It's Only Rock n Roll with hosts Phil Blizzard & Russell Mason
"It's Only Rock and Roll" goes beyond the spotlight to reveal the fascinating stories of the unsung heroes who made rock's greatest moments possible. From groundbreaking concerts like Pink Floyd in Moscow during Glasnost to Wham performing at the Great Wall of China, this podcast captures a special time in music history through authentic, unfiltered conversations.
Co-hosts Russell Mason and Phil Blizzard bring complementary perspectives – Russell from his years touring and promoting, Phil from interviewing countless music legends throughout his broadcasting career. Together, they're creating a relaxed, nostalgic journey through an industry populated by unforgettable characters (many known only by their colorful nicknames).
Future episodes will feature tour managers, production crews, artist managers, record producers, and the legendary "liggers" (backstage gate-crashers) who defined an era. These are the people who witnessed it all – the near-disasters averted, the bizarre requests fulfilled, and the moments of brilliance that audiences never saw.
It's Only Rock n Roll with hosts Phil Blizzard & Russell Mason
From Bay City Rollers to Bowie: A Backstage Journey Through Rock History
Step backstage with Phil Blizzard & Russell Mason in this the debut episode of It's Only Rock n Roll into the chaotic, exhilarating world of rock and roll touring. Special guests are industry veterans Jake Duncan and Steve Martin and together they pull back the curtain on nearly a century of combined experience managing tours for some of music's biggest legends.
From accidental beginnings to career-defining moments, these production wizards recount their journeys with refreshing honesty. Jake stumbled into the industry in 1972 after spontaneously offering to help the Bay City Rollers' crew, while Steve's passion for Nine Below Zero led him from devoted fan to trusted crew member. Both admit to "bluffing it" early on – learning technical skills through necessity rather than training, with Steve confessing to being "the worst guitar tech in the world" despite working with extraordinary musicians.
The conversation takes us through pivotal moments in rock history, including exclusive behind-the-scenes accounts of Live Aid in 1985. Steve provides a unique dual perspective, having worked both for Nick Kershaw and promoter Harvey Goldsmith during the iconic event. Their insights reveal how Queen strategically stole the show with their legendary performance, while Paul McCartney faced technical difficulties despite being the artist everyone backstage was most excited to see.
Perhaps most fascinating are their candid revelations about working with mercurial personalities. From Shirley Bassey's dressing room color requirements to Elton John's dramatic pre-show tantrums, these stories humanize the stars while highlighting the diplomatic skills required in tour management. One particularly amusing anecdote involves David Bowie being turned away from Japan's final UK show because the doorman didn't recognize him!
Whether you're a music industry professional, an aspiring tour manager, or simply a fan curious about what happens behind the scenes, this episode offers invaluable insight into the machinery that powers the magic of live music. Subscribe now and join us for more unfiltered conversations with the unsung heroes who've kept the show on the road for decades.
It's Only Rock and Roll is a Phil Blizzard Radio Production - for your production email philblizzardmedia@gmail.com
Well, welcome to the very first episode of It's Only Rock and Roll. We love it, don't we, Russ? Russ's mastermind behind this and co-producers. So lined up for this very first episode. There was a preview, of course, but for this episode, two legendary uh guys from the world of production when it comes to a rock and roll. These guys have worked with everyone style-wise from A to Z. We're talking about Aerosmith right through to probably Z Z Top and a multitude of people in between. So some amazing insights coming from our two guests who's going to be introduced on this podcast now by Russell. Over to you, mate.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm really pleased you guys have been able to come on. Uh I'm very excited about the first podcast. Um, obviously, Jake Duncan, we'll start with you, mate. Uh, because you're the most senior. I won't give too much away there. Probably.
SPEAKER_00:Steve's loving you saying that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh nearly very rare for me. Yeah, nearly five nearly 55 years, I would think. Um, something like that, isn't it, Jake? Uh 72 was my first gig. Oh gosh. Anyway, I can't even work out, Steve. Anyway, and Steve, um, you know, uh, I think 45 years. Well, yeah. Anyway, I I I'd like to first just just go on to Jake, if you permit me, Steve. Um Jake, uh, maybe you can just tell us a little bit about how you got into the industry for our listeners. Um, maybe you can just uh if you can remember.
SPEAKER_00:Uh I was just a local musician in Edinburgh, and um at that point, this band, the Basity Roars, had had one hit. They'd covered an old gentry song in 1971 called Keep on Dancing, which made it to number nine in the charts. The band themselves had been going since 1965 locally, and they were quite a phenomenon in Scotland. But you know, they still really hadn't broken that nationally. They traded a little bit off of Keep On Dancing. So I was in the music store, I was a bad drummer picking up some drumsticks, and one of the two crew guys came into the store complaining about the fact that uh he had to drive to Bournemouth for a gig in two days, and the other Roddy had quit. So it was just one of these light bulb moments, and I thought, you know, they're gonna hang drawn and quarter me this weekend if I don't turn up for my own gig. But I think there's an opportunity here. So I just said, hey, I'll do it, I'll go with you. And off I went to the Chelsea village in Bournemouth, which is just across the way from the pavilion that uh Steve and I have done a few times. It's gone now. The Chelsea Village. That was me.
SPEAKER_04:So that was your starting point, Jake. And across now to Steve, uh, very much the same sort of thing. How did you get involved in this fascinating and uh world of rock and roll?
SPEAKER_05:Complete fluke, as I think most of us um have these fluke moments. I I was um gonna go on go and work in holiday camps. So I just finished this awful apprenticeship, which I won't go into, and I went to see um a band in the uh Half Moon in Hearn Hill, um, and they were a band called Nine Below Zero. And uh South London band, and I was obviously a South London boy with my brother and all my mates, and just fell in love with them and I started to follow the band, uh, became friends with them, and they were they were just going from pubs into clubs, um, and they were looking for like someone to to maybe do a bit of back line. And because I played a bit of guitar, I kind of understood the rudimentary sort of parts of that job, and uh they they um asked me if I would like to come along for a few months um to to help out, and from from then onwards, I always assumed that I would get a proper job, you know. I always thought it would be just like a temporary thing, but as you said, Russ, it's been 45 years, and then uh I mean, I don't want to go ahead too quickly for you, but then that management team eventually ended up managing Nick Kershaw, and that kind of then segued into my my first proper kind of production role, really. But anyway, that's maybe moving forward too quick. So nine below zero, what very much sort of mod early mod days and uh sort of yeah, yeah, they were the first band um ever on um um uh what's the um the the the the young ones? Uh we were the first band on the show. Yeah, originally we had no idea what what that show was. We just turned up at BBC Broadcasting at Shepherd's Bush and um asked to set up our gear in in the living room and uh and we did the pilot of the young ones and uh and they had some sort of decent success, you know. They um yeah, they went from pubs to about Hammersmith Apollo kind of level. So it was great, and they were they were doing about 250 gigs a year, so I learned a lot very quickly.
SPEAKER_04:A lot of gigs. So the young ones, and it's a young one lineup here on the podcast, it's only rock and rolling. And and Jake, I mean, starting with the Bay City Rollers, I mean, there's a lot of stories there, no doubt. Uh well, I'll bring up some point or other. But how did you move on from the Bay City Rollers to the other aspects of uh management in rock and rolling? Which sort of bands did you get involved with?
SPEAKER_00:Well, actually, as it was starting to all go a bit awry with the rollers in mid-1975, I was a fairly avid reader in those days of both the New Musical Express and the Melody Maker, and I spotted an ad in the Melody Maker for a Roddy to work with uh a European and American touring band. I didn't know who it was, applied for the advert. Turned up at Chrysalis Records in London, it was Jeff Rotell, and um they they were very, very self-sufficient at that time, they had their own sound system in the UK, they had their own 16-ton truck. So they needed somebody with an HGV. Well, I'd been driving a lot of big vans, but I didn't have an HGV. And the guy said to me, the tour manager, listen, I've got a guy here from Glasgow Funny, I've got an HGV1, he's right in the frame for this job, and he's got experience. If you can go away and just get an HGV3 so you can drive the 16-tonner, because when they rehearsed or they recorded, they always did it out in Europe for tax purposes. So away I went, I got the HGV3 and I got the job, and then before I knew it, I was sitting behind Barry Barlow in the Deutschland Harle in Berlin, totally awestruck. He had to throw a drumstick at me in the middle of the first song and yelled at me, pay attention, you dumb Scotsman, he said.
SPEAKER_02:Steve, you obviously explained about you know, when you realised that it was, you know, this is probably gonna be a job now. Um was there sort of a light bulb moment, you reckon, where where you thought, I could probably make a living at this?
