The Pizza Bomber

This week, we’re heading to Erie, Pennsylvania in 2003, where a bizarre bank robbery unfolded into one of the strangest and most disturbing crimes in modern history.

In this episode, we explore the case of the “Pizza Bomber.” A man walks into a bank, and what follows quickly spirals into something far more complex and unsettling.

We’ll touch on the key events, the people involved, and the investigation that tried to make sense of it all.

So grab a drink, settle in… this one isn’t just strange, it’s downright bonkers.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Welcome to Gilden Moon Podcast. We're here to talk about everything spooky-dooky. We're not professionals and we mean no offense in anything we say. This is just us trying to make sense of the senseless. Without further ado, this week's case is A Pizza Bomber!

SPEAKER_00 0:27

I wonder if we shouldn't just do a recording of each of our voices doing that. Yeah, it would make so much sense. And then we just the first thing we say is a name of the. But anyway, we'll talk about it. Well, it's not even that big a deal. But hello, welcome back. We have not done this for two weeks. Yeah, two weeks. Two weeks. We have not sat in front of the mics. Do it at least. Yeah. It doesn't feel like it was ages ago. We do two at a time, so we don't really sit in front of the mics for a while. Yeah. And then obviously we release as we get and then that sort of bit. Also, I don't know. Maybe I'll have to edit this on Monday night. Because I'm away this weekend. I have to remember. I have to remember to do that. Stick it in my brain. Yeah. So we're recording. Uh how are you guys? Yeah. We don't know what's going on. Tom's back, fuck. It's not Tom, it's Sean, I think, because Tom's playing games till nine.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

God, we've really fucked this though because it's half eight.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

I know. I don't know why we've only just started because we're too busy yet again having points.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

I feel like it's just the sun. It's the sun's fault. That's bloody sun. It's messed us up.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

It's every single time it's out, I'm just like, we could just have a cheeky little bit, but we always record after we've finished work. So we get back from work and then immediately it's just like, it's sunny though, so shall we go for a pint first? When you've been stuck inside all day as well, I feel like it would be rude to just come back here and then just stare at the screen again. We go have a couple pints, chin a couple siggies, and then we're like, yeah, let's get on the pod, shall we?

SPEAKER_03 1:52

I know. And we literally went for one, Tom left.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

And then we were like, should we have another one? Chi little mother. Stay there the whole time. Anyway, I was like, okay, I said to we me and Amy were just having a little rant, just as we do about work in general, as we always do before we start the pod. But I was just saying that I would like to acknowledge today is actually a year ago today that we uh cremated my brother. So it's actually not been a bad day. We've done this fuck about. It was quite nice. We like, yeah, I we worked, but I made sure that me and Amy were on shift together, so that if I was having a little wobbly turn, it was like gonna be alright.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

And to be fair, the first half of the day, nothing really happened anyway. My sister also works with us and she just carried the Yeah, she really Lauren really did bits for us today. We were both at one point just stood there and asked, What should we eat? And I was like, should we go outside?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

And I was like doing stuff like fucking picking min, it was not even remotely stuff that I should be doing.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Literally beauty in the beast coating us just picking it and throwing it into a basket.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Just some easy tasks, but it was a good day.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Flapping details over and over to make it look like we're doing something, but yeah, we've had a chill day.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

We thought we'd have a little pint for Daryl.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yes. Until we poured one out for him, which was cute, which was really cute. That's how it should be done. Yeah. Anyway, so that's us. And shall we just get straight into it? I don't think we've got anything to yabble about.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

I kind of know bits about this, but yeah, I know it, but I don't know it.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yes. Wow, also it's such a carnage case. Like, yeah, there's so much to it to the point where I was watching a dock on it, and eventually I just had to switch the dock off and be like, I've got to wrap this shit up. I've just got to wrap it up because this is getting ridiculous now. And I was like, if I keep going, this is gonna be like ridiculous. I know mine is long. But I did make sure because we did two unsolved, so I was like, I'm gonna do a basically solved, but also kind of mystery. Fuck basically solved, but kind of mystery. That's where we're at. So it's not unsolved, but it's still a bit eerie.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Also, my dad was giving me the lore about barristers and what they do, and he re-explained it to me again yesterday, and I was like, Oh, we'll talk about this on the pod, and then now I can't I can't remember what he said. He was like, Do you understand? And I was like, Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah, get it. She just started drilling the wall. What's happened is, and she does not know how to re-explain. So I just can't retain him. Yeah, maybe she'll have an epiphany halfway through this and she'll remember. I'll read you in the next one.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

I'll read you what you said, but man is dyslexic, okay? It's just one long sentence, which is definitely where I get it from. Yeah, you should see Amy's notes. Yeah, we should see his notes and then you'll understand.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, mine are like, I like I'm oh, I'm writing a narrative, I'm giving a story, it's a full story, and I get to the end, and I'm like, I'm bored, I don't want to do it anymore. And they all died. Yeah, basically. That's it. That's the cliff notes of every episode we've ever done. So we're gonna start on August 28th, 2003. Three-year-old Brian Wells walks into PC Bank in Erie, Pennsylvania. Erie? Erie!

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Pennsylvania. Let's get it. I don't know why I just did that.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

I was fucking yeah, anyway. Yeah, so Erie, great name. I don't think I'd say it again. Then that's it. We'll just keep bringing it back. Yeah, yeah, just bring up Erie every now and then. Around his neck was a large metal collar, and he was walking with a cane. So he appears, he like he goes into the bank and he appears to join the queue for the counter, but then he like changes his mind. So, like, we see all this on CCTV, by the way. He changes his mind and then is oh, I'm just gonna walk around. So he walks around to the front of the line, and then he hands the bank teller a note, and the note demands that they give him $250,000. Weak amount, yeah. Strive bigger, my lads.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Literally, $100 million.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yeah, it is a strange amount for starters, like it's not very big, but then I guess maybe there are some rules about what a bank teller can give over the counter, which I didn't look into. So, like maybe that's something to do with it. Yeah, is there an amount? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Give me what's your limit? Yeah, that you have a limit.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

What can I withdraw?

unknown 6:05

Withdraw with notes.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

Here's a note, eerie AF. But I would still like to respectfully withdraw the correct amount, the correct amount, no higher.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

So yeah, he says $250,000, please. And then he doesn't say that, the note says that. And then they realize very quickly that what he's holding is not a cane, it is actually a gun disguised as a cane. I love that then. Yeah. Insane, absolutely insane. And it's not, I know I'm not supposed to say that, but I say it every time. I literally the whole thing is just fucking bonkers. Yeah. So what we're here for. The teller doesn't give him £250,000. Sorry, pounds, dollars. My bad. We're not in the UK. But he does manage to get $8,000 in cash.

SPEAKER_04 6:55

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

So they give him $8,000, and then he just walks out of the bank and he goes to See.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

If he'd said $100 million, he probably would have got Yeah. See, this is not the tag too.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

You can't start with the lowballing because they'll come in with a counter of eight and then fucking dumb. And then I wonder if they were like 2,000. No. What about $12,000? Can I take and they were like eight? And he was like, I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll take it. You know what? Bad negotiation because it wasn't even half. But whatever. What can you do? Not rob a bank. I still lived in them. So he then walks out of the bank and goes to McDonald's that's really close by. Yeah. I will have however many quarter pounds. Eight grand. You want to feel so bad about this. No, I'm joking. No, I'm not. So he does that briefly before he returns to his car. So the Mackeys is really close to the bank. So I don't even think he goes back to his car. I think he goes maybe walks over to the Mackeys. I don't know. I didn't get my fucking fact straight. Maybe I should have, but there was a lot going on in the stock. I'd just like to say. So he walks to the McDonald's and then I'm lying, he might have drove. I'm not sure. Appears. Yeah, he's at the McDonald's and then he goes back to his car. He gets in his car. Meanwhile, obviously the bank's just been robbed. They're calling 911 and they're saying, we've been robbed. Can you come quickly?

SPEAKER_03 8:19

I'm curious about the Mackeys, though, because Did he go to the till?

