DC Snipers Part Two

This week, we’re continuing the story of the D.C. snipers and stepping back to understand how it all began.

In Part Two, we dig into the background of how they crossed paths, and the unsettling bond that formed between them. We’ll talk through the wild, disturbing plans that were built along the way, and our attempt to untangle the real motivation behind the spree that terrorized an entire region. It’s a look at manipulation, control, and ideology, and how those forces spiralled into real world violence.

But at least we also talk about how they were stopped. 

So grab something warm, settle in, and join two girls who are still winging it and nervously laughing where we can, as we try to make sense of how this case unfolded, and why the D.C. snipers still haunt public memory today.

Transcript

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welcome to Kill the Mood podcast. We are here to talk to you about everything. Spooky Doy. There will be lots of true crime, but also just general mysteries. Some will be solved and some will leave you hanging. We're just two girls put in the world to writes, but not really. We just like yapping. I'd also like to add that we are not professionals, just two ladies who apparently like the sound of their own voices enough to record them and believe that you will too. So we mean no offense in anything we say. We like a huge percentage of the world, find all of this unfathomable and this is just our own little way of trying to make sense of the senseless. So without further ado, this week's subject is the DC snipers part two. Two, but two. Two, but two. Oh God. I'm frazzled. No, I'm fine. Good little face slab. Yes. So last week's was a big one. We went through the spree killing of the DC snipers. And then we went into a little bit of background of one of the shooters, which was 17-year-old at the time. And we learned it was a bleak childhood. Yes. Lee Malvo and he had quite bleak childhood. We're not telling you anymore because you should have listened to it. Because this will no highlights here. There we go. You can't skip. Yeah. This will not make any sense if you have not listened to last week's episode. But yeah, let's jump right in. Let's straight back to the blink. We're going into it. We're not fucking about Yeah. You don't need to hear us yap. Right now, do you? Yeah. You don't want to. No. I don't want to. I'm sure we will at some point. Yeah. So Lee was at home sick, dying. Basically, Uma had gone off to the us His mom had gone off to start a life. She'd left him. He was poor. John. Alan Mohamed basically showed up at his door, took him to hospital, saved his life. Yeah. Debt of, for whatever good that will do. Yeah. None. None at all. No offense, but probably would've been better if we just let him die. Yeah. Or just left him alone after he saved him. Would've been the perfect outcome. Would've been, to be honest, would've been the perfect outcome. But yeah. So around this time obviously he's healing. He's moved. They've basically, John has moved him into his house in Antigua. He's been like, stay here to get better. You shouldn't have to go back to that shack. I will help you. And obviously Malvo is like completely Yeah. Indebted to him. Sold his soul. Yeah. I would say already from the get go, but whatever. John Allen Mohammed also told Lee Malvo about all of his past experiences, which was super similar to Mal v's. Own experiences. So they got like to this like fate has brought us together. Dependency mentality, height. Yeah. Okay. That can only really lead to terrible things usually does. Yeah. Men get together. Terrible things happen. I think he tells him about my dad left me too. And my mom was a piece of shit to me and, I had to make my own life and I got out and I did all of this stuff that like, probably is through Malvo saying, oh, my dad left. And him being like, my dad left and, like manipulating whatever trauma. Malvo is feeling confident enough to talk to him about, to work for his own advantage. He moves, yeah. So they move in with him and Mohamed's children, and the children start referring to Malvo as like his, their brothers, like quite quickly. Okay. And it gets full on like really quickly. So Mohamed would say that Malvo was his eldest. Okay. That had come to live with him. Yeah. Like in the local village or whatever. So he was a brother to the children and no one really questioned this. I've got an absolute fear right now of him being abused, and I'm hoping that doesn't happen. No, I, what I know. Emotional abuse. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I'm certain of that. No, he, but right now. I know they're gonna do terrible things, but at the very fucking least, I hope this stays like a father-son relationship. It's emotional abuse. Fucking okay. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for putting me out on my misery because I was starting to feel terribly sick. Yeah, it's like the, it's just really Yeah. Fucking nasty shit. Yeah. But there's no physical or sexual abuse. Good. Apparently there's one time where he like hits him or something and they like never speak about it ever again. And it's like really shook to the core of moment. Yeah. But I didn't find out much. So at least for a moment he had a family. This is so he's living his best life. Yeah. Like he was left with no one, and then now he's got like this guy that's running about the town saying, my son, my boy, my eldest son, he's got three younger brothers they're like besie mates as well. So like he would. They would go to the gym that it was a bit like, we'll go on to understand why they were doing this every single day, but they would go to the gym in the day. And then they'd run in the night and they'd go to a shooting range, which was obviously quite a key thing. But I think at the start it was just like, who masculine boys, lads, things doing let's do like loads of, I'll be your PT and we'll get you fit and ready for being a man, and all of this stuff. And let's go. You've never shot a gun before. Like you haven't lived. Let's go to the shooting range and go and shoot some shit and get out at anger. And, sorry, you've probably already said this. How old is he at this point? 15. 15, cool. Yeah. He's 15, so it only takes two years for them to get from there to there. Yeah. So to their neck. Yeah. He's just which means it's always been part of the plan. Oh God, yeah. This is actually thinking about it now that you say that. A wild amount of shit to happen in two years. Yeah. That really is. I would like, but it's 2000 that UMO moves to America. So yeah, he's 15. I would half expect that. Like it's that yeah, he starts the grooming process at 15 and like we were talking about when maybe he was like in his twenties. 