SPEAKER_05:Well, do you know what it was? It was all my mates who kind of left school with me and uh you know, my pub mates who'd nine below zero gang, you know, um were we were all in banks and post offices and just and I on and assumed they had jobs for life, and then I saw them all kind of being laid off and uh all out of work and that. And I was like making a little decent living, uh, and I thought maybe, maybe this this could be my my vocation, you know. But I always always I was always waiting for you know the rug to be pulled from under me, and I think I still still am, to be honest with you. I've I feel a bit of a bluffer at times. Uh, I think we all have that imposter syndrome, don't we? Sometimes yeah, so yeah, no, it's um uh yeah, it's been it's been uh 45 years, and yeah, it's uh not not what I expected at all in my in my life, to be honest.
SPEAKER_02:It's very funny you'd mention that imposter syndrome because I I remember with myself, um I I really hadn't got any work, and someone said, Oh, you know, I got I can't remember who it was from now. Uh it was with a band called uh Lone Justice uh from America, and they said, Oh, you can do you can do guitars, can't you? And I was like, Yeah. And then I was like, Oh shit, how am I gonna do that? I can't, I don't never play the guitar, never tune the guitar. So I ran up to an old friend of mine who had a band and I said, Give me a crash course. I've got to go out, I'm going out on the road tomorrow um on how to tune guitars, which he did, and I bluffed my way through it. I mean, dear, oh dear. Uh I remember one comical uh episode at the Nuremberg Ring. I don't know if you remember ever did that gig. Yeah, but I mean we were on at 10:30 in the morning. 10:30 in the morning, and I'd just driven from London to Hamburg and Hamburg to London. I was absolutely out of my tree. I just couldn't function. And I remember that we used to play tricks on the band all the time, and um the the the guitarist broke a string in the first song, gave through me the guitar, I went to return it and I did everything. I I did everything wrong, and it was all backwards and gave it back to him. And he thought I was just playing a prank on him, you know. But no, I wasn't, I really was. But that I nearly nearly uh blew my cover then. But uh yeah, so I I can I can't.
SPEAKER_04:That reminds me of uh when you said about bluffing it, not knowing what to do. Um a quote from Richard Branson, he said, Important thing is get the job, doesn't matter if you don't know anything about it, get the job and then learn how to do it. That's what you do soon.
SPEAKER_05:Definitely definitely. I mean, I I I just a quick thing about guitar tech in. I was the worst guitar tech in the world. I mean, there's no one who works than me. I mean, I I I bluffed my way with Nick Kershaw and the guy, the guy's an amazing guitarist, and then they handed me his guitar the first time I ever worked with him, and I he had one of those um, you know, where all the tune-ins are at the bridge, as opposed to machine kids, and I'd never seen it before in my life, you know. And he was so I mean, he just sussed me out. I mean, I think Nick realized that I was a bluffer, but he for some reason he let let it go, but um, perhaps he quite liked me. But um, yeah, oh my god.
SPEAKER_02:Jake Jake, Jake would probably probably uh back me up on this when we work with people like this, there's loads of them, but people like um Dave uh uh Dave Davis. Was it Dave Davis? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guitar tape. Yeah, he'd throw a guitar in the air and it'd come down like tuned and mended, you know. People like that. You know, it's just like I thought we meant Dave Davis from the Kinks, yeah. I know. Um, anyway, um Jake, any any recollections of funny shenanigans from those early days when we were all bluffing it?
SPEAKER_00:Well, you talk about bluffing it. I actually covered for the Bass City Rollers drummer for about four or five shows when he had to go into hospital. They tried to get a uh a drummer from another band that was in the same management stable, but they had a load of gigs. So I said, listen, yeah, I think I can do this. I've been watching it every night for months and months, and I was uh I was definitely a below average drummer. Um that week I got myself 30 quid a week, they doubled my wages from 15 to 30 when I played in the band, and I thought, this is it, I've arrived. Yeah, and you had hair then. Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Big time doubling your wages by standing in as a drummer for the base of the rollers.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so in the in the in the in the most notable lineup, let's just call it the famous five, the successful lineup. I was the only one that ever played uh drums that are ever deputised for Derek, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Have you still got the flared shorts?
SPEAKER_00:Sorry?
SPEAKER_02:Have you still got the flared shorts? The flared tartan shorts.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no tartan in my house. Yeah, free five. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:But people forget, don't they, that bass city rolls what what an absolutely huge band they was at the time. And also how they were very, very quick in their career trying to break America, right? Because I've seen photographs and video of Jake in the States with Bass City Rollers in the very early 70s as well.
SPEAKER_00:Well, they they were just about to call it a day um when Phil Coulter and oh the Scottish lads, his writing partner. Bill Bill come to me. Um they they had the last shot in the UK, they released a song called Saturday Night that didn't really go anywhere, and it went huge in America. It went to number one in America, and the whole thing just took off vastly in America.
SPEAKER_02:Just but Jake, did was that were they gonna call it a day because you were drum you were drumming for them? Is that is that Google's in Jake?
SPEAKER_00:If you had my drumming, you'd want to call it a day as well.
SPEAKER_04:So, Jake, quick one regarding the Americans. Um, what what was the appeal for the you know, why do they like the base of the roads so much? What was the big appeal there, do you think?
SPEAKER_00:I think it was just a teen thing. You know, they'd had Donny Osmond. I can't recollect exactly where we fell into it uh chronologically, but you know, what Steve was saying is the one amazing thing about this band is that 95% of the kids coming to the show were dressed like the band. Now, you know, you do get factions of fans with certain bands that were dressed that way, or for Bowie, one of the acts that Steve worked for, but you know, predominantly you looked out into that audience, it was just a sea of tartan.
SPEAKER_04:Phenomenal, absolutely. Uh Steve, across to you now. Now, in the uh early days of your career, which has been pretty extensive to say the very least, a big event came along, Live Aid. Was it the 13th of July 1985? You were involved in that. So, what was your impression of Live Aid? And give go through some of the uh things you remember most about that big event.
SPEAKER_05:Well, I I came at it from two angles, actually, which is kind of quite unique if I say so myself, because um, as well as working for Nick Kershaw at the time, who was on relatively early on the day, I was also working for Harvey Goldsmith. So I was privy to all of the I was, you know, I saw the meetings going on with Midge and with um with Bob Gelder and and Andrew Zweck, who Russell and Jake know very, very well legends, absolutely absolute mentor of mine. So and then I was also yeah, yeah, and then I was also um Harvey's um secretary couldn't work the um do you remember emails had just come out at that time, tanda tandy and that. And they couldn't download their emails, and so the American um who was the promoter in America? It was Bill, wasn't it? Bill Graham died in a helicopter crash afterwards, but um Harvey was pulling his hair out with the Americans, he was going nuts at them because they could not get their head around the fact that people were expected to work for for no fees, you know. So he was going, yeah, but I've got to give the cage was money, I've got to give the rigors money, and Harvey's going, No, you don't. Can we spare on this? Yeah, you can do what you want. He said, You don't fucking understand, you know, it's like we every does it for nothing, you know. So he really really and in the end, Andy's week and Pete Wilson and Harvey had to fly out to the States about two weeks before the Philadelphia show just to try and show them how to put on a big charity event, you know. So I was privy to all that as well. But of course, on the day it was uh incredible. I mean, we all arrived. I think I don't know if Jake was there that early because he was with George, I think. Um we all arrived at nine o'clock at the conference centre, they used that as this kind of big communal uh meeting point, you know, and it was it was like going into a big locker room, changing room, and all the bands were sort of like warming up, all sitting on these little little benches and that, waiting to be ferried up to the backstage at Wembley, and it was it was that everyone you'd ever known. In and I'm talking about there was no there was no egos, there was no star thing, everyone just came in together, shaking hands, talking about stuff, and then we all got ferried up backstage to to uh to our dressing room uh porter cabins or whatever they were.
SPEAKER_04:So it was a strong camaraderie amongst the stars. Have you seen on a smaller scale anywhere else since live aid? Sorry, yeah, that's strong camaraderie, no egos being involved amongst all those big game stars. Have you seen it anywhere else since live aid?
SPEAKER_05:I mean, I think it was um I think it was the first. Let's be honest, I think it was really. I mean, um I know there was Woodstock and all that kind of stuff, but I I can't recall anything of this this size and with with um yeah, just I don't think we had any comparison uh before that. You know, this was a brand new idea, and to get all these stars on board, and as we all know, this this the famous story of no sound checking and the the cake stage where divided into three parts one band setting up, one band playing, one bad band coming off. I mean, it was it was never really been done before, unless Jake knows more than me. I I don't I wasn't aware of it.
SPEAKER_02:I mean uh Jake, I I I wanted to ask you actually, because I remember watching it from a garden. I had the TV out in the garden because it was a beautiful day, wasn't it? It was amazing. Just just do you remember, Jake? I think we were possibly getting ready to go with Wham to Wham America. That's uh and you just took George and did it. Is that what happened? Were we in rehearsals and we'd just come back from China or something? Is that am I getting my dates wrong?
