Episode #16, Mark Rudin

In this episode, Mark Rudin shares his story and how he has become a world class producer and horn section specialist.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Modern Trumpeter Podcast. You may not have heard of our guest this week, but you certainly have heard him and his playing. Please let me introduce you to Mark Rudin. Mark Rudin is a trumpet player and multi-instrumentalist based out of Salt Lake City, Utah. Originally from Los Angeles, California, Mark has had a wide and versatile career within the music industry, much of which we will cover in today's episode. He has had extensive experience with a recording studio, particularly doing horn sessions out of his home studio. Most recently, he has recorded on Olivia Dean's album Art of Loving. He has also recorded horns for Sabrina Carpenter's most recent single, Tears, and has also recorded for artists such as Megan Trainer, Beanie, Lennon Stella, Amber Mark, and many more. He also recently recorded a track for the brand new Mario Galaxy movie. And if you are new to the podcast, comment your favorite part of the interview below. And if you know another trumpet player who would be interested in the podcast, please share it with him. In addition to this podcast, we are writing a book called The Modern Trumpeter, A Guide to Building a Versatile and Successful Career. This book will be available by the end of the year and covers the ins and outs of how to make it as a trumpet player in this day and age. With insights and quotes from over 50 professional trumpet players in the industry, their real-world experience and advice can help you know what you need to do to be to get your music career to become a reality. Now, here is my interview with Mark Rudin. Hey everybody, welcome back again to the Modern Trumpeter Podcast. Today we are speaking with uh Trumpet player Mark Rudin. Mark, thank you so much for being with us today. I'm stoked to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm I'm really looking forward to hearing uh about your story and like what you've been you've done. I've I've seen a little bit of uh online and as we've talked about about what you do and whatnot, but I'm excited to really dive into that. But first off, can you tell us how you got started in music, how you got started in the trumpet, and at what point in your life you're like, I want to pursue this.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Yeah. Um, somehow I was just drawn to playing a wind instrument. I think the moment was the 1989 Grammys where Kenny G was playing um on them. I mean, the Grammys used to be such an awesome show. There would be like Went Marcellus was on it that year, I think, or the year before, too. And so you were exposed to that stuff on TV, like really cool. And I don't know, I think it was like Kenny G playing with Michael Bolton and uh and then Lisa Simpson, probably the other biggest like thing, like just seeing her playing the the Barry Sacks or something. So I wanted to play the sax. And this was probably you know a year or two before you go into beginning band, and so I knew that was coming, sixth grade beginning band, and uh got in. Uh, of course, you know, signed up for for band, and and it seemed like everybody wanted to play the sacks, so I just kind of like was like, you know, it'll be easier if I just say I'll play the trumpet. I'll let I and I somehow in my head I I knew I'll just learn the sacks later. Um and so I don't know how I had that like insight so young, but I did, you know, and I was like, I could I you know that's something we'll we'll get into as a multi-instrumentalist, but I always kind of like knew in my head that I could learn other instruments, but I wanted to play I thought trumpet was was cool, you know. It was also like not everybody was lined up to to play it like they were with the saxophones.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Yeah, so so I just I just went with it. And where I grew up in Southern California, I went to Agora High and just so happened to have like an amazing band director there, and he put together uh what's still like a pretty well-known band program these days. It's grown incredibly. They have like three jazz band classes alone, you know. And so, you know, I was we were there was a lot of like people who were serious about doing music that I came up with just in high school alone. Yeah, that's how I got started.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Yeah, wow, exact no trumpet first, and then uh was there any point in oh go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Well, I was gonna say trumpet. So what happened was I I started playing trumpet and then I started learning a little piano on my own, a little keyboard. Um, and right around when I got into high school, I'd get together with friends and and just jam. We would just not even jazz, you know, just like just trying to jam funky jams and whatever, you know, psychedelics. And and I'd have my trumpet and I very quickly, and also in jazz, you know, I whenever I'd play like in a quartet or a quintet or something, there was just something about playing the trumpet, playing the head, playing a solo, and then you know, like sitting off to the side where I was just always envious of the bass player or the drummer. So I was I wanted to learn bass pretty quickly. So that was that's what I would consider my second instrument was was playing the bass. Bass. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Yeah, okay. And I have to ask, how many instruments do you play then? I it's easier to say what I don't play. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

That's great. I don't play anything that you use a bow to play, and I don't play anything that you use a double read to play, and I don't play clarinet.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Because what yeah, why the clarinet? If we play saxophone, why would you play the clarinet? Oh that's great. And so as as you've been developing and whatnot, at what point did you start adding other instruments after the bass? You started learning the saxophone, trombone, etc. Did they come all at once or in stages?

SPEAKER_02 5:43

No, it was all in stages. It's a good question. The the next instrument I would say, other than you know, fiddling around on the piano. Um, I also bought a set of congas when I was in high school and wanted to learn them like legitimately. And so I learned them from a video and practiced all the time. I like I bought a VHS on how to play the congas. And I can't think of the name of the trumpet player, but I went and saw one of those trumpet play. I mean, I saw Dizzy Gillespie playing the congas once too. You know, that's a perfect instrument to go along with the trumpet. Uh, other than that, uh kind of getting into percussion um was flute. And uh so freshman year in college, I I grew up in Southern California and I went to college, uh at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia. And in the dorms, we would, you know, obviously I'm hanging out with the musicians, and there was a guy, a friend of mine who was a guitar major and he had a flute. And I I don't know why he didn't want it anymore, but I traded him a uh one of those old clip-on microphones with a with a cord on it for the flute because he wanted to be he had also played bass and he wanted to use it as a pickup for his upright bass. But yeah, I got the flute, and uh the thing about the flute was like a huge revelation because I, you know, when I when I first picked it up, you know, right here in the right hand, the fingering is E F F sharp G, which is just insane. So immediately I went I had the facility as long as I can make a sound, I'm like, whoa, I play, you know, at least these four notes chromatically pretty well. And so I just kind of took it from there and always loved the sound, you know, and so so flute was uh a big double for me, you know, especially after college. I played at a band, I had my own band that I with my friends from college that we started. It was original music called Town Hall. I jump on the flute a lot, and we were very eclectic and outside of the normal, you know, touring band.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yeah, yeah. Well, so cool. So what so what did you get your degree in at that university?

