Horticulture Innovators
We started the ‘Horticulture Innovators’ podcast series to highlight the societal, economic, and research impact of horticulture and spread awareness about the amazing opportunities that exist to further the mission of sustainability, wellness, and food security. Please share these stories and join our humble efforts so that we can engage and prepare the next generation of horticulture professionals to sustain these amazing industries and keep our farmers economically competitive.
Horticulture Innovators
S5: Episode 4: Paul Christou and Teresa Capell - The Art of Science
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Dr. Teresa Capell is a Principal Investigator within the Agricultural Biotechnology Group at the UdL, since 2004. She became a full professor in 2011. Dr Capell is also an associate researcher of the CERCA Center, AGROTECNIO. She has been the PI of 5 different national projects since 2004. She discovered and developed a novel approach to engineer complex multistep metabolic pathways in plants exemplified by the creation of a combinatorial transgenic maize population accumulating extraordinary levels of carotenoids including β-carotene in the endosperm. Dr Capell oversaw the development of this work as described in Zhu et al., PNAS (2008), (Capell corresponding author). The later discovery was exploited to develop multivitamin corn which constitutes the most complex transgenic crop plant reported to date in which three distinct vitamin pathways were engineered simultaneously in the same plant reported in Naqvi et al., PNAS 2009; Dr Capell was a senior co-author on the paper and a co-inventor on a corresponding patent. Importantly she spearheaded efforts, which culminated in four very successful transgenic field trials with multivitamin corn in Lleida (2012-2015). She has developed her own independent research line on molecular pharming for the production of recombinant pharmaceuticals in plants (see e.g. Ramessar et al., PNAS 2008 and Vamvaka et al., PNAS 2018). She has been instrumental in the success of the project Pandemies, awarded by the Generalitat of Catalunya to the group, focusing on dissemination, communication and scientific aspects of SARS-CoV-2 (https://ilercovid.com/). As part of her activities within the Pandemies project, she supervised a PhD student who developed an efficient transformation system for Bomba rice (described in Saba-Mayoral et al., Transgenic Res 31: 325-340). This work served as a basis for a second paper in the Plant Biotechnology J. which described the production and accumulation of the Recognition Binding Domain of the SARS-CoV-2 S1 protein in a stably transgenic plant. The major impact of this work is that the system is easily transferable to developing countries. T. Capell is the corresponding author on this paper as well. She was awarded the Creu de Sant Jordi (2020) by the Generalitat of Catalunya, in recognition for her contributions to science and society.
Dr. Paul Christou received his BS Chemistry & PhD Plant Biochemistry, University College London. He was a Senior Scientist at Agracetus Inc., Madison, WI, USA, where he developed genetic transformation technology that lead his group to generate the first commercial crop sold by Monsanto (Roundup Ready Soybean). Subsequently he served as the Head of Molecular Biotechnology Unit, John Innes Centre, Norwich, UK-led the Tropical Maize and Rice Biotechnology Laboratory sponsored by the Rockefeller Foundation. Later he Headed the Crop Genetics & Biotechnology program, Fraunhofer Institute Molecular Biotechnology & Applied Ecology, Aachen, Germany. Universitat de Lleida as an ICREA Professor & Head of the Applied Plant Biotechnology Laboratory. Founding Director Agrotecnio CERCA Center, 2013-2015. Recipient of ERC Advanced Grant BIOFORCE and ERC PoC Grant Multinutrient Maize. Received 2 Bill & Melinda Gate's grants. PI in 14 EU projects over past 25 years 2 as coordinator and 2 as deputy coordinator. Recipient of Narcís Monturioll Medal 2020.
Aloy, welcome to Horticulture Innovators, the podcast series where we will explore impactful innovations in horticulture. I'm Ahmed Dingra, your host. I'm a professor and head of the Department of Horticultural Sciences at Texas AM University. In each episode, we'll explore the inspiring stories of the pioneers who are contributing to sustainability, wellness, and food security through their amazing work in horticulture. Howdy! Welcome Paul and Teresa. Today I'm really honored to uh have two of my mentors, friends, colleagues. Ever since I started my PhD, I've learned from them every time I've met them. So, Dr. Paul Christal and Dr. Teresa Capel. Thank you for joining us today for our podcast, which is titled Horticulture Innovators. And so today we're going to discuss about some of the challenges in food systems, and you've done so many projects which are not just local but global in nature. And we really wanted to talk about your journey, how you got here. Maybe we could start with you, Dr. Keppel. How did you get involved in the work you do and maybe speak a little bit about the type of work you do as well?
