Episode 6: The Alchemy of Education with Tracey Milligan, MD, MS

A lifelong passion for education never dies if you stay open and curious. Tracey A. Milligan, MD, MS, is an epileptologist and general neurologist, distinguished clinician educator, and Professor and Chair of the Department of Neurology at New York Medical College and Westchester Medical Center Health Network. Dr. Milligan has held every educational leadership role from Clerkship Director, to Program Director, and Vice Chair of Education in her long and storied career. She is this year's recipient of the American Academy of Neurology's AB Baker Lifetime Achievement Award, the highest honor bestowed annually upon a neurology educator. Hear from Tracey as she shares the power of curiosity, creating safe and psychologically safe learning environments, and the importance of finding one's passion -- so that having fun becomes the engine for perseverance.

And for those attending in person, don't miss Dr. Milligan's keynote address and the acceptance of her award on Monday, April 20, 2026 at 11:30 am at AANAM.

Neuropraxis: The Neurology Educator's Podcast is not recorded as an official podcast of any institution or organization. The views and opinions are those of the individual speakers themselves. Music from Pixabay. Cover art by Carolin Wollny. Editing by Valeria Roldan. New episodes drop first Monday of the month!

Ideas, suggestions, questions? Contact us at neuropraxispodcast@gmail.com. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hello and welcome to Neuropraxis, a podcast for clinician educators and trainees passionate about neurology education. I'm your host, Gleena Gaeman. I'm a neurologist and medical educator. On the Neuropraxis Podcast, we turn our attention to neurology education. We discuss the latest topics in education literature, meet the innovators shaping the future of neurology education, and hear about the career journeys of other educators in neurology. Whether you're building a career in medical education or looking for inspiration in your teaching, you're part of our community. So let's reflect and grow together as we blend the art and science of neurology education and put theory into praxis. Today I speak with Tracy A. Milligan, a distinguished clinician and educator who serves as professor and chair of the Department of Neurology at New York Medical College and Westchester Medical Center Health Network. We talk about the critical role of curiosity in learning and teaching, how to create a psychologically safe and welcoming learning environment, the neurology educator family treat, and what the exciting future of neurology education holds for all of us. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Neuropraxis Podcast. I'm your host, Galena Gekman, and I am here today joined by a very, very special guest, one of my lifetime neurology education mentors and someone who has mentored just fields and generations of neurology educators, Tracy Milligan. Welcome, Tracy.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Thank you, Galena. Thank you for the invitation to be here. And it's just absolutely my pleasure to be here with one of my star mentees.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Well, thank you, Tracy. You know, I think everyone always says you need someone who believes in you, and you've always been that for me. So I want to thank you again.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

You're a very believable person.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

So, Tracy, as we were preparing to have this conversation, I actually wanted to go back and hear a little bit about kind of all the things that you've done in your life. And I was reading your biography, and it's a long and extensive and extremely um uh extremely reputable one. And I think it might be actually helpful for our audience to hear a little bit of the various things that you've done just to get a sense of what a lifetime's contribution to neurology education looks like. So if you'll um bear with me, I want to read a little bit of the bio for everyone to hear. But Dr. Tracy Milligan is a distinguished clinician, general neurologist, and epilepsy specialist who now serves as professor and chair of the Department of Neurology at New York Medical College and Westchester Medical Center Health Network. Prior to joining NYMC, Dr. Milligan was associate professor at Harvard Medical School and Vice Chair for Education in the Department of Neurology at Brigham Women's Hospital. She received her undergraduate degree in communication disorders from the University of New Mexico and was a graduate and a graduate degree in speech language pathology from Emerson College. She did her medical training at Albert Einstein College of Medicine, her internship at Beth Israel Hospital, residency training in neurology at the Harvard Neurology Residency Program, and fellowship training also at Bringham Women's Hospital in clinical neurophysiology and epilepsy. She has additional training in physician leadership at Harvard Business School and Medical Education at Harvard Medical School. She's received numerous awards throughout her career for her work, and we'll get into these, some of these later, but notably one of the highest uh awards in excellence at Harvard Medical School in teaching.

