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The Modern Trumpeter Podcast
Our goal is to pass on stories and advice from professional trumpet players to our listeners.
The Modern Trumpeter Podcast
Episode #20, Tony Kadleck
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In today's episode of the Modern Trumpet Podcast, we talk with special guest Tony Kadleck about his career.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Modern Trumpeter Podcast. I got to hear and meet today's guest at ITG 2026 in Rochester, New York, with his big band, and to hear him give a clinic and talk about working on Broadway. Today's guest is Tony Cadlick. Throughout his career, Tony Cadlick has been praised as a highly effective sideman who has lent his hand to numerous musical activities. He is currently one of the most sought-after trumpet players in the New York area. After graduating from the Manhattan School of Music in 1989, Cadlick did some touring with Frank Sinatra, Barbara Streisand, and Blood Sweat and Tears. Eventually the New York studios kept Tony too busy to leave town, and he found himself recording with a number of artists, including Luther Van Ross, Michael Jackson, Elton John, and Celine Dion. Cadillac also spends time playing at El with a wide variety of live concerts, having performed with Stevie Wonder, Ella Fitzgerald, Isaac Hayes, and most recently Steely Dan. Tony is currently a member of many organizations, including the New York Big Hops, John Pizzarelli's Swing Seven, the Maria Schneider Orchestra, John Fedchak's New York Big Band, and can currently be heard on Broadway in the band for MJ. Be sure to follow us on Instagram and YouTube at Modern Trumpeter to hear our other interviews and to get updated on our book. Sign up for our mailing list at modern trumpeter.com. Now here is my interview with Tony Cadlick. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Modern Trumpeter Podcast. Today we get to speak with Tony Cadlick. Thanks, Tony, for being with us.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I always like to ask when we start out how you first got into the trumpet and uh at what moment you decided you wanted to make it your career.
SPEAKER_02So I I started on drums because my dad had played the drums and there was a drum set upstairs, and and I played that for I guess maybe two years, and I I was kind of bored in that, like I was just playing rhythms and I wanted to play notes, and the in front of the drums were the baritone horn section. So I said, Well, I want to do that, I want to change notes and play. So I played baritone horn for a year, and then I was like, geez, I never get the melody, what a drag. So the trumpets were in front of us, so I said, I want to do that. So I didn't really play trumpet until I was about 13 or 14.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02And I got really into it really quickly, and I would say by the time I was 15, maybe 16, I I thought to myself, boy, I'd really like to do this for for a living.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_02Of course, wisely my parents tried to talk me out of it, but that didn't take.
SPEAKER_00So obviously, you know, here we are. What about the what about the trumpet wanted you to like what brought that on of just wanting to play the trumpet for a living?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, I I think uh a lot of it was I had really good schooling, uh good mo music programs within our school district, and and there were I had a lot of friends that were in music, and and I have a lot of high school friends that are still like in active in music and and big on the and jazz scene primarily. So we kind of fed off each other. But as far as the trumpet, I I don't I don't really know. I think I just I I I found it there was a trumpet teacher in in my town, his name was Bernie Schiffer, and he was really great. And he kind of instilled upon us this this work ethic, and it which it just seemed much more organized than the other instruments. And so I I I got with him pretty early. And I mean he was he was tough. He was he would, you know, if I didn't practice, he would send me home and say, You tell your mother why you're home early, and here's her check, and you don't waste my time anymore. So after a few of those, it's like, okay, I'm gonna get it together now. But the payoff was also great too. I I he just made it fun and it was really enjoyable, and so I guess in that way, uh, it was kind of him that was the catalyst for me to kind of advance on the trumpet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I think like having a private teacher is I think one of the things that can really set people apart uh early on. Like, and I've done that with kids where it's like it's like, yeah, I didn't really pick up the horns until last week. And I'm like, all right, the door's there. Yeah. And so um after that, so you were about 15, 16, where you wanted to start doing it. Then where did where did you end up going to school? Or did you go to school?
SPEAKER_02I did, I played all the way through high school, and then uh we were we were chatting about Eastman before. And as an upstate New Yorker, all I wanted in life was to get into the Eastman School of Music. And I auditioned at four schools, and I got in everywhere, and then at Eastman I got on the wait list and I was so bummed out. I was like, oh my god, life is over. And then I wound up going to New England Conservatory in Boston, which actually, in retrospect, was probably a better idea uh because Eastman would have kind of been another lateral city. I was from the town called Binghamton, New York, and uh upstate. And and I think if I had gone to New York right at 18, it would have been too much for me. So Boston was a really a nice stepping stone city. So I I went there for about two and a half years, and then I I quit because I got a chance to go on the road with Buddy Rich. And so I did that. My much of my parents' chagrin, I left school. And then I when I got off Buddy's band, they said, You're getting your degree, you started, you're gonna finish. So and I didn't want to go back to Boston, I wanted to go to New York eventually anyway. So I finished at Manhattan School of Music, so I I I just went to those two schools.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And so you just have bachelor's, no master's or doctorate.
SPEAKER_02Right. And I always tell my students, look, if you want to teach someday, even if you think you might want to teach, definitely get a degree beyond the bachelor's degree because on the bandstand, no one cares where you went to school, but when you go to teach, everybody cares.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, yeah, that's a good way to put it. I because I I've heard similar things where you know nobody's gonna ask you for your degree to for any gig you're on. It's like just play. That's all they want. But and uh in some cases it's unique, like it sounds like in your circumstance you only have a bachelor's, but because of the experience you have, um you're able to kind of bypass that and um and be teaching.
SPEAKER_02In some cases, yes, in some cases, no. I've tried for a lot of gigs that basically they they told me, you know, it's silly, we can't even look at you because you know, even though with your experience, you'd be teaching students to do what you're doing currently, but people that give money to these institutions need to know that everyone's accredited to a certain level.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I and I totally get that. But so but but I so I've been turned down for more gigs than I've been hired for in terms of the education world. But that's I I've I think I've carved a pretty nice thing, and I I I like my adjunct status at the schools I teach in.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah, yeah. Cause you're so you're adjunct uh at schools as opposed to like a tenure track.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean I've I've probably been adjunct at, I don't know, 10, 12 schools over the years, and never never uh a full-time thing where benefits and all that.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that makes sense. It seems, and maybe it'd be great to hear your thoughts on this. Do you think well you you'd said a little bit earlier about if you think you might want to even teach a little bit, like you should go beyond a bachelor's. Do you think it's worth it for young musicians today to be going for a master's degree or a doctorate degree? Maybe it depends on the situation, but we'd love to hear your thoughts in though in that regard.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I think if if you're looking at education, you I mean you almost have to, although that seems to be changing a little bit. I think some of the job openings now will indicate that you can, you know, we'd like a doctorate, we'd like a master's, but we would consider professional experience toward that. Which is great, because for years it was not the case. They wanted the doctorate, they wanted the master's, and and and it seemed like, well, okay, I I I get that, but wouldn't you like some sort of you know real world experience as well? So I I think it it is changing a little bit, but I think still it at this point it'd probably be a good idea to continue on and get a master's. I I I'm I don't know that I regret that I didn't get one, but I actually during the pandemic I was considering getting one online uh and I it just ended up not happening. And now I'm in my 60s and it doesn't, you know, at this point for me, I kind of am what I am, and it's it's I'm gonna get what I get, and that's okay. Uh I were starting out, I would definitely go towards that. For performance, I would say no, but for education, I would say yes.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I can see why that would be the case. So let's go back a little bit to Buddy Rich. Uh, how'd you get that call? What was that experience like, and how did it play into your uh personal development on the trumpet?
