SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Modern Trumpeter Podcast. I'm very excited for today's guest as she is one of the most notable members of some of the top premier military bands and is highly regarded in the Broadway and New York scene. Today we get to speak with Lisa Whitaker. Liesel is a professional trumpet player specializing in lead and commercial playing. She's performed for numerous Broadway productions, including some like It Hot, Mr. Saturday Night, starring Billy Crystal, and many others. She's recently retired from the U.S. Army, where she played lead trumpet for both the Army Blues and the Jazz Ambassadors for nearly 21 years. Lisa was the first female to win and hold this position in any of the premier military jazz ensemble, of which she accomplished it twice for each group. Prior to her military service, she lived and worked in New York City as a Broadway commercial trumpet player. She has toured all over the world throughout her career and is an original member of the Diva Jazz Orchestra. Throughout her career, she has performed with artists including Nancy Wilson, Clark Terry, the Maria Schneider Jazz Orchestra, the WDR Big Band, Joe Lavano, the Manhattan Transfer, Al Giro, Maurice Hines, James Brown, Patrick Williams, Diane Schurer, Judy Collins, and many others. And as always, we want to let our listeners know that we are in the process of writing a book called The Modern Trumpeter: A Guide to Building a Versatile and Successful Career. This book will be the go-to guide for trumpet players to know how to start preparing for and building their careers within music, with insights and stories from over 60 professional trumpet players working in the business. This book will cover topics such as how to find gigs, the importance of relationships, how to prepare for specific musical opportunities, education, teaching, recording, summer camps, and a host of other need-to-know subjects to help you be successful in a career in music. You can find us and get more updates by following us on Instagram and YouTube under the name Modern Trumpeter. You can also visit our website, modern trumpeter.com, for more information, as well as get on our mailing list. The book is expected to be completed at the end of 2026. If you like this podcast, please share it with a friend and comment your favorite moments or stories from this episode below. And now here is my interview with Liesel Whitaker. Hey everybody, welcome back again to the Modern Trumpeter Podcast. Today we get to speak with Liesel Whitaker. Liesel, thank you so much for taking some time to chat with us today.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

It's nice to be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Thanks for asking me. So to get going, can you first tell us a little bit about your first experiences with the trumpet and the moment you knew you wanted to pursue it as a career?

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Well, my first experiences of the trumpet were uh I was pretty much I was completely self-taught. I switched over to French horn when I was in in high school or eighth grade or something like that. I um I only switched over because uh we I went to a small private Catholic school that ended up being so small that it ended up closing because of lack of enrollment. And we had literally one trumpet player in the band, and um he was the nice kid, but he couldn't play the trumpet, so I thought I could play better than him. So I stole my brother's trumpet, taught myself how to play from French horn and challenged him, and that's how I became a trumpet player. It was purely ego-driven because I thought I could do it better. So and also because in the eighth grade the French horn parts were pretty boring for me at that time. So I was bored. And that's not to say that French horn is boring, it's actually one of the hardest instruments that you can choose. Um I just thought I could be uh a better trumpet player than this kid, and so like I said, completely ego-driven, self-centered, but that's how I ended up being a trumpet player.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

That is the best trumpet origin story I think I've ever heard. That's true. Uh and so what happened then? You when you be you became the first trumpet, and then uh you it must have it stuck, obviously. What kind of happened next year?

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Yeah, it stuck. Um, my parents uh moved me from that small town into uh a larger area where I no longer was like the only trumpet player. I was one of about 30, and so ended up having to challenge my way up from the very bottom chair because that's how high school worked back then. I don't know if it still works like that these days where you have to challenge your way up to the top chair, and then and then I just you know just kept playing. Um I guess you could say I made a conscious decision in a way that I became a music major, but honestly, it was just the best thing that I was at good at. I I never saw it, I never saw a life where I wasn't playing the trumpet. And so it just kind of turned into a career for me. It wasn't like I heard a bunch of great players and was like, oh, I want to be like that. It wasn't the case at all because I was completely self-taught. It just was something I really loved to do, and the career kind of unfolded for me. And all those things that you mentioned in that little pre-talk of those little gigs, I've done all of that stuff as in a way to make a living over the years to support myself, and all of that is part of the process, I believe, in in becoming a professional is you know, getting yourself, throwing yourself into as many fires as possible and and and you know, extracting any learning moment musically and otherwise from those things that you can take to the next to the next scenario, the next step. It's kind of an ongoing, you know, add add little things to it as you go until you become a better and better player. And then for me, and I think for a lot of people, the the path kind of well, maybe I can't speak for a lot of people, but for me, it really just kind of unfolded in front of me, really, because of those choices.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

So yeah, well, and I'm excited to dig into all of that stuff here. So if we're running in a timeline here, you never really considered doing anything else, but also it just kind of happened because it was what you were the best at. How did that influence your decision of like where to go to school? And uh like and did you graduate with a degree? Did you get a master's? Let's kind of talk about formal education.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Well, formal education, I my parents, you know, when I said they moved me from that little school that was little schools in Kansas, they moved me to North Carolina, a little bit bigger community. And at the time when by the time it came time for me to graduate, I was looking to go to school and get any kind of scholarship I could. And so I got a scholarship to the local college. Well, it wasn't locals, two hours from my home, but at Appalachian State University in North Carolina, they gave me a a full scholarship to go study there. Um, and that's how I was able to go to school. Um, full disclosure, I never graduated. I left school early because I had an opportunity to um audition for um a band in New York, and I won the audition and then just threw myself into the New York fire right away. And so that became my school. So I don't have a college degree, quite honestly.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah, so and maybe going that route a little bit. So obviously, you've had a phenomenal career and you're still going um and you haven't had the degree, and uh, there's several players that are also in the a similar boat where they haven't finished a degree and they're they're doing great. What are your thoughts on for young players as far as schooling goes? Is it important? Should they seek that? Should they be doing a master's doctorate, or how can it inf influence their career?