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Amit, for inviting us. Thank you, head of the department. It's an honor to be here and to be next to you. I mean, how I started all this, I'm coming from a farming community, and I learned from inside all the problems that farming has. And if we want a sustainable way of growing our crops, we really need to apply science to this. This is how I started my career by doing a degree in pharmacy, learning about natural products, how to increase the natural products to protect the plants by themselves. And then from here to biotechnology was just one step. And learning how to introduce genes was the next step. Wow. Then it was just a personal adventure to sort out the farming problems.
SPEAKER_02Cool, cool. Dr. Christopher. Well, I would like to start by also thanking you, Amit, for uh the invitation and the opportunity and the great hospitality. And we are really enjoying our time here very much. Now, uh, how did you st how did I start all this? I mean, I started my scientific career with a PhD in chemistry at the University of London, but um when I finished my PhD, it was the time when molecular biology really started impacting plants. So I made the switch gradually by first doing a postdoc in plant biochemistry, and then I had the great fortune to be recruited by the very first plant biotechnology company in the world, in the United States, uh Agracidas, which was based in Madison, Wisconsin. And that's where I started my journey in uh plant biotechnology.
SPEAKER_00That's so cool. And uh as I first of all, congratulations, you've recently uh reached superannuation, you've just uh retired, uh, which I know is doesn't mean anything for you because you're mostly you must be busier than before. But uh as we read the historical accounts of plant biotechnology, your name comes up that you were the one of the first people, or if not the first people, first person who introduced foreign DNA into soybean using gene gun. Can you share that sort of first experience and what type of gene guns were those?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean that takes me back to the uh mid-1980s. Wow. Uh so when I was recruited by Agresidas, I had just finished my postdoc at the University of London, and I was hired um to develop a transformation system for soya. Okay. So I arrived in Madison, Wisconsin in December 1982. It was 30 below. It was the first time I experienced extreme temperatures, and I said, okay, that's that's interesting. Let's see how how things develop from here. So anyway, so when I got uh to Agracidas, I was the fifth scientist they recruited. And then our director, uh Winston Brill, uh, gave us a free hand and a mandate. The free hand was to use whatever means possible to be the first group in the world to develop and patent gene transfer methods for the three most important UR US crops, corn, cotton and soya. And I landed Soya, not because I had any prior experience with Soya, um just because I guess it was the lack of the draw. So I took this assignment and Winston said, okay, we have 18 months to develop a transformation system for Soya. If you are successful, we all have a job. If you are not, 18 months from now we need to pack up and go home. So we started and um in the end we manage to develop a specific particle gun using electric discharge acceleration to propel microscopic gold particles into a meristem or a growing tip of soya uh embryo, and that's how we were able to generate the first um transgenic soya in 1986.
SPEAKER_00And that got commercialized, I heard, right?
SPEAKER_02Well that work was done um under contract from Monsanto, okay, and uh essentially the outcome of those experiments was the very first Rounda Predi soya, who proved to be the progenitor of um the early generation of Rounda Predi soya that were commercialized by Monsanto.
SPEAKER_00Well, I don't think people realize, but today in the US, I think over 95% of soybean are transgenic and they are all Roundup ready.
SPEAKER_02Correct.
SPEAKER_00So the work you did that in the 80s is having this global impact, not just here. Anywhere soybean has Roundup, that is the so that's just I just wanted to uh put that in context. How you do something which can have long-lasting impact like this? That's just amazing. Um and I I mean, on similar ways, Teresa, you've been involved in several projects, and uh you you're at the University of Ieda, and over there, what are some of those early projects that you started working on that continue to propel further some of the work you're doing?