SPEAKER_02It was well, I mean, I I got I got the call because um I was at New England Conservatory in Boston, and right down the road is Berkeley College of Music, and and at Berkeley were great trumpet players named Eric Miyoshiro and Greg Gisbert. Yeah. And I remember we had a big party when Eric uh got the call for Buddy's band, and we were excited for him. And then subsequently, Greg got called to play the jazz chair, and then the fourth trumpet player left, and they said, Hey, are you into coming out? And I weighed it and I said, Well, yeah, yeah, I'd like to. And uh my parents tried to talk me out of it, and I said, No, I'm gonna do it, it's gonna be great. And so I just I mean, and to play with those guys, it was tremendous. And and Buddy was uh I mean, I was I was terrified. I was 21 years old, but but they were you know it was it was a learning experience, and I learned a lot about how to act and how to stay out of the line of fire and just be quiet and do the gig. Don't you know, don't do anything to upset the the situation. And yeah, it was great. I wasn't on for a very long time because after a while I was playing fourth trumpet and I was really starting to spread out my chops, and but I I would not have wanted to play lead or or the jazz chair in that at that point in my life, and Eric was tearing it up and Greg was tearing it up. So I I stayed for a short uh amount of time. And and I wanted to kind of start my life in New York, and that was prior to that.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, sure, sure. Well, that's it sounds like it was yeah, like a kind of a a wake-up call, something you can't get in the classroom, right? Do you know, and you know, this is uh a question for you know for young players. It doesn't seem like there's a lot of those type of opportunities nowadays. There's not a lot of touring big bands, and do do you know if that's the case? I just I haven't know if I've heard anything in recent years where you can get that type of experience anymore.
SPEAKER_02I think you're right. I think it's uh it's you know, I mean there are big bands around and they're great big bands, but the days of being out, you know, ten months a year are are behind us, and it's just not cost effective, I think. And uh I I think some big bands do pretty well. I know that you know, Gordon's band did a lot and continues even after his passing to do some some some work and Maria Schneider's very busy, but a lot of her gigs are in Europe and she'll be called to come and conduct, guest conduct bands, so it that doesn't involve the rest of us, unfortunately. But but there are there are things out there, but it's not it's definitely not what it was. So I I tell students to take every opportunity you can to play in large ensembles just to learn to blend, to play in tune, to play in time. Things that we took for granted because we were just doing it all the time. But now, you know, uh if I sit with three other trumpet players, it's now it's a big deal. I'm excited, but it used to be the norm. It's just you know, there's still opportunities, but maybe not for that kind of point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure. What are those other opportunities that you commonly see and that you get to refer your students to do?
SPEAKER_02Well, most often now uh it it well, it was cruise ships for a minute, uh, and now it's it might be touring shows, or it may still be cruise ships. I'm not I've I've never done that gone that route. And I've never done a touring show either, but I know that they they exist and and I've had a lot of friends that that go out and there are positions for Paul. We talked about Paul Barron earlier. He's been doing it on and off for a long time, and and he he's an Iron Man. He just you know he keeps plugging away and it's amazing. And there's a lot of really good players out there on the road, and and so I think there are opportunities in that venue as well.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah. I've uh started recommending to kids that I've mentored who are now in college, like, hey, why don't you consider going out on a cruise ship during the summer between semesters or go play at a theme park on the east coast? Like, go get some real world experience. Like, don't work at McDonald's for the summer. Like, what are you doing? Like, go get that experience.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. In 1985, uh actually the summer before I was on Buddy's band, I went to Disneyland and did a similar thing like that. Played in the all-American college band or whatever. We marched with work and we made, you know, a couple hundred bucks a week or whatever it was, but it was fun. And we were, you know, we were out there and you really learn a lot. It's it's great. So I completely agree with you. I mean, if you know, I mean, it's even better if you can get like I mean medical benefits and stuff like that. But that's that's maybe a little down the down the line.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, sure. Yeah, do you know? I mean, I've heard Eric talk about the McDonald's All-American band and then Disney hat, but then it don't do that anymore. Then Disney and the All-American College Band, they shut that down. It's like Yeah. No, so like it's it's a bummer to see some of these programs go away where even for high school kids, where it's like would be so helpful. I know that there's like Jazz Band of America and uh um what's the one that Sean Jones does, NYO. Do you know of any others, other programs that do similar things for either high school or college musicians?
SPEAKER_02Maybe not on that level, although I I you know the the Jazz and Lincoln Center might have something in that vein. And I know that the essentially Ellington thing is blown up, but uh as far as touring, I'm not exactly sure about that. But the McDonald's band was amazing. I I think Eric did it maybe the year before I did it, and then Greg Gisbert did it the year after I did it, and I just idolized, I listened to the recordings of of those those guys playing. I was like, wow, I mean it's just I can't believe these are high school kids. So it was it was really like a big time eye opener for me and to oh yeah. So yeah, and it was great.
SPEAKER_00It's incredible, man. So yeah, because like you know, when you get that bug in high school, it's like what can you do? It's like I want to as many resources as I can find to help kids know like where you can go and and uh gain more experience, the better. So and so after Buddy came back and decided to go to New York, and uh obviously you're from New York, so was there ever your ever a thought for you of going to LA or going to another big place besides New York? And ultimately, why did you decide to stay in New York?
SPEAKER_02I think I mean I I had spent the summer in LA and when I did the Disneyland band, and I great. We got we met great clinicians, I took lessons, Bobby Shu. It was it was such a cool time for me. But I was from upstate New York, which is about three hours away from New York City, so I didn't really know New York all that well, the the city itself. So but I it was kind of close to my family, and I said, well, you know, let me let me try this. It it just seemed like a more logical choice than LA. But you're right, and New York and LA were the choices back then. It seems like now there's great musicians everywhere. I mean, there probably always were, but I think there are opportunities every place, it's not just New York or LA. Nashville's huge, Chicago, yeah, so many great places to play music. But for me, New York made sense. And I actually this year I celebrate 40 years being here, which seems to just feel like the new guy in town still. But clearly not the case with the white hair. But but I I you know I I I will say with it has ups and downs, but it's it's it was a really, really good uh environment for me to be in. And and uh the trumpet community was very uh helpful and giving and working to get other folks on gigs, and everyone got their foot in the door because the people in front of them helped them out, and it was it was very interesting vibe. So I I was very lucky here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well wanna dig into that too. Maybe coming up coming up soon. There's all of that talking about other cities, you know. I think a lot of young players, the impression I get is like, hey, we wanna I want to do music, I want to move to LA or New York, and I don't want to go anywhere else because it's those two are bust. Like you'd mentioned uh before, like there's great players everywhere, there's opportunity everywhere. Um, what would you say to those young players who might kind of have tunnel vision on one of those two cities?
