EP. 33 Stop Hustling, Start Owning: Lara Kayode on Brand Protection and Fighting Counterfeiters

Are you running a daily hustle, or do you actually own an asset? Top-tier IP attorney Lara Kayode has spent 30 years protecting the creations of African entrepreneurs and world-famous brands. We dive into the heartbreaking reality of founders losing their brands because they didn't protect them early enough. From hunting down counterfeiters to the psychological switch between being a fierce litigator and a CEDR-accredited mediator, we uncover the realities of intellectual property in a complex market.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome everyone to the WeWin Podcast powered by Accelerator Africa in partnership with the Human Pattern Institute. You are also welcome today. I am your host, Lolita Edgerfor. There are women who enter a room and command it because excellence has a presence. Today's guest has been walking in that presence for nearly three decades. Meets Lara Kayade, lawyer, founder, mediator, global authority, and one of the most formidable women in intellectual property law on the African continent and beyond. In 1996, Lara made a decision that would shape the landscape of IP law in Nigeria forever. She founded OK Co., a top-tier intellectual property law firm that has since become a name synonymous with precision, protection, and power. The world has taken notice. Lara is globally recognized as one of the leading trademark practitioners, named among the top 250 women in IP by Managing IP and Crowned Practitioner of the Year 2023. But what moves me about Lava is this. With all those titles, all those global recognition, she still turns around and speaks to entrepreneurs about why their ideas are worth protecting. Because she knows that IP is not just a legal matter, it's a wealth matter, it's a legacy matter. Every one of you listening today is about to learn something that will change the trajectory of your business forever. Let's dive in. Hello, Lara. Welcome to the We Win Podcast. Such a pleasure to have you here.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

How are you? Thank you. I'm very well, Lolita. It's lovely to be here and thank you for having me. Awesome.

unknown 2:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

Lara, you founded OKODE Co. in 1996. That means you have been running your own top-tier law firm for nearly three decades. I want to take you back to that beginning. What was the specific catalyst or frustration that made you leave the firm you worked for and build your own table rather than waiting for a seat at someone else's? And looking back, was there a definitive moment where it became clear the existing institution wasn't going to make room for what you were bringing?

SPEAKER_03 2:59

30 years. Thank you. Wow, I know. It doesn't feel like it's 30 years already. But I think it was not so much a case of what wasn't working. But I'd been to law school, I'd gone and specialized in intellectual property. And at that time, I think there were maybe four or five firms that actually practiced IP. I had worked in one of them. I had served as a corpor. Um, you know, really started out there. And when it was time to work, it didn't seem like there was space for me. And the reason sounded very reasonable. Ultimately, it was well, look, you're a woman, you're gonna get married. And when you get married, you will have to move. You'll have to go.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

So we we know you want to work, you know, you're very enthusiastic, but bottom line, you know, continue and all but I knew that okay, so there's no space, there's not gonna be space here. And you know, we look back now and we think, oh, how could they? But it was a norm. I mean, this was an all-male firm. Everybody was male, the receptionist, the secretary.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Right.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Um, so looking back now, it was a good thing. And so, well, look, I started to interview, and I would go to firms and I'd ask, okay, so how large is your IP portfolio? And they'd say, Oh no, we don't have an IP portfolio, we're starting with you. You're starting us out. I'm like, okay. And so I went back to my mentor, who is my tutor, who was my tutor. I said to him, Look, I have this challenge. I want to do well, I want to work, I want to do this IP thing. He goes, just set up your practice. I'm like, what? How am I gonna do that? He goes, uh, hello, you joking? Go ahead, just do it. Like, where am I gonna get the work from? He goes, the work will come. Just do it. And so I started, and it wasn't easy peasy. I was young. I think I had the advantage of youth. I had no responsibilities, I wasn't paying bills, I was still living at home. So, really, what did I have to lose?

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

Um, so it was like an adventure. Let's try this thing out. But I had support from home, I had support from my family. My parents paid my first rent at my office. I saved up some money that I thought was a lot of money. But by the time I bought my books, and they were secondhand books by the way, because that's all I could afford. I was very fortunate that I went into this secondhand bookstore in Chanceville, Wilde and Sons, yes, and I said, Look, I'm starting up an IP practice in Nigeria and I need to buy books. And he goes, Well, you need these books, these books, and he told him what books I needed. And I said, Well, gosh, I can't afford to buy all of those. He goes, Look, a barrister has just passed on, an IP barrister in Australia, and it's possible that we may be able to get his books from his estate.

SPEAKER_04 6:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

So, how much do you have? I told him how much I had, which I thought was a lot of money. He goes, hmm, I'd probably be able to get you three or four titles. I said, that's a start. I had nothing, and that was it. I paid and they shipped my books, my second hand set of books, which I still have, from Australia to Lagos. And that's how I started. I had, in addition to that, I like to talk about it. I had um a computer and a laser jet 5L printer. That was like top laser jets, yes, not top print. No, no, no, no, no, no. It had to be laser jets. Um, and I had an email address.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

Ooh. Aol.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Compusev.com. 101635 at compucep.com. That's going way back. And that's it. That's how I mean literally started from my bedroom, and literally I would wake up in the morning, get dressed from my bed to my table. I think my parents just felt sorry for like, you know what? This girl, let's get you an office. And my cousin um had an office at the time. I mean, these are stories that we really need to tell. My cousin had an office on the seventh floor in Great Nigeria House. And um, he said, Oh, I think there's space on the ninth floor. A little space, come and start there. And that's how I started. And the rest of the story, as I say, is history.