unknown 4:24

Dr.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Milligan focuses her research now on best practices in medical education and improving care for patients with epilepsy, and has served on the board of directors of the Epilepsy Foundation of New England and is chair of the professional advisory board. And although that's an extensive uh bio, what we didn't include was your work as clerkship director and program director and program director now at NYMC. So so many more roles there that I think really paint what a path in education might look like. So I wanted to go back to the beginning and then we'll maybe hop kind of stones along the way through each of these elements and face over care, but let's go back to the beginning, Tracy. Tell us how you first got interested in building education into your work within neurology.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Thank you. Thank you so much, Galena. And I first became interested in neurology education when I was a neurology resident. And it was then that I started teaching neuroanatomy at Harvard Medical School. I would go to the neuroanatomy lab every week and try to stay just a tiny bit ahead of the medical students as I was learning while I was trying to teach them too. And it was during that time where I really learned an important lesson. One of the best ways to understand something deeply was to teach it to others. And that through teaching, you also learned at a deeper level as an educator and made a meaningful contribution to others as well.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

It's wonderful that you share it starts so early. We've heard from many others who say the same thing that you know you should just get involved as soon as you're able, whether as a resident, a fellow, or even a medical student. And some people go and try it and they don't like it as much, and some people go and they do like it and they stay. So can you take us back to what about teaching was it that you really liked that kept you going after that first experience?

SPEAKER_01 6:26

When you teach somebody something and you see them learn it and make that that transition, um, it's a really joyful experience. So I didn't know anything about how to teach when I started, but I did really enjoy helping other people learn and learn something so meaningful. And that's one of the things that I really enjoy about medical education. When we teach trainees and other learners about something, it's so impactful in such a purposeful and meaningful way in helping us take care of patients better.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

It is really rewarding when you see a student implement something that you've taught them, whether it's in their next interview or in the next time they do the exam. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

I agree with you completely. And what is also fun is when they forget that it was ever something they learned. When they say when they teach it and they don't even remember you taught it to them, they just own it so much. It's just part of who they are.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Can you give an example of that?

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Sometimes I have passed on certain pearls or certain ways of teaching, and I can tell when I hear somebody pass it on to the next person that they don't remember that I'm the one who taught it. And then I know that that teaching really just became part of who they are, not something, not a lesson they had learned from somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Well, it's such an interesting point that you make because I still remember being the junior resident presenting to you as my attending on a weekend. We had a patient with a cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, and you gave me a little pearl. And every time I teach that pearl, I still have a vision of you in my mind and where you were sitting in the workroom. So you I can just I can verify that that in fact happens, the passing along of the knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

It may be that the teacher doesn't remember the pearl anymore.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Yeah, so one of the two will forget. What are some of the other key attributes that you think make a good teacher in neurology, Tracy? It sounds like you know, staying a step ahead of the learners, um, kind of taking their perspective. Uh, what else makes a good teacher?

SPEAKER_01 8:45

I think um passing on that curiosity is really the foundation to learning and also to being a really great physician, too. Number one is the curiosity. And um, to be curious in the person you're taking care of, to be curious in the field itself, and that's more important than knowing the answer. So that's something that I really try to emphasize when I'm teaching is that it's important to be curious and also to have a psychologically safe environment so that people can make observations to really focus on the patient. And that's hard to do when you're feeling really anxious. So I would say those three things the curiosity, focus on the patient, and then the psychologically safe environment.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

