Charting Your Path with Casting Director Stacy Clark

Charting Your Path with Casting Director Stacy Clark

Episode snapshot

Former elite gymnast and pro circus artist Stacy Clark ( Former Director of Casting at Cirque du Soleil) joins me to unpack how artists actually get seen, get hired, and build careers that fit their lives. We talk personalized career paths (with or without circus school), where to network so it counts, the video materials that make casting care, and how to stay on the radar—while being a great human to work with.

What you’ll learn

• There’s no single “right” path. Map the route that fits your strengths, timing, and life context.
• Clarity first, outreach second. Know your end game so your networking and submissions are strategic.
• Video is the driver. What reels help you get noticed (and what never gets used to hire).
• Range vs. identity. Show elastic range without being “everything to everyone.”
• Stay visible while working. Update casting and contacts without going radio silent.
• Humans hire humans. Reliability, communication, and presence are tie-breakers.

Conversation highlights (guide, not strict timestamps)

• 01:00 — Debunking the “magic door” myth: many paths into the industry
• 06:30 — Self-assessment without comparison: defining your strengths + end game
• 12:40 — Where to show up (festivals, hubs, digital) and how to network with intention
• 20:15 — Your materials: teaser vs. full act vs. general demo (and when to use each)
• 28:10 — Showing range the smart way (elasticity without losing your voice)
• 35:00 — Submitting while on contract: when it’s strategic vs. a time-waster
• 41:20 — Staying on the radar: simple update cadence that respects everyone’s time
• 48:00 — The “good human” factor: coachability, follow-through, and fit

Stacy’s quick wins

• Make them care: Lead with the video that best proves how you perform—not just what you can do.
• Tailor, don’t spray: Curate submissions to the actual need; show why you’re a fit.
• Keep a living intro: A tight, practiced 20–30s self-intro (and a short written bio) ready to go.
• Update light, but regular: Short, no-ask emails when you wrap, start, or become available.

Action steps for this week

1. Define your aim: Write your current “end game” in one sentence.
2. Audit your video kit: Ensure you have (a) a full uncut act, (b) a clean general demo, (c) a short teaser.
3. Draft y

Thanks so much for listening to The Artist Behind the Art.
This podcast exists to support performers in building sustainable, aligned, and castable careers — beyond just the skills.

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Transcript

Speaker 3 0:01

Welcome to the Artist Behind the Art, the podcast that lists the curtain on what it takes to thrive as a professional performer. I'm your host, Jennifer Pierce, artist coach, creative strategist, and lifelong advocate for performers who are ready to go from unsure to unforgettable. This is where the gatekeeping ends and your journey to thriving in the industry begins. Let's dive in.

Speaker 2 0:30

Welcome back to the Artist Behind the Art. Today we are joined by Stacey Clark, former elite gymnast and professional circus artist who then moved to an amazing career that included 13 years at Cirque de Soleil, where she was a talent scout acrobatic coach, and then director of casting, managing the sourcing and development. Of multidisciplinary talent for some of the world's most iconic productions. Stacey now is a freelance casting director, career coach, and artistic advisor. Stacey Casts talent for renowned circus and live entertainment companies. Works one-on-one with artists on act design and career goals, and regularly serves as host and moderator at circus industry panels and workshops. Stacy is also great at asking fantastic questions that helps you arrive at your own personal truth, and I am so excited to invite you into our conversation of how to chart your path. With or without circus school, where to network. So it counts what videos actually move you forward and how to stay on casting's radar while being a great human to work with. If you're ready to turn clarity into momentum, let's jump in.

Speaker 4 1:44

Hi Stacy. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Hello, Jennifer. It is really

Speaker 5 1:48

my pleasure to chat with you.

Speaker 4 1:50

So I am so excited to bring you on, artists if you are looking to talk to an amazing person that can really kickstart your career. Stacy is just a wealth of information and she is just really, an empathetic communicator that asks questions that really gets you to the destination. So I am so excited to have you on today.

Speaker 5 2:16

It's a nice setup, circus careers. There's so much to say about it. I'm gonna dive into the individual path, toward a circus career because this is a recurring point of discussion, I would say in my coaching practice, and I speak specifically to my one-to-one coaching practice that you've alluded to already. This idea of really getting personal because we'll talk about that too. Getting personal about how it is that one can map one's career. So one of the things that comes up an awful lot is I didn't do X, I didn't take this particular path y. All the different versions of what one hadn't done to already be where they are. And that was a bit of a burden, something that people carry some weight on their shoulders over. And the recurring one is, I didn't go to circus school.