SPEAKER_02I don't see that as much now as I did maybe a couple decades ago. Uh I think people realize that I mean you're gonna get probably I don't want to speak for everyone, but you're probably gonna get a better quality of life in Tacoma, Washington than you are in New York City. Things aren't gonna be as expensive, it's not gonna be as crowded, it's not gonna be as uh these big cities are not for everybody. Play is more spread out, you can kind of and you're in your car all the time. It's it's hard to have a car here. Everyone just takes the subway, so you're inundated with people constantly. But I I think the internet has also changed a lot of it too.
SPEAKER_00For sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Used to be you have to, you know, you gotta be in the big city to get noticed. Now you can like you know play a double C and pop it up on uh Instagram and all of a sudden you got you know seven million followers, and and it's just not it's it it's it's changed the game so much that you don't really need to be in these places to get some notoriety.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Do you think that's I mean, you it I mean you I don't know if there's a correct answer for this, but do you think that's a good thing and a bad thing or down the middle?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I my my friends my own age, we we talk about that a lot. It's you know, it uh in some ways it can come out it come off as like boasting, but in other ways it's it's it's advertising. And we used to pay people thousands of dollars to promote our projects, and and now it's like, well, I mean you still have to do it to some degree, but but you can you can get a lot of juice just by you know throwing your stuff up there and and showing the world what you have. And I know contractors in town that even book people for gigs based on what they've seen on Instagram, which seems a little suspect, but but I I mean it in in many ways it works out. So it's not for you you have to be you know, you have to be comfortable with your own situation, and I don't begrudge anyone for throwing their stuff up there. I I th for me, I I I I don't want to saturate the market, like I'm not gonna I'm not gonna put videos up every day because after a while then it's like oh okay, oh it's another video for the double C. You know, yeah. So I I think you gotta know your audience and then maybe just tread a little lightly, but I no, I think it's a super useful tool.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's it's like I wish they had like a social media marketing course baked into like your degree, you know. It's like it's great you can play Mahler 5 really well. What what's next? What what else can you do? How does that help you?
SPEAKER_02I take that class. I take it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, me too. And that's kind like again, yeah, what the purpose of the book is is to you know take it. What's the next step of yeah, yeah, you have to be able to play. Um, and that's something I've you know, I've talked with all these people. It's like they're all great players, and like you're not gonna get called if you can't play, but you're also not gonna get called if nobody knows who you are or anything like that. When you first so you moved to New York, spent a couple of years in the Manhattan School of Music there, graduated, and what happened for you next?
SPEAKER_02I met a guy who uh we played Nebraska Sextet together, really great trumpet player from Paris named Dominic Duras, who lived here for many years, and and we were playing and and he he had this Broadway show and he said, Hey, do you want to come and sub on the show? I'm like, Okay, yeah. I didn't certainly go to New York to play shows. I went to New York to be a recording thing, you know, player and and uh and and and freelancer. You know, I wasn't opposed to shows, but I certainly didn't go for that. But then again, there was a lot more recording back then. But so I went in and watched the book. He you know, he said, Yeah, you're just gonna watch me play it, and uh someday I'm gonna call you and you're gonna go in. I said, Okay, cool. And uh, like maybe a week later he said, Hey, you want to go in tonight? Like, tonight? Like, yeah. He said, Yeah. I said, Well, I I guess. I mean, wow, I okay. And so I went in and you either sink or swim, and and then you hopefully get invited back. That was in a different that was a different time. That was the mid-80s. Now it's a little more everyone has like copy of the book. They have a video of the conductor, there's a drop box, there's this, there's that. I mean, there's you know, they kind of put it on a platter for you. But it was a little different scene. So but that that's kind of how I got into that. But I also did Latin gigs, I did, you know, salsa gigs and kumia gigs and merengue gigs and and whatever came around. I just then I, you know, would play in bars with bands and then do weddings and you know, all that stuff, like like everyone does. You just kind of my my teacher John McNeil at New England said when you get to New York, you go out and do everything. If if they call you for a supermarket opening at nine in the morning, you know, you show up and you play your trump, you know, you just get out there and you meet people, and that was pretty good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's that's one thing that ever like it seems like so many opportunities and so many gigs, if not all of them, really come from who you know and the relationships you build. So could you talk a little bit about that? If like how relationships have helped you in your career with obviously starting with this Broadway show and then other other experiences, other opportunities you've been able to have?
SPEAKER_02Sure. I I think you know, if I talk about the gig I'm going to tonight, and I really thought about it for about 20 minutes, I could trace that gig back to probably 20 different people. Well, I got that because, well, I knew this person. Oh, but I met that person from on a recommendation from this person. And you could just you could just, you know, like a family tree, you could just trace them way back to the people that gave you your start. And it's it's pretty, pretty cool to see the progression. And uh but uh but I've you know what what McNeil was saying was just go out and meet people. That that was incredibly great advice. Just because you know, you sit in a big band, you go to a free rehearsal at the union hall or whatever, and you're gonna be playing with three other trumpet players. Well, that's three other chances to get noticed. Maybe network with those folks and so even the the free gigs or the you know I some of the greatest players in the world I've met on some of the just dumbest gigs ever like and I'm looking there and I'm thinking I can't believe I'm sitting next to this person and they're playing this ridiculous gig and because they're like one of my idols, but then you know, but then you develop relationships, so it I think it's just good to get out there. No one calls you and asks you for a gig if you're sitting at home watching the price is right, you know. Yeah, or you know, meeting people and and and it just you know it's expensive, but you go to clubs where there are trumpet players and or just musicians in general and and and just meet folks because then they say, Oh yeah, I remember yeah, we met at Birdland years ago. It just it just snowballs and you have to kind of make yourself self-accessible to everyone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so like you mentioned going to clubs, going to like union rehearsals and whatnot. Um, are there any other places where young musicians could go to be meeting people? Like are do you are in New York are jam sessions common or there are other things like that where you could go meet people?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there are I mean there are definitely jam sessions. I'm I don't I don't really uh partake in those anymore, but I sure did when I was coming up. Uh but there are jam sessions. There are well, there are certain restaurants and bars where a bunch of musicians will hang out between shows on a Wednesday or a Saturday. And you can just kind of show up there and oh yeah, look, you know, there's you know, you could go to the bar and see like 10 musicians or eating and having a drink or whatever. Yeah, just there anything like that. You just get out there and and and be around the the scene is is helpful. And I always say to students, just find seek out the people that are doing the kind of work you want to be doing, and just say, you know, to them, hey, I I know you're busy. Can I take you out for coffee or or whatever? And just sit down and talk to them for a while and just say, Look, I you know, how did you break in? What what would be a good way for me to break in? And and people are generally pretty generous with their time and are are happy to see other folks get into the scene and be successful.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that's great. And you've mentioned some of that before of you know everybody's opening, keep getting your foot in the door, and there's the next guy there who's been helping, and so on and so forth. Is that culture still prevalent today? Do you think?
