Performer’s Personal Athletic Best: Aesthetics, Performance, and Longevity for Performers

In this episode of The Artist Behind the Art, Jennifer sits down with Courtney Butler, Head Athletic Trainer for Orlando Ballet and Sports Medicine Supervisor at Orlando Health Jewett Orthopedic Institute, and Katelyn, Registered Dietitian and Performance Nutrition Specialist working with Orlando Ballet performers.

Together they tackle one of the biggest conversations facing performers today: how to balance aesthetics, performance, recovery, and longevity in a healthy and sustainable way. From nutrition and hydration to strength training, recovery, and body image, this episode provides practical advice for artists looking to support their bodies at a higher level. 

In this episode:

✨ Performance vs. aesthetics
 ✨ Finding your personal athletic best
 ✨ How to build the right support team
 ✨ Why most performers are under-fueling
 ✨ Strength training myths for circus artists
 ✨ Protein: how much you really need
 ✨ Easy protein sources for training and travel
 ✨ Hydration vs. electrolytes
 ✨ Sugar, performance, and recovery
 ✨ Active and passive recovery strategies
 ✨ Injury prevention and longevity
 ✨ The importance of sleep and rest days
 ✨ Immediate action steps performers can take today

Whether you're a circus artist, dancer, aerialist, acrobat, or performer looking to support your body for the long haul, this episode is packed with practical takeaways you can start implementing immediately.

Thanks so much for listening to The Artist Behind the Art.
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Transcript

Speaker 0:01

Welcome to The Artist Behind the Art, the podcast that lifts the curtain on what it takes to thrive as a professional performer. I'm your host, Jennifer Pierce, artist coach, creative strategist, and lifelong advocate for performers who are ready to go from unsure to unforgettable. This is where the gatekeeping ends and your journey to thriving in the industry begins. Let's dive in.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 0:29

Welcome back to The Artist Behind the Art, and today's episode is a conversation I've been genuinely excited to have. I'm joined by Courtney Butler, head athletic trainer for Orlando Ballet and sports medicine supervisor at Orlando Health Jewett Orthopedic Institute; along with Caitlin, a registered dietician and performance nutrition specialist who also works with Orlando Ballet performers. Both of these women spend their careers helping athletes and artists support their bodies at a high level, and today we're diving into a conversation around performance, aesthetics, strength recovery, and how performers can support their personal athletic best in a healthy and sustainable way. Kate and Courtney, welcome to the podcast.

Kate Tribble 1:17

Yeah, thank you so much for having us. I'm really excited to talk about this topic. I think it's much needed in this space and, um, I'm glad that, you know, all three of us can have this conversation and, all of our perspectives can come together on this.

Courtney Butler 1:32

Absolutely. I think this is a subject that we're all very passionate about, so I'm excited to dive in a little bit with all of you guys.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 1:38

So good. So I want to bring the elephant immediately into the room because aesthetics, we can't get away from it, it's part of our industry. And many of us are trying to navigate the balance between looking a certain way and also performing at a high level and staying healthy long-term. And I know for me, I fought this battle long and hard until I realized what was possible for me since I'm more of a muscular build. And I had to learn into optimizing for what was possible and best for myself. So I know it took a lot more than my discipline training, but when I was at my peak performance fitness, it was definitely that combination of nutrition, athletic training perspective. So generally speaking, just because everyone is an individual, what does it realistically take to optimize to support the body and the demands of a career like circus arts?

Kate Tribble 2:42

I think you hit the nail on the head. Like, we can't ignore that aesthetics is part of this job. Um, as a performer, you're on stage, you're in costumes, you're being photographed. That's something that's always gonna be part of the job. But performance needs to be the foundation, it needs to come first, and, um, it needs to... Your nutrition needs to support the demands of your sport.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 3:07

Definitely.

Courtney Butler 3:08

Yeah. I think, Jennifer, you also, when you kind of alluded to the fact that you are a more muscular athlete, I think that each athlete needs to look at the fact that everybody's ideal is different. So my ideal is different than yours, is different than Kate's. Some people are 5'3" and muscular, some people are 5'9" and lean, and we need to kind of lean into that, of where our body likes to be, where our body's healthiest. Um, and I think when we focus on just aesthetics, we're kind of ignoring, um, the performance aspect of our sport. We might be where we wanna be aesthetically, but that doesn't mean that we're there strength-wise and able to actually perform the moves, that we want to. And also, I think that our, like, our apparatus focus is important. Our apparatus is gonna kind of lean us towards what our aesthetic is gonna be. So those who are doing silks are different than those who are doing ballet, are different than those who are doing trapeze. And I think that that's, um, something we all need to look at, and set clear expectations, and realistic expectations, and achievable goals for our own body, and not compare to others. And I think that's a really hard thing to do in aesthetic sports, um, because like Kate said, you are in costume, and you're being pho-photographed, and you're on stage. Um, but setting clear, realistic, achievable goals for yourself, um, based on what your skill set is and what your body type is, I think is extremely important.