Speaker 4 3:15

Sometimes there's, I can definitely sympathize with that. Yes, I'm

Speaker 5 3:18

sure. As a studio owner and as somebody who trains people who comes in, uh, who come in at all different levels and who might start a little bit later in their career, uh, or in their life as it relates to age or perhaps are transitioning from a different type of discipline or sport. I suspect you've run into this, uh, similarly and I think it's really important to understand first where you are. Right now with everything that you have done, not what you haven't done, but what you have done and how that connects to where you wanna go next and what you aspire to, there's not a whole lot of value in carrying around something you can't change anyway or cannot undo. But there's tremendous value in reframing what you have done and then actually strategically setting your mind toward how that can serve you for your end game. And with that. Comes the responsibility of determining what is the end game? What are you trying to do? Where are you going? How do you know how to get there if you don't know where you're going? So the individual path toward a circus career for me is delightfully varied, and that's how it should be because that is the very nature of circus arts. It's so tremendously varied. It incorporates all kinds of diff different disciplines, different uh, athletic backgrounds, different in influences, whether that's cultural, whether that is, uh, just life experience. Whether it is your artistic vision, your artistic voice. It's supposed to be varied. This is why it's so much fun. It's why it's circus. So I try to debunk this myth that there's only one way in that there's this magic glowing door that you need to know how to unlock to get in. It's just not how it works. There's so many different pathways, and they are as unique as each individual following the pathway.

Speaker 4 5:14

I definitely agree. I think, I can hear everyone have a collective sigh of relief because if you don't go a certain path, you can feel like you're missing out or did you not make a connection? But there are so many ways to enter the door, whether it's front door, back door. Competitions get you exposure, um, taking just workshops and meeting different, directors at studios and putting yourself in front of different audiences can really open up those doors. Are there any, um, places or spaces you would encourage other artists to put themselves into, be able to find, these connections?

Speaker 5 5:53

There absolutely are. And you've just mentioned a whole bunch of them. The, the through line, the, as we say, is. Is networking is actually getting to know the industry, getting to know the people and the inner workings. But I think if we reverse engineer that question, we'll go back to making sure you know what it is that you're going after and that you've been able to reconcile for your own self first, who you are, what you have to offer, and where that best belongs. Sometimes there's a bit of a disconnect there, and that can be a bit of a tough love conversation around. What someone's true strengths are, and their genuine capacity and potential is as it relates to the dream they have or this singular goal that they have that everything else doesn't match up to or just can't possibly bring the same type of value that they have assigned to this one goal. So I wanna dismantle all of that because. It's really important to know where it is that you're headed so that you can then be strategic and do what you've just said. Get yourself out there and start to be seen and start to participate and, and be active, uh, both digitally because that's the world we live in today and as much as possible in the industry to actually get to know the human being. A couple of examples of course would be things like festivals, competitions, gatherings, places where like-minded people go, where industry people go. Certain big city hubs have great training centers where a lot of that action can happen other times. For those who are a little further afield, it, it takes a very. Strong sense of devotion to be able to financially and logistically prepare yourself to go to those places because it may not be in your own backyard. But I think this idea of in immersing yourself, and again, both digitally and in real person life, can bring a tremendous amount of value.

Speaker 4 7:57

Most certainly what questions, because you had alluded to it before about that being honest where you are, and for you, what questions would you have someone pose to themselves before they take those next steps?

Speaker 5 8:13

The kind of self-reflection, I think, well, it's very individual of course, how it is that one can get to the essence of themselves. I would like to think people can strip away ego, first of all, and by ego, I don't mean a sense of arrogance, but just that the sense of ego that drives us as individuals, meaning that there is some judgment assigned to things that are more important than, or lesser than. As far as success measures, really get to the sense of what it is that makes you tick as a circus artist. What are those strengths on the spectrum of technical, artistic, expressiveness, performer, quality, uh, capacity to create, interact, collaborate, be a great team member. Like really the assessment of what all of your human strength attributes are, both as a human, because we want good humans that we work with. And also as an artist, being able to understand that first and foremost. Talent is what gets hired. We, we can't deny that there's a certain standard in the industry talent, how that talent is packaged and brought to the table. That can be tremendously, uh, subjective and variable. It should be, it should be unique to each person. If somebody, and here's the tough, low part, just isn't good enough. That's real. That is real out there in the industry. Sometimes there are places that you simply can't quite get to or objectives that you may not be able to achieve because you just simply don't play in that league. Now, the beautiful thing is there's a lot of different kinds of opportunities out there that are so welcoming to people of. Different levels and different qualities. So it's not a greater than lesser than game, it's more about what is it that I do have that really matters to that space, to that production, to that show, to that artistic director, whatever the project is, and how can I bring my best self to that? There's a lot of companies out there, most

Speaker 4 10:31

certainly.

Speaker 5 10:32

Yeah. And you see it with your students. You're gonna know, I suspect, uh, that somebody has perhaps more. Natural talent. Other people have a very strong worth ethic. Sometimes when there's a convergence of both, then we have the superstars. They manage to, to pull the most out of them. But this gave this whole world, this artistic world, which is this marriage of technical and artistic. It's not just about. Being the best in a, in a linear, measurable way. It's about being the best fit or the best appropriate collection of amazingness for that project. And most certainly, this is where we need to guide people and help kind of direct them toward, well, what does that mean? What is that project? You know, if somebody's much more. Ensemble based or creatively driven and has strong influences that bring storytelling into their work, they may or may not be the right fit for other kinds of companies, uh, or opportunities that have a very rigorous technical standard. If somebody is a little bit more interpretive and, uh, likes to do work that doesn't necessarily. Count on having the best extension, best lines, most refined aesthetic in their body architecture. Well, there's lots of other places where their amazing acting and storytelling and physical theatrics, married with acrobatics can be shared. So knowing what it is that you bring to the table, I think is super key. In order then to best decide, where can I excel? Where can those strengths? Um, be best showcased. So that was a rambling way of saying ask questions of yourself, which for me, it's not any specific question, but it's a constant self-assessment, which is really different than comparison. Comparison is evil. This is one of the downsides of the, the digital world that we keep referencing this, uh, world of social media where we have eyes on everything and everyone. Arguably access to too much. Sometimes it's not about comparing yourself, it's about really defining yourself and understanding what it is that you do best, best for you, not best as compared to, but what just naturally comes to you that can be enhanced and augmented, and then hopefully put in front of an audience.