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Well, there's a lot of ways to answer that. Right now, we're in a kind of funny, funny, uh, we're in a funny, funny uh world that we're living in right now. So for me, the the college scene academically, you know, it wasn't that I intended not to finish. I had a lot of family stuff going on at home that forced me to go in and out of school. I had to drop out and go deal with taking care being a caretaker for my my parents, things like that crept up. For me, it was a great opportunity. I'm not saying that that's the best way for for everybody, but the the doors open differently for everybody. And so for me, the doors that opened were always a direct result of the choice I had made before. That doesn't mean that there's a right choice, it just means that for me, it worked out. There are some people that go get their full, you know, they go to school, they go get their undergrad, they get their master's, they get their doctorate, and they do fine. They teach music. Well, I don't, you know, they they go perform whatever. Every everybody has different doors that open. But for me, um, I never turned down an opportunity in college to play. And I get really kind of frustrated with professors that kind of cement their students into the academ academia all the time. You're in school to learn how to play the instrument. And if you have an opportunity to go play the instrument and make money, I believe you need to explore that. And I really think that professors should do everything they can to accommodate that if that's what the what the student is majoring in, if it's a performance degree or whatever, because that experience is what is what you draw from, you know, like I said, all those all those experiences that I had as a younger person playing in all those different scenarios gave me gave me information of how to be a better trumpet player, how to do things differently, how to do things more authentically. You know, what is expected of me as a professional and how do I take care of my personal professional business? Because there is a business side to being musician. You know, you have to answer the phone, you have to communicate with people, you have to show up on time, you have to wear the right thing, you have to be able to get along with people. You know, all those things are part of the business and your business, your particular business. And so when we go on gigs, we learn about that. We even learn some things that maybe we learn from other people and from their mistakes. You know, I've I've been on gigs where people were constantly late, and after a while, they don't get called again. That's information. That's information for me to learn as a student of the of the of the music all the time and of the student of the of the music business. Um, you know, I'm never I you you never know what you're gonna learn. So I don't I don't I don't put a whole lot of um, you know, you gotta go and get this piece of paper. You must do that. That's I don't care about a timeline for me personally. And anybody that I talk to that I mentor, if they have some opportunity to go and play and create music or learn from something, I encourage them to do it every time. It doesn't mean you should quit school. It doesn't mean that's not what I'm saying. It's just for me, the opportunities and the doors that opened opened in a certain way that always led me to something different and something new, some pattern of growth. So everybody's different, you know. I also had a personal thing going on, like I said earlier with my family, where my mother needed a caretaker at some point. So that made was it wasn't that was something I had to consider in my in while I was growing up and going to school. Where where do I want to be? Do I want to show up for my family? What do I need to do? You know, so everybody has a different story, and there's not a there's not a perfect template. Um, there's a lot of ways to get from point A to point B. You don't have to go in a straight shot. And if you've interviewed a lot of people, I'm sure you've heard that, you know, many people have had very, very different paths, and they're doing fine, you know. So, and right now, this is a time where uh, you know, politically the world's on fire, you know, as as a young adult, a young male adult, I think there's a lot of things to consider about being in school right now. Um, I'll just speak between the lines. And so you it there are some advantages to being in school. Um, and so everybody's different. You just always have to reassess, try to try to remember what you're taking out of it. Is it going to be advantageous to you? Sometimes, sometimes the things that we uh that we never see coming end up being our biggest informants, you know, in our life. And and experiences, you know, eyes wide open kind of is the the way I look at it, you know, go into everything with your eyes wide open, even if you don't want to do it, you know, it might just you're gonna learn something. You're always gonna learn something.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

So yeah, that's absolutely when it when those opportunities came up for you when you were in school, like how did how did that happen? Were you actively seeking for those gigs, those opportunities, or were you referred, or and how can young players at in that age and time of their lives can find similar opportunities?

SPEAKER_03 11:13

Well, for me, when I was in Cincinnati in school, I eventually transferred in the University of Cincinnati. When I was there, I I went out to the jazz clubs every night. I went out to hear the big band every night. I I I I introduced myself to those trumpet players, I introduced myself to the band leaders and anybody that you know, just tell them what I'm doing, what I'm you know, if I could ever help them out. And and eventually, you know, someone will call you. And for me, uh, it ended up being with the Blue List Big Band. I'd go out every Wednesday night here the band, I'd hang out long enough, and they'd they'd have a few beers and they'd be like, Hey, you know, I kind of want to go home. You want to play the second set for me? And I'd just sit in, you know, things like that. That's how you and and and I I'm not saying I was great, you know. That's I had uh the drummer at the time was a guy named John von Olin, and and he was also an instructor at the university. So every time I got to play with him, it was a lesson. And because he was on the faculty, he knew that that was important that I play, even if it if it was rough around the edges, you know, because that's where we cut our teeth, you know. By we we learn the most by kind of walking on the gigs and getting our butts kicked, you know. Yeah, and that's really that's that's that's just the way it is, you know. It's like anything, even you know, doctors, they they they go to they go to internships. That's how they learn, you know. It's just kind of our little internship to be sitting in with bands and trying to play wherever you can. And that's part of taking care of your business. It's like giving out your your your business card, you know. So that's that's how I did it when I was in school. And I was lucky that I had faculty members that also had had that same belief that if you're teaching teaching kids to be performers, then you don't deny them the opportunity to perform, even if it didn't, you know, even if they might miss a miss a test, they might miss a presentation. So you reschedule, you work it out because that's why they're there. Um, at least that's what I believe. So I was fortunate that I had people in my corner like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Yeah, absolutely. It makes sense to me. I think there's certain things about the college and university like setup as far as music goes that it could change. And I think you're like, you're totally I think you're totally right.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

Where it's like like if you want to be a performance major, like and you have an opportunity, like go to Yeah, because kids are gonna learn more in that three hour performance than they're gonna learn sitting in a ha half a semester of your class, you know. And it's just like I said, you learn a lot from other people's behavior too. And you learn about how other people play, you learn about the things that work for them, the the what things that they're practicing, what it takes to be, you know, what what it kind of shines a light on your own deficiencies when when you're playing with better players, and it's always the best scenario when you can be the worst player in a in a in a band because you are always going to get better.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, absolutely. And that's like, yeah, I think you're totally right. Let's see. So you never graduated and and so you auditioned for a band in New York. What was that band and what was that experience and opportunity like?

SPEAKER_03 13:52

That was the Diva Jazz Orchestra, all women big band. We auditioned in '92, and I was picked, and and it was a great experience. It's been a big part of my story, and um, I learned a lot, you know, just just because I was I I was 23 when I when I got that gig. And so I was very, very young. I was very, very green and very raw. So being thrown into that, it was an awesome opportunity because we didn't we were a brand new big band. We didn't have we had people writing just for the band, and we didn't have a sound that we were trying to copy. We were doing our own thing. And what what a great situation for a lead player to be able to come into a band and just create a sound, you know, and that's what I got to do. And I I realized that, you know, the older I get, that there are not many people that had that opportunity in their lifetimes as trumpet players and lead trumpet players, but I did. And so along with the drummer, we got to shape the entire, you know, signature, sound signature of that band. And that was that was pretty cool. So I I I in a way I couldn't I couldn't be wrong because I wasn't being compared to anybody, you know what I mean? So you could just listen to that band and you could know that that was us because we didn't sound like anybody else. That was a great um, that was a great opportunity. I you know, I I I feel very fortunate to have had that happen to me. Yeah, and do you still play with them? On occasion I do. Um I've gotten pretty busy and it's it's hard for me to get away. And honestly, you know, it's hard to move a big band, so big bands don't work as much as they used to. You know, I'm talking about like early 90s. This is I'm a little older. So um, you know, it was a different time back then. It takes a lot of money to move a big band, so they they don't they're a rare creature. A good big band that's out out touring and everything is hard to find.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Which is unfortunate. I've I've heard so many stories of some of these older players where they've been on the road with Buddy Rich or Stan Kenton or or any of these other big bands, and like, man, that means they were gone. It's like that's it's so unfortunate because that was like how so many people were cutting their teeth back in the day. It was like you get a gig with Woody Herm, and you're out on the road, and like that for those six months or a year, or like that's how you really got the education.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

And I'm like, ah, it's it's it's unfortunate that it wasn't just a musical education, but we were also networking with one another. We were meeting people along the way, we were playing together. And one cool thing about Diva was they did it pretty old school. Like in the we had a huge book. We must have had, I mean, uh maybe a hundred charts, and we never knew from one night to the next what charts to be playing. She would literally make the set list on the bus and we'd play. So it was not unusual to pull up a chart that you hadn't played in six months. So it you know, it it keeps you on your toes, and and it makes made me become made all of us become better players because you know, we always were had to be be paying attention, and and you know, that that was important. That was an old school thing. And because, like I said, we had people writing for the band for the first time, they wrote it old school way. You know, there was a time when you in Duke's band we you would pull it, there would be a Kat Banderson part, there'd be a Clark Terry part. They didn't say Trumpet 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, they said cat, they said Clark on the part. And that's what they did for us. My parts said Liesel on my on my part, you know, they were written for us specifically, which helped give the band a really unique signature sound, too. They played on everybody's strengths, so that's super cool.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