SPEAKER_00:I seem to think I seem to think now it was either this or it it was the um Nelson Mandela tribute, but it all hammed it fairly short notice for George. We were in Europe. Yeah, yeah, we were finishing up Europe, so the only place we had we needed to rehearse some of those songs, even though George was singing with with other musicians. Um his band agreed that you know they would run through some of the songs with them. But the only um rehearsal hall we could find was in Hamburg and about five blocks from the Reaper band. So I sent the crew down there to get set up, etc. And I turned up at lunchtime and there was no crew there. Jake, of course there wasn't. The thing obviously it was quite easy for me because it was just a case of marching George on. But one of the things that I recall from Live Aid is back then they used a blimp. And when Elton John sang Rocket Man and he got to the line of the song When Are You Gonna Come Down? They zoomed from that stage right back up to that blimp. Brilliant camera shot. It's one that one of the few things that I remember from that day. It's a fairly manic day, but yeah, good bunch of people.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah. It was amazing. And and watching, I mean, I was very lucky to actually watch Queen. Well, I say I watched Queen from the side of stage as much as you could be side of stage that day, but I was relatively close. And we I knew at the time they were just killing it. They were just, I mean, that performance was uh unbelievable, and that band and that management team just got that whole day above above everybody else. They, you know, they did the medleys, you know, and they were just they just stole the day.
SPEAKER_02:They didn't want to do it, they didn't want to do it, did they, Steve, to start with?
SPEAKER_05:They had to become they they people forget that they wasn't, they were a bit coming down, you know, they were over the arc almost. They were not as big as they'd been. Um, they were sort of playing, they weren't playing stadiums, they were playing arenas and that, you know. Um, no, they wasn't really keen, and they were kind of there was a lot. I remember some people being quite anti-Qeen on the bill because they thought they were a bit past their self-ide. Unbelievable, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:And a special mention to Status Quo for starting the show with rocking all over the world, you know. Yeah, yeah. That that was a run, I run it up to Queen's performance for me.
SPEAKER_05:And they were so clever there as well because they they they asked for that starting spot because one, they knew they'd get a sound check and the only band probably did, but also they knew to start that show. People still talk about them now, status quo, uh, with uh in the context of live aid, and so many other bands had just forgotten about on the day because they had that incredible opening spot.
SPEAKER_04:So, Steve, what was your actual role at uh at the show, live aid?
SPEAKER_05:Well, it was just typical, I was just back back line person with Nick Kershaw. I was I've been doing Nick Kershaw's tours, and um, so I was just his back line person. It was before my first production management role, so I was just uh being the average guitar tech, the biggest uh uh bluff guitar tech in the world on the biggest show in the world.
SPEAKER_04:A fabulous experience for you, and one which we'll probably never ever forget.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, absolutely crapping myself as well. But uh yeah, so it was but it was it was amazing to you know to be there. I it was incredible, incredible, you know, great day.
SPEAKER_04:I had a very slight connection with live aid from a remote distance. I was uh in the early days of my broadcasting career, I was working at BBC Radio Stoke. Uh, I got thrown in the deep end to host a four and a half hour afternoon show on a Saturday, and it was basically going out and about to all different places with an outside broadcast van. And on this occasion, uh the producer said, Right, um, throw it at me. We're going live to uh Wembley now to speak to uh to someone regarding the show. And it was a namesake, it was uh Andy Kerschel who got thrown in the deep end to host it for probably BBC what was BBC Two at the time or whatever. Uh so yeah, we were sort of dipping in and out every sort of uh half hour with some uh reactions and inserts from from uh stateside with the the guys from TV.
SPEAKER_02:It was iconic, it was an iconic thing in in rock history, you know. There's no there's no tools about it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it's really strange as well, Russ, is that everyone was relatively blasé about all the other bands who were playing, like um the only star struck, everyone was starstruck about McCartney because as we all know at the time, he hadn't been on stage for 10 years since Wings, I think. Um and it's funny, the side of the stages were relatively quiet. Everyone else was in the hard rock cafe backstage, and but on when McCartney came on, literally every star, every rock and roll icon that day rushed to the side of the stage to just to you know rubber neck McCartney. And then sadly, as we all know, he he had so many technical issues, and the only artists on the day that had technical issues on you know was the show.
SPEAKER_02:Can I can I just um I'm just reeling back, I'll have to remind you of this, uh, which is a bit of I'll go off on a tangent, but uh my if you remember, my son, you were working for madness, and my son had picked up an old an old tape in this secondhand car I had that only had a tape player, the radio didn't work, and I had this one tape, and it was one step beyond. It was um, yeah, one step beyond that one there. I can see it at the back there of your uh thing. And and um he used to play it over and over again. He knew all the words, he was a nutty boy, called himself a nutty boy, and it was about five or six years old. I you and I got in touch with him. I said, Uh, are you doing Brighton? He said, Yeah, yeah, we're doing Brighton. It was around the Christmas time. I said, Well, I'd have to take him out of school, but he's got to come, you know. So you got some lovely seats. We watched, we watched Madness. Afterwards, he said, Do you want to come backstage? I'm not really a ligger type, but I I did. And um, and and and there was a bar there, and I had my but my uh I had my wife and and uh at the time and Niall with me. I didn't have my daughter at the time, and uh there there was some people sitting on a sofa, and I went to get a glass of wine for from a missus, and um I I said, and she was going, Oh, look, look, look, look, look. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, I can see, I can see it is anyway. It was Paul McCartney and Heather Mills. And yeah, and and so the only place so she went and sat next to him. My my my my lad went, and as you know, my lad's a professional footballer, and he he loved football even then, crazy about it. And and and he started and Paul McCartney started talking to oh, son, do you like football and all that? And my son wasn't interested, didn't know who he was, didn't care who he was. If he'd known that she had a wooden leg, he would have been very interested. All he wanted to do was to meet Suggsy, which waiting for the band to come, and and that was it. And the next day, sorry, I have to just tell you this, which I never told you this. The next day I was sitting there reading the evening, uh the evening Argus. There was a picture of Paul McCartney because he'd bought a house in Sussex. And I turned, I said to my son, I said, Do you do you remember that guy there? I said, he said, Yeah, he said, Yeah, uh he was that old guy with with with with a suit and trainers. And I said, I said, I said, Well, that old guy, I said, he's the most famous, probably most famous alive musician in the world. And what really impressed him, because it always impresses kids, and I said, He's probably the richest as well. And he went, Really? And but I never told him that she had a wooden leg, otherwise he would have been on his knee asking us to look at it. But yeah, I'm gonna rusty.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, he came to that show and he was in he was in the backstage within the band's dressing room where we had a bit of a party, and he was there for a good hour and a half, and he and it they were both fan lovely. But my biggest regret, and but I've met him a couple of times since. Yeah, is I've of course I love the Beatles, but I've since in the last few years I've just become obsessed about since the uh the documentary, you know, um uh Twicking of Studios and then Into the Apple building. Abby I've just become obsessed about Beatles and McCartney, and I just wish I had that mindset then because I just was very blase about it. It's really strange what I'm at.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think we were always like that. We were sort of conditioned to not be star strapped. Don't you think, Jake? We met all these people. I mean, on on on the uh Jake and I did the Wham tours together, you'd have Lisa Manelli coming back, you'd have Elton John coming with 20 people and Stevie Nick, you know, falling over everyone just as you're trying to get the panel say, but it's like you know, guys, you you you just become like that, and it's a shame, really.
SPEAKER_00:I I always say that yeah, you and we we've all had this in our own experience. There's many, many celebrities out there, but there's very few stars, you know. People who've got star qual moral and personal star quality. If you count them on one hand sometimes, yeah, we can't tell you who the other ones are, but we can yeah.