SPEAKER_04 7:44

So, how long was all this, you know, from the beginning, from you talking to your mentor to the point of getting into the office?

SPEAKER_03 7:50

So I was in England after my master's. I stayed on for a bit, um, trying to find a job. And all the jobs that I got, I just knew that after all this, I mean, I suffered in law school. Law school was hard. I had a place in England, to be fair, to do my solicitor's finals. I had a place at Chester that I had deferred, that look, let me go to law school and just come right back and settle back into life in the UK. So I'd say it was probably about nine months from when I decided, okay, I'm going back to Lagos to March 16. It was a Saturday that we opened up that office, said a little prayer with. I remember who was there like yesterday. My father's very good friend of blessed memory, Dr. Roger, who's a judge. He was there. My parents, my father's first client, a Lebanese gentleman who said to my father, Wow, Coyote, you started your office from the back of your car.

unknown 8:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Look at us, you know. And literally was, I think to the day, maybe 25 years, since my father had started practicing. Yes. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

So that is such an extraordinary but inspiring story. And again, even back then, you had the just do it push to just do it, just start your own thing. And you managed to do that, and then you got help to get your books, and not just any books, your inaugural books were from an IP might be practice. Oh, it's it's it's brilliant. It's good. It's it was meant to be a good factor. It was, it certainly was. Beautiful story. Thanks for sharing. Surviving as a business in Nigeria for 30 years is an extreme sport. Absolutely. Surviving as a female-led practice is even harder. What is the single most important survival mechanism you had to develop to navigate the early days of building your firm's reputation in a heavily male-dominated corporate environment?

SPEAKER_03 10:00

Um, thank you for that question. I think if you'd asked me this when I started, I'd have said it was toughness. But looking back now, it wasn't toughness. It was just stamina, it was emotional stamina. You can be tough, and then you get to work. And in those days, we depended heavily on NITEL. So I had to have, you know, what we people don't understand when I talk about IDD, international direct dialing, you paid for that separately. Right. And so sometimes, and we had a fax machine, and so the highlight of my day was literally opening up my office and checking to see if any faxes had come in, any documents are coming by fax. So it meant, yay, there's work. Um, so it was emotional. But you know that was tech driven that time. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, before me, they had relied on telex and cable, you know, telecom telegrams. Yeah, so uh the highlights was really um walking in and seeing that system, you know, working. So I think it was emotional stamina, and then you had to keep showing up, you know, competence eventually will silence your doubt because there's no way that you wake up and you don't think, eh, are you sure? Especially at that time, my mates, my classmates from law school, it was a time of the banks, the new generation banks were setting up, and a lot of people went into banking and you got a car. I mean, the Day Worisa was like the highlight. I mean, so my mates had cars. I had friends who said to me, Wow, you're very brave. And my real friends, my problem said, Oh my, yeah, stupid. Are you sure this is what you want to be doing? Um, so you know, you need stamina. I think it was stamina. Um, it's a marathon. It was a marathon, a lot of huddles. So maybe like a steeplechase. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

But how did you feel about it being a male-dominated space? Was there any apart from stamina? There must have been grits within you to just continue.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

Oh, yeah. I mean, I had a lot of I'd go to conferences and my seniors, because they were my seniors, I mean, they'd been in the business for a long time, um, would be there, and they'd say to me, Oh, you are alone. If you eat alone, you die alone, or you know, those funny comments. And you know, it's one of those things that you think, can I do this? Are you sure you can do that? I mean, you go into a conference, you don't know anybody, you go into meetings, you're not sure, you're really you're marketing, you're there to sell yourself, but you really don't have a lot of experience, so to say, to back up your story. But all you have really is yourself. And so whether you are male or female, and my mother, God bless her soul, used to say to me, In your exams, do you have separate classes for boys? Separate classes for girls. So boys do different exams. I said, No, mama, they don't. So whether you're a girl or you're a boy, you have a brain. You want to do this, just go for it. So I'd be in meetings, in committee meetings, I'd be the only female, but I'm not there because I am a girl. I'm there because I am a lawyer and I have the exact same qualifications to be there. So I don't think it's ever been for me. Maybe I had a point to prove.

SPEAKER_04 13:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:31

Maybe I had a point to prove. Um, you are going to get married, and then you are going to. If I the example I was given was, what if your husband's going to Tokyo? Then you're going to follow him to Tokyo. And I said, but I've never been to Tokyo. But eventually last year I went to Tokyo. And so when I arrived at the Tokyo, I said Tokyo. I came over. But only alone. You know, it was one of those things. So I've never gone into a room and thought that it's because I'm a girl, or you know, it's never bothered me. That's good. I go in and do my stuff. I'm a lawyer.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

You know. Your role is not gender-specific.