And so when from a business standpoint, I guess you know, you get this uh opportunity to play with the diva jazz orchestra, uh, moved to New York. Was that like a full-time gig, part-time? Kind of what did you have to do to make it part-time gig, it was definitely a part-time gig.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

Before I was doing cruise ships out there doing that, and just kind of got tired of uh being on the on the on the ship. Diva was not a full-time gig at first. It was it was definitely very part-time, very sporadic. And I literally, when I first moved to New York, I worked in a bakery, you know, seven days a week. And and I went down to the union hall when I first under the advice of Byron Stripling, I went down to the Union Hall. I handed out my business card back when we used to do business cards. This is before cell phones and all that stuff. And the same thing I was talking about. I said, hey, if you ever need somebody for a rehearsal, I'm here, you know, anybody to sub on a show. You know, again, word of mouth travels pretty quickly. You get one call, you do a good job, you get two calls the next time, you know. And so that's how I broke into the scene. Just being around and being, you have to be willing to work for no money. And that happens for years. And so, unless you have the cash flow, which I didn't, you take other gigs and you do what you can. It's just like being an actor in New York, they all wait tables and 10 bars and do temp work, you know, on the side until they get a break, until they can support themselves exclusively acting. And we do the same thing as musicians. It's a gig, it's a gig economy. And so you never burn a bridge if you can avoid it, and you might have to do you know a lot of other things that that wasn't that wasn't part of the plan when you started, but that makes it into your plan, whether you want it to or not. Again, we're we're a survival mode at that point, right? So we gotta we gotta do what we have to do.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Yeah, and I I love hearing you say that because I I think at least when I was younger, in my mind, it was like I'm gonna play trumpet, I'm gonna get a degree, and I'm gonna be gigging and full-time trumpet, and it's gonna be great. And it's like, well, eventually, like or like like you had to work seven days a week in a bakery to survive for uh how long, how many years did you have to do that for?

SPEAKER_03 18:56

Oh, I only did that for a year or two, and then things start opening up, and then I, you know, diva got more busy and I started doing more, I started subbing on Broadway a lot. So I was able to and in club dates, I started doing a lot of club date work, did a few salsa bands, you know. Just don't pigeonhole yourself, you know, and and you'll be okay. You just go, you just do everything you can. If they call you for a salsa gig, you might not have ever done a salsa gig. You'd say, Yeah, I'll I'll be there. Well, I'll do it. You know, that's how you do it. I've never done a Broadway show. Okay, I'll be there. You know, I've never done a club date. Sure, I'll show up. You want me to do the ceremony too? Well, I don't know how to play piccolo trumpet, but I'm gonna get a hold of one and I'm gonna learn it real quick, you know, for you. I'll do that, you know. You just pretty much say yes to everything you can, and that's your education, that's your professional induction into the business, and and and that's how you get your chops. And and I mean chops widened by by you know all your all your bags of bag of tricks, you know. That's how that's how you learn the stuff. And um, and that's that's paying your dues, and everybody has to pay their dues at some point. Nobody gets out free. You might get a break for a little while, but everybody has to pay your dues. So if you're impatient, then you're gonna have a tough time. But if you understand that going in, and that's part part that they don't explain to you in school, is that it's gonna take a long time to to get into a scene. You might I said you might get a lucky break here or there, but eventually you're gonna have to pay, and everybody pays them.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

And that's yeah, and that's why I I like I love what I love what you're saying. In school, it's like, yeah, I never heard like, yeah, it's gonna take a minute or like you're gonna have to do this.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

I mean, you remember school is a very it's a it's a bubble, right? It's a very controlled bubble, and it's an academic bubble. These we have teachers that are teaching, and and many of them love what they do, and some of them don't. You know, some of them are doing it because they're trying to pay their rent too. That's their bakery job, you know. Everybody, but but you know, think about how many people graduate from from from music school. Let's just just say trumpet players every year across the country. There's got to be hundreds, right? Well, if if the professionals are having a hard time make making a living, then why are all these hundred people just jumping on the scene going to suddenly be able to support themselves? It's it's false information, quite honestly. And I honestly think they should be teaching classes about that in college, about you know, how to go out there and get the gigs or how to how to get your number out or how to how do you behave on a gig because they don't teach that. How do you play in a big band section? I don't hear a whole lot of that going on in in in in college either. I work with a lot of young players in all kinds of different bands that that are might be really decent soloists, you know, good up and coming soloists, have no idea how to play in a suck in a section and they're terrible at it. And it's not a disc, they just nobody ever taught them. And so that's a problem. And and I also meet a lot of the young trouble players that come out of school that don't play their horns very well. But they can play lyrics, but they don't play their horns well. So they they get in these four-hour club dates and they're dead in half an hour because they have no idea how to play at that level and at that intensity. And so it's a big disservice, if I'm if I'm being honest, if you ask me, that if you're paying all this money to go to college, thousands of dollars a semester, and you're not even learning how to play your horn, that's a problem, you know, because that's a dis disservice to the student, because that's a rude awakening when they get out. And now you've got four years you've got to go try and make up in in basic musicianship and basic pedagogy. you know you're already behind you know it doesn't matter if you can play you know a gazillion licks if you can't get through a half an hour of a club date who's gonna hire you exactly yeah those those club dates are like I remember doing some of the first ones and I'm like whoa this is this is a lot I have to pay myself more yeah it's an it's it's they're all different and every every gig you do I mean I I have trouble now because I play so many shows when I go out to play lead I've got to I've got to actually you know it's hard because those those that muscle is is not as strong as it used to be because I don't do it as much. So when I go out to play lead I've got to actually start preparing for it now weeks in advance because you know I it's it's just a different kind of playing than show playing and it it's everything is different.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Yeah absolutely and that's that's another you know that's actually another question. So like um so you've you've been doing everything you know you can play all these different styles and genres and you get called for so many things. Would you say that lead playing is what you're you're the skill you're most known for? Probably yeah. And how do you being a lead player myself like how do you keep keep your chops in good enough shape so what when that call comes you can deliver on what people are expecting.