Kate Tribble 4:28

Kind of piggyback on that, I think just using yourself as your baseline, trying to get away from comparing yourself to others in the industry, on social media, and using yourself as your baseline and where you feel the best and where you look the best, while you can still perform your best.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 4:46

Definitely. And I think having that team behind you that can let you know what is realistic and what is healthy- Right and best for you, I think really is the biggest gift that you can give to yourself as a performer, is, is have someone there in your corner.

Courtney Butler 5:04

Right. Whether that be a nutritionist or an athletic trainer or a personal trainer or a physician, having that person who can help you set those clear expectations and help you realize how to achieve them, I think is super important. Mm.

Kate Tribble 5:20

Yep, and, and you guys are with the athletes while they're training, and you're seeing things that maybe they're not seeing, and seeing them maybe not progressing the way they should be, and that could be a sign we'll talk about later in the, in the podcast of them not getting the proper nutrition. So those are things that, um, maybe they're not able to see for themselves, so having those support systems that can point them out is really important as well.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 5:48

For sure. So what would you recommend to somebody that, let's say, has some budgetary constraints? How often would you say would be good to maybe check in with a dietician? Um, what, what would be those, um, different, like, seasons or places that you would say, "Hey, this is a red flag for me to get the extra support"?

Kate Tribble 6:10

Definitely. So, um, luckily a dietician is oftentimes covered under insurance, so a lot of patients don't pay anything to see a dietician, um, if it's covered for their, uh, for their insurance. I see patients anywhere from once every three months to, um, once a week, just kind of depending on what their needs are, how much support they need, um, kind of where they're at baseline when we, when we first meet. Um, what was the other part of your question?

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 6:41

Just seasonally, when, when, when would be those major red flags-

Kate Tribble 6:45

Oh, red flags. Okay. Yeah. So, um, if you're starting to notice some signs that you're... maybe you're, um, not improving the way you would like to with strength, with your performance, um, if you're starting to see performance declines, if you're getting injured. Um, a lot of the, the athletes that I see, um, through the hospital are after they've had an injury. So making sure that what they're doing, um, nutritionally for recovery is optimal, and then once they get, you know, returned to their sport, that they're supporting their body to prevent future injuries

Courtney Butler 7:21

I think from my perspective, um, a big red flag for me, um, obviously I see... I work with the ballet, so I see my dancers pretty much daily, so weight gain and weight loss is pretty noticeable with them. But the biggest red flag for me is when they start to feel sore all the time. They start to have pain all the time. Um, they start to have shin splints. They start to have ankle pain. Those are usually the biggest signs for me that they're not optimizing their nutrition, um, and that's a lot of times when I'll get them in with Kate. When, to prevent those stress fractures from happening, to prevent those bigger injuries from happening, that's wh- I will refer them to Kate or refer them to a dietician so that they can make sure that they are optimizing their fuel and their nutrition.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 8:02

Definitely. And I, I think just i- if you have not, and you're an artist out there and you're hearing this information, it's something that if you're thinking the long game, this is the investment that you definitely need to save for now, and do your research, and find those people that can be the team that's gonna help you achieve your goals. Um, for both of you, on the, the fitness end and then also the nutrition end- Mm-hmm what would you recommend to be, like, top three if someone's out there going, "Okay, I'm ready to find these two people to be in my corner," how can they find somebody that you would say is a... to make an appointment with?

Courtney Butler 8:42

So from the athletic training physical therapy side, um, there is a great organization, called Performing Arts Medical Association, as well as International Academy of Dance Medicine and Science. And both of those organizations have databases where you can find physicians, PTs, ATs, um, personal trainers who are performing arts focused in your area. So it's a really great resource for aesthetic athletes, for performing artists to look for practitioners who are knowledgeable in this realm, um, 'cause we know that can often be hard to find. Um, so those are the two organizations I would recommend from my perspective to find practitioners who are knowledgeable in aesthetic sports and performing arts.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 9:26

Amazing. And I imagine, would that also have information in there if somebody didn't have insurance if they were, uh, they had cash pay only?

Courtney Butler 9:35

Yep. Yep, so you can see who's self pay, who's insurance. It tells you where they work, um, and then you can look up that person and look at what insurance they take. So those are great resources for that. Um, I know that myself and also, um, a physical therapist who is performing arts, um, oriented that I work with are both listed on there. Um, so those are great options for looking for people local.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 9:58

Amazing. Um, I also just wanna kind of put out there as well, there is so much I know, uh, Kate, you see via telehealth. Yes. So if there's somebody that they pique your interest in their resume and their qualifications, see if that is an option. Because although it is nice to see someone in person, often that person that has that highly specialized knowledge that's gonna really unlock something for you, that may just be a virtual visit, so.