'Cause they'd been together for a really long time. Yeah. And maybe that's when he'd like, got him to like peak physical, but I dunno. Yeah. And I think this maybe the aspect of the love bombing is what makes it like so intense. Yeah. So fast, so quickly. I don't really know. But they like, but obviously what no one realizes though this was training. For something a lot bigger. I did. Yeah. No one in Antigua. Yeah. Yeah, no one questioned it. They were just like, oh, LA John and his son that he's not seen in 15 years or whatever is like now legging it round the block and they're doing loads of fun training and they're just like, bro. John, something specifically to note as well is that John Mohammed would always talk to Lee Malvo about his hidden rage that he must have inside from having such a bad childhood. Okay. It's that seems healthy. It's a grooming technique. Definitely. Because he's saying do you not feel the rage inside of you from your mom and like what she's done to you and like your dad leaving you and like the world's a mess and this society is fucked and the fact that we are, if we want to go to America to start a life, we're immigrants and we have to do this illegally and don't you feel all this rage? And there's quite a big argument here. It's not an argument in my opinion, but there was no rage. Yeah. He invented this rage and he needed something to be, there was trauma for sure off. Yeah. But he's, and trauma can be turned into rage. But that seems exactly what John is doing right now. Exactly. Is turning the sadness and the rejection and the hurt into anger. Into anger and he's training him up physically, but he's also trying to create a really angry, very interesting that the rages directed at the us it's. It is not really about, it's mainly about like why does, do you have to depend on your parents to that have let you down to you can be your own and like why is there that we got basically It's nonsensical. It's nonsensical. Yeah. But what he's doing is he's trying to like make a young, physically strong and quite intelligent man. Boy, I say boy, boy, he's trying to, as that boy is developing, use his trauma to be angry at the world for what has happened to him. Yeah. Because like his hidden rage, like his inner rage is, anyway, I think like he, he was just being egged on basically. what Malvo didn't know is actually Mohamed had just come from Washington, DC to Antigua as he had kidnapped his three children due to an ongoing custody battle. I literally 10 minutes ago, almost said, where's their mom? And then I thought hey, now you, that's not sad. Slow down horse. Slow down the year of the horse. Slow down. She slowed down. I fucking boom. Gathering away with the story. Bring her back, lad. We were a couple of laps behind. Okay. Yes. So he'd actually kidnapped his three kids due to an honor. Also, I was sat here being like, how the fuck did this man serve if this happening to, I was like, if he's born and raised from in Antigua, how the fuck is he serve? Now? It all makes sense. He just answered all my questions you want. So Mohamed isn't Jamaican, Jamaica? Yeah, he's in Antigua because he's kidnapped his kids and taken them from Washington, DC and he's gone to Antigua to hide out, because he's got a custody battle going on with his ex-wife at the time, and she had a restraining order against him and was very likely going to win the custody battle. Yeah. And so he pinched the kids. Yeah. So currently no one knows where the fuck he is. Somewhat sad, I have to say. Yes. I do have to say, I don't know what, I don't know what his relationship was with her. But I guess maybe she would've let him see the kids. But there's a certain level of sadness to the fact that she wouldn't have, by the way. Oh, okay. She had a restraining order against him. She was like, I'm getting these kids, and you'll never, ever see them again. It sound it doesn't sound like he was a terrible dad. No. I think he, I don't, yeah. Didn't wanna lose his kids. Yeah, for sure. I'm not saying he should have kidnapped them. I'm really not saying that. No. I think it's, people that don't go on to do this stuff that still would kidnap, not kidnap, kidnapped. Yeah, no, kidnapped their child. Just to be like, I can't bear to, I literally watched a documentary the other day about this woman, about this man that helps people kidnap their kids back from kids that have been kidnapped. Yeah. Yeah. And I watched it was specifically about, woman. A black woman in the US whose kid had been taken to South Korea Oh my God. By his dad and was living in South Korea and was a black kid in South Korea getting horribly bullied. Yeah. Having a horrible time, not understanding where his mom was. And they, she and this guy went into South Korea and fucking napped the kid back. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Fucking mad. All mad. Anyway, sorry. That is so crazy. But this is what I mean he's clearly just been like no, you don't take my children. Like he's a piece of shit to his wife, which we'll go on to talk about. Oh, okay. That makes sense. I think he is, he's taking them because he's terrified of losing his kids. Losing his kids. Yeah. So like from a dad perspective, like he wasn't doing anything. Creepy to them, and he wasn't abusing them, beating shut out his wife. Yeah. To be fair, I don't actually know what was going on with his wife, but his wife is so terrified of him. Yeah. That you can then you can only, yeah. And there's, if I started going into her fucking out, I barely even go into fucking John Hamed. I just fucking hate this man. Yeah, that's So I was just like, you know what? You need to know what you need to know. But Lee Malvo is the one that's it's, he's the one with the story that probably needs to be told. Yeah. That needs to be told and needs to be dissected because of how he got there. Yeah. Yeah. So he didn't know that. His mom was still in the us she was working in Florida and she actually married an American to try and get her visa sorted. She was earning some money and she was actually hoping to fly malva over to the us when she had enough to move him in with her. So I think they'd been like writing to each other or whatever and was like, how not? It makes a change considering she was leaving him with no electric and no food. Honestly, bro. She was like, and now you're like, oh, I will pay for a flight and I will fly you out. Yeah. And I think I don't know, maybe she'd been like, who the fuck is this guy pretending to be your dad? Yeah. I'm gonna step up. I dunno, hopefully. She still is a shithead. Yeah. And she does more shithead things. Okay. But at this, I think she's just I'm married, I'm earning money. It's not actually going too bad. I did say, I get you, so I should probably get you. Yeah. Okay. John Mohammed was actually getting in trouble around this time in Antigua for something He was, he had a scheme of getting people into America and he'd gone into hiding because he's obviously like forging documents and stuff, which is how he's getting people into the US Yeah. From Antigua. It's a great, this man is fucking