SPEAKER_05:About the celebrity side of it or the star side of it, it's like we we we're not supposed to be in awe of we're you know we work. I know people I don't know if you get it as well, Jake and Russell, but when people use with family and friends and they go, Do you know them? When you say you've you're doing a tour with somebody go, or do you actually meet them or do you uh you know, or do you know them? But it's like you know, it you sort of I I feel that I play it down almost, but I don't ever ever have photographs. So even with Bowie, I've never sadly I never had the bottle to say, Can I have a picture with you? You know, to be honest with you. I've never done one of them sort of like hand round the shoulder things, you know.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know, he's what I don't, I don't, I don't know whether you guys know of uh uh an old roadie called Alan Lynch, he was from Liverpool. Alan Lynch, he was like way back in the day, and he was like, Russ, he said they all piss and shit the same as us. My really bad Liverpool accent, but yeah, he used to have a very good uh uh outlook on on this whole thing, you know, and it's true, it is true. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I'm for the artists that'll pick their own luggage off the belt at the airport, you know. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:Well, when when I when I when I worked with Chris Rear, I picked him up at Abu Dabi Airport, and in those days there was no security, and all the people knew me. And I used to go to the baggage place, you know, and Chris Rear gets off the plane, and um and he he's got this little bag, it's like a plumber's bag. And I said, Um, well, your bag, your bags are taking a bit of time. I better go and talk. He said, No, this is it, mate. That's all I got. For the rest of the tour, I used to lend him clothes. And all he was interested in, well, Phil, you you probably interviewed him, you're probably around at that time, and all he was interested in was bacon sandwiches and a and a and a bit pint of bitter after the show, which honestly, guys, that is the hardest thing to get in a Muslim country. But anyway, there you go. That's a that's another one. But he was he was pretty down to earth, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, so moving on from um live aid, and uh Steve, you were at the time really working with Nick Kershaw, as you said, and um after that, what do you remember? How did things flow for you, career?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I started um do it was working more as a promoter's rep, and I kind of we met I met Russell obviously at the time when I was doing a bit of that for Harvey Goldsmith, who was the biggest promoter. I mean, this is years before SJMs and all those, yeah, all those types. I always think Harvey's kind of overlooked a little bit as how groundbreaking he was, you know, as a as a I mean, you know, one of the first promoters to start thinking of using Wembley Stadium in the 70s and that is uh you know. Um yeah, I was working with him and then one of the uh
SPEAKER_00:uh tours that he um he uh took on was the first ever bross tour um and very similar to the base city rollers just incredible crazy fans you know we used to do load ins and there'd be 200 kids cheering the flight cases coming down the the back of the the truck you know um they um after a couple of days they never had a production manager um they were a bit short staffed and that and so they asked me if i would cover that role as well as promoters rep in so but i ended up um working with with them um and then leaving harveys and then becoming um a more regular production manager tour manager you know i i wasn't really uh i was never the great a great promoters rep and um uh i never really enjoyed it to be honest it's a hard job steve as you and i know and yeah it's uh hard job it is it is difficult yeah it's uh I can't I don't know why it's difficult I think there's that element where you you spend all day there appeasing everybody on both sides the venue the the artists the production the tour managers and then you get the promoter turn up with his you know flashy suit at eight o'clock in the evening takes all the credit you know it's it's all the credit and all the money but then you got then you've got to climb in your car at 11 o'clock if the production or tour manager for the act you're working with will let you go and you've got to drive another six hours from Leicester down to Plymouth and you've got to be there at eight nine in the morning when the first truck shows up you know there was a period I went through where I had a sleeping bag in the back of the car when I was doing that job.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah yeah so I I I did I actually that's where we met Steve um uh when you were working for Harvey and we we worked on that uh that uh um rock and roll revival tour yeah and I'll just quickly tell you I just thought of us the the one thing it ended at the Albert Hall and we were doing it in the round and we had no budget and and uh we needed a revolving stage and uh you or someone said well what about George Benson he's got one so he got in touch with George Benson's lot we could afford the stage but we couldn't afford the motor so we had we had 10 crew on their backs crew for every song it was on the radio it was like guys just turn it turn it around now yeah and go you know and all that stuff I mean really in I don't know it was it was a full house but it they never knew and uh we got away with it another bluff I do remember that it was a that was a funny old tour wasn't it Ricky Nelson I think it was about a month before he got killed all of them gone all of them gone I remember Bo Diddley nearly killing me because I thought oh I'll get his guitar out he had this homemade guitar and uh I'll get his guitar out and give it a tune you know he'll be happy if I do that the guy nearly killed me don't ever touch my guitar one the famous square one yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah big mistake uh Jake tell us back in the day I mean and looking back I mean you've had to do a lot of tell us a little bit about you know having to massage the artist's ego you know just for the common good of the tour it's it it's difficult isn't it because uh sometimes you you you you have to I mean my my my way of doing it was always I'll just be very honest with them you know like if they said oh I just tripped over that I'd say look where you're going you wanna you know and they'd always do a double take but if that but you know what I mean but you do there is a certain amount of diplomacy massaging the ego you get some really crazy people some crazy requirements um you know I I it it takes me back to my first uh wham show was it and you guys have done this kick as well the the infamous Whitley Bay ice rink and um you used to have to go outside to get warm yeah everyone was sick yeah no I I in fact bless George he allowed me it's my first tour with them and I and Simon Napo Bell and Jazz Summers wanted it done right because they knew George was on his way to his own stellar career.
SPEAKER_00:So I actually went and advanced those shows like three a day in the UK just to double check everything.
SPEAKER_05:The first place I went was Whitley Bay I could not get rid of that cold before they start the tour you know but I do recall it it was you know usual hurried thing merchandising arriving at half past seven sort of thing and um when the show was over you know you get it's the first show that recognition everybody turns up they all want to be there the agent a lot and off they went back into dress room Ronnie Franklin was just standing outside I was close by the door opened just a touch and George who I didn't really know that well at that point because I'd come on at short notice beckoned me into the dressing room and he says now I'm gonna ask you what do you think of the show and I said well to be honest George I thought it was a bit rough at the edges he said I'm glad to hear that he says you'll do you know you know there's just that some person there always a time where you've got you've got to pick your actors to do this with because some of them can't take it but there's a time when you've just got to tell it like it is yeah scenario of the Emperor's clothes isn't it really I suppose everyone say yeah it's great George and uh you say it's rough around the edges ice rinks let's Russell in Dubai couple of ice rinks there we use a lot for shows we must have done a few uh the Al Nassau or the one at the Hyatt Regency uh the lights and the gang Cliff Richard oh tons of them maxi oh not maxi peace that was on the beach um yeah loads of them loads of whitley bay was horrendous uh I tell you as well in the Europe uh when I was working with um I'm gonna name drop here Christa Berg um uh I was um I was doing a lot of tours with him and he was huge yeah I don't know if anyone's aware how big Christopher was in in Europe and Germany in general I mean uh Jake mentioned the Deutschland Halley used to do about three nights there I mean the guy was printing money in those days um and uh yeah so it just you know and you I remember having to there was always snow on the roof in the winter there so you you couldn't get half the rig in in the roof because there was tons and tons of snow on uh and working freezing cold temperatures on ice rinks you know pushing pushing flight cases some some some ice rinks weren't covered or part partially covered horrible days but Whitley Bay is probably the worst ice rink I've ever had to work in uh the the Whitley Bay that I remember was the cold obviously but the thing that hit me when the show when when the this was with Wam with Jay when the boys came on stage I had never worked with a teeny band before you know teeny bop band if you like yeah I've done those what what what what I what hit me immediately was my eardrums were rattling with the screaming I'd never experienced that before um you were probably got used to it but that I just remember thinking shit this is this is something else you know like thousands of kids just screaming you know yeah and we used to have like they used to pass out didn't they Jake we used to have like kids hospital out the barrier and then they even they would pretend to pass out so they could be passed over the barrier to them right yeah and halfway over the barrier and they could just put one foot in the top of the barrier and leap onto the stage that was our favorite one of the I used to pretend to pass out so I could go home but no important but I remember Whitley Bay the uh the riggers like being covered in bird shit you know because every time they sort of like you know started to rig over the beams there it was just the amount of crap that would come out of that roof it was horrendous riggers no no sympathy for those mad guys but remember this was the days before most arenas you maybe had Wembley you had the NEC so a venue where you could pack four and a half thousand people onto the floor was a good little money maker and that's where Whitley Bay came into its own.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah and it was there was no obviously it was years before the um the very average arena in Newcastle they they've kind of gone they've slightly made it slightly better than Whitley Bay but only slightly yeah yeah but but great fans let's be honest Newcastle fans yeah oh I love them guys let's just just changing the subject a little bit do you do you still get I mean Jake's I have to tell you he's on his um like I said he's on his uh doing his his gap year um in his later life now on a train journey around Europe at the moment um but do you get a a sense because I know Steve you're now into management did but do you get this sort of yearning to uh after a while if you're sitting at home pack the case and go somewhere because that's basically all we did for so long?
SPEAKER_00:To be honest Russell not anymore for me. You know the the longer I'm away from it the longer A I wonder how I managed it you know I probably like Steve as well I know most itineraries are now online um with Master Tour etc but you know I've still got two shelves filled with these standard A5 comb bound itineraries and I run my thumb along them and I think it could not have been me. But you know that's a facet I think of getting older your energy level does drop but you know it took an awful lot of energy and a lot of application in a business where somebody once said to me most artists never remember the 99 things you did right you know and you know and we had no personal time as you know Russell there's no time of your own no you should really be calling home but the artist is knocking on your door so you can get a pass for his girlfriend's friend etc and days and weeks and months fly by and I just think especially with where my children because one of them is in Australia now one of them's in Vietnam it gives me time to go and see them you know yes it we got a great living out of it but boy it's full on you earn it you earn every every butt what about you Steve oh I couldn't I couldn't handle it no more russell I'm I'm I'm seriously I'm so so over it I if I never have to see a a back lounge of a tour bus again in my life I'll be happy I I don't want to sit with a load of moaning roadies um because they're worse than the band let's be honest I mean they moan about everything and um yeah so that's what kind of in the end um yeah I remember sort of um doing at the time I was doing a lot more production management than tour management but I ended up saying right I'm gonna just concentrate on tour management now because I just got so fed up with people whinging and complaining about everything.