SPEAKER_02 7:48

So I was there for trumpet. It was a jazz program. And um I I went there uh when I was in high school, I I studied with well, I would take lessons with Bobby Shu. I lived in Southern California, so this is when I was in high school. I'd drive out to Bobby Shu's and I studied with him from when I was 15 till and even once I went to college, I'd come back and and go take lessons with him. But that was for trumpet. But in terms of learning jazz, I studied with a guy named Vince Trombetta, who was a saxophone uh Woodwind guy, and he's from Philly, he was famous for being Michael Brecker's sax teacher, and and that's who like everybody in my town studied with because he was like the you know the best, you know, in terms of uh learning jazz from. So he recommended uh that I audition at UARTs, and I so I went for trumpet. And the first year I was there, I I studied with a guy named Rick Kerber, who was awesome. It was really cool because um and and and we we should probably circle back around to this, but like I I only studied with Bobby Shu, was the only trumpet teacher I ever had, um, other than like my first teacher who was like uh in high school and another kind of guy I studied with for a minute. When I started taking lessons with Rick in college, he was like, you need to like get an etude book and get and you know, actually open the Arbans book. And I own it, but I you know, like he was like giving me trumpet lessons, you know, other than you know, the stuff I learned with Bobby was like kind of the stuff we all know him for, uh, you know, the trumpet doctor, you know, learning the yoga breath and uh uh a little bit more technical stuff about the trumpet. Um I was also really young and wasn't able to retain it and you know too well. I was just excited, study with him, and we did a lot of jazz. Um just play Jamie Aversaltz and talked for two hours. And then the you know, a sad thing is that Rick, my teacher, he passed away um uh right at the beginning of my sophomore year. Oh wow, and yeah, and um, and he was the one that you know I auditioned for, and uh part of the reason why I went there. Um and so then I I started studying with John Swana, who's who's an incredible jazz trumpet player uh that not a lot of people know of, but awesome. Like I had his records in high school, his CDs, and I studied with him, and then I started a band with my friends in college, and we just decided to pursue that, and so we all like within probably within like an eight to nine month period dropped out of school to pursue our band. Yeah, and so I actually didn't get a degree.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Wow, so no degrees at all. Wow, that's crazy. And here's a question for you like a lot of people I talk to, like they need, you know, especially if you want to teach at a university, you need some sort of degree, mostly nowadays a master's and almost now pretty much a doctorate. And so as far as teaching goes, but there's a lot of players who don't pursue that teaching throughout, uh, and are just players who don't have a degree. What are your thoughts on a music degree and kind of making a career out of music? Is it necessary? Would you recommend it? Kind of just your thoughts all on that.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Yeah, um I say it's kind of two parts. Like, first of all, just like you said, I I think that if you're if you want that teaching uh job, you know, that good thing teaching job, and that's something that you know you want to have, then 100% you're gonna have to get your degree. Um as the past weight. All that said, I had um instructors, uh professors in college that didn't have their degree. You know, they'll they'll at a certain point, um, you know, experience can kind of equal that, you know. But then but then it's like, okay, you're gonna have to go out and get 20, 30 years of experience before you're hired at a university, you know, and those those, yeah. Um so it like obviously, you know, everybody that I knew um that was there uh in the master's program, because they had a pretty cool pro they had a five-year uh degree, master path to get a master's degree uh at UARTs. They're all music teachers now, and so you know, and and they play, you know, like like most teachers I know, you know, everybody still plays gigs out there and stuff, but they're all music teachers for me. Uh I my experience of just being like, all right, I'm just gonna go be in the music industry was more valuable because you know, I as soon as I started doing that, we were an independent band. We all had to like learn how to, you know, get out there and book gigs and tour, and we bought our own van and we all lived in the same house and bought our own van and trailer and promoted ourselves. And this is before, you know, like we had my we didn't even really have MySpace. This was like in the early days. We didn't even have cell phones, we had a we had a map that we would follow, like a written map to get around the country. And and then we had to learn to make our album, you know, and figure out how to fund it at first, and then get it gave the studio and figure out how to record. And from there, you know, it was like a a good time because um it's right around the time when Pro Tools was early Pro Tools days, early digital recording days. It was like everything was changing. The music industry was changing so much during that time. This was like right around 2000, 2000, 2001. Uh you know, um, being in the industry, you know, from you know, having our, you know, being down there on the on the war field, you know, was was absolutely necessary to like where I am today. Um and just kind of taking it from there. I don't think that two more years of school would have benefited me for what I'm doing now.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Yeah, yeah. And that's the debate that a lot of people who I think kind of go through is like, should I go to school for this or should I go and get experience? And some people do both, some people end up, you know, Michael Sachs, who I just talked to, he got a history degree. Uh he plays principal for Cleveland Workstra, right? He's been for almost 40 years. And then Bijan Watson, he's teaching at Berkeley College of Music, but he has like a computer science degree or something like that. And so it's like so it's sometimes it doesn't necessarily matter. I I think, and it's so hard. I think it depends on each person in their situation, but like it's just you kind of the theme of the of the podcast in the book is like there's no one set way to do things, but you just gotta figure out what's gonna work best for you.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