carnage because you've just kidnapped three of your kids. One man, you think you lay low. I know. Don't start a fucking think. He just always has to be doing something illegal. He's got a fucking taste for it. He can't stop literal. Instead of him just like getting a job down at the offie. Yeah. He's been like, shut the fuck up. Yeah, I know. Just keeping your head down and trying to. Yeah, look after your kids such, even in Antia, such Gayles, he's just notoriously like a scammer that's just like constantly. Yeah. I don't know, but yeah, he's, God's not my dad. Is it your dad? No. It could be. I, and that's the plot twist for this week. Yeah, he'd gone into hiding in Antigua for a bit to lay low. Yeah. Obviously not. He'd left Malvo with the three kids. What? So now he's thanks for moving in with me. And Malvo is I'm indebted to you. I dunno what you mean? I thank you. And he is thanks for saying that. Look after my kids. Yeah. Training him up and teaching all of this. Feel you're inner rage. Fuck the system like me. And then he's actually, could you just watch the kids for a bit? Because I'm in a bit of shit. I've got myself into a bit of a pickle. Yeah. So I think he'd had enough. So he, so Matt Hamed decided to move all of them to the us. Yeah, sure. Great idea. Let's go back to where the problem started. So he moves them all to the us. Mohamed had obviously lost the custody battle for the kids. Yeah. So when they move back, he enrolls them in school. Yeah. Smart. I, my guess is he doesn't even try and give them fake names. He just goes fucking whole ham straight back in. Yeah. And thinks that he won't be found even though the. The mom has full custody. She didn't know where the kids were. Yeah. And then they literally just pop up in school in the US fucking idiot. And then his wife takes the kids back and she immediately moves to a completely secret location and she ditches everyone that she fucking knows. Fair enough. She's got a sister. Which we'll come on to talk about in a bit, but she's goodbye. Yeah. You are a twat. I dunno where the fuck you've been. You've fucked up my kids, my custody. I'm terrified of you. Goodbye. And she makes a statement later on where she says, I feared for my life what he would do. That's fair. If he found me. Yeah. So she says it's for her own protection. She knows, he like, I think she knows he wouldn't hurt the kids but he would tell her he would kill her to get them back. So she leaves during this time Uma also finds out that Malvo is in the US and she's what the fuck are you doing here? Give me my, and she says to Mohamed I'm taking my son back. Which is crazy because like when, have you ever cared? Yeah. Why is it he's willingly not wanting to live with you anymore. Yeah. And I thought the fact that you beat him meant that you didn't care. Abusers are so weird. Yeah. I think it's just she's but I was doing all of this for you. It's when a kid plays with a toy and then the kids who whose toy it is literally like, you can't have that. I was playing with it and it's you haven't touched it for three years. Yeah, exactly. And I think with her as well, she was beating him and she was constantly making him study. So I assume potentially he was gonna make her someone the living like she was turning him into whatever he was gonna be, and if she doesn't keep him close and she loses track of him, then all of that beating and pushing him around. And he's now getting to an age where he might actually have some value at work. Yeah. And if she was the one with the plan yeah. So basically she is I want you to come back. And he's no. So she threatens to call the police on them because they're, they're illegally. Okay. Even though isn't shit, she's hit there a little bit. I'd be like, fucking un reverse bitch. Yeah. Um, Reverse um, reverse um, reverse bitch. Yeah. And but Mohammed is no go. You have to go. Yeah. Go to your mom. persevere. Yeah. And like we'll get there also. She'll get bored of you in five minutes. Yeah, exactly. Just go and keep the peace and like we can be reunited when I've sorted my shit out. Him sorting his shit out is him just searching for his ex-wife, basically. So that's what he's getting up to. I'm glad he doesn't find her. I think he is living in a, like a. Homeless shelter, but I think it's a Christian, I think he's like hopping between them. So he's Muslim. So he's staying in like a Muslim homeless shelter and then he'll go to a Christian homeless shelter and then he's just like dotting about and he doesn't really have a place to call home. Yeah. Which is why it's so hard to find him right. In the future. But Malvo goes back to Uma Like whatever. And they hatch a plan that this will only be a temporary thing. And like also he's 15 and I guess he can just go there and like just fuck about until he's Yeah, until the time's. Somehow. I don't know how, but he gets enrolled in school. I don't know how, I guess if you've got fake documents. Yeah. I think at one point there's like a How are you here mate? Because you are like documents. I don't know. Yeah. There was something. There was a lot. I was reading a lot at this point. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. But he's in school. Yeah. And there's something going on where he's kicking off in school. He's so another complete side note, which I think we'll also go on to talk about, is that he grew up as a Christian. In Jamaica. Yeah. But Mohamed is Muslim. Yeah. And has been like, really, they've been like listening to like Malcolm X and like all of this like really high and like Muslim activist speakers stuff and being very like, this is the way that the world works. And he's in a Christian school and I think he's like kicking off a little bit. Yeah. And he's saying like really scandalous things on like quite important Christian days Yeah. In the school. And people are like, whoa, don't be saying that stuff about Islam and, back the fuck off. That's not what we believe. And then. There's some question about his documents because he's just causing kind of an uproar and I think he's trying to get like other people to be like, to join him, basically. Okay. So he's clearly gone away, gone away from being this kid that just wants to knuckle down and study and be a pilot. Now he's coming back and like wreaking havoc a little bit and being like doing a bit of what John would do. Yeah. Like why are we Christian? Have you ever thought about Islam? Have you ever thought about being a Muslim? Blah blah. Being like really Yeah. Intense in another religion, which when you've grown up as a Christian in Jamaica, like his mom's like the fuck sir. Yeah. Because I think it's all kicking off. And then one night in September, Mohamed calls Malvo and told him to sneak away from his moms and come and live with him. So he did it. And he arrived in Washington Bellingham to be precise. And that is where he enrolls in high school again. I dunno how he's doing