SPEAKER_05:And I thought the band are probably a little bit easier to deal with and the artists as well.
SPEAKER_02:So no um I can't I spent half my married life on the road only saw my kids half my half my adult life um I just can't handle it no more um yeah yeah me too I I mind you I went into I did do a lot more promoter repping and um but that still also kept me away but then obviously I moved to the Middle East and set up my own scenic company um so we just uh we just built built a groundbreaker on that wasn't you right so I remember you when you first told me you were going there I was like wow because at the time it was very almost unheard of wasn't it yeah well I went there as a promoter's rep and the the idea was with the promoter was that I was going to do the Middle East and and uh Asia but Jackson had gone round before uh in Asia and bankrupted all the promoters so there's sort of we were we were working with they they they had no money so in the end they were committed to me already so they just said well okay we do we do a couple of a couple of shows between September and May we do a couple of shows a month and I did some I mean I did I did meatloaf$13,000 a night you know even in those days that was cheap you know because record companies supported it couldn't do it now did meatloaf UB40 uh you know where where I had the tour accountant Jake would relate to this cry crying you know where strangely a hundred thousand pounds had gone somewhere um um on on some stuff that you couldn't really write in the accounts and stuff like that maybe you can't put that in the podcast but uh anyway things like that you know we did some amazing bands and we were like Duran Duran and uh Tom James in the car park and yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah lots lots lots of these lots of these artists what was that Jackson obviously the was that the one the the the Marcel Avram kind of connection Jackson tour that you didn't know I don't know I think um an old strange blower used to own wholfell buses what was his name and he was Berryhurst wasn't he originally I think yes yeah I don't know I know that he was involved a lot in that that Jackson that whole world tour with Jackson yeah but I think what happened there Russ is that they didn't they offer him um a guaranteed amount of money up front and then he then he started getting uh il cancelling shows and then he he had to honor honor the uh the sho the amount of shows that he agreed so yeah it was uh a an ex-colleague of Jake and I's worked on Jackson in the end who's no longer with us bless him um Benny Collins oh yeah yeah Benny Collins you remember Benny Collins he's probably like big big guy he should always have a secret yeah he was quite a character but in in my per i Steve for some input as well in this but you know in in this side of the pond the tour manager pretty much calls the shots and runs the roost in America my experience has been that the production manager you know is the head horshow and a lot of time the tour manager obviously is a great administrator but he's not over involved in the serious decision making the production manager's carrying that can and that's how I sort of remember Benny Collins as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah absolutely I still I I still uh uh I'm traumatized that he didn't let me play in the game uh in China the football game yeah when you'd had your your heart's kit curried over you were ready yeah and and I and I said to him I said Benny when's this game I want to play in it it's already happened I said I want to play it and he said no you get injured I said well I'm not I'm not like a striker you know I'm not like we're not running a proper football team it's just a kickabout oh no you wouldn't let me in it so I I I came across Benny uh several years later I was looking after the opening act on the Michael Jackson Dangerous tour this girl called Rosala you may remember she had one major hit um everyone is free or everybody's free lovely girl from Zimbabwe but you know the record company wanted it done properly so um sorry paid me real well just to go and look after it but so I had a ringside seat to the whole thing and on the second show at Wembley Michael for some reason would not leave the hotel and they pulled the show once the audience was in the stadium. So Benny Collins said hang on I'll handle it.
SPEAKER_02:Somebody's got to tell these poor people it's not going to happen so he steps up downstage centre to the microphone and 72000 people just went what and Barry Clayman had to go back out there and tell the kids and that was horrendous because all these parents started making a beeline for Wembley to pick up their children and other people were trying to leave what a nightmare of course I think the parents coming to pick up pick kids up yeah um before before we we we move on or you know we're cracking on here I did want to talk to you about you know backstage um gate crashers liggers as we call them um you know bands friends and interaction and I'll just share one thing with you which might trigger uh remember we used to do these university tours you know and I I was I was working with a band called Gene loves Jezebel I was a tour manager and like you Jake I think I learned this from you always look out for the band because the band you know they don't realize that every time you give a big guess list it's coming out of your your percentage you know it's it's uh it it's not a good thing and I was used to fight fight for the that and the uh the band were moaning to me that they weren't making any money and I said well your your guest list they had this sort of cult following they used to put all the followers on the guest list at every show around these university you know campuses so I they said well typical band thing this they said yes go on just take them off the off the guest off the guest list which I did and of course um before the show the whole of the hall maybe a thousand people were chanting russell is a wanker because they've because when they when they when they were um asking the band why why couldn't we why did we have to pay to get in they said oh well that's russell our tour manager's fault even though they'd asked me to do it you know is there anything you know that you remember because I know Jake you were very strong on that you know I've I've Jake's always been very strong on that the way I get round it to these artists you know the second time I worked with Westlife and poor Steve has had that experience as well in his stellar career but you know they were complaining about trying to get more money and I said listen if we are sold out and you've got 30 tickets waiting held for you for your guest list at the venue okay if you let these tickets go we can sell them not a problem if you don't and you let people on the guest list that you don't know then believe it or not you're actually paying people to come to your show you know and it should be the other way around they should be paying to get into your show but you are allowing them to come to your show and take money out of your pocket and that makes them sit down and think of it you know yeah one of one of the um the great it's very strange to say this but during the the pandemic I was um tour managing madness um and we were doing our usual Christmas arena tour and nearly every tour had been cancelled postponed or you know we were out on the road with a few other bands um but the one of the great things about that tour and the only good thing about that tour was nobody was allowed backstage now for a madness show that's unbelievable because their rider would be and again something else that the band are paying for which sometimes quite fathom was you don't get it did it you don't get it the fact that you have whatever you want especially American artists I want champagne caviar prawns and god yeah you can have whatever you want you're paying for it it's okay it's a show cost yeah we get into profit and then but yeah um and um the manuscript always used to have an abundance of rider and would set up like family and friends rooms with full of like huge amounts of alcohol but the great thing about the the pandemic was nobody nobody at all was allowed backstage apart from the people on the tour and we did about 15 shows and it was like you know there was tumbleweed backstage but that was that was very strange but that was it was also wonderful just to finish a show without having a lot of tossers backstage yeah and they made they made a lot of money more money I might say it's very insightful hearing about the the rider situation the guests uh list uh costings going to the band because as a non-promoter uh yeah one assumed that okay it was up to the promoter to uh pass that over and not really charge the band so yeah it's a good way of uh telling them you're losing the money because you're paying for for both aspects yeah some of the crazy some of some of the riders are ridiculous I was gonna say Steve maybe you could start with us just very very quickly each person just mention one of the craziest riders that they've ever come across just very briefly because there are some Gaza ones I mean predominant I can't think of anything but it it invariably it was always predominantly the American artists the American artists and the waste and like with like with anything in America even the restaurants and you know you go to Carnegie Delhi and people like they give you the size of a sandwich that you know it's in and you leave half of it and they they throw it in the in the trash you know so it's just a waste and uh and also the catering like you know the it's all that the the catering is so over the top you know the three course mills that could feed an army uh but and that's what I find and the riders on the buses as well. No wonder the crew these American crews can't get up in the morning Steve you know the rider that's put on the bus the night before we used to have a curly cheese and pickle sandwich didn't we would be out for the moon about that at one o'clock in the morning but they'd have pizzas and Kentucky fried chicken and oh god it's um like you said I don't know they got in their bunks half the time how how many slim experienced American production managers do you know you know what uh how many slim experienced American production managers do you know uh uh none is the answer no yeah what about you Jake anything that springs to mind i now I can record recall the artist maybe when I was being a promoter's rep but they wanted Baskin Robbins ice cream and at the time baskin robbins had only come into the UK say the year before in certain isolated areas to test the market and we sent the runner from the NEC to Nottingham to pick up this ice cream and then of course by the time it got back it was like a milkshake had to go back at the freezer and but that was certainly an American artist or or these artists they they they they fly into Birmingham and airport and they say send a runner to get me I say you can walk here in 10 minutes to the NEC no no no no no send a runner man send a runner you know excessive just obviously the the the rider stories are crazy we had Phil and I experienced one thing with a certain uh uh 80s pop band who came to Dubai and uh it was categorically stated in the rider that that there should be no brown carpets anywhere in any site of the keyboard player um and um that was in their rider and I shared that with Steve and uh with um uh Phil and Phil at that time had the midday special the biggest radio show in Dubai and uh he he uh he dedicated to this certain artist uh a track by the inspiral carpets yeah and uh yeah so that that that was our little our little uh there was a little one I think you're involved with the opening of uh the major golf club in Dubai Dubai Creek golf club with a big orchestra