SPEAKER_00 8:23

I've seen the threes. I don't have the screens. I don't think so. No kiosks. And he's got a metal chain around his neck and a gun as a cane. In the CCTV, it looks like his shirt is. You can see that he's got a collar on, but his shirt is quite up and it's covering something at the front. But you can see the collar around his neck on the side.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

I mean to be fair, the local Mackeys to us, we when I went to college near there, they we used to have a guy that just was called Butt Monkey because Good name. Because he just used to wander around outside and pick up all the cigarette butts and always gonna be different story.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Just had his ass out. Pure assless chaps every day at the man's. It's just double butt.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

It's double butt. But I just feel like, yeah, maybe at McDonald's you're just like, oh, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah, we'll talk about maybe a bit later, but he I don't think he goes to the counter. He just goes into the McDonald's and then out and then yeah, goes back to his car. So they're calling 911 at this point, and obviously, police respond quite quickly to robberies. So the police arrive on the scene and then surround his car. They get him out of the vehicle and they cuff him and they sit him on the floor, not a little bit further away from his car, but in front of his car. And so that yeah, they do all of that, and while he's doing this, Wells begins to tell the police a story. And while he's telling them a story, he's saying, I'm a pizza delivery driver who was just carrying out a delivery and I was jumped by a group of black men. That's exactly what he says. He then these men then strapped the collar to him and sent him to the bank with the demand note. But the collar is actually a bomb.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Yes. A domb. I have seen the clips of him.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Yes, yes, you can watch it all. It's brutal. And it's in the dock as well. It's more than you would like to see, I think, for some people. Don't look at it if you're you find stuff like that grisly because it's not good. Then obviously, the police are like, he tells them this is a neck bomb and it's on a timer, and then it's gonna blow up. So obviously, all automatically the police will run away, and they're like hiding behind the cars, and they leave this man sat in the road in front of his car. Very calm. Yeah, very calm.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

I feel like I watch this a lot.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Very calm for what's going on, but then you don't know like I don't know how I would react if someone strapped a bomb around my neck.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

To be fair, I wouldn't want to make any sudden movement in the day. Do you know what I mean? Even though it's on a timer and you're not necessarily gonna set it off, I would still be like very small motions. Like I wouldn't be like, ah! I'd just be like, stay very still. This is a bomb.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Yeah, maybe you would be quite eerily calm because you're scared of if you're I don't know, if your heart rate gets too wild and you start panicking, like maybe she's gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

I mean, I'm saying that's what I would do. I don't know, I'd probably be screaming my head off. But no, if someone's told you that's a bomb, yeah, in my head, it's like don't make any movements. No sudden movements.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

But then we'll get into it. But then you've been walking around at the same time. I don't know. Yeah. The police call in the bomb squad and they're like really not sure if he's telling the truth about this around his neck, or actually maybe he's just stalling for some time because he's trying to rob the bank and he's trying to keep the police away from him. Like, but at this point, he is cuffed and sat on the floor. It's a hard gamble, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Let's go close to him and potentially disarm a bomb. Yes. Because we think he might be pretending. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

And then you get to him and you don't fucking bomb. Yeah, you don't know how realistic he's being. Also, timer. Yeah. How long? How long? A lot. Yeah. Scary. And like, I'm they're having some back and forth conversation with him. But yeah. So at this point, the news cameras have started to arrive really quickly, have heard probably through police scanners or whatever the fuck they've hear through that there's a robbery going on and that this guy's sat in the middle of the road. So they're arriving and then Jack is. Is anyone a videographer? Yeah. This in this day and age, like 2003, not so much, but in this day and age, everyone would have a fucking phone on it. Oh yeah, for sure. So they're broadcasting this live. As the newsbands and stuff arrive, they're recording him, there's people talking, they're telling the public what's going on, but there are cameras on him while this is happening. So then just as the bomb squad are only a few minutes away, the collar starts to beep.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Yeah, oh my god, I remember this so clearly. Terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

And then doesn't he does he then start freaking out? So this changes his this changes his calm demeanor somewhat. He starts, he's not fucking full on, oh my god, it's gonna go, it's gonna go, but he's he you can see that the panic is there. So yeah, he's he is then in quite an a like a panic state, but not the way that you would think. He's I I think I say it in a minute, like some of the things that he's saying as this is happening, but he's still like relatively calm, but there's more panic in his voice, you can tell. Yeah, yeah. Then the unthinkable happens, the neck bomb detonates, killing Brian instantly on live TV, and the doc that you watch, you see it happen. You watch the moment that it detonates, and you see him like fall back. Yeah, oh my god. So there in the footage before this happens, you can see him telling them, Hopefully, you can get the keys and get me out of this, and then when it begins to beep, he starts to be slightly less calm and he's like, It's gonna go off. So I remember it so well. I can't really remember much else about the actual case, but I think because I've watched that it's seared in your brain, it's like I can remember exactly everything about that whole scene. And I watched this last night. I had already decided that this was the case that I was gonna do, and I'd already seen the dock, which is called Evil Genius, and it's been on Netflix for a really long time, and I've definitely watched it before, so I already knew about this, but I was like, I'm gonna give it a rewatch, and yeah, it's fucking harrowing. It is yeah, it's so scary, and like you know, you want to pass judgment about how calm he is really early on, but like you just can't know what that would be like.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

You just don't know if it's fragile, you're worried that one's tiny movement is gonna do it's someone just maybe trying to be like, if I remain calm, I might get out of this.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Yeah. The one scary thing that I was like is like I whether you will go through the story, but like whether I know that there was some indecision about this was something that he'd done, or whether the bomb was real and stuff, but there are no attempts to help him or to get the collar off him.

SPEAKER_04 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

They do call the bomb squad, so obviously they're waiting for them to come so they can go up to him and try and detonate the bomb, and that is probably like full-on procedure, like no policeman should just be there. But it is it's quite sad, he's just there on his own, and there's cameras pointed at him, and everyone is like, all the police are behind their cars, guns out at him, yeah, and he's just by himself in the middle of this road. Yeah, so the bomb squad arrives on the scene basically within minutes, maybe seconds after the bomb detonates, yeah, and they are the ones that go up and confirm that Wells is dead. Yeah. So then they sorry, it's so fucking insane this whole case. So they arrive and then they see they confirm that he's dead, and they see that part of the device is actually still attached around his neck. So it's detonated, and I think they say that a piece of shrapnel has blown through his chest. So it hasn't blown off his head. I mean, it's not, it wasn't a big enough bomb that it's but it's done enough damage to him, and that killed him, I think, instantly. Hopefully, instantly. Yeah, god that's all you can hope for. So they decide that what they need to do next is search the car, the bomb squad, and ensure that there's no more devices in the car, which makes so much sense. So when they start searching his car, they recover a multi-page set of instructions, and they were allegedly given to Wells, and they were notes for the bank tellers, right, notes for the police, and even notes for the bank manager. Really long-winded, scrawled-out notes. Mackie's order. Yes. And actually, the notes was one of the so basically when they go to the car, they realise the notes, there's other notes that outline a like a scavenger hunt style series of tasks that he has to complete in order to track down the keys to remove the bomb.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

So he he one of the stops for the Mackeys was part of the scavenger hunt, which is why I don't think he went to the counter. He'd have gone in, they would have said, See this piece of tape, and it's a I don't know what it was in the Mackeys, but that's one of the notes detailed that there was a clue to get to the keys in that McDonald's near the. And because he got surrounded, they were like, Yeah, it stopped him in his tracks getting through the scavenger hunt, and it was quite clear the route that he's taking that he was following these notes. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

So it then implies that he is literally understanding manipulation as opposed to it being him, unless someone's wrote themselves their own note to make it look like.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

So quite quickly, you're assuming from this. What is the point? You're assuming that there's somebody else involved, and there's obviously some back and forth about okay, did he do this as a alone as a stun, or did someone double cross him? Yeah. Or is he a completely innocent delivery man who got jumped and this collar was put on him? Yep. So the police are like, what the fuck is going on? No idea. So the police decide that they're gonna follow the next step of instructions, which feels the smart thing to do, and go to the next place where he would have gone after the McDonald's, like where they'd caught him, where was he going? And it seemed like that was the direction. A fucking scavenger hunt. I too love a scavenger hunt. I'd be like, Yeah, but also I'd be fucking breaking the fuck out.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Because you're terrified, because it might be like, oh, that was always the plan the whole time was that he was gonna get surrounded, obviously, really quickly from robbing a bank and then get surrounded, blow his head off, and then the police will be like, obviously, we'll carry on with this little sneaky little scavenger hunt, and then they get to the next place, blow them up as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yes, and you don't know that the whole premise of it was not about getting money, it was about like the terrorist attacks. They're working off very unsure circumstances, which makes it slightly understandable about what happened with Wells and they tried to get the bomb squad in and they didn't have enough time. Also, the fact that you're asking for 250,000. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

It just doesn't feel like you're saying go in there, bring back all of this money, go to this place.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

To rob a bank for 250,000 as well. I don't know, it just doesn't seem it's a very strange amount. Yeah. A very strange amount.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

Just text some rich fucking twat. Yeah. Come to this location, otherwise I'll blow up your house.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

So they're basically they go to this next set of instructions and they find a coffee can on the side of the road with more instructions in it. Okay. So that was where he was headed before he was stopped. He was following out the instructions of the scavenger hunt. So then they follow each clue, and when they get to the next location, basically they were saying it was like a piece of orange tape that was tied to a tree that had Vietnam printed on the side of it.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

And there they found more instructions. But while they were there, it was like a bit of a wooded area. They noticed that there was a minivan that was like driving towards them at the scene. When this minivan is driving towards them, it seems like they get quite surprised and startled, and then they drive off really quick. Drive off, and then they're like, fuck, this is this is probably something they try to follow, but they can't follow, and the minivan gets away. And they describe it as a blue minivan.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