SPEAKER_02I think it is. I think, yeah, I do. I and I think there are younger folks that definitely uh respect that and adhere to that. And there's always gonna be someone who thinks that they should have all the gigs without paying any of the dues, and but but by and it's pretty minimal. Most people realize that I mean I sure did when I came up. I mean, there's a there's a pecking order. I'm not gonna take, you know, I'm not gonna come to town and take all John Fattis's work. I can tell you that. It's just not gonna not only can I not do it, but I it's just not who I am, I wouldn't do it. But you know, you just have to you just have to wait your turn because it's a very slow thing. And it's hard. It's it's easy to be impatient, it's very expensive here. And uh the the clock is ticking, you feel oh boy, the mortgage is or the the the rent is due. Here I am, and I you know I've done two gigs this entire month, but it happens, it just it just kind of takes time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. For those situations and for like those students who are like, Yeah, I've only had a couple gigs this month and have you know so busy. Do you see those musicians like taking other jobs or kind of getting something steady in the meantime while while work picks up?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I know people friends that have done data entry or even even during the pandemic, like top top players would would. I mean, we had no money for except for unemployment for a year and a half. So people were people they were taking jobs, like real jobs and and whatever they could get. And um and and it's it's it's just part of the the culture. And we don't we have our job security, unless you're in the Philharmonic or the Met or whatever, our job security is nil. I mean, you really have to just every day you're kind of crossing your fingers that tomorrow will come and you'll have a place to go play and work. It's tough. But but yeah, people definitely pad their music income with their you know daytime income if they need to. Sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and can you I think that's kind of at least well and I'm speaking so much on like personal experience and kind of what I've seen from musicians out here in Utah, but like I think sometimes we get an idea of like I'm gonna go gradu to music school, graduate, and I'm gonna start gigging and that's it. And I'm I've made it. And we're just like, no, there's a pecking order, you have to wait your turn. Uh, there's even there's some kids in high school that I know who are like, how do I get gigs? Can you refer me for some gigs? And I'm like, Well, you're still like 15, you're still 16. Like, like, I know 20 tax players here in town that if I need a tax player, I'm probably going to go to them first before you. Not that I don't want to hire you, but I just have been working with these people longer. And they're like, Well, like, I can do it. I'm like, I know, I know you can do it, but like there's that, there's some patience that needs to be involved.
SPEAKER_02I agree. It I mean, it and it's it's it's innocent. It's of course everyone deserves a shot, but it just takes sometimes it just takes a minute, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's something that's just yeah, that's what I'm trying to help with these young players is like, yeah, here's everything you need to do, and we're gonna set you up for the most success possible. And sometimes it just comes down to chance and waiting, and you'll get there. Um I had another question. Let's see. And okay, so did you ever have to go through a phase like that after graduating where you had to get something more steady on the side that wasn't necessarily music related or maybe working at a music store or anything kind of along those lines?
SPEAKER_02I was very lucky. I I did not have to do that, but but what I did do was I learned to do a lot of other things within music. Uh and I tell students this too. Like for for a while I I was part of this wedding band and uh they found out that I could arrange horn charts, so I did I did a lot of that. Uh this was before computers, but and computers got involved, like I made sure that I had my Sibelius chops together and I tell students, you know, the more things you can do, the better off you're gonna be. If you can you don't have to be Wayne Bergeron, but if you can play some lead, great. You don't have to be Freddie Hubbard, but if you can play some jazz, great. You don't have to be uh Allison Balsam, but if you can play some classical, great. You can do a church gig, whatever. Yeah. You know, it it your higher ability, if that's a word, just expands. Be able to write, be able to arrange a brass quintet or something. Have your Pro Tools or or Logic Chops together or Ableton, whatever. Just the more things you can do, the better off you're gonna be. I I know a lot of jazz players that when it's slow, they do a lot of copy work, and that's always someone looking to do that, to have them, you know, have stuff copied, people that just don't have time or whatever, and and and that's there are things you can do within music, but you know, even if those have dried up, I would I would absolutely take a day gig. You know, I would if I needed to, I would absolutely I was lucky enough at that time, it was pretty busy in the 80s where that wasn't something I didn't have to do, but I sure would have if I needed to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that's I think that's important for young players to hear well, like you know, when you're getting going, like it's okay to have to do this job. I think I was who was I talking to? Of it was it might have been Al Ali Albrecht, she plays in the Navy Commodores, like she was an RA or something at whichever school she was studying at.
SPEAKER_02I can't remember in that yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so, like, and that helped pay for her housing and stuff, and that great, like that works out perfectly. Or um, I know another player I'm sure you're familiar with, Kellen Hannes, where on the side she's doing like social media management or something like that for a bunch of bunch of players. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something along those lines. It's like that's great too. Like, there's so many things outside of just playing the trumpet where if you can add that to your skill set, you're so much better off. And I think uh at least for me being young, I would have never thought that somebody like yourself would know what logic or Ableton or was would like do you know, it's like, oh, they play trumpet and that's the thing that they do. And then in all these interviews uh and whatnot, like speaking with Wayne, he's like, Yeah, I'm a producer. You can have a whole setup and brand new, and and like he does like all that stuff. I'm like, he's probably one of the greatest lead trumpet players of all time, and he's in the studios all the time, but he still does that. It's like wow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so so for you, what are some of those other skills that you develop? We talked about arranging. You didn't do any composition or copy work or any of that stuff as well?
SPEAKER_02All of the above, yeah. I'm I I was a little late to the game in terms of the uh the uh like the I owned Pro Tools for many years before I was was able to open it up and figure it out. And I and I still I I decided to go with logic, so I but I but I record from home. I bought a nice mic and preamp and I I I talked to Wayne about it, and he said, Oh, you gotta get this. And I mean, just talk to people who are you know in a similar area, and and oh, this sounds great on flu, this sounds great on trumpet, and if you if you stay like six inches away from this, but this at an angle, whatever. There's all these little tricks. I go into the studio and like the they set up my mic, and I just kind of sit up, I just play, I don't know what to say, but now I'm like thinking, oh boy, it's off you know, off axis, and I didn't really know that I I found myself having an unknown, uh especially during the pandemic, we there was tons of home recording going on. Yeah, yeah. So it was helpful. And and going back to your your previous thing, just talking about doing other other things. There I I I went to college with this Tramone player, and and it wasn't even just that he wasn't working. He this guy, he he felt like he just wanted to play jazz. He did not want to play like a wedding band. In fact, he told me at one point, he said, I would rather work at Burger King than than play in a wedding band. And it's like, okay, cool, you know. But and he and he would have a day job, but that was his choice. And it was like, good, good for you. I was just like, Man, if I'm playing my horn, I mean I I think that's better, but whatever, you know, everyone's got a different Yeah, to each their own, I guess.