and also Shirley Bassey and uh I'd be involved as a MC for a lot of these shows especially with Russell and I I went to I was at backstage of course went to the side of where she was coming on and the paint was there was paint smell everywhere and she didn't like the colour of the dressing room didn't she and at the very last moment before she arrived what paint was colour yeah what happened was we had to build um a dressing room for Shirley a dressing room for uh the band uh and a dressing room uh with like a hangout place for the crew and a production office and that was on the 18th green of a new golf course there was no water supply no electrical supply nothing and Phil Bowdry who you both know um was looking after Shirley at the time and he was like hello Russell can you build us this and this and that and I was like yeah okay we can do it well we're you know but we've really running out of time and by the time he sent me exactly what he wanted to and showers as well in them all and then the day before sure they came in uh for the rehearsals before the before the event uh Phil called me from London he said I I I he said I've I I forgot to tell you I need uh a place for the conductor I said yeah I'll find him a place in the court he said no you have to build another room you know like a and and I said but but I can't do you know shower he said no you have to do shower I was like oh anyway we did it we were night and day and we we did it and then Phil walked in the next day and he walked into Shirley's room and uh he was like he's going oh this is amazing Russ you've done an amazing job great great credit to you and all that he said but then went bloody hell he said smells of paint I said Steve it was only painted two hours ago because it was only built yesterday and oh Shirley won't be able to do that la la la la I he said chop up some onions and that's when I first heard about the onion thing you know and he chopped put put some onions in a plate and it will absorb all the thing but yeah that that was that was crazy. But don't forget the um the famous Shirley Bassie was renowned for her riders and her dressing rooms yeah you we have to all record that the Match Apollo the dressing room upstairs or the the star room the old what was originally for for Shirley it was all redecorated and everything and she's the one who insisted that she in her rider she has an insistence that the toilet seat is always white so she uh but but that that room at the uh the Apollo was was redecorated and uh for a couple of night nights of shows that she did in the uh early 80s I think and it's still I think it's still the same decor now but I haven't been back to Mestro Apollo for a few what what a performer though what a performer absolutely goldfinger and like wow amazing and then the other thing is I remember uh I did Pavarotti in Hyde Park and that was in that rain when all the you know the royal family and the PM and the all the cabinet were in getting soaked like rats in front of the stage because they all put their umbrellas up and all the all the Hoy Peloy behind started telling them to put the umbrellas down so even Diana sitting there with a paper bag a plastic bag over and he couldn't he couldn't do stairs I mean it's a bit like Mariah Carey but it's Pavarotti this time he he would not do stairs so we had to get a scissor lift to bring him up and down from this the stage and I remember Diana and Charles were waiting for him to come off the stage and uh she would look like a drowned rat to be honest so beautiful and I remember coming down in the scissor lift with him behind this curtain and it seems to take an eternity you know scissor lifts and then all of a sudden we opened this curtain and I I walked him through and to to meet Diana and Charles and that and I had no idea that two seconds earlier he'd been like coming down at sort of like for about a minute in the scissor lift you know well I mean the the um those those are difficult things to to conjure up these the these these riders and and you know people's specific uh needs but also it doesn't help sometimes when you have a bit of a troublesome artist and we haven't touched on this and I haven't touched on this for a very good very good uh reason because I think enough's been said about our dear friend Ozzy um but I I would like just each of you to um maybe without um putting yourself in trouble uh talking about uh an artist that you think you work with I mean Jake there is one story which I found quite funny and it's it's written about it's in the book uh about um the Alamo and I think you were there with Ozzy weren't you for the Alamo I was in San Antonio yeah yeah actually I didn't go I didn't walk out with them to uh to walk along to the the uh Alamo I was busy just trying to get the gig together I think he and Sharon had possibly had a minor tiff and off he stormed and basically you know in those days that's before he and Sharon were married so you know they were just going out together really and he'd come out of a long relationship he you you know he um by his own admission was dependent on a lot of drugs at the time I'm not even sure he knew where he was he just wandered along the street our hotel wasn't far from the Alamo and uh needed to pee and that was it so they arrested him but we managed to convince the authorities that there'd be a bigger riot if he didn't play than you know if he did but after the show they were they were um that the band bus like the band bus and Aussie's bus they were escorted out of the state yeah into al Alabama they're gonna stop I think it's fair to say that that that man needed a lot of management on the road gave you a few headaches I would imagine Steve what about you mate you yeah you seem to have had a bit of a light ride like maybe I'm doing you a disservice there um I I worked with about three artists who oh my god I'm gonna I'm gonna name names I don't care um Nigel Kennedy uh the Mockney Fiddler yeah yeah yeah was um managed at the time with by someone who
SPEAKER_05:Jake will know extremely well, Jazz Summers.
SPEAKER_00:Oh god.
SPEAKER_05:Jazz is a legend or was a legend, bless his heart. And I he asked me to uh to look after Nigel Kennedy, and um he was painful, he was painful. Um yeah, he's uh you know wanted the biggest uh the biggest suite in the best hotel in every every city, then insisted on about three or four huge industrial um humidifiers going into the suite to keep his violin to a certain humidity. Um, and then he kind of wanted to be one of the lads and go and go and jam with the local band in the clubs, but he couldn't just go along and play a little bit of fiddle. He'd sort of insist on bringing like a pedal board, you know, and 15 pedals to play his violin, violin through. So uh I remember doing a show with him at the barbecue and leaving that night. You know, you must have been there yourself. I I remember walking out to the stage door, putting him in the car, and literally fuck off. Um I'm out of here, you know. And I remember I remember the relief of just going home that night thinking I've never got to, I've never have to work with that little prick again. Yeah, you know, yeah. Um fair enough. And then I mean I've I've had managers like that as well that work. Some of the it's it, you know what I find? Invariably the artist is wonderful, but they have a prick of a manager.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's getting to the artist, you know.
SPEAKER_02:I I would I'll verify that absolutely. Um, one time with with Meatloaf, um, you probably don't know him and he'll never listen to this podcast. Michael Jeans was the his um production manager. Um we toured him with with with uh with meat, meat as they call him, meat, and uh he was fine. Meatlo was fine, he was great, he was a geezer, you know. But um every single hotel we went into, he made everybody, the crew, the band, sit in the hotel lobby and wait for him to go and check out all the beds. Not only for meat, but the beds, beds for everyone. It was like you know, you know, it was just some trip it was on, you know. It was it was a nightmare. And uh yeah, that wasn't one of my most pleasurable uh I agree with you, Steve. Sometimes people, you know, they it it it goes to their head a bit, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but a lot of the time that they know it's like Steve said, you know, like I I got a call oh a few years ago, somebody told me about the art the artist was losing a bit of money, so I dropped an on tour, I dropped a note to the artist management and said, Listen, if you want to give me a call, I said, I will save you 10 grand on your next tour in a one call and I won't even charge it. Now, if I'd had uh if I'd had Lewis, it was Lewis Capaldi, I don't mind saying so. If I'd had Lewis sat in front of me and said, Lewis, I know how to save you 10 grand over the next tour, possibly more, he would be all ears. But the management can't really go to Lewis because Lewis is going to say, Well, why didn't you tell me this before? Why don't you know this? And the problem that aging tour managers have is that young management think they're gonna have their job away at times, yeah? So yeah, you must have experienced that, Steve.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, well, look at I I I get really pissed off actually with some of this kind of real chummy relationship between the agent and management. I I just think it's too too chummy at times. I think they they need to keep um be a bit more um forceful and a bit strong with some of their agents, you know. I think the um and I also I just don't also I just find some some artists don't need agents. I mean I just not at all.
SPEAKER_00:Not in that not in this country, Steve, if you're successful. You don't know.
SPEAKER_05:Well Jake, I mean so I work with for many, many years who um, you know, and I know for a fact the agent just picks up the phone to the promoter and says, I need a two-week tour uh every two years, and and that's their job done, and 200,000 pounds in their back pocket, you know. It's um money for all brought to do that, it's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um there are a few other things uh just briefly uh I forgot to say to you, Jake.
SPEAKER_00:Um you might have a ten tunnel story, is it?
SPEAKER_02:Well, that will come in it as well. But do you remember the first I remember the first time I came, I I set eyes on you. And it it might not be I it probably isn't when you think, but the first time I set eyes on you, Jake, was I was I was called to the um Hammersmith Odeon. It was Japan's last the band, Japan's last gig uh in England. Um, and there was a support band called Sandy in the Sunsets, who I was going to, they'd been supporting you around England, if you remember, and I was gonna take that band and be the tour manager. They were gonna go back around England and because they'd had some sort of success as a as a support band. So I was there ready to uh watch them, but I stayed on I watched Japan because I actually quite like that band as well. And um I the first time I laid eyes on you, you're running around trying to get every all the gear to Heathrow to ship funnily enough to the Philippines. No, oh the Philippines, okay. Yeah, I remember that clearly, and you you were on a you know, you were on a bit of a schedule. Um yeah, and I I I I I remember that very clearly. I've obviously just said about when I when I first met Steve, but um the 10 tonner story, just very quickly, and Steve, I don't know how much you work with Jake, and but Jake and Phil, you probably don't know this as well. Jake, when he when he tours, as the tour manager or tour accountant, he's always immaculate. He wears a suit, he wears a tie, he always looks the dog's bollocks, doesn't he, Steve? He does indeed. Yeah, yeah, he's he's he's really well well.