Speaker 4 13:03

Most certainly. That reminds me of one of my favorite quotes that all progress starts by telling the truth. So really being truthful. You know, what skill sets do you have? Where are your strengths and where do you maybe need to fill in those gaps? And I think a lot of artists, they look at the. You know, the ultimate career that they would love to have and that it's, it's that or nothing. And I think it's so important to know that there are so many different ways that you can take in your career that ultimately can lead you to that spot that you are going for and being accepting of that journey that it may take you to get there.

Speaker 5 13:43

I agree, and I would suggest even that you may not get to where you thought you were supposed to be going. There may be other doors opening along the way, which is the beauty of being so real, authentic, ISS a bit of a buzzword, but it, it is a meaningful world word. We know what that means, uh, in terms of being honest with yourself, being true and authentic to what you know you can do will get you where you need to be, where you're meant to be. Sometimes that's where the disconnect comes in. That's a different place than what you first thought or what you first aspire to before you did some of that deeper work of developing yourself as an artist. The journey for me, the whole thing should be a journey. It's not a means to an end. Every single opportunity in front of people with people as an artist. Grows you as an artist, and it's really about the journey, not just the destination.

Speaker 4 14:44

I 100% agree. So as far as the understanding your why,'cause we've definitely been talking holistically, not just about the being, you know, the career and work, but um, I know you and I have had discussions about it, so important about how life. You know, just living fits into your career. Uh, what are some questions that you think are important that artists ask of themselves when deciding to, um, strive for a certain company and how that may fit into their decisions, whether that really is a good fit or not?

Speaker 5 15:26

Yeah, holistic's a great word because in fact, this process is probably equally holistic in some parts of it. There are a lot of practical and logistical considerations around a circus career, not the least of which is working, living, touring, being away from family, the the things that go hand in hand with live performing and a large part of the entertainment business. You don't do it from your own bedroom. You need to be out there on stages and ideally, um, in front of new people all the time. So it's a very. Mobile type of lifestyle. Now, there, of course, there's resident shows as well. Is that in your own city, your own hometown? Probably not. So again, it's a question of relocation. There's so many logistical things that are a great starting point. Sometimes for younger people that it's a little bit less encumbered. They might have less responsibilities, whether that's financial or familial. They might be completely free to take any nature of contract. But I think giving thought to the context of living life to be able to do that contract is really important. Do I want to be living in that city? Do I want to be living on a ship for an extended period? I have one client who discovered regretfully, that they're actually, they get seasick, uh, very, very easily and they could not fulfill a contract. They had no idea before they hadn't been on a ship before. And, uh, unfortunately discovered. That they just can't live that lifestyle. These things happen. Oh heavens. Yeah. There's parts of the world. Live and learn. Yeah, exactly. Live and learn kind of the hard way that one. Uh, there's parts of the world that you may aspire to live in or desire less, uh, as a destination for yourself. There might be people in your life, uh, a partner or children that need to be part of the consideration. So there's the whole logistical pile of goodies to figure out. I put that one first because for some people it's very binary. It's black or white. I can, or I cannot do this because of these things. For others, it's a non-starter and they may not encounter that until much later on. Otherwise, though, and it starts to become more internalized now, less the, uh, external forces influencing you. Who do you want to be doing this for? Who is your work? Best suited to with whom do you wanna share? And that can mean the style of work, that can mean the environment, the venue, the type of company or type of show. This is a question of knowing oneself well enough to say, I really do well with all ages, family friendly audiences because I love exchanging with young people and inspiring them. Perhaps it's the person who says, I excel at bringing out the racy side of myself for adult audiences, and I love how it pushes me for intimate audience interaction. And then there's a million versions of that in between. So understanding where you think your work is best suited and the environment you want to be in is really important. It's simply a question of. What stage can this go on? Am I an indoor performer or an outdoor performer, or can I transfer fluidly between them all? Do I work best in intimate spaces or do I have the type of act that flies high on a winch and I need tremendous amount of space to execute my best version of self? Those are some logistical things, intertwined, but it's also the, the scope and nature of your act that starts to influence as well as your desire as a performer. To be in front of certain types of audiences. I think beyond that, there's different phases of life as well that we never would wanna lock ourselves into. There's the option perhaps to tour at a part, uh, a time in your life when it makes sense, but then you would aspire perhaps to settle down and have something a little bit more consistent or shorter term contracts, or maybe less away from your loved ones. There's a lot of different variables as you navigate the. Career, and that's normal as it relates to your age and your chapters of life, let's say. But I think so much of it is just this, it's like the business of being an artist. I use that expression quite a bit. There is the artistic drive to get your thing, your, your product yourself, uh, through your product out there. But then the reality is what is the context? Who's it for? Where's it happening? How do all these things line up and align more specifically?

