valuable that would make you even more determined to make a difference. Thank you and goodbye.