Mary Rogers

This week we’re stepping back to the hazy, gas-lit streets of 1840s New York…

She was young, charming, and known across the city as “the Beautiful Cigar Girl.” Men lined up at the shop just to catch a glimpse of her smile. But in the summer of 1841, Mary Rogers vanished and days later, her body was found floating in the Hudson River.

What followed was a full-blown media frenzy, a chaotic investigation, wild theories, questionable witnesses, and a case so sensational it even inspired a detective story by Edgar Allan Poe.

This week, we take you through the mystery, the suspects, the rumours, and yes, approximately 47 completely unhinged tangents, give or take. We’re talking 1800s policing, Victorian gossip, dramatic men with strong opinions, and how this case helped shape the way we consume true crime today.

So light a (metaphorical) cigar, pour something strong, and settle in for two girls who may not solve a 19th-century cold case, but will absolutely have thoughts about it.

Transcript

0:17

Okay. We've cut our intro before anyone tries to skip it. And also if you are trying to skip it, you're gonna be real fucked up now. Yeah. Good luck.'cause not 30 seconds ahead. Well it will be after I'm actually fucking saying it. So welcome to Kill the Moon podcast. We're here to talk to you about everything. Spooky Doy. We are not professionals and we mean no offense in anything we say. This is just us trying to make sense of the senseless. Without further ado, this week's case is Mary Rogers, but before we get into that, Amy's gotta crash. Amy's got actually really cool. It's actually mad, isn't it? I'm so sorry. No, stop. It's so funny I can't tell you anything about it because it would give away what we do for work. It would give away where we work. That's so cool. But all I can tell you is like. Oh, they're meant to be. They're just meant to be. This is so funny. I don't even know what to even say. Yeah, I refuse to let this stay in here. Yeah, that's so fair. You are editing it. So anyway, in the blueprint, that's it. I just wanted to let you all know my future. Spouse. Yes. I love you, spouse. I'll play this to you. When we're wed? One day. One day. Too funny, there's just been nothing else going on with us at all. No, it has not. It's been so boring. Yeah. I got a new hair and a new car and then nothing happened for ages. So now that there's, you literally got the new car like last week and you're like, nothing happened for so long. I know, but there's just been no excitement. No, no. But yeah, something. Yeah. Yeah. It's just something, it's just like wiped down. So I just live vicariously through my friends. Yeah. And nothing happens to me. And she's been letting me fucking down. Let me tell you. I know. And then literally all that's happened is some, a few glances for exchange, and we're like, oh my gosh, wedding. Can you hear it? What do you think that they meant when they said this, this, this, this, this, and this, and this anyway, they have looked at her for you too many times. And I'm convinced in my soul, I feel it in my bones. Now you are my biggest fan. Yeah. I'm your biggest fan. That true? You're my biggest fan. And you're my, so I'm convinced that everyone that meets you loves you. Yeah. And then like I don't, I was just wondering if I was just like rage baiting myself. No. I was just like, yeah, I don't know. But now other people we know are getting on the gravy train and everyone's starting to be like, oh. Maybe. Oh, maybe. Oh. So funny. This is just how we get through. Yeah. To be honest, it's been a long couple of weeks to work. There's kind of nothing else interesting happening, so this is just what we're doing right now. So this is a case in the 18 hundreds. Oh, yeah. You know what that means? L everyone's dead. Yeah. Which means we can be as brutal as, as we, I'm joking. No, I know. To be fair, this is gonna be like drunk mystery. We haven't, we need to do one of them now. Yeah, we do. We Easter around the corner. Oh. Just another religious holiday. Drunk mystery. I've met my match Drunk mystery episode. And it all have Amy's loss. Amy's new partner. There's literally nowhere near becoming Amy's new partner. That is so funny. Like what? We've got Tom. And then we just, each time it's my turn, it's just a different person that I'm obsessing over. We just rotate Tom and who is it this week? Yeah. Too funny. I'm learning about them at the same time as you guys. Oh my God. Didn't know you went to private school. I didn't know you vote before. Fuck. Mary Rogers is the, the name of the game. I have a chewing gum in, I need to dispose of it. Yeah. I just had to throw my my note and stuff. It made the biggest noise in the background. I was gonna be like, I hope that's not important. And then I realized it's a snow down where it's snow, so it's not important. I can't decipher that ever again. Yeah, right. So we are going back to July the 28th, 1841. James Bullard and Henry Mullen were out on their boat on the Hudson River, near a manmade cave named Sybil's Cave in Hoboken, New Jersey. Ho Balkan. Oh, Balkan. The Hudson River is what connects New York and New Jersey. Ah, good to know. Did you know that? No. No, I didn't. Course not. I know what the Hudson River is. Yeah, same. But I wonder if I just know that, because I think I just heard it said the Hudson Hornet from cars. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I just was like, oh my God, the Hudson River. I know what that is. And then. I don't know, maybe there's just something. I just realize I look like a fucking bond villain. You actually do. I'm wearing a turtleneck, like a black turtleneck cropped jumper. Yeah. And it's like I just caught myself in the mirror and it's like so high up my neck that I look terrified. You should have like a gold tooth or something. Yeah. Just to finalize it. I'm wearing Tom's sleeves, literally wearing Tom's sleeves. I was like, oh, I'm chilly. Let's get That's cold. Can I have this? Thanks Tom. So that's what the Hudson River is. Okay, great. Yeah. New York, New Jersey. I'm sure that's gonna be important later. Yeah, some rivers times. They were out for a relaxing boat trip that afternoon when they floated over towards, why did I say floated Flitted. They floated like they flitted, they floated on SL AFL towards the cave and then they found a body. Ah, yeah, I just did the bit to stop us talking about it. And then you, I just looked at you and I was like, she's gonna carry on. Yeah. Sorry. You really, I've noticed you've really turned into like a dad on their phone because you literally just can't concentrate on anything else. Like usually you'd be like, we'd just be like on our phones, like messaging people whilst also still holding a conversation, but at the minute you'll just be gone and I'll be like, yeah, and then this, and you'll be like, hold on. And then you just start reading your text out loud and you'll like stop in like mid walk. And I'm like, mom. I dunno what's happening to me. I'm almost 30, man. I know. Yeah. Like that's all I've got. I've hurt my back this week. Just by sleeping. Yeah. And like it's so terrible. And like today I kept trying to whip my head around and I'd be like, ow, I hurt myself. I feel like you are literally gonna start like holding your phone with one hand and using your other finger to, she just pulled her glasses down, honestly. And then you won't be able to turn around and look at anyone. Yeah. That's your little quick neck. It is. I'm really, I'm fucking falling apart. She's falling apart. Whereas I'm young. Free and in my element. Yeah. Fucking bitch. Right. Let's get into it. The body belonged to a 20-year-old woman named Mary Cecilia Rogers. The two men reported the body and later it was identified as Mary by her former fiance, Alfred Crom. That's a villain name. Yeah. Isn't it? And also it's a villain name. Former as in like, was already former, not like former.'cause she died. Oh, okay. Right. So ex Yes. Fiance. Mm-hmm. Mary's clothes had been torn and there was clear signs of a struggle. There were also clear signs of strangulation. So let's find out about her. She was born in 1820 in Lyme, Connecticut. Her father died when she was young in a steamboat accident. So her mother moved her and her older brother to New York. How, how'd she die in a, I mean, I'm not saying like no one ever, but I would like to know how, yeah. Is this Steamboat one of the things that, like this huge propeller that like did, I guess So did a Steamboat go into another Steamboat? I think I read