I'm actually so glad that you brought up that last point. It's like you were anticipating, but I was gonna say, I think one thing you do really well, you've role-modeled for myself and others, and you do it quite purposefully, is in fact to create that safe, really engaging learning environment. And I've seen you do this at the level of a clinical team. I've also seen you do it at the level of a research project, for example, or even in a larger setting, like a across the department of neurology. And I'm curious, can you pull the curtain a little bit behind the scenes? How does one do this?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Uh to be in a psychologically safe environment, I think it means that you can be yourself, that you can really share your thoughts and your interests and your whole self in the environment. And that's really important for learning. How to do that? I try to ask questions that pertain to curiosity instead of medical knowledge because everybody can contribute in that way. What have they observed? What do they think about a topic? And then to when there's a response to elaborate on that response, even if the response seems way off the mark, it's really it's really interesting to learn why the person said that. And sometimes there's a lot of insights that I hadn't even considered, that they're just looking at the situation from a different direction. So I think it's role modeling that curiosity and encouraging others to be curious.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Yeah, I was just gonna say it sounds like it's going back to curiosity again. You know, you hear something even if it's out of left field, and rather than saying, nope, that's not the right answer. That's not the answer I had in mind, asking, oh, how did you get at that, or how are you connecting those two things?

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Those have been some of the times when I've I've learned the most about things that I didn't even know I didn't know about, right? A blind spot, somebody makes a contribution and it sounds completely from left field, but then when you learn more about it, you can see that they have an experience that I don't have, and then I get to learn through them.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Wow. You mentioned that starting out, you didn't initially have formal training in how to teach. And I'm curious, is that something that you then took courses for or developed a little bit more purposefully? Can you share with us how that evolved over the course of your career?

SPEAKER_01 12:00

I did take courses. I had a fellowship in medical education at Harvard Medical School. I went through the Harvard Macy program in medical education, and those were two formalized programs. One of the things that I learned in both of those programs that is so pertinent is adult learning theory. It's something that we all know, but having it taught and being able to say that adults learn when they think it's important to learn and they learn the way they want to learn, you realize that as a teacher, you're not the one in control. The learner is the one in control. And that makes it especially interesting because you have to teach in a different way the same thing because your learners are all very different people.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

It's a foundational point, I think, for those who are listening and may not be as familiar. So some of the principles in adult learning theory, as you mentioned, one is like relevance. You have to persuade the individual that this is relevant to what they're gonna be doing. Another point is that self-directed nature that they're gonna be able to determine how they structure their own learning. Another point I always think about is that there has to be some action, um, ideally problem solving, rather than you know, telling them the answer to memorize, there has to be like a problem you put in front of them and give them a chance to practice it. And then it's making the learning as close to the application that they're gonna have eventually. So can you give us some examples, Tracy, of how that's changed the type of teaching that you do just to illustrate for listeners like how it might how they might adjust what they're doing today?

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Yes, I will. I think as you were you were so well describing adult learning theory, I thought it's really a lot like giving advice. And and have you had the experience of saying to somebody, would you like some advice? It's completely different than when they come to you and say, I'd like your advice. So if you just substitute the word learning or teaching for advice, you'll see that adult learners they learn best when they come to the situation or they come to their teacher and say, I'd like to learn about this. Why is this? And then you feed into it. And sometimes we can create that. Simulation is a great way to create that um activation in wanting to learn something, is to put your learners in a simulated session and then they see the re the reality of it, they're immersed in that and come to learning. It could be at the bedside in the patient that they're taking care of, or through a case-based discussion where you try to again bring that um pertinence um to the situation.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

You gave us some really good examples of what that looks like in learning one-to-one. You've also had the opportunity to serve as an education leader. And what I mean by that is having a role, for example, as a clerkship director who's organizing learning for students, or as a residency program director who's organizing learning for residents. And I'm curious if you can talk a little bit about how you translate that idea of teaching one-to-one to maybe designing curricula or designing programs that can support adult learning for our trainees.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

