EP. 32 Beyond the Hype: Oreoluwa Somolu-Lesi on Tech Truths, Deep Reading, and True Power

Oreoluwa Somolu-Lesi founded W.TEC in 2008, long before "Women in Tech" became a popular corporate slogan. Having reached over 47,000 girls, she discusses the hard truths of the industry and the one lie we need to stop telling young Nigerian girls about working in technology. We discuss her concerns about raising a generation of technically brilliant children who are losing the ability to read deeply and think critically in the age of TikTok. Finally, this Ashoka and Vital Voices Fellow shares the ultimate lesson she wants every 12-year-old girl in her W.TEC camps to know about her own power—a lesson no code can teach.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello everyone, and welcome to the WeWin podcast powered by Accelerate Her Africa in partnership with the Human Pattern Institute. You are all very welcome. I'm your host, Lolita Edgefor. There are change makers and there are architects of change. Women who don't just respond to gaps they see but build entire institutions to close them. My next guest is firmly in the second category. Over 20 years ago, she set out on a mission that was simple in its vision and radical in its ambition. To ensure that women and girls were not just consumers of technology, but creators, entrepreneurs, and leaders within it. In 2008, she founded the Women's Technology Empowerment Center, WTEch, a Nigerian non-profit that has since inspired over 47,000 girls and women across Nigeria to pursue STEM careers. She has been featured by BBC Africa, Time Magazine, and Ebony Life TV. She's also a fellow podcaster hosting The Other Room, where she spotlights women who have found purpose in their work. And if that wasn't enough, she is a social entrepreneur, a mentor, and a storyteller. And I'm genuinely honored to have her on our platform today. Please join me in welcoming the incomparable Oreolua Shorulu Lesi.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Welcome, welcome, Aure Lua. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here, Lolita. Thank you for the invitation.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

You're most welcome. Aurealua, you founded WTEch in 2008. So to put that in context, that was before Instagram existed and long before Women in Tech became a popular corporate slogan. In those early days when you walked into a boardroom to ask for funding for girls encoding, did people look at you like you were speaking a foreign language? What gave you the conviction to stick with it when there was no applause?

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Okay, so yes. Thank you for that, putting it in that context about Instagram not being not being in existence. But I mean, definitely, yes. When I started WTEch, in fact, no, before I started WTEch, I was already doing some volunteer work, um, working with girls in secondary school and uh teaching them how to blog. And I had the idea to do more, run more programs with girls specifically, and to start an organization solely focused, you know, on this. So I shared this in a professional group that I belonged to. It was a group of technology professionals. And the feedback I got was not what I was expecting at all. Uh the people, mostly men anyway, I suppose, on the group said, no, that why just girls, you know, I don't agree to this, I don't agree with this, I don't subscribe to this idea. I would not let my teenage daughter be part of any tech program. And I was really shocked because these are people who are working in technology. So if anything, I expected them to understand, you know, the potential benefits of technology for people, whether it's young people or older people. And then also hearing what they felt in particular about not having their daughters exposed to technology. And yeah, but I was convinced of the idea, so I forged on with the organization. But I mean, once um WTEch was legally incorporated and we started doing the rounds, doing courtesy um visits to potential partners, to newspaper houses, I mean, the feedback was pretty much the same. Why girls, why tech? If girls and women are not into tech, maybe it's because they're just not wired that way, they're just not interested in that. But I mean, thankfully, I mean, I had already done a lot of work in this area. So before I moved back to Nigeria, I was studying in the US, the UK and the US, and I started working in the US. I was working for an educational nonprofit organization. And the focus of the project I was working on was looking at the gender gap in STEM. So science, technology, engineering, and maths, exploring why there was a gap between boys and girls studying these subjects, feeling confident in these subjects and pursuing these subjects, you know, at the higher education level. And the data was so interesting. And it wasn't just our data, there was a lot of other data, you know, by other researchers out there about this gap, that this gap exists, why it exists, and how it's manifested in society. And I also saw it, you know, playing out in my own um school and working life as well. So I knew that this gender gap was not a myth, that it actually exists. I knew that the reasons that it exists were also um true and credible. So I think that really gave me the conviction to keep pushing forward. And then also seeing the feedback from the girls and women who are, you know, who I had touched through the programs that I had volunteered on. I think that for me, that was just enough motivation to let me know that yes, there is something to this and I should keep pushing despite all the naysayers.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