And the guy, the investigator that was there, is talking about this minivan, and he was like, I really felt that this was something to do with the case, and that this is where they would have picked up Wells with the money, yeah, and then maybe they would have given him the keys or whatever. So that's where they get to, and they get to they do this, like one thing I do have to say about the police is I'm not saying that they didn't do things that were like a bit, but it they're like very on it very quickly. They're like doing what they can to try and solve this.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

When my parents were round yesterday, they were talking about I was like, Oh, I need to do some pod research, bye.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

And then they were like, Oh, they should do this case, should you do this case in Birmingham, blah blah blah. And then my dad was like, Tanisha will love that one. The police were shy. Thank you, Steve. It's like the police were just not doing what they should have been, and Tanisha will just love that.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Yeah, and this is our resident X Copper, one of the good ones.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

I was like, You know, we love you, granddad.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

And he was like, No, but we love you with our whole heart.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

It just really made me laugh. I was like, Yeah, you know that we love to just go in hard on the police whenever we can.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

So, um, yeah, they that's that happens. Obviously, the minivan disappears and they don't manage to find it. So that's that. The case quickly shifts from a robbery to quite a big conspiracy because it's like, what the fuck's gone on? It's not just somebody robbing a bank, it seems like this whole elaborate scheme to get this quite small in in people's minds amount of money is.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Yeah. And they were still potentially at the place where they were gonna collect the money. Which implies that it's even more than one person.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

And that they maybe weren't watching.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Yeah, that it it has to be more than one person because if someone's driving the mini.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

And knows and was the same person that detonated the bomb, then they would know not to go to the place for pickup because the police now have their hands on the scanner.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

And this is it. Also, whoever set the timer, and it isn't clear if Wells knew how long he had on the timer.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

And it started beeping. Come on, guys, we can do this. It's gonna go off. Like, how does he know that that's 10 seconds?

SPEAKER_00 22:24

It's not but whoever set the timer knows how long he's got. So surely from the moment it was clipped onto him is timing and knows that it's detonated. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

And you're being like, either that's you've set that off, or it was always bound to go off at a certain amount of time.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

But if it was bound to go off at a certain amount of time, he was taking too long, you would know that the bomb had already gone off.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah. And if you detonated it yourself, you would already know that the bomb. And also, what I don't understand is like, how do they not consider that that you were sending him to a Mackey's that's right near what the bank you just robbed?

SPEAKER_01 22:59

You're not considered there real fast.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah, are you not considering that he was caught by the police? So then how were you expecting to get the money?

SPEAKER_02 23:08

Yeah, and I just don't get it that whoever's in that minivan didn't wasn't already aware that the bomb had been detonated. Yeah. And if it is a terrorist attack or the fuck the police type situation, wouldn't they have waited if they were watching, then they would have waited until the bomb squad got there.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

What will become done it in front of when we get into the making of the bomb, what was in it, and what we don't go too far in it because I got bored and I was like But the reality is essentially it's just a timer and a pipe bomb, and two pipe bombs, sorry. It's not they're not controlling it from outside, they're not detonating it, it's not a cell phone signal, it is a timer, so it was always on it was always the same amount of time, and you just meant to put in two hours and accidentally put two hours. And I don't I didn't write in this, but it's essentially two timers, and one of the keys resets a timer to give him more time to give him more time. So the Mackeys one was not that key. We don't even I doesn't from what I could tell, it wasn't that he picked up another a key in Mackey's, it's that he picked up a note telling him where to go next.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

Again, what these people could do with their intention.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Right using it for this for £250,000. I would love for £250,000, but really Yeah, the fact that you know how to do that, you could do the coolest shit with that. Yeah, you even know how to make a fucking bomb, a neck bomb. Whatever. The fact that you can have like And you can make it sophisticated enough that it doesn't go off when he's just fucking toddling about. Imagine if they popped out some kids instead and they were doing an Easter egg hunt on Easter Sunday. That scavenger hunt would have been unfinished. It would have been unreal. So anyway. So then they the police are like, next thing we do is we go to Well's house. And obviously they're like treating it as if there could be explosives and stuff, so the bomb squad's there, they surround it, blah blah blah, all of that. And then they go in and they find nothing linking him to the bombing, like nothing at all. And the only thing that they do find is an address book with contact details of some known sex workers. I cannot stress to you enough if you watch the documentary, how much they say prostitute. It's one point they say it so many times in a sentence, it doesn't feel like a real word anymore. But so it's they find this book and they're like, Yeah, okay, that's it. That's all they find at his house that's of any note, basically. Yeah, which is just not really a lot to go off, is it? It's not really got anything to do with the premise of what's going on here. And his body is not taken or even moved until three o'clock in the morning. So it's just out there this entire time. That's terrible. And in some of the live news footage, they're like zoning in on him, and he is literally they've taken his clothes off, and he's just lying in the middle of the road, he's dead in the middle of the road with just in his underwear. Yeah. Just give him some food. No, no respect. I'm not saying they shouldn't have done that because they need to see if the bomb is gonna detonate again or whatever. But there's no there was it just doesn't feel like there's a lot of respect for this man. Regardless of whether he was involved or not, he's still a human being. Yeah. Who was murdered? The fact that even if he was involved, he's blown himself up. Yeah. Whatever is going on there, it's complicated, it's difficult. And the bomb was quite clearly not designed to do damage to anybody but the person wearing it. It the explosion, it sounds crazy, but the explosion is so small that even if someone was stood within his vicinity, I'd it might have been like a cut from a little bit of shrapnel or something, but I don't think it would have done it.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Yeah, it would have to be like some final destination shit before it's not.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

It doesn't, it the explosion is not that massive, it's quite pained. Yeah, it's quite eerie. So they yeah, they don't move his body to the till it's safe to do so, and they take it to the coroner's office at about 3am. Since part of the collar is actually still attached, um they can get some info. They are like, we've basically got this bomb. It's it's gonna be quite easy to put the bomb back together. They've got quite all the pieces, and it's still there. However, what they decide is that the bomb is more important than his body. So they actually decide to decapitate him to preserve the colour. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

As if Bro hasn't gone through enough of this.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

So Gene Hyde, one of Brian's three sisters, I think he also has a brother. I only saw one brother, maybe there's others, but he definitely has three sisters, comments on his character in a statement describing him as a devoted, selfless carer for his family.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Yeah. So neighbours describe Wells as a very friendly and almost childlike man. One of his neighbours did mention in an interview, though, that Wells really liked to take part in the Great Key Hunt, which is an eight-week progressive scavenger hunt that starts in the paper and then they put clues in the paper and then they send people to locations. And she talks about how once he was really close to getting the clue, but he just about missed out on it.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

No, but to be honest, if someone blew one of us up and they were like, God, they had a true crime podcast.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Yes. Have you seen how many of those case walls she's got in her house?

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Literally. Yeah. She loved a murder. Maybe there was a slight calmness to him because he was like, you know what? I'm good at the scavenger hunt. It's a fuck situation, but this is my job. Yeah. And I'm just gonna nail the shit.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

You can't rule out that they didn't pin him. Pin him, and they didn't spot him, and that he was good at scavenger hunts, and that he was the good a good victim to choose. Yeah, exactly. Someone that would have played ball. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

Obviously, you would because if you don't, you will just die. But the fact that maybe he was like, I can do this.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

And maybe he could like, maybe when he first got the collar put on him, he was fucking freaking out. And then he was like, Do you know what? I can do a scavenger, let's do this. Follow the cube, prop clues, get out of this. And then he saw the police and he was like, get this collar off me. Yeah. But trying to be as calm as possible. We're always being diplomatic of what he knows and what he doesn't know, okay? Yeah. That doesn't mean that is that doesn't mean that he's guilty by any means. So obviously the police are like really trying to figure out whether he's involved or whether he's been double-crossed or he's just the victim. They start looking into his movements in the bank, and that's when we see the CC TV that he joins the queue and then decides to go round. Yeah. In the CCTV, they do see that he is really calm. So calm that when he walks up to the counter, there's a pot of lollipops on the counter, and he like picks one up and puts it in his mouth. This is just giving autism. Oh yeah, maybe. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 29:51

This is just giving someone that's really fucking passionate about it.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Maybe even soon. Someone just being like, I need to do something with my hands. I really fucking care about scavenger hunts, and the only way out of this situation is with my fucking head screwed on.

SPEAKER_03 30:03

Yeah. Standing still in a queue is probably the most nerve-wracking thing that you have to do when you have something like autism or ADHD.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

And also, when the time is of the fucking essence, you're gonna be like, I need to remain calm.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

He thinks about joining the queue, and then he says, Oh, actually, no, it's not a good idea to draw the queue. So I'm gonna start round, go to the front, and then he gets them those lollipops, and he's calm down, take this, put it in your mouth, calm down, just calm, literally calm down. I am fully on this man's side. Yeah, fair enough. I the reality is like there's not really ever gonna be an answer whether Brian Wells was involved or not. And like, yeah, unfortunately for him, regardless, he's a victim. He's just he's a victim.