Speaker 4 20:08

Most certainly. I thought of two questions that I think, uh, that the audience would definitely love to have more information on, and that is if you do have specific, requirements, whether it is you have family or pets and other things that are gonna shape your decisions career wise, how would you, I mean, obviously doing your. Research on the front end and seeing if that flexibility is even built in there is, I think, you know, the first, uh, line of questioning you need to ask yourself. But once you get into the process, how do you honestly convey that to the potential person that is casting or hiring you so you don't waste their time and you don't get your hopes up for being considered for a position.

Speaker 5 20:55

I

Speaker 4 20:56

think the

Speaker 5 20:56

key word in all of that was honestly. Do so honestly, sometimes we are our own worst enemy because we will hold ourselves back before having all the answers to those kinds of questions. And I don't think that's the best approach. If there's things that you feel are holding you back from even trying, that means looking at so that you can give yourself permission to go for it. However. There is a line at which in the process of casting and in the process of relationship building and getting to know one another, getting to better understand the show conditions and where you fit into this ecosystem, open conversation should be on the table. I really appreciate it when somebody brings me information that is theirs to share, I may or may not know it, but it's theirs to share. I have a child. I can't tour for longer than X amount of time, or I have a pet, can pets travel with me? Whatever the situation may be, don't not try. But then very quickly, if it does look like you're shortlisted, if there's consideration, if you're being pushed, uh, down the field, then you do wanna bring up some of what your needs are. Sometimes those needs are. Actually to do with things that are deeply personal. Whether those are hidden disabilities, whether they're considerations that, you know, again, I couldn't possibly know as a casting director unless he brought it to me and one would hope. And it's often the case that those needs can be met. And I frame it as a need because it's your essential need is a human. It doesn't have to be anything extreme. It can just be a lifestyle choice. You need to know that you're going into a place that you're supported and the things that, that are important to you, uh, are being brought into the conversation. That doesn't mean that there's accommodation a hundred percent across all things and that they're gonna fly you back and forth every day off to go home and see your family. That's just not real life. But I do like this idea that by sharing information and bringing information to the table. Once you're in that track of actually being quite seriously considered, full disclosure, transparency always wins. If the artist is what the company is looking for, typically that company will make a big effort to find solutions.

Speaker 4 23:26

Awesome. I love that. Thank you for answering that question because I think, um, a lot of people will maybe discount a lot of opportunities because they do have some specific needs. So you had talked about going away on long-term contracts and. How would you recommend artists if they are, let's say, out of touch with different opportunities for six months, a year or two at a time? Start the process of getting back into, uh, the, you know, the minds and the ears of casting and other, um, opportunities.

Speaker 5 24:06

I might suggest that it's not a question of restarting, but never stopping. There is a little risk, admittedly of out of sight, out of mind, but it's actually not that big a deal. In my experience, being active working can only be seen as a positive thing. It's a good thing, it's a good problem to have that you are busy working. Um, and it, it sort. It resonates well, so people who might also have an interest in you down the road. You're just constantly gaining experience and theoretically getting better and better at your craft. However, going completely radio silent, um. More. More so from the perspective of the artist, it suggests that you've gone into a bubble and that you're not necessarily paying attention to the industry and what's happening in the industry. It doesn't have to be a job opportunity, but it certainly is a sense of finger on the pulse, what's going on out there, what kind of new shows are coming, what might have closed, what opportunities am I seeing, and so forth. The nature of our business is that there's not a single season and there's not a single time where all contracts are up for renewal or all job opportunities start and stop. It can be a one night gig, a one week gig, a two year contract. It, it's, we have everything in this world. My feeling is. With the possible exception of an intense period. If you've just joined a new company and a new creation and you're putting all of your energy there and you're really investing yourself into that for a period of time, in which case you can maybe cool off on the business front very quickly. There should be some baseline maintenance of all the networks and contacts to let them know what you're up to and to let them know because no contract is forever. To let them know when you're next available and to let them know how much you might've gained or what you're learning and what you've experienced in this place, and how that might benefit them when the time comes that they're casting their next project or their next season. I think it, the goal would be to never let it go completely quiet, just to make sure that people know that you are an active player in the industry.

Speaker 4 26:20

Awesome. In what ways would you say would be very tangible for people to keep their finger on the pulse and to still connect and uh, maybe update materials? What would your maybe top three recommendations for that be?