I'm just like thinking how far back 2008 actually is. For you to receive so much resistance to initiatives that provide STEM education for women is really something interesting. But for you to have persisted and carried on, and thankfully, with your studies, you were able to come back with data and more information around the gender gap in STEM, you're able to produce something. So the icing on the cake for you must be the reaction from these girls and the impact you've had on them.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Yes, it definitely was, definitely was. And the thing is, and I think what really helped also was that, you know, my initial work experience and research wasn't even in Nigeria, because a lot of times we feel like the West is so far ahead of us, we're behind. But the fact that the gender gap was real in the US where I was working, and even in the UK where I was before, and to see the data that it exists in so many parts of the world, I mean, was affirming that you know, this is this is important. And at the time, you know, technology was not as ubiquitous as it is now. I mean, now we have social media, so it's everywhere. Technology felt more far off that, oh, I'm either using technology or I am not using technology. Now, everybody uses technology, whether they consider themselves in tech or not. But I mean, we could already see the handwriting on the wall that tech was slowly going to be everywhere. One of the things I studied about during my masters was about the idea of convergence, convergence between technology and other aspects of life, whether it's education, whether it's health, whether it's so we could already see the direction it was going to. So I knew that it's very important whether you wanted to work in tech or not, at least to be confident, you know, using technology.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

What a visionary you are. Okay, you've reached over 47,000 girls, but you've also seen waves of tech hype come and go. We often tell young people that coding is the future, but we don't always tell them the hard truth about the industry. As someone who's been in the trenches for nearly 20 years, what is the one lie we need to stop telling young Nigerian girls about working in technology?

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Okay, so I think that's one thing that over here, tech is synonymous. So it's it's changed over the years. When um WTEC first started, it was synonymous with 419. So if you're working in tech, oh, you must be into fraud, you know, particularly if you didn't have like a fixed office address, you're working from home, or you're just working with your laptop, there must be something fraudulent about what you're doing. Now we understand, you know, the different opportunities for work within um within tech and using tech. So then another myth that I encounter is that you will make a lot of money in tech. And I mean, the truth is if you're good, yes, you you can, depending on the path that you're in, but then it takes time as well. I mean, you start your career, you can't just say, Oh, I want to go into tech. Number one, you need to know like what aspects of tech do I want to go into. There's so many. Everybody seems to think that tech is synonymous with coding. So, coding is tech. So, when you say, Oh, I'm running a technology program, oh, coding, okay, I want to learn coding. No, tech is more than that, you know. You could be, yeah, you could be a computer scientist, you could be a computer engineer, you could be a software developer, you could be an analyst, and you could be a data scientist, you could be a cybersecurity expert, um, you could be into telecoms. So I think number one, it's important that we understand the different jobs that there are within this whole space called technology. And number two, understand that you are not going to make money tomorrow or today. You need to study, you need to build up your work experience, you need to be able to gather your portfolio or, you know, to showcase what you have done. Because the truth is in technology, things like degrees are less important, qualifications are important to the extent that you can demonstrate the things that you know how to do. At the end of the day, the employers, the people who are going to offer you opportunities are interested in what you can do, not that you have this degree. So I think you know, there are several things that we really need to tease out. So, number one, that tech is just about coding, and number two, you know, it's an instant path to make money. You need to work hard, you need to put in the work, you need to be consistent, you need to develop your skills. And because tech is always evolving, you need to keep learning.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Absolutely. I agree with you. I think one of the major things about tech is establishing what problem you're solving. It's not just tech for tech's sake. Okay, so this is the part of your profile that fascinates me most. You spend your days advocating for technology at W Tech, but you are also a director at Pataba Books, a physical bookstore. Does the analog world of books serve as your sanctuary from the digital noise you deal with every day? Or do you find it difficult to switch gears between screens and paper?