SPEAKER_00But I think that's kind of like when those that's what I'm trying to like. There's any young musicians who have the kind of that mentality, like I'd rather do a day job than this. It's like, okay, well, that's probably what you're gonna have to do. And if if you're okay with that, great. But if but if if you're wanted to just play jazz and that's it, like I've I was talking with Pat Harberson a little bit about that, and he was like, Yep, you he tells his students where he's like you either well, you either commit to poverty, you marry somebody rich, or like you do other music, or those are pretty much your options if that's what you want to do. I was like, Yeah, that sounds about right. Um okay, so moving on to uh you've been doing all these things. Uh you can record a home, you copy, you arrange, all all that stuff. But I think what what would you say you're most uh known for as far as trumpet and trend trumpet playing and uh and Tony Cav, like he's the greatest or such and such?
SPEAKER_02I don't think I'm the greatest in anything, but I but I I I I I appreciate your question. I understand what you you're I don't know. I I mean I I guess because my bread and butter seems to be shows, but it it wasn't always. But people kind of think of you as that when in reality I take off my show all the time to do gigs that pay a tenth what the show pays, just because I want to do I want to play music. I I like to play the com music of new composers. But as far as what are you known for, I I mean I I guess I'll give the standard freelance answer, the you know, jack of all trades, master of none. I think in some ways I people call me because they think, well, he's not the greatest lead player in the world, but he can play lead. He's not the greatest jazz player in the world, but he can play some jazz, he can he can sit in an orchestra and not completely embarrass himself. And that's kind of what I you know, I I was never one to put all the eggs in one basket, just because A, I liked a lot of different kinds of music, and and and I always wanted to keep those parts of my playing together. So I I I would I don't know, in a in a perfect world, I would like to say versatility, though I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I I I understand the uh what you're saying and whatnot. So when it comes to shows, uh obviously you've been doing a lot of shows for a long time. What would be some of your advice of you know, there's a player who wants to start getting experience doing shows, not necessarily in New York, not maybe necessarily even in a professional space from where they're at, but where could somebody start getting some experience on a any type of show?
SPEAKER_02I I think nowadays it's very different. When I was in high school, we we would do a musical and people they'd be begging people to can you play in the pit? Oh please oh please play. We couldn't get musicians to to play. And now it seems like every Broadway is really the popularity is blown up. And so I I I know tons of really good players that'll do high school productions of shows just because and and and and in reasonably affluent areas, they'll high schools will will pay to have a a professional pit come in, and you know, they'll have some students as well, but they'll also have some pros come in and and play. So there's that the I think in especially when you're out of the bigger cities, I think that's a that's kind of a a big deal, it seems to be anyway, across the country. As far as like towns where there is Broadway or show or there is a theater where they house touring shows, I think there's usually you know a few people that kind of control it all, and and there's not that much work. Here there's like a million different shows, so there might be 35 trumpet players holding down chairs, and each of those people probably has 10 people they can call the sub, so the pool's pretty wide. But in smaller towns, I I think you just find the person that kind of does the work that you'd like to do, and whether it's the contractor or the trumpet player themselves, just say, Look, I would love to get involved in this if you ever need someone if you hung up or whatever, and and just be you know nice and and self-effacing and not like I'm gonna take over the town, but like man, if you ever need someone to to come in and and uh and try to you know knock it out of the park, I would be happy to to shed really hard and and try to play as as close to how you play as as and as possible. Because that ultimately Broadway likes predictability, they don't really like unpredictability, they don't want someone who's gonna come in and like it whatever the regular person does, for better or worse, is what they're used to, and they like what they're used to. So if there's a player that you know you're subbing for that plays really strong, then you gotta hit it pretty hard. If there's a player player that plays pretty tame and and you think it should be louder, they don't want it louder, they want it like they're used to hearing it every other night.
SPEAKER_00That's good. Yeah, and I hadn't thought about that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02The doctor wants that, the stage wants that, the sound design people want that. It's just easier for them to not have to, you know, jump through hoops to like remix like somebody who's trying to put their own stamp on it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I hadn't thought about that. I'm gonna have to add that into my chapter. It was it was Dan. Now I gotta add to it. No, this is that's great. That's I had thought about that and considered that. How would you how how do you know what's the person you're subbing for, how they approach the show? You'd mentioned they, you know, you can come sit and observe the show and watch the book and whatnot. Besides that, is there any other suggestions you would have to approaching that situation?
SPEAKER_02Well, you'll you will get like an audio tape, but uh, I mean, that'll tell you like phrasing things and and articulation things and whatnot. But what it won't show you is like the volume that's actually going down during the gig. So that when you go to watch the book, or I guess they call it auditing it, or in in London they call it depping. And and you can kind of get some some line on like how loud people are playing. Like, oh wow, that's you know, that's softer than I wouldn't have thought, or wow, that's louder than I would have thought. Uh occasionally, uh if like the bands on stage, obviously you can't be sitting there on stage watching street clothes, but so you you kind of have to approximate. And and I I always find the best thing to do is to just check in with your peers when you're playing. Like, hey, am I you know, can I can I come up a bit? Should I come down a bit? What do you need from me? Um am I playing the right volume? And you know, people say, You can play a little stronger, it'd be cool, or or or uh no, you're perfect, leave it as is. Or so I I I think it's it's kind of trial or error, and because when you sub, there's no rehearsal. Yeah. Folks that have been listening to this for you know six months or twenty years or whatever it is. Yeah, and it's you're like your first time. It's you know, but we all had a first time, so you try to you know cut people some slack.
SPEAKER_00Sure, yeah. But obviously, there's ways to prepare, like you get the copy of the book, you have the conductor recording, you have probably whatever streaming, whatever, like you know, on Spotify or Apple Music, the show's also probably there, you know, so there's really not an excuse to to be missing stuff, quote unquote. And I've also heard that it's you know, you get one shot sink or swim, and if you sink, it's it's tough to get back into that. Yeah, stick to that a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think they do expect like near they expect pretty high quality right out of the gate. But I mean it used to be conductors were were actual conductors. Now it seems like 99 times out of a hundred uh the conductors are are keyboard players who learn to conduct for the sole purpose of that show or whatever. And and some are very understanding and some know music and they know other instruments, and some are just keyboard folks that don't really know. They don't understand when you miss a note, like well, you know, because on the keyboard, you know, it's not that hard, you know. But it's pretty hard. So so you know, some people are more tolerant than others, so you kind of have to to weigh that. Uh but uh as far as uh the other thing, I mean, sorry, I I drew a little bit of a blank on the your question.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like uh just of you know when you're preparing for for Broadway gig, and what do you need to what do you need to do to make sure you're coming in and and it's like oh there's somebody who's not so-and-so here.