SPEAKER_01Uh, you need to realize that in there we can work with transgenics, but we cannot plan them. Okay. Then our research is most on serials but basic research because we cannot do it translational. Then the problem, the project that I got most excited with was when we did the betacarot and corn.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We introduced the betacarotem pathway into corn. And I mean, the first seed we saw that it was a picture at a PhD student we had Shai that sent to us. When we saw this grain of corn that instead of yellow was tomato red, it was really, really impressive. That means we knew we could achieve it. Then we developed the whole project. I mean, from few grains we went to thousand kilos. And we did analyze it and we really increased the content of pro-vitamin A in this corn that could be used for lots of things, for human consumption and also for animal, to make pin so. And this was where we took the project to make flour and and then do different tests, uh giving it in a diet in chickens, in hens, in pigs, and even we did a human trial. If we could manage to pass the pro-vitamin A to blood in humans, but it was not possible. But we reached even this point. We also demonstrated by using rats in chronic experiments that this did not have any bad effect on animals. Wow. I mean that it was good. We it was a very, a very complete experiment.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, I wanted to say that it was 1999. I was a graduate student, and I saw that Ingo Porticus released the golden rice at the time. And that is the time the statistics said that 90,000 infants die because of pro-vitamin A deficiency uh every year in India alone. And uh uh unfortunately there has been just so much challenge with that adoption of that. But people have heard about the golden rice, but not about the golden corn. Um, where does it sit right now? You said you were uh feeding it to uh chicken and a hands. Is that has that become been commercialized?
SPEAKER_01Not really not. Because you know in Europe we have a difficulty for commercializing transgenic crops, but perhaps could uh Paul could elaborate a little bit more in I mean in our African Um We developed uh this corn um with the intent to pass it on to colleagues in South Africa who would then deregulate it and disseminate it throughout sub-Saharan Africa.
SPEAKER_02Unfortunately the the potential product got embroiled in the regulatory in the South African regulatory system and also um it received a lot of legal challenges from environmental organizations uh organizations who characterized it as a Trojan horse to introduce transgenics into sub-Saharan Africa. And in the end, um the legal challenges became so formidable, so our uh collaborators decided not to pursue it any further, regrettably.
SPEAKER_00And currently, I think I remember uh so uh I met you first when I was starting my PhD. So you've been an inspiration, and then I got me to Teresa. The kind of projects you do are really transformative, not just transformation of the plant, but also they can have a major impact on people's health, uh, just the molecular farming platform that you both have been pioneering in. Uh it's it's kind of a shame. I just just wanted to understand what is the beta-carotene level in corn without this engineering, and how much enhancement do you see?
SPEAKER_02Okay, I mean in a carotenoid context, there are two different types of corn.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02White and yellow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02White corn makes trace amounts of lutein and zeazanthin, which are the yellow pigments that are in the macula of our eye. Um so if people eat white corn, they get absolutely no carotenoids. Now, yellow corn contains uh between 1.5 and 3.5 micrograms per gram lutein and zeazanthin. However, corn does not make provitamin A carotenoids. So our high carotenoid corn makes in the order of 50 micrograms per gram beta-carotene. And just to put it in perspective, golden rice 2 accumulates 36 micrograms per gram beta-carotene. The other uh thing that corn does, uh our high carotenoid corn does that uh golden rice does not do is that in addition to beta-carotene, it also accumulates very high levels of lutein and zeazanthin and also lycopene, which is um an anti-cancer um carotenoid. So we have uh a line of corn which makes the four, which accumulates rather, the four nutritionally important carotenoids at very high level.
SPEAKER_00Wow. I'm just just thinking that it's a missed opportunity. Uh has there been any attempt to commercialize that in the United States or all it's already commercialized here?