SPEAKER_03 30:45

Whatever was going on, even if he knew about it and willingly said yes, yeah, he didn't think he would literally die.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

And at the end of the day, even if he knew what was going down, he's still being threatened because they've strapped a fucking death wish onto his.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

I also think we'll talk about it later, but like you're there's gonna be some of that that if you believe the stories that are told and the way that they went down, you will still feel that he is very much a victim in this.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Yeah, because even if he was involved, quote unquote. To begin with, yeah, like it's manipulation, surely anyway, because no one would willingly be like, Yeah, I'll put that. And even if he was double crossed, he was probably fed some fucking web of lies that was like, you do this, you can go.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yeah? Right. So what they do next is they see that, and then obviously for the police, they're like awfully calm, blah blah blah. So then what they do is they're like, Well, we're gonna put together a timeline of the events. What happens is call comes into the pizza shop at about 1.30. So sorry, yeah, it's a little bit late at the midday, maybe like 2, 3 pm when this is all like kicking off, ordering two pepperoni pizzas to what turned out to be a remote radio tower. Okay. So that was what he's delivered. He's delivering it to this radio tower. They called them two pies. Two pepperoni pies. And then, yeah, they track the call back to a location not far from the delivery site.

unknown 32:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

So the call that came in for the pizzas came from a payphone, like near a near a gas station. Yeah. They get to the site, which is the abandoned radio tower, and they find tire marks and shoe impressions that indicate that Brian Wells was at this site.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

And then what they also find when they're there are scuff marks that indicate a potential struggle.

unknown 32:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Someone's white. So they see tire marks, they see his footprints, and then they see scuff marks, and it's okay, that does indicate that he was maybe put on him by force. Did they find the pizzas? No.

unknown 32:44

Again.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Not that I know. Sorry, I'm not gonna answer that question either. No, this is Joanny. It's all over again. Um Hyde, his sister, in her earlier statement, also highlights the failures of police. So they didn't bring an ambulance to the scene even when before the bomb went off. They're not calling emergency services to be on scene if the bomb goes off to try and help her brother. They made no attempts to save his life at all. And the fact that the police actually took more steps to preserve the neck bomb than they did to take any care for Brian. Yeah, yeah. So they took no precautions to try and preserve his body, and obviously that's something the family gonna bring up because that's fucked.

SPEAKER_04 33:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Yeah. There was a guy on there, I think one of the coroners, who said it was one of the most devastating things that he ever had to do. Like, yeah, to literally decapitating someone to preserve the device. But they decided that piece of evidence was more important to try and solve what had happened.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

And I can understand that part. Yeah. But the fact that, yeah, like you say, there's no ambulance on site or anything, it was like it was never about him, it was always about who's done it. Yeah. And it's just yes, a piece of shrapnel was like in his chest. But who's to say he's lying there till 3 p.m.? Like till 3 a.m. Yeah. Fucking no concern for life.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

No. Yeah. He didn't get the respect he deserved towards the end at all. On Sunday the 31st of August, so when did I say three days later? Three days later, because it was the 28th, wasn't it? Yeah. So Sunday the 31st of August, something happens that propels this case even further into the realm of weird. One of Brian's colleagues and a friend from the pizza shop, Robert Thomas Pinetti. Yeah, Pinetti. Oh my god. Is found unresponsive in his home. Yeah. It was reported that days after Wells' death, Pennetti had got quite nervous and was asking people for protection because he was worried they would come for him next.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

So he was actually supposed to be interviewed at the pizza shop by police over that weekend, but had asked to change the interview to Monday. Sunday is when his body is found. So he they never actually interviewed him. He'd said, Oh, I'm so sorry I can't make it. Anyway, we can change it to Monday. And then Sunday is when he is found unresponsive in his home. When he's taken for autopsy, it is determined that it was either an accidental overdose from a known drug problem, so they did know in the passy, or a suicide. Yeah. But that is strange timing, regardless. Whether he's taking the drugs and gone too far because he's trying to deal with stuff. Yeah. Or he's decided that's it and he's taking ozone. And he can't talk about whatever he wanted to go and talk about.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

Or someone's made him do that.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

So speculation very quickly begins that Panetti is maybe the one who set up Wells. Oh. So it didn't even cross my mind. I was like, this bees. We're saying Wells, the way we were talking about it now, it very much so it seems like he could still be innocent. And actually, if he is innocent, there's a chance that somebody else set him up to be the one who, you know, who was in the collar. He can very tactically say, Oh, he's gonna be on shift at this time. Yeah. So not his employer, just someone who worked with him. Yeah. Who could have told someone the schedule? Absolutely. And also potentially put him forward as the lackey.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Like, which also can still make him a victim because at the end of the day, he could be threatened as well. And he could say, Look, there's this guy, Brian, he loves the scavenger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

And also maybe they pinpointed him and then they went, then they approached Panetti. Yeah, yeah. You don't know. From the address book of sex workers that was found at Wells' home, they determine that one of the sex workers has a boyfriend who is black and actually has some experience working with explosives. Since this would fit Brian Wells' story, this becomes an avenue that they decide to explore. But they very quickly determine that this man has nothing to do with it and there's no evidence to tie him to this. So it's an absolute dead end. Yeah. And obviously, right now, other than what Brian Wells says about black men putting it around him, there's no reason to believe that the perpetrators are black other than what he said. Yeah, exactly. But I do understand them going through that avenue to be like this is the only shred of information. Black man who whose girlfriend was in this book, he has experience or explosives. And if that's the only profiling you have of any person in this book, you've got to find leads and you've got to chase them, haven't you? So I just am proud of the fact that they were like, There's no evidence here, we'll not let that go. So they did instead of them being like, must be you. Yeah, feels like they absolutely left it alone. That was it, no evidence. They spoke to him, yeah, decided that no, that's just not it.

SPEAKER_04 37:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

So they go back to the weapons themselves. They determine that both the bomb and the cane gun are made from metal and wood. So therefore, this person must be skilled with those materials to have made those two things. They determine the cane gun was actually loaded and would have fired.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

Fucking you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

So it was usable at the bottom. So I don't know, it looks like I'm picturing like it's like a shotgun and the handle it has the yeah, so put in evil genius cane gun. But like basically, it looks like there's a cane and then there's a gun, like maybe in the cane that you can take out and fire.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Yes, that's like this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Oh no, it's the hole gun.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Yeah, because that's the hole that's the bit that shoots.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

And it would shoot, it actually works.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

God, that's so scary as well, because I'm not being funny. If I was just walking with a cane, which I never do, but and there's a leave there's a trigger right there.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

I'd be pulling that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

How are you not?

SPEAKER_03 38:47

That's why you got the fucking lollipop. Yeah. Because he's holding this and he's I'm gonna freaking out the trigger in a minute because I need to do something with my hands.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

So it also is determined that obviously because it's loaded and it would have fired, that this person really knows munitions and how to build their own.

SPEAKER_04 39:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

So that is something that they release to the public saying that this person has probably shown off devices that they've made themselves before. Someone who knows how to make guns and bombs.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

This is a serious handyman.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Yeah, really. Three weeks after Brian Well's death, a phone call comes into police. It's in the man on the line saying there is a frozen body in a garage at a woman's house at 8645 Peach Street. The operator says, How do you know this, sir? She literally says that. And then he goes, and the man says, Because I live there. And then his name is Bill Rosty. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 39:44

I remember.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Um, he says, the person that lives there is called Marjorie Deal Armstrong, and she lived, and this address is really close to where the pizza was delivered. Yeah. So where Brian Wells would have been accosted and the neck bomb would have been attached to him. So they are like, fine, we're going. So they go and this person rings again. Like Bill Rothstein rings again. I don't think they go immediately. He rings again and says, Have you been up to our place? Oh my god, get that. Anyway, so eventually they go and search the house and it they find a body in this freezer. Yes. Marjorie claims that Bill Rothstein is the one who killed the person in the freezer and that she had nothing to do with it.

unknown 40:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

But she did know that the body was there.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

I feel like that's compulsory.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Accessory. At least. And it becomes apparent really quickly when they start speaking to her that she is suffering from some serious mental health issues. Yeah. So when they enter her home, she is a hoarder. Yeah. And severe hoarder, like feces, dead animals, piles of stuff that have been there for years in her home and a garage. And I don't totally understand. I think I wrote somewhere that she lived with Bill. I don't really understand how their properties are joined, but they live or are living near or right next to each other or in the same place. I don't get it. It seems random as well that Bill wouldn't just take it to a place that he didn't live. Do you know what I mean? Like the fact that he actually lives in there as well. And she's It was him. Yeah. Obviously. So James Roden is actually the victim that is found in the freezer. And he is Marjorie's boyfriend of ten and a half years.