Yeah, I will say that two I had two parts to that. The second part is that um go go to college, you know. Um like like you said, even if you're gonna go study something else or anything, the experience and the opportunity of especially if you're gonna, you know, I mean, like even in your own town, whatever, you know. But like I went from Los Angeles to Philadelphia. I met like new people, I experienced new things. The social growth that you get just from that first year is is worth it, you know. I mean, don't beat yourself up if it's not for you and you don't want to stick around and get a degree, or like maybe you'll find something else that you love, like computer science or something, and you can get a degree, and then you're you're you know, you could skip a lot of years of misery trying to make it just as a musician, you know. But yeah, I mean, like I I don't want to write off, you know, going to college at all because that experience in itself is so uh I think is like that, like I wouldn't be where I am without that either. You know, that's where I met my bandmates, that's where I got this new perspective on uh on music and introduced to so much different music from my friends and uh yeah, and yeah, no, I I I agree 100%.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Like there's there's so many people that I met in school that it's like, yeah, I wouldn't have done met so many people, I wouldn't have done so many other things. Um even just meeting talking with and meeting with the professors. You moved to town before uh uh after my jazz professor left, his name's Alex Heilinger. He's teaching out in Texas now, but he was great and he's one of the first ones who was like, Okay, hey, let me refer you for this gig in town. Here's this yada yada yada, and that was like my first like pro gig, and I'm like, Oh, am I ready for this? Well, but like then that that was like the first thing. So, like without him helping me, teaching me, and then helping me get going, like it would have taken a lot longer for me to start doing stuff around town.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Absolutely. I had the same experience as soon as I got there. Um I I was playing wedding gigs and subbing for wedding gigs for the other trouble players at UARTs and getting professional gigs like right away. It's it's really big there in Philadelphia, New Jersey area. Weddings, wedding bands.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Yeah, that's there's a whole yeah, there's a whole chapter in the book about wedding bands and all that, all that good stuff too. Okay, so tell me more about the band and what you guys did. How long was did that go for? And what was your experience? And also, and maybe part two of this question, you talked a little bit about having to find your own gigs, do your own promoting, and kind of have to be like self-sufficient. And when uh how did those skills help you later on in your career that you developed?

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Yeah, so we were pretty serious, and the thing the way the band started was through like jams that we would have at our apartments, and we would just have these jams and and eventually we were playing jazz, you know. We were in jazz, we we were a bunch of guys in jazz school, and you know, I'm I'm huge jazz guy, I'm jazz guy at heart. That's where I I came up, you know, and that's what I listened to. But by the time I got to college, you know, like people would be like, What are you listening to? I'd be like, I'm listening to the Beatles, you know, like because I had to never listen to them, you know. And I wanted to experience, you know, all these things that I the people, you know, I heard are just so amazing. The Beatles and Bob Dylan and Neil Young and and the Crosby Stills and Nash. And you know, I was into I was a big, you know, like Earth Wind and Fire and Steely Dan and James Brown, all the horn, you know, bands when I was in high school and stuff, but like not like more like of this like songwriting world. And through those jams, we sort of created this band. Um, there'd be a lot of people at the jams, but then there was like we kind of put together a core group, and um and our idea was okay, what's five jazz majors idea of being in like a rock band? Like and it was literally like we'd sound like a different band on every song because we we just didn't really have like one style that we would play necessarily. Um the influences were very vast, and one of the main things we were all multi-instrumentalists, the only person that didn't change instruments every song was the drummer, so we'd be like that, you know, I'd be playing bass and singing on a song, and then the next song I'd be playing trumpet behind a set of congas, and like I'd pick up an accordion or a harmonica or the flute, and another guy played trumpet and bass and mandolin, and another guy played bass and banjo, and you know, like some that's one of our our things that we had was we were just like one of those band, we were like musical chairs on our instruments.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah, that's that's wild. So how long were you guys together and and doing stuff then?

SPEAKER_02 19:50

We were together for uh almost seven years, and um uh and you asked about like figuring things out on our own. Um, you know, we had a manager, booking agent that um, you know, we worked with. Uh uh, so that was I mean, that's that's the there's something that you know to to know that you know you you can't do these things on your own. You really can't be your own manager or especially your own booking agent. You do need to like sort of, I mean, uh hire is like uh I use that term loosely because these are different, this was a different time, and we didn't make any money doing this. We didn't make, you know, like we made enough money. Like I said, we all lived in the same house. We had a van and trailer just to like keep like I don't know how we bought food. Like, I'm I can't remember because I never once like remember actually like getting more than like a $20 bill in a week um for you know so but like you know that that's how we got gigs, but you know, the the big thing that came out of that was us learning to record ourselves and make our own music because you know, just being a live band, um, you know, back in that day at that time we we were just you know going around we would do all types of gigs, we would open for big bands, big artists, but then sometimes we would drive 10 hours to play in Charleston and for two people now, or for the sound guy, you know, and do that. So it's like not necessarily getting you anywhere, just getting you that experience, I guess. But we were all very interested in making recordings, but at the time it was expensive. Home recording wasn't really a thing yet, and so we were basically like getting our first computers and stuff just to get pro tools and build it. We built a little studio in the house. Uh, and you know, one of the guys in the band was excelled at that very well, and so we all learned from him, and not all of us, uh it's three of us that got into recording, and like I bought I never owned a computer myself, and so I bought my first computer just so I could start, just so I could get pro tools. just so I can you know start doing figuring out how to use it and and and do this recording thing you know and that's that was like a huge thing for us and then by you know so our first and you know by our third album we were doing most of the recording at home you know by the time we broke up which what the reason we broke up was because you know we started the band when we were 19 and now we're 26 years old 25 26 years old still not making any money still it just was a long hard path you know we learned a lot got a lot of experience I met a lot of people that I still um you know work with today uh and but you know we were like we needed lives you know we we couldn't we needed like to be able to have girlfriends and and stuff you know like yeah and we I mean like it was tough because most of the people we knew they were 25 26 at that time they're getting jobs they're making some kind of a living and and things like that so it it just kind of ran its course and you know all went on our separate ways.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