somewhere that he was a captain. A steamboat man. Yeah. Steam boater. So I assume like that Steamboat sank or something, or blew up or something like that. I don't know. Right. So we Yes. Okay. Right. Okay. Now I understand. Yeah. I guess he was just like away. Steamboat of the Steamboat. Yeah. There was some sort of accident. Maybe it ran outta steam. Well, the steam pressure was too high. It was too much steam too. Too little steam. No steam. No steam at all. I couldn't tell you. I think it, let's find out. No, we don't ne need to. No, it's just gonna be something horrible. It's not gonna be fun, is it? Yeah, I know. Let's just, how did Mary Rogers' dad die in steam moats? I. It says, oh, he died in a steamboat explosion. I knew I'd read that somewhere. Oh right, okay. He died in a New Orleans Steamboat explosion. And then she moved to New York City. Right. And moved to New York. Yeah. His name is James Rogers. Oh yeah. When she was 17, did I put that, I dunno. Finding out loads of things. So yeah, they all moved to New York when Mary was growing up. She would work in her mother's inn for some earnings. And her older brother was in the Merchant Navy, so he would be away from home a lot, just like my brother, like Alex. Mm-hmm. When he would return home, he would drink himself silly and get into trouble. Hmm. The similarities I feel like because as well, like you are supposed to, you're supposed to, like nine times out of 10 when you go away in the merchant Navy, you're not allowed to drink. Okay. And'cause you're ho away from home for quite a lot with like, obviously back then as well. It's not like you haven't got, you can't download things on net, you're not FaceTiming. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's like really long. So then when you get, I mean they probably could drink back then, but I think it was just like you have to be awake early, lots of hours, late night shift stuff and then when he got home he'd be like, wait, I'm home now. Like health and safety's boring in a Yeah. Let's go back to the doubt as much of that back then though. Yeah, a hundred percent. But yes, he would drink himself silly and get into lots of trouble so one day she was offered a job from a man named John Anderson and he owned a tobacco shop in New York City called Anderson's Tobacco Emporium. Her mother disapproved due to it being uncommon for women to work in shops like this at the time, and Anderson was clearly taken aback by Mary's beauty and personality. Oh. But she took the job anyway suspicious. Mm-hmm. Leading up to the time of her death, she worked at the tobacco store and she had quite the few admirers. I also put here as a side note, when her brother would get into trouble on his drinking binges. A lot of the time it was overprotecting her. Which I think is because she was utterly beautiful. Did you show the picture? Yes. I want to see her. That's a good photo. It's the only photo of her, I think. A good photo, I think. Yeah. It's the only portrait photo of her. Oh my gosh. Because Fair enough. It's so old as well. Yeah. She is quite fit. Mm-hmm. She is absolutely stunning. And like, I love this little, like, look like with like the cape on the one shoulder and the Yeah. Yeah. That's an absolute fit. You can tell she's got flawless skin as well from that. Yeah. If you search Mary Rogers, it's like one of the only photos. Photos of her.'cause it's such an old case. But, you can tell she's got glowing skin just from like this really old pu toned piggy couldn't be me. Perfect skin. That's not me. Yeah. So I think I, yeah, this, he would always fight with people because I think Okay. They'd be like, she was getting hit on all the time. Yeah. Because I didn't like it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it like grossed him out, but also he was a drunk, so like it was Yeah. Yeah. He's just looking for a fight. Yeah. It was always heightened. But yeah, everyone seemed to be really obsessed with her. Anderson was also paying her a very decent wage for a store worker and for a woman, but she was raking in the customers like crazy for him. Yeah, I bet. Maybe he was smart to understand, like the marketing of it all, you know? Yeah. Beautiful girls selling your cigars. Yeah. And your tobacco, like it makes it sexy, doesn't it? Yeah. And I think he also had like, that's what mad men say sex sells. Yeah. And I think what he had was like quite, he was quite clever with marketing and stuff, like advertising himself there was a few, there's a few situations where people are questioning whether he was doing things for publicity and stuff. So I think he probably, yeah. Okay. He thought she had good Riz and then was like, yeah, he understood the premise of marketing before marketing was really a thing. Yeah. And maybe people were going to the end because she was so beautiful. Yeah. And she had a really good personality as well. So maybe he was like, come work for me. Because people will come buy tobacco on their lunch break more often if they get to chat to someone that like is a hottie, you know? These admirers were all locals at the cigar shop. And upon reports of her death, she quickly became infamous. And the talk of the town after the news also shared that this girl, that this was a murder case, the fame and gossip grew and grew. And Mary adopted the nickname, the Beautiful Cigar Girl. Mm-hmm. If so, if anyone didn't know her, it would just be like, oh my God. Do you know her? Yeah. The tobacco shop, the beautiful Cigar girl. Okay. So she was called that before. Yeah, sorry. Th this is when it all starts coming out on the news that she was killed. Oh, because she's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So even if anyone didn't know her, she'd just be known as that because, yeah. So, but that's what people used to call her when she was alive, so, yeah. Yeah. Associating that with her, like after she's stared Yeah. They say on the news, they say, oh my god, that's a beautiful cigar girl. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, it's quite a funky little nickname I would say. Like, I fuck with it. Yeah. Maybe we could be like the, I feel like bit ciggy girls. Yeah. Yeah. Fit Ciggy Girls, the Buff Paintings girls. It sounds like such an UpToDate like road roadmap version, like the Fit Ciggy Girls Fine. Again, could never be me, but her admirers included several authors, editors and reporters that visited her frequently at the store. So this aided in her fame because they knew how to make her topic, the topic of the town, because obviously they're all in publication. Fucking how you could tell, like there wasn't much. It's going on. Yeah. Right. Like they're just like, oh, oh my God. Yeah. Right. Actually, that is us now. It is really funny that this is what I've chosen to do because we might just be way over exaggerating something out. Nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is, this is true. You know? Yeah. I think, I think it was just like loads of men working and not very many women working except this absolute stunning piece of work that was working. Yeah. There's no internet is there? Yeah. You not being like, I wanna see something beautiful, someone beautiful. Mm-hmm. And like you can't just go online and search it, or like, yeah. I also read going Tinder. I can't remember if I put this in here or not, but I also read something about one person just saying that they hung out outside all day just to like, that's fucking creepy as shit. Yeah, because, because I think it was like some people were like, wow, I can really appreciate her beauty and her. Good. Like she's charismatic. And then other times I think it's like, okay, chill out mate. Yeah. But like, what's wrong with you? What's in the sauce? Like, are you really that weird? Yeah. That you are like, I'm just gonna hang out here all day. Why on the off chance that you might get like a good chat with her, but she must have been like a fucking flawless, you know? Yeah. So one of these admirers in specific is a man named Edgar Allen Poe. No way. Yes. Oh boy, ed, a little dark boy EAP who for anyone that doesn't know, is an author in the 18 hundreds. He is famed for poetry, but also for short stories of mystery and horror. He wrote the poem, the Raven, which is a popular poem about grief and darkness. During his. Writing career. And he actually ended up writing a story called The Mystery of Marie Roge, which was based on Mary Rogers' death. Oh. And I also read that this was the first murder mystery story written that is based on details