SPEAKER_04 41:28

Rick.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Bill claims that Marjorie has said that she killed her boyfriend and asked for help getting rid of the body. He said that they had been friends for 35 years, so he had decided to help her and moved the body into the freezer. But that weekend she had decided that she wanted to put the frozen body through a wood chipper, and that had been the catalyst for him calling the police.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

Good fucking god. Yeah. Have you used a wood chipper?

SPEAKER_00 41:59

No. Bye. Fuck me. Yeah. Fuck me, bro. They said it took four days to thaw his body. They said, imagine a frozen turkey. The size of a human.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

I have to say something as well, which is really fucked up.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

But like whenever I've used a wood chipper, people around when you're using a wood chipper will come over because the of the instant smell of fresh wood chippings. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Can you fucking imagine? I can't. No. I literally can't. Yeah. I mean what would that even smell like? It would do the fucking job though. Yeah. And that that's why he says that he was like, I can't do this.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Where are they pointing that nozzle? Where are they doing that? I don't know. Where are they getting a wood chipper from? She hoarding that.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

I don't know. I didn't put it in this story as well, but that later on they're talking about like why he's got a list. Bill Rostine has a list of things that he needs to get together to help her dispose of the body. And they talked about a wood chipper, but then he was also looking into buying a meat grinder. Oh my god. Yeah. To dispose of the body. At least that's technically what you're doing. Yeah, and he said, I was just I just wrote the list and was like looking at wood grinders wood grinders, meat grinders to try and store her. Imagine if you rented I don't, I literally haven't known.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

No, but can I just rent you wood chipper for the weekend?

SPEAKER_03 43:25

I'll just bring it back.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

I just don't understand.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

So, to be fair, if she's got like dead animals and she's hoarding I feel like some body parts in the garden is maybe not that big a deal.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

I just can't they're not even wearing the right PPE. Fucking help. When they finally, after four days, thaw James's body, they determine that he has been shot with a shotgun. I couldn't find where he was shot with a shotgun, but they did put some photos in that. Really did make it like he was shot in the face. Oh fucking hell. Because it didn't look like that his lower jaw and the like the front of his face was there.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

And he's just put full body in a freezer.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

Fo fetal position.

unknown 44:13

Oh yeah, fuck.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

In the freezer. Four days to thaw his body out properly so they could get it out of the freezer. Absolutely. Fucking they literally said there was like ice attached to the freezer that was keep keeping him in there. Yeah, horrifying. Yeah, absolutely horrifying. Bill was described as extremely intelligent, but had no real follow-through. So really smart, wanted to be the smartest guy in the room all the time, but was terrible at never finished college and never had held down very serious relationships.

SPEAKER_03 44:49

I can talk about this now because we won't be able to Wednesday, but I'm going to a murder mystery tomorrow. Yes. And my character is salvage. It is literally something like I'm going to literally read the exact thing, but it reminds me of that.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

But I just body in the freezer. Oh sorry, the smartest guy in the room. It's giving body in the freezer.

SPEAKER_03 45:12

I'm not even smartest guy in the room as well, actually, maybe not. Or just thinks you are. Yeah, it's I'm gonna have to act like such a dick. Former starship commander, full of himself, not as brave as he pretends. I'm gonna have to be peacocking to the fucking mat the second shit goes down, I'm gonna have to be cowering behind people who are pretending I was the first one.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Do you know who you need to be like? Is the guy from Harry Potter that's gonna go in the chamber of sea?

SPEAKER_03 45:37

For real. Although fuck Harry Potter. Yeah. But fuck her. It's exactly how I need to be. I need to be like the most obnoxious version of myself. Yeah. Basically one foot on the sofa the whole time, just like manspreading.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Yeah, manspreading all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

And like then I need to, like, the second something goes on, be like, I'm just gonna stay back here and just wait by the ship.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Sorry guys, don't worry, I'll ward off anyone.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

I'll man the ship just in case anyone comes.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

The last time I was on the front line, this is exactly what was going on.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

And if something starts going down, put something up put someone in front of you, like a human shield.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

And Lauren is like a version of the Lena, and it's like damsel in distress, but will shoot on site. So I'm so hyped to be able to be like damsel in distress, she's always a damsel in distress, and the second shit goes down, she's like in it behind her, and she's gonna be like I'm very excited. But that is what it's giving, know it all, but actually, like when it comes down to they're just not really following through with anything. So in the 17th which is why he's called in. Yeah, because he's been like thought of the fact that maybe that will come back on him.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Marjorie and Bill are like they're like the most toxic pairing, it's absolutely insane. They are two people that should absolutely never have met. Yeah, and I I'm not saying that they wouldn't have done it because Marjorie's got quite the fucking past, but yeah, they're just it's fucked. It's fucked from the get-go. Yeah in the 70s, Bill meets Marjorie and he becomes infatuated with her. They did date for some time, but the relationship was described as extremely unhealthy, and there was a lot of on and off again. I think I'll write about that later though. Marjorie is described as magnetic, intelligent, and beautiful when she was younger. She even said about herself that she was the prettiest girl on the black. Men were rumoured to do anything for her, but she was also described as extremely intense.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

Yeah, like a drop.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

She knew she was beautiful, she knew she was intelligent, and also she was fucking, yeah, she was a live wire. Yeah. So yeah, the two were described as on and off again. They were even engaged for a while, but Marjorie had eventually called it off. She mentions many reasons later on in the doc as well. Rothstein uh appears to have never moved on from this relationship, never getting married, and then letting Marjorie live with him with him. I'm not really sure. Yeah, whatever it is. So Marjorie over the years had spoken to many therapists and had gathered quite a few diagnoses. So some people said that she was bipolar, some diagnosed her with BPD, and some just said that she was a narcissist, and that was the root of her depression, but she was a manic depressive. Yeah. So trying to build a picture of what had happened, police bring in a friend of Marjorie's, 49-year-old Kenneth Barnes. He had known Marjorie for about nine years and they would just fish together. Barnes' girlfriend was also brought in, 74-year-old Agnes Owen. And when she was interviewed, she mentioned that when she met Marjorie and Jim, she had this feeling that Jim was really nice but really timid, and that Marjorie really lauded over him. She said Marjorie wanted to get rid of Jim and that she had told herself and Barnes plenty of times that she was done with him. Barnes, so Kenneth Barnes, said that the couple fought all the time, and that Marjorie would even sometimes say in front of people that she was gonna kill Jim. Okay. Barnes and Owen said Marjorie once mentioned to them that she had been to prison in passing. And I fuck with this so heavily. The couple were like, love that, want to know more about that. Yeah. Well, we ask her, no, we won't. We're gonna go to the library and find out why she went to prison. Love it. So what they found out is in 1984, Marjorie had actually been to prison because she had killed her boyfriend Thomas while he was asleep on the couch. And she know what she did? She fucking shot him. Oh my god. Yeah. She shot him while he was asleep on the couch and then claimed self-defense. Marjorie's defence managed to convince a jury that she was a battered woman and had feared for her life, and she served next to no time.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

Yeah, because she's this beautiful damsel in distress-esque.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

He was like fucking got it on lock, mate. Also, quite interestingly, not long before the bankheist, the house that Bill was living in, rent-free because he'd inherited it from his parents and he was the executor of their estate, he had actually put it on the market for $250,000. He had told his siblings that he'd only listed it for about $90,000. And the real estate agent that was helping him put this listing on had said, like £250,000 is too high for this house. And he said, No, I want £250,000.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

And he's like, I'm gonna do whatever I can to get it.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

So obviously, at the same time this is all happening, the police are like making some connections with the Wells case and being like, they were already, I think, from the day that they got the phone call, they were like, We think this is connected. This shit doesn't happen all every day around this town. Like, this is fucking weird.

SPEAKER_02 51:03

Body in the freezer, body being blown up, £250,000.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

So they are pretty fucking on it. They're literally like, We think these two things are connected. And before they even find about the £250,000 and whatever, the pet so Rothstein and Marjorie's relationship becomes really tit for tat, blaming each other for the murder, why it was done. But eventually, Marjorie also reveals to police that Rothstein actually had a roommate called Floyd J. Stockton. And he had actually fled town days after the Wells robbery, like maybe even the day after the Wells robbery, saying that there was too much heat and he had to get out. And do you know why? Because Floyd J. Stockton was actually on the run. And Rothstein knew this and was harbouring a criminal. Do you want to know why he was on the run? Bomb? No. For raping a teenage disabled girl in another state. Fuck me. Yeah. And Rothstein knew this. I know, there's so many crimes, it's absolutely insane. And so many people. Sorry, because I'm just throwing fucking shit at you.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

I'm doing my best. I'm keeping up.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

When searching Rothstein's house, they actually find a suicide note that Rothstein has written himself. For himself. Yeah, because he was gonna take his own life, and he says this to police when he's in the interview room. I was either gonna take my own life or I was gonna tell you the truth about what she'd done. That's what he says. So he writes this suicide note, and I think he does make an attempt in his life, but very unsuccessful attempt. Did he try and drown himself in the toilet? Oh my god, like fucking Levi Belfield. Is that who it was? Yeah. Yeah. So he tries to take his own life before he calls 911, but eventually he speaks to them. So when they find this note, the note is broken down into bullet points. And the very first note, like bullet point, like it's one, two, three. Number one says this has nothing to do with the Wells case. I just feel like sometimes you're just a criminal who just walks right into jail. No one they were connecting it, but they had nothing from you guys actually directly connected to the Wells until they found your suicide note. And you said, No. I'm telling you about the murder that she committed. Nothing to do with the Wells. And like, why are you even telling the police anything to do with that anyway?