SPEAKER_04 14:07

It's not gender-specific. It's not. You regularly speak to entrepreneurs about the value of IP. In a market where the daily hustle is so immediate and tangible, what is the hardest mindset shift you have had to make them see regarding the difference between running an activity and actually owning an asset?

SPEAKER_03 14:31

Even yesterday I still had this conversation. You know how we call it hustle? I hate that word so much. It's not a hustle. Yes, you're busy, you're working. And there's a slogan that I found, and if I'm going to adopt it, it says, you know, your hustle feeds you today, but your IP feeds you for life.

SPEAKER_04 14:53

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

So if you look at it as um hand to mouth, and you know, in Nigeria we have MSMEs, mostly MSMEs. Okay. So you find that it's it's micro, but that micro is massive. The turnover is unbelievable if only we would collate and keep track of what we're doing.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

We confuse activity with ownership. So because I'm doing this thing means I own it. You know, it's like saying because I live in my landlord's house, I own it. Do you really? Your landlord owns your house. You pay rent, pay rent to live there, um, but it's not yours. If you don't protect what you are doing, your design, your formula, your content, you're just building on sand, you're just doing.

unknown 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

Maybe I'm partial to women entrepreneurs, but I said to them, if you can't sell it, you can't license it, you can't pass it on. It's not an asset. It's just effort. You are just working and earning money and spending the money. An example I like to give is property.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Uh, two days ago, I was sitting with two ladies in trade. So they're trade specialists, and we're talking about how do we explain IP to the average Joe on the street. And I said, okay, the name itself should be self-explanatory, but let me break it down. So intellectual property as opposed to real property, intellectual property is intangible, it's a property of your mind. Your real property is your house. We're living, we're in this house. So when you buy a plot of land, the first thing you do, you check from whoever you're buying from that they have a right to sell. To sell. And where do you do that? You go to the land registry. You don't take their word for it, especially in Lagos. So you ensure that they have a title. And it's that title that gives them the right to assign to you, to rent to you, to sell to you, or to lease to you for a period of time. It could even be land. Developer says to you, look, I'll take it off you, or leases your land, decides to build, and says, you know what, I'm going to build 10 flats here. I'll give you two. You can make with it what you want. But at the end of 25 years, I'm handing it over back to you. In that 25 years, he knows he's going to make his money and all of that. So with intellectual property, it's property of your mind. So it's your idea. You know, say, it's my idea, it's my idea. Uh yeah, it's your idea. But what are you doing with your idea? So if you buy a plot of landing, I always use Banana Island. But here they're more lucrative parts of Lagos these days. But let's say banana, it doesn't matter who your neighbor is. The first thing you do is you fence it after you are sure that you know you have your right, you've paid, you have your receipt. So you fence it up, you protect it. Because even if you don't, your posh neighbor will slowly carve out a little part to be their garden. Maybe add it to their swimming pool or to their gym. Because you've left it, it's open. So you protect it. Same with our ideas. The law doesn't protect your ideas, it's the expression of your idea that the law protects. That's why there are many ideas because what the what intellectual property does is really give you a monopoly. It gives you a right. If you protect it, maintain it, you can have it forever. Depend on the rights that you have. So, copyright, for instance, you for certain works is life plus 70 after you have passed. Which is why you hear some musicians, their children, benefit from their work, even though they have passed on. If they don't protect it, there's nothing to benefit from. You know how some people will say to their parents, where were you? When your mates were so aha. You know, so that's what IP is. It's expression of that, your fantastic idea, your hobby, this is your effort. Think about it as, especially women, women, we're so protective of what we have done. Oh, it's mine. I started it. I don't want um, excuse me, if L'Oreal is asking to partner with you, your beauty brand, and they're paying you a hundred thousand dollars, for example, it's because they know they can make a million. If somebody is partnering with you to do a collaboration for a sports brand, for instance, it's because they know that they're gonna make money off you. Yeah, you will make money. So why are you hugging that which you can benefit from? So I think it's opening up your mind to see the potential, and that's my job. Apart from saying to you, Oh, let me register your trademark, let me register your copyright, let me protect your industrial design, or let me help you um ensure that your patent is protected. It's helping you see the business side of this, your expression. Always build as if you're going to sell. I know culturally, it's not what we do. We want to hold on to it, but selling it doesn't mean you let go of it. Yeah, um, there's a lady that we are going to be interviewing next week, and she a part of her business, she said, I mean, she started her business when she was 19, and she said at one point she sold a bit of it, but she bought it back and she realized that my brand, the way they're doing this, my brand is not following with what you know my ideals and my culture. And so she bought it back. Um, and so we need to just open up our minds, I think. As an SME, yes, of course, you you have the right to own your thing. You want to say, yes, I'm the one. Even for me, I've had many opportunities and many options and invitations to partner, but I look at the culture. I have a particular set of clients who work with me because of the way I work. Um, am I going to be able to continue that? So, is it a case of, oh, I want to be bigger at the expense of losing out on my culture? No. So you look at it, you have to wait. But as an SME, I would say to you do your homework and start. Like you are already whoever it is your model is. So if you're a beauty brand and your model is whoever, begin to see what it is that you need to do. Don't wait until you start before you have your HR. Have an organogram. I say to the woman selling Chin Chin, have an organogram. How do you want your business to look like in 10 years? In five years? And you're wondering, I can't afford to have an HR personnel. Yeah, but do you have a book? Do you have an SOP? Do you have something for your business that is already existing? When I started, I was a secretary, I was a receptionist, I was the postgirl, I was I wasn't the driver because at least thankful to my parents, they paid for me to have a driver. You know his salary at that time. I say it now, it was 4K, and 4K was a lot of money. 4K was a lot. Yeah, because it was, I think it was um 32 naira to fill my tank. Right. Yeah, so I'm showing my age now. Oh gosh. You know, so you know, but if you don't protect your brand, your design, your formula, you're just building on sand, and I say, look at it like I'm gonna be able to sell it. Yeah, that's what happens when you hear oh, Facebook boats, one small business. They had they have structure. No one's gonna buy something that is just floating. Yes, no one's gonna invest in that either.