Speaker 5 26:35

Certainly the socials do a US a lot of favors by keeping information available to consume. I think being. Mindful about how much energy you put there and how crazily quick, it can become a bit of a hole. Keeping your finger on the pulse just by being aware of what is going on out there is very basic. It's sort of the, the low level version, but it's helpful because you'll see a new show announcement or you'll get a sense of. Some renewal season that a big show is casting and starting to look for new talent. And it could be that they're starting now, but it contract doesn't start for six or nine months. Lots of time to be responding to what that need is, that business need on their part, just staying informed. So yes, because of the digital accessibility, I would say just pay attention to what's being put out there. After that, in terms of one's own initiative and sort of strategic approach to being in contact with folks, it's really, I'll speak to my experience. It's really common for me to receive emails from people who are just giving me updates. These are artists who might be in contract, in between contracts coming up to the conclusion of a contract, and they'll send me a quick update, and I really appreciate that. Do I respond every time? No workload suggests that it's just a bit too much, and I love when that email, that information that they're sharing comes with no expectation and no demands on me because it's just not realistic to have demands on other people for whom you are not a priority in that moment. However, had that email not come in and had I not taken note of it or saved it in whatever system I like to save. I wouldn't have that information necessarily, and I like that proactivity. I like that initiative. I really appreciate that somebody is mapping their own career path by being proactive and letting me know where things are at. And I say me and I'm just an independent freelancer with a small company and have a, have different clients for whom I work. Multiply that by all the different companies that are out there and the different opportunities. That actually becomes a bit of work that becomes a regular, consistent time in your week that you devote to making sure that you are going out through your network and sharing information. But if they don't tell me, I may not know, and that's a missed opportunity.

Speaker 4 29:14

Most certainly. I, I love that. And also, uh, that you had mentioned that just because you don't hear something, that doesn't mean that person didn't receive the information. They were interested, it just wasn't the right time, nor did you have the time to give a really thoughtful response.

Speaker 5 29:29

Yeah. And let's go a bit further on that because it's, that's another recurring thing I hear in coaching is how demoralizing it is to be met with silence. And I genuinely understand that I've been there. Um. I, I know how hard that is. It's also just real, it's the demands on individuals who are on the other side of the table in whatever casting or decision making capacity. Uh, sometimes it has to do with volume, timing, uh, access. If somebody's traveling an awful lot, things get buried in the inbox. We also have the big challenge these days of having multiple channels. I can't tell you how often I've thought I really need to reply to that person. Where did that message come in? What of all the plethora of opportunities of different ways to communicate with me, did that person choose in order that I can go find that message and reply to it? That's a whole other time consumer. That aside, because I say that with like the pros and cons of what social media offers us love hate. I think this idea of just being consistent and recognizing that it's not personal. It's just the nature of things that it's your job as the artist to push the information out. It, it's just part of the business. It is what it is. Now what's wonderful is that particularly when you advance into the way I consider it, the process of being, uh, funneled toward being selected. So you're shortlisted. There's maybe a little bit of exchange and you know, you're looking as an artist, like the solution for what it is that that company's seeking. It's nice to know that the circle will be closed, that if you are not selected, that the person in that decision making space will circle back and let you know that. Just to put an end to it, just to sort of close the loop. I make a big effort. Personally. I have colleagues who do the same. Sometimes it's not possible again, due to volume, uh, but I really put my effort there rather than. The cold emails simply because if I'm already engaged with somebody, I really like to finish what I started. The other is more of an information drop and I just bookmark it. I can go ahead and search it in my inbox later on, pull it out when the time is right.

Speaker 4 31:56

Awesome. I think that's really helpful for everyone to understand that casting is human and they might be overwhelmed just as much as that person that's sending that submission and to keep in mind that, you know, you might be in the back of their head, might be the right fit later, but right now it's just not the right opportunity and they are just overwhelmed quite right. It's really different.

Speaker 5 32:21

It is two different categories, let's say. To be very talented and have something wonderful to offer versus being the right fit for the actual need. The actual casting call one is not, uh, completely coherent with the other. Sometimes they're full fledged in conflict. Tremendous talent. Not the right, whatever, whatever it happens to be. Not the right discipline, not, you know, I can name a handful of things that you're just not quite the right fit for any number of reasons. Um, that can be very specific sometimes, and it is completely unrelated to the talent and to the quality of work that you're offering. Easier said than done, but the goal is to not be taking all of these. No answers or negative answers as a full fledged rejection or reflection of your talent. It's a rejection potentially for that particular job, but it is not necessarily a reflection on your actual talent and what you do have to offer. So there's a lot of work in there to be able to reset and recalibrate and reframe something that doesn't go your way. But honestly, if you go back to what we started talking about and you have real clarity about who you are and what you offer and where it belongs, if you are actually being strategic and focused about getting it in front of the right eyes, your risk, a lot less rejection because you are a much stronger fit already. You already are part way down the path of being aligned for the nature of profile that they hire. As compared to thinking, you know, I'm gonna take a wild shot here, put a square peg in a round hole. Mm-hmm. That

Speaker 4 34:10

doesn't usually work that way. Definitely as far as timing and artists that, let's say are out of pocket, they're on a six month year contract, what are your thoughts on submitting while you are on contract and maybe missing the audition, but still submitting a full act? And, and so you can get yourself in front of casting for consideration. What are, are there any kind of, um, guidelines you have around that?