SPEAKER_03 53:32

Well, because she was going to use the wood chipper and that was a bit too much for you. She would have used the woodchipper, they would have found her using the wood chipper, and they would have been like, That's your boyfriend. Yeah. You've killed him, clearly. She would have said, It's Brian. They would have said I don't mean Brian. Bill. Bill, it's Bill.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

But they also would have said Bill turned you in.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

Yeah, they would have said, shut the f- No, but even before this, they would have-if he hadn't have called in, they would have found out she was using a woodchipper to dispose of a wood.

SPEAKER_03 53:58

Probably. Because there's no way that's like you're just leaving scraps of flesh on the ground and no one's working out there. No one's figuring out what that is. Yeah. Then you're saying, Who's that? Your boyfriend. She's saying, it's Bill. They're saying, Who the fuck's Bill? Fuck off. That's obviously you. You're wood chipping him up.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

She goes to prison, your problem's solved. Why are you ringing? And they would have looked at the fact that she'd already been to prison because she fucking shot her ex in the face while he was sleeping. I say face, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 54:23

But this DNA of him being in her freezer in her house, it's not got nothing to do with Bill. Nothing to do with Bill. I just wanted to report a crime. Yeah. It's nothing to do with me, and it's nothing to do with the.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

Maybe he acknowledged that the fact that she was like, we're gonna fucking meat grind or wood chip him up, and she he was like, We're gonna get caught for that. And he was like, and I moved the body to the freezer, so I'm not letting this bitch take me down. Yeah, he says, I guess I'll pretend to commit something. Yes. And also the one thing to note is that she is extremely unwell. Like, she is not in a good mental space. If he did, and also what she doesn't acknowledge is the fact that she did know that he killed if Bill was the one who killed James Rodent, her boyfriend, she knew that he killed him, and she wasn't the one who turned him in. So you have to try and explain that, but again, not very mentally well.

SPEAKER_02 55:13

Yeah, and I guess if she's just don't worry, Queen, we'll chuck him in the freezer. Yeah, you killed him, but I wanted him dead. Maybe I'll wood chip him and he's Fuck. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:21

I forgot that she might not be fully here with the vibes and how we're gonna and also maybe his she's not very well, she's fucking loose-lipped.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

And also, maybe he was like, She's a whoredess. Maybe if I just leave him in the freezer, she'll just keep him there. And she's Are we gonna dispose of him?

SPEAKER_00 55:36

And would anyone even know shit? I was banking on the fact that she'd just keep him for the rest of her life. So January 2004, pre-limb hearing for James Roden case starts, and basically the way it ends is Marjorie was ordered to go to trial for his murder. And Rothstein actually cuts a really good deal and basically only gets misdemeanor charges and doesn't spend very long in prison at all. Okay. For helping, I think, gross misuse of a corpse, is what it's called.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

And if he just hadn't have written number one, this is nothing to do with Pizza Bomber.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

Also, at this point, we're not talking, they're not even talking about it. If he just not wrote that, yeah, we're not talking about it. He would have just got away with it then. But they are looking at you thinking like, what the fuck is going on? That's a bit weird. After this rule ruling, she makes a statement to the press. She's being dragged away and she's making it as she goes. And the thing she said is Rostine should be arrested for the murder of Brian Wells.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

Fucking hell.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

And then everyone's what the fuck if I'm going down. Yeah. So I didn't put this in my notes, but actually, I might talk about it. This is so much longer than I thought. I've got so much to go. No, I haven't actually, it's not as bad as I thought. So there's this reporter who's becomes this journalist who becomes really interested in this case. And it's at the beginning, after she's gone to prison basically for James Roden, and she she's going to trial for James Roden, and Bill Rothstein's been cut this deal, and she says this thing about Brian Wells. He decides he's gonna drive to Erie, Pennsylvania, and he wants to try and talk to Rothstein. Yeah. He goes to Rothstein's house and he's recording outside his house, and Rothstein basically says, fuck off, that's the end of it. That's it. Yeah. But in this recording, in his driveway, is a blue minivan. Oh Jesus. He shows this journalist shows the blue minivan to the police officer who saw it on the day, and he says, without a fucking doubt, that's the van that was there.

SPEAKER_03 57:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Yeah. So that's something that happens, but I didn't really talk about it, but I was like, I'm just gonna.

SPEAKER_02 57:38

What is wrong with people? Yeah. Why are they so bad at crying?

SPEAKER_00 57:43

She's she goes to prison. She is I think I talk about no, I do, a little bit later. I talk about how she's sentenced. But after this, when she's going on trial, Bill Rothstein dies of terminal cancer in July 2004. What the flip is going on? And a few months after he dies, a huge turn happens. Marjorie admits to cellmates that she has killed James Roden. And she says at first, she's saying lots of things to people, she says, it's over a fight about another woman. So she is now freely admitting she is the one who killed him. But she's not really acknowledging that and that she was trying to blame him the whole time. She just eventually says, I killed him. I did it. That wasn't fair.

SPEAKER_03 58:31

She's probably like, I'll try my luck. And then it didn't work. And she was like, look, I'm not letting a man take credit for that shit.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

And these fucking the jailhouse snitches, as they're called, basically says she. Marjorie is a master manipulator. She says she acts crazy in front of the guards, but she's completely different in front of inmates, and she knows exactly what she's doing.

SPEAKER_04 58:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

And that's what everyone says about her. She's so intelligent and she's so manipulative, and you never really know what side. And she she's very good at putting this face up to people that she's crazy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:03

And also, if you have bipolar, but also you are calculated and you are manipulative and you are intelligent. It's like a combination of you are chaotic and no one knows what you're gonna do, but you're also not afraid to do it to get what you want. What you would like, yeah. You're not afraid to literally be the most intense version of yourself in every manner to get what you want from the right people and to create a web of lies that that benefit you, and then she's probably in prison, and she says, You know what? I'm just gonna say it was me. Yeah. Because then people will fear me and I'm not getting out. So here we go. Regardless, here's this version of me. And then in front of the guards, yeah, still act like you're all over the place, and people like this this queen, she's like all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

What she does is she does a very good job of putting that front up to the guards. So what ends up happening is when she's finally admitted it in prison, she changes her appeal and says, I wasn't in my right mind when I killed James Roden. Yeah. And you've seen my diagnoses, and they watch the way that I am in prison. Obviously, I wasn't very well. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:13

So I just need some help and I need to get it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

She gets herself moved to a psychiatric facility, so they're buying this. Yeah, and they basically say to her, if you on good behaviour, you'll be out in seven years. I'd just like to say, at this point, she is known to have killed two people. Yeah. For a fact. And they're being like, if we get you some meds and maybe some therapy, even though she's had multiple therapists. For a fact, she has murdered two men. One she says in self-defense, and the other one she says not in her right mind, but she's murdered two men.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

The finding out of the second one was because of some jealous ex-lover that was terrified that she was gonna chop him up to death and it was gonna all go wrong.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:53

So she didn't even say, I've come out of a bipolar episode, or I've come out of something, or I'm like panicking and I don't know what's going on, I don't know who I was, and I wasn't in the right mind. She's saying, No, I'm taking this to the grave.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:05

And someone else has called her out.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

Yeah. And she's now still being putting fucking dirt on Rothstein's name when she quite clearly tried to be like, No, he did it. Yeah, fucking wow. So she this once she gets the seven years basically, she this is when she starts talking to police, trying to negotiate deals. Yeah, saying I know. To be moved to so she's not in Erie, Pennsylvania at the moment. She wants to be moved back to Erie. Yeah. So she wants to be moved to a facility in Erie, and to do that, she says, I'm gonna talk about the Pizza Bomber case.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:37

And fucking bro is dead. She can say anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

But because she started talking to people, and she writes a to whom it may concern letter to the police in Erie, and she's I've got some information about the pizza bomber, they're like, you know what we're gonna do? We're gonna we've kept everything from her house in storage. So we're gonna look through every piece of everything she has, which I'm guessing hadn't happened. If she's someone that hoards things, you would keep keepsakes because people keep keepsakes that aren't hoarders. She keeps alone people everything. She keeps feces, like she's gonna keep any bits and bobs.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:14