And uh but I like you said like it sounds like those years were like foundational informative for everything else you're gonna do later on in your career.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Yeah absolutely because I was able to go from yeah I I just played in a band making records for six and a half years to like I'm moving back to LA and reaching out to anybody that I knew that does you know producers and uh uh songwriters and things and being like hey let's keep let's work you know um I just you know I already had that like I came from that world now yeah yeah so after that after the band broke up where did where did you end up and what was next for you? Yeah so when the band broke up then I I was like all right time to go home. I've been in Philly for eight years and I went back to LA and I figured I would just like put myself out there as as a as a musician you know and build my home recording studio you know at the time which is very basic you know like which is talk just like start and continue a songwriter at that point you know and and early in my producing years and so I've just like find a place where I could set up and and get going and just start and I would reach out you know like I said when I was in high school there's a lot of guys that were really serious. And so I reached out to my friends and found out you know one of my good friends Julie Bonetta is you know still producing music one of the biggest producers there is today. And uh and he started calling me for horn sessions. Yeah okay and he was already doing like major label stuff. And so I started doing horn sessions. That's that's when that really started out there. And this was like in person this is like and then and I put myself out there and I would uh as a bass player I was I I would go to like backup singer songwriters and stuff but I'd always have my trumpet so I like just me like whipping out the trumpet in the middle of a set would somewhat promote that a little bit you know like people knew me as a horn player I always made sure that people knew that I I did that too I was so used to doing the multi-instrumentalist thing that I'd always like have the trumpet there and find some way to get it in. Yeah so you started just doing were you doing just um trumpet for those sessions or yeah just trumpet on flute whenever you know it come up okay so the other thing was as soon as I got back I actually got a job working at a music store Nick Rail music which is like basically like just like summer haze music but out in Southern California. It's like a band orchestral store where people rent instruments. I I was working there teaching like doing the retail side doing sales and then also teaching which was awesome because it was like the first time I made any money and yeah and um and so I was like 27 years old and and it was great because I worked behind the counter so when someone would come up for lessons and they'd be hey do you guys do you guys have a uh you know guitar teacher I'd be like here here's my card I mean yep um I I or a trumpet everything I would teach at any instrument you know just because I at one point I had like 25 students and I like teaching. So uh I was doing that but I had access to all these horns. I would literally just like because I worked there so that's when I really started playing saxophone um and you know the the manager would let me take a sax to a session and so I would you know so yeah I I not long after that was I like showing up with what I call my hornsonal you know with like everything as much as I could bring you know I'd bring a trombone and in those days um I had a slide trombone and it was that's a tough instrument and so I would always like wait till the end to do the trombone and hopefully run out of time and be like hey why don't you let me finish this at home because I always felt more you know because it's it's embarrassing it's a tough instrument to play now I have a valve trombone that I do most of my tracking on okay there you go yeah wow man there's so much to dig into this is so great so you've been doing that the horn stuff and the sessions out in LA for a long time for you and that that led to so I was doing a lot of those types of horn sessions that I'm explaining you know and um I uh was working in the music store that's how I was making my living and I tried to um build that into the the horn session thing the remote horn session thing because I this is in 2007 like where I was like you know this could be a thing and I could make a good living just like you know recording horns for people's records around the world you know and and doing it remotely. So I I made a website called vhorns.com virtualhorns.com and I made cards and I would go to the NAM show and and try and hand out my cards no one called me from that no never did it work it was just you know the people that I like I said I would go play in LA at the time there was a a good amount of like you know playing situations where I'd uh usually be playing bass you know I'd get a lot of bass gigs you know I I I use that word lightly too because I don't ever remember getting paid for any of that stuff but like I don't you know everybody knew me as a horn player so I was still around in that world of singer songwriters you know artists producers and stuff and so when they thought of horns they would think of me and so I would get those gigs here and there you know not enough to like live off of it or anything. And then once I went um and uh was recommended so it would be word of mouth I'd get recommended and I started playing uh I did a session with uh this guy Cisco Adler um had they had this pop group called Schwazy it was I don't know if you remember Schwazy from uh around like 2007 they had a couple really big hits top 10 hits Rona and Lime and Buzzin' and um yeah and so I'm there doing a session and this was major label so I was excited because I'm I'm you know getting paid uh for it through the union so I'm like doing my own union contracting so I'm like hey you know like you want to double on this you want to double on that and like I'm able to like charge for every single instrument and every overdad every double and and then he's like hey don't you play bass too and like yeah yeah he's all this song needs bass I'm playing bass don't you play guitar too? Yeah don't you play keys I ended up playing like on almost the entire album that they were they're recording their second album they already had like some success and then and in that process they asked if I wanted to come on tour with them as their DJ and I'm not a DJ but they're like hey we don't want to have like a record scratching DJ anymore. We want to like try and bring like a live band element because it was just a singer and a rapper and a DJ. And so they're like what would be cool is if you just come and do playback you know that was the extent of my DJing was like a you know like button you know to start the track. And then I would just jam along I had like a double keyboard set up I had a big percussion set up with some bollies and cymbals and and photo toms and I'd whip out my trumpet and whip out the bass and like all of it. And so that was I did that for three years. And that was a like touring on another level because they were pretty big. We were doing like big shows big opening shows big headlining shows headlining tours opening tours uh you know tour bus style a lot of fly dates and then and not long into that I also became the tour manager of that group so I was learning to basically because we would fly somewhere to play a show and I'd have to have all the equipment there set up from a a back line company and I would get I'd I'd go pick up the bill I'd go check into the hotel for us and things like that. Yeah wow that's that's a whole nother set of skills that man I didn't even think about like that because wow yeah have you used those tour messaging skills yes let's let's hear more about it I mean we could be here forever I've got like a really long and twisty story. So I did Schway for a few years. Hope this is interesting. Because so so after touring with Schway which was like yeah learning everything about the touring business because I was I was there you know when they like when the shit hit the fan hit me first every time you know and uh and so I dealt with everything it was a it was a lot of responsibility and then uh that also ran its course and I was I was tired of touring that was the main thing because I was like out um you know two thirds of the year you know not home and I I was still you know wanted to be a songwriter and a producer just there it the the two don't really go together when you learn all that and so I left that and then a very random thing came up where a guy was building a hotel in Cabo um and he wanted it to be an art and music hotel and he wanted to have a recording studio in the hotel. And so I was recommended to go build and design a recording studio at this place called Hotel Algonzo in Los Cabos Mexico and and I'm like all right uh this is interesting. It was only going to be for three months at first just to go they wanted someone who you know in my experience making studios was like helping my friends like put together a studio in their bedroom telling them what you're and stuff like that. And and like as soon as I said yes they're like all right how do we build studio walls you know okay all in Spanish uh like the you know like which I didn't speak and and I I literally went to Barnes and Noble and bought a book on how to build a studio and that's where I started. It was one of totally one of those just say yes and figure it out later. Yeah instead of building a really beautiful studio I did I I really thought like okay this is a hotel it's just a room where we're gonna put up some you know some you know sound you know sound dampening and stuff like that and um and I'm gonna get put together a gear list that they're gonna buy and you know but no it turned into like literally like how to build the walls and the windows and and everything. And um yeah and so it it ended up being a pretty long pro much longer than three month process and I was living there and the owner he was like um he ended up asking me to stay because he didn't really have an idea like the the hotel there's uh has this art exchange. So if you're a visual artist you come down you paint a big mural on the wall in exchange for staying there and like being treated like a king and getting a free vacation with your significant other but he wasn't sure how to structure that with the with the musicians. So I sort of put together the the put together the the music program that we had there and I was the music director at the hotel. And so and I was like yeah I think I I got an idea of how we can do this. And I started inviting people I knew uh to come down and be artists in residents there. And my big thing was like okay I built a an outdoor venue so they would play a show but we needed them to leave us with something and at the time I was way into there's something called the taxi cab sessions there was also like the Abbey Road sessions which was these live sessions in well the taxi cab sessions was in a taxi cab but Abbey Road sessions is really cool because it's like it was like Chili Peppers and John Mayer and Radiohead playing in Abbey Road studios playing performing a song I'm like oh we'll do our version of that yeah and so I had them buy me a camera and I would like set up all the mics set up everybody in the live room hit record run in and and film it and I made this video series called the El Gonzo sessions.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Wow yeah that's another skill of like video stuff and man you've done you've done it all.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Yeah yeah so I became a videographer at that point and learned you know and got way into it you know we would do multiple takes and I'd edit it and I learned final cut and and just that like you were asking about how my tour managing skills well I would book the art I was booking the artists to come down and so I would arrange their everything for them you know and host them while they're there and you know take care of them and make them feel at home and uh and all that. So that's where those skills came in handy later and that job. This up El Gonzo El Gonza yeah and also I'll say also the thing about that job was I would eventually um I wasn't just booking my friends. I was booking like the biggest artists that I could find. I have a nice offer um we would pay for flights and it was a you know it was like a a good trade you know for for a lot of people you know they all their food and drinks taken care of with awesome vacation with a recording studio that while they weren't doing you know the show and the session which was only one day they would get to use the studio to work on whatever they wanted to I'd engineer for them if they needed me to or I'd say like bring your own engineer you know and I'd always have my trumpet out you know I always had a trumpet around again and and that's how I I got on a lot of records by just being there with my trumpet you know because these were some there's some big artists. I mean this this plaque was recorded there you know uh uh Natalia LaFercade Asta Blais you know she was there I set it up so she could come she was there for a month working on writing and like getting most of like the the basic structure and recording for that album which won a Grammy and is now double platinum and and there's a lot of other you know great Mexican artists that I played on their records and and some other you know US artists. Wow that's so cool. Yeah how long were you down there for then I was down I lived there for two years and there was a hurricane so I also have hurricane experience um and and it destroyed it destroyed the hotel destroyed the recording studio the oh we were in a marina so the ocean just came in and the studio was in a basement so I came back to LA and decided that I didn't want to live in in Mexico anymore. I wanted to live in the states but they kept me and uh I would commute I went down rebuilt the recording studio did a whole nother construction project and and then for another five years I commuted down there every month to host a different artist. Oh great yeah so I was there seven years total with that company.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