SPEAKER_04 23:28

Yeah, so the bottom line is that structure needs to be seen as something. But I love the masterclass on what an IP is because some of us have been hearing the word, and um, it's nice the way you broke it down for us to understand it's our idea that sellable that can be used to build and passed on to the next generation. Um, so there are a lot of people building, we don't know what we're building and where it's gonna go. Awesome. So, without naming names, can you share a story of an entrepreneur or creator who came to you after it was too late? Someone who lost their brand, their product, name, or their invention because they didn't protect it early enough. When you look at those heartbreaking situations honestly, is the root cause usually arrogance, ignorance, or simply a lack of resources?

SPEAKER_03 24:23

I think it's it's a mixture of both. I think ignorance mixed with optimism. So when we say things like, nobody can use my name, nobody can take mine, it's mine. I I I'm the builder of it. Uh hello. It's an idea. You've expressed it, but you haven't protected it. And you've put it online, and somebody has seen that. I was thinking about that. Okay, let me just you do it the way they've done it with a twist, but you haven't protected it. I think it's that belief, really, that nobody will steal my idea, but really unprotected ideas or unprotected expression of ideas, they don't get stolen, they get claimed.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

They just somebody will just passing by. Oh, that looks nice. I'll use that next time. And then, but when they use it, if you're protected, then you're able to say, hang on, um, you can't do that without my permission. Um, and what is that permission? I can give you a license to, I'm not saying I can do everything, but I've protected it. Yeah, so I can give you a license to use it. I can give you permission for a period of time. We can collaborate, but you can't just take it. Now the law is versatile. But you know, I always say we have common law, of course. We have statutory law and we have common law. Of course, through common law, it's through fairness, equity, but it's going to be a roundabout way for us to get there as opposed to having a registration to say, look, hang on, I was first to get here, I was first to file. I'm the owner, this is my certificate, or this is proof that I'm the first person here. So sorry, you can't do that. And if you want to do it, let's have a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

I think that's that's it. I mean, we we have a case right now where we're trying to navigate how we're gonna go around because we had the initial conversation, I think, late last year. And we don't push because we don't want it, we're not ambulance chasers. The first thing they teach you in those schools, you don't chase after your client. You give a client the information, if they want it, they'll come. If they don't come back, they could have gone somewhere else, and you have to respect that. And so when you come back later and say, I should have done it, should I, would I, could I? Yes, I know, but what we're gonna do now. So now, unfortunately, it means that it's gonna cost you more money, it's more time. We're not going to have to be looking for a way to, you know, repair what we didn't really need to. It would have been a straight case of let's do this, get it over and done with, I have protection, you know, and you know, carry on.

SPEAKER_04 27:09

Yeah. You know, um, you mentioned in your first response with regards to your story, how you started. You said there were just four of these IP firms at the time. Is it still niche today? Do we have more of these firms that are, especially in Nigeria? Because I'm actually thinking about the availability of this knowledge where people understand that they need to protect their IP.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Um, so I I it's better than it was. Uh, at least now IP is being taught at universities. Most universities have IP clubs, intellectual property clubs, yes. So when I did IP, I remember at a law school, um we had like one-page commercial law, and they just briefly mentioned it. So it wasn't a subject, it wasn't taught, but now it's taught at universities. So there's a lot more, of course. I mean, there are a lot more firms. Um, is this still niche? I think so. Are there firms who only do IP? Very few. A lot of people have an IP department. Most firms will probably have an IP department. IP and technology law um will now go hand in hand. So the knowledge is there. I mean, um, and the younger people, I think, are a lot more curious than we are. And so there's a lot of information. Um, but I think awareness still needs to be created. It needs to be more, we need to be more intentional. Um, we have an association, there's a law association, IP Law Law's Association, um, but it's taught in universities, and yes, there are a lot more firms that do it. Yes. It's good to know. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 28:50

You have a growing enforcement department that successfully handles counterfeiting cases, defending world famous brands. Enforcing IP in the African market is notoriously complex and sometimes dangerous. What is the reality of hunting down counterfeiters? Is it just a matter of filing legal paperwork or does it require completely different, grittier kind of street level strategy? And who in that chain is usually the hardest to move?