The ability to choose something about how you're learning is really important. And so when I was clerkship director, I changed the neurology clerkship so that the students had options. And it was the first time, for example, that the clerkship students could choose as one of their options of doing a rotation in pediatric neurology. I learned that from one of my mentors who taught me that that was a way to also teach education. So the ability to choose for the future pediatrician that might be more meaningful than rotating in the neuro ICU, maybe. The same in residency education, having time to select specific electives to have paths in the and then residency. We have a number of different um paths of areas of focus that the residents can engage in. And elective time, I think, is really important. At the same time, there's that foundation that everybody needs to make sure that they get to be really um competent and outstanding physician.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Tracy, you're clearly illustrating your having studied adult learning theory and other education theories. I'm gonna illustrate for our listeners in a little moment of didactic. This is a I'm gonna give you advice session, they may have not wanted this teaching, but you're really speaking about self-determination theory. So that's another great theory that I love for designing curricula, and it's this idea that how can we bolster intrinsic motivation in our adult learners? And in self-determination theory, there's three elements. And the first, really three psychological needs that have to be met. The first is agency or the ability to choose, and the second is competence or a foundational level of kind of belief in your ability to perform. And the last is relatedness, which is the opportunity to create relationships in learning. And I think you know, you you really seem to meant do that implicitly when you're as a clerkship director or someone having that conversation around choice or having the conversation about role modeling. But I love that you're integrating this theory into the way that you've designed curricula.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Well, thank you for educating all of us, Galita, um, on the theories that uh underlie a lot of what we do. I'll just add that another part I think about being an educator is reflection and reflection on yourself. I I am, I always say I'm tired of learning through my mistakes. But they do, they do really give great learning, great ways to improve is to reflect on things and how they went and how they could have gone better. And so a lot of what I do and um it seems to go well, is based on things that didn't go well in the past and reflecting on that.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

That's a great lesson, a lesson of humility and also of a commitment to self-improvement for yourself and for others.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

That's part of being an educator.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Tracy, can you talk a little bit more about education leadership beyond curriculum design? Because I I know I think a lot of people start out loving to teach, and then this this natural progression in that we tend to see in careers of moving kind of to higher leadership positions. So I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about what that experience was like for you. How did you prepare for or train for these roles, or I guess learn from the mistakes from one to the next? And then how did you know when it was time to transition between roles in your career?

SPEAKER_01 19:25

I have had different transition and different education roles, and I remember when I became program director and I was advised to give up being clerkship director. And I really didn't want to do that, but it was absolutely the right decision to make that transition. And so every education role that I've had, I have to say I've really enjoyed doing, but the transition has been exciting to go on to something new, to stretch my skills, to take the good things I've learned and leave behind the mistakes on to the next area of growth. And that step into the unknown and to a new role that is still centered around things that I enjoy doing, and I feel like I can take the lessons I've learned from previous roles has been a really exciting part of my career.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Can you give us any specific examples that stand out in the transition from clerkship director to program director? Or I know after program director you went on to a vice chair role and then ultimately to chair. Those are big steps along the way.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

I think the biggest, the biggest thing I learned that prepared me for being chair was everything I learned as being program director. There are so many similarities to mentoring a department, a faculty, to growing between really having a diverse group of people that you're working with, a shared mission, shared goals, a lot of different interests, um, and a lot of similar problems that come up. Being program director was great training to being chair.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

What's your advice for those who are maybe just starting out in the training and that still feels like many years away and a little bit opaque of how you actually get down that path? What's your advice for those who think they might see themselves as a future education leader but are still some years away from that?

SPEAKER_01 21:30

And thinking about your career in medical education, I think it can also be more broadly applied to any specific career. It's really loving what you do. If you look at people who are successful, whether that's in clinical care in one specific area or education or research, the people who have a passion who really find what they're doing fun and find meaning in what they're doing, as long as they keep doing that, you're After year, you get more experience, you get more opportunities, and it all seems to happen naturally. And I've seen that happen for so many people that I've mentored and I've been fortunate to see them back at the very beginning and keeping that fun, that interest, that passion and focus on doing something that you find meaningful. And I know for many of your listeners, like you, that passion is education. So you just keep doing it. And um and you'll be successful.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Have there been any moments along the way that stand out as particular challenges that you faced or obstacles and and how you navigated those? I know our listeners always love to hear kind of the realities of the troubles in life or the troubles at work and be inspired by the ways our uh the people we're hearing from have navigated them.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