SPEAKER_01 11:16

All right, so yeah, brilliant question. Ah, you really did your research. I feel like you're a detective and you investigated all aspects of my life. I love it. Um, okay, so I have loved reading since I was young, and I credit that to my mother because when my siblings and I were in primary school, she signed us up to a library and said, This is a library, people borrow books from here, and you borrow two books, read it within two weeks, come back, borrow two more books. So it was just something that we did, and so we all grew up loving to read. Uh, by the time you know, I started falling in love with technology. To me, I mean, it kind of lay side by side. Yes, I had periods in my life that I read less, periods where I was busy, I had a lot going on in life, the other distractions. But at the end of the day, that love for reading is there. And I think that when you love to read, you read everything. As a child, I would read the back of cereal boxes, anything that was within which, you know, I would read. And so it is now. I love my preferred medium of reading is definitely physical books, but I also read ebooks as well. Wherever I can get things to read, I will. So I always carry a book with me, a physical book. But at the same time, on my phone, I have books. On my iPad, I have books. They're everywhere. And then, especially, you know, raising my children. So my children are 10 and 8. They are growing up in a world that is completely different from the world I grew up in. For me, it was very easy. It was easier to fall in love with books because there wasn't really a lot else that we had going on. We had TV, but we didn't have 24-hour TV like you know, we have now. For us back then, TV started at 4 p.m. So before 4 p.m., there was no TV. And then they had a specific time slot for children's programs. After that, the seven o'clock news came on, and then it was like, you know, adult shows. So you had all these other hours that you have to fill up either by physical playing, like playing outside, or books. So it was easier for us. So I need to also understand that with my children, I also need to evolve in my thinking. And although I surround them with physical books, I also know that technology is a big part of their life. And so they also have e-books as well. They have books on their tablets, and so that's important. And so I also try to encourage the parents of the girls who we work with in WTEC that you know, learning is in all forms. Books, that's one aspect of it. Going to the library, that's one aspect of it. But also, people are taking in information through podcasts, through YouTube shows, through games. It's just different ways of getting information. So I think if we look at it that way, I think it's easier for us to appreciate that. We can read, but we can just read in different ways. But then there's also research that shows that reading paperbook is different from reading an e-book. You assimilate it differently. In the paper book, you're more likely to read every word. Your brain works in a different way. But when you're reading an e-book, you tend to skim more. You skim, you pick up a few words. So your brain does not work in the same way as it does with physical books. So at the end of the day, I still encourage my children to read, particularly after like 6 p.m. We say, okay, devices off. If you want to read, you need to read a paper book. So I'm trying to make sure they get a balance of the two. But um, yeah, I just think of technology as a way to extend the ways that we can read and take in information. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Either way, they're reading books, but I get you on ebooks being different from physical books. I'm reading a physical book right now, and I find it a lot more rewarding as I turn the pages, you know, than the ebook where you're just flipping the screen. So there is a difference. But it's also important that parents do instill the value of books into children, the value of reading into children, so that they're not always engaged with the screens and games and so on. You mentioned that Pataba aspires to promote a reading and creative culture for positive nation growth. In an age of TikTok and 15-second attention spans, are you worried that we are raising a generation of technically brilliant children who have lost the ability to sit quietly, read deeply, and think critically?

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yes, yes, that's a big worry. And it's a very valid worry. It's it really is. I mean, there was research that I was reading out of the US that um teachers are assigning much shorter books, passages for students to read. I mean, growing up, we were reading like we were reading what were considered the classics. Anyway, I guess they were the Western classics, you know, books that were not necessarily so easy to read, but we were reading the whole books. We were expected to maybe read it like within a week so that we could spend the rest of the term discussing it, analyzing it, and things like that. But learning that now teachers are assigning, not the whole book, but just passages of the book. It's really worrying because it's important to have that ability to sit, to focus, to think about what you just read, to reflect on it, to analyze it. We are definitely living in a world where sound bites matter. You know, you have to be quick, you need to be catchy so that you can get people's attention, you have to say what you need to say quickly. It really, ah, I guess so irritated when I'm reading comments on Instagram and somebody wrote a post, maybe, maybe wrote a comment with like 10 lines. Then the next person says, Oh, I don't have time to read all this grammar, just tell me in one line what you said.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