SPEAKER_02Right, gotcha. When uh when I looked at the book at Wicked, I was thinking, man, there's a lot of mixed meter, and the conduct, like there's a lot of push and pull. There's nothing that's just in time. And and I they had given me dates already to play, and I said, I don't think I have I I don't think I can do this. I just don't have the time to put in to do the job I want to do. So I I said, Thanks for having me. I you guys sound great. I don't think I can do this. And then so I went off and you know, I I I I did another show, and then when that show closed, they called again, they said, Hey, do you want to sub? And I said, You know what, this time I actually have time to put in. So I just sat and watched the conductor video, and I must have played that thing like 35 times at home, just you know, just before I could even walk in and and do it. And then felt and even then it was tense, you know. The first 20 times I was panicking, but but it's it's what it is, and and you know, but the the people that put the time in, you know, they'll they'll you know hopefully rise to the top and and do a good job, and it'll get noticed that they're trying really hard. And and uh but but it's yeah, yeah, it's it's one of those things where you really have to do you really do have to stay on it and and put the time in. And it's hard because then when you'll you'll be subbing, and if you're subbing for someone who doesn't take off very much, like you might go four months without being back at Wicked or wherever, and I review it, it's like, oh man, I god, I can't even remember this. It was so long ago, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that that would be really tough. How how do you and how do others like uh over there in New York and on Broadway kind of approach those situations where you might be on I because you can sub for multiple shows, right? So like if you're you know four shows or for example, and you're playing these two a lot, and this one the third one occasionally now, fourth one, like all of a sudden you have a free night, and it's like, yeah, it's been four months. How do you how do you approach that and get ready for the gig that day? Because I'm sure a lot of the calls calls either come day of or right before or whatever.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I think you just do what you did. You do a crash course of what you did when you perform you prepared for the show initially, which is just you know, re-familiarize yourself with the conductor video, or just sometimes I'll just be on the train going out and I'll just be listening to it. Oh yeah, I remember that. Oh, this one, yeah. This one goes from four to two, yeah. Oh, yeah, I remember. You know, and you just kind of it'll come back, but you can't go in like you know, come oh, this is gonna be fine. I did this five months ago. It's like, oh man. I mean, you're my you you played a lot of notes in the last five months that weren't this, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that sounds a little that sounds a little scary to just I think I'll I'll be fine. You hope you do, yeah. Man, so what are some of the I'm sure you've done so many shows, but what are some of the shows that you've um done or some of your favorites that you've been able to play and and uh I don't know what you would call it, maybe the the first trumpet player for any specific shows, like the very first time this show happened that you were the first trumpet player to play it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean uh lots of them probably over the years, but I don't know. I mean Frozen or Beauty and the Beast or Oh boy, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I'm I'm trying to think or that's a big question, I guess.
SPEAKER_02I'm trying to remember which ones hadn't been done before. Like I did Gypsy, but Gypsy it seems to come back every five years, you know. But uh yeah, a lot of lot of a lot of ones that were flops that you would never have heard of. For all the hits you do, there's there's a lot of flops. Like I did ten years of Beauty and the Beast, so that was that was that was kind of enough.
SPEAKER_00And uh That's a long time.
SPEAKER_02Humans they're not made to hear the same music every night, you know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But but yeah, I mean there's a lot of flops and and and stuff like that. But you you do the best you can and you know, there's n you find there's no right way to do it. You you I mean you you you try to do it as you read it and and use your best judgment, but then they'd go on the road and they Oh, they yeah, they change that. Oh, it's different. Oh yeah, they didn't like that. They so you know, sometimes they love what you do and sometimes they're like, ah, you know, let's change it, whatever.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02You know, there's just you know, I don't have a dog in the race, it's not my music. I'm just doing I'm here to do what they tell me to do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I got to play at a theater, local local theater here. Uh we played Jersey Boys and uh got to play that and that was fun. And then later on they didn't hire a pit, but they had like um a play that needed the sc like the parts recorded, and they sent me the like you can do it from home or come here, and I was like, I'll I'll do it at home. That'll be much easier. And they sent it to me with like the guy track, and the measures were off, and there's like weird markings that weren't music markings all over the place, like something got lost in translation. I spent like six hours getting the first four tracks done, and there was like 32 scenes, and I'm like and it didn't pay you know that much. I thought I'd be able to knock it out in an hour or two, and I was like, oh my gosh. So I was like, Hey, I'm gonna come in and get you gotta help me out here. And then we knocked it out, but I was like, Oh my. Yeah, that would that'd be a nightmare to come in and try and read. I'm sure that all the uh music that you end up reading is pretty spot on and clear and easy to read.
SPEAKER_02Really? I mean, some of that it could could be the fault of the player. You know, some people like I mark my book pretty meticulously. I'm I'm kind of like that, but but I I find that if you don't mark it like at the first rehearsal, it's gonna go you you're gonna forget it. Every time you see it, it's like, oh yeah, it's just this, you know, but like the sub doesn't know that. So if you don't mark it like immediately, you're it's probably not gonna get marked. So pretty uh uptight about that. But sometimes even the copyists will just they'll write plain quarter notes with no accents or anything on them, and it's like that could be played four different ways. I mean, you throw me a bone, you know, help me out here. And and and the the sideways accent, you know, that doesn't really mean anything. I mean, if you're playing, you know, Mahler, it means something, but but to me, like I I need a line or a dot, like I or a cap. I don't need like, you know, it just makes it it makes it hard. Like I did a movie yesterday, and like they didn't do you know, there were just plain quarter notes there, and it's like now you gotta have the discussion. Well, that one should be short, but this one should be long, and then it's like just put it on the page for us, and then we'll we'll make it right, you know. You know, it's honest, they don't really know what they want, so they want to audition different things, and that's cool too. But but I like to have it set up ahead of time, so usually it's cool, but not always.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah, because especially uh yeah, if you subs coming in and they don't know that you're supposed to if there's a written Cesura that you that was put in later, like that's uh you're gonna have a problem.
SPEAKER_02I've been doing the same show for four and a half years now, and I can tell you every part that's not marked in someone else's book because subs will come in and inevitably they'll they'll hold over to one even though we've been cutting off on four for years, just because it it's not written in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, and there's a new sub, and I'm like, here we go, you know. And it's you know it's not their fault, they're they're reading what's on the page. But so you gotta be pretty meticulous with yeah.
SPEAKER_00Do you ever get to keep the music after a show or do you return it to the whoever or the production or whatever it is?
SPEAKER_02Well you return it, uh, but I mean at that point you've you know you have a digital copy of it anyway. But yeah, there are there are people that read you know the written music too, and so you have to make sure that that's updated if there's a change. You can't just change it in your iPad because some you know you have to change it in in the book as well. That's tricky before iPads, we would have to go out, we would take the book out, and you know, we'd go to Kinkos and we'd copy 300 pages of music and different copies of it for all the subs, so everyone could have their book.