Courtney Butler 10:27

And I think that just like with, you know, mental health care, um, you don't always click with a practitioner. Just 'cause they have the knowledge doesn't mean that that's the practitioner who works best for you. Um, so I think that not getting discouraged and being willing to try out a few practitioners, a few people, to find that person who fits and gels with you is important as well. Um, because you don't wanna just give up after one person. Just because they're not the right person for you doesn't mean the right person for you isn't out there.

Kate Tribble 10:53

Yeah. Yeah, and similarly we have a, um, organization, the American Sports and Performance Dietitians Association. So they have all of their full-time sports dietitians listed online as well. Um, and like you mentioned, Jennifer, I work for a telehealth company. I personally work for Nourish, and, uh, they have, um, dietitians in every state, licensed in every state with their specialties listed. So if you have a specific specialty you're looking for, um, you- you're looking for sports nutrition, you can search for that, and all the practitioners have bios specifying what their, um, specialty areas are. So, um, finding somebody that specialize in aesthetic sports and in aerial arts, um, or whatever sport that you do.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 11:45

Definitely. And I think that is what you guys said, it's important to find the right practitioner for you because- Absolutely it's the difference between finding the information that's right for you, feeling good about yourself, and executing- Mm-hmm the information. Because somebody can say something one way and it really shifts your perspective, and another person can say something and then all of a sudden you just don't feel so great about yourself. So I, I- Right I, I think it's so important. Find those people that you are excited to meet with instead of the people that you dread to have on your team. Um- Yes,

Courtney Butler 12:20

absolutely.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 12:21

Especially as adults. Like, you know, don't be afraid to say, "No thank you," you know, to, to somebody and, and find the person that really is on your team.

Courtney Butler 12:32

Yeah.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 12:34

So if we were talking about just shifting realistic, like, habits through nutrition and strength training, cardio, all of these different things, what are the lifestyle habits that are gonna create the biggest impact over time?

Kate Tribble 12:52

I think for nutrition, um, and honestly for anything in life, just auditing your habits, um, is really important. So, you know, tracking what you're actually eating and, and looking and auditing to see does that actually support my goals? So tracking the timing that you're eating, what you're eating, how you're feeling after eating, your hunger cues, getting kind of your baseline with your habits and seeing how that aligns with your performance goals

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 13:26

Definitely. And I, I think that's something that if you are thinking of seeing a dietician, you want to... How long of a log would you want that performer to keep prior to come, coming to see you to really- Mm-hmm be able to give them a realistic picture of modifications and things that they could make?

Kate Tribble 13:44

Sure, yeah. I think at least two weeks, um, to really see what, you know, there, you could have, um, like Memorial Day weekend. We just had Memorial Day weekend, so having a cookout or some kind of event can throw off what your norm is. So at least two weeks to really get a good picture of what a normal week or two weeks looks like for you, um, to, to get that good data. But, you know, two to, to four weeks I think is a good timeline for tracking.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 14:17

Awesome. And I know, uh, the other day you recommended an app to, um, one of the performers that I work with. What, uh, what, what do you think is a good tool for somebody to be able to do that opposed to just good old-fashioned, you know, pen and paper?

Kate Tribble 14:33

Yeah. I really like Cronometer. Um, so it's, um, just a food tracking app you can use. They have like a photo tracking feature, um, that's really helpful. A lot of people don't like typing things in, and that is a big barrier to consistency with tracking. So being able to take photos, um, of your food and then AI, it has like an AI tool that pulls all the nutrition information from that. So that can be good to just get somebody in the habit of tracking. Um, it breaks down all of your micronutrients in a way that a lot of other apps you have to pay for that feature to really see all of your micronutrients. It gives you suggestions. So say you're not getting enough iron in your diet, it gives you suggestions for foods that are iron-containing to add to your diet to meet your needs. Um, so it also interfaces with, like, your health app and your Apple Watch and your devices, so all that information's in one space.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 15:35

I love that. And then Courtney, for the strength training, cardio, recovery, what, what are those things that are gonna make the biggest impact but over time?

Courtney Butler 15:47

So I think that starting small, especially for someone who has never done it before. So really the initial thing, especially with, um, aesthetic athletes, is shifting the perspective on what strength training is, because a lot of them see strength training and think bulk. They think that strength training automatically means I'm working to get bulky, and that's not necessarily true. We're working on strength training for muscular endurance and for cardiovascular endurance, not necessarily for bulk. Now, if you wanna bulk, we can, and that's in conjunction with nutrition. Um, but really what we're doing is we're just building our muscular endurance so you can perform longer, so you can hold your poses longer, so you can perform harder skills. And so I think just starting small. If you're somebody who has never strength trained before, going in and getting comfortable with the equipment, learning how to use the treadmill, learning how to use the different machines in the gym. And it's not always about lifting heavy, it's just about learning to lift appropriately first. So I think just starting, starting very small, getting comfortable in the gym, getting comfortable with the equipment. Um, and then once you're comfortable, then it's getting a personal trainer or working with an athletic trainer or a physical therapist to highlight your specific goals and what you are wanting to achieve so that we can create a plan for you.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 17:03

I love that. So what would you think are some things that performers underestimate, um, in their daily habits on how they affect how they feel on stage?