SPEAKER_03 23:07

Well when I was younger it was a lot easier because I just was playing when I would I mean I was in the army army 21 years doing lead work and that's all I did was play lead for 21 years. So it wasn't a problem. I was always locked and loaded ready to go I was wound ready to just let it go. Now as I've retired from the army I don't do it seven days a week like I did. So now I and I play shows which is a different animal because um them you get to wear in ears so when you get to hear in ears you know you're under a microscope in in in your head all the time you can hear every single thing. When you're playing in a big band you don't always have that luxury in fact you're at you you fall victim to the halls. You know some halls are very difficult to hear in some halls are very easy and so some days you just struggle and struggle and struggle just to get the notes out of the horn because you're fighting a monitor situation or you know different different acoustics and at that point it's really this is why your fundamental playing has to be solid because at those points and in those situations you have to fall back into the sound that you have in your head and being able to back off and play where you know you play. And that's the biggest uh mistake we make as trumpet players is trying to muscle the hall and playing outside of our our heads so if we have a good good grip on on the sound of the instrument the instrument as a whole then we can back off and we can play when I say play inside our heads it just means backing off on volume and playing where you know that you have control over the instrument. And when you get into situations where you you um when you overplay like that that's where you expose all of your your shortcomings and so for me playing big band music is the hardest thing for me to keep like I said to keep up now because I do play in a show all the time and I have myself monitored in my in ears and I don't have to worry about that. For me playing big band music is the hardest thing I do now because I have to stop I have to put in extra time on the horn away from the shows acoustically and it's very difficult to recreate playing lead trumpet in your living room without stand there. And and that's probably the biggest challenge that I have now.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

I mean and that makes sense yeah if you're not doing it as much going back so you played lead trumpet for the army blues and the jazz ambassadors correct that's right and so can you walk us through the decision behind that of you know why you ended up auditioning for those groups and uh at at what point in in your career was that so I audition for the first of all those groups you're kind of uh you just have to be fortunate in a way to even get to audition because people get those gigs and they stay in them for 20 and 30 years.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

So they rarely uh open up. So I was fortunate that it did open up during the time where I was eligible to audition. So I that was very fortunate for me. So you are playing a tame that's the time game that that is just a a luck kind of thing. So you could be a great player and those gigs aren't open. If nobody's gonna leave the gig you can't audition for it, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

So um that's the first thing timing is important. And when I when I chose to audition for the Army Blues it was because I had been working in New York for several years and I was really frustrated because I I was subbing on a lot of Broadway shows and I was doing club dates and everything on all the Broadway shows I always did a good job. I I I'm I'm gonna I I don't I'm not one to uh toot my own horn so to speak but I I did do a good job. I I I never got a note as a as a sub on any Broadway show I came in I sounded just like the regular and I was working a lot and the the frustrating thing for me was that after so many years guys were coming into town they were they were doing okay and they were getting the call for the chair holder before I was but I had been there longer I was doing a great great and that that told me that something else was going on. And I honestly believe that it was because I was a woman period. I don't know how any any way other any other way but this is back in the 90s and it was a different time you know there weren't many the Lori frink was alive still then and she was playing but I don't know that she had ever been a a a lead shareholder in one of her shows. I think she'd always gotten called for third or second and she was a great player and that was just too bad. And so when the opportunity for the blues came around they called to ask if I'd be interested in audition and the first time I got the call I just hung up the phone. My my husband was an ex-British Royal Marine. He's like no I'm not going back to the military. There's no way and so I ignored the call and then they called again a couple weeks later a week later whatever and I took the call mistakenly and didn't recognize the number and they kept me on the phone for a couple hours and started to think wow this sounds like a pretty good gig and so that's how I I auditioned for that gig and honestly the thing that appealed me the most about it was that I would get paid the same amount of money as the men were getting paid. Because in the army you get paid by your rank. You don't get paid you get the promotion you all get the same it doesn't matter if you're a man or woman across the board. I thought well this is a living as a woman and and get the same amount of pay and support my future family and that was why I did it. I was lucky lucky luckily I won the audition and then that that's where I I went and uh it worked out nicely for me. And I I got to play all the time I got to play with uh some great players the band was the the army blues of the early 2000s was a great great great band it was a fantastic band. You know it it was just uh it was I can't say enough good things about it. I had a great experience doing that. Yeah and I've I've been fortunate to talk to so many people Brian McDonald Josh Kaufman uh Kevin Burns Allie Albrecht like so many of those players and many across the field bands as well like uh and I've just been kind of convinced more and more that the military route is one of the best ways you can go as a musician because of all of the benefits the the pay despite like inflation or covet and stuff like there's so many benefits to that gig can you talk a little bit more about that and how that helped how those benefits helped you in a career by definition the military is probably the most professional musician job that you can get I mean you're getting a salary it doesn't matter if I go to work or not I get paid it you know I have full benefits health benefits my my children were born in army hospitals my my health insurance I still even after as a retiree I have a uh I have a decent health health program because of of the military at that time there was the GI Bill the post 911 GI Bill came came out which allowed my my son to go to college for free because it was transferable my daughter will go to college for free because her father was also active duty and got that same benefit. So that that alone is worth so much the medical benefits of being able it's it's socialized medicine. People get were scared of the word socialism but um in the military it works. It's not ideal but I don't know of any ideal system anywhere. Sometimes the weights are longer but it's paid for and that's a huge perk especially nowadays. Like I said I I don't need to state anything politically I don't know what the climate is now in the military. I don't know if it's the same but for when I was there it was probably the best gig I could have asked for yeah that's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

And so how long were you in the blues for before deciding to audition for the jazz ambassadors? I was at the blues for 12 years.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

12 years okay and what was the reason for you to audition for the jazz ambassadors then my daughter's father was also in the in the army band and we needed a different schedule and it just worked out uh for me to audition I won that the jazz ambassadors audition and just moved over my pay didn't change it it just I just changed units you know my job changed a lot but my my my pay didn't change at that point 12 when you have 12 years in and you know the cement kind of hardens you gotta you gotta get to your 20. You know what I mean? It's like you can do anything and to get to that 20 and that's what I decided to do. I decided to go ahead and take that risk and and you know go out on the road for for the last eight years on and off. It ended up being a good decision for me.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Okay great that makes that makes sense and I um I remember Kenny had said that you are the first ever and the only lead trumpet player between the two bands in the history of the history of either group yeah that you've been in both that's that's awesome. That's incredible to be able to say like I said I've been pretty fortunate. Yeah that's that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

So what was for those who are considering like auditioning for the military and trying to get into some of these one of these bands what's the difference between the ambassadors and the blues and how does that impact uh somebody's decision and which one they're auditioning for if they're trying to audition for both the field band is exactly what it let me start back me back up the the blues are part of the army the army band which is Pershing zone in Washington DC and their mission is to support the national capital region primarily so in the army band the big overall umbrella of the army band you have the blues which is the 18 piece big band you have the concert band which is I don't I don't even I can't even tell you the numbers anymore but it's typical concert band uh numbers you had a a string an orchestra a small orchestra they have a men's chorus which is very very good um I think now it's a mixed chorus I think one of the commanders changed it to a mixed chorus and then you had a a rock band called Downrange which uh it was more public uh public outreach than anything and then you have the army band which is a ceremonial band which um one of their biggest missions is uh taking care of ceremonies at Arlington Cemetery and other kinds of diplomatic um events that that come up around the national capital region so they send the ceremonial band out for that would it be a uh an arrival of a a diplomat like a wreath at the the tomb of the unknown just different uh various functions around Washington DC where there's you need you need military support uh music support lots of different things at the ceremony but the primary mission of the ceremonial band was was funerals at Arlington Cemetery and at the time that I got in was we were burying a lot of the World War II uh veterans because it just happened to be the time timeline and it comes in waves you know they get really busy during these certain like then then it was the Korean vets and then it the Vietnam vets and then now we're getting into some of the more recent wars where we're having to inter more and more veterans and that that's a big mission of theirs. Now the army blues would work as the blues when when we could but we still were a supportive group in that overall picture. So if there was a lot of ceremonies that came in then we would shut the blues down to go support the ceremony. So I did a lot of funerals out in Arlington Cemetery whether it's just me going out there with the a trumpet or a bugle and playing taps or sometimes with a full on a funeral band I did a lot of those um and that if you're talking about like you know headspace that can be difficult if you're not prepared for people have to get kind of numb to that because when you're burying people every day three four times a day it can be kind of a downer and you see some sad stuff. And I did certainly see a lot of sad things while I was there. But I felt like that was a very important part of my job and I'm very proud that I did do that. You know, even though it was hard I'm proud that I that I you know was able to inter a lot of soldiers with honors. That makes me feel good. And when I went over to the to the jazz ambassadors they're part of the field band and that's exactly what that word means they go out in the field. So our mission was to tour and to be go out to the grassroots and be kind of a conduit between the public and the army and to wear the uniform to to play music at the highest level so that when these these people could go into these concerts and see the uniform they could they could relate to maybe their their son or daughter is out you know serving in Iraq or Afghanistan or wherever they might be and they can say you know well I'm proud of that because look at this level of art that that these soldiers are bringing to me. And if that's the level that the army operates at then I can feel good about my soldier son or daughter you know representing the country doing whatever they do because I know they're doing it at the highest level and and that was kind of our mission.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Yeah that's that's great. And so after 20 years retire because that's when you get your pension that's when you get the benefits and everything for the rest of your life I know some people continue on in their career and continue to advance and rank and leadership and whatnot. What was your decision behind that of retiring at 20 instead of trying to continue on to 30?