It's like seriously, it's it's a big problem because it also means that it's easier to fool people as well. You just put out one snappy option, something that is very superficial, that doesn't get to the heart of the surface because people want things quickly, quickly, quickly. I think that what we can do is we need to look at our own role as either parents or teachers or caretakers of the next generation, or even people who are just interested in the intersection of technology and society and keep advocating and keep pushing. I see a lot of people who do this, who are railing against screen times in school, who are pushing back against parents giving their children devices as babysitters. But I think that that is a very small core of the society. More people out there want information quick, want it fast. I think all we can do is keep pushing because it's really an art that is being fast lost, but it's really, really important. It's yeah, I mean, if we just convey in one line or in a YouTube video, it's just so I do worry about that. I really worry about that.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Yeah, it is worrying. I think in Australia, they've stopped access uh to social media for children under 16. And I know some other countries like the UK are just grappling with the whole concept of you know limiting social media access because of the reasons you've said they're very self-gratifying, instant information, um, you know, attention span, which is so limited to certain information. So it's a really precarious um time that we're living in. And I think it's the onus is on parents to just try and, you know, douse it a bit with some book reading, reading with the child, um, finding some interesting books that help the child's imagination to just flow a bit more than it would looking at the screen all day. So it's a really tough one, and I do empathize with a lot of parents.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Yes, yes. And I think whatever efforts, there needs to be like a critical mass of it happening. So I read this book called The Anxious Generation last year by Jonathan Hayes. So he talks about how social media and devices have really helped accelerate mental health decline in young people. And it's very interesting. I mean, he traces how um the advent of Instagram and mobile phones with um cameras, particularly front-facing cameras, they came out at a point where you know young people had access to these devices, started taking pictures, selfie, started connecting online, connecting in unhealthier ways, not like how we were using Facebook to connect with people we hadn't seen in a long time. Now it was more about having a following, having likes, and how that has really affected the mental health of people. Because especially between certain ages, you're very vulnerable. For us, it's different because we had a whole childhood without these devices, without social media. And by the time we started having access to these devices, we were more or less fully formed human beings with confidence, you know, with a healthy self-esteem. But when you're growing up with these devices at the age of 11, 12, when you are so vulnerable to what people think about you, it's really a big disaster. So if schools want to do that and not have phones, which I agree, I don't think the students should have phones in school, then all schools should do it, or they they should enforce it for everybody in the school. It can't work if it's just for like some students and other students, or if it's just like one school, but then you know their friends in other schools still have devices. It needs to be more collective.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Absolutely, I agree with you. I was looking at your early career and noticed something profound. You worked for years at the Suicide Prevention Resource Center in Massachusetts. That is heavy emotional work. Today we talk a lot about how social media and tech are fueling a mental health crisis among teenagers. Does your background in suicide prevention make you look at the technology we are putting in girls' hands differently? Are we giving them the tools they aren't emotionally ready for?