There's gonna be evidence in someone's house that literally keeps everything. Yeah, you wouldn't be able to help yourself by keeping something incriminating.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:22

Yeah. So they're like, let's go through every scrap that is in there, and it apparently it's like a warehouse full of stuff. So they're like, we're going through everything. And in one of the last boxes they search, which is just fucking sods law, isn't it? They find an angry letter that she has written to PC Bank for letting her father clear out one of her safety deposit boxes. And it is apparently seething.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:52

Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:52

And she is angry and she finds it as a personal attack that on her inheritance that they have done.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:58

How much was it? Letting no idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:00

250k yeah, 250k was it? So she's fucking seething, and they're like, P and C Bank says same bank's robbed. Strange choice because there's loads of highways to major cities and stuff. Yeah, anyway. So they're like, don't know about this. And then in 2005, some new developments arise. So a man comes forward placing Marjorie right near the wells crime scene. She could not give a coherent or realistic answer to why she was there and to what she was doing. Do you know what she was doing? Driving the wrong way up a highway at a man, and she couldn't answer why she was there or where she was going or what she'd been doing, just that she was obviously running an errand and she was driving the wrong way up a highway near where this pizza pommer thing happened.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:51

I feel this will be me one day.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

You can only hope. Oh my lord. Yeah, and then a UPS driver comes forward and says, and both, I'd like to say, both of these men tried to call in these tips to the police really early on. They didn't come out of nowhere. They just, the FBI was involved as well, but I couldn't be asked to be talking about that because it was like a whole hoo-haw. But basically, they hadn't told the FBI about these people. Yeah. They never did.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

It's not like it's a fucking massive bomb attack.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:22

So this UPS driver places Bill Rothstein and Marjorie at the payphone where the pizza was ordered. Like that she just can't be honest. I can't be honest.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:34

And then to in a world where everyone's a fucking busybody. Yeah. And two people just couldn't connect their leads in a really serious terrorist attack in the same area.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:48

Yeah. I just see this. So there's also files called the snitch files that arise, like emerge from the inmates that had been talking to the police about the Roden case. And they're basically saying these police had kept these files in a drawer, just stuffed in a random drawer away from FBI for years, and then eventually handed them over. And they were de one of the jailhouse snitches wrote notes while Marjorie was talking to her, wrote everything down that she said, and in it, she confessed to multiple inmates about the pizza bomber case. Oh my god. So some was about what she did to Rodan, and she said to a lot of them, rather than the story about it being over a woman, that she'd actually killed Rodan because he was supposed to be the getaway driver in the pizza bomber case, and he had decided just before that he didn't want to and he was gonna go to the police.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:45

You're so timid. Yeah. Oh, he's such a timid man. No, he's probably what the fuck am I caught up in? This is too tapped for me. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:54

He's probably just this isn't my life. This is crime. Yeah. I'm gonna get out, and everyone's timid. And then some of the other notes were about how Bill was the one who built the Wells Bomb and Marjorie was the one who fit him for the collar.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:08

Oh my god, imagine some fucking old lady just coming in and being like she took his measurements to make the collar.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:16

Apparently.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

How?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:18

So she thought basically no one could link her to the murder. So she was just like, everyone's lying. Everybody's lied about everything they said. She's just ringing the pizza parlor, like, yeah, so a 10-inch pizza. How would you say that compares to the UPS driver said? So the man that she was driving towards said, She has really significant eyes. Because I don't know if you've seen her, but she's basically got a lazy eye. One of her eyes is not in the same direction as the other. So she does have quite scary and quite prominent eyes. Then the other UPS driver said, I remembered her because she looked me in the eye, and I will never forget those eyes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:00

Oh, and she was young. Yeah, that's now she's up.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:03

No, no, but there are pictures other pictures of her that you're like, actually, she was so pretty. Look at that. Oh my god, she was so pretty, and you can see how people might have found, especially if she was really intelligent, that people might have found her quite magnetic. But her now, well not now, she's dead, but yeah, she's yeah. Yeah, she's so quite cute. So yeah, she was just like basically everyone's lying. And then the investigators are like, we're gonna go back and speak to other people in her life. So in the fall of 2005, they land back on Ken Barnes, who is the one him and his girlfriend went to the library and found about what she did previously. It turns out that Barnes is actually a crack dealer. Oh sure. And that he had a friend in common with Wells who was one of the sex workers in his address book. Yeah, okay. And I think her name was. Yeah, I'm going to the library. Don't worry about why. What? And so this sex worker, her name was like hoopstick or something. Her surname. Hoopstick, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:07

Oh, not like her stage name.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:08

No, no, not her stage name. Hoopstick was her name or something along those lines. But I was like, I'm gonna leave her out because I feel like she's probably had enough shit. Yeah. But I did read something about her just after I finished my notes, and I was like, maybe she wasn't as innocent. I was like, oh so they would go to Barnes' house and have sex, and Wells would pay her there and then, and then the money that Wells had paid her with, the sex worker would then use that money to buy crack from Barnes. So the investigator literally called it a one-stop shop. So they go over to Barnes' house because he was a crack dealer, and Wells would be like, I'm paying this woman for sex. He'd they'd have sex in Barnes' house, pay the woman, and then the woman would just give the money straight to Barnes to buy crack.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:47

So if you go around, have a shag, you'll get some crack. Basically, so yeah, and the police are like, very interesting. We didn't know this about Barnes. Let's talk to him a little bit more, shall we? Yeah. And he eventually starts to yap.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:01

And he says, Marjorie was the mastermind behind this robbery. And basically, he says that she wanted to rob the bank because she wanted to get money to pay Barnes to kill her dad. What the flip? Who she felt was giving her way her inheritance.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:20

So she was like, Oh, you wanna take out all the money from my safety deposit box? Yeah. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna rob the same bank.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:28

Yeah. Because she's mad at them.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:30

I'm gonna make this elaborate king.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:32

And then I'm gonna use some of that money to pay you to kill my dad so I can get my inheritance.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

So elaborate, isn't it? And also, the thing is like they've interviewed her dad in it, and it's so upsetting. He's literally the cutest man, and then they're literally like, How do you feel that this might have all happened because she wanted to kill you?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:49

I might have emptied your dad's safety deposit box, but it's because she kept killing people.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:52

Well, he was like, he literally breaks down and he's like, She just she didn't know how to love, she only knew how to take. Good god. Yeah, and he's literally so upset, and he lost her mum in like 2000 or something, and her mum just wanted the best for her, and they both wanted the best for her, and they she couldn't work, she couldn't keep down a job because of her mental illness. They gave her two houses and a classic car and stuff, and she just never looked after any of it, and she just kept coming back and wanting more and more. Yeah, and you know why though she felt like he was giving away her inheritance? Because he said he'd amassed a fortune of up to a million pounds, right? This man from working, and he was like, I don't need it, so he would give it away to friends and neighbours. Oh my god, I love him. Yeah, he was like, I don't need it, and other people need help. How selfish as well for her to be like, but what about me?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:47

So that's what Barnes says is the moment just not knowing what to do because you give her the world and she can't cope. So you're like, Maybe I should try and let her walk on her own two feet and see if that helps her in this world.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:59

And then she's I'm gonna plan to kill you. Yeah, die.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:03

Because you're a good man and you won't give me money. Yeah. And she keeps saying things like, I'm an intelligent woman, I'm not a thief, I don't need to rob a bank. And you're like, Does that mean that you don't need to rob a bank?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:14

Yeah, and also, didn't you try and rob a bank?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

Yeah, also you didn't need to murder two of your partners, but you did that too.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:20

Yeah. And then you wanted to murder your dad, but I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:23

And you want us to believe that everyone else that's saying that you did this is a liar. Yes, honestly. So the 9th of December 2005, Barnes admits that he was in on the robbery scheme and Marjorie was absolutely the mastermind. He also said that he, Marjorie, and Rothstein watched from across the road when the bomb went off. They were right there. And then he throws a shocking revelation to the police, and he says, Stockton, so the one that raped the young girl, Pennetti, the one who took his own life, and Wells were all in on it, and James Roden was supposed to be the getaway driver. And the day that they arrived, they said to carry out this plot, they said Barnes said to Marjorie, Where's Roden? Yeah. And she said, Oh, he's not very well, he's upstairs sick, but he was already dead in the freezer.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:21

Oh my goodness. So he said, No, not doing it. She killed him. She killed him.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:25

Then she says to Bill, you have to go and drive the minivan.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

Yeah, so basically, what they I'll talk about a little bit. I don't think I would write the notes, but we're so nearly near the end, and then I I will talk about what the police were saying they think happened on the day. Because she's saying, Oh, he's upstairs sick, so he can't be the getaway driver. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:44