SPEAKER_03 34:45

Well I I retired actually three months short of my first anniversary and I the simple it's simple I was broken. I I broke my my body I took my I took my physical fitness requirements very seriously I was an avid runner I worked out all the time because you know what they don't tell you when you go into uh the army field then maybe they say it really quietly oh kind of like that or they put it in small prints is that tell you that your backup your backup job is you're an MP and so you know if if if you know the shit really ever hits the fan, you know, they don't need a band. They need MPs. So we've never had to do that although at the Pentagon on 9-11 we did go into the Pentagon and we were part of the the search and rescue we were part of the the recovery mission we were down there on site I wasn't I was pregnant at the time but all my peers were down there we're making name tags some of some of our we had some of our guys that were actually in the building helping with some of the rough stuff. So in times of conflict and crisis there's a good chance you won't be a musician. But we haven't hit that yet I say knock on wood you know ever since 9-11 have we ever come that close so I think it's still a pretty safe job but there is that possibility that being said I did take my physical fitness very seriously I I I was I was I was always prepared fitness wise for anything they might throw at me and after 20 years of of running miles and miles and miles and you know doing a gazillion pushups and and then even being part of the ceremonial band and marching through you know people don't understand how hard that is to march they think it's really easy because you're just kind of going slow. No you guys are these those guys those guys tear their bodies up they're they're marching on uneven ground every day they twist ankles they hurt their feet they get you know it's really difficult to stand still in 90 degree heat for half an hour at a time you know that that hurts your back it hurts your knees it hurts those guys really I don't think anybody really understands except for them how physically difficult it is to be part of that ceremonial unit. And so the army is physically demanding you can get by with doing less but I don't know why you would want to because if you know the crisis ever happens again I don't I don't want to be unprepared. Yeah yeah so I I took it very seriously.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

So quite honestly I broke I just broke I needed to go damn it I wanted to have a life after the army I didn't want to that's fair that's fair yeah yeah that makes sense so yeah what are some other things that you could say about being in the military bands that are like the that young players should also consider you know we've talked about all these benefits and how great it is and then you've talked about the physical fitness side of it and just like how exhausting it can be what are some other things that's like hey well keep in mind if you get a military gig this is also is part of it.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

Well I mean yeah it I don't think I need to say the quiet part out loud I mean look at the world we're we're in a conflict right now nobody knows what that's going to lead to there's talk about drafting there's talk about a lot of things right now I don't know what it's gonna be. I'm glad I did my time I'm glad I did it when I did because I didn't have to worry about that. But if you're considering a career in the military music program you need to think about those. You need to be okay with that you need to be okay with being told that you're gonna go you might not be playing an instrument that might be a reality right now. Like I said I've never been in this situation and none of us have so we don't know just be able to understand that there's a lot more to being in the military right now than just just going out to Arlington and and playing some funerals. You know there's there's a lot of other things and for for that to understand that you would probably have to talk to somebody who's actually there and I would recommend talking to them off record because you can't freely speak about these things in the military. You're not allowed to have a political opinion publicly anymore. So all the social media stuff that you might be really highly involved in when you go into the military that goes away because you can still do it but you're gonna get in trouble. You just you just can't have you can't be that guy because they don't want a conflicted army. They just don't want that. You need to be when the mission comes down you need to be ready to move and you need to be ready to go. So if you're okay with that, great. If not you want to think twice about it. But one great thing is you know if you're young and you're looking for a gig and the opportunity the timing works out and you can win an audition you know think about it because you're getting paid to stay in shape. You're getting paid a paycheck as soon as you go off to boot camp. You're getting a paycheck and that's important right now. You're getting your health care taken care of or I don't think the retirement plan is the same as it used to be when I was in you just had to do your 20 and you got your your pension. Now now there's a blended retirement system that where I think if you go in even for like 10 years you can still get something out of it. Before you couldn't you know you had to do 20 but now there's it's called a blend blended retirement system where where they pay into it and if you get out after five years or 10 I don't know if there's a minimum you have to do to collect off that but you know you can do less than 20 and still get something back which is good. And when you're a veteran you have veteran status for you and your dependents your spouse becomes your dependent even though there may not be my my husband Kenny Rampton is a completely self-made you know professional musician but he's considered my dependent by the military. So that means he has an ID and he can go use I I still use job at the commissary which is tax free I should I fill my car up on post which is cheaper gas you know I have I have access to the veterinarian to the framing you know all these little things that you don't think about that I now have access for the rest of to for the rest of my life and him too because he's my dependent and my children as well. So that there's a lot of perks that go in that are that come out of it if you can do it. Again I'm not active duty now it's a different time I don't tell anybody they should take a gig and I don't tell anybody not to take a gig but be aware do your homework there's a lot of unknowns there now that I can't uh I can't answer.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Sure sure yeah well that no that's super helpful that makes a lot of sense I think there's so many benefits to it and it's like yeah those little things of pending that's great too I didn't think about that. So yeah overall it's like I think that's one of the best ways to go right now but it's also what you're bringing up about just the world of right now and everything like that's also a good thing to to consider and and some things I I wasn't aware of which is yeah that's super helpful.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

Well it's not just about the military. I mean think about let's take it out of the context of the military right now the whole world is is changing and we have AI right now going on and my son is uh you know he's gonna be 25 this year and he's he's gone to school and gotten a degree and and and and he's finding now that degrees are worthless you know because they are hiring AI to do these these these entry level jobs. And that's a problem. When you go out and you spend you know several hundred thousand dollars in some cases on a college education you get out to only find out that that uh that an AI programmer or whatever is gonna is going to take your job that's that's not good. And so uh having this discussion with my son several times about you know it's and my daughter who's getting ready to go to college soon, you know, gets get your hands on something. Do something be interested in something that only you know a human can do. If that means hands-on jobs manual jobs blue collar jobs things that you know I don't know what that exactly looks like um i i in music we've been we've been okay so far but there's a lot of you know artificially produced music too and so be smart you know think ahead don't just think about the next year the next two years the next four years think about the next 10 years the next 15 and 20 because the world is changing so fast and um don't I wouldn't you know I would never say never say never right I mean you don't just don't know like there was a point in my life where like I said my husband said no we're never going back to a military military lifestyle and here I am 21 years out of you know a career in the military. You know you just never know. Don't say never no don't ever and that's another bigger lesson for you know anything you do whether it's music or not you never burn a bridge because you just never know what the world's going to turn into. So you do everything you can not to burn a bridge.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Yeah yeah 100% because there's so many you never know when you're gonna have to cross that chasm again.

