Unveiling Christianity

"What is Catholic Sacramental Marriage?"

• Fr. David and Friends • Season 1 • Episode 31

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0:00 | 41:50

TOB for Beginners - https://share.google/6Z8duBDs7QzjVJrYi

Fill These Hearts: God, Sex, and the Universal Longing - https://a.co/d/01B5qxJo

The Good News About Sex and Marriage - https://a.co/d/0j9xHFSh

CCC 1601 - "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."

Catechism in a Year - https://share.google/1FdOxyibx8YixnBH3


Music Copyright: https://artlist.io/

SPEAKER_01

Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Unveiling Christianity. I'm Father David, and I'm Mark Turnus. Mark, welcome back. Well, thank you. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00

It was uh it was a it was a a week, two weeks long hiatus. I I missed I missed you last week, so uh, but it it is good to be back. We're glad to have you back. For sure. Yeah. Well we'll have to see, we'll have to see if any of the listeners even noticed I was gone.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, oh of course. Yeah, absolutely. What what what did you do in your in your time away?

SPEAKER_00

I uh I had a pretty busy week, but uh maybe we can start this week with uh your week and how it went.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Oh yeah. We'll turn the table a little. Oh, changing it up, you know. Change it up.

SPEAKER_00

That's what you said. Last time I was here, you said we need to change it up occasionally.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, yeah. So yeah, this week was good. It was um we had a fun little event last night. Uh we had with uh walking with purpose. It's uh women's got a Bible study here.

SPEAKER_00

We had a little paint and sip. Ah, my wife missed that. She she does a lot with walking with purpose, but she missed it. How'd that go? Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we painted uh Elizabeth, so um Mrs. Mrs. Uh Elizabeth Johansson is the art teacher here at our school. Okay. She's obviously great with art and different things, and uh, she led us through. So they had like a projector up on the on the stage, and then she would be painting with like a video camera. Oh and then everyone would paint along with her. Wow. So last time we did, it was really beautiful. We did a um image of um the Immaculate Heart of the Seven Sorrows of Mary.

SPEAKER_02

That'd be cool.

SPEAKER_01

Which is really cool. We did uh springtime this time, so we did uh a uh a flower vase pot kind of deal. So did you bring your art? Uh I didn't. I'm sorry, I forgot.

SPEAKER_00

That's all right. Well, you're gonna have to show it to me at some point. Yeah, but it was funny. I just have you have you painted? I can't draw a straight line. I have no artistic ability and I'm not I'm not embarrassed about it. What did you drink? What did you sip? Uh some wine.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. And I guess there was some some wine that had uh St. Ambrose on it. So I don't know if they have a vintage wine down there in Brunswick or something, but um that's kind of a fun idea. Yeah. I mean they might have had it first off.

SPEAKER_00

It would be fun to try, but I have zero skill. I mean, really, yeah, it's like comical.

SPEAKER_01

It's kind of but I think you'd be surprised though, because I mean I haven't paint I I don't paint, but there's something about you know watching someone and having them describe what you should do that it kind of gives you a it kind of gives you a form of what you want to you want to step into. And um yeah, I mean it they they all turned out pretty well. I mean, considering I don't I don't know that the the room of women, you know, I don't know that everyone freak paints real frequently. I think they all turned out really, really beautiful in their own way.

SPEAKER_00

It's it's interesting that you say that because I have seen a lot of art that that is produced in such a session, and most of it is all right. It's it normally pretty good. I mean, my my daughter and son-in-law have done it, and uh they're not artists, but don't don't downplay yourself, you know. Yeah, well no, no, believe me. I'll show you something.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe we'll have a guy's uh one too, or we have like a bruise and drawing or something. There you go, you know, instead of wine and sip. So but uh always really grateful for them to put it on. It's really really relaxing, you know. That was last night? Yeah, okay, yeah, really relaxing just to be able to um yeah, just sit and do something creative. Uh I think we had about 30 or 40. Wow, yeah, 30 or 40 women. That's a good crowd. That is fun. That's we'll let people know for next time because we have a lot more capacity in the over in the school cafeteria.

SPEAKER_00

So what was the highlight of your week? Um, well, last night I went to dinner with my wife. It was my 43rd anniversary. Wow. So, how providential is that since we might be talking about marriage today?

SPEAKER_01

There you go, right? That's that's that's real awesome. We went to congratulations.

SPEAKER_00

We went to Akron, down to Akron to a place called Saffron Patch. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's an Indian restaurant. I have heard of it. It is really, really the best. Wow. I mean, it's one of the best. I love Indian food, and I uh their their naan is is phenomenal. Naan is bread, right? Yeah, it's like a bread, but they you can get it ten different prepared ten different ways. It's it was it was very, very good. But I I had goat and it was Wow. Yeah, I I love goat. Goat goat is goat is a a really good, it's a little bit of a healthier red meat. Yeah, from what I've had.

SPEAKER_01

What I've heard Father Kavice actually, he was talking about uh Tanzania, obviously where he or where he's from and grew up. Uh they they eat a lot of goat in Tanzania. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's actually it's actually really helpful. Uh so it's really nice for him to be in Cleveland and everything because uh we have a lot of a lot of meat shops and things around.

SPEAKER_00

You can you can get goat and people kind of kind of fry it. It I think it I like it better than lamb. I remember the Passover you could pick from the sheep or the goats, but I like it better than lamb. I think it's uh got a little bit of a sweeter taste and it's a lot less fat. So it looks good. Have you ever been to Luigi's in Akron? I have not. What is that? It's Italian. Italian food. Well, yeah, I'm I I'm not presumptuous.

SPEAKER_01

Luigi's, uh it's downtown Akron, uh, kind of close to Akron U, or at least a lot of college students who go there.

SPEAKER_00

It's uh I think I've heard of it. It's close to the customer.

SPEAKER_01

Pizza Place, famous for their pizza and salads and stuff. They're open, you know, till two or three o'clock in the morning or something.

SPEAKER_00

But my my wife and I had a lovely dinner, sipped a little bit of wine, and it was uh it was very nice. Awesome. Well, congratulations. 43, 43 years. Where did you guys get married again? Uh at uh her her parish is St. Thomas More in Brooklyn, Ohio. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. So we got we got married there uh quite a quite a bit ago, but I can remember the day. I can remember the weather, I can remember a lot about the day. Isn't it kind of beautiful day? It is 43 years ago. I remember how the day played out. I remember waking up and it was really, really cloudy, and the sun came out. I mean, it was really yeah, I remember a lot.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I can't remember what happened last week.

SPEAKER_00

I can't remember what I had for breakfast, but I can remember that day. So I guess maybe that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It's uh it's it's it's in you. It's in your your heart, your mind, your soul, your memory, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yep. And I just thank God every day that my wife put up with me for 43 years. What was the color of the the table? Did you have like blue?

SPEAKER_01

It was blue. Okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Our tu we had dark blue tuxes. The braids bridesmaids had these like uh pale blue dresses. It was be it was beautiful. There you go. Yeah, I remember, I remember quite a bit about that day.

SPEAKER_01

So awesome. Well, cool. So we uh so we did have our podcast with Father uh Patrick uh Schultz yes last week and everything. What did you think? Yeah, I listened to it. You listened to it because you had to edit it.

SPEAKER_00

So I I I had to edit it, but I did listen to it again. It was a little longer, right? Yeah, it was it was a little longer and it was it was it had a lot there. There was a lot of meat to it. You talked about a lot of uh well, you talked about one very, very important thing, and I I found it very fascinating.

SPEAKER_01

Did you know much about theology of the body before or kind of had heard of it maybe? Or just out of curiosity.

SPEAKER_00

Kind of interesting. Um my my take of it, and I guess I guess what I could say is this is like the fundamental place that episode took me, because I'm gonna be honest and say I knew about theology of the body, but when I got married, I had never heard of it. And and and this was in '83 and it was out, but I had never heard of it. It really wasn't uh taught to me. But um, I can kind of tell you where where I uh where I ended up after listening to it, if you if you want to hear that. Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I just want to get your kind of because we obviously we talked about a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00

It was very deep, but one of the things is that that really kind of struck me about it is you talk about theology of the body. And when you talk about the body, you talk about humanity. And when you talk about humanity, sexuality springs up very, very quickly. Uh so theology of the body to me, you you you talk, you can talk about sex, you can talk about religion, but you really never mix the two at a party or the party really won't go well. Right. That's kind of uh kind of where we find ourselves. But that's not right. I mean, theology of the body kind of shows you that they should be and could be and can easily be talked, not only talked about together, but it but the out theology of the body gives you the framework to do it. So I guess what I'm saying when you talk about sex, you should always talk about sex in the context of God. And when you talk about God, you can always talk about God in the in the context of humanity and sexuality. So they really there really shouldn't be this uneasiness about it. And I think theology of the body to me kind of pulls that all together.

SPEAKER_01

It's a way of approaching the whole question. It's a way of approaching the whole question, ultimately, not just what is sexuality about, but what is what is humanity about? What does it mean to be human? And I think, you know, ultimately that that is a conversation you know we can and should have, right? Right. What what does it mean to be a human being, you know? And and um, yeah, and the reality is so going back to the beginning, we believe in objective truth as Catholics, right? We don't believe it's just kind of any any story goes or anyone's perspective uh, you know, is is er everyone's perspective isn't the truth, that there ultimately is one. And that's really helpful because it helps us to um ask quite it means our our questions matter and because they're they're all they're all oriented towards something, right? Uh yeah. So we should be able to talk about what does it mean to be human, right? And and how do we and how do we do that well in the context of our desires for happiness and fulfillment and uh and and and ultimately heaven, yeah, because we're not just I mean, we don't we're not just we're not just animals, we're we're creatures, we're we're part of God's creation.

SPEAKER_00

You know, we are all part of that same creation. And and what I loved about it, you you two both shared uh the impact that it had on you. And like I said, it I wasn't as aware of it when I chose my vocation to be married, or when God chose my my vocation that I would be married, but I wasn't really aware of it, but I I I lived out a lot of its significant concepts because of my parents and because of my teaching. So I didn't I got a lot of it right, I got a significant amount of it right, even though I wasn't like consciously aware of it.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah. And I think that's just it's just it's it's to say that times are different, the culture is different from very you know 50, 60, 70 years ago for sure. I mean, you can think about the past hundred years, I mean, just in general, right? The past hundred years, you know, uh 1926, just how much of the world has changed. Oh my god. No, I think we live in a time where we don't sometimes we don't appreciate that, you know, and uh just how much the world has changed in this short amount of time, and you know, due to a lot of different reasons, but you know, and with the introduction of technology, technology has changed everything, and and and with the technology that's introduced, there is this question of how does this technology affect humanity? Yeah and and our question of what does it mean to be human with the introduction of some new technology, right? Correct. Uh and part of that with the the question of of humanity and sexuality is in the introduction of uh uh of the contraceptive pill, right? So that had an effect, you know, upon humanity and our understanding of our relationships with each other and and love and and all of that. So to say, uh yeah, there was a there was a providence, you know, in in Paul VI's uh giving of Humanivite, and then John Paul's picking up with a torch to say, okay, okay, this might be the the end of the book uh answer, you know, objectively, but okay, we need a we need a framework to explain some of the why and the background as to why this is the case and this is the truth. And so we've been given the theology body. Uh it's going to be um, you know, they say a a church council like Vatican II, um, like a large church council, it takes a hundred years for it to really kind of fully kind of play out. Yeah. To say like it takes us, uh it takes time to digest a big meal, right? Right. So I think we are in this time where we're beginning to have um digested, you know, kind of what has been g shared, uh, and then it's going to be implemented into the church and into the culture uh effectively in the next few decades and broken down.

SPEAKER_00

So that that that is good. That is good. And I think in in keeping with your your food analogy, I think it's kind of a good thing. If if you want, and I encourage people to to read about theology of the body, but maybe not pick up theology of the body and try to read it because it's a little dense. Oh, yeah. And it's a little but but do the appetizer and read about it. So many there's so much good things that people have said about it. Read about it and learn about it.

SPEAKER_01

And I'll I'll share in the show notes this week, I'll share a bunch of um books Christopher West has written. Christopher West is probably the the leading proponent of the Peter. But he's written books at different levels for different audiences. That can be uh they can be accessible. So I'll share some of those some of those.

SPEAKER_00

I mean the book the book itself would be like way over my head, and that's that's fine. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_01

And that's okay.

SPEAKER_00

But I'll I'll come to grips with it over the next whatever. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's a journey. It was good. It was a good episode. I I enjoyed it. I hope the listeners were. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

I um I uh I enjoyed it well, and I think um as well.

SPEAKER_00

You both played well together. Two priests, you did and I I say that as like four-year-olds, you played well together. Oh, sure. Uh it was good. It w it was kind of enjoyable to to hear the two of you because you have a lot that you share, but you're there's a lot of it that you were very different about. So I I liked it. It's good.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Uh well, so with that, we just kind of wanted to pack uh unpack that episode a little bit, but then you know, talk about our our next uh our next topic, which be would be, you know, in Trent's book, Trent Horns' book, uh Why We're Catholic, uh, the next chapter is why we defend marriage. So it's kind of in this this last section where we're talking about what is it? We have uh morality and destiny, right? Yes. So uh he has this chapter why we defend marriage, which is an interesting way of him putting uh kind of the question, right? Uh there's a sense of a defense. The reality is um marriage has been redefined kind of in this in this new time.

SPEAKER_00

It probably needs to be defended at this point in time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and so this is this is the case. So I want to, in order to kind of understand that, you know, he shares a number of things in the chapter, but I thought about just uh having this episode on just like defining you know what is Catholic sacramental marriage. So what's great? What do we what do we what do we mean when we say these words, right? Catholic sacramental marriage. And so uh yeah, I want to unpack just a little bit of what I I walk with uh walk through with marriage prep, my marriage prep couples. We have uh uh about seven couples here. Uh the parish are gonna be married this year, so keep them in your in your prayers.

SPEAKER_00

That's exciting, that's good.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. But my first two episodes, you know, priests will do marriage prep differently, you know. Um everyone kind of has their style, uh, the the way they want to introduce different topics and uh involve other people in this and that. That is very true. And it's changed over the years. Sure, sure. Um, yeah, I meet my with my couples about six, seven times um or so. And I've spent the first two times talking about, you know, what is Catholic sacramental marriage, you know. So the first time I'll talk about, you know, the anthropology, so in the sense of the human reality, what is what is what is marriage? And then also the then the second time I talk about you know what is marriage as not just a human reality, but a spiritual reality, so as vocation and uh and and sacrament. Uh and so you know when we when you when we even ask this question, what is ca Catholic sacramental marriage? We're again we're going back to the beginning of this podcast in the beginning of the book where you know we ask the question of what is truth and and and all these things. And as Catholics, we do believe that there is a a truth, there's something objective, that there are that there are natures of things, right? So there's a nature that makes this computer mouse a computer mouse, right? Right. Uh okay, there's there's there's kind of what it's made out of plastic, uh, metal, uh, you know, all these different things, right? All right. But there's something that makes this mouse this mouse, uh, and this cable that's plugged into the device that I have plugged into my computer. Uh they're kind of made out of similar elements, right? But there's something substantially different about them, right? So we would say this this mouse has a nature, uh, an unseen kind of thing that makes it what it is, and there's some there's an unseen thing that makes this cable what it is. Right? So we believe in natures. And I just mentioned that because, you know, the tr the church wants to the church doesn't create truth, but the church helps to unveil or discover truth.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

You know, the church always looks to reality, it looks to the world and how things are, or like kind of like a uh a scavenger hunt or discovery, right? Right. We want to derive truth from the world as it is, right? Uh and so uh you know, there is a thing called marriage and has a nature to it. Um there are aspects of uh of what it is, right? And so we'll we'll talk about that. So so and in doing this, I just want to look at uh the catechism definition on uh what marriage is. So this is catechism uh 1601. And truly, uh the catechism is uh a beautiful work. You know, it it essentially answers every question, you know, what it means to Catholic, when it means to be Catholic and why. It unpacks, you know, the the creed that we recite every every week. It it's a it unpacks everything and explains it.

SPEAKER_00

I would not be afraid of it. It has a great uh glossary or uh words at the end that you can look up and it'll point you exactly where you need to be. It is it is a very good resource.

SPEAKER_01

It's it is great, and then also, too, there are other things to help unpack it as well. So Father Mike Schmitz has a podcast. Uh so he did Bible in a year, which was amazingly popular, uh went around the world. Uh he also did a follow-up podcast, Catechism in a Year. So we can point people to that.

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, my wife did both of them and found them very, very useful.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we can point to that one as well. So anyway, catechism definition, uh catechism paragraph 1601. So what is what is marriage? It says the matrimonial covenant by which a man and woman establish between themselves the partnership of the whole of life is by its nature ordered towards the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring. Okay, so first, uh that's we'll stop there. There's a second part of the definition, but we'll we'll we'll stop here. So, first, it defines marriage as it's a matrimonial covenant, right? So there's a difference between uh a covenant uh and a contract, right? Big difference. What would you say is the difference between a covenant and a contract?

SPEAKER_00

Unconditionality. Is that a word? I think it's a word. Okay, yes. Unconditionality. A covenant is unconditional. A contract is totally conditional. I will clean up your yard and you will pay me five hundred dollars. Sure. That's a contract. But a covenant is I will love my wife. Unconditional. Period.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Okay, so there's stipulations to one, there's not stipulations to to the other one, right? That's the big one, yeah. Okay. Uh, yeah, so a contract, right? It's it's what? It's a it's an agreement upon exchange of goods and services. Yeah, you do this for me, and I'll do this for me. We could say, right? So we we pay our our cell phone bills, we have a contract, right? Um and there's consequences if we uh break the the the terms of that contract early, right? So uh yeah, so a contract between uh between people about goods and services, right? A covenant uh would be different. It's in something that is uh without stapation without uh uh stipulations is irrevocable, but but it's between it's between persons. It's not just about goods and services, right? Okay, okay so to say you know there's covenants in the whole uh the whole story of the scriptures is a story of God's covenants with his people, right? That is correct. From from Adam and Eve to to the end, right? And ultimately Jesus is the is the new covenant, you know, he ushers in this new time. And so there's the sense of God offers himself to his people, uh, and they offer themselves back, right? And this in this relationship of love.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

But then eventually we become unfaithful. You know, we fall away, we uh get caught in our sin, we follow uh false idols and all these things. And so we break this this covenantal relationship. It's about a relationship, not just like an exchange of goods and services, right? Uh and so a covenant is something, yeah, it's something deep, it's something, it's something spiritual, it's something that is uh necessarily involves God, right? It's not just of earth, it it is of heaven. It has it has eternal consequences to it, right? Right. Uh and then we have to enter into that, right? Okay, so it's a it's a covenant, not just a contract, uh, by which a man and woman establish between themselves the partnership of the whole of life. It is by its nature, so nature is like what it is in of itself, that something that can't change, by its nature is ordered towards the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring. Okay, so uh so this is where there uh in the seminary we were we were taught about you know uh marriage and as we're getting ready for marriage prep and human sexuality, all these things. We're talked about uh marriage as having four pillars. That it's a relationship uh that has four essential things to it, right? That it's free, it's total, it's faithful, and it's fruitful. So if you don't have one of these aspects, then it's a relationship, but it's not a a marriage relationship, right? Um you need all four. You need all four. So first that it that that it's free. You know, you're freely choosing to do this. You're not being forced or pressured or you have free will. Right. You know, because'Cause love isn't isn't forced, right? Right. Uh love isn't pressured. That we would freely choose to to to love someone. And and that it's total. It's not just given for some amount of time, you know, again, maybe under certain certain uh conditions or whichever, but or for a certain amount of love.

SPEAKER_00

It's complete, it's total.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm giving all of myself to you. All of you forever. Forever, right? I get it. Which is uh is kind of a scary thought in a sense, right?

SPEAKER_00

But I think that's the one that people people struggle with when they're they're doing it for it's a big commitment. Until death to you part.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah, and I think that it's it's a struggle for all of us to make can I even make that kind of commitment, right? Right. But especially with with younger people, one of the uh uh today, you know, um my my my generations and younger, there is a real fear of commitment in different ways.

SPEAKER_00

And we don't do things totally anymore. We're we're half in, we're lukewarm a lot, but this is different than that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So this is a big step, right? Uh, and then it's faithful that we intend fidelity, right? That we intend to, I'm going to be with this person uh and uh and not anyone else. Yeah, and then and then it's fruitful, it's open to the gift uh of life, right? So uh so these four four realities uh have to be a part of what a a marriage would be, you know, because truth truthfully, this this human reality, this human relationship is has existed since the beginning of time. Every culture has held up uh what marriage is. There's always just because there hasn't there's been uh other extracurricular activities, you know, within a culture, they've the world has always understood marriage to be a certain thing, right? All right, all right. So uh yes, and then and to say you know that's it's necessarily between a man and woman uh means that men and women are created in a particular way, right? From the very beginning, he created them male and female. And our our bodies are different. Correct. But the difference isn't just simply in the body, you know. So if human nature uh you know, it's a thing, right? So are we there's a there's a nature that is male, there's a nature that is female. Uh they're both complementary. So the church would talk about uh complementarity of male and female. This happens within the body, obvious in obvious ways, but it also plays out in in lots of other ways too. Uh and it's it's a it's a gift to have received life in this way and to be able to give life uh in this in this way. Uh so four pillars of marriage, right? Uh so these things are have to necessarily be there. And so when we go when we walk with couples through marriage prep, we're evaluating these questions too. You know, uh, is there are these uh or is each individual free to make this choice?

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Uh are they intending this to be a total gift of self? Are they are they intending to be faithful? You know, has there been certain infidelities that have played out in their relationship? Uh and then are they intending fruitfulness or or life? You know, so the conversation the the couple has with the church really is a sense of discernment. You know, are we discerning this question? We're not just gonna jump into this because this is a lifelong, eternal kind of consequence, right? Um, at least in as far as this life goes, right? Right. But it's uh it's a big it's a big question.

SPEAKER_00

I'm learning a lot here because I I really didn't I really never really focused on those four pillars, but I I lived them out and and it wasn't a coincidence that I lived it out. I made a conscious choice, but I really hadn't uh like defined them in my own mind. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that's where, you know, why wasn't so theology of the body and all these definitions, why weren't they there before? Well, in a sense, the church helps to define things when things have been called into question, or there's different thoughts about maybe something that has always been universally understood, right? Right. We needed a new articulation of what, yeah, answering this question, what does it mean to be human? We needed a new uh answer to that question because that because of the way culture called it into question or changed. Because of the things that were happening in the world, the church wanted to be able to provide uh a deeper answer, right? So it's not that the truth changed, it's uh it's just that the answer has developed to give a more uh a fuller answer, right? But all of these, uh all of these four pillars of marriage are addressed in the questions of consent. So in the marriage uh uh in the marriage rite, right? So there's these there's questions before the vows. And the questions the questions are are this you have you come here to enter into marriage without coercion, freely and wholeheartedly. And there's your free pillar. Okay. Yep. Are you prepared, as long as you follow the path of marriage, to love and honor each other for as long as you both shall live?

SPEAKER_00

There's the totality.

SPEAKER_01

There there's uh each other, not anyone else, right? And then are you prepared to accept children lovingly from God and bring them up bring them up according to the law of Christ and his church? Fruitful. See, I've been paying attention. Are we open to the gift of life? So all these four questions are all these four realities are in these questions, right? And we have to be able to say, I do. Or I have, I am, I am, I am, I reference wait, uh yeah. I have, I am, I am, right? To these these questions. Uh so it's all kind of fleshed out right there. And you know, so that's the kind of the human reality. You know, from there, the next part of the definition is this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament. And so then we talk about marriage in the church as uh a vocation and a sacrament, that it's a vocation comes from the Latin word vocare, which means uh to be heard, right? You can think of the word vocal, right? It's something that's received. That we believe, you know, each person has a vocation. Uh and the vocations would be uh marriage, priesthood, uh religious life, uh, and a consecrated or dedicated single life, right? And so you're you're called into a particular way of life. And I think this is where the difference between you know contract and and and covenant also comes in. That I think the church is approaching marriage as not just a lifestyle, but a way of life.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Uh it's not just simply uh a particular way to live among ways to live. You know, because ultimately our lives are not about us, that we've been created and we've been redeemed so to help build up the world in love, uh, and and all these things. So our lives are meant to be given away ultimately to become saints, right? Right. So it's a question of which which avenue am I called to be a saint? Right. Is it a And you can take any of the four? Right. Is it a priest, is it religious, uh, is it married, is it uh dedicated single person, you know? And so it's a way of life and not a lifestyle. Lifestyles can be about us, but a way of life is about uh others and about God. And so in a sense to say there's a there's uh an adventure in vocation and there's meaning and and purpose in that. And I think you know, that's how the church is approaching marriage, is this beautiful adventure that's helping us to get to heaven.

SPEAKER_00

I I like the the expression about marriage that we're we're brought together. We're brought, I mean, the couple doesn't decide that we're gonna get married, they are brought together by God's providence for God's purpose. And that's kind of exactly what you've said. I mean, there's a reason, there's something you need to play out for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah, and that we live it out. Yeah, we discern, we ask questions, because there's two different discernments. You know, that I'm I'm discerned that I'm called to marriage itself, but then I'm also called to this particular person.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's very, very true.

SPEAKER_01

Right. It's not just anyone in general, and you happen to be here, right? So, like, no, I I've been called to love you, I've been called to lay down my life uh for uh for you, right? And so, and even just to say, okay, so we're talking about the ideal here, right? The church always holds up the ideal because because it's important, it's like uh how God has has created things. Obviously, we understand that um you know we live in a broken world, we live in messy lives and families and marriages and relationships, right? Yes, the good news is that yes, God upholds, you know, the ideal for us and is and in fact has a plan for humanity. Uh, and even though we fall, even though we fail, God will still continue to be committed to us and and walk with us, right? Yes. And uh, and so in a sense, it's uh you know, God sharing his life with us in a very similar way as marriage. You were talking about a quote uh before before the podcast today.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, the quote from Isaiah? Yeah, that's that's pretty yeah, I kind of raise marriage to this highest level. There's a quote in um that Isaiah that says, as a young man marries a virgin, your builder shall marry you. As a bridegroom rejoices in his bride, so shall your God rejoice in you. And that is an amazing deep thought.

SPEAKER_01

Deep the deep thought there, right? It's how did you how did you come across that by curiosity?

SPEAKER_00

I really don't remember. I was I was just uh I read a lot of the of Bibles. I I told you a while ago I was into Ezekiel, that's going kind of wildly. Uh but uh but I love Ezekiel, but Isaiah is the my go-to prophet, and I read him a lot, and I just I've always just been intrigued by that line.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, I mean there's a there's a deep truth here that yeah, the reality of married love actually points to the reality of the love God has for us, insofar as it's what free, total, faithful, and fruitful. And where do we see the love of God manifest most perfectly and completely for humanity? Where would you say?

SPEAKER_00

I would say in in marriage, God the the Bible starts with a marriage, it ends with a marriage, and smack dab in the middle, Jesus comes of age, comes of age.

SPEAKER_01

And he gives his life for us freely totally, faithfully, and fruitfully through the church, upon the upon the cross. Oh, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. So on the cross, Jesus gives his life for us, he he weds himself to humanity in a real way. And it's because he gives of this sacrificial love that eternal life is born forth for us, right? Right. So so this is where God entered the human uh story uh brought us salvation, obviously in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, right?

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, uh it's uh marriage, marriage you need to fall in love with Jesus. And like I said, you can't get to salvation without going through the cross, and you fall in love with Jesus on the cross, because that's where he married humanity.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right. And but it didn't end on the cross, right? It goes to the resurrection. Absolutely, right. So, but he did God did this in and through uh a body, right? In and through a a real person through incarnation, and Jesus became one of us, which is a kind of a shocking kind of mind-blowing to think about, right? Yeah, so uh yeah, so God's love uh is is is is a real love, right? And so we're called to know this in our lives, and we can know that in and through the vocation of of a holy matrimony, and certainly we can know that in other ways. Obviously, we can we