Courtney Butler 17:17

So I think one thing, um, and I'll let Kate dig into this too, but I think the, a lot of the athletes that I see really underestimate how much they need to be eating and how much they need to be hydrating. 99% of the time my athletes are undereating, not overeating. Um, and so I- Exactly what I was gonna say I'll let Kate, yep, so I'll let Kate dig into that and kind of go into it a little further. But from my perspective- Yeah that's the biggest thing I, I see, is they're underestimating how much it takes. I mean, they are doing sports that require a lot out of their body, and they're not adequately fueling for that. So I'll let Kate dig into that a little bit.

Kate Tribble 17:53

Yeah. Absolutely. That was exactly what I was gonna say. Um, I think the biggest, the biggest misconception is that they're, they don't really realize how much they actually need to support, not only to support their activity, but improve their, um, muscle and their body composition and, um, actually excel in their sport. So, um, I sometimes when I'm calculating needs, I get really surprised- Mm-hmm with, like, how many carbohydrates they need, how many calories they need. Sometimes it is a really large number that you're just not used to seeing. Um, so, and they don't really realize how much they're undereating. A lot of times it's really hard. That's one of the things that I focus on with my athletes in our sessions is, how do we possibly eat this much food? Because it can be a lot of food, and more than what you're really, your hunger cues are kind of ready for. Um, so sometimes it, it takes a while to work up to that, 'cause you can't just go from, you know, maybe they're starting at 1,500 calories and they need 2,500 calories. It's a big jump that's just not gonna happen overnight. Um, so I, yeah, I agree. I think that's the biggest thing that, um, surprises athletes.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 19:11

Awesome. Now, as far as we had talked about the athletes keeping a log for nutrition, um, I imagine them bringing a log of their activity would also be really, really helpful. How would you suggest that they, um, kind of qualify that information that they're bringing to you, you know, as far as, um, stretching and warmup versus, um, you know, a more of a cardio training session? How would you like to see that broken down so then that way there's this really big realistic picture of what is needed opposed to you guys feeling like you're, you know- Mm-hmm shooting darts in the dark?

Kate Tribble 19:53

Yeah, I think, um, the biggest things for me is the type of training they're doing, cardio or strength training, the intensity of the activity- Mm-hmm um, 'cause that's gonna change the fuel system they're using, whether it's, um, total calories and body fat versus s- all carbohydrates, and then the duration of the activity that they're doing. So- Those are the three big things that I look for.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 20:16

Well, how would you qualify intensity? Because- Mm-hmm for a circus act, that is going to be primarily five minutes of all in, followed by a, usually a longer recovery period, and then five minutes all in. Um, you know, unless it's, let's say we're a part of a production, then that is going to really have some, a little bit more of a rollercoaster kind of approach. Mm-hmm. So, how, how does that, uh... how do you qualify the intensity, uh, so the artist can really give that really specific picture?

Kate Tribble 20:50

Sure. Yeah. Courtney, do you actually wanna take this one?

Courtney Butler 20:54

Yeah. So I think that that's actually pretty common amongst all sports, right? Even a football player or a soccer player, they're not going for that full hour and a half. They do have those waves of intens- of intensity. Um, so just understanding from their perspective what do those waves of intensity look like. So, is it five minutes on, 10 minutes off? Is it, like with my dancers, are they on stage doing a pas for five minutes and then standing in the corner? You know, what does that, what does that look like? Um, and kind of just quantifying total amount at that high intensity, total amount at that lower intensity, total amount of rest during that timeframe. So for my dancers, for their rehearsal, they might be in rehearsal for eight hours, but how much of that are they actually dancing? How much is standing around? How much is core? Um, so just trying to get a general idea. No, we don't need exact numbers, but a general idea of on a day-to-day basis, what does that breakdown look like? So, when are you all in? Is it 30 minutes out of the five hours, and then two hours are slower, and then two are kind of hanging out? Like, what does that look like? So, just a general idea of what that looks like. But I think that that, that wave, that up and down is very common amongst most sports, unless you are an athlete that does sprinting, and then you're all go for a minute. Um, so I think just quantifying that the best they can, um, is super important.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 22:13

Awesome. So, what would you say for you guys are some true non-negotiables, both nutritionally and physically, that performers should consistently prioritize?