SPEAKER_03 42:30

That's right you never know who's gonna show back up in your life and that's another thing that's been really proven to be true in my in my many years is that the people that I met in college that I thought oh you know I'm gonna get out of here and I'll never see them again. No, they they pop up they always do.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Oh that's good to know I had that somewhere in the book of like they're gonna show up again at some point. And so after the military obviously you lived in the DC area and whatnot. So then you just got out and decided to move back to New York get back into the scene.

SPEAKER_03 42:59

Well I didn't yeah after the military I was retiring around the end of the pandemic and um we were kind of shut down as a field band because we couldn't tour because the world was closed down. I was actually as an active this is what I'm talking about. As an active duty soldier I was stocking the commissary with groceries every day for months because that's where we were needed. Because you never know we weren't playing and we weren't touring but we were stocking groceries and some point we were delivering medications for the pharmacy. You know you never know what they need. You're in the army you belong to the army you know you don't have as much control. But when I was retiring from the military I didn't know what I was going to do but the pandemic was raging. So I went back to school and I got a phlebotomy certification and became a phlebotomist and so right after I retired I worked at a bl at a blood bank for a year and a half or so drawing people's blood and plasma and and and everything I could do to because I wanted to help. I wanted to do something to be part of the solution you know with the pandemic. And so I did that and then while I was doing that I got a call from a friend of mine, another person who showed up after 30 years of not seeing them and said, Hey, I'm contracting a show. Would you like to do it, the development? I said, sure. And so I ended doing the development. That was Mr. Saturday night starring Billy Crystal. I went up to excuse me, to Massachusetts for for uh uh a development and did that. And then when it moved to New York, because I'd done the development, I got first choice in um in turning doing the show. So I did that. I thought I was just gonna do that show and go back to the hospital. But while I was doing that show, another show came in for development, and that was Sun Like It Hot. And they said, Hey, well, we're contracting this too. You did that, you did a good job. Would you like to do some like it hot? And I said, I would love to do that. And that's how it started. One thing just kind of led to another, too, led to another. But that's what I mean. That's how the business works. You know, one door closes, another opens. And I didn't really make the conscious choice to move to New York. It just kind of kept these doors kept appearing and opening. And so I just kept going through them until eventually, you know, I met Kenny and we ended up getting married, and I moved up here, and then I've been doing this ever. I'm on my fourth show now, and I've been doing fine, you know. And so it it it just, you know, I think one of the the hardest things about being in school and being a young person is trying to have it all figured out. And I've realized that you really don't have to have anything figured out. You know, you really don't. And it's kind of a it's it's kind of a freeing, freeing way to live. It's sure it's a little scary, but you know, if you're smart and if you you take care of those those relationships and you try not to burn any bridges, then uh you're gonna be fine. And if you have a good supportive family, you know, you can you know lean on in times if nothing else, just to call them up and say, hey, just let me talk, you know. That that's support systems are are important. And um so yeah, it's just you just never know. Don't be too worried about having a having a grand plan because almost 95% of the time the plan doesn't work out anyways. Yeah. The plans are what what is the saying? Plans are what you make when you're when you're dealing with life and you're going through life, you know. Best made plans, you know, you you're still going through life. You still got to deal with life first.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

Yep, a hundred percent. And that's it's sounds like that's been the case for you throughout your whole career.

SPEAKER_03 46:05

Yeah, because they've been talking is like, oh, because of this, and well, you're doing this, and now we're pivoting to this, and it's like that's why it's important to take, you know, take advantage of every situation playing wise or whatever that you even if he's not playing, you know, and your friend has an opportunity to do something that you never thought you'd do, go do it. You you just don't know. You just it might be nothing, but you'll remember it and and you might learn something from it that has nothing to do with music, but that you might take that lesson into something that is music related, or it might inspire you to write something, or it might inspire you to, you know, to to to deal with a person in a different way. These are all experiences, and that's that's what life is, is having experiences. So any chance you have to have a different experience or something, even if it's something that you never saw yourself doing, go do it.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

You know, yeah, absolutely. No, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 46:52

Especially when you're young and you don't have kids and and mouth to feed or whatever, you know, that's you're free. Just just do it.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Yeah, yeah, it's a whole different it's a whole different ball game when you have kids or have uh have somebody you need to take care of as opposed to just yourself. So yeah, that's been the case for me as well. And it's everything's been great, it's been working out, but it's like okay, I have to think about if I'm gonna do this gig, if it's gonna only pay this much, or different things because of different family relationships and whatnot. So yeah, totally understand.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

But sometimes we do gigs not for the money, right? We do them for the experience. Because I I've done many gigs where I I I didn't make any money, but I got to play or stand next to somebody that it was important for me to hear them or I needed to meet them, you know. I needed to it's not always about the money, and that's you know, those are the those are the the money sacrifices we make as freelancers, um, as g as gig workers, you know. You just never know, and you never know who's gonna show up at your gigs either. You know, you never know who's gonna Yeah, I I just played at Birdland on Friday night. I I feel in sometimes um I don't do it very often because you know I I like to leave those gigs for the the younger guys that really need the need the money, and not that I don't need the money, but you know, they need that experience. They need that for for a young guy in New York who's who's just recently married, has a baby, you know, it's everything to make a hundred bucks so we can buy diapers, you know. My kids are out of my kids are gone. They're they're you know, they're out of diapers, they don't have to worry about that. But you know, somebody else does, and so I don't do those gigs a lot. But this last Friday I did do that. And who's sitting at the bar? Randy Brecker. He comes in and he sits in, you know, it's you just never know who's gonna walk in. Sounds so cool.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. So we can talk a little bit about Broadway as we're wrapping up here. But uh so playing with Broadway, I think some of my first experiences were playing in the high school pit orchestra when we did, you know, White Christmas and Lay Miz and uh Music Man, and like it was a totally different experience of like sitting there, like we're waiting for we're not just playing music, like I'm waiting for these actors, and then spend 10-15 minutes not playing, and then they have to come in on a high note cold, and like, oh, this is a different skill, like I have to figure this out. Um and I'm like so grateful for those experiences because those have led to other opportunities later on professionally, but it seems like there's less and less of that available for um for kids and young musicians in school, whether it's high school or college, there's there's really not much training that I've seen at least for opportunities like that. And so, how can somebody best prepare for Broadway chops? Like you said, it's a different animal than playing lead trumpet or playing solo stuff. So, what are some ways that young players can prepare for those opportunities?