of a real crime. Ah, yeah. Wow. I dunno how true that is.'cause it feels like yeah, I don't know. I guess, I guess the, the pull for true crime, I mean also what you hearing about it. Yeah, exactly. You know, like, I know obviously they have newspapers and stuff, but like it, I dunno if True Crime was as sensationalized. Yeah. And also like cozy crime and like Agatha Christie and all of that stuff. Like some of it's a bit too, like, oh, everyone was the killer spoilers if you haven't seen it, you like, you know, things like that. So she's got a lot of stories. Yeah. That could be any, could be any. You'll to watch them, watch them, read them all to find out. Yeah, I think like. Those things like cozy crime where where like there might be some truth to it or you might have got your inspiration from somewhere, but this is like the first actual thing that was based specifically on Yeah. Her and how she died. So that might not be true. I apologize if it's not, but it might just be like the first recorded because it was in the 18 hundreds. Yes. I'm not sure. But very interesting. And also fucking prove it. Yeah. Like if it's not true, prove it. You know what? Find me an earlier one. Sorry. No one's even me. Like just fucking don't come at me. Then I'll literally end you. so another reason that her fame took off so much more than the usual women's body being found in the 18 hundreds was that this wasn't the first time Mary's name was in the press. Oh. There had been a small scandal a few years prior where Mary had disappeared from her home along with a note that her mother depicted as a suicide note. The newspaper posted this as front page gossip about local pretty tobacco sales girl being missing and like suspected suicide. And anyone that was like kind of in that area was like, oh my God, no. Where's she gone? Like, what's the story? What's the drama? Like? Where is she? I cannot tell you how similar our stories are. Yeah. As soon as you said what you were gonna do, I was like, yeah, what the fuck that, that's actually wild. But we literally had no conversation about it. But I have something very similar that happens in my, yeah, it's very interesting. And I do know a little bit about yours, whereas this one's like. Tom doesn't know what it is. Really? Never heard of it. I think I know what it is because the American Horror Story Yes. Was like based, based off it of it. And then I think that made me listen to a podcast about it. Mm-hmm. But it was a long time ago. A little bit of a, if you know what, if you know, you know, a little hinge, wink, wink. Nudge, nudge. Winky. Winky. Oh my God. What, what? Jesus. I just came outta my mouth. Right. Let's get back to her. I'm crying now. Anyway, she actually reappeared a few days later. Completely fine. And said that she didn't write the note. Oh freak. Yeah. The main theory from this was that John Anderson had staged this for more customers and publicity at his store, but this was actually never confirmed. Did it work? Yeah. So like obviously, well, even though she wasn't there, people were, when she returned, I think everyone was like, oh, right, where you've been log out, you're like in the ring. What the fuck am I? So there is something so wrong with this podcast. Like it's actually ridiculous because there is no actual single train of thought. Like there's one brain cell and we borrow it, toim it smooshes back and forth. I borrow it so that I can fucking read and I just sat here and went blame on any London me, because that's what's running through my head right now. Ah, it's okay. It's fine. Yeah, I'm so sorry. I don't even know what's wrong with me'cause I only worked a five hour shift today, so I should be like on top four. Yeah. I didn't fall on fatty eight hours. You did? No work. Don't lie. And you left early? Yes, I did leave early. I left at half four when I was supposed to leave. Oh, dickhead. Oh, sorry. It's like a half eight. Oh, I thought you were just like skyping off because your neck I'm finished. Yeah. No, because I can't move my fucking neck. A completely valid reason. So yeah, that was never confirmed. Mary had just said that when she returned that she was just visiting a friend in Brooklyn and got tied up, which is very vague. But then also you have to remind yourself this is the 18 hundreds, so you can't really be hi girl, I'm just gonna stay here for a few more days. You know, like she, by the time you sent a letter, it's only been three, you know? Yeah. I dunno. Okay. Yeah. So it's not easy to locate, basically. Yeah. Like she was just like, oh, I got tied up. But, but I don't know. I bet she was doing some mad shit. Yeah. Well there is loads of theories about what this gal's been up to. But yeah, I think basically either he's. Wrote this note, or it's all got really spun out of proportion. And then there's been like, it's been posted all over the media and then when she's come home, everyone's been like, oh my God, the beautiful cigar girl. She lives, let's go in and get some, yeah. Because like also why is that in the media? Yeah, exactly. But I think that's, that's a very good point because she's so, but what, what I'm saying is like who went to them Yeah. So quickly and said like she's, I guess maybe it could have been her family if they thought she was missing. Well, I think John Anderson was quite involved and the second she hasn't, hadn't come to work or whatever, he was like, this could be good for me. Yeah. But whether the note appeared after he caught wind of that, I'm not really sure. It says that it's never been confirmed, but it doesn't say that it's been like. Suspectful. Yeah. I realize I've said sus too many times that I'm changing up. Just suspectful not suspicious. Nope, not suspicious. Suspectful Suspectful. Full of suspects. This is full of suspects. Okay. So Mary, as I mentioned earlier, had been engaged to a lawyer named Alfred Rolin. However, she didn't fancy him. Did you mention that earlier? He had, she said she'd been engaged. Yeah, he identified her body. Oh, I, okay. I said. Ex as in Oh, you did? No, I said ex ex-fiance. You said ex I said ex fiance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shit. Hell shit. Yes. So this is bringing him back into circulation. Alfred Crumlin, she was actually engaged to him because he was a lawyer and her mom thought it was a good idea. Mm-hmm. But she didn't fancy him that much, so she called things off and he was really smitten with her. And apparently he moved to her road where her mom's house was just to be close to her in case she needed him. I hate that. Yeah. I hate that I, if anybody is listening, don't do that. Yeah. Just don't do it. Sure. I mean, also like, how much Riz, why do I keep saying Riz? I don't, who the fuck are you? I'm almost 30. Stop saying Riz. It's the only way I, how to explain it. Like, who's got this much cl Like, I've got back problems and I can't talk when I'm looking at my phone now, I don't, I can't hang out with people that say things like R. Okay. Boomer. Just'cause I, I, yeah. Anyway I don't know what, what word I'm looking for, but whatever she's got going on, it's making people, people Charisma. Yeah. Charisma, uniqueness, nerve and talent. Talent and beauty. She's making people move onto her road just to be close to her, even though she's, which is creepy, like, I'm not saying it's a goodbye. Yeah. It's been fucking horrible to be her, to be honest. Yeah. Like, she's just, like I said, I didn't fancy you just fuck off. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, whoever's, people are willing to do that for her. Okay. You do you what time? And you could just fucking move down the road. I know. And no one was like, that's a restraining order. Yeah. It'd just be like out on the cobbles, like good mornings, Mary Rogers. I've moved in now. Fuck off. Also take a hint. Yeah. Not even a hint.'cause she said it to your face, I don't wanna be with you. Yeah. She said, I don't fancy you. I don't like you. I don't wanna marry you. Go away. Yeah. And also she'd actually fallen for a cork cutter named Daniel Pain. Sick jaw, isn't it? Yeah. Like kind of repetitive but also funky. Just, just sick. Also, you know when like people are like with a bottle of red wine, they're like, smells cool. It's Daniel. Smells like Daniel. I could smell a 1964 bottle of, oh my God, shut up. Milo. A Cabernet Souvignon. Yeah. Like he must have just been like, that's a 60 year aged rum right now. I bet he didn't know fucking shit about anything. He just cut the corks. Yeah, definitely. Just a repetitive just chomp talk. Yeah. She had actually fallen for Daniel Payne instead and they got engaged instead. Which is why like, I don't think her mom was too keen on it as she had had her sights on Mary marrying the lawyer. But the heart wants what? The heart wants. Yes. So she was actually engaged to someone else and he still was like she was the one to identify her body. Yes. And she's got a fiance. Yes, I do talk about that. Okay, great. I think well then I'll just shut the fuck up. Yeah, I'm gonna get that. I'm joking. That is what the point in this is. No, no. I'll be quiet. Don't fucking question me. Sit there and shut after game. I think we've taken out silly beans today. Wait, what the fuck is going on? Loves well high on romance. Yeah. There's too much of it that I can't cut it out now. It has to stay in. Yeah, literally we've talked about like you'd be getting rid of the whole episode. Okay. Well, yeah, so after getting engaged in 1841, they actually had had a few issues slash arguments about her working in the tobacco shop and that her mother didn't approve of Daniel. Also that everyone was obsessed with her and Daniel couldn't handle what he signed up for clearly. Mm. So I think they had a little bit of beef. He was actually drinking quite a lot and whilst he was getting more drunk and angry, Mary was getting grief from her mom about the family having no money. So Mary was actually kind of back in touch with Rolin about what would happen if she just chose him. But I think this is only for her family and their wealth. Yeah. Not because she actually loves him. Yeah. I think she loves Daniel, but it's not really going very well. And he's Yeah. And he's drinking and he's poor. Yeah. And she's just like, bad combo. Yeah. Like, I love you, but you are angry and poor. Yeah. Like, come on, you've gotta have something going for you. Yeah. And this guy at least be like, poor and sweet. Yeah. And this, or like. Rich and a dick. Yeah. And because this other guy, like, she doesn't fancy him, but he's moved down the road to check in on her, which Yes. Is creepy. But she might just be like in despair. Like, look, he's a lawyer and he's got loads of money and like, he loves me. Yeah. Well the idea of safety, especially if your relationship's not going very well. Yes. Like you can see like, even if she doesn't care about him, he's like not an unknown factor. Is he? He like she, she knows what she's getting with him. Yeah. And I don't know if like,'cause the brother was just kind of like plummeting a little bit. She, maybe Mary's mum was like putting quite a lot of pressure on her to, well also Daniel's drinking too. Yeah. So like her, she's seeing what's happening to her brother and then she's watching her partner go down the same route. And it's just like, yeah. And the pressure you're getting from your mom to be like, we're poor. Yeah. You could change that also. Bitch, yours your fault. I know. Don't have them. Yeah. Don't, don't have them. I don't know. But women didn't really have rights to not do that. Yeah. So I don't think she had a choice. I don't, I know how much contraception that was either. Yeah. No, no. Pig skin. Oh, terrible. I'm just asking. I don't know. Yeah, IDII do feel like it's not like the mom, like, you moved to New York, you took your kids there. I thought you were talking to me. Then I was like, I didn't know. Such thing. You moved to away to New York and left me behind. Yes. Right. I don't know. And like, can women provide for themselves that, well, at that time when your husband died at a Steamboat accident, like she probably did the best she could. Yeah. And it must, I dunno, it kind of doesn't, but also it's not your daughter's fault. No. It's not your daughter's fault. Also, I would kind of be annoyed if, like the mom was saying, don't go with Daniel, the court cutter because you love him. Go for the rich lawyer. But maybe she's seeing how controversial Daniel is being when he's drunk. And yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe then she was like, and you've literally got with someone that's an absolute waste of space. I don't know. I don't know. But I think she had quite a lot of pressure. So she was back in touch with Romman. She couldn't really make up her mind. So she was sort of stringing Alfred Kremlin and Daniel Payne alone, meaning that they alone both. Yes. Yes. Till one of them were alone. But this does mean that both of them had motive. Yes. Oh, even though they all have motive. Yeah, so on July the 25th, 1841, Mary Rogers and Daniel Payne had had an argument, which led to Mary telling Daniel that she was gonna get away for a few days and go and visit her aunt in Brooklyn. She said that she would ride by horse and carriage and be back by suppertime. I'll be there in the mother. Pardon me madam. I would like to raise my horse and carriage I was living then. I'd be so bad. I know. Although I did, I was thinking how that, I was watching Bridgeton. Bridgeton. I knew you were gonna say that. And like it's getting steamy, but so many people kiss and I thought you weren't allowed to kiss out. Yeah. You're not like everyone's fucking necking it on everywhere. It is ridiculous, isn't it? Do you not think? Are you, you are on the Colin season. Yeah. Colin and I, Colin, Colin, Colin, come here. Look, Colin, that's from space to best show in the world. Yeah, they, I also, as soon as she got in, I knew that there was that scene. Spoilers, if you haven't watched season three, I fucking grab, it's been out for a year. Yeah. And I am just watching it. But I knew that there was like a carriage scene between them, so I knew it was coming when she got into the carriage and then he got into the carriage. But the whole time I was like, the fucking windows are wide open. Yeah. Good. See? Right. And draw those little curtains you set. Yeah. She is not, she is not quiet. No. And like, which is fine because you, you be as loud as you want Diva, but the, the man that's driving, riding, driving the carriage. So I remember that story I was telling about when I was driving piggy and I, I was like in the front of the car and they were like necking on in the back of the car and like doing bit you, I'm not. And I was literally like turning up the radio going Yeah. And you're just there like I'm not, I don't know, like I'm right here. Yeah. Like I always think this about like scenes in like taxis and stuff in the back of a taxi and I'm just like, what? Mm-hmm. Like what? The disrespect of the driver. Oh, poor bloody. Do you remember? Yeah. Once he's basically taking you to the place where you're clearly gonna bang, you should read, read Fourth Wing. Yeah. Maybe I'll, because it is a real spice and I'm having great time, but like It's ridiculous. Yeah. Quite fun. Well, at times And then it's 10. And it's actually a really good story too, but I'm reading a book. There was some big spice called a Touch of Jen at the Minute and it is. Oh, it's everyone and it needs therapy. Yeah. It is really, really, it might, I just don't, I want, like, when I'm reading it, my like, nails are digging into my hands. I don't wanna, like, I, me and Tom are having this whole discussion about the way that we enjoy films and why we enjoy films and Tom enjoys them because of like the emotion of it all. Yeah. And the cinematography and like, I enjoy them because I don't want to, I don't want to, I want an escape in terms of, I don't want my, the way that I feel in life to be reflected on screen. Yeah. Yeah. I want, I want a story with a beginning, a middle and end. I want it to be easy and I want to like, which is I think why you like horror so much because it's so unrealistic. Yeah. No, no, it is. But like, basically I was like, I just, it's insane because the way I consume is like, escapism is escapism. It's not about, I don't wanna feel it. I want to feel something else. Yeah. Which is why I struggled to like, things like peep show. I can really appreciate peep show because it's so well made and a lot of those situations are very unrealistic. Yeah. But sometimes I'm watching it and I'm like, this is a real life situation where someone is doing something cringe and something uncomfortable is happening in the workplace or in a relationship or something. Which is why some of it's so hard to watch because I'm like, that's so real. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I love a book that's like twisty and turny and like kind of gets like, yeah. I like a twist in a term. I, I was reading one, but I don't think I could read something that sets me on edge like that I, Kelly lent me boy parts by Eliza Clark or something. And that is about this girl who's just like. She takes pictures of like naked boys or something. I don't know. This is the one that you're telling me about where she's a terrible person. Yeah. And she's a really terrible person, but also she's like going on these nights out and then she's like doing loads of drugs and like blacking out and like, and like she's taking on that experience with her and like the anxiety, like, I was like, I can't, I, I like to read to fall asleep. Yeah. And because I'm reading the Hunger Games at the minute, I'll like read it until I fall asleep and then I wake up and I'm not like, ah, but I was reading it and I was like, God, it's making me like, feel. Yeah, yeah. Anxious. And I, and I should be reading a book in bed to be like, ah, goodnight World. But instead I was like, sat up like, oh my God, what's happening? What's she gonna do? Oh my God, why is she saying that? Oh my God, she's such a mess. She needs to just get out of there. Get out of there. And like, in the end I was like, I have to stop reading this at nighttime because it's just like, does in, that's how I feel about those films. The guy that makes the films like Uncut Gems and Marty Super, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The way that, oh my God, that's films make me feel Yeah. Uncut Gems was the most, the worst, like the anxiety Yeah. Was through the roof the entire time watching that film. And it was horrible because I've not watched that one. Yeah. And I've only watched Marty Supreme and even that, I was literally, like, me and my dad got out the cinema and I was like, I've got fucking whiplash. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I literally cannot breathe. Yeah. And like there's, there's such un expectancy to it and it is unrealistic, but also it's like that anxiety that it makes you feel is like how you feel when you're in a busy, that's why that, did you watch that film of a service? With. Steven Graham and it's one shot boiling point. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah. But that is like, it's so real that is like actual restaurant service. Like anyone who's ever worked in hospitality knows that the way that that film is shot from beginning to end, that's what it feels like the whole time. Yeah. You are literally stressed 24 7. That's every busy service ever has always felt like, and then it just has a fucking heart attack. Oh, no, I know. It is like spoilers. Spoilers. Yeah. That that is like one of the worst films to ever watch for me, because like I watch a scary film, it scare me. And as the peanut allergy thing's happening And you are anticipating it. Yeah.'cause they're constantly talking about the peanut allergy. Yeah. And then, oh my God. And then you're like, oh my God, no, they're gonna, they're gonna give the person peanuts. Yeah. And you're like, oh my god. Terrible. And it's so clever that the camera's following because it's showing that you can't be everywhere on the floor in a service. You can't watch everything that's going on at all times. And you need everyone to be competent and complacent in that moment. Otherwise things don't go to it. Would like go to plan. But I can't watch films like that because I'm like, that is way too realistic. Yeah. I is. Why I cannot watch watch war films. I can't watch war films. I can't watch war documentaries. I can't watch things like that because I'm just like, that really happened and I just can't have anything to do with that. Because yeah, there are certain things I have like. At least three or four things that if that, if there's one or two of those things in a film mm-hmm. I will not participate in it whatsoever. Yes. Yeah. I think that's fair. And yeah, things like, some things that are like post-apocalyptic, like I can really appreciate the last of us and stuff like that. Yeah. But it's because I can convince myself that that's not really gonna happen. But if I think about it too much, I'm like, oh my God, this makes me feel so anxious. Oh God. I love like an end of the world film. Yeah. I love a disaster film. I a, a post-apocalyptic film is kind of okay. But like Yeah. Something pre, like anything that is actually based on historical events. Oh yeah. Like that fucking gets me somehow and I just can't, oh no, we talked about that too long. Yeah. We've got way off topic. This is gonna be so long. That's was, that's, that's how we got there. Fucking how we started on Bridgeton and jump on a post tic film. We, there was something in our, yeah, I dunno what's going on today. Evening there was a big storm, which led Daniel and Mary's mother to believe that the reason Mary had not returned home was because it was the safest. It was a stop. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Thing to do. She'd been delayed. Yeah. It was to just kind of wait it out and then return the next morning. However, this did not happen and they started to worry. They got in contact with the police and Daniel and the locals began looking for Mary. They searched for two days before her body was discovered in the Hudson River. To start. The police had originally asked for Daniel to identify the body, but he declined. So that's why Alfred Kremlin had done this. Right. That makes sense. The police actually thought that it was really suss, excuse me, fucking hungry. Yeah. My tummy's grumbling. The police originally thought that that was suss. I wouldn't necessarily think that's suss. No. And and to be fair, he had an alibi and they just weren't sure on her time of death. So they were like kind of interrogating him on why he said no. But he just said he couldn't see her like that. That is sofa. Yeah. Also, she's been in the water for a couple of days. She's gonna look fucked. Exactly. And then I also started wondering, which I made a note of, is if they asked the mom the same question, and maybe that was also what she said. Yeah. But it might just be a man's job to do that stuff, so, oh, yeah. At that time, potentially at the time. Yeah. So they might have been like, oh, her fiance will, oh, he won't. Her ex fiancee will ex, even though her mom is like there, but she, I'd just like to let you know. I would never, no. If somebody said to me, you need to, obviously, I dunno why I'd say this because you have family, but like if somebody said to me, you need to go and identify Amy, I'd be like, no fucking way. I'm not going anywhere near that. Yeah. And, and then if people were to then be like, why? Yeah. That's just, did you kill her? That is not something I wanna say. Yeah. It's just like you are, I think you are within your right. To be like, that is heartbreaking and I don't want to look at that. It's just not the way that you want her, someone. Yeah. Especially because this guy, they had, yeah, they had an argument, but he was at her like he was seen about the town. Yeah. And she was found on the fucking Hudson River. Yeah. And yes, it had been, they weren't a hundred percent sure on time of death, so they were kind of ironing out his alibi, but they really gave him hell, I think even though people had seen him about the town looking for her. And I know that sometimes if, if, if people have done it and they can still go out there and look for someone and pretend, you know, I just don't think not identifying her is a good enough reason to suspect him. Yeah. And I just don't think it was him. I don't know. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, so I don't know. What? Oh, I think I was just going off on a tangent. You know, I said to you that I'd made my notes really long. For some reason I put I dunno why they would say it's a man's job.'cause most men I know don't even know whether it's a light wash item or a dark wash item. Fucking hell. I don't think she was happy when she was wearing this. God, I really wasn't. Anyway, it seems likely that Daniel couldn't have really done it if she'd made it that far away, like as she did. Mm-hmm. And he was still in the local area. I basically just said that, but apparently it's not totally off the cards. The newspapers didn't give a shit if he had an alibi or not, and they literally ripped him to shreds. He was getting verbally abused in the street and he was having a really hard time. When did this happen? 1940? No, 1840. 1841. 