SPEAKER_01 21:33

All right, okay, so my work with the Suicide Prevention Resource Center. So I wasn't involved in the actual counseling work. I was a techie. So I was the person who provided the tools for our staff and our partners to do their work. So, for instance, I build a website, I build the online newsletters. We used to have online meetings way before, you know, COVID and you know, online meetings became popular. So I was the person who made it happen. So I was a bit far from doing the actual intervention work, but still the information was all around. And I saw how young people are vulnerable, particularly young people who feel different, left out, you know, not within the popular groups could be more vulnerable to that. And I have to say that for me, I think my perceptions have really changed since I became a parent. So I started WTEch before I was married, before I had children. And I definitely was very pro-technology, you know, for all young people. And I understood the concerns of parents, you know, when they talked about cyberbullying, you know, online pornography. My belief was always that it's important for young people to understand how to use this technology safely, because even if you prevent them from using the technologies at home, they will have access elsewhere. So it's important that they understand what the dangers are and know how to protect themselves and how to leverage the benefits because there are immense benefits from technology and social media. And so they know how to use these um devices wisely, smartly, efficiently. That was always my stance. By the time I had my daughter, and I was, I remember when she was about 15 months. I was now pregnant with my my son, and I was tired all the time. Oh, I was busy, and she would call mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy. I said, you know what? I'll just give her my phone and she'd watch a YouTube video, and all would be well with the world. So I thought, but then I started noticing that she wanted the phone all the time. So this was a girl who was happy playing, or before was happy playing by herself, building things with you know whatever she found in the house. All of a sudden, it was like phone, mommy, phone, phone, phone, phone. And she would sit with that phone for hours, dude. And then finally, she would not be able to fall asleep without the phone. When she did fall asleep, sometimes she would be crying in her sleep. She would have very, you know, I could see um turbulent dreams. And I started realizing that it was linked to the phone. That if she fell asleep normally without the phone, she was more likely to have a peaceful sleep. But if she fell asleep watching something on YouTube, she was more restless in her sleep. And that's when I actually really started paying attention more to all the literature and the research about it because I could see it playing out real time with my daughter. And so since then, I had to start, you know, looking at how we could use tech within boundaries. And of course, the more I read, I realized that oh, between the ages of zero to two, it's recommended that children that age actually don't have access to devices at all. I was like, oh my gosh, I've already done that. What am I going to do? But we live and learn, we do what we what we know how to do, and then when you know better, then you do better. So since then, we've had to limit screen time, we've had to have discussions because as she's gotten older, she would ask me questions or try and find out, you know, information online and maybe some of the things that you know they're like way above her age or things that you know she should not be. So, yeah, so we now have to have those conversations. So we are living in a completely different world. The tech is out there, but we the parents need to be very aware of what is out there and what we want for our children. And if that means limiting devices, then as a parent, that is your responsibility to do so. If that means you know having the hard discussions with your children about why they can't have devices before a certain age or why you need to have screen time, then it's important to do so. So for me, I think that tech is important, tech is necessary, they're using screens in school, but it's important to make sure that we have God's wills around it. So I think that's what we try to do. And within WTEch as well, we're making sure that we are also engaging with parents as well. So, especially for our programs with minors, we have their parents in, you know, we speak to them and we find out what they are thinking, and then we can also make recommendations as well. So I think it's an ongoing process. It's not like black or white, the way I think I used to think about it before I had my own children. Now I'm like, okay, we need to moderate this, we need to be involved. But you can't just give a blanket banner and say no devices because that's not going to work.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

I like how you've infused the ethical use of technology into WTC, ensuring that the parents are there because you're dealing with minors. So you've applied a very ethical role in the way you deliver your training and your teaching. So that's very good. I think it's a real struggle also for parents, you know, trying to find a balance between keeping their children occupied so that they can get on with things and actually paying attention to what they're watching and what they're they're looking at on their screens. And it doesn't surprise me that at young ages their brains are just far too small. They're still developing when they have access to this online information and they're addicted to the information. So you mentioned um YouTube videos, the children just know even know how to scroll, they know how to go to the next video. So it's really tough, but there are tools that help to restrict and limit children's time and the sort of materials that they access online. So there's there is a lot of responsibility on parents. Okay, so you host a podcast called The Other Room, where you talk to women about finding purpose in their work. You've interviewed incredibly accomplished women. Is there a common thread, a specific struggle or specific realization that you hear over and over again from high-achieving African women when the microphones are off?