SPEAKER_03 49:39

Well, first of all, I would advise everybody who's interested in playing shows. I can't tell you how many people that I meet that that want to come and play and they want to do Broadway, and I say, okay, what's your favorite cast recording? And they can't tell me one that they've listened to. If you're not listening to the music, you're never gonna play it properly. So there's a certain, you know, kind of flair about Broadway. Broadway is, let's just face it, it's ridiculous. Everything about it is ridiculous. It's a ridiculous people standing up on stage singing and dancing about life, you know, that's not life. That's ridiculous. Even the even the pit orchestra has to be, it's not ridiculous, but everything is exaggerated, in my opinion. That's how I approach it. Anyways, you know, if you're gonna play, and this is where all the other gigs come in in handy, why it's important to take every gig. You need to go out and play club dates, you need to go play saucy gigs, you need to go play dance gigs, any any kind of thing that you can, because Broadway is made up of all of that. You know, there's there's a little bit of every flavor in a Broadway show. So that's where you get those tools. That's what, and then so when you when you get into Broadway when you're rehearsing and you see, oh, this goes into, you know, this goes into a Latin field. Okay, well, I know how to play that. Or this goes in and the show I'm doing now has this has a bunch of disco little disco little flip, you know, blips. And so if I'd never played a club dad, I wouldn't know how to play that music, you know. But I know how to play that. I know how that's supposed to be articulated, I know how that's supposed to sound, you know, and you just have to switch, you switch gears really fast. If you don't, if you only play one style one way all the time, you're never gonna sound like a Broadway show player because you're just gonna play flat, not not literally flat, but you're just gonna play this, you're just gonna play notes on a page. And music is not just notes on a page. No, music is so much more, and that's where you separate the great players from from the good players, is the people that can milk and get all that out of the all the music out of the notes on the page is where you're gonna find the best player. And and you get that from going out and playing as many different kinds of music as you can. Cruise ships, where you play all the big band stuff, and you turn around, you play show music, and then you go out and you might play a Dixie Lance set. You're doing all kinds of things. That's where you're paying your dues, that's where you're cutting your teeth and learning. That's why that's important. And Broadway when I say it's ridiculous, you know, is because it's because we just become an extension of what's going on on stage. And that's, you know, the consistency you're talking about sitting out for for, you know, we might sit for 20 minutes and have to come in on a high note. Well, if you're not practicing coming in on high notes at home, you know, you're never gonna be good at it. I mean, everything you do at home is preparation, you know, I say in the practice room for what you do on stage. So I have a lot of people that come to me, kids that say, Oh, I just don't understand how you know how you can do this without missing. Well, I practice it. I practice sitting in front of, you know, a music stand and playing. Literally, it's like I call them my free throws. I do my free throws, sit in front of a music stand and I practice one note over and over and over and over again until I can't miss it. And then when I jump into the show, well, why would it be hard for my mind? Because I've done that literally a hundred times in the last day in my practice room. So why is it any different when I walk into the show? It's not, it's right here. And so if I can get it rid of if I can make the physical response, you know, automatic, then that's way less for me to think about. And I guarantee you that the hardest thing you're gonna have, you're gonna joke, you're gonna deal with in your entire career is gonna be your own mind. So if we can get rid of all the physical limitations by making them as automatic as possible, then it frees our mind to deal with the real crap, the real, the real stuff that's really keeping us back, and it's all in our head.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense. Like, and what you're talking about is fundamentals, and I've I've always known it's like, yeah, fundamentals, you need to get fundamentals down. But thinking about it like that, especially that analogy of free throws, I'm like, whoa, that's like rock my world just now. This is it's all they are.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

They're free throws, and I will sit, I'll pick a note, and I teach this to my my men's too. I I I have a group of menes that I teach that, you know, that I work with them every every week. Um, we do that, you know, we just talk about one note. It can be, you know, you can change it up every week. Just make it one note. Maybe it's a G on top of the staff. Maybe it's uh maybe it's a uh you know a C sharp on top of the uh a second ledger line. You know, it just pick one and just and just do it over and over again. It's free throws, it's free throws for the trumpet, that's what I call it. Yeah, and uh you know it works, it works, it works wonders. And then once you can quiet your mind and then you get on the gig and you see it and you're like, you don't even think about it. It's like, well, this is just like I practice. Why would I and then if you miss it, well then here's the problem. Yeah, you know you can do it a hundred times in the practice room.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

So yeah, wow. I mean, like those are the kind of things that like I'm always looking for these little golden nuggets of like how to and that's like that's one of them that for me just now I'm like, wow, that's so I wish that I would have been taught more like that stuff of like, hey, like, you know, when you're when you're playing this big band chart or the show, like this is gonna happen. How do you do it? Like, let's like practice it like this. Um, and and maybe I would have gone to that. I I had an injury halfway through college and had to stop playing for eight months, and the rest of my time was rehabilitating and stuff, so we can focus on a lot of other things, but I'm like, man, if only I'd known some of this stuff, that like is so helpful.

SPEAKER_03 54:25

Yeah, well, you know, injuries are another thing. I've I've had to work through them myself, you know. So they're they're you know, when you're when you're not playing because of an injury, you have plenty of other things you can work on, that's for sure. But fundamentals is is the key to everything. And and I think that's something that we forget. We get out of college and we say, I don't have to be in the practice room anymore because I got my degree. No, this is the time you get to practice now more than ever because you're not getting called right away. You got nothing but time, you know, if if if you're trying to be a freelancer, this is what you should be doing. You should be doing your fundamentals, you should be constantly the fundamentals never stop. And that I think bothers a lot of people because they get in the practice room and they're like oh god, I gotta do this. You know, you should look forward to that because when you really practice fundamentals with intensity, you get better really fast. You really do. And uh, if you're if you're approaching your your your practice session like it's it's a chore, then you need to reframe how do you think about your practicing because that's where you're getting the work done, that's where you're doing the work. Yeah. A good relationship with your practice sessions.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

Yeah, yeah. Uh, let's see. With Broadway, I know we've talked a little bit about if you got a call and then you you show up, you do a good job, and then okay, contractor said, okay, I got another show coming up. You can do this and whatnot. And obviously, each show, I guess it depends on how long it goes for, but you know, it's eight shows a week, and you so you're playing a lot uh and whatnot. But it all kind of it sounds like it kind of depends on that first show or that first subbing or or whatever. It's like your first shot, and then if you biff it, you're out of luck for a long time. Is that more or less the case?

SPEAKER_03 55:56

Not necessarily. It doesn't, I mean, it depends on why you why you you might have had a bad show. Did you do a bad show because you didn't prepare, or did you do a bad show because you just missed a couple notes? Well, I can tell you right now that there's no perfect show. You plan on missing. You're gonna plan on, you need to plan on missing some notes because that's it's a high pressure gig and it just happens. We're human. So it's not the mistakes that turn conductors or contractors away. It's when you don't do your homework or you're not prepared. You're stepping in holes, you're you're coming in wrong, you're missing, you're missing entrances, you're you're coming in at the wrong tempo, you're getting ahead, you're not, you know, that's what gets you fired from a Broadway show. It's not it's not making the odd mistake once in a while because everybody made even the shareholders, we all make mistakes. You know, that that just happens. It's even the conductors make mistakes. Sometimes they just space out and they miss a cue. It just happens. That's not a problem. What's a problem is when you don't do your homework and you don't take care of business. Because again, we talk about this before, it's it's a business. You have to take care of your business. That's important. It's not just about playing Trump. I know guys that are great players, but will never, never hold a show because they can't be on time, you know, little things like that. Or I know guys that get shows and then they go into the subbing, subbing pool and they don't sub well because they don't prepare. They think, well, I'm just between shows, so I don't have to prepare. You know, no, man. If you're gonna sub, you still got to do a good job, even if you're between shows, because that's how you not get called again as a sub. I mean, if I'm gonna send somebody and they're not gonna do their homework, I'm not sending them again. It's as simple as that. Because that's a reflection of me and my chair. And if um if I'm not sending somebody who's professional, then you know that's a reflection on my way I do my business. You always always, always, always is a sub. You must do your homework. And if you don't and you don't get called back, then don't be surprised because you didn't you just didn't do the work. It's like college, man. It's no different, it's just an extension. You don't do the work for your test, you're gonna fail the test. This is your test.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