Kate Tribble 22:26

I think pre- and post-workout nutrition, as well as if they're doing longer duration or, um, activities, intraworkout nutrition. So I think obviously, you know, these are athletes, and some of them are doing this as a career. This is their full-time job. Um, so really making sure their nutrition around their training is as optimal as possible so they're performing at their best and preventing injury, um, and recovering optimally

Courtney Butler 22:57

Yeah, I was gonna say a non-negotiable for me is, is recovering. So getting appropriate amount of sleep and getting an appropriate amount of rest. With aesthetic athletes, a lot of times we see, um, that a lot of them don't have a true off-season, and so they're going all the time. So prioritizing those rest periods, prioritizing your day off, and actually taking your day off to let your body recover, making sure you're getting enough sleep at night, 'cause if those things aren't happening, injury is going to occur, 'cause your body just doesn't have time to recover and reset. Um, I think those are some really important things that I try to stress with my athletes. They're dancing five, six days a week. On their day off, they need to be off, and they need to be resting. Um, which is hard in aesthetic sports, 'cause a lot of times you're not making the money where you can, where you can take time off. But prioritizing that time off when you can, um, and prioritizing sleep, I think is really big.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 23:50

I love that, 'cause I think those are conversations, those are just not brought up often. We, you know, we have our... We talk about our protein, and we talk- Yeah about other things, but not about that pre and post, so I love that you both brought that forward.

Kate Tribble 24:03

Yeah.

Courtney Butler 24:03

Yeah, I think you can- Go ahead you can do all those things. You could eat appropriately, but if you're not letting your body rest, and you're not letting your body have that break, you can be doing all the strength training and eating appropriately that you want, but that's not gonna help if you're not letting your body recover.

Kate Tribble 24:19

Yeah. This is a big thing that we actually talk about in our injury prevention talks, um, for the summer intensives at the Orlando Ballet, is rest and recovery, and that that's also the time that all of your nutrition goes to work. So if you're not getting enough sleep, you're not gonna be using, utilizing that nutrition. So your nutrition can be perfect, but you're not sleeping enough, you're not gonna be performing optimally, recovering optimally.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 24:46

Definitely. I think that's the frustrating part. You're putting in that work, but you're not seeing the gains- Absolutely and you're at that plateau, and you're wondering why you're spinning your wheels, so- Right I, I think those are awesome things. So let's talk about sugar, because often when we hear it, we just hear just cut it all out. Um, but we, we do that without really understanding what that means practically. Um, you know, the truth is, is it's hidden in everyday foods. Um, so I'd love to talk about how excess sugar can affect things like your energy, inflammation, your recovery, and performance, and how we can start approaching nutrition from a place of awareness and performance support instead of that fear and guilt and restriction.

Kate Tribble 25:35

Sure, yeah. So I actually love this question. Um, so I wanna start by saying that sugar is not bad, and I wanna kinda go back to when we were talking about the amount of calories and sometimes carbohydrates that these athletes need. It is just not practical to get that from your complex carbohydrates. So there's two different types of carbohydrates, and we need both of them. So we need simple sugars. Those are gonna be best before, during, and after our training. They're easy to digest, they're easy on our stomach, they're not gonna cause any gastrointestinal upset, um, while we're training, and they can be used as energy right away. So it's important to have those types of carbohydrates as well as your more complex carbs that are, um, can be stored as energy in your body to be used later, and help with providing a lot of fiber in the diet for digestion. Um, and those carbohydrates are more satiating and keep you fuller for longer, and give you more sustained energy. So it's important to know the difference between the two. Um, obviously it's the foods that have those added sugars a lot of times are not healthy for us, like your processed foods, your cookies, and cakes, and candies, and things like that, and we want to limit those. Um, however, again, it really is challenging to meet our needs as an athlete without incorporating some of those things sometimes. So it's just being more mindful about that, keeping that stuff to, um, less than 20% of our total caloric intake, and prioritizing more fruits and dairy products and, um, healthier options for our simple sugars pre- and post-workout.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 27:26

Yeah, I love that. That's really important. 'Cause I think when we do prioritize the things that are gonna fuel our body, we have less room, and also our body, it just doesn't crave those other things when we're giving it what it wants.