That's so cool. Yeah all those years that yeah you get connected with a lot of artists and I love I love what you you were doing. You just like had your trumpet ready to go just like yeah I can do this too. Great like that's so like that's probably what's gotten you a lot of work then and now is just being ready and uh being like take I don't want to say taking advantage of the moment but but like just being prepared of like rather than leaving the horn in the case or leaving it at in your hotel room or whatever it's like it's there it's ready it's like you're letting people know hey I'm available to do this as well if you want and stuff like that's that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Yeah no absolutely having that horn out you know people would just see if you play trumpet man we're gonna record some trumpet while we're here they'd get excited you know it's not definitely not a taking advantage thing it was like an opportunity for them and you know I would I would almost every band while while they would do their show because I would also produce this live show they would want me to come up and solo on a song or something and and that was like a big thing in in when I was living in LA too you know a lot of there was people that'd be like hey can you come and just jump up on a song and and I would love to do that you know and so um just always being willing to like you know adapt and and jump up on stage and and rip a solo you know yeah yeah that that was a lot of you know I think that you know thinking back that was a lot of good like self-promotion as well yeah it sounded like not quite intentional but but it was still was turned out great.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Yeah no that's so cool. So then you moved back to LA and what were you doing next? Just more sessions more home home studio stuff? Yeah so let's see here.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

So I was still working with El Gonzo and I I had decided I wanted to get back and while I was doing El Gonzo let's just say I was really focused on that mostly and so I wasn't doing a lot of like recording I would record at the studio at in Cabo but I and I'd work with the artists there. But I wasn't doing a lot of my own music and I do horn sessions here and there but I wasn't uh focused on making my own music let's just say that you know wasn't focused on the trumpet you know I wasn't really practicing just kept what I like to call reserve chops um where I should play for like you know 20 25 minutes before it was like all right let's do something else you know but so what happened was um uh I I met a friend who invited me to come do a songwriting I was uh always trying to do songwriting you know and when I say that like in the traditional pop sense where you you get into a room with you know with each other and you write a song and produce it out you know I wanted to do that and but I also was like okay I'm gonna set up my own studio again and make music I don't know what it is yet and and so I got invited to a songwriting session that was uh the in the sync business so what we call sync synchronization which is basically creating music for any kind of visual media like you know whether it be uh commercial TV film video game anything where they are putting music behind because it's a big industry where if you have a song and then a TV show wants to use that song they can license it and pay you and and you get paid and it's a you know I mean it's a huge way to make money as as a musician as a producer as a songwriter. And so I I'm like all right and they're like and the thing was that you try to you know you it you have to be a little bit deliberate in that business. My friend was like I'm trying to make songs that sound like uptown funk. I want to do like five new songs that are like five versions of uptown funk and you play horns and you songwrite so you're the perfect guy to work with and so I went in we did that exactly that we made these like super like you know high energy funky disco um pop songs after that I got my first license um for for a TV show and I'm like this is it this is like it was like the heavens open yeah yeah yeah this is how I want to make my living you know and so I just went like both feet all the way I'm like okay I'm I'm in this industry now and I started building my catalog working with as many people like co-writing with as many people as I could that already were doing it I signed a publishing deal and I was still working at El Gonzo and just sort of waiting for the moment where I could leave that because I didn't see that as my future being working at hotels. And so um and I tried to scale it but it just wasn't happening. It was too much work and I wanted to make music. I wanted to get back to making music. I just had the call and it was calling me back. And so I got back into music and that's how I got back in was doing sync and and my goal was to just like make as many songs build as big of a catalog as I could as quickly as possible do it as high quality I had a it was a big learning curve because I had to really get good at mixing and producing and songwriting and you know and doing it well because you there's you know it's like is a high bar um in that industry yeah for what actually goes and what what makes it into the big you know yeah yeah for sure.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