SPEAKER_00Well that sounds like a nightmare. That's a lot of work. Geez, yeah, I'm a fan of iPads, much easier. Do you know? So obviously, Paul has his books where there's excerpts and different things. Uh, do you know of any resources where a player could find that digital copy of whatever show and stir they might not necessarily be playing it, but it's like, hey, I want to learn how to play Wicked. And here's music. Do you know of any places or resources like that where you can just learn a show and have start putting those shows kind of in your back pocket?
SPEAKER_02I, you know, usually people will just text other people who have done the show and say, I don't know how that works in terms of copyright or any of that, but like I have a pretty vast collection of stuff I've done over the years. And if a student wants to, you know, play the third trumpet part to gypsy, I'll, you know, I'll be able to produce that. But but yeah, you know, I uh I get calls all the time, hey, I'm doing uh you know, doing curtains on the road. Do you have the first trumpet part? And oh yeah, sure, awesome, you know, and or I'm doing whatever, and and they'll they'll find out who did it on Broadway and they'll try to reach out and see if they can nail down that book. Yeah, but it's yeah, it's right-wise. I'm not sure how how groovy that is, but right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm sure. And that's like I know that's the hard thing, is like, yeah, you want to have music. So in my mind, it's like, hey, I want to prepare for these gigs. Like, I wanna whatever, like what books can I get that have the music that I can practice so that when it comes, it's not on the fly learning or figuring things out, you know. So I'm like, I know there's a couple books out there with church, church musician kind of stuff, like or wedding ceremonies, and you can at least get an idea of you know what that's gonna sound like, and there's uh things like that. But it's like, man, if there was just if you could just have music for all these things that you could purchase and and like start working on, it'd be so nice. But that's like a big copyright thing, I guess.
SPEAKER_02I guess I don't I'm not even sure how that works, but I know that it's it's pretty easy to get a hold of that stuff if you if you just know the right people. Or or sometimes I'll get calls uh, hey, do you have the third trumpet part for a west side story? And I was like, Well, I don't, but I know where you can get it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, that's great. Let's see. What are some other things that young musicians should know going into Broadway? You know, I've seen any recently I did a thing where it said like all it said was Gazo, exclamation point. And I've been talking with Josh Kaufman, and then he's like, Yeah, Conrad Gazo. Lead player's like, um, okay. And so, but you wouldn't know that unless you knew who Conrad Gazo was. Or I saw one where it was a la, I think it was in high school, it was White Christmas. There's like a moment where it said a la Harry James, and I'm like, Who's that? Like, I don't know who that is. Now I now I know who Harry James is and what that means, but back then I'm like, I'm just gonna play it. And nobody, you know, it was high school, so nobody really cared. But you know, there's all those like small things in the music or mutes and set up the mics and everything. What would be your advice to a young player on learning what all of those things mean so that they understand it when they see it? Right.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, I mean, I would just say, you know, uh Harry James. You Google Harry James and you're gonna get a lesson right there, and and then you know, at least you'll be able to approximate it or whatever. Now, I mean, there's with you know, with with the internet in your hand, basically there's no excuse for not like doing homework and researching it. We'd see like uh there was like a mute on someone would write a I can't even remember what it was, but there it was a term for mute. Uh it was a specific time type of mute, and we didn't know what the heck it was. So and then I learned later it was cup mute or whatever. But you know, but now I mean it's all it's all there for you. You just gotta you just gotta do the research and and find out what it is. Listen to the cast recording. If I have to play this thing coming up, and it's like a bunch of mixed meter, and it's kind of hard. And I'm like, I must have listened to that thing like 30 times. And it wasn't even this particular arrangement that I have to play Monday, but it was it was like a piano vocal, and I was just like three-eighths, you know, okay, you know. I I use you you just gotta do your homework on your own so that when you get to the gig, you're not you're not there's no surprises. I think preparation is is gonna help you. You know, you get you just gotta be prepared. And then the basic things that, or at least they should be basic. You show up on time, you show up ready to go, yeah, you you show up with all the right stuff that you're gonna need, and and you're you know, you're nice and you're pleasant, you say hi to people, you say goodbye to people. Just just common courtesy things. There are a lot of great players that don't really get the time of day because they're just not fun to be around. And and we talked about that a little bit earlier. Our business is so cutthroat, there's no room for someone who's not gonna be cool. You gotta be cool because otherwise they could get 35 other people like like that to do what what I'm doing, you know. They just gotta so yeah, I just humble pie and leave the ego at the door. Have the ego in your head for when you play, but don't have don't, you know, you don't have to show the world that you have it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I like that. Keep the ego in your head to get get the job done, but don't show everybody. Oh, that's great. I love that. We're gonna have to quote that in the book somewhere. That's great. When it comes to uh mutes and and um instruments, mouthpieces. Um do you find that you have to, depending on maybe the scene or depending on the show, you're changing what you're using as far as equipment with mouthpieces, mutes, all that stuff.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Like I I did a I did one show, it was a real super legit show. It didn't even go above like a high CR. So I just played the whole thing on a like a 3B, I think I was playing at the time. But but yeah, a lot of times I'll be in a rehearsal space and the acoustics will be nice, I'll be able to hear myself, and and I'll say to myself, I could I could probably play this show on my big bigger mouthpiece. I don't even need to play my lead mouthpiece. And then you get in the pit and then they throw a bunch of baffles around you, and then they you know, and then next thing it's like it's like playing into a pillow, and you're like, Well, I don't know I I there goes that. I guess I'll get my smaller mouthpiece out just to save my face a little bit. Um so much of it has to do with with the environment that you're you're playing in. But for me, I uh equipment wise, I you know, I I joke with I joked with Wayne because like they go to a film date and they they can throw like seven horns in their trunk, you know. Oh, I need a I need a D-trumpet today, I need a flu, you know, it's like that's great if you had a car, but if you're like in New York, we're on the subway, we're not gonna carry seven horns in case we might need a D-trumpet or something. It's just a different world, but I try to carry as much stuff as possible. Lately, uh like in in in past days, I would just like if it said, you know, if it didn't say anything, I would bring every mute I own, just in case. But now they'll send you a PDF of the part beforehand, and so you check it out. It's like I only need straight mute. So you show up with just straight mute and they say, Hey, you know what, let's do that on cup mute. It's like, oh man, I you know what, if you didn't say anything, I would have just brought everything, but because you said something specific, right? But the lesson I learned is I just bring everything all the time, as much as you can. It just be prepared because you don't know what they're gonna want. I did a movie about a month ago, and uh it was called for Flugelhorn, and it was a solo, and they said, Yeah, let's let's try it on trumpet. I said, Okay, so I tried on trumpet and they said, No, let's let's try it on with a bucket mute. And I said, Okay, and I did that, and then they said, Give a bag you could put over your bell. And I didn't have a bag, and I was like, Oh man, I I I should have brought a bag, you know, like some they put those crown royal bags you throw over your belt. But Chris Martin was playing and he said, Man, I got I got one. So he he I use Chris Martin's my claim to fame. I use Chris Martin's Crown Royal bag on my uh on a movie, so it worked out, yeah. It worked out, but but it just goes to show you you gotta bring everything just because you never know what you're gonna need.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Do you ever find yeah, go ahead. No, that's a do you ever find that you need to bring different types of mutes or different different brands of mutes where it's like, okay, well, I need uh it says for cup mute, but not the humes and bird kind. I'm getting a different sound. I need to get Dennis Wick or the myriad of Cup Mutes that are you know out there.