I think one of the biggest problems is being too busy. And that was really it was a lot harder having little kids, uh, being, you know, actively raising children and then working in academics and you know, trying to balance other things in my life, my relationship, my children, my job. It still stays the case, and I'm sure many of your listeners are going through the same thing, but sometimes it it really does feel impossible. It really does feel impossible. And seeking out a group of people that you can be friends with, that you can share your struggles with, that help you say, you know, you can do it, you can do it, keep going. That's really important. Uh and and one thing I do want to share with the listeners is that it is really hard. And uh my entire family knows this about me. I'll say to them, I did this to myself. What did I do? I said yes again, and now I have this deadline or this other thing to do. And they're so supportive, and they remind me that I really love it and it's gonna turn out okay, and get through this period of stress of something yet again. I said yes to that seems overwhelming in the moment, but with enough encouragement around you, you can get through to the to the next one.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

I love that idea. Is we sometimes talk about, you know, you're like your future self will will thank you, um, and then like your past self made the decision. So as long as you can find some agreement between past, present, and future, um, then maybe that's that's the way to go.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah, that's it, that's a good way of thinking of it, Golita.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Teresa, you mentioned that you have to find the people who can support you, uh, the people whom you can say, I'm not sure, and they'll say, keep going. Um, who have been the mentors in your life uh who've been able to do that for you?

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Oh, so many different mentors. And uh I think that one of the things is this group of mentors in medical education, and going to the more formal education, medical education programs, that's one thing that did for me is introduced me to a whole peer group of people interested in the same thing. The same thing happened at the American Academy of Neurology, and you and I are duplicating that through the education room at AAN. So you can go to a room at the annual meeting and be surrounded by other people who find the same things rewarding and interesting. Um, my specific mentors, I'll say uh I've had again a series of them. Marty Samuels was the best neurology educator I have ever seen in my whole career. And I remember telling him that even when I was a resident, I said to him, You are the best teacher of neurology I have ever seen before. I want to keep working with you. And I did work with him for over 20 years. And then I'll also mention Barbara Doretsky, who I I also worked with as my epilepsy division chief. And she's the one who said to me when I was a fellow, she said, as you're looking for your first job, mention to them that you want to be clerkship director because you look like you always really enjoy medical education. And I remember saying to her, I can't ask for that. I'm a coming in as a junior faculty member. But she said, Yes, ask for it. And I did, and that's what happened. I in my first job as a faculty member, I was the associate clerkship director. And without that mentorship, without that advice, I wouldn't have done it. And that I think is one of the things that really great mentors do for us is they see things that we don't see in ourselves and they help propel us forward to the goals that we are not necessarily able to articulate.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

I'm so glad that you shared those examples. I think many people initially are drawn to someone who's more of, as you said, a role model. Maybe someone you even from afar look at how they perform and you want to do the same. Marty Samuels is that for so many of us, including for people who've never met him in person. They still know his dizziness tapes and his lectures. And then yet there's this other role, as you said, that Dr. Dretsky played for you, which is navigating in a way the curr the career journey, navigating a way to be successful, to retain the things that you want in your life and to allow you to do the things that you want to do. So I love that you've pointed out kind of the difference between a role model and kind of that that that mentorship piece.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah, well, Galena, you have been a mentor to me too. And I think that's one of the things that we just surround ourselves with people who help us in different ways. And it's also back and forth. It's also so much the relationships that we have around us. And to see what you're doing with this podcast and the many areas of medical education you're involved in, they're inspiring. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Thank you, Tracy. It's right back at you. As I said at the start, you have been a mentor to so many. There's generations of neurologists around the country that cite the influence that you've had on their career. And I think not just in teaching, but in that second piece of really helping them develop to their full potential. And so I know you've started to share a little bit of your mentoring magic secrets, but I'm wondering if you could speak just a little bit more of advice that you have for mentors out there who are seeking to do a better job of finding helping their mentees reach the potential, and for and also I guess if any advice for mentees of how they can kind of activate that mentorship.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