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Okay, so uh yes. So the women that I've spoken to are, you know, very different. And I started the podcast because I was very interested in how people find the work that they love to do. Because for me, I felt it was a struggle. I kind of like was all over the place. I meandered a bit before I found I found my place, you know, in the workplace. But some common things that women, you know, have shared. Number one is not always feeling like they belong, despite what it might look like from the outside. And that could either be maybe they're in a male-dominated profession or industry, and they're just ways that they're just, you know, being made to feel like, oh, this is not your space. You don't belong here. It could be that. It could be that they are rising through the ranks and they are getting to a point where it's not um so much about how well you do your work, but the politics part of it in terms of the way you show up, the way you are visible about your accomplishments. And that is not, I think, natural for many women to talk about the things that they have done well, because in general, a lot of women are raised to be softer, quieter, demure. Your work will speak for itself. But we live in a very noisy, noisy era that there's a lot of noise out there from people who are not half as accomplished as you might be, but they just know how to talk up their accomplishments better. So I think that's also another big one. Not being comfortable talking about what we do and how well we do it. You know, I'm feeling like if we do that, we are bragging or we are boasting, but still seeing opportunities pass us by that we know that I could do that. I could do that. Why is it going to that person? So I think you know, that's another thing that I tend to see very often. The other one is balancing work and life and you know, and and and the home. I mean, even if you're not married or you have children, there's still a lot that's expected of women, you know, especially in the African society or in society in general, women wear many hats. So actually, even if it's women in the US, the UK, we're doing work that we're not being paid to do. But it's expected that oh, you're the girl, okay, in the house. Oh, are you the oldest daughter? Oldest daughters have to do this, this, this, this, this, or you have to do this, or oh, if you are single, oh, you're single, you don't have anything else to do. So why don't you come and do that's there's a lot of expectations. We are wearing so many hats in society. So I know a few women who say, Oh, I don't want to be thought of as a female doctor or as a female engineer or as a female anything. I'm an engineer. But the truth of the matter is in our society, women's lives are very different from men's lives. So for me, I enjoy engaging women and talking about how do you balance work and home? How do you, you know, how do you manage all those things? Because it's a reality of our lives. So those are some of the things that I think a lot of women struggle with and wonder how they can deal with those things.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Everything you said, I resonate with completely because I'm seeing that not just with my podcast guests, I'm also seeing it with young women who I mentor and um older women of my age group who are corporate women living their lives, and how they feel that they need to be small in some rooms and not speak up and not to toot their own horns and talk about their accomplishments and leave it to the loud noise makers to express themselves freely. So it's a it's a common denominator, and I'm I'm praying that women would realize their worth, and I'm hoping that women like you and myself will continue to spread the word that women should feel comfortable talking about their accomplishments, speaking up in rooms, and also helping the next generation of women. So I think we're aligned in that.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Patabo Books is a second-generation business set up in 1987. In Nigeria, it is notoriously difficult for businesses to survive the founder. What have you learned about the weight of stewardship? Is it harder to build your own thing, so in your case, WTEch, or to keep someone else's legacy alive, so Pataba, for instance?