Yeah, yeah, that's a great way to put it. Well, and then like I think what is interesting about you said is like how you who you send also reflects on you. Like if you send somebody consistently who isn't getting it done, you're only only sending people who are not who are not rising to the level, like you might not get the next show, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 58:02

But it's also it's also it's a disservice service to the entire production, right? I mean, it especially on the lead trumpet player. If I'm sending a guy, a guy in or a girl and it's that's not gonna do a good job. Uh you have to remember that there's people on stage that are that are relying on things being exactly the same way every night, every show. They don't want change. When you do something wrong, when you chip a note, that affects them. And if they hear that, you know, and so it's not our our job is to make them to support them. It's a support role. Although I would argue that the the orchestra is somewhat of a character in the show because they they call it it's a musical, it's not a it's not a costumical, it's not a it's not a wigical, it's not a mythical, it's a musical. They rely on us and and they need us to be as as consistent as possible. And so if we screw something up, they hear that. And we don't want to have them crash on on stage. That's the worst thing that can happen is you screw up an actor. So it's important. You have to think about the overall production. When I first came onto the scene, I heard there was a group of guys that would say, Yeah, never send somebody better than you. I'm like, what are you talking about, man? I want them to be better than me. I want them to be great players because I want to I don't want the actors to know that I'm gone. Because as soon as they the best compliment a sub can get is like, I didn't know the regular was out today. That's the best compliment a sub can get.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that makes sense as a sub, but uh obviously like there's the preparation of part that I've heard of, you know, you learn the music, you learn the style, you sit and observe the show, and you have the cam conductor and whatnot. But if you have like a different core sound than the chair holder, like how can you step in and and make it seem like the chair holder isn't gone and get and get that compliment?

SPEAKER_03 59:39

Well, it's important you know, even even if your sound is different. I mean, that's not such a big deal. I mean, it's ideal that you really want to sound like the regular as much as you can. I wouldn't change anything I was doing to try to sound like as far as my production of my sound, I wouldn't do anything like that. But I would sure as heck make sure I'm not missing any notes, I'm not missing any entrances, I'm cutting notes off where I'm supposed to cut off, I'm not misleading the section or the conductor in any way. You know, so it's it's it's just just just play as much like the regular as you can.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Okay, that makes sense. That's great. Okay. No, this is this has been awesome. Okay, as we're yeah, wrapping up talking about your career and all these different experiences and and whatnot. Is there anything you know now that you wish you would have known when you were younger? Yes and no.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:23

No, because if I knew everything, then I wouldn't have taken the path I've taken. So I like to know that, like to think that I had to learn these things. I think the thing I would just be uh more conscious about is just not being so, you know, so worried about, you know, so worried about every little, you know, mistake I've ever made on a stage, because we all make them. You know, I I get pretty uptight, right? Historically, I've been pretty uptight about every I've always felt a lot of pressure as a female to to never make a mistake. And when I make a mistake, I'm pretty hard on myself. You know, and if I could have known back then that it really didn't matter as much as I thought it did, you know, I probably would have had a much nicer time. But um, you know, we're all our own worst enemies in so many ways. So I think just trying to be gentler on ourselves with the path that we're on and understanding that where we are is where we're supposed to be, you know, accept that with all the flaws and and mistakes, and just always knowing that, you know, the goal is to get better as not just a player, but as a person in the big world, and you know, trying not to hold space for the negativity. And, you know, it's gonna be okay. Not like I said earlier, don't get too wound up in our future because none of us know where we're going, and none of us know where the world's going right now. So, what a waste of energy to get so sucked into that. We'll just try to live one day, one hour, literally, sometimes it's one hour at a time, and not be quite so hard on ourselves for being human.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

Yeah, I I agree. Thank you for that. I actually had one last question that I was thinking of as we were talking about. What would you say to any young female trumpet players out there who are wanting to make it happen? Obviously, it's a different time now than when you were starting and Lori Frank and these people, but now we're seeing people like Grace Fox, uh, Summer Camargo, Kellen Hannes, and and others who are paving the way as well. But uh, what would you say to those young players who are looking at you, looking at these past uh female players like you know, Prius Comberg, Kiku Collins, so many of these other players, and they're like uh and they've been an inspiration. What would you say to them about um about trumpet and career and just and life and just anything?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:26

I think honestly, I think one of the biggest problems that women trumpet players, female trumpet players are having is isolation. And to combat that, I've started kind of a support group for female trumpet players, and we're very new. We don't even have a name yet, but I've I've opened up a a community of young female students and professionals to meet online once a month where they can talk to each other because I think that isolation is what hurts most young female trumpet players. They find they're the only one in their school, they're one of maybe one or two, they get isolated, they deal with all the pressure all alone. And the problem is that we're not all alone. We but we're very disconnected. So with this group, I'm trying to connect us. So if they're out there and they're feeling alone, find me online, find Kellen, find Grace, find they all know about this, they're part of this community and and reach out because we're here to support one another and to connect you so that you see that that they're that you're not alone. And I think there's a lot of power in that. And you know, I'll use this opportunity to say that to you in this somewhat public forum is that we are here um and we're looking for you to reach out to us so that we can connect each other and we can help you support group because there's a lot of issues that women trumpet players have that men don't have. And it's not trying to make us special, but they're real. There, there's things we deal with that men don't deal with, and that I think if I'd have known um other women when I was in college, I might have had a much easier time. I think that's why we lose a lot of young women um coming out of college that just stop playing, is because I think they just don't want to deal with the crap anymore that they deal with. And the truth is that they're not dealing with it alone. So find your connection, hang on to it, and look for more connection because it's important. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:11

Yeah, that's great. And that's well, when you have a a name for your group, please let me know so that I can share it and include it in the book. And would love to just get as many of these young female players connected as well. Because I'm thinking of different students I've had and some people that I know are they uh, they're the only ones and like the great players. Like, yeah, if there's a way to connect, like that's I think you're spot on with the isolation theme. So I'd love to help out with that as much as possible.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:37

And I appreciate that. And as soon as we I don't know that we'll ever organize into a group, but we do meet once a month and and we are uh in touch with one another offline so that we can, you know, if somebody and it doesn't even have to go through me, like so. We have these, we've had some meetings where with you know where the women get together and they'll they'll say, Man, this happened to me. And all of a sudden, you know, 10 hands go up. You know, it's like, oh yeah, but then they thought they were the only one, you know. So we can talk about that, we can figure out what works in combating that. We can find out, get some get some better skills as far as you know, social skills that help them through that, or just just knowing that some that they're not alone. There's a lot of power, and it's not just for women, it's for anybody. But if you're ever going through a problem, just knowing that you're not the only one going through it, is there's a lot of strength and power in that, and that's important to hang on to.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20

Yeah, I love it. Thank you. Well, thank you again so much, Liesel. I it's this has been just so much fun to hear your story and about your experiences and hearing just getting those little golden nuggets all throughout. And so I really appreciate you taking some time to chat. Thanks for including me. I appreciate it. Thank you. All right, have a great day.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:39

Thanks, you too. Take care.