SPEAKER_02Some people do that. I don't I don't usually do that. If I mean I'll ask if I'm playing a lower part, I'll ask the first player if they mind. But I just I just show up with my mutes. I'll sometimes I'll bring a regular straight mute and then a soft straight mute in case there's something really delicate. But my feeling is like, you know, you've got a Dennis Wick, I have a Hume Zeberg, whatever. I mean, I my feeling is unless everyone has the same horn and mouthpiece and airstream and oral cavity, I mean, the difference between like a copper bottom and a straight I mean I I think it's just I think people blow that out of proportion. I get it if you're in an orchestra and you want a certain thing, but that's not so much in in my world. Though I did a West Side Story with Philadelphia Orchestra once and uh Jeff Kernau was was playing and and he had five straight mutes and he brought five straight mutes on stage with him for West Side Story, and I was like, and and he goes, Well, this one's you know it's got a good low C on it, this one, you know, like and he had reasons for all of it, and I was like, Man, that's just so much deeper than I go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like that makes sense, but wow, like that. He sounded amazing, and and there was a reason for all of them, but I don't usually subscribe to that in the in the Broadway world anyway.
SPEAKER_00Sure, sure, okay, yeah. And then um do you you end up using in-ear monitors or their floor monitors a lot of the time, or does it kind of depend on the theater?
SPEAKER_02It does. Uh I I have yet to find an in-ear monitor system that that feels right for me. I have them, but I don't use them very often. And more and more shows are on headphones, uh, so I might have four pairs of headphones at my show. It's just it's nuts. But I end up just going back to the same Sonys that you know that I have when I record. And they're comfortable and they're they're pretty good. But there are a couple of times during the show where the stage is above us and it's really loud, and they stomp and it's like they stomp out of time with the with the click. So I have these gun muffle headphones I put on so that I can actually play time and not play with their stomping, you know, which just tends to be louder than anything I'm listening to.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, you learn little tricks over time, but yeah, yeah, it's like I'm like wanted to capture as many of those little tricks as I can, but it's like sometimes you just don't know about it. You just like you have to experience it and say, oh, you get there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I I'm yeah, in ears. I mean, I have there are plenty of subs at our show that use in ears and they they are great with them. I just you know, I can't for me it's just rattling around in my head, my own sound, and I you know, I I'm not I just maybe I just haven't found the right ones or sure.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, it is yeah, there's a different feeling for sure. Okay, maybe like uh last question for you. Um thank you again for all your time and yeah, thank you. And last question um is there anything you know now that you wish you would have known when you were younger and starting out?
SPEAKER_02Well, that's that's a really good question. I think that yeah, I I tend to overthink things sometimes. And uh I think sometimes it's best to just do things. I mean, obviously you want to have have thought into what you're doing, but the mind is very powerful. You can talk yourself in or out of a lot of stuff, whether that means nerves or or whatever, or like how do I approach this? Or, you know, I've had two students over the years that they'll pick up their horn and they're just like you can just see you can see the wheels turning and and they're you know, they're you know, they're they're working it out, and then like you know, they they they can't start a note. They literally can't, they almost like a uh like a tick or a stutter of some sort. And uh if I count them off, two, three, four, boom, they'll play. But if it's left, if left are their own devices, they can't execute. And and and it's just because I think they're they're overthinking things so much, and we all have a propensity to do that sometimes. But I'm I find myself overthinking constantly, and I wish I had just like tamped that down earlier in my career. I think I it would have been better. And just just sometimes you just gotta you just gotta play, you know. I mean, I I'm I'm you know, oh man, I think that you know, that clarinet player, I think I'm too loud because that clarinet player is like ducking whenever I play a high note. So now I'm now I play softer and now I'm cracking notes left and right. It's like sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do, and and and people will adjust and and and and not be so affected by the folks around you. That sounds silly because you want interplay and you want to be able to be affected by them, but at a certain point, you just have to kind of get the job done. And and and I think I think my my only advice to myself anyway would be to just not overthink everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's great. I love it. Yeah, there's I've been even this week trying to teach some some of my young students and they're they're they're asking about range. Like, I want to play high, and it's like, okay, play high play high C. This is how you know how it works and the mechanics and stuff, and then they're like overthinking about that's how it works, but also like don't think about just play, right? And it's like, oh, oh, it's like, yeah, like sometimes you just need to you know what to do, your body knows what to do, just do it. Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it's hard with the internet because as much as it helps us, it also hurts us. I had one student that he he's taking lessons with about 30 million trumpet players. I'm it's just like crazy. And he's got what do you think about the mosh? What do you think about the Adam? What do you think about? But you know, it's like at a certain point, you just gotta sit in the room and and do it, you know. Like, but because well, this person says this, and this person says this, and it's like that could be debilitating in a way.
SPEAKER_00We're almost learning too much. It's like too many schools of thought. Just just go here and whatever helps you get the job done, that's all you need to do, right?
SPEAKER_02I think I'm screening too much. Well, you know, you're I don't know. I I I don't think it's debilitating, but you know, you know, I think there's too much tension in my throat. It's like I I mean I I I don't really have an answer to that, really, other than like trying to relax. It's it's hard because you know it's it's not a normal process to blow air through your body and into a metal tube that's smashed against your face, you know. That's that's not normal. So we're gonna have different ways of like of coming to hopefully a good conclusion.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's this is yeah, that's great. Yeah, Tony, thank you so much again for taking your time to chat with us and share all this information and whatnot. Really appreciate it. I'm like sitting here learning, I'm like, wow, this is great. Like, I wanna where's my notebook? I'm excited to go back and listen to uh to this and uh and just glean all that awesome wisdom from you. So appreciate it again.
SPEAKER_02No, Jaden, I appreciate it. Thanks for doing this, and I really look forward to the finished product because it sounds like it's pretty comprehensive undertaking, as you said. It's taking years to come to fruition. So good for you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Yeah, it's taking a long time, but it's uh it's I think a a resource that I would have loved and a resource that I think a lot of people will find useful. And that's that's the hope, is that it's just whoever the you know small kid in Nebraska, small town, just like I want to play trumpet, I want to do it. Here you go, buddy. Like, here it is. You you go do it. So and uh thank you for being a part of it.
SPEAKER_02My pleasure. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00All right, thank you so much.