this. Yeah. John Mohammed was living in a homeless shelter. So why have you told him to come and live with you? This is where John's quote unquote plan is beginning Okay. Is coming into action. But you don't have a home john starts teaching Lee after school more and more about shooting. Yeah. They're constantly going to shooting ranges. They play loads of video games together where you are a sniper. They watch sniper movies on repeat. They're like laying on thick. Like his whole embodiment is like watching people from a distance Yeah. Target practice. Really like it's becoming his whole personality. And also thinking this behavior is a lot more common than it actually is when you're surrounded by it so much. He used to teach Lee Malvo a lot about African American history, specifically Elijah Muhammad, who was an American religious leader in the 1930s who led the nation of Islam. He was also trying to instill a hatred of white people, specifically into malvo for everything they had done to African Americans and moved so fucking interesting. Then the lack of victim profile that you cho chose to kill black people. the hypocrisy of these men? Yes. At the start it's it sounds like he's being like, we should rid. The America of white Americans. Yeah. 'cause of what they've done to African Americans. Yeah. And Muslims specifically throughout history, but in a violent and hateful way. He's doing it instead of educating him about Muslim culture Yeah. Or about African American history in, or even just showing him religious leaders. He's like being like, and this is all the fault of white people. Yeah. He's twisting it to feel hatred. Hatred. Which brings back to before when he was saying like, find your inner rage and target the people of America. Now he's really going into that whole like, but there's a specific it. He is, he's really got a big plan. So here we go again with the back and forth of Una. At this point she is I don't like America. I don't like that you are hanging out with this weird guy. I don't like that. It's back and forth. I want to go home. But she ref fucking right? Yeah. Fucking wild. She's it's not working. I'm not rich. I'm not happy. I'm going home. You are coming with me. Yeah. And she needs her son back. So she fucking rings immigration on both of them and rats, her and her son out for being in America illegally. And in January of 2002, both Una and Malvo were taken to a safe house whilst deportation actions are in the process of being made against them to take them back to the Caribbean. She's a, she's fucking wild. That is so fucking mad. Do you know what props to. She had a plan. She made it work. She thought she's a little grass was greener. What is gonna happen? So if I have to leave, I have to pay for a flight out of here and he has to pay for a flight out of here and that's expensive and I just wanna fuck off her. So I know ice are you fucking crazy. And like we were just living in a shack before anyway. So even if they kick us off and they're like, fuck I'll see you later. Don't go. We'll just start again as we've always done. That's absolutely, yeah. Prop to she's affected. You gotta give a girl credit. Credit. She's made him study his whole entire life. And then she is the one that gets him onto the police system. Yeah. Which is why in the future when all of this goes on, they find his fingerprints because his own mom called immigration on him. Just because she was like, no, I'm saying we are going home, honey. And what I say goes, una, you're a legend. You're a legend. So fucking crazy. You saw the problem and you found the solution. That is so funny that you are like, you don't wanna pay for a trip, do you don't wanna pay for flight? Do you know what? Absolutely crazy that is. Fucking the devil works hard. The UNA works harder. So whilst they are in this safe house, Malvo sneaks out of the window one night and goes back to John after this. They are in hiding. Yeah. And they cannot be located. So they're just like running around everywhere. The training, quote unquote, ramps up and the leads to the events that happened in that fateful September in 2002 actually begin to unfold. So that is why they probably, it probably happened at this age. Yes. Because it probably upped the timeline. Yes. Because they were about to get taken back. To Antigua. To Antigua. And I think as well, like through all of this, like the inner rage, he's like, why do Americans get to deport me? Yeah. Why is my mom abusing me Still? Yeah, I'm a man and I'm strong and I have rights and I love Islam and all of this stuff. And it's just so intense and like I can just imagine them like, like amping each other up and just like watching sniper films and being like, this is how it should be done. This is how we should take out Americans like Dad. Dad. Just every night just drilling it into this kid's head. Yeah. And obviously he's angry because he is angry at the world, but then there's this threat of him being like, oh, you don't have any rights to stay here. You have to go home because your mom says so. And because I say so and you have to take away the only thing that. He's known as a real family yeah. Yeah. And whether that's right or not. Yeah. That's also, you've got John spiraling in the corner because he is got PTSD and he's had his kids taken off him. He can't find his wife and he's fuming. Oh yeah. Like he's absolutely fuming at the world. And it's so interesting to go into why he, but imagine what he would've turned those kids into. Yeah. Oh God. Yeah. So terrifying. So just before the actual spree killing commences, there's a few things that need to be cleared up. First of all, Malvo has been doing a lot of shooting trees and playing games and getting in touch with his inner rage, but he hasn't actually shot a person. Two. John is feeling like he can manipulate Malvo and do whatever he wants at this point, but again, feels like the plans and ideas in his head will need to have some practice. First and thirdly, John Mohamed is extremely fuming at his ex-wife for taking his children and hiding them from him. Yeah. However, he doesn't know where she is now. He was in the Gulf War, which I don't know much about. Nope. But I read a bit about it and at this point I was 10 pages in. Yeah. And I thought that's the story for another time. Hey, this is not a fucking history podcast, but Robert Holmes was also in the war with him. Yeah. Or in the army with him. So this is like how they knew each other. He was in the Gulf War and. It sounds horrible, like as all wars do, but apparently more people died by suicide after serving than people actually died in the war. Oh, no. So whatever was happening, I think it's a war that happened in the air mostly. Okay. Okay. And that, I don't know what, like I just, I don't know. I would've thought something like fucking Vietnam when there was literal gorilla warfare. Yeah. And like they were setting like fucking traps. The most horrendous traps you've ever seen in your life. Yeah. Yeah. An Agent orange. An agent orange. Oh my God. Yeah. I would've thought that would've caused I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a quick Google of golf. Yeah. I think it's, I don't know how, because I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is, but I just read a thing whilst reading it, is that there was loads of Air War. Fuck airport. Fucking hell. Two wars. It was triggered by Iraq's Evasion, invasion of Kuwait. Yeah. Leading to a US led UN coalition Decisive military intervention. Oh my God. We should watch an episode of Disney's Animated series. Gravity Falls about a mini golf showdown and that Oh my. Tells you about the golf war. God, gravity falls. I love. Incredible. 