SPEAKER_00:I toned it down a bit for the two.
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah, yeah, for the railway tour, he's he's like this. But anyway, so um uh uh Jake's. I forgot what I was gonna say now. We'll have to edit that out.
SPEAKER_00:Russell, see when you're thinking of that, could I just interject? Because this will interest Steve as well. I've got a pretty good story about that very last show at Hammersmith Audium. Oh, good. It was the last show the band were gonna play in the UK. They were going off, as you say, to the Philippines, then it went to Japan, and then the band were disbanding after Japan because Steve, uh not Steve, David Sylvan did not want to be over commercial, you know. He wanted to do his own thing and run off with Robert Frupp, etc. So there was a lot, as you recall, a lot of excitement around that last show, and everybody wanted to be there, and it was just getting manic in uh in that uh lane at the back of the the audience where the where the backstage area is. Now the guy on the door was the infamous Ron the Dog, who had the Alsatian when he worked for ShowSec. Now, Simon Jazz Summers came out to me and said, Listen, if one more person comes into this backstage area, pass or not, and distracts this band, we're never going to go on time. And I promised David Sylvian for his last show in the UK, we will go on on time. So I went to backdoor and I said, Right, Ron, this is it. Nobody, nobody comes in this back door. Doesn't matter. The crew are all in, we're getting ready to go. Do not let anybody else in this back door before the band go on stage. All right, Jake, all right, that should be fine, no problem. So Gig goes ahead, great night, etc. etc. It's all calming down a little bit. And I go back out to Ron. I said, listen, sorry I had to sort of draw a hard line there. He said, No, mate, I understand, you've got to do your job. I said, um, so you know, was there any sort of late comers? He says, Well, you know, there was this geezer, it turns up in this big flesh Rolls Royce, he said, uh, and he had like his hair was sticking up a bit. And uh I said, uh, I said, sorry, mate, no one's coming in here, no one's coming in here at all, mate. I'm under strict instruction, no one comes in. He and and the guy said I said, Did you have any indication who who the guy was of that? And and Ryan said, Well, he said his name was Bowie or Bowie or David Bowie or so. I just told the fuck off, mate. Nobody's coming in. Oh brilliant. Oh dear. So David Bowie got turned away from Japan's last show.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04:And Steve, how are you working with David Bowie? Bowie.
SPEAKER_05:Amazing. Uh uh incredible. I uh uh probably the highlight of my career. Um, yeah, I was a bit of a role um as a production manager uh again. Um, and I I get the feeling that David was very keen to get a few Brits involved. Uh it was um predominantly an American band and um a few American crew, uh, but I think he was very keen to have some Brits around. So I was doing Peter Gabriel, I was doing an incredible amazing production with Peter Gabriel, and I think um I kind of impressed the whoever it was the promoters in those days, Live Nation or or whatever, whoever it was. Um, and um I got a call from Bill Zisblatt um to uh would I be interested? And yeah, only slightly, um, but I'd have to fly out to New York to to meet David um at the studio, which I did, and I got on really well with him. I sat in with rehearsals and we had a meeting, and he kind of sketched on a on a pad what how he kind of the concept of the show he wanted. Um, and I'd always obviously I was a huge Bowie fan, you know, and all my girlfriends and friends in those early 70s were had him on posters on the wall. So it for me it was a dream come true. But um and it was but I nearly lost the job almost immediately. Um, we were doing production rehearsals at Foray National, and um there was a bit of a cock-up. He wanted um a thrust between the stage and the um and the and and the barrier, and it wasn't anywhere near as big as he was expecting. And um he uh he really tore it. I mean, I I sat down in a meeting room in the catering room, and he was he he caught me off guard. I thought he was just wanted to have a chat about the show, but he, my god, he laid in to me about this thrust, and um there was people around on the table who were all ducking who were uh more responsible for it than me. Of course, I didn't want to be, I didn't want to throw anyone under the bus. I'm not not done, but and I I honestly thought I was um I was gonna be sacked before the first show. It and I think it was 50-50 for a little while. Um uh, but it was the only crosswords we ever had in a in about 18 months. Um and Alan Edwards saved my my job, I think. Alan Edwards was his um, he wasn't the manager. Alan sometimes got mistaken as Bowie's manager, but one thing that Bowie always emphasised is that I don't I don't have management, I have business management, Bills is flat, but I do not have management. In fact, we put a sign on the door, backstage Bowie management, and he said, Steve, do me a favor, take that down. I don't have management. Um Alan Edwards um spoke up for me and and saved my job, and um and I had a great I had an amazing uh 18 months with him before I um there was a bit of a a natural break in the tour, and um I got asked to go back to do Peter Gabriel because it was such a really intense production with Peter Gabriel. They wasn't keen to have anyone else do the tour. I mean, I'm not picking myself up, but it's just natural, you know, to keep the same team. So I ended up taking my Bowie team back to Gabriel and um gave the gig to the wonderful, amazing Bill Libody.
SPEAKER_04:So Peter Gabriel, another artist of mine, which I really admire along with Bowie, Peter Gabriel, tell us about working with him.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, a genius, absolute genius. Um but um had um circus sole people design the show. Um and uh it was um crazy, it was crazy. If if you had it in Vegas or in a fiat over a you know a residency, yeah, take it every night and put it up and take it down. But yeah, he was he was unbelievable. It was an in-the-round show. I think it was called Growing Up, where I don't know if you've seen it when he gets in the Zorb and goes around the stage of the Zorb and bounces. If you ever get a chance, it's on YouTube. We filmed the show uh at Philip Philip Forum or Phila Forum in Milan. That was um the best production I've ever been involved with. That was uh incredible.
SPEAKER_04:Um, we've covered some different areas, but one which I'm sort of interested in is the way things have evolved from both perspectives over your several decades of being in the business, how things have changed. I mean, Jake, you said about not being able to communicate with family um because you were so busy, I suppose you were going around with bags of coins to make a call home or whatever. These days, so easy to communicate. But what were the biggest challenges in the early days and how has things evolved? And see, from a production side, I mean, elaborate shows, things must be a lot easier now with uh digital aspects of uh lighting and uh controlling of the various elements. So, uh Jake, from from your side, first of all, what's been the biggest changes in touring? Is it easier now?
SPEAKER_00:It's more expensive now, that's for sure. I think one of the biggest changes since the early days is, in my opinion, the over-reliance on on screens on stage and at the side of the stage. Um, I was lucky a few months ago, I was over in the States and I went to see a show at the Sphere in Las Vegas. And it was, although it was technically incredible, it was kind of saddening for me because think of your you're inside like a huge, huge, huge football. The whole inside of that surface is a video wall. So when the show uh there was a guy on a country artist I've hardly heard of called Kenny Chesney, but he managed to film two nights at 16,000. But when the show starts, it's almost like you're in a fish tank. You know, you're surrounded by a video wall. There's no sound system, you can't see the sound system. It's designed into the structure of the building, and everybody is looking over their head at what's happening, and nobody is looking at the stage. And I just think it's kind of sad when it's got to that stage, you know. Yeah, great point.
SPEAKER_04:No focal point, the artist, yeah, and you say with looking around. But on a personal level, if you're on tour these days, is it a better lifestyle?
SPEAKER_00:Well, better standard of travel, you know, sophisticated tour buses, you know, you fall onto the bus, you know, at one o'clock in the morning after the you're they're loaded out and the rigging trucks packed, and then somebody drives you right to the door of the next venue you're doing for seven o'clock in the morning. So, and you know, we have professional caterers. I mean, when I first did Madison Square Gardens with Jeff Rotell in 75, they sent the the uh the one of the stage hands across 33rd Street to go get two bag, two buckets of Kentucky fried chicken. There was no rider, you know. I think that's why Ian ended up owning an Iron Doug of Scotland, but you know, it they were my first biggest band, and it was an incredible experience. And I've I've got a lot to thank them for. But you know, uh huge productions, huge productions nowadays. It's almost like they're trying to outdo each other at times.
SPEAKER_04:Competitive element. Um Steve, from your side of things, biggest changes over the last 40-50 years.