I really enjoy mentorship. It's it's really interesting. I think a lot of people do find that being a mentor interesting, it's a different way of approaching helping somebody else. And sometimes that mentorship is helping other people find what their goals are. And sometimes they're able to articulate their goals, and you're trying to help them get that get to that goal more efficiently. Um and so some of it some is helping people see their blind spots and and guiding them, building confidence, uh creating opportunities for other people. And to be a good mentee in that relationship, I think again it comes down to that psychological safety. You have to be able to go to your mentor and to express yourself, to be able to share what is in your head so that they can help guide you and to share what you're looking for from that mentoring relationship. Establishing those ground rules around communication and making sure you have found the right mentor for you is really important in going into that relationship. And sometimes I think actually all the time, having multiple mentors. It's not just one mentor. You might have a one mentor that's great for one particular thing, but finding that other network of mentors around you. Also to the to the people who are looking for a mentor, don't be shy about it. I remember being so impressed with one of my co-faculty members who joined the faculty, moved across country, who's brand new, and he said, I just made an appointment with the chair of psychiatry to ask him to be my mentor. I said, Wow, I never thought of that, knocking on somebody's door and saying, Would you be my mentor? But when I moved from Boston to New York, I did exactly that. And I contacted um Orley Avitzer, who at the time was the president of the AAN, and I said, Orly, would you be my mentor? Because I learned from my friend, and so she and I, for the past almost five years, every month, we meet on the banks of the Hudson River for mentoring.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Wow. Tracy, what a story. I think people can take that advice and act on it today. But what I love about it, in addition to the practicalities of how to get a mentor, which is you gotta ask for it, is just the illustration that you know, even at this stage, you're still looking, seeking for mentorship, still seeking improvement and support, and really illustrating that we need that all along our career, not just at the start, but at every stage.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

We need other people. We need other people in our lives. And so having those people around you, right? We're defined by those five closest people around us. That's really important.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

And I think the fact that you've really made the time for it, that really speaks to the prioritization as well. But you know, like come rain or high water in this case, very relevant since you're on the banks of the Hudson. You're still meeting together.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

You know, time is really tough. It's really hard to find time for the things that maybe are most important to us. So I find that just scheduling that in the calendar is really helpful. So every time we meet, before we say goodbye, we schedule our next time.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Another piece of good advice. So I actually wanted to transition a little bit and um reveal to our listeners, um, if they haven't seen already, some extremely exciting and good news that we heard this year, and that is that the AAN, American Academy of Neurology Awards for 2026, have been announced. They're now public, and you were named this year the A. B. Baker Award winner for the Lifetime Achievement in Neurology Education. This is a highly prestigious award. It recognizes educators who've had significant career-long achievements and contributions in neurology education locally, regionally, nationally, internationally. So, Tracy, huge, huge congratulations to you. I think no one will be surprised to see your name up on the big board. I hope many of us will be able to join us and hear you speak. Huge congratulations to you.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Galena. Um, I can't even tell you just how honored and grateful I am to be receiving this award. And I really look at it as receiving the award for all educators and on behalf of neurology education. I am so proud that the AAN has awards for educators in neurology, including this Lifetime Achievement Award. And when I think back to the many years I've gone to AAN, I always remember the person who won this award. Many of them have been my mentors. Every single one since I started going to AAN in 2000. Every single one of the award winners has been a mentor of mine. And so to be up there receiving it on behalf of all of us, I am just so completely humbled. But I will I will take it on behalf of all of us.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Well, you uh you're so you're so kind and generous, and then and just once again role modeling that idea of a community that we're we all need people and we're all in it together. And I just wanted to dive a little further into you know, you anticipate my questions around how it feels to receive the word the award and and how you're thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Well, there's something about receiving a lifetime achievement award that makes you reflect back on life. And um, so I will just reflect back on being a neurology educator and say that I have definitely learned more than I've taught. Um and one of those things, when you learn to be a better physician and learn to be a better educator, you're learning through your patients and through your learners. And um and doing something that's really meaningful. So I'm I'm grateful.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

And you highlighted this idea that we're recognizing your work individually, and as much as you're gonna try to try to spread the love, it is your your work too, Tracy, but also the importance of recognizing and valuing educators. What do you what do you think that says at the level of having an award nationally and and any any thoughts about that?