SPEAKER_02Well, we don't have the resources.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02And um in terms of commercializing a GM crop, even in the US, it's a very formidable task. And the there was a parallel program in the Harvest Plus uh program where through conventional breeding um researchers at Purdue were able to develop a strain of corn which accumulated more uh modest amounts of beta carotene, uh far below what our transgenic corn could accumulate. And if my memory serves me correctly, this was commercialized in Zambia as a non-GMO corn, but I I haven't followed up, so I don't know if they still grow it in Zambia.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Um related to all this, while you've been pioneering plant molecular farming uh biotechnology, you've trained a large number of students. Uh would you like to summarize where they all came from? And I've heard the number, it's way above 100.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean we have students from all over the world. But what I would like to say is, for example, now we had in the lab just before the pandemic two Chinese girls arrived to do her PhD, Xin and Guensu. And it was really hard time because they arrived just before the pandemia, they couldn't live for three years, and the fact was that we had such a great relationship that now they are still with us doing her postdoc. Then yes, we do have students from all over the world. We have an excellent relationship with them, and we what we are trying after is to get them positions or to help them to get positions all over the world. We have, I don't know, everywhere. It's nice.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, uh through the last uh three and a half decades, yes, we graduated over 150 PhD students, about 50 postdocs from 37 different countries. Wow. I'm proud to say that many of them achieved very high positions. Two of them were former ministers of agriculture in Rwanda and Vietnam respectively. We have a number of senior uh directors of um prominent institutions in India, in China, uh in the Philippines, uh in a number of uh South American countries and others. So this is very rewarding, uh, and we have maintained a very good relationship with pretty much all of them. Um privileged to call a lot of them as friends, and uh, as a matter of time, some of them have started retiring already.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's just fascinating to think because uh in the US system, or at least you know you can maximum 30, 40. But how did this happen? How did you open the whole world? Because you're you're based in Spain, and how did you and or maybe before that, before Spain you were in, of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_01We should talk about the John Innes Fair and the program we had with the Rockefeller Foundation.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so I started my career in industry. Yeah, and I did the opposite of what most people do. I made the transition from industry to academia rather than the norm, which is I guess in most cases going from academia to industry. Yeah. So the reason I went to academia uh is because at Agracidas, in addition to developing a transformation system for soya, we also used rice as a model system to develop uh genotype independent systems for cereals in general, including core. And we really managed to develop a genotype independent transformation system for rice. And fortuitously, that was the time uh that the Rockefeller Foundation initiated its program on rice biotechnology. And a big component of that program was to train scientist rice scientists from rice-growing countries from throughout the world uh on rice genetic transformation and biotechnology so they could go back to their own countries and uh set up facilities and infrastructure to be able to practice rice biotechnology in their own countries. And the Rockefeller Foundation established two uh such training centers. One was at the laboratory of um uh Roger Bici and Claude Fouquet uh at Scripps in San Diego, and the other was at the John Innes Center in Norwich in the United Kingdom. Okay, and this is where I went with generous funding from the Rockefeller Foundation, and that's where we received a lot of uh trainees from all over the world. And then we continued our training program uh through funding from other sources, subsequently in Germany at the Fraunhofer Institute, and for the past 20 years in Spain, through generous support from the Spanish government and um the University of Yeda and the European Union.
SPEAKER_00That's wonderful. It's almost reminiscent of some of the previous work done by Dr. Norman Bolock, who used to be a professor at AM, who actually received funding from the Rockefeller Foundation and then later by the Ford Foundation to really develop uh rust-resistant wheat. And uh people like me from India are alive because of that. And then we of course had scientists who also uh made uh rice uh dwarf varieties like Dr. Gurdhev Kush as well. So, yeah, it's it's a fascinating impact they've had. In fact, I'm a beneficiary of the Rockefeller Pre-Doctoral Fellowship that brought me to the US in '99 to learn chloroplast engineering in rice as well. I went to the other PAL. Yeah, no, this is really fascinating, and it's almost reminiscent of like a big banyan tree, which is really uh with all the roots everywhere around the world. And I think that's the impact of science that can happen. So you really made uh collectively a contribution to the world uh in that sense. And I know that we we this was the remnant from the Green Revolution days when we were trying to make sure that there are enough calories on the table. So the emphasis has been a lot on cereals. And since I'm in the Department of Horticultural Sciences, of course, I wanted to just speak to you about a little bit about uh any horticultural crops that you had a chance to work with while like any other model system like tomato or other fruit crops.