SPEAKER_03 29:24

Okay, um, I think counterfeiting is dangerous business globally. It must be. It's everywhere, it's everywhere. And um counterfeiting, you think you're not doing any harm, or I'm not harming anybody, it's just uh a dodgy bag, or you know, uh those shoes. I'm not I'm not hurting anyone. But a lot of the money um that is behind counterfeiting is from you know dangerous uh and illicit and yes, and gangs and all of that. So people think enforcement is just about filing IP work, uh, you know, filing paperwork. It's not in Africa, no, anywhere in the world, it's intelligence work, it's field work, it's navigating markets. Now we don't really have formal markets. Now we have malls, and you know, it's better, but really predominantly our markets are informal. So it's not a case of I'm going to shop, you say it's shop A line two, something this in a particular market. So when my international client says, Oh, it's you know, it's this market in this part of town, and I said, Oh, on Google Maps, we found that. I'm like, okay, so on your Google Maps, this is what's shown you, but this is the reality. Um, so it's it's navigating markets where counterfeiters are organized. It's an organized trade, an organized business. They're well funded, so they have resources and sometimes they're protected.

SPEAKER_04 31:03

It's crazy because if the market wasn't there for counterfeiting goods, they probably just all go away. But people are buying and patronizing and giving them more money to be more resourceful in what they do. And it's a global synonym. Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

Um, so you said the hardest people to move are not the counterfeiters. They know what they're doing. They have the strategy, it's what they do. Um, I think the the the real challenge for me would be in the middle layer. So distributors, market associations, transporters. Because the goods move from A to B somehow. Um and the distributors are aware, they know when the numbers are going down. They order original products, the market is moving, but their products are not moving. But the product is popular in the markets, so clearly that information is there. Um, the market associations, this information is there, they know, they know who's selling what. So to enforce properly, you need strategy, you need diplomacy. You can't go in gongsho here, okay. Corral, we're here to do this. No, no, it's not gonna happen. And you need courage to call it out, even you need courage, and you definitely need a level of grit. Law school doesn't prepare you for enforcement work, law school doesn't prepare you for going into the market, doesn't prepare you for raids, you know. So it's hands-on, it's very hands-on, um, but it's exciting. I love it.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

I love doing this. How many of these raids do we have in Nigeria? I don't really hear of raids. It's only the customs guys that stop. I don't know. Do we have proper enforcements that make an impact enough to get these goods and just burn them, destroy them without them infiltrating back into the market?

SPEAKER_03 33:20

So we have a lot of regulatory bodies who work on this type of enforcement. So depending on the product. So for food and drugs and beverages, because beverages are uh consumables, it would be NAVDAC. So you find that you collaborate a lot with regulatory bodies to get these things off the street. The standard organization of Nigeria, NAVDAC, Customs, even the police in some instances, um, would be the right regulatory body. And yes, but if you heard about it all the time, then you know it's part of the but it work gets done. So they're being sleuth and you have to. Okay. So that's what you believe you have our strategy. Trust me, we get it done.

SPEAKER_04 34:07

Awesome. Because of that enforcement work, you operate across courts, regulators, customs officials, and law enforcement, all on the same case. What does it feel like when a case that should have been won starts to fall apart? Not because the law wasn't on your side, but because the institutional system simply wouldn't hold together.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

You know, when when a file goes missing, a file goes missing, that's it. Uh-oh. So if a file goes missing, official file goes missing, then we have to start uh collating documents and it happens. Um regulator may be unavailable. And not because they don't want to be, but because of the system. Maybe logistically, they haven't been able to get out of their base to wherever the case is being um heard. Or a process stalls, just stalls. And these things happen. You show up in court, and unfortunately, the judge has to go for official business, and there's nothing we can do, it's as your court pleases. So, you know, the Nigeria IP ecosystem struggles because of these things. Yeah. So a file could go missing, and you you were shocked when I said that.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

So a trademark file, uh thankfully, we're we're slowly getting back online. But if it's missing, there's nothing we can do except if we now begin to trace, hopefully, I mean, so we keep backups of everything. But you know, so our institutions, unfortunately, sometimes in some cases still work in silos.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

We have a national IP policy, thank God for that. It's a strong one, but a policy is only as effective as the collaboration behind it. So the policy will involve a lot of organizations, regulatory bodies, um, departments, ministries to work together in cohesion. So we have regulators, we have customs, law enforcement, courts. If we have everyone working as one system, then enforcement will always work. But if they're working in silos, then it's like pushing that car up a hill. Absolutely so it's it's you know, but every failure reminds us we don't give up, we keep pushing for reform. So until we try it, we don't know where it doesn't work. So once we get to a bottleneck, we look for solution. So you have to be solution-oriented, yeah. Um, I think to work in this space.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:56

Um you have to be very determined and driven also because imagine if a file goes missing. Many people will be like, I'm not doing this.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

You would do it, you'll have to do it. Our global colleagues don't understand it. So what do you mean? Why is it taking so long for but it's one of the things I always say to my my global colleagues and my international global north colleagues, shall I say? That look, if you had to work in the environment that I work in, I'm not sure that you do what you do. You you walk into your office, everything works. You don't worry about. I run, I mean, literally, um, we were at a meeting the other day and they were talking about how SMEs, and I I count myself as an SME. I mean, really, I run a business. We run two businesses. You have, I call it your own local government authority, your power, your own administrative system, and then you have to work with whatever the government provides or whatever's available, you know, on that side. So um it's uh it's tough.