Speaker 5 34:40

My general suggestion is to ask the question very honestly of oneself. Am I wasting everyone's time, including my own? Am I completely not available based on everything that they clearly stated, and this is just not tracking in any way and it not helpful if there's any sense of that. Then that would be the flag for me to really assess whether you wanna put effort into this. With that said, to my earlier point, don't use that as an excuse to not go for it if it's pretty darn close. For example, the dates are so close, even though you conclude your contract on certain date, and there's a short overlap where they might have wanted you a couple weeks earlier for this new opportunity. You just never know if they're prepared potentially to wait for you or if they can find a solution temporarily to have you arrive when you are available. If indeed you are the one. Lots of companies will make an effort to find concession. Sometimes it's not possible. That's also the nature of it, but it's, for me, there's sort of a, a screaming red flag if this is a colossal waste of time and or you get the sense that it might be. It probably is. However, if it's related to something like a, an audition with a specific date and you know, you will not be in the country or not available, well, of course you should apply if you meet the other criteria of what's being asked for. And there's the potential, for example, to do an online audition or to do a more specific demo, which is in you of an audition, to be able to really put your hat in the ring. Take advantage of the ultimate offering, meaning you are available for the dates of the contract and you haven't played the game or wasted anybody's time. It's just you can't actually logistically get to the physical audition, which by the way, are happening less and less today anyway. So there's often companies who do both. They'll allow for digital submissions in parallel with, uh, in-person auditions. Take your shot at it. Just pay attention to that spidey signal, which might be saying, Ugh, I'm really pushing my luck here. There's like, there's nothing about this is gonna track this time, bookmark it, pay attention for the next time. It's a fine line. You know, sometimes it's sort of hard to know, but my feeling is you want to just be very respectful and mindful and do everything you can to think of the process on the other side, the very. Typically complex logistics on the other side. Nobody needs their time wasted. That doesn't shine a great light on you. But if you're a special talent, we sure do want to know about you.

Speaker 4 37:39

I love that. Just it's very important to value their time as much as you do yours and your preparedness and, and materials that you have to submit so that that brings, um, kind of forward, the kind of the artist toolkit conversation of having your bio and your photos and videos, what. Do you recommend artists to, I would say, focus the most on as far as submissions, um, for the future? Right now, as far as

Speaker 5 38:11

the tool itself, the medium of video, of course, is everything. It trumps everything else. It is the evidence, the proof, it is the manifestation. In whatever digital form of what it is, the thing that you do, and more importantly, almost how do you do it Video above all here too, I have, uh, different ways that I personally approach it. I consider all the different styles of video, um, sort of on a, like a linear graph. We have at one end, something that would be a teaser, just a little bit to wet my appetite. They're typically really short. If they have a few highlights, I get a sense of the shape of you and the quality of you in terms of movement because it's a physical practice. But for me, that's never a hiring tool. I would never hire off something that is a, a show reel or um, a teaser of something. It would just wet my appetite for more. So right away this suggests that in any artist's. Inventory. They should have a handful of different kinds of videos, and those video products are just tools. They are not you. They are not meant to be making you look better than you are actually. That's very problematic. They need to be, again, truthful, authentic, very real. They need to show what you've done and hopefully your potential as well. Knowing that what you've done may not actually be the thing that they need, but the potential that you demonstrate in having done that is what they need. So start at the one end. We have the very short sort of teaser clips that includes anything on social. It's just to what your appetite. Once again, though, I, this is a a bit of a caveat. This is my personal process. I suspect there's some people who find someone they adore. On Instagram and are quite happy to pick up the phone and engage in contract negotiations. That can happen. It's not how I do it, but it can happen in this industry, I suspect. I wanna know that I'm getting excited about something. That's the first box checked. It means that you've made a connection, and although it sounds kind of blunt, I regularly say Make me care. I just need to see enough that I actually care to move on to the next steps of doing my homework on you. The artist. We move into different kinds of videos in this repertoire, repertoire, repertoire, which would be, I think, curated to suit the opportunity. If you're a soloist and you have an act in its entirety. I'm looking to hire an act, then you can be sure that I personally need to see that act video in its entirety, and I'd actually like to see it shot as though I'm sitting in the seat of a theater watching you. I don't want an art video. Those are beautiful, but there are different product line. What I want is a caption of a, a filming of the act as though I can see it from the audience. People ask me all the time, does that mean no edits, no cuts? Usually yes, if there's minor cuts or if there's the opportunity to zoom in periodically because it happens to be a big act and it's shot from far away. Sure. I don't mind that as long as it is completely telling the truth and it's not about, oh, I missed a scale that I get one in three times and I had to insert and edit. Right. Trust me, we can tell like we know these things

Speaker 4 41:56

most certainly.

Speaker 5 41:57

So. The idea is that it's just a recording of this thing that you do now for me to actually care about that. I also wanna know that you care about that, that you are performing to the camera, that you are really being mindful of where you placed the camera, that the environment you're shooting in, uh, has decent sound, decent lighting. It can be a training studio, no problem if you haven't presented that act on a stage yet. Sometimes those images are stronger than a theater caption because the theater lighting is dim and you have like noise of the audience, or we can't quite tell who you are on the stage if it's shot from far away. The whole point is to be able to evaluate your talent, you and your potential. So you want your medium to reflect that. If you're an ensemble performer or a group act performer, if you are multi-skill and don't really have an act but have lots of actual different skills, then that's a different kind of video. Sometimes I call that a general demo. Where you will demonstrate that you can do acrobatics on the floor, or that you have the capacity to do certain kinds of images on certain disciplines or work with other people. If you're a flyer or a base, whatever it happens to be. It may not be a singular act solo duo group. It could be a collection of work that you do that lets me evaluate your potential. So here too, it really depends on. Who it's going to, what it's for, and what that casting call stipulated so that you can do a sensible job of curating and make sure that you put the thing in front of them that makes them care.