SPEAKER_05:You know what? I still I still yearn for the days. I know, I know we all look back in with rose-tinted glasses, but I I mean, I met I was a huge like Dr. Field fan, and kind of seeing a just a four-piece band on the stage at Hammers for Apollo with no just a very average lighting rig, um, obviously no screens, no projection, even in those days, you know. Uh, and for bands like Finn Lizzy at you know, at Lewis Shamodian, and uh I mean I I yearn for those days, and I I agree with Jake. I although I've been involved in some huge LED productions, you know, um, and you know, even like bands like Madness have become so reliant now on content and video screens. Um I just I just I just I agree. I just can't stand seeing the audience constantly looking left and right and forgetting there's a band performing on stage. But yeah, I I agree there's a lot more private, there's a lot more charter jets now these days. Uh that seems to, I wouldn't say it's become affordable, but I think there's so much competition out there with charter companies. You can you can get a decent deal if you've got if you're of a decent standard of a band, that takes so much pressure off you as um as a tour manager. I think one of the one of the most stressful things about tour management, and that's one of the reasons why I can't do it no more, is that check-in situation at airports and you know, especially if you're on a low budget and you've got people in coach and economy, you know, not everyone's in business class. Yeah, but to to put a band on a private plane and to just have the cars meet you on the uh air side on the on the tarmac, oh my god, that's a different world.
SPEAKER_00:They're very expensive, but they're a tour manager's dream, Steve, because your private plane always waits for you, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. You uh you actually you actually dumped me in um, I think it was somewhere like last I don't know where it was. Jake, do you remember that where you left some of the crew behind in in America? It was Houston or somewhere to the next leg on a on a wham tour in America, and there was me and a few others that were left, and we had to get the next plane. I don't know how that happened. It back in the day, it was not as sophisticated either, flying, you know, boarding passes and all the shit that goes on. But I seem to remember that that they the plane was full or over, and but we we we were meant to get on this plane, but we didn't, we couldn't. They closed the door and we were standing there waiting. We had to get on it. They said, Oh, we'll get you on the next plane. I can't remember.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, air airlines knowingly overbook between eight and ten percent just on the hope that certain people are not going to show up, you know, they've been at it for years.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:But they don't usually let you in. I I I just um I think as I've got older, I don't know if you've all find it, but as you get older, do you find that your anxiety levels are so much greater than when they were when you were younger? And I just I remember I just really get I do find I get very, very stressed out on on movement days, you know, especially with flying and that. It's um yeah, I find especially with and that's one thing that has changed years ago. As we all know, we could all swap boarding passes. You didn't really um you could there was hardly any security checks. Now it's you've got to get there at least about three hours before the flight. Um, just oh, it's horrendous. Honestly.
SPEAKER_04:Steve, you're from an environment where you're in control for in your professional life in terms of the shows and everything else. You get to an airport check-in, it's totally out of one's control, one's got control whatsoever. So you go from a control environment which you're controlling to one where you have no say whatsoever.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that's really a good point, actually, Phil, because we all we are all slightly control freaks and that, and we you know, we're so used to being in control, and that's one of the few times when you're not. And I had a situation during the COVID pandemic again where I um um I had a uh a musician in a band who refused to conform to the pandemic, he didn't believe in it. Um, and uh he would uh he said to me, Look, um, I'll get on the flight as long as they won't make me wear a face mask. And um, and I remember at that time it was the law, it was the rules. Lufthansa, I remember getting um getting all the band on the plane, and he walked on without his face mask, and of course they wouldn't let it let him on. And he looked at me and went, I I told you, I told, and I went, Listen, I'm the tour manager of this little band. I fucking I've got no input about Lufthansa and the German government, you know. Get real for Christ's sake, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Um chaps, this has been a fascinating insight from uh your your into your careers and who you work with. Uh I know Russ's got a couple of things to finish off with, but for me, what's been perhaps you know, both of you, your proudest moments or greatest achievements during your careers?
SPEAKER_00:For me, it would obviously have to be the eight years I spent with George Michael, you know, consummate professional, you know, let you get on with it, a nice guy, great musician, not uh no expense spared for you know musicians and the the way he wanted it, and it was very enjoyable.
SPEAKER_04:As a sign of his uh respect for you as a professional uh person in the world.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, George was very clever. George surrounded himself with people who who he could translate what he wanted, and he knew you know Elton John once said something that struck me, and it was during the the era of Miley Cyrus when she was spinning out of control. And Elton John said, the day that you surround yourself with people that do not question what you do is the day you send yourself to a bad place. There's an element of truth in that. But you've got as as as the as both Russell and Steve know, you've just got to pick your time with artists, you know. You've got to tell them what they don't want to hear, and then they think it was their idea.
SPEAKER_05:I've always found Elton very good at I just find him, you know, he's such a drama queen now. I mean, he I've seen him throwing like the rider up, you know, all the sushi up against the wall, stamping his feet, um, uh uh getting back in his car five minutes before the show and saying, take me back to the airport, I'm not fucking playing this. And literally, like Keith Bradley and people like that. Honestly, I mean it's funny, Elton's very good at it, but he's oh my god, he had he had the demons that guy at times, he really did uh on the on the road.
SPEAKER_00:He must have been extremely Zev Isaacs in Israel, uh Steve told me a story where Elton flew in to do two shows. Somebody said the wrong thing to him at the press conference, he leapt over the back of the couch, got a hold of Keith Bradley, went back to the airport and flew back to London. And Zev had to this is two days ahead of time, the first show. Zev had to plead with them to fly back, which thankfully he did a day later.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But the public never see that.
SPEAKER_02:I I know I know Phil's trying to wind up here a bit because we I mean we go on forever, these things, but I I must I must just remind you of a which is one of the I think the funniest things that I was ever involved with, which was after the wham, the final which we did together, Jake. If you remember, Elton took over the whole of the backstage. George and Andrew were in one of your uh cost-saving porter cabins, yeah, quite quite rightly. And um, and Elton brought uh two Winnibagos, he brought a pool, swimming pool, and everything. But he gave he gave the he gave the um uh the boys a gift of a reliant robin. And this reliant robin, I don't know if you remember Jake, it had fur inside, furry dashboard, device, and it had a visor on the front, George for Andrew. Anyway, um uh we we bumped out the gig and you know, loaded out everything. I was back in Ixworth House in the office, um uh like a week or two weeks later, you know, down down in the gig, and I get a call from Brent Council. Uh, is that is that uh the Wham office? I said, Yeah, it is. And he said, Um, uh, we have a reliant robin here. You need to come and collect it. I said, Oh, throw it away, you know? No, no, no, it's not our policy. You have to collect it. So, anyway, we drew lots, and I had there were three people that we drew lots with in the office, and one guy, Robert Baldwin, who was a friend of mine, who was just really a runner, uh, he refused to do it. He lost and he refused to do it. He said, You can sack me, you can do whatever. I am not driving a reliant robin because he was a petrol head. So I get on the tube, I go up to Brent, I said, I'll do it. I go up to Wembley Stadium, I get I get the keys to this reliant Robin. It's a baking hot day in July or whatever it was, and I start this thing up and it's rocking and smoking, and I had to have the windows open, otherwise, I would have died from the fumes. And I drive out of up Wembley Way, I drive out uh into I go to the first set of lights, and I'm sitting there with my arm out the window with this furry dice, George for Andrew, everything, and the the thing smoking away, and this lorry pulled up, and the window went the window was down anyway. And the guy leant out with all big tatters, and he goes, You wanna and drove because he thought he thought I was like thinking I was really cool. But I had to drive a cunky thing across London, and and I remember saying to you, Jake, what do I do with it? He said, I'll just park it, we'll we'll auction it or something. And I never did know whether they auctioned it. I put it in the underground car park there or something. Thank you, Olton.
SPEAKER_04:Uh Alan and John. Well, guys, thank you very much indeed. Uh, I've really enjoyed that's an amazing insights into uh your two careers and life on the road. And uh yeah, thank you very much indeed. Okay, thank you very much. Cheers. See you soon. Sorry to keep you and enjoy it's great. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for inviting me. Thank you very much, guys. And Russ, spill the beans. Who we got up uh on the next episode of It's Only Rock and Roll.
SPEAKER_02:Well, um, we've got Stan Urban, uh, who is a rock and roll legend at 81, still gigging, rock and roll pianist and singer, songwriter. Um played in Chuck Berry's band back in the day. Uh does all the rock and roll numbers. He actually performed here in the Philippines uh last uh summer, um, and he's constantly gigging around Europe, um doing TV shows and stuff like that. He's gonna come on and he's gonna be coming to us live from uh a very interesting place in Denmark where a guy called Henrik has brought him on it brought it on himself to build an absolute replica of Braceland, yes, Elvis' house. So there, and he's got lots of memorabilia, and I think we'll um uh we'll be looking at some of that as well. So very interesting.
SPEAKER_04:Looking forward to that very much indeed, and don't forget uh it's only rock and roll available on all major podcast channels from uh Amazon, Spotify, Deezer, and also on YouTube. See you soon.
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