SPEAKER_04 37:59

It's the context in which you're operating doesn't help, but you it's you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_03 38:06

It's Nigeria context, and we all we make it work somehow.

SPEAKER_04 38:10

We do. Yeah, it's great. So this is a fascinating contrast in your profile. You are a fierce IP lawyer fighting counterfeiters, but you are also a CEDR accredited mediator. Litigation is often about warfare and winning at all costs. Mediation is about finding the middle ground. How do you mentally switch between those two very different psychological modes when dealing with a high-stakes business dispute?

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Okay, thank you. That's such a good thing. When I saw that, I just smiled. So for me, both roles are forms of advocacy. The head of my litigation department is a tiny, tiny lady, but she's so fierce. Small and mighty. Absolutely. And you say I say when we're litigating, when we're enforcing, you're equivalent of a sword. When you're mediating, you're a bridge. So, you know, it's time to we wield the sword of enforcement. We're gonna get you to the, you know, and the switch happens when I look at my client, I look at their business, I look at the outcome. So, what outcome protects my client's long-term interest? Um, it's impossible for me to sit with a counterfeiter and mediate. However, a huge distributor who is unaware that the products he's selling are counterfeit, I can sit with and educate and say to him, see, these products you are selling, you have gotten them from wherever it is you got them from, but they're not from source. So you are clearly a good conduit to do business, you're not aware that this is not the proper product. Let's sit down and see how we can get you into the proper channel of doing business. If war is going to destroy value, then we shift into mediator mode. So if you're a huge distributor and you're just not aware, yeah, you know, you're in a supermarket, for instance, and you they just dump the products in your and you you do good business. Doesn't make sense. I go in there, I see, I close you down, I shut you down. You can't do business, but you're not aware that you can say to me, Ah Madam, they just brought this product, it's not my product. So it's okay, so you are in a good place for my client to sell. You're not aware. So let's talk about it. As opposed to shutting you down and you know, shooting myself in the foot and my clients in the foot. If peace will reward bad behavior, then we go into enforcement and litigate on. So if I'm I'm going to I don't want trouble, but then you're gonna carry on doing what you're doing. No, no, no. Then we go into you know enforcement. So I I think it's it's really not about ego, it's really strategy. You just that's why I say you look, you have to look at the business holistically, you have to look at your client holistically, you have to see what it is. So, you know, they're selling your product. There's clearly a market for your product in this store. Um, so how are we going to ensure that the right product gets in into the place? So we may start off with enforcement and then we get to um conversation, yeah, you know, and also sometimes, you know, with on domain names and you know, and all of that, some you're not aware. Just I just thought it was a name. No, it's not just a name, you know. So let's sit down. You can't do this, you get a tap on the wrist, but if you continue, then we're gonna go somewhere, you know, somewhere else.

SPEAKER_04 41:50

And I you mentioned strategy, but there's also discernment, knowing when to apply each yes, I think that's where wisdom comes into place.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

I mean, and that's where rather, like I said, it's not about ego. But saying, Oh, I'm gonna get you. No, no, no. Let's sit down, let's evaluate what it is. I mean, by the time a client is asking me for um documents, you know, say, oh, okay, look, you filed this for us. Immediately I know, okay, you there's some enforcement issues somewhere. And you know, you educate your team and say, look, give is their document. They don't have to come to you to do it, but clearly ensure that you keep your records. The client has a right to the information. Um, and we're we're there to assist them.

SPEAKER_04 42:34

So here's a question I don't think you get asked enough. After 30 years of watching the entire intellectual property architecture work and fail, so by this I mean the system designed to make what someone creates legally real and protected. Where does it most consistently let down the people it was built for? Is this a structural flaw we have to live with, or is it something that can actually be fixed?

SPEAKER_03 43:04

I don't think it's a structural flaw. I think um, I mean, if we look at it, the protection of IP didn't start with modernization. There's something that's very, you know, close to my heart, and it's an aspect of IP and is geographical indications. So, geographical indication is something that identifies a product with a particular region, right? And they get protection because that product comes from that region and that region alone. And the case in point, it will be champagne.

SPEAKER_04 43:39

Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

Champagne is champagne. If it doesn't come from that region in France, it can't be called champagne. Same with Bordeaux. So it comes from a particular group, and that's and a region, and that's so it's identified with that region, and so the protection is accorded to.