SPEAKER_01 36:32

It's really important. Neurology education is how we keep the field alive and move it forward. That's the way we do it. So we we need to award the educators and acknowledge them. They're really, really important.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

You're gonna be giving a talk. Uh I saw the title is the Neurology Family Tree and Helping Others Thrive. So for anyone who's gonna be at AN, um, hopefully they'll join us on April 20th to hear you and uh receive the award and give your talk. And I'm wondering if you could give us a little preview.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Well, preview the neurology family tree, there's actually a neurotree.com where you can register yourself and where you belong in the neurology family tree. So neurology is really a legacy. It's a field, we do the same neurologic exam as when physicians first started doing the neurologic exam. And we learn that from our own mentors and pass that on to others. So the neurology family tree is symbolic for the field and how we learn, but also how we grow others, and that's something that I've always really enjoyed.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

I really like that analogy for so many reasons. I mean, there's a little bit of that element of you know, like passing along the genetics or the DNA or the core, and then having variations at each level and the things that stick, you know. This right now it's AI, we'll see how much that sticks like a generation ago, maybe was the introduction of other technologies or other techniques or new imaging findings. I remember talking with Dr. Marty Samuels about his career and the fact that the MRI was introduced after he was faculty. You know, this intro, this idea that we're gonna have to keep learning and that that's part of what we're demonstrating here, but that we can see how every generation has its new elements to teach, new elements to learn, new elements to teach.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Yes, thank you, Kalina. And I also think when we think about the fruits of our labor, the literal, you know, symbolic fruits and our learners, and uh Marty Samuel's legacy is in those that he taught. And not only do I think about that legacy building, but also when we teach neurology, we're teaching people how to take better care of patients. And so there's that magnification of the good that we do to help somebody else take care of many other people in a better way.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Reaching so much more, so many more patients that you could as a clinician on your own. Exactly. Well, I think you taught me, speaking of things, I will give you credit for this one. I won't forget who taught me. You said you said this a good, you know, a good um a good explanation for a complex topic often begins with a great metaphor. And so I'm just gonna compliment you on the metaphor of the educational family tree and the fruits that we bear and the ultimate apple pie that we can all share if we if we pick those fruits.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Yes, I am a fan of apple pies.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

So as we kind of um head towards closing out uh soon, I just wanted to revisit something that you said earlier that you've really learned more than you've taught, which is such a beautiful statement and maybe a great um you know, proxy measure of how how we're doing as a curious educator. But I'm curious, uh Tracy, if there's any other important lessons that you've learned about education throughout your long career that you're reflecting on now and want to pass along.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Being an educator really allows you to process your own mistakes. And so I will I remember seeing a patient doing bedside rounding and bedside teaching with a patient. And after we were completing our examination, he turned to me and he said, I want you to stay, I want to talk to you. And I said, Whoa, we're all one team, you can share whatever you want with the whole team. He said, No, I want to talk to you. And so I sent the team out of the room. He said, I want you to sit down. And this brilliant professor from MIT told me how I had humiliated him during the mental status exam by asking him questions that were difficult for him to answer. Our basic mental status examination. And it was really hard to sit there. First of all, he had a very professorial tone, and I was sitting there, and he was, I think, above me in eye level. And um, boy, he knew how to teach in that way. And so I felt all of those emotions and um and had to get through the defensiveness too. And with all of those really um challenging emotions that I was processing as he was teaching me something, I said, Well, this is a great thing that I can share with my team. This is some extra learning that I can share with them what this experience was like to try to maybe they saw it and I didn't, but I don't think any of us saw it. That I can share with them how to recognize the patient perspective and not to lose sight of that. And in the end, it turned out that finding that he had mental status abnormalities, we were the first team of physicians to discover that. It led to the discovery that he did have an infection and encephalitis that needed treatment, and it changed his outcome. So that part was important, but remembering that to treat the patient as a person, I learned from him, and it was a really hard lesson. I didn't want to learn. I learned from my mistakes, but I was able to share that and help others, and hopefully they remember that experience too. So being an educator means that when you make mistakes in patient care, if you reflect on them, you can actually use those and process through them to help teach others, and it makes the mistakes a little easier to process.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Thank you for sharing that experience. The both the visceral feeling, this the the angle of the eyes. You still remember, I can just picture myself sitting in your spot, like shrinking with every word that he says back. And and the fact that you're right that you know, life throws us opportunities, and sometimes um they're the wins that you want to share, and sometimes they're like the loads that you want to share. But um both of those are opportunities to teach and to to share with others. I really like that idea is that you can process and make something of that that that mistake or that gap or that. um error that you made and use that to kind of make make the bet the future better.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Yes, yeah. That that is a um that is a an important thing that all of us are grappling with as physicians is when we do make mistakes, how to process those in um in a helpful way. And and so thinking about those with the mindset of an educator and hopefully helping others avoid those mistakes is really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