1841. I think. Lemme just double check. Yes. 1841. It's nice to know the press hasn't changed. Yeah, literally. I, there also, there's something about, do you know what the penny press is? Where they were just like pumping out fucking pure waffle and shy about people for really cheap, no, I don't know if, I can't remember if I wrote about it in the end or not, but I think it was like around the time where like newspapers would just like had nothing to put in there. Yeah. So put in shy from the local town and they'd just like rip people to shit and just kind of, you could just kind of post anything without really, it was like fucking Ask Apen minute. Yeah. With no backup, no evidence. Yeah, no. Like I don't know. Quotes. Yeah. And no ask Apen references was like the actual wild west of the internet. And if you weren't there, you don't fucking know, man. But like, I'm pretty sure it's where cyber bullying was invented. Oh my God. It was absolutely the most brutal thing. Ask me anything. Why does your mom look like a pig? And you're like, what the fuck? Yeah. And everything was anonymous. So it was like you watch people get battered on Ask FM all the time. Yeah. And also there was this like little, oh God, it was so horrible. Yeah. It was bad. Like I just remember getting home and then just like reading the most fucked up shit. Yeah. And then sometimes you could accidentally not like you could choose whether you wanted to be anonymous or not. And if there was a slip up and then it was someone that you thought was your friend saying something really nasty. Yeah. It something horrible. You Oh, it was so horrible. And then like some people were like giving themselves hate and that all came out and like, it was just like people just didn't know how to fit in. Like, oh, it was vile, it was a vile place. Like that is something that I just really wish could have been different about my childhood. Yeah. Because like that knocked my confidence so much. The beginning of the internet was fucked. I mean, I know that wasn't the beginning of the internet, but like the beginning of the internet for me was like. M, sn and ask fm. Yeah. And Facebook. Yeah. But like, not until I was like, you know, I had most of my childhood, like BBM. Mm-hmm. I had most of my childhood, like playing outside. Yeah. But then at some point I was introduced in secondary school, I was introduced to the idea of being online exactly the same. And that's when it just started to be like fucking horrible. Yeah. And like, because there was so much and like fake Facebook pages. Yeah. Oh my God. I had a fake Facebook. So the first time my mom came into my room and me and Lauren had like bunk beds and my mom was like logging onto Facebook before we even woke up. And Lauren was like, oh, are you making Amy a Facebook account finally or something? And I hadn't really known what Facebook really was that, well, I think it was in like year six or something. So like Babi, like I hadn't, we weren't at secondary school yet. And. And basically my mom was like, yeah, if she hasn't got one already, and there was a Facebook account of me and I was like, mom, I don't even know what Facebook is. And then I started to notice that people had come up to me in, in school and been like, why did you tell me like that I'm ugly on Facebook last night? And I would be like, I don't know what Facebook is. And they'd be like, liar. And then like, walk off. And I'd be like, what's going on? And I hadn't really worked out what happened, but it was obviously making me feel anxious, but I was like, maybe this is just some weird form of bullying. I don't know. Anyway, the, there had been a fake Facebook account made of me from someone else from a different school because someone in my school had rejected this person and said that they liked me or something. I can't really remember what the gist or they didn't like me because. This person had like mentioned me or something, I don't know. But I didn't even know who this person was from another school. And we had to have a whole assembly where the police came in and was like, this is, oh God. Yeah. Like it was really bad. And then in the end, afterwards they were like, someone's been made a fake Facebook account and anyone needs to come forward.'cause this is bullying and this is like catfishing, but the proper word it's like really bad. And then he ended up coming forward and being like, oh, I know who that is. It's this person. And I was like, who the fuck is that? Jesus. And I just didn't even know who it was as was Lenny Henry. Yeah, there was also, as was Henry, as was Lenny Henry, or there was another one called Stockland Green Girl. Yeah. And like, like, is that what my school was called? This one was a fake Facebook account of me, but I also knew about a, an account called Bob, I can't remember what his name was, Bob something. And, and we were all in on that as well. So like, I was, was just bad. Like God, I wasn't Oh my God. Lenny Henry turned out to be like loads of the boys from my ear. Yeah. And there was always people that were like, and loads of them, they all had access to the account. Yes. And then no one ever found out who Stock and Green Girl was and that she like that one did a lot of damage. Yeah. That I can remember. I can't remember. Yeah. They was figured out. How was, there were so many like that. And some of them, like I knew about it and I knew who it was, and other of them like broke up friendships and some we still found out about. So like, I wasn't like all innocent in this, but that was my first ever knowledge of like what Facebook or MSN or anything was. I wasn't allowed anything until I was, was in year eight and like bbo. Yeah. And I, I had none of that stuff. And it was only then when I went into year seven. That my mom was like, well now that, you know, like what damage it can do. Like, I think it was like year eight or something like that. I dunno. But I remember I was in primary school mm-hmm. And like that had already happened and it was just absolutely crazy times like, okay, let's stop talking about this. We keep going off on tangents. Sorry. So around the time of Mary's death, the law enforcement was pretty diabolical in New York City. And this is due to there not being a lot of officers, not a lot of means but also a lot of crime. Yeah. So gang crime overpopulation of people trying to get a better life and just overall 18 hundreds. Chaos. Yeah, I can imagine. Yes. So there's apparently, I don't feel like laws existed in the 18 hundreds. I'm sure they did, but it just doesn't feel like they did. Yeah, it feels really lax, basically. Yeah. And there was two types of officers. There's daytime police who would like, make the rounds and do investigating and overseeing for good rewards and pay. And there's night shift officers that had to deal with all the scary married, like nightmare antics and whatever. They were also often referred to as leatherheads, well, the nighttime ones. Oh, okay. And they would have to, this was because they would have to wear leather helmets to protect themselves if entering burning buildings, protecting them from debris or fights, et cetera. Jesus. So I think the daytime people would be like, dunno how effective a fucking leather helmet is. Yeah. I think it probably turned into like the, the main, yeah. The bat, the batten the bat. Like the battens are different though. Exactly. Like more, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Efficien. Head headgear. Yeah. But this was like kind of how it started. However, nighttime officers would sometimes be known for sleeping on their night watch shifts, meaning gangs and other violence that was roaming around the streets would often go unnoticed or unreported. That means that crime was high and law enforcement was not trusted to help. So yeah, that's just something to note. Mm-hmm. The police checked with Mary's aunt if Mary had made it to hers that day, and she said she hadn't even heard from Mary in a while and that they had no plans at all. Okay. So Mary had her own hush times of whatever she was up to, up to. Yeah. After talking to her employer, John Anderson, the police discovered that she had come to him in the prior, in the days prior, and begged him for a loan. Along this time there was drawings of her beauty being released, including drawings of her body in the river. Yeah. And that was like front page drawings and stuff? Yeah. Like people had, like, even though people hadn't seen that, they were just being like the most beautiful girl found in the lakes and blah, blah blah. Yeah. Like, it was just, ugh, you know? People were writing songs about her and poems about her, like the beautiful, mysterious, murdered girl. This kind of