Speaker 4 43:40

And I love that you had talked about. Making sure that you customize for the submission. And I truly believe being able to show range as an artist is really key for casting to be able to imagine you in that role. So not that you need to have 10 different acts unless you love to create. If you do, then by all means, create for your soul and, and create and record to be able to share. But as far as range. For casting, what is important for you to see? So if an artist was, let's say, embarking on their career, they're thinking of putting together materials, what would you say would be your top recommendations for being able to show range? Especially if they're going away. On a contract, not able to keep recording new materials, but to be able to stay, uh, at the poll, to be able to submit something that is specific enough for casting and catch their eye.

Speaker 5 44:40

Here's another fine line to walk. It's this idea of being very clear with. What your strengths are and where you excel, in which style, in which discipline, et cetera, versus trying to be all things to all people. There's somewhere in the middle that can be kind of comfortable, meaning you are really defined and have quite a lot of clarity around. How you make work when it's within your own control, the acts that you've designed, the choices you've made that look amazing and feel amazing, uh, and share well.'cause ultimately, we're doing this for others to receive. It's not just, I feel good doing this, therefore yay me. It's really about all of that. Plus, how do I connect with my audience? All of that compared to I do a bit of this and a bit of that and I can do anything, and I love to do this and that, and just tell me what to do and I'll do it. The read on that is you don't know who you are yet because you haven't been able to articulate. It's a bit repetitive here, but why I should care. I don't have time to train you into a new discipline. If I see that you have some foundational work here and that you are naturally multi-skilled and you have range, great, I, I do need to see that. But you need to know that about yourself first. So to actually answer the question about range, what I really love to see is something that gives me. The sense of potential here. Again, it's not because that version A or that version B fits my actual need, but I can see that if you can go soft and lyrical and deeply emotive, but you can also go high Optane Electric, engage the audience and get them on their feet, then that gives me a sense that you are inhabiting different qualities and bring bringing to life different qualities. And it just inside of that information, I can think, okay, so when this person fits into our show and we have this temperature that we need or this particular quality, we're gonna tap into some of what I've seen in their other work. If I only see the soft, beautiful, lyrical, and I'm looking for an entirely different quality, and you haven't given me any evidence that there's any of that within your skillset, in your own. Uh, performance capacity. I will probably not try very hard to go looking for it. I, I, it's not my job to find out more about you. It's your job to make it as easy as possible for me to know what I need to know about you, that then we can push you forward into the conversation. That doesn't mean I have to see six different styles and I have to see like radically different everything. I just wanna get a sense of your elasticity and your bandwidth to be able to inhabit different styles or different types of characters. I think there is a natural inclination for a lot of artists to go a certain way. You can't necessarily have the two extremes. You might have. Degrees, uh, and you might be sort of a handful of degrees away from your, your central essence and recognize that I can actually have a much more upbeat, or I can interpret some of my favorite phrases and movement qualities into this more upbeat style of music. Even if by design, my original piece is much more, uh, slow paced or angsty or emotive or whatever it's gonna be. This. This isn't trying to be all the things. It's about knowing how you can stretch yourself and find sides of yourself, facets that you can then present and here too. At the end of the day, I get this word a lot actually, with a couple of clients I've worked with. Sometimes it has to do with something we can't even tangibly measure, and it's just your energy. It's just the way you show up. It's just that. Quality. Sometimes it's a little bit tied into charisma. Sometimes it's, you know, people call it stage presence. Um, it's that mystery aura that some artists have that just makes them glow no matter where you put them. And, you know, I've had clients look at really, really, really talented individuals all up against each other who are shortlisted and just say, there's something about this person's energy that I love. We're going with them. So this is also about, okay, if you know yourself well enough, let's try to harness a sense of what that energy is and showcase it. Because if that's your best card, put it out front. If you're a technician, if you are a, you know, the kind of person who, um, has a skill level that supersedes everything else, and that's the kind of company, you know, you're going after the kind of company that needs that. That's a great relationship. We're gonna prioritize that in their evaluation criteria. Other times it's this magical word. What is even energy vibe? Uh, just like how they show up. It's a very fickle industry, by the way. I think we all know that,

Speaker 4 50:17

most certainly. But I, I think it does highlight that if you have talent, you have the technical aspects that you really have to look to yourself and say what is special? And let that shine and, and lean into that and know that there is a space out there for you and you have to keep on meeting, casting, meeting different directors and let them. See who you are and the possibility that you hold for them, which is the perfect tieback