So and that's what you've been doing ever since.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

And that's what I've been doing ever since. Yeah. And so I I was doing that, like I said, I eventually I left El Gonzo so that I could just put all my energy into that business and still doing the horn sessions. Um, and at this, so that brings you know, then the pandemic happened and I moved out here. I knew about Utah because of my touring days. I used to come here all the time on tour, and so I was always like, I love it here, you know, it's a beautiful place. And the pandemic was like this opportunity to go and you know, somewhere else, you know, outside of LA because L was a total mess at that time. Yeah, and no one was seeing each other, no one was doing anything, and so it really opened up the remote thing that I've been trying to do, remember, since 2007. Yeah, uh, and a lot of people were making music, and so I was getting horn sessions and doing a lot of like Zoom, like writing sessions, and also I do a lot of hundred percent music, I do a lot of what's called library production music, where it's instrumental music that I make on my own for music libraries for TV. And so between those three things, doing sync, doing production music, doing horn sessions, that's that's how I wow, and so and you've been in Utah ever since. Yeah, and I stayed, yeah, and I loved it here. Uh, you know, I mean, I just I I was doing really well during the pandemic. Yeah, I was, you know, I was getting license, you know, before the the the the um the TV and film industry really like was hit by you know, COVID had like a very like delayed effect on the on the TV on Hollywood because like there was a lot of stuff that was still in production, post-production for for years, and um, and that we didn't have the writer strike yet, we didn't have the actors strike yet, and everything. So uh that that was like a kind of a tough time uh for in my business. But previous to that, was the band was doing great, and so I'm like, oh, you know, just prove that I didn't need to actually be in LA anymore. I could live somewhere where I could, you know, have more space and just a chiller lifestyle, which is yeah, what I like about out here.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Yeah, I I know like so many musicians where they're like, Oh, I want to go to LA, I want to go to New York, and I may want to make it big. And I was like, that's great, like there's nothing wrong with that. But you don't like you don't have to be there to to be to be the one of the best, right? Like, yeah, they have some of the best musicians, but there's still guys like Steve Patrick in Nashville or Danny Daniel Falcone in Las Vegas, or yeah, you know, you the list goes on and on where they're doing just as well on all Patrick mouthpieces. Awesome. I need I try some of this stuff. I need to come over and hang out and see your studio. That's yes, yes. Oh much fun. Yeah, no, that's so cool. So tell us tell us more about like who some of the big artists you've done hunt horns for recently and kind of how that's just continued to propel you moving forward musically.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

Yeah, so in the last eight months alone, I've been able to do some really awesome projects. I worked with Olivia, well, not directly with Olivia Dean, but again, you know, a lot of this uh business is knowing producers. And so it's the producers that call you for the the horn sessions, not the artists, you know, because they're working on the song. They're like, they gotta figure out how to get the horns on it if they want them. And so I I played on uh So Easy to Fall in Love, which is a massive hit right now, uh by Olivia Dean. And uh I played on a Megan Trainer song, and her album's coming out this week. So there's one that's been released called Get In Girl, and there's another song called I I think it's called Rich Girl. And so her album is being released this week, and and I'm on another song with that. There's uh next month, I think Niall Horn from One Direction is releasing a record, uh, an album that I'm on a song on that. I work with this fantastic artist, uh, Zenadelphia, who does like this fantastic sort of throwback, still with a modern touch music, and there's tons and tons of horns on it. And so, and I play on almost every one of her songs. She just released an EAP where I'm on a couple songs on that, but it that stuff is great because I really get to stretch and uh there's solos and all kinds of things going on there. I just recently um did a session for a song that's in the Mario movie, uh the Mario Galaxy. Yeah, um, yeah, that's very cool. Like, that's the first time I've like, you know, done anything like that. Um I did that right here in in Utah, you know. Uh that's the trip, you know, because like you know who else is on that uh plays on the score is Virgin, you know. But like he's in the studio in LA, and you know, there's a whole scene where it's like I'm playing trumpet, trombone, all the sacks is, and it's you know, I did it, I did it right here in the room next to me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

That's so cool. Yeah, I gotta come check out your space. That's man, that's awesome. Because there's you found your own little niche of trumpet that isn't even live performance. I think we talked at um a gig last year with uh the critical hit click the big band of have you're like, yeah, I haven't done much live stuff in a while. And I'm like, Yeah, I think at the time I was like, How? How do you do what? Because like it seems like playing live is like what everybody thinks of playing the trumpet. It's playing live, whether it's a symphony or a wedding band or a big band or what whatever the case is, but you've figured out how to go the route of recording, and but not all, I guess I guess it sounds like more importantly, not necessarily just recording horns, but also producing songwriting, getting the sync licenses, and it's been more uh it's like you've been able to do these cool things on and horn sessions for these big artists and these movies, but it sounds like maybe quote unquote your day job is writing music for licensing. Is that an accurate way to say it?