Kate Tribble 27:39

Definitely. Yeah, so cravings. I notice that when my patients are having cravings, a lotta times it's actually because they're going too long without eating. Your blood sugar drops, and that's kind of a survival mechanism to crave sugar. So if we just keep those consistent carbohydrates and consistent meals every three to five hours, especially athletes who are burning so many calories, then that helps to prevent those cravings, so we have a better- we have better self-control around mealtimes and around those foods that have added sugars

Courtney Butler 28:15

I think so too. Like, Kate and I are really big on telling, like, our athletes, especially our dancers, like, there are no bad foods and good foods. There are foods that are good for you and foods that are better for you, but the food doesn't have a morality, right? Like, chocolate isn't bad, it's just not the best thing for you. Mm-hmm. And so I think Kate, like, demonstrates this with our athletes too. I think one of my favorite little anecdotes about Kate, I don't know if you remember this, but she- we came to exit physicals, and she had, like, just started with us maybe four minutes before, and they had brought a cake in to exit physicals for ballet. And some of the dancers were like, "Oh, I'm not gonna eat that. I can't eat that." And Kate was the first one to cut a slice and eat a piece, and just show them, like, you can have a slice of cake. Like, it's okay- Yeah to treat yourself. You're not gonna set yourself back because you had a cookie or you had a piece of cake. And I think that's a big mindset that aesthetic athletes have is one cookie or one piece of cake or one piece of chocolate is gonna override everything they've done, and it won't, and there's not a morality to food, and you deserve to treat yourself. Um, but there's a time and a place for it, and there's a way to make sure you're still appropriately fueling. So I think that's really big is kinda shifting that mindset towards those things, um, and making sure that they know that it's not bad. You can have it, but let's have it in moderation, and let's have it at the appropriate time.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 29:31

Definitely. Well, and I think the more we learn about food and how it impacts us and then how it really makes us feel, then from there- Mm-hmm we can more easily make decisions that we go, "Oh, I have a show tomorrow. I want to eat this." You know? So it's not like you're depriving yourself of something.

Courtney Butler 29:49

Right.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 29:49

You know that it's going to help you show up best. And 'cause I know for me, there's certain things I eat, and then I just feel like lead. And there's other things- Yeah that I feel like it's rocket fuel, and I'm, like, ready to go.

Kate Tribble 30:03

Yeah,

Courtney Butler 30:03

and those things are different for everybody.

Kate Tribble 30:05

Yeah. I think Courtney brought up a great point about, like, the way we... like, our mindset around food and shifting the way we talk about food. And, you know, when we don't assign morality to food, and think of things as bad, and I can't have that, but thinking of it more as I don't want that because that's not supporting my performance goals, or that's not supporting, um, you know, the, the performance that I have tomorrow. Or, yeah, I guess I can have that. I've been working really hard. I need the carbohydrates to refuel. I- my favorite... I actually thought you were gonna tell, I thought you were gonna bring up how I eat Nerds clusters, uh- I thought that too before and after my runs. We- that's like my favorite pre- or post-workout fuel. Um, but yeah.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 30:53

Yeah. Yeah, secret confession, my favorite thing to have sometimes before a performance was a Coca-Cola. It just- Yeah that short... I didn't necessarily have the whole thing- Yeah just because of the fizzy aspect of it. Yeah. But as far as something that gave a quick sugar that I just wholeheartedly enjoyed having some sips of.

Kate Tribble 31:12

Yeah.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 31:13

Yeah. That, that was-

Courtney Butler 31:13

The carbs, a little bit of caffeine, yeah.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 31:17

So yeah, definitely. So on the athletic- We all

Courtney Butler 31:20

have our vices.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 31:21

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We, we all, we all have them.

Courtney Butler 31:25

Yeah.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 31:26

From the athletic training side, um, many circus artists, we spend the majority of our time focused on skill-specific training and reps. Yeah. What types of strength training and condition- conditioning, um, work would you recommend performers add into their routines if they're just presently, you know, just discipline focused, to better support strength gains, muscle development, and recovery?

Courtney Butler 31:55

Yeah, so I think that, um, we would need to pare down and look at what exactly is their discipline, right? Because that's gonna change the type of exercises we're gonna do. We're all gonna benefit from squats and bicep curls and things like that, but there are some very sport-specific exercises or movement-specific exercises that we can incorporate depending on what that person's discipline is. So it's a very personal question. It's gonna be different for each athlete, and also what their goals are. So is there a certain skill they're trying to get that they haven't been able to get? Is there a certain amount of flexibility they're trying to get? It's very, it's gonna be very person dependent, if that makes sense. Um, but I think that it's important for them to know that building your strength is going to decrease the amount of injury. So we see a direct correlation between strength, muscular endurance, cardiovascular endurance increasing, and injury rates decreasing. So if you're somebody who is prone to injury, it's probably because you don't have the correct muscular endurance, strength, and cardiovascular endurance to maintain your performance.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 33:02

Awesome. That's great advice. So on the nutrition side, protein. Mm-hmm. And I, I feel this is something many performers aren't really fully supporting in relation to their physical demands that we place on our bodies. From a nutrition perspective, how much protein does a performer realistically need, and how should we be spreading that protein throughout the day?