Speaker 5 50:47

to the toolkit because video is the driver for sure. But when I work with artists on their bio or something that would be reflective perhaps of an artist's statement, and it can be verbal, meaning we've met, I have a chance to present myself, or I'm doing an introduction to camera at the top of my demo tape so that I can have that moment to present myself. Or I'm in the room and I have to present myself to the table of panelists or to whomever it is that's hosting the audition. You need to have that practiced and in your back pocket, like your Oscar winning speech. This idea of being able to succinctly, articulately and vibrantly sell yourself in a paragraph of text is gold. I wanna come away from those exchanges knowing something I didn't know before. So yes, there's factual stuff. You'd be amazed. I've had people forget to say their name or they get so hung up because the brain mouth connection, there's that typical delay and they fill it with a lot of ums and ahs and they don't actually really ever say anything at the end of it. This is a practiced effort that merits attention and time, just like cutting together your video. Be able to say not just who you are, maybe one or two interesting reference points about your background that got you to where you are, important training, this type of stuff, other experiences, performance experiences, very succinctly, just high level one or two. We're gonna do our homework on the side. Don't worry. And then of course, what you do that's helpful. Sometimes people forget to say what they specialize in and you don't know what you're talking to. Are you a flippy? Flippy? Are you a dangler in the air? Like what do you do in circus? It could be anything. And then for me, the cire is how do you do it? And the reason I wanna know that again, is. I want them to make me care. I want them to be able to say something about what it is that they do, not just what they do, but how they do it, so that I can then, as a freelance casting director, especially, package that up and present it to a client. This is what makes this person a little bit different. Here's why I'm putting them in front of you. Now I'm gonna deduce my own. Information, I'm gonna evaluate the material and so forth, but if somebody's already bringing me something that is thought through and legit and not just flowery marketing speak, then already I am understanding that they've paid attention to themselves and they've done some work there. And I'm gonna go into looking at their work with a certain lens. I want, I'm gonna try to bring a comparison, what it is that they said and what I'm actually seeing. So it's important both as the artist and the human to be able to present yourself that typical elevator pitch style, whether it's in writing, whether it's on camera, whether it's live with a really beautiful, succinct here's me moment. For me, that shows a tremendous level of professionalism.

Speaker 4 54:03

I love that, and I think there's a certain amount. If you can really explain yourself as an artist, then you're able to connect with the person you're working with and actually grow them and get them to where they need to be for the show, for the role because you know that they know their selves, you know that they know their limitations and, and where they can grow to and be honest and ask for help if they. Do need that extra push to get to where that person needs them to be spot on. So I love that. Being

Speaker 5 54:36

coachable, being directable, all those things, uh, are amazing human character strengths. And so if you know that that is how you shine or whatever it is that you've identified as your best qualities, plug it in there so that you give the person receiving it, the opportunity to connect with it and respond.

Speaker 4 54:57

I love that. One last question for you, Stacy. What do you want artists to know? Um, more than anything right now, from the casting side,

Speaker 5 55:07

you mentioned it earlier, and this is very real casting, responsible casting professionals are just humans with a certain amount of expertise. One would hope, certainly. And a certain amount of responsibility either to the company for whom they work or to the clients for whom they work. But what we're not is scary. We're not meant to be scary anyway. And again, I'll speak sort of singularly for, from my perspective,'cause I can't speak for every casting professionally in the industry. I like to think that we're a team, that we are approachable, that we are working together on the best possible outcome. Sometimes that outcome is not the one you wanted, but it actually might ultimately turn out to be the best outcome. It meant another opportunity came along that was a better fit, or it meant that you weren't ready yet for the one that was being presented. Whatever it means, put aside the disappointment. That's natural. But I think the real message is we're all human. Be a good human. People who hire, wanna hire good humans, who also happen to be great artists. So how you present, uh, the level of, uh, sort of responsibility, trust, respect, all the things that go into having healthy relationships. Bring all that to the table. Don't bring crazy expectations and sense of entitlement to things that are outside of your control. Be a player. Be that person that other people want to be with, that want to communicate with. So that we in turn can offer you the best version of ourselves and help push you down that career path.

Speaker 4 56:54

I love that. That's, uh, it just kind of ties everything together that, uh, artists are humans. Um, and casting it, just everybody's trying to work together to make a beautiful show and to make the best life possible.

Speaker 5 57:09

It's the end result. Uh, and and I see the end result. But yes, that is the result we aspire to. But let's not forget it's the entire journey on the way that actually gives us our day to day to day. You'd like to think we're gonna get to that end result, that we can all have fireworks, but along the way, all these little things matter.

Speaker 4 57:30

Awesome. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for your time today, Stacy. It's my pleasure. Thanks Jennifer. Take care.

Speaker 57:39

Thank you so much for listening to the Artists Behind the Art. We've got something new coming that I am so excited to share a free three day event where I'll walk you through how to transform your submission materials and start creating your own unique path in your career. We're putting the finishing touches on the landing page now, so keep an eye out on Instagram at. Act development for all the details. And if today's episode resonated with you, share it with another artist who needs to hear it. This podcast is for you. I'd also love to hear what topics you'd like more of. Drop a comment or send me a DM on our Instagram page. And remember, you already have what it takes. The question is, are you ready to prove it to yourself? Until next time, show up big and own the stage.