10 out 10 show. Do you know, show, do you know gumball? Did you ever watch Gumball? They just put it on Netflix. Bits of it. Yeah. It's so good. Yeah. Yeah. There is such bangers out there, like the intelligence of some Oh, simple cartoons God, it was 2014. No. What? No, it wasn't. Not possibly. It was 1990 to 1991. Not very long war there. Yeah. I think it was like a short, terrifying thing that a lot of people came out of and then died by suicide because it was, whatever happened, it was harrowing times. So I said, why was it so bad? And it said it was brutal. Why war so bad? Why was war so bad? So it was brutal due to overwhelming military disadvantage, poor training, outdated Soviet tech versus advanced coalition tech. And low morale. So devastating coalition air superiority. Yeah. And the sheer destructive power unleashed leading to massive Iraqi military losses. Yes. I knew that. The Iraq, yeah. So basically it was really bad because they, I must have been like killing untrained Yeah. Young people. Yeah. And then a lot of people just died in Iraq and that's, and he was in that. Yeah. Okay. And a lot of people he knew Yeah. Were in that were either killed or then they were there. Yeah. Died by suicide afterwards. So I think it was like a really extremely harrowing time for him. Yeah. Assumingly where, so he was in the military for 16 years. Remember? That's a long old time. And he ended up with PTSD after the Gulf War. Yeah, I think this is probably where a lot of anger towards America, specifically white Americans. Yeah, I think that's probably his PTSD kicked in and, it just all went really downhill. Yeah. For him. From there, Uhhuh he got heavily involved in credit card and immigration document fraud, hence how he met Lee Malvo. And that's also how he stole his children away so easily to a different country. Yeah. Anyway, his plan with Lee Malvo was to kill a lot more than they ended up killing like a fucking lot more. More. And tell us what their final, so the start goal? Yeah. For when they started the spree killing was 100 people a week. Barking? Hell. Oh, I think it, no, sorry. I think it started with 25 people a week. Yeah. Which would've been a hundred a month. Yeah. Okay. And then it was a hundred a week. Jesus. As they got more country, as they ramped up better. I don't know. I suppose it's as they made, oh, it sounds so awful, but like more kill shots. As opposed to the goal was to literally decrease population vibes, but fucking hell. Like also that's a very big boy target because America's fucking massive. He also wanted to make a statement of killing children and pregnant women to make sure that he was saying anyone is on the cards. Fucking, how they wanted to kill thousands of people of all different backgrounds to make a statement they wanted to then get he, but sorry, I'm saying they, but that this was his plan for him and Lee Malvo. Wanted to get $10 million through threatening the police and American governments and use the money to start their own black colony in different environments and climates. And then they wanted to send. 70. This is like a quote, 70 black boys and 70 black girls back into civilization to change the world for the better. Under their beliefs, opinions, religions. Stop fucking sucking yourself off. It is it's so ridiculous. Are you fucking kidding? Also, the fact that they're listening to like things from Elijah Mohammed and they're listening to like Malcolm X, lead like people that are leaders. Yeah. Are leaders, charismatic people. They haven't even done, like you couldn't even convince your wife to let you have your kids. Yeah. Fuck off. They haven't even done any public speaking. No. Do you know what I mean? Like they're just, and I bet it wouldn't go well if they did. Yeah. And because he's groomed a child who is so indebted to him, that is the only reason why Lee Malvo is like. Okay. Yeah. I like the fucking audacity of this man. I don't know who you think you are. Yeah. But you are not that you are not the leader that you think you are. You have manipulated a child that was neglected and had nobody, and yet you think that you can fucking stand up in a colony and what be successful and like what, you literally have been jumping from homeless shelter to homeless shelter since you moved to the us. Yeah. Honestly. And like why do you think that you are gonna Yeah. Just 'cause you know how to get from antia to the US it does not mean that you'd be able to restart a part of the human race. And just because you've managed to groom a child Yeah. Doesn't mean that you are, have the charisma to lead. Yeah. And I think the specific people that he would send back into civilization would be like military trained. Young adults that would go back in and reset everything and be like, these are the rules you follow and this is the, do you know what I mean? Yeah. Fucking beyond impossible. What was, I would also like to say, fucking stupid. If you think that 10 million is enough to set up a colony, what do you want about, but and like also the fact that they started shooting people and then he called the hotline and said, hi, it's me the sniper. Can I have 10 million now? And they said, no, you're not the sniper. Go away. I've got more important things to do. Yeah. And it's oh, that was your big plan. Was it to restart part of human race? Are you joking me? And then what you thought they, they would just be like, yeah, it doesn't matter that this man was like just in our country and killed thousands of people. Yeah. We will not retaliate with the literal billions of pounds that we control and armies. Yeah. Yeah. Also I like, I don't want to be a massive dickhead, but you only you only killed 10 people and then you demanded 10 million. Yeah. Like it's still horrifying what you did. It's, and I'm not okay with it, but yeah. 25 people a week. Yeah. Didn't even do that. No. And now you're still being like, oh, let's move with phase two, where we get $10 million from the US government, and then you just ring a hotline and you're like, please. And they're like no. Yes, you are a spree killer. And we are worried, but no. Yeah. Just he's be somewhere else. This man is completely somewhere