Kate Tribble 33:28

Yeah. Yeah, great question. So, um, to get into some numbers, the target for protein is anywhere from 1.4 to two grams per kilogram of body weight. So a pound is 2.2 kilograms. Um, so- That kind of gives you a good range. It just kind of depends on the athlete's goals, whether or not, you know, if they're restricting calories, they're gonna want a higher portion of their calories to be protein to preserve lean body mass, lean tissue. If they're recovering from an injury, they're gonna want to have more protein for, um, for recovery as well. So it kind of depends on their goal, but anywhere from that 1.4 to 2 grams per kilogram is a good range for athletes. And to optimize the, um, absorption and utilization of protein, we wanna spread it pretty evenly throughout the day. So, um, keeping your protein to anywhere from, like, 25 to 35, maybe 40 grams of protein, um, at your main meals, and then somewhere between 5 to 15 grams per snack is adequate for most people. Um, and I like to tell people, and if you're doing three meals and two snacks per day, take your total protein goal, divide it by four. The- that number is how many grams of protein you should have at each meal, and then divide that by two, and that's how many you should have at each snack.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 35:02

Amazing. And what are some easy, realistic protein sources performers can keep on hand while training, traveling, or working long rehearsal days? Because often when we're on the road, it's really hard to find these items. So what would you recommend that they could throw in their bag that they could buy ahead of their travel schedule?

Kate Tribble 35:25

Yeah. I think protein shakes are a great option, especially, um, as something that they can kind of travel with and sip on throughout the day. Um, protein powders as well, something they can put in their... You know, obviously you can't put liquids in your carry-on, but you could put, like, a protein powder if they're flying somewhere and they need something, um, easily accessible. I think trail mixes and, um, beef jerky sticks are a great option as well, those Chomp sticks. Um, and, um, if they're able to bring, like, a cooler or something like that, having things like yogurts and cheeses and, um, and things like that. Hard-boiled eggs are always good options as well

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 36:11

Amazing. So hydration is another area where I think many of us are under-supporting ourselves. Can we talk about the difference between water and electrolytes, and how performers can know when they need one versus the other?

Kate Tribble 36:27

Sure, yeah. So your fluids are just your, your water volume, and then electrolytes are minerals that are in our water or in our beverages like sodium, potassium, magnesium, and chloride that help our body function optimally. Um, so one way that you can tell that you're over-hydrated, you have too much water volume, not enough electrolytes, is the color of your urine. So a lot of people always ask when I give nutrition talks what color we want our urine to be, and a lot of people say clear, but that's actually a sign of over-hydration. We want our urine to be a little bit like a pale yellow. So, um, we wanna make sure that, especially if you're sweating a lot or your sport is outside, um, or you're maybe performing outside, that we're replacing our electrolytes, especially if you're doing more than 60 to 90 minutes of activity

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 37:26

Amazing So on the athletic training side, when we think about longevity, recovery, and injury prevention as performers, what types of conditioning programs do you feel that circus artists should be incorporating outside of the regular strength training, like the foam rolling and other-

Courtney Butler 37:46

Yeah

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 37:47

kind of modalities that are gonna just support that?

Courtney Butler 37:51

Yeah. So I think foam rolling is extremely important, right? My thing is aesthetic performers, dancers, they are flexible, but just because you are flexible and h- can do your splits doesn't mean you're not tight, right? They are just tight in other ways. So foam rolling is really good for fascia and for the length of the muscle. Um, you can do- we do a lot of cupping at the ballet, um, for recovery. So when you find trigger points, some cupping. Massage is really important. Um, so whether you have a massage gun, whether you pla- pay for a massage therapist. Um, and then the non-body things, like we talked about, eating and sleeping appropriately. So if I can do all the stretching, all the foam rolling, all the cupping and massage that I want, but if I'm not sleeping to recover, it's not gonna help, right? Um, I think, too, having- using what you have access to. So you don't need to go buy all the fanciest equipment. So I don't need to go buy the $2,000 recovery boots. I don't need to buy the $2,000 massage gun. We can get things done with a foam roller from Five Below. We can get things done with a lacrosse ball, with a tennis ball. So utilizing what you have, um, and not feeling you have, like you have to go out and spend thousands of dollars on the highest tech recovery equipment. Um, 'cause yeah, it's high tech, but you can do the same thing with a cheaper product most of the time

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 39:12

Awesome. And what does recovery look like for you? Often athletes, we are thinking that if we are sitting down and we're not working towards our goals or towards, you know, that ultimate audition or whatever, that we feel like-

Courtney Butler 39:27

Yeah

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 39:27

we are wasting our time. But I know for me, if I put it on my calendar, then I validate it. Yeah. So what does that look like for a recovery, uh, let's say d- like, is it a day? Is it two days? What would you say is going to be best for an athlete that is looking to really be in peak performance?