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Okay, so I think they're both they're both challenging in different ways. Um for sure, starting your own thing, you are starting from ground zero. There's no templates, or well, depending on what you're doing anyway, if you're also creating your own niche like it was with WTEC, you definitely don't have a template. So you're just kind of feeling your way around. Um, and that's challenging. For me, when I started WTEch, number one, it really brought me out of my comfort zone because you know, I had to speak to a lot of people, I had to just go up to people. You know, you know, you ask for things, funding, partnership. I was definitely more reserved, and so for me, it was a real struggle having to do that. It really brought me out of my comfort zone, and then I was invited to speaking engagements because people would say this gender thing that you're always talking about. Yeah, come and talk, come and talk at our conference, come be on our panel, do this. And then the thing is, even though I was doing that and I was passionate about it, and I was doing that because I had seen the research, I still didn't consider myself an expert in that area. So people would invite me for speaking engagements, and I'll say no because I'm like, I'm not an expert, I'm just learning this thing as I go along, you know. So that was definitely a challenge, and then also when you're a founder, especially a solo founder, it's very lonely. Yes, you know, Ashake has his song lonely at the top, it's lonely because number one, I guess we're like, I don't really know what I'm doing. I mean, I know I have a sense, but I'm still trying to figure out my way. At the same time, you're the boss, everyone's looking at you like, okay, um, so um, we need to do this, and how do we do it? How do we, how do we, how do we? I'm just like, I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't say that, but you also, you know, you have to look like you have everything together because people expect the leader to know what they're about, you know. So you also have to put your face on when you're out there, then inside you're trying to like figure out so it can be very lonely and a tough world to be in, particularly when you're also looking for funding as well. So you're also trying to like survive. So I would say it's it was tough in that way. But then when you're also doing something that flows within your area of interest, there's also that joy and fulfillment that you get from that. Yeah, with the bookshop, it was different because so my parents started the bookshop, and um, my siblings, siblings and I used to work there, like over, well, not work, work, but I mean, kind of, because we'd be there over the weekends and then during holidays as well, we'll be there helping out and all that. So there was already a structure already there. But by the time my sister and I took it over, my parents had retired from their jobs and they were like, you know, it was good while it lasted, but we're done, we're tired, we're going to shut down this business. And so my sister and I said, Ah, no, we are going to take it on. And then it was now a new world because when my parents ran it, everything was paper-based, very manual. They would record the sales in a book and all that. Everybody was paying cash. So we have the cash, you know, in the shop, and then maybe at the end of the day, you take it to the bank or the following day. When you have a very manual system, lots of things can happen theft, loss, and all those. By the time my sister and I started, I mean, it was now, oh, tech. We need we we need to use tech. So it was a new, it was like a new phase of Pataba books. So it was still the same pathab books, but now everything was different because we were using tech, we had a website, or we were going to build a website. So it was, it was, it was different. It was the same, but it was different. So it was also kind of like we were starting from ground zero with that, because we were just changing how everything was done. We could not run business in the same way. But I think what helped with that was that there are two of us, and it is lovely when you have a partner who you are in sync with, and you can say, okay, I'm responsible for these areas, you are responsible for these areas, and then you know you work together. So I would say that they're very different, they're very, very different. I think if you have the opportunity to do both, it's great. You can take some things that you've learned in one and apply it to the other. So, but I would say that if I was going to start another venture, I would definitely want to do it with a partner. I I would because you can share the load. Yeah, but as I've been told, you have to find the right partner, otherwise it would be a terrible experience. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

Exactly. Plus, you can trust yourself to build something new. You've done W Tech on your own, you it was tough, but you took away lessons, so you are more than capable on your own. But yes, it's always easier when you have a partner. So, yes, I agree with you. Okay, so you sit on the board of Lazaric, which drives innovation for Lagos State. You are sitting at the intersection of civil society and government. If you could snap your fingers and change one mindset in our government leaders regarding technology and youth, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Um so I think the interesting thing for me about working with Laswick is that I have a closer glimpse into how government works. And I can't say that I'm an expert because I'm still on the outside, I'm on the council, but you know, I'm not working in government. But one thing that I would say is that yes, a lot of us have the perception that people go into governance to make money, especially here in Nigeria. But working with Laswick and through my work with WTEch, I have to say that I have met some exceptional civil servants, people who are passionate about Nigeria, passionate about Lagos State, passionate about improving lives for people, whether that's women, youth, everybody, and they are working very, very hard. So I think for me, the misconception is not even so much about what government has about, you know, about tech. It's about what we, the perceptions we have about people in government. And maybe it's the people who I've happened to meet, but like within Lastric, the team there are so passionate about moving Lagos state forward through science and technology so that you know we can catalyze the development, socioeconomic development of the states using STEM and they are working every day. And then there are layers of bureaucracy in governments as well. So I also see how slowly the wheels of change move, even though you know they have ideas, we have our council meetings, and you know, we brainstorm, and there's so many things we want to do. You still have the different levels that you need to go through in order to move things along properly. So I would actually say that some people you know within governments are really passionate about the country, passionate about moving the country forward. And they're working in situations where it's not so easy to make change. So I think that's one advantage that we have as private sector or the nonprofit. That in WSEC, we can say, oh, we want to explore this direction, we're looking at our strategic plan, or we need to change something in our strategic plan. We can easily do it. Same thing with private sector. You want to do something. If it's an agile company, you can be nimble about change, you can move quickly, you can look for the resources that you need, but it's not so easy in government. So I would say that I think that you know, a lot of people within government, particularly elastic anyway, are very aware of the potential that technology has and innovation has to move the state forward. But it's just, you know, being able to move to all those levels of bureaucracy to actually move from plan to action.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Okay, you know you're a visionary. So I just want to know do you foresee a time where Lagos State can fast track innovation? So remove all these blockers with the help of Lazarus as well, identifying those opportunities. But can we get to that point where technology and innovation moves far more quickly than it's doing today? Do you see that?