I think what you're saying, let me try to see if I get this analogy right is that education is a kind of alchemy that can turn our difficult rocks into teaching gold.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Exactly. Exactly Tracy as you look to the future of neurology education what are you most excited about or hopeful about there's two things number one is the education room at the American Academy of Neurology annual meeting which you and I helped found and are really putting a lot of energy into creating a space a psychologically safe space with lots of active learning where educators can go teach, learn and create community and that's really exciting. I think that's really meaningful. The second is the use of AI in neurology education. I think of AI as an accelerant and so it can accelerate good things that we're doing. It can teach us ways of really transmitting our knowledge globally to people of all different backgrounds and also as a way to give feedback to track data to allow us to hopefully help people become better physicians.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

So I'm really excited about those areas I love that I'm gonna say that from now on instead of artificial intelligence I'm gonna say AI stands for accelerated improvement if used right if used right if used right a big star caveat there but yeah but yeah I agree with you I think there's a lot of potential there is there definitely is what about uh you personally Tracy what's next for you um next is the American Academy of Neurology annual meeting with our education room and all the great programming happening there and this Friday is match day which I call the Program Director's Christmas because we have so many presents they're all great we just don't know what's in the box and we get to find out on Friday match day so it's very exciting. Oh I love that I mean it speaks to just the the attitude you always have about curiosity and gratitude in the face of the unknown just being sure that things are going to work out and being excited about what you're gonna get to not only who you're gonna get to teach but as you said the twice more that you're gonna learn from them.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

And it's so rewarding to see people as they're entering the field and I really enjoy that seeing how much interest there is in the field of neurology and all of the the newest neurologists entering.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

Well Tracy we're about at time is there any final words that you wanted to share anything else that's coming to mind now any final messages from Dr. Milligan to those listening?

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Well I'll just add that I think one of the really interesting things about neurology education in this day and age are all the modalities where you can access learning like you can go to traditional textbook to videos to social media and to podcasts. So congratulations to you on your podcast and thank you for asking me to be part of it.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Thank you Tracy this has been um I'll just you know I'll be transparent this has been a learning opportunity for me learning with each one of hopefully not making too many mistakes but certainly hoping to learn from them and just enjoying the the fun and the curiosity of learning from so many others who make up the network that is our field and that is the the family tree of the neurology education.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

Thank you Glenna was a lot of fun for me too thanks Tracy thanks so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Thank you Neuropraxis the Neurology Educators podcast was created and produced by Gelena Gayman. It is not recorded as an official podcast of any institution or organization. The views and opinions are those of the individual speakers themselves. Music from Pixabay cover art by Carolyn Folney Editing by Valeria Rowland want more content like this? Be sure to subscribe to the Neuropraxis Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Have questions, comments, or suggestions for other podcast episodes contact us at Neuropraxispodcast at gmail dot com. Tell your friends and spread the word. Thanks for joining us