SPEAKER_01The the thing is, Amit, when you said before about our this program we've had transforming corn, even though we couldn't transfer to the technology to the company, we transfer The knowledge.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Then we have this knowledge. Like when we were at the Johniness, we knew how to transform with the hand with the gun. And the gun is a physical meaning of introducing a transgene. What means any crop that you have a regeneration system, you can transform it. Then we had colleagues doing pepper. Oh. Yeah, that they came. There were several that, because we all not only had students, PhD students or postdocs, we had lots of visiting scientists just coming there, bringing their own tissue, using the gun, doing the transformation and living after four or five uh weeks with their own tissue transformed, and they would follow in their own countries the projects they had. I mean, then yeah, we did some horticultural plants. Me, I remember Pepper.
SPEAKER_02We also tried oil palm.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02But I I I never followed up. I don't know if that in the end worked out. Uh we had a project with cowpeas.
SPEAKER_01Um the sugar beet. Sugar beet that we couldn't manage.
SPEAKER_02Which it was a very tough nut to crack. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But almost anything that could be bombarded, we would bombard. Whether we would transform it or not. Perhaps we didn't succeed, but we tried. We tried lots of things.
SPEAKER_02But just to be fair, we never really engaged with horticultural crops because our focus has always been cereals, which um which are a handful by by themselves. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, I wanted to say that I think the perspective of growing up in India during the times of food shortages in the 80s, I mean, generally the availability of food, not just in households, but just the general availability. And uh the idea was let's first bring cereals. And uh ever since I've taken be been in horticultural sciences since 2006, and then taking on this role here, it's becoming, and I wanted to hear your thoughts on that, is uh it's becoming apparent that our diet, which we are talking about, there's a lot of emphasis now on nutrition. And just like you engineered corn, because most people access, everybody accesses cereals first. But in our cultures, if you go back to indigenous cultures around the world, they all had some mainstay horticulture crop, which was a permanent crop, or that's what they were growing vegetables. Is is do you think that that might be another platform or a better platform perhaps to deliver some of the nutrition? Because phytochemicals uh like fruits and vegetables and nuts are naturally rich in some of these phytochemicals. What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01Maybe Teresa, you can I mean the thing is each farming community is used to grow certain things, fine?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01And it's difficult sometimes to introduce the new thing that is required for the diet. Then what I would say, me, I come from Spain, where when I was little we did have enough to eat, and it was good quality, but we were just farmers, we were sort of poor farmers that we wanted to go out of this minimal level of life. We wanted as well to have new clothes, the girls, and to go on holiday. Then for us to acquire these new technologies, like to be able to plant hybrid corn, yeah, mean more income. Yes, mean better level of life. Perhaps not is not only about better nutrition. Countries where we already had our basic, we wanted a better level of life. This is why no. We miss these new technologies to being able to still be competitive because my family were still farmers. We want to be competitive, then we want to use the latest technologies. And we are used to have a very a big variety of food. But one thing is the variety you have to eat, but the other is what you need to make money for the farm. And this is where you want to be competitive and use the latest technologies. This is my general opinion about this.
SPEAKER_02Just to, I mean, absolutely agree with that. Uh, but in addition, I mean it makes perfect sense to try and endow uh crops grown locally with as many nutrients as you possibly can.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And um in fact, that was the philosophy of the Harvest Plus program to a large extent.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh also the Gates Foundation. And uh you see that um a number of labs throughout the world got funding and developed uh sweet potato, cassava, beans, and other vegetables uh for local uh sustainable uh production. So, yes, it makes perfect sense.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's also the habits, and I I I think the some of the projects that Rockefeller Foundation was funding, for example, in the US and Mexico, was to really reach out where subsistence farming, you basically really need to survive first. Yes, the calorie needs. I think that's sort of continued. And the FAO just released their report uh on October 16th, which is the World Food Day, and they did say that they have not been able to meet, they have failed to meet the hunger and nutrition uh goalposts that they had set. And I think that's where, however, the conversation remains limited to cereals, and I think that's where we are realizing uh within our discipline that there is an opportunity. So we have certain programs uh here, of course, our mission is around sustainability, wellness, and food security. Environment is a big part of sustainability, but also profitability for our farmers, whatever knowledge, because in the end, how will they adopt it? And then one leg of the sustainability is our students actually. Without that, we can't sustain the future, just like you shared that you have trained so many people around the world, and they've trained so many beyond that. So I think this is chain reaction. Absolutely. So, in terms of wellness, which is both mental and physical health right now, uh more on the mental health side, because we are really facing, especially because of the pandemic, we're really facing those issues. So, in terms of as you have really uh reached that part of your career, uh, you know, would it would it be something different you would have done, knowing what you know today? I know it's a trick question. Not for you, okay?