Maybe Bill is I've got a fucking shoot off now then.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:47

Yes. Say, go and watch. So he was never supposed to be there in his minivan, but then obviously Rodin's gone, and Bill knows that he's dead. Then Sherie knows that he's dead, but nobody else knows that Rodin's dead.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:57

So And that's why Matey Boy that worked at the I can't remember his name because there's too many names. Kenneth to say it. Yeah. He that's why he's freaking out because I am involved. Rodin's missing, I'm involved, and they killed Well, someone's missing. Everyone that's involved just seems to be dying, I'm obviously gonna be next. And whether he did it to himself on purpose or from accident, he did not know that that was gonna be the outcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:24

He was like, I'm scared to death. So he says that they meet up and they brought out the neck collar bomb, and Wells panics, and that's when he tries to run and says, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this. Yeah, he's I'm out, I actually am not comfortable doing this, I don't want to do it. Yeah, they said that the men told him to stop being a pussy and then held him while Stockton, the one that was on the run, put the collar on him, and then Marjorie says to him, If anyone asks, just say it's a group of black guys who did it to you. Of course. So he said only Marjorie and Rothstein knew the bomb was real. The rest of them thought that this was fake, that they were robbing a bank and this is how they were gonna do it, making look like the victim.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:12

Which is why, even if Brian was involved in the first place, he was freaking out and he was like, It's gonna be fine. And the second that goes off is him potentially being like, It's not real, they told me it wasn't real, but what if this is real?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:27

Yeah, which is why he's not in a complete panic because he might have known that it was coming.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:32

But yeah, and also that could be complete bullshit, and he genuinely had no idea because they could have just said that to be like it could be a really uh easy story for Barnes to not get in as as much trouble. Yeah, I don't know why, but yeah, but they could just be because he's dead. The same as Marjorie being the mastermind, though, could also be a great story to look like big things. Anyway, so basically, Stockton is already in prison at this point, so they use Barnes's confession to put pressure on Stockton to tell them about what happened, and somehow Stockton gets a complete immunity deal if he testifies against Marjorie. No charges brought to him for what happened. Yeah, no, he's not on the run, he's in prison again at this point. He's that's how they go and speak to him. Yeah, okay, but they're saying he's saying you had time, no added time for what you did to do with the Wells case. Yeah. And Stockton says he helped Bill build part of the neck collar, but then Bill said he wasn't doing it right, so just took it off him. So like and was a proper bomb.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:37

Fuck me.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:38

They also I don't I think I must have missed it somewhere, but that I in the bomb, when they looked at the collar, it was like fairly sophisticated, but as I said, it was just basically two pipe bombs and uh and two timers. But someone had built in loads of red herrings, like a cell phone that didn't couldn't actually set off the bomb, yeah, or like instructions that were written down the side, like rambling instructions like the notes that were used to confuse the anyone deactivating the bomb.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:08

And then basically there was like at that point the cell phone will go off, and then you maybe get to Mackey's and then it doesn't, and you maybe fill in a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:15

Basically, there was a collar with four locks, but only two of them are actually keeping the thing to his neck, and he just needed the two keys to unlock that and then be done with the bigger. But it would just confuse anyone that tried to get involved kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:28

So even if the bomb squad had showed up, they would have had to have deciphered all of that stuff and what was active and what was inactive before they got to that part anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:35

So they were always planning to Marjorie and Bill were always planning to kill him, to kill Wells. Yeah, that was always a part of the deal, but only for them. Everyone else involved did not know that he was supposed to die. And all of this plot just appeared from them using sex workers and her buying cracks. So basically, what I oh yeah, I'm almost at the end, so it's fine. What I read afterwards was this sex worker in 2018 admitted that she was used to set up Wells. That basically Barnes had asked her if there was anyone that she felt was like gullible enough to go along with this plot, and she was the one who put forward Wells as the Patsy. Just can't stop talking about fucking scavenger hunt. No doubt. There is every chance that he was just a completely innocent victim, nothing to do with it. There is also a chance that he was to do with it at first, but very quickly wanted to back out. He was manipulated. For certain he was manipulated. And whether she pinpointed him as the Patsy in terms of call this pizza place, Pennetti helps you set him up and make sure that he's the one that does the delivery.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:44

Because he'll be scared, but he'll also have the board or something. Or the fact that it was like, Do you want to do this thing? You might have to have a fake bomb strapped to you, but it'll be fake, and all you have to do is just follow the rules.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:56

So Stockton wasn't sure whether it was Marjorie or Bill who was the absolute masterline, and also wasn't sure who built the gun and the bomb. Who's building where's the who's the either one of them, but no one was certain who did it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:09

I'm saying it's a highly skilled person, but neither of them have any of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:13

Not certain who wrote the notes. Yeah. Yeah. They don't know who did any of that stuff. You can't trust anything she says. Yeah. Neither of them really knew what Pinetti's involvement was either. So they say that Pinetti was at the meetup when they put the collar on him, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:35

Yeah. But he was, or that he was at the meetup the day before when James Roden wasn't there when they talked about the plan. They he was definitely involved, but they didn't really understand what his involvement was. But if Marjorie and Bill weren't telling people who built the gun, who did the notes, and who built the bomb, then they probably also weren't really divulging what Panetti's part was. Maybe his only part was to make sure that Wells was the one who took the call and did the pizza delivery. Yeah. Maybe that was it.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:03

And if he was a drug addict and Barnes was a dealer, that would have been how they had that connection.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:08

Yeah, it could have just been like, look, he's about to do something.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:11

You need to make sure that he's on shift at this time and he's the one that does that delivery, otherwise, your life's in danger.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:17

And then, next thing you know, Brian's been blown up. Yeah. And he's my life's in danger regardless.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:22

So on September 3rd, at some point, Kenneth Barnes pleads guilty and testifies against Marjorie. Yeah. And then Marjorie Deal Armstrong was convicted on the 1st of November 2010 and sentenced to life in prison. It actually took this long for her to be sentenced because she was declared mentally incompetent to stand trial in 2008.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:46

Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:46

And underwent treatment until early 2009. And then in March 2010, it was determined that she was competent to stand trial. Marjorie dies in prison after a battle with breast cancer in 2017. While the conspiracy was proven, debate continues about Wells' level of involvement. Those responsible were somewhat held accountable, but it will never be truly understood. Whether Bri Brian Wells was the exact happenings of that whole night will never be. Also, one last thing to note: Marjorie Dill Armstrong had so much more death from men in her life than even was put out in this. So she only ever had one husband and he died falling and hitting his head on a table. Another previous boyfriend hung himself just after she left. So lots and lots of death around her and in her life.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:41

Which means also she's potentially not opposed to staging a suicide. Yep. If someone else has came to have overdosed, whether they were a drug addict or not, she can very easily potentially make things look like it wasn't her.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:56

It wasn't her. Too much death in your life for it to be a coincidence, I feel. Yeah, too much accidental. Anyway, that is the pizza bomber. Yes! Fucking insane. I said to Amy earlier, I literally had to I had to wrap it the fuck up. Yeah. Because it just kept going. There was more and more. The stuff that I've left out. Yeah. That it's just so much stuff happening in this dock. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:16

Absolutely insane. I remember watching it so long ago. I don't remember any of the side parts. That was I'm so glad we did that because that is such an interesting case.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:23

Yeah, it's so fucked.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:25

So weird.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:26

But it feels like also it shouldn't just be some random hoarder lady that likes killing men. It felt like it was a professional hit. Yeah. It was the start of a series of terrorist attacks, whereas actually it was just because some diva didn't Daddy, buy me North Korea.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:41

It just doesn't. It's absolutely mind-boggling that her and Bill Rothstein got together and just decided that they were gonna just blow someone up, do this with their intellect. What the fuck? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:53

Do you think they were just trying to outsmart each other?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:55

She was trying to be like, I would know how to host host do a bank quest. And then he's I know how to make a bomb.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:02

She was like, I know how to make a gun that looks like a cane. And glorifying contest.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:06

I know how to start a scavenger hunt and then it'll strap around someone's neck and then I know how to put a phone in it.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:10

She's been like, I know how to kill my gun.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:12

Really interestingly, one of the FBI guys in the documentary says that when he's in the room with Bill Rothstein, one of the first things Rothstein says to him is, I just need you to know that I'm the smartest guy in the room. And then he says, It's just me and you in the room, Bill.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:27

Yeah, ew. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:28

That's such a good combo.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:30

Yeah. Yeah, okay. Tell me it.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:31

Do you know what I mean? What in the absolute pissing contest is that? Like fuck off.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:35

Anyway, that's the big fuckery of this week. Loved it. Loved it. We gotta go because it's almost 10 and we've got to do another one. So we're gonna call it a night. Thank you very much. Follow us on Instagram at KillThe Mood Pod and email us at killthemodcast at gmail.com. Love you. Love you.