SPEAKER_04 44:00

That understood.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

That's so. Um, let's bring it closer to home. Usuka pepe. You can't get come from Lagos. Usuka pepe comes from Usuka, isn't it? Yeah. Okay. You can't find it anywhere else. So why isn't it protected? Why can't that region benefit from protecting and somebody else wants to use it? Why will I grow Pepe in Lagos? Say it's like Usuka Pepe. It's not. Okay, let's go a bit closer. Adi Re. What is Adi Re? We say tie and die. In the language, it means we tie it and we soak it. Adi Are. So we tie it, we soak it in the indigo or in the dye. There's a particular way and manner in which we do that that is unique to that region, that part of the country. Why can't they benefit from that? Okay, wool mark. If I see the picture of a yarn on a label, I know it's wool. It means it can't be acrylic, it's not polyester. So that's a mark that protects a particular group of people. So we keep thinking until I register it. There are common law rights that you get from using over the years, you know, using your so there's no reason why the people of Abe Ukuta cannot have um some sort of protection, geographical indication. And so if you call it Adire, is it really Adire? So Prosecco is from Italy. It's fizzy alcohol. Cava is fizzy from Spain. Sherry is from Spain, it's from a particular part of Spain. If it's not from there, you can't call it that. Why? The reason is because it's protected. So when you say is it, has it filled? I don't know that it's filled. I think awareness and accessibility is for me something that we need to reinforce. Yeah. So there's no reason why. And in Kano, there's something we call Kano tie and die. So they call it that. Yes, they call it that. It's from Kano. No, it's from Carnival. So as soon as you see it, you identify it. Oh, it's from Kano. So it's it's tied to that region. And so, but then we now find that there are certain parts of the world where we go and they say it's from this part of the world. But it shouldn't be because it doesn't originate from that part of the world. So geographical indications, the laws exist. We have laws, protections exist. The average Nigerian may not be able to afford them, may not be aware of them, may not be able to navigate them, and I may not be able to enforce them. Doesn't know that they have that right. If regulators work in silos, then it becomes a fortress. And if it's a fortress, what do you see when you see a fortress? You see a huge wall. Yeah. And there's a castle behind it. But you can't access that castle, even if it has all the best food in the world, because you can't access, there's no access through the fortress. So is it fixable? Yes. But I think it's only through collaboration, yeah, digitization, cost reduction, um, and public awareness. I think IP protection should not be a luxury. Um, it should be a right. Yeah, you know, it's it's there, um, and it should be accessible. And I think the policy makes it easier. We have the creatives covered, everyone's in the policy, everyone's covered in the policy. My prayer really is implementation should now um, you know, begin in earnest, yeah, and then we can really benefit from all that we have, all the potential that's there. I mean, if our population, the last statistic I heard was 60% is under 14. 60% of 230 million people. Can you imagine the potential, the innovation, the creativity, the opportunity? Um, I think that's really where we are.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

There's a lot of potential here. Um I think what we seriously lack is that cohesiveness, that you know, working together to achieve it. There's always something out of line, and you need all the factors to work together, not just awareness without cost, you know, especially the cost. Because when you mentioned Idiere, I was like, wow, that should be an IP in itself. Because everyone calls anything IDR, but to know that it's a joke has a geographical origin and that name is tied to that geography, it should be um protected.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

Yeah, you should you shouldn't call Gary Jebu if it's not from Ijebu. Gary comes from everywhere, we know. But there is Gary Jebu, and there's a peculiarity to Gary Jebu. There's a peculiarity to Gary Jebu that makes you go out because really, what an IP is what trademark, for instance, is indication of sauce. So if I see Gary Jeb, I expect it to taste in a particular way.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

Um, it doesn't mean that there's no Gary anywhere else, but the particular, the way the soil is, maybe that's what it is. We don't know what it is, but yes. So why are we calling Gairi from somewhere else? You know, Benue Yam is Benue Yam. The yams from Benue apparently are there's something to it, the soil that makes the yam taste the way it does. So it should not be called anything else, and they should have protection.

SPEAKER_04 50:07

So the protection, say, let's say for Adi Ray, would it cover them internationally? Because you gave the examples of champagne, prosecco, cover. Do we have people abroad producing similar materials and calling it African print adire? Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

And so if there was a law, the There is a law, there's a bill, there's a geographical, there's a geographical indication bill that needs to be passed. But it's not enforced. We have a lot of bills, we have a lot of laws, we have our policy. It's not for want of, it's not that we don't know what to do. We just need champions.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 50:47

I think we really just need champions to to drive um to just push us to the finish line.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

I just saw a cape appear at the back of your clothes, a cape. So I think that you should uh champion this thing. Super girl. Okay, so we've talked about IP for physical products, and looking at you know, this day and age, um, I was thinking about more digital products. So let's say music, for instance, back in the day, and copyright enforcement would have been on CDs.

SPEAKER_03 51:24

If I now is MP4, we don't do CDs anymore. Oh, MP4, yes. So we we when we register copyright now, we don't we don't it used to be that we would get your CD. That the copyright commissioner doesn't do CD anymore. We would take your MP3 MP4.

SPEAKER_04 51:37

So what I wanted to ask is what is the main difference in the way enforcement is being done now for those seeking intellectual property protection in the digital space?