else. What are I gonna do? You are out and about. We don't know who you are at this point. And we are gonna, you are asking for 10 mil, so you are just a spree, like we don't get anything out giving you 10 mil. You're just a spree killer who's out there with 10 mil. Yep. Yep. It's just beyond done, fucking done. It's so Ill thought through, but it's also so terrifying that's where his mind has elaborately gone to. Yeah. Like this I don't know. And like obviously there's like a debate here from from being in a Muslim society, in a Muslim family, like Malvo coming into his life and witnessing that and because he is had a Christian background and Mohammed was Muslim, he pushed this Islamic background onto him and watching something that is quite common in Muslim families is having a big family and lots of people all around you and. Not only is Mohammed selling that to Malvo Yeah. In the a close knit community. So saying, we'll get the kids back and we'll start our own family. He's also saying, what if we had everyone? Yeah. You'll have your own community and everyone will love and care about Islam and we'll be this huge and huge support of Islam. Not we do that. We'll then send people back into places like the US and they'll show everyone how it's done properly. Yeah. And like then we will control everything. And it's like you have to be mentally ill to think that is a real plan. Yeah. Because it's not. Yeah. And that's a delusion also. You think you're just doing it with you and your 17-year-old mate that you've just groomed for two years. Yeah. Like it is so beyond belief, but this is what Malvo later says that sorry. I just love the thought of Una, just like still in the safe house. Chilling. Yeah. Door closed. Doesn't know doesn't know. Her son's gone and ham's like right door, the plan is we kill a thousand people and he's we're gonna start our own colleague. And it just cuts to Una and she's I think we, she's just looking out the window like, I'm gonna go home. Yeah. It's it's baffling. Yeah. I am baffled. When I was reading into this, I was like, I'm baffled mate. Yeah. And this is obviously a very long spread plan. Yeah. It's not being like, oh, September we kill some people. Yeah. October we start a new colony. Yeah. That's not what is happening but it feels like that because he killed 10 people and then said, give me 10 mil. He is just not thinking this through. No. And this was like, basically this is what Malvo later on tells the police that. John Mohammed has told him is the bigger picture. So he's it would've taken us a very long time. But that was what his goal was and that's what he, we would sit up at night and fucking pillow talk about. I don't know, it's just absolutely wild kicking their little feet. Yeah. Tell me again about the economy. Yeah, so I don't know. It's, yeah, I don't know. I don't even know what else to say. Yeah, fair enough. But Malvo was like, sure, let's see if that works. And. They probably let some of this slip to their ex-army mate, Robert Holmes, who is like, what the fuck dude? What's going on there then? Yeah. And alongside this bigger picture, like this end goal that he's got over the next I don't know, his five year plan or whatever. Mohammed obviously has his little side quest as well, and that was to rid his lifey of his wifey. And to do that, they had to find her. Yeah. And if he kept up with this elaborate plan, no one would link it to him because he had killed so many other people. I just don't think that's true. So how, like, how would they know that the main victim in all of this? Like the, he said, yeah, he was trying to basically disguise, he said Kill at random, kill anyone and everyone but definitely kill her. Yeah. She was the only real victim. Yeah. That they actually specifically targeted almost like he did all of it just to cover up that he wanted it. Oh, do you know? And if I'm completely honest, there's a debate. I don't think that, I don't think there's anything that would've stopped him. I don't think that he would've made her death quick though. No, I do not. For a second believe that she would've been shot at her distance and that would've been the end of it. No, that man would want to her to know. Yeah. Yeah. It was him. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And oh, it's so messed up. And like obviously he's saying we can't just go and kill her. Obviously because they dunno where she is, but like even if we do, we can't just kill her. Yeah. So we have to kill at least a few other people before we kill her. But we can at least just make it look like, but it's just so crazy how they had a plan to kill thousands and thousands of people, but they only had one victim. Yeah. Specifically they only had one target specifically the whole entire time. I assume Uma would've been one of them eventually, Hey, she's in Antigua. The art, the inner rage. You didn't get into her. You have to finish the inner rage. I'm sure that she would've come up at some point like, yeah, I'm sure. She's just still ringing him every week. Bitch, go. Where are you? You've gotta respect her game. You really do. That's such a piece of shit. You're like, yeah. And she like, I respect her. I do. I've got a somewhat of a respect for her. So according to him according to Malvo, John Hammed said this plan was foolproof. Yeah. I literally can't think of a single reason why that wouldn't work. It's the complete opposite. Yeah. Foolproof. It's literally anything but foolproof. So we need to scroll on back to the start of 2002 when they are really getting ramped up for this spree killing. It was the 16th of February, 2002 when 21-year-old Kenia and Nicole Cook was changing her baby's diaper. And she hears a knock at the door. She heads to the door, she opens it and sees a man stood on her doorstep. He shoots her point blank in the head with a single 45 caliber shot, and she dies immediately. This lady was actually the niece of isla Nichols, who was a close friend of Mohammed and his ex-wife Mildred. Okay. So he has got targets then. Yeah. So basically, so he starts now. What he's doing is this is, so what he's basically doing is he's making malvo kill people until he gets good enough to go on a spree killing. Yes. But he's this is the closest I have to my wife. Yeah. That's also still far enough away. Yes. That no one will suspect that it was me, will suspect that it was me. Because it's not even like you're doing the sister, it's not like you're doing a mate, you're doing a niece of a mate of a family friend. But some connection and like maybe he thinks that the ripple fear will get to her. Yeah. And she'll know. And it's later discovered that Malvo was actually told by Mohammed to knock on the door and shoot whoever answers because this is sending a message to his ex-wife, even though at the same time he doesn't want it to be linked back to him. I don't know. He's spiraling. I think. No, the intended culprit was Isla, but Malvo was literally told to shoot whoever answers the door. But it was her. It was her. And also stupid. Yes. But is practice for Malvo to kill. Yeah, because he's never shot a person to death before. So they're just saying. I've got a slight link to my wife might roll her up, might freak her out. Don't I? Go and shoot her in the face, right? Yeah. On her front doorstep. On the front doorstep. She's for no reason, while's changing her baby's nappy and he does it. Yeah. I think he was like very overwhelmed, but he did it. It was not linked to the DC snipers until after their arrest. Yeah. As it was so early on in the year compared to the spree. And they didn't have the link at the start. So this was their first victim. Even though I'm talking about it now. Yeah. The same applies to their next victim. Who is Jerry Taylor, who's a 60-year-old golf player who was shot dead on a golf course in Tuscan, Arizona. This was on the ninth Da Sunna. We're here. I didn't even know Da Sunna. Why did I not even know? We've literally done this. And I said, Tusken, we've literally done this so many times. This episode, DA Arizona. I didn't even know that was in there when he said it earlier. God, I really was rambling at this point. This was on March the 19th, 2002. He had been shot in the torso. This was by a rifle from a distance. So this is where the sniper practice is coming into play, and apparently the pair of fucking losers had been stalking the golf course for some time to get a good shot at not leaving a survivor. So I think this is being like, this is a stakeout, this is the pointing from a range. They're fucking golf course, but he's just a random Yeah, he's just a random dude. He's not someone that's connected to them. Yeah. He's just little Giza who loved golf. Oh, he's retired. Yeah, he's a ki he was a father of three and an ex-army veteran. Again, there was no link to the DC snipers until post arrest because it was so random and so far apart, even to their first kill. So from here until the spree killing in Dece in September, 2002, there was three more deaths and four more injured. All later linked to the DC Sniper due to their bullets and fingerprints from the gun and the crime scenes. But they were also like spread out. Spread out in location and time. But that was all practice. Yeah. But this was just them trying to build up. Yeah. So the murdered victims were 41-year-old million Waled and Merriam, who were shot dead whilst closing Sammy's package store in Atlanta, Georgia. He was an Ethiopian Giza who had been helping out a friend close his store for extra work when he was shot. Couldn't really find much about these guys because they were only linked after. Yeah. And I think people were like, here's some more, and I think there's like more Yeah. Than this, which is. Yeah, I'm sorry if I've missed out stuff. Claudine Parker, who is a 52-year-old who was shot in the chest less than 24 hours later in Montgomery, Alabama. Alabama and a fourth Alabama, Arkansas. I love it. It's literally so bad. I do love my mom and Paul. Not the way. Why not in danger. I do love you. Have we done this before? Yeah, we did it when we were in the first as fuck, I think. Oh, did we? Yeah. Yeah, that would make sense. And a 45-year-old Hong, IM Ballinger, who was shot in the head with a rifle in baton Rouge, Louisiana on the 23rd of September. Yes. This was their quote, practice for what? Lay ahead. Obviously they're spread out in time and location, so it's hard to pin them to one person until the spree killing and taunting started. I think there's, yeah. So many victims. I haven't mentioned some of the surviving victims. I've probably missed a few people that were linked to them a lot later on. Yeah. I'm sorry. I try my best. Do you have a total, I think it was something like this. I saw 17, but I don't know if that was 17, including injured. I'm gonna have a, but I did not write 17. I think I only got 14 or something. Across the 10 month span, the pair were linked to 27 shootings in several states there were 17 deaths and then 10 injury jesus Christ. I did not cover all of them. Maybe I'll do a little side note another day. Also around this time, just before the spree begins, John Allen Mohamed finds out his ex-wife's new location. Oh, scary. So during all of this practice, they're also stalking her intensely. They're watching out every move where she goes, who she's talking to, where the kids are, literally everything. Malvo later tells police, like for evidence that, the plan definitely was to kill her eventually, after it being long enough that his foolproof plan would make there be no link to him whatsoever. But the TW got arrested before that, didn't he? So fucking, yeah. Yeah. Foolproof my fucking ass because then those kids would've been left with neither of their parents. So that ties us into the start of the spree and it also leads to their arrest, so it's rounding up. So let's talk about after they've been arrested and their convictions. So obviously they're both asleep in the car. They both get arrested and taken in and separated. Good. Which is key because obviously Malvo has not been apart from him the last two years really. Except for when he's gone back to his abusive mom. Yeah. And obviously every chance he gets and even nanny's trying to get back to him. Yeah. And either whether Mohammed's ringing him and being like, come here, or he's been sneaking out and stuff. So it's like they need some separation. Yeah. It is definitely. So they both end up in court. Yeah. Separately, obviously. It is definitely noted that Lee Malvo was still only 17 and was absolutely 100% groomed by John Allen Mohammed through his life and this whole mass murdering plot. However, obviously that's not really an excuse to be honest. Not when he's managed to kill 17 people. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I wonder what proportion of that was him. Yeah. And also if they just hadn't stayed with Robert Holmes. Yeah. And or like his mom hadn't called immigration on him. Like it's, it is gotten, it's nothing to do with good old co yeah. It's to do with two people that just, it's serendipity. It's serendipity. Yeah. It's his mom just trying to snake him out and get him to go home. Yeah. But actually if she'd not done that, his, he wouldn't be on the record. His thing would've come up. Yeah. So if actually there had been a chance of them being found separately Yeah, potentially they wouldn't know that he was part of it. Yeah. It's, and once you've got two people, his thing came together fitting a description to find perfectly because. Because both of those things happened at really the same time as well. Like that it tied to both of them separately around a really close proximity and time. So if one of those two things hadn't have happened, it might not have, because if you're looking for a profile of one person, but two people in a car and you think, oh that could have been him. But no one mentioned what the other guy's supposed to look like. Yeah. Like it is just crazy how many things that, I'm not saying the police did a bad job 'cause they were trying everything they could. Yeah. They just like, and they were taking the lead seriously, which is how it got them to finding out about this tree stump and that it matched and stuff. But it was fate and it was serendipity that kind of. Yeah. Landed them into prison without anyone really into prison. Yeah, exactly the same time. It's wild. Yeah, so obviously that's not really an excuse. So even though Lee Malvo was the person pulling the trigger for the most part of the murdering and or injuring of this duo's victims, John Mohammed was ridiculed for being all of the mayhem. Lee Malvo was convicted on the 10th of March, 2004. He received six consecutive life sentences across Virginia and Mary land without possibility of parole. So he is still in prison. Yeah. He will spend the rest of his life in prison. Yeah. I did read somewhere that he's in the process of appealing his life without parole due to the law for minors being convicted changed in 2017. Okay. But I think that even to attend. The appeal parole was declined. Yeah. So I think they're trying to be like I think it was noted because it was like potentially in the future he could, you were a kid. Yeah. But at the same time it's 17 deaths. Yeah. And 10 injuries. Injuries like that is you didn't just fuck up one time. And also you made a conscious decision to kill a lot of people. Yeah. With no remorse at any point, you got caught. You didn't even come forward and say you didn't try to back out after he made you kill the first one. Yeah. He has been like, he's given a lot of evidence since and he's been like really helpful. And he said, I know I was groomed now and these were the things he was telling me. And I can talk about my past. He's quite smart. Yeah. I'm not surprised considering he was like, I'm not saying to be groomed, you're not smart. That's not what I'm saying at all. But he was being groomed the whole time. But it's because of what he wanted life to be like. Yeah. Because he had someone looking after him, quote that was feeding him. A lot of like false information about what Islam can, yeah. What being a Muslim can do for your life and how they can help a bigger cause. But he spent his whole life studying. He was gonna be a pilot. Yeah. Like he's an intelligent man. So I think now that he's had some time away from him and he's broken that bond. Yeah. Some separation. He has been like really helpful. But obviously he still needs to be in prison for his entire life because Yeah. He still, it's not acceptable. He still did a lot of terrible things to a lot of people. Exactly. And yeah, I think there's no updates as of yet. I think that got, I think his, yeah, I think it's basically that his appeal got declined, but the law of minors has changed, so Yeah. He might be able to, I dunno. Yeah. I don't know. But we'll find out. That was in 2017. I haven't really heard anything since. John Adam Hamid was also convicted, but on the 10th of November, 2009, he was executed via lethal injection. Oh shit. Yeah. He refused to give any last words and never ever showed any remorse for anything. Although no one is really a hundred percent certain on the why because obviously Malvo is the only reason why we know about John Mohammed's elaborate plans. Yeah. Mohammed never spoke out about, spoke about this. He never showed remorse. He never explained to anyone why he didn't give any last words. He just was like, bye. Malvo is this is just how much I got to tap into his brain. Yeah. His ex-wife is really believes that all the crimes were a coverup for a plan to kill her. Yeah. She's he was just gonna shoot a load of people and I was gonna be one of them. Yeah. And then he would've, it wouldn't have been linked back to him. The kids would've gone to him, maybe. Yeah. Malvo, however, claims that he had indoctrinated him into sharing his rage over white American society. He also claimed that Mohammed wanted to extort millions of dollars from the government so he could train orphan boys to be terrorists, specifically Jesus. But like I said, investigators, prosecutors would never reveal a motivation other than the quote, pure sensation of sudden death of innocent people. That's all they said they could come to the conclusion of. So I had a look and Lee Boyd Marvo, basically he's eligible for parole in Virginia and Maryland. But he's gonna be incarcerated for a while because what's happened is because of the new law that you were talking about it, he has appealed his juvenile life sentences and he has actually been successful. So he needs to be re-sentenced. I see. Yeah, I see. Which he just will be probably surely. Yeah, please. Okay. That's fascinating that's something, it's so crazy that it's just if a law changes, then someone like that is potentially able to, after six life sentences, is potentially eligible for parole, but it's across both of those places, so it's rogue as well that they can't even just is he like 40 now? Yeah. So that was in 2002. He was 17, like four 40. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. That's fucking crazy. So he spent more of his life in prison now. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's such good point. Eek. I wouldn't wanna come out, to be honest. Is the world, where's the world? Yeah. That's it. I say that's it. That's it. That's it. Just two hours stuff. Just a nice little tight two hours. Yeah. And sorry if I missed stuff and I'm sorry. I will try and do a bit, find out everyone's names and maybe post that on the Instagram just so that I've not missed anyone out. 'cause I don't like doing that, but I just like, yeah, it's quite an intense, and it sounds like it's really hard to figure out the chronology of it. Yeah. It was so hard, like at most, at the start, even just writing that first bit of the deaths in order. Yeah. I read so many articles that were D, it was all different. I was watching YouTube videos and then even the doc is like, this guy was shot outside of petrol station. And then I was like, I'm so confused. And they were like the same guy. And then that was actually the week after and then they went back and I was like, why would you do that? Yeah, that is do in order. So that is the DC snipers in full. This is part two complete. The usual, follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Kill the Mood Part, and email us at Gilda Mood podcast@gmail.com. Fabulous. And thank you so much. Always give us recommendations if you want us to do anything and message us if you have any info or updates or we've said something wrong because Yeah. 'cause we probably have I've probably pronounced something wrong or told you the wrong date or just basically lied to you for two and a half hours. But yeah, thanks for listening. Follow us. Share. Tell your friends. We love you. Bye bye.