Courtney Butler 39:50

Yeah, so I think there's both active and passive recovery, and I think both are just as important, right? We have our active recovery, which is the foam rolling and the stretching, and the maybe going for a walk with your dog or your partner. Maybe going downtown and going to a café. But then you have your passive recovery, which is really resting, really sitting at home and doing something maybe that helps you mentally, right? For me, it's sitting at home and reading a book. That is the way that I recover, right? And I think the amount of time for recovery really is dependent on what season you're in. If I have performances five days in a row, then I probably need to take two days to recover, and maybe have an active recovery day and have a passive recovery day. Um, I think that if you have a slower week, then you maybe don't need a full two days to recover. Maybe one is enough. But it really just depends on what your load looks like that week, what your load looks like that season. Um, and then we always wanna make sure that we have at least one two-week break each year, which I know sounds crazy. Most aesthetic athletes don't get that or don't want to do that, 'cause it feels like you're not reaching your goals. But it's only gonna help your body reset and help your mind reset. Um, so we wanna make sure we get at least one two-week break every year. Um, two if we can, but at least one to actually just fully reset, and that is a break. That is we are not doing anything that is sport-related. We can do our sport, but we can do other things. We can go swimming. We can play volleyball with our friends. We can throw a ball. We can kick the soccer ball around. But actually doing something that is n- has nothing to do with your sport for those two weeks for a good physical and mental reset

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 41:27

I love that. And on the nutrition side, how can artists better support things like inflammation and joint health?

Kate Tribble 41:36

Sure, yeah. So, um, I think a big part of that is definitely, you know, what Courtney was talking about with the sleep, the recovery, the active and passive, um, recovery things. Omega-3s, um, are a supplement that... Or including omega-3s in the diet, whether it's through a supplement or through things like fatty fish and nuts and seeds, um, can help with some inflammation in the body. Um, if they're experiencing a lot of soreness, magnesium can help with muscle soreness. Um, so that can be a part of their recovery routine. Um, just making sure they're fueling properly, getting enough carbohydrates and protein to support the activity that they're doing, and to support muscle tissue repair after their activities will also help with that as well. Um, yeah.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 42:28

Awesome. So last question. What would be one or two immediate action steps circus artists and performers can implement right now that would create the biggest impact in supporting their body's recovery and overall performance?

Courtney Butler 42:46

Um, I'd say from, from my perspective, taking a step back and just getting a very clear picture on just one or two goals. Maybe one short-term goal and one long-term goal that you have for yourself and for your career, and then seeking out that provider or the right support to help you achieve that. So if your goal is, your short-term goal is to achieve this one skill, but your long-term goal is to be able to perform for 10 minutes and you can only reach seven before you're out, just as an example, finding those practitioners so the, the appropriate athletic trainer, personal trainer, dietician, maybe a sports psychologist. Maybe your short-term goal is to get out of your head more. But finding just one or two achievable, realistic goals, um, and then seeking out the appropriate, uh, people to help you reach those goals.

Kate Tribble 43:38

Yeah. I think piggybacking off of what Courtney said, um, I think definitely ironing out what your actual goals are, 'cause it's hard to come up with a plan if you don't really have a clear, um, you know, vision of where you're trying to go. So figuring out exactly what your goals are, and then kind of going back to what I was talking about earlier with auditing your habits, keeping a food diary. You know, paying attention to the intake of, uh, or the nutrient intake, the timing, the hydration, for at least two weeks and figuring out where, what your baseline is, and then going back to those goals and making sure that what you're doing is supporting those goals. Um, so I think a good place to, if we wanted to kind of make that a little bit smaller is, again, going back to the pre- and post-workout nutrition, making sure that those are optimized, because that's gonna make the biggest impact on performance

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 44:36

Awesome. Thank you so much to both of you for taking all of these big conversations that can sometimes feel very overwhelming and just unapproachable, and really giving some actionable advice. I, I think there were so many things that you both shared that everyone is really gonna be able to take, apply, and really, um, optimize their ability to perform and live.

Courtney Butler 45:04

Absolutely. Thank you for having us.

Kate Tribble 45:05

Yeah. Thank you so much for having us.

Jennifer Drabik Pierce 45:07

Awesome. Thanks, guys.

Kate Tribble 45:09

Bye.

Speaker 2 45:11

Hey, guys. I wanted to invite you to join the waitlist for my next act creation mentorship, Own The Stage. If you're looking for someone who can hold your vision, give you the tools to move through creative roadblocks, and keep you accountable to what casting is actually looking for and what the industry is asking for, this is for you. If you're listening right now and you feel like you have the talent, but when it comes to act creation, something just isn't fully clicking, I'd love to connect with you because most of the time it's not a complete overhaul, it's a few missing tools, a few shifts in how you're approaching the process, and that's the difference between staying stuck and second-guessing and becoming the artist who is ready to go for the opportunities you actually want. If you feel like that is you, email me at jennifer@aretementorship.com so we can connect and see if this mentorship is the right fit for you. You can also DM me on Instagram at The Artist Behind the Art. I would truly love to connect with you and help you move from where you are to where you are meant to be