SPEAKER_01I would have done the same because at every moment I did my best with the knowledge I had. And I work as hard as I could because I always thought that at the end I would bring something back to my community, and I did. Whether they can apply it or not is a different matter, but I brought the knowledge, and now my community has the knowledge, and at least they can judge and they know if this is something good or not. At least I brought the knowledge back. Then no, I wouldn't do anything else different.
SPEAKER_02Paul, what's your answer to that? I agree with that. I mean, I looking back, yeah, I feel that we did the right things at the right time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Of course, we didn't have the tools, the technological tools, to do things better 30, 40 years ago. Uh but looking back, the approach, uh, the targets, I wouldn't change any of that.
SPEAKER_00Well, we were talking about wellness. Thank you for that. I mean, that's just a perspective, and I think this is a very refreshing answer because you know you can't live two lives together. I mean, there's no way. But uh talking about wellness, I think a lot of the discussion is going around people's choices, the behavioral choices. We may create a lot of, I mean, all there are healthy choices available in the developed world, yet that's where the pandemic the epidemic of obesity, high blood pressure, or the metabolic disorders are at their maximum in the developed world. I mean, I know we're trying to meet the hunger and nutrition needs for the rest of the world, but in the developed part of the world, we are dealing with the overconsumption or wrong consumption. And that's where I think the idea of the space of science communication that you entered in as well. We'll talk about that in a second. How do we tackle? Do you have any thoughts on that part? How do we change people's behavior rather than pick uh uh fast food versus less processed food or a fresh vegetable? What's is there a change we can bring? I I know this is a very global big question.
SPEAKER_01I think the problem we are having, Alice is what I see, is that every time we cook less at home, then because we cook less, we train our children less in what it was good uh good healthy habits of eating. And we cook less at home because we are busier at work and doing more things. Then it's our level, good level of life that takes us to do so many things that we forget our basics, that is to cook properly and to eat properly. Then to change this is difficult because nobody wants to stop going out for a drink or doing something extra, just to be one hour more in the kitchen. Then, since we cannot change this habit, perhaps what we we should make sure is that the food that we buy or we eat or all this will be healthier. Yeah. Perhaps we should uh work on this side, because for what I see, at least in Spain, every time we dedicate less time to cooking and more time to going out and to getting fast food, then I don't know, I don't know how to address this.
SPEAKER_00Any thoughts, Paul?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that's a very complex question. I think Theresa addressed it pretty well. However, I see very little we scientists, at least in our field, can do because we are not at the right position in the chain. I think uh there is a role here for nutritionists and professional communicators to try and instill in the younger generation that eating healthily at a young age would pay hefty dividends later in life. So I think you are talking about about a strategy which would address changes in behaviour more than anything else. And obviously neither Teresa nor I or probably nor you have the expertise to address that. So but this is why perhaps a more concerted effort needs to be mobilized to include many individuals with diverse expertise, including social sciences, to actually um help with education by demonstrating the bef benefits of uh healthy food choices.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00You know that's a very interesting point because of this lack of I mean this is a there's a parallel in our science, right? People against anything that is genetically modified when actually all our crops have been improved through human interventions. I mean, that's a broader definition of genetic modification. And some of the scientists uh in the at least in the US or in in the world have taken the mental to go out and inform people because I think that's a gap which brings a lot of I mean, if if a social scientist starts doing that suddenly, or any s any individual starts talking about technology in food, they become uh I I guess there's a pushback and a societal like uh pushback on that. So it's kept a lot of people away from that field. But I think if you are to solve those goals of nutrition and and hunger, we have to bring technology in in the food as well. And I I think that that is a challenge. But I know that Risa, you have started doing you've started using a very creative process or media to reach out to the masses, to appeal to them in a different way, rather than having a dialogue or not even a dialogue, sometimes a debate, because that really doesn't get us anywhere. Could you share what your efforts have been recently?