SPEAKER_02 49:55

Yeah, I mean, these days I would say it's a split between that and horn sessions. I don't just get you know, the I named artists that you you may know, but like a lot of people need horns for uh all kinds in the saint business too, you know. So there's people doing uh ads and they and they need horns, you know, and all this like there's indie artists that you know, like I could, you know, mention all day, you know, that you may not have heard of that are making their records and I'll charge them a different rate and stuff, but still, like, you know, I'm doing a horn session today. Um, and uh you know, I'm I find myself doing sessions almost weekly. Um, and then yes, also working on library music, also working on you know new sync mus music and releasing me. I'm also you know, you could go find me on on Spotify or or Apple Music, and I release the music and I I don't do a good job of it, but I try to like put myself out there as an artist, you know, which is another thing, you know, and just constantly like you know, just raising rising all the things together. And so yeah, I I wouldn't say that like sync is my day job, and then playing like the the hornwork is like that that's definitely they're equal at this point, yeah, for sure. And like, you know, we we met at that big band thing, and I was just like, I'm like, you know what, I need to get out and play because I hadn't been uh you know on a stage in a decade, and I hadn't been other than like for like jumping up and playing a song, and I hadn't been in a recording studio, which is it's fine. I still don't like go to recording studios, I do it here, but more like the playing thing. Like, I just wanted to get together and play. I'm so glad that like that big band Kriggle hit Big Band is there, you know. I just did a rehearsal with them last week, and I don't care like for that beauty of it, is like it's fine that like you don't make any money doing it because I just really I play in the Salt Lake Symphonic Winds, you know. I just I realized that for as a musician, especially as a trumpet player, I needed to like start finding ways to play out in public. Um, and it's totally transformed my chops. Like when we met last year, I was going through a full as a trumpet park. We'll have to do a part two, man, so just talk about trumpet stuff because uh where where we met, you and I met was at ITG at Tom Hooton's booth. Yeah, and I like was studying with Tom, and he he's like, We're gonna change your armor if you if you're up for it. And that was uh that was like intense. I had to become a little baby again, and like you know, I was like dealing with stuff I had never dealt with in terms of like chops, uh you know, like it was it was really difficult. But I I got through I'm definitely a better trumpet player for it.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Good, yeah. I did uh my my friend Clark Lovell does a podcast called Um Trust the Process, and it's all about um injury um and recovering from injury, and it's uh not specific to brass, it's like a bunch of stuff, but I did an episode on there where basically back in 2019 I almost split my lid in half internally and had to stop playing for eight months and like relearn how to play. Wild stuff. I'll send that to you if you want to check it out. But yeah, it's that's a whole yeah, whole nother topic and and uh I feel like every trumpet player has to go through something like that where they're like they totally have to change a bunch of stuff and it's like rough, but then at the other end of it, it's like oh yeah, that was good. That was good. Yeah, you're so much better because of it.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

Absolutely. I had the same thing, you know. I was like, as soon as I I was started doing wedding gigs out here too, which are just a blow, you know. As soon as I start getting full gigs, you know, being on stage playing trumpet for a couple hours, this cut that I had back in college, you know. Last time I would do that, I would, you know, just this it returned right in the same spot, and and I'm like, man, this is not gonna fly. I'm just gonna destroy my chop. And and it was scary when it would like cross over into I'm doing a session and I'm like, shoot, I gotta like do this tomorrow because I can't even like, you know, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

So man, that's uh yeah. In those moments, um, you know, what do you do to get centered, work through the gig, and still deliver on you know, this other product that you have? Like, what are some tricks or things that you try and do to to be able to still be at the top of your game despite other gigs and other things that you've been doing?

SPEAKER_02 54:21

Um, well now it's it's just so different since I you know, like when I was in the process of doing the omiture change, like I it was just whatever. Like honestly, it was like whatever, you know. I could a lot of times it was there's nothing you can do, you know. Like uh it would I I felt like so I would you know make an excuse and put it off a day, you know, like this like a recording. I'm not saying that you should do that, but I wanted to deliver the best product possible, so you know, I'm able to play another. I was like, okay, I'm just gonna work on the Saxes today and get those all done and save my and save and then just do trumpet on fresh chops tomorrow. Well, because I get to the point where it's like, okay, I'm not producing sound. Now this was during the top change, but now I I will say that um I it's just about um sticking to uh the the fundamentals that I've picked up over the last year studying with Tom. I took a lesson with with Josh, with Josh Kaufman, that's been really great. Showed me this, uh, a couple things that he does, one of them being like a whisper g. Do you ever take a lesson with him?

SPEAKER_00 55:31

Yeah, I've taken a couple, yeah. Yeah, uh did he did he talk about the whisper G with you? I think we did. We might have briefly gone over it.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

It's just you know, he he starts and ends every day with just you know a whisper G, not necessarily like the the super whisper G, just a really soft G um to center. And then he does this what I call the uh reverse um uh uh bend where it's like you go G F sharp and then you let go of the the thing and stay on the F sharp. Yeah, yeah, like that.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

So that really helps me. Josh has helped me. Steve, uh just through email, you know, like while because that's why I love Patrick uh mouthpieces, not just because they're great mouthpieces, but like he's always like I wanted to get a lesson with him, but like he's so busy doing so many things that um he just gives me like gems in in email. He's like, Yeah, let the mouthpiece do the work, you know, get the right now that he knows what mouthpieces I play on because I have like five of his mouthpieces. Yeah, yeah. And he's like, Oh, it just sounds like you're not like you know, letting the mouthpiece do the work in this case. And so that that's a big thing, you know, playing with no pressure or minimal pressure. I have this right here. Tom got me into this is called the torture device. I I hang my trumpet from here and do you know zero pressure exercise and and then and I try to play every day. That's it. Try and not just play, but like I I do a routine Schlossberg, stamp, fundamentals. It's that's what's been key. And now that I've been doing it for a little over a year, it's just like now it's in maintenance maintenance mode. I don't feel like I'm uh getting to those points where it's like, oh shoot, I can't play anymore.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's great. That's that's super helpful. And then a couple questions, and maybe we can yeah, do a part two sometime. But um I there's different online companies that are doing that I've seen at least that are doing, you know, freelance horn sessions or whatever. You know, there's air gigs, um, sound better, musal, a handful of others.