reminds me of, you know, the, is it like the French case? And it's the girl, the girl that became resuscitation, Annie, because like they made a death mask of her. Yes.'cause she was so beautiful. Yes. And now she's a fucking CPR doll. Yeah. It is absolutely crazy. And I think that's like just year, like the fact that the, already the people that worked in media were already obsessed with her. Yeah. But it's also the fact that they could be like, look at this beautiful girl who met her demise and no one knows what happened. And there's such mystery and just this beautiful cigar girl with all of these stories, and no one knew where she was. And like. The mind runs wild, but also the media is just like pumping out fucking gossip left, right, and center. So yeah, it's, it's sad. There was lots of funding provided because of this though, because a lot of people wanted to know what happened, wanted to know what happened. Mm-hmm. So it was given to one of the papers, I think it was the New York Herald. I can't remember, did I write yet? Everyone put money into it and a huge reward was put out for valuable information. But that meant a few cheeky people came forward, one of which was a woman named Mrs. Lost. And Mrs. Loss owned a tavern in the countryside called Nick Moore's house, and she claimed that she had seen a woman who highly resembled Mary Rogers on the night of her disappearance, she said that Mary had come in with a tall, dark man with nothing much else to note, and they got a drink and. Then later when they had left Mrs. Loss heard a scream, and then she was outside, but didn't investigate and put it down to just like drunken noise. Yeah. Noise that happens I imagine in New York. Yeah. All the time. Then her sons found scraps of items of clothing nearby, some scraps of a dress and some gloves with Mr. Embroidered onto them. She was very lucky. Mm. The police were really confused why it took her so long. But maybe the promise of a reward was actually encouragement for someone to come forward because you'll hear some money and you're like, oh, well I do have some gloves. Mm-hmm. There's also no proof of knowing whether this was true or not, but Mary didn't take items with her like a bag or anything, and she was found with gloves on already at the crime scene and they were unharmed. Okay. So, so it just feels, it doesn't sound like those are her gloves. Yeah. Unless like she had some gloves, like in a, in a bag pocket or something. Yeah, exactly. It's just like, but also I guess there's a very good chance that this. Person just made this up because there was a reward. The fact that there's an Mr. Embroidered on it, it seems like awfully co convenient, awfully fucking convenient. Yeah. Yeah, so it sort of does sound like Mrs. Loss has caught wind of her clothes being ripped and had a good description of what she was wearing. So it could have just replicated the items and made up the story for the reward. So nothing really came of it. Yeah. However she actually wasn't done because on her deathbed, however many years later, also put here from accidentally being shot by one of her sons. Sus. Yeah. This gal changes her story and says that Mary had actually come to her tavern that night to book a room accompanied by a local physician who helped out ladies with premature delivery. Oh. Apparently the abortion went wrong and Mary had died from this, obviously. Surely there'd be signs of that on her body. Yes. You would think. You would think. Yeah, I think there was, I don't know how you, I think there was signs of assault, sexual assault. Okay. So actually it could have been, and if the, that bruising or Exactly, it could be an abortion that's gone wrong. Also. This is highly illegal at this point. Yeah. So they would've had to have covered all of that up completely. Yeah. Mrs. Lost said that one of her sons apparently helped the physician to remove the body and the evidence because yeah. And they all vowed to like never speak a bit again. Okay. But like, why would you drop your sons in? Maybe he shot her and she was like, she was like, I'm fucking sending this bastard to prison. Yeah. I'm gonna say you were an abortion and just get you arrested. Yeah. I don't know. And why would you come forward with the clothing? Like, it just sounds like someone that's trying to get involved in something that isn't really anything to do with her. But then I guess if it is true, and then she did actually have Mary's gloves. And she was like, I'm gonna get some, you know, I'm gonna get some money from this. Then she did. It would be far enough away from the, the true story. But it just seems like if you are already involved, just don't get involved because no one was even Yeah, but people are dumb, aren't they? Yeah. No one's even breathing her name and then she just saying like, every time someone makes a phone call to the police or like, fucking BT can. Yeah. Can I send you a floppy disc? Yeah. And you won't be able to trace me, will you? No, no, we won't. Definitely not. We won't. Obviously. Definitely not my dear. Yeah, I don't know. There's lots of why's. There's lots of how, like, what the fuck That is quite a big theory because obviously then she dies and there's no proof of it. And it's been long enough that people are like, well, we can't work out if that's true or not. Yeah. So like, I guess we just assume that that could be a possibility. Yeah. Basically all dead ends. No one knew a hundred percent where Mary had gone, whether it was a secret affair, which is quite a common theory. An abortion gone wrong, a jealous lover or ex lover, no one knew if it was gang violence, which we'll kind of go on to talk about a little bit. But unfortunately after months and months of the media publicly berating Daniel and just saying it was all of his fault because there was no other solution. He went to Sybil's Cave where Mary's body was found on one of his binges, and he overdosed on Laden louder, no idea what that is. It's an opium dissolved in alcohol to take effect. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, apparently I couldn't find out what it said, but the note gave people more inclination to blame him for the death. Whereas it is also to some people just him apologizing for not being there for her and letting it end on an argument. Yeah.'cause like he could very easily have said something like, I'm so sorry, Mary. Yeah. And it, like he said, it was all his fault or something like that. But I think he's saying, wouldn't you blame yourself regardless anyway, I think he's saying I should just should've sorted my shit out. I should've been there for you. We should have fought fault. And maybe you wouldn't have gone off. I shouldn't have let you go off in a storm. I should've checked on you. Like, I don't know. I don't think it necessarily, I don't, yeah, that, I don't think that either, to me points exactly. To guilt. Yeah, exactly. Like it is a massive theory that he did it and then took his own life after, but I just like, there's no proof of that. Yeah. And it just seems like a really sad story for him. Yeah. I think he just couldn't look at the body. Not because he felt guilty, but because he was like, I can't look at, hello. Ah. Yes, so that's one of the theories. There's obviously the abortion theory. There's another theory of her ex-fiance, Alfred Lin Rolin, as he was potentially about to be rejected by Mary again. Again. Yeah. And maybe he didn't want her to get married to someone else. Yes. I could see that. If I can't have you. He moved down the road, so it sounds like quite obsessive. Mm-hmm. Some people have theorized that it was one of her many fans that would come to the shop. This is, I did write it. One report is of a guy just spending all afternoon at slash outside the tobacco shop just to look at her. I hate that. Yeah. So some of the creepy people that were in there, they weren't just like, wow, you're beautiful and let me buy some tobacco from you. Like also, which is also like, just chill out. Yeah. But like there were some people that would hang around all day, so it could be any of them. Yeah. There's also a theory that her employer, John Anderson, may have done it after speculation about him setting up her disappearance as more than it was, even though it was still source from her, just disappearing. He kind of, I don't think, I don't think that he could, might, couldn't have done it. Like he might be a possibility. I just think the reasoning there doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes. Because it feels like