SPEAKER_01Okay, the thing is I realized that 300 years ago nobody could take pictures.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we didn't have mobiles, we didn't have TV, and then artists had to explain science through paintings. And this is still real today. You see a painting of 200 or 300 years ago with a fruit or a lettuce or uh something, a plant. And the painter painted the disease this plant was having, either a little worm, either a yellow mark, something, and is telling you 300 years ago we already had this disease. But you are seeing it in a painting. Then I thought perhaps I should do the same. Perhaps I should paint our genetically engineered uh products, put them in a painting, and perhaps people will just looking at them would accept them like they accept, oh, 300 years ago we had this disease, we still have it now. Oh, we have this orange colour. Fine, perhaps this is something that always has been there. Then what I'm trying is I'm converting the results of the laboratory into oil paintings. Then I do print and I distribute them all over the place, hoping that somebody is looking at them as a piece of art that is combining a message about science. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So how has that been perceived? Because of course you distribute it beyond the community, beyond our scientific community.
SPEAKER_01Uh one I have to tell you, I visit the Weissman Institute in Iran. Yeah, and I saw one of my paintings hanging there. I go directly there and say, Oh, this is fantastic. And everybody looking at me and saying, Oh, you like the painting as well. I said, Yes, of course I like it. I did it. And I was like everybody was shocked, and I was shocked, we were all shocked. But for me, it was fantastic because people liked it. Yeah. And the same at the Max Plan in Gaul, there is a meeting room where there is all the paintings are hanging in there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And they are like a piece of conversation. And even myself.
SPEAKER_00I had one of our common connections come to my office and see your painting. They say, Oh, do you know Teresa? Yeah, fine, okay.
SPEAKER_01But I think this because then it's a piece of conversation. And if you talk about something, if you talk a lot about something, then it became it something natural. Yeah. If you don't talk about it, it's a taboo. But if you talk about it, then it just became part of your daily life. Then this is the only idea I had that I thought perhaps talking about transgenics every day when you go to places, then they will just become part of our culture.
SPEAKER_02What Teresa didn't mention is what I think is an even is a is is is what she I mean what she did had an impact at a different level as well. Because because of the nature of our research, we very often host visits by local and national politicians in the lab. And uh Teresa, as a matter of fact, got invited to the Spanish Congress by the chair of the Agriculture Committee to talk about GMOs. And then and there have been many opportunities like that to interact with uh congressmen, senators, ministers in Spain and elsewhere. And then I can tell you, whenever Teresa goes, she always carries a huge bag of the painting on my art because of their art, she distributes them, and without exception, the response is overwhelmingly positive. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And they hang them, they hang them in walls to show it. That means not that means after they are going to talk about them, and this is the objective.
SPEAKER_00I think so, in a way, you create you extend the shelf life or the half-life of the topic and the conversation for as long as the painting is in their room. People are going to ask because they are striking, they are beautiful, and they go, What is that? I've had that happen to me in my office previously. They would say, What is this? And then I will say, Let me tell you the story.
SPEAKER_01Fine, okay. Thank you. And here are my other paintings. Thank you, thank you. But yeah, it has been an effort of the last 20 years because now when I have five minutes, of course I sit and I paint.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, no, this is fascinating. I wanted to just wrap it up and just talk a little bit about how, I mean, this is a very global question. None of us have answers, but we all think about how can we contribute and what can we do. So I have like a two-part question. First of all, would be as you have, you've obviously uh now continue to contribute to science in a different way or in a different capacity. Um, how are we going to secure our the the goal that you know uh the the world uh the food uh FAO has for hunger and nutrition? How are we going to fulfill that? I mean it's 2030 is not that far away, population is growing. I mean, do you have any thoughts?