SPEAKER_02 57:39

Have you yeah, I'm on Sound Better. Um, I've used I use it. I still get calls every once in a while from Sound Better and it's it's like hit and miss. I've met people on Sound Better that I still work with, you know, and yeah, I I I say get get up there for sure. If you're if you're recording from home, which everybody should kind of every trumpet player should get into for sure. And and that's a great place to start. Get on all of them. When I first got on Sound Better, I was like, okay, I'm gonna hit this hard. I'm gonna be the first person that shows up when you search Horns Trumpet on Sound Better. And for a while I was, and so I made that my goal. Yeah. And and I didn't have like a lot of huge credits at that time. And so, but you know, it was a good way to learn. It's it takes a while to learn how to sort of charge that the you know, you know, like how to charge for your time and your value and everything like that. And the thing with Sound Better is that you know, the the the general clients that are there are looking for a deal, you know. And so these days I get less of them because I still quote what I uh like the minimum that I want to get paid to do something, and I get a lot of passes because people are there looking for you know budget. Yeah, but I I I did a sound better session like a couple months ago, you know. I've if it I get that email, like I I reply and you know, let them know. So if so works, yeah, I I highly suggest using that.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

Okay, cool. And then for for those players who were like, okay, I've been listening to Mark, I want to start getting into this too. You know, besides getting the equipment and learning how to produce and record and all that stuff, you know, how to find those opportunities? What would you recommend and suggest, especially since things are so different now with the internet and digit the digital age and stuff? What are some recommendations you have for starting to get into that recording scene and doing the homework kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_02 59:39

So I think that there's a lot to be said to just start making music. You know, don't wait. Just you know, like be be a multi-instrumentist, you know, it's not gonna take that long. You know, get get get your like, especially if like no one wants to like no one's gonna like rent out a studio and and you know put together the budget and the arrangements and everything to like have you come in and record. It's very, very rare. It's just so rare that you might do it once a year if you're lucky. Um so you know, create the environment first, be that person, you know, make songs, figure out how to how to make whatever it is, even if it's just trumpet music, you know, figure out how to make the background. If you if you want like a really good guitar player, get your buddy that plays guitar to play on it, learn how to record it, you know, start and and do things, you know, like for not without making money, you know, because like you know when in the sync business, you know, I created my entire catalog without getting paid to do it. You know, you it's like it's like being a an artist, you know, you you you know, you get you make all the paintings and then you put them up on the wall and then you sell them, you know. Yeah so like just start doing it. Um, the thing about being a multi-instrumentalist is like you know, it you know, you pick up a new instrument, you'll you'll be good at that instrument in like three years, you know. Like, but you gotta start at some point. Think about like where you were as a trumpet player when, you know, or yeah, where we were as a trumpet player freshman year in high school as opposed to senior year, you know, it's like it only took four years to like become super advanced, you know. Um, and uh and now we're older and we have and just our ability to learn and pick up new things is easier. So like just start making music, whatever it is, you know, figure out like the process and be part of it. And then, you know, like I said, just man, I would I would reach out to producers on Instagram and just be like, hey, you have a horn guy? Yeah, you know, I play, I play the horns, and you know, you know, if you're if you're new, offer it for cheap, or or just you know, do like a one for free or something like that, you know, just to get that relationship going. But like put yourself out there like that. You know, don't don't like a lot of the people, if you're young, if you if you know talented musicians, um like work with them, you know, like because like 10 years down the line, you don't know where they're gonna be, you know. My buddy Julian, I went to high school with him, and you know, now he's and he's one of the biggest producers in the world. He produces all the Sabrina Carpenter hits and um and Teddy Swim's uh um lose control. And uh he's he's he's he's a legend. And we were high school, we were in high school big band together. But like, but you know, that wasn't just lucky. That was when I moved back to LA. I was like, who's still doing this? What do you need, man? I'm there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

The trash, you know, like being being willing to help. That's one of the yeah, even stuff like that like makes a big difference. Yeah, yeah. So my last question, then we can wrap up here about um what do you know now that you wish you knew when you were younger about the music business? Oh god, that's a heavy question.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:51

Just two, I would say two things. One is to just keep going, you know, keep going, keep taking big swings, you know, keep swinging at it. Yeah, just know that like because I did keep swinging, but like I sure beat myself up with that bat along the way. You know, a lot goes on in here in this business because you're gonna take a lot of swings and you're gonna miss a lot of swings, and you're gonna, you know, there you're gonna deal with a lot of rejection and a lot of no's, and and there's gonna be wins and there's gonna be losses, and those losses feel like it's the end, you know, often you can make it feel like that. And so that you know, it's just like that, like keep going, have grit, you know, like try to like move past, you know, all these things that I mentioned that has happened for me in the last eight months, the Mario movie, Olivia Dean, everything, it's feels awesome and really glad those things, but I'm like seriously, like sitting here, like, all right, what's next? You know, like um, it doesn't it doesn't make give me any like necessarily like level of like all right, no, I'm good, you know. Like yeah, so like I gotta keep going. And the other thing is to be like really critical of yourself, be a like your best like critic and and try it to like learn to be honest with yourself and um you know as best as you can. Sometimes it's like you you think that you're you're there, but you're just not, and that can mess with you too. Like be like, all right, well, sorry, this is gonna take another, you know, day or year or whatever, you know, to get to what to get to that like level. And I and I what I mean is like that you're um producing and and creating or playing at a certain level, like you have to be honest with yourself and and push yourself to get there and uh because you know the the bar is is really high in general, all across the board.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, this is this has been great, Mark. Thank you so much for sharing your story and all this stuff, man. This is you open up another world to me, and I'm like, wow, now we gotta write another chapter. Now I'm a little upset, and I'm just gonna take more time. No, it's great. This has been so much fun. Well, come by and let's like you know, hang and play some duets and talk about your book.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:15

Uh yeah, man. Yeah, that'd be great. We'll do a part two. Maybe we can't even do it at the studio.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20

Okay, yeah, do it. Sounds great. Thank you. Catch you soon. All right, man. Good talking. You too.