SPEAKER_03 51:53

Oh, absolutely. I mean, we had a domain name case where literally, so there's nothing really, there's no product. Just it's the name. Uh yeah, and it was being copied and um we enforced it. We did mediation. It was through mediation. We sat down and you know, going back and forth, and ultimately it was mediation. And through mediation, we're able to sort it out. You didn't have a right to it. Well, oh, I didn't know, okay, ignorance is no, it's not um an excuse. And so we did all of that. Now, with fashion, for instance, you find that it's quicker to enforce now, it's easier to find. I don't need to go into rule one, uh, shop B in one fast state to find you. You're leaving your digital footprint. So it's easy for me to find you when you're copying. It's easier than um I had to go and find you in your studio and all of that. So, with obviously AI, we can't go away without speaking about AI. Now everything is done like that.

SPEAKER_04 52:59

I've just heard something, sorry, about um this singer um Shake It Off, what's her name? Swift. She's gone to copyright her voice because there's a lot of AI out there. So it was just to make sure, and her looks, her image as well. Yes, because of AI. So that's going to be the new age type of absolute digitization.

SPEAKER_03 53:24

You remember when I talked about getting access to digitization. The same way we're using the digital market to promote, it also means that the counterfeiter, the infringer is also using the is using digital. So, how can I why will I enforce a right that is being infringed digitally in real life? It makes no sense. So we're gonna have to, you know. So it means that I have to keep learning. Yes. So my uh 1993 Masters is obsolete. It's just that it's good for paper, but I have to be up to date. Yes. You come into my office and I ask you, so how good are you with how comfortable are you with AI? Um, I had a member of my team on saying, ah, this AI is that same. Let me tell you, my friend, if you know what's good for you, because oh, but copyright issues, yes, we know. Now, copyright issues, I mean, there are things that lawyers can do now whereby literally I can run my practice from my room. I don't need to have a full team, I can get everything I want online, but it also means that it's for good, it's also you know the other way. So you have to be savvy. We are having to use traditional IP rights to enforce non-traditional ways of expressing those rights. So the law has to catch up very quickly, which is why when we talk about laws being passed, it used to be that oh, a literary work as in a book. Not anymore. I mean, I can I can write a book, I can sit down. I have you seen how quick we're all writing books now. Do you think we're all writing those books? You know, of course we're using technology, but I always say, look, um, rather than go in there and say, write a book for me on, please get your idea for you to get your copyright, at least to get some writing. Get your at least develop something. Yes, have something original, and then you can now improve, you know, on it as opposed to just copy, paste, especially students. I know there are things we used to trace. I mean, I had I had interns who just I said that letter was quick. I said, you know how I know your letter is AI. Firstly, this is not the language of our firm, so this is not how we write here. So go and pick up a file, go and read how we write, then write a letter, and then let's let's discuss it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:00

Okay, your final question. Yes. You were named Practitioner of the Year in 2023 by Managing IP, and you are globally recognized as one of the top 250 women in IP. You have built and protected brands for three decades. When the next generation of IP practitioners in Africa look back at this era, the era you helped shape, what do you want them to say was different? Because you were here. Not just about the firm, but about what became possible for African creators and entrepreneurs in terms of their relationship with what they build.

SPEAKER_03 56:45

Wow, thank you. I think I want the next generation to say this era, because this I don't think we, you know how we say it's a golden era. I think really it's a platinum era, if there's even something better than that. I think they should say, look, this was the era when African creators stopped being consumers of other people's ideas and started owning their own. So we copy so well, but when you copy, you you create something and then you put that brand on it because you don't feel you're not confident enough to put your name on it. For them to begin to own those ideas. I think that that for me, um, I want them to say, you know, we built a culture, I want them to say we us, our generation, built a culture where protecting your work was normal as opposed to being the exception and not optional, you know. I want them to be able to say that African brands became global, not by accident, but by strategy. That we shifted from imitation to innovation.

unknown 57:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 57:56

I think for me, if somebody in 10 years' time, 20 years, can look back and say, you know what? This woman's work helped open that door, even a teeny weeny bit, then you know the 30 years have been worth it. I think that that's it for me.

SPEAKER_04 58:12

And that will surely pass.

SPEAKER_03 58:14

Amen.

SPEAKER_04 58:16

Lara, it's been such a pleasure, it's been a masterclass. We should pay for this. Thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. I hope you had fun. I did. And then we hope that we will continue these conversations. Very essential.

SPEAKER_03 58:30

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This was awesome.

SPEAKER_04 58:38

Guys, I hope you found that very insightful. I certainly did. There are many of us who think that IPs do not relate to us, they don't relate to what we're building, um, they only relate to large organizations and corporates who are selling very big products, but they relate to your idea that is expressed. Once your idea is out there, it can be copied. So we need to be in a space where our ideas can be protected. And that is what intellectual property protection does. When you know the value of your idea is protected, you can collaborate freely. So this goes out to all of you building out there, whether it's physical or digital, take it seriously. Listen to what Lara has said. She's been doing it for over 30 years. It's been a pleasure as always, and thank you so much for listening in. Goodbye.