SPEAKER_01 41:48

Yes, yes, yes. Well, if we're talking within government, I'm not too sure about that because I think also government is designed intentionally to slow things down so that things can be thought through properly, things can go through the levels of approval that they need to. So I think that you know that's how it's designed, and um, it may stay that way unless we are living in a dictatorship, in which case things would change.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Right, Ariolua, you are an Ashoka fellow, a vital voice fellow, and a leader who has shaped thousands of lives. But if you look at the 12-year-old girl joining a W Tech camp today, a girl growing up in a Nigeria that is harder and more complex than the one we knew, what is the one thing you want her to know about her own power that no codes can teach her?

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Okay, I would say that there's this um saying, I think it's from a poem, you're the captain of your own ship. And I think that I agree with that in in certain ways that you are the one who can make decisions about the life you see for yourself, where you see yourself headed, and start to take the steps towards it. We live in a society, particularly as you know, in Nigeria, Africa, very communal. And our system is also very based on patronage. When you look at like the political system, who is your godfather, who is helping you, who gives you the permission to do something. And a lot of times we wait for permission to do things. But I would say don't wait for permission. I mean, I know that's that's not maybe exactly what people consider politically correct to say to a 12 year old child because you are still a minor, you're still under your parents' supervision, you know. Uh, but I would say determine in yourself what kind of life you want. For yourself, what you would like to do with your life, because I believe that we have just this one life. I mean, I don't believe in reincarnation. So I believe that we have this one life and it's precious and it goes by so quickly. So we need to be intentional about the choices we make and how we want to live our life. So I would say, even as a 12-year-old or as a nine-year-old, as an eight-year-old, I think that, you know, as children, we have a sense of who we are, and it's very strongly rooted. As a five-year-old, you know who you are inside. You may not be able to articulate it, but you know the kind of life you want for yourself. You just may not be able to say it out loud, or people will laugh at you, like this child, this small boy, this small girl, what do you even know anyway? But determine within yourself what you want for yourself and hold on to that because the vicitudes of life will pull you here and there, yeah, and sometimes try and beat you down and tell you no, you're just a girl, you're just a woman. Who do you think you are? Who gave you the right to have these kind of big dreams? Hold on to it inside you, yeah, and then each day try and take a step towards it. But then back to that poem, you know, you're the captain of your captain of your ship or captain of your soul. I can't remember what it is exactly, but it also that poem also kind of suggests that you alone determined what happened in your life, and that's not true because in life you need help from outside, nobody goes to where they're going by themselves. So you also need to know how to build your own network, your own inner, whether it's your own inner kitchen cabinets or your own board who will be encouraging you and helping you and pushing you along because nobody makes it to the end or to the top by themselves. But number one, determine what you want for yourself and realize that you're going to need help from other people around. And don't let life and other people shake you or make you feel inferior or make you feel silly about any dreams that you have, because some people will always try and do that.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Excellent advice. Um, I think even as adults, I can see where I would align with what you're saying. Be yourself. That's basically what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Yes, completely, completely.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Oh Lua, I've really enjoyed having you here with us today. It's been such an insightful session. I've taken away so much, and I'm sure our listeners have too.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed our conversation.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

So we've had our guest Aurelua with 18 years working in the technology sector and advocating for inclusion. She's doing so much to promote the importance of responsible tech, especially in families where we have young children. I think it's also important to note what she's doing with Lazaric, which is to promote innovation in Lagos State. She's an example of a woman who is playing her role in adding value to her state, which is what most of us should be doing. We have our talents, we have our skills. Let's apply them to drive our communities forward. I would like to say a huge thank you to all of you for listening in. I'll see you next time.