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah, I mean you see, I mean, the various agencies, including the UN, remember with the uh sustainable development goals, yeah. Uh there have been targets set for food and nutrition and elimination or reduction of poverty. And we have never today been able to meet those targets. I don't want to sound uh pessimistic, uh but I I'll be I'll phrase it in a positive way uh by saying that I will be overwhelmed if uh the 2030 target uh to achieve um uh uh elimination of hunger or to achieve uh nutrition uh better nutrition by by 2030 is is met. I'm not optimistic um but let's let's be positive and hope that uh we'll continue getting closer. Now what can we do? I don't think a single individual can do much. I think um he would take concerted actions involving public-private partnerships and there is a role of the private uh sector to get involved. Um and perhaps by engaging more actors things can advance a little bit faster and the goals can be made a little bit easier.
SPEAKER_01Me, I'm going to be a little bit tougher, fine. These goals are always set up by wealthy countries and the pressure to achieve them is not the same pressure that they have the countries that they need. Yeah, then if we achieve them it's fine, but if we don't achieve them it's cruel, but it's fine because we set them up. And I think it's not fair. We try to sort out their problems, but we shouldn't try, we should help them, to help them self, to sort them out. And I think this is the point. We are very idealistic in Europe. If we say one thing, we do another one, then I don't know what is the answer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well we don't, because that's why we haven't met the target. So I mean I I feel there's a bigger role for the younger generation to be inspired and be pushing for this and think of us as a global community because unrest in other parts then tends to balance out in calmer parts because this is how uh the world operates or has operated historically. So, in that respect, I mean I'm I'm of course thinking about horticulture, which can provide economic so smallhold farmers definitely do grow tomatoes and vegetables. Because they're high value, low volume, high value crops. And I think we've been kind of, we have some ag economists who mentioned that if you really want to revive an economy and also have the nutritional needs met, because if you have better money, we were talking about earlier, you can then have access to other things. So, how do you really revive smallhold farming economies is through uh low-volume, high-value crops, which would be fruits, vegetables, nuts, uh, animal crops, permanent crops, a combination of all those. In that sense, do you think the discipline, of course, I'm asking you to endorse my discipline, but also what's the message to our younger generation? Because a lot of them are thinking I'm gonna just go on AI or do something else, but getting involved in food. I mean, what what what message would you like to give to our students or people who are interested in pursuing higher education in promoting horticulture or agriculture?
SPEAKER_01The message will be whatever you do, have an objective and achieve it. Fine? Work hard to achieve your objective. If you achieve your objective, then you will be able to help everybody else, because you will achieve your objective. If you don't achieve your objective, then just work hard, achieve your objective, and then you will be able to achieve more objective.
SPEAKER_02I mean, in addition to that, I would say that I have uh great faith and hope in the new generation, the younger generation, because they come with an advantage. And they come with many advantages, but probably one of the most important advantages is that they are more technologically astute than our generation. And perhaps they can think out of the box and they can offer a new approach, uh, new strategies, new ways of doing things. And perhaps they can do better in areas we could have done better. So yes, uh I would uh definitely encourage the younger generation of uh horticultural, agricultural uh scientists and I'm sure they have they will have the uh technical expertise, way of thinking and drive to contribute substantially to all these goals.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, with that, I just want to thank both of you and congratulations to you uh for your promo uh for your uh retirement, which is promotion in a way as well.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I don't know if it's appropriate to congratulate somebody for retiring. Um that's what they uh um I'm I'm not sure. I need to think about that. Okay, but thank you anyway. You've been very kind and uh we appreciate the opportunity to share with you some of our thoughts and uh ideas in in this field.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, very and I also you brought a very good European perspective to this because food, access to food, access to nutrition is a global issue, and this really uh adds to what we've been discussing through this podcast, actually. So I really want to thank both of you and congratulations on all the work you've done, contributions, and I'm sure this will continue. You've already planted the seeds all around the world and plant plants because in horticulture usually we have micropropagated plants, so you've done that, and of course I've been a beneficiary of your mentoring as well. So thank you very much for being here today. Thanks to you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much. Thank you, thank you.
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