she was worth a lot more to him alive. Exactly. And also like stories stop. Yeah. Whereas like if she'd been alive, she would've still been there and he could have maybe done a few more different, but like surely people would stop going. Yeah. After she was dead eventually, and I think it made his place pop off while it, for a minute. It was massive minute. Yeah. And people would visit it like a tourist attraction. So he did get clout because obviously this case had got so massive. Yeah. But that's a gamble to even know that that's gonna happen. Yeah. And if, you know, if, if she was bringing the customers Yeah. Even the brightest stars burn out, so. Exactly. Exactly. It's like too much of a gamble to think that the Taurus attraction thing would work. Yeah, a hundred percent. But also it could have been him because he'd trialed it before with trying to say that she'd gone missing due to suicide and I don't know. Yes. I, yeah, I put here he was also getting rich just from having her working there, so it is a gamble. Yeah. The coroner's report state that Mary's clothes had been ripped in areas that implied she had been sexually, it had been a sexually motivated crime. She also had been brutally attacked and there was reports that said it looked like it could have been more than one individual. Okay. Right. So, but it wasn't. This is potentially where a gang comes in. Yes. It wasn't definitely more than one individual, but it could, it could potentially be, yeah. Also, I guess if she's been in the river and been like, yeah. Knocked about a bit like it, I don't know. Hard to tell. Yeah. Especially in the 18, 18 hundreds, I imagine. Exactly. So this leads to some people theorizing that this was a gang related crime. As I said previously, gang violence in New York at the time was really high and the law enforcement was really low. So a lot of gang violence went unnoticed, especially seeing as raping women wasn't even seen to be that big of a deal until Nira when me and you were born. Yeah. So like it just. I dunno, I doubt anyone would've stood up to a gang doing something like that to a woman back then anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And disposing of her body is a lot easier when you have help, so that is a very likely theory, seeing as she was meant to be heading back home in the evening in the stormy weather, she could have easily been stopped and taken with no one noticing or doing anything about her. Yeah. No one interfering. Yeah. However, it seems, it seems weird that she already had so much, like she was so infamous with that it wasn't someone that she necessarily knew. Mm-hmm. Because it seems so likely that it could have been like her jealous ex lovers and like Yeah. You know, it feels like there's a lot of options there really isn't there? Yeah. Because like, it could just be somebody walking down the street and being like, oh my God, that's beautiful. Scar girl. Yeah. And being like, I'm gonna do whatever I want right now. Or, you know, there is this whole love triangle going on in her whole life. Yeah. So that is a possibility. Mm-hmm. I, I think like it strikes me as in her life, if it was gonna be anybody. It feels like the Cromwell guy makes the most sense. Yeah, because rejected Lin once Rolin, sorry. Yeah. Like or rejected once potentially gonna be rejected again. Mm-hmm. Like she's engaged to somebody else. I can't have you. No one can vibe esque. I don't know. I just, I'm not saying that's what I think happened. I'm just saying like, if it's anyone she knows, he feels like he makes the most sense. Agreed completely. And it could be that she was going off to have an abortion, but unless she was, unless a secret affair had come to light somehow during all of this, I don't really think that is valid either because she was about to, she could just marry whichever one had quite, you know what I mean? Yeah. And it, it's very dangerous. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, it's not done and there is a very good chance that you will die. So like if, if she, if she wasn't in relationship, if she had the option of like just marrying one Yeah. And being like, well now we're having a baby. Like, great. Yeah. Fantastic. In fact, that she had two people Yeah. Literally begging to marry her. It's not like she was about to be an unwed mother. Exactly. And like she was terrified of the premise of that. I dunno. I just think like, but then I guess if she was pregnant by the Daniel and you know, he's a drunk and like mm-hmm. Or you know, maybe Cromwell says, you're not coming back to me with that baby. Yeah, you just do not know. Sorry. And you don't know what she's like because there's so much. Yeah. She'd gone away before and no one knew where she'd gone. She said she was going to visit her aunt, but she wasn't like, she was already lying about too many variables. Yeah. Like even if it was a freak accident and it was a gang that had just pounced on her while she was going, she still wasn't going where she said she was gonna go. So yeah, there's still so much mystery to her. And I think that's why it popped off so much. Because feels like, feels like she could have been having an affair. Yeah. With somebody. Maybe someone that she really couldn't marry. She marry, yeah. Someone that she couldn't marry. Somebody potentially married and either they've taken her life or she is having an abortion and it had gone wrong and has gone. But again, even if it's somebody else's baby, you could just marry one of them. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. What information did we, yeah, I don't know. It's just such a gamble. Like I don't know anything that she was up to. And there's literally no answer to this at all. Fuckery. I know. Apparently this case though, was talked about for so long after, because the conversations about violence towards women controlling gang violence, getting better system for law enforcement especially night shift, night watch shifts in New York was all reconsidered. Laws were changed and stuff. And it would always go back to Mary Rogers and say like, this is what happens when Yeah, yeah, yeah. If there was people on awake Yeah. On the night shifts, then gangs would be controlled. And maybe this wouldn't have happened with no evidence and, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Conversations about violence towards women and how women are treated and if women would feel safer about being able to talk out about things like abortion and stuff like that. Like it was all. At the time kind of pushing everything in the right direction for women's rights and stuff. Mm-hmm. Obviously it did take on ongoing Yeah. Process of time. But she, her name was constantly brought up in the news. It was also brought up in the reporting world as it developed to prevent printing press articles to spread gossip and sexualize women. And I put again, granted this took a while and still some waffle is posted today. Yeah. But she has just been a huge topic for trying to prevent objectifying women and preventing women being in vulnerable positions that expose them to getting attacked and left dead in such a brutal way with obviously no copying from the New York Police Force. So yeah, that is the story of the beautiful cigar girl, Mary Cecilia Rogers. I have never heard that one. Yeah. That's the first one on here that I never knew anything about, even Dolly. Yeah. Dolly Storch, that was such a world turn event when you were like, I, I know what this is. I've connected the dots and I remembered what we're talking about. Yeah. Wild. Yeah. That is wild. It is actually kind of mad how like similar their lives and actually almost exactly a hundred years apart. Yeah. I'm, I'm intrigued for green us to come back and sit right back here and go through the same diabolical shit. But anyway. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Sorry about the fucking waffle. Dunno what was going on today. I know. I loved it. I'm gonna keep all of it in Enjoy. Yeah. Do. Except for the one bit where we talk about our colleague's name. Oh yeah. When we mentioned that's coming out somebody's name and kind of where we work that bit can come out. Yeah. But the rest is stadium. Let's go have a pop noodle and come back. Thank you very much. Yeah. You know, email us, you know, the Instagram, if you don't know it by now, then you should go back and listen to one of the other episodes where we could be asked to tell you. Yeah, exactly. And it's just kill the mood. Find it all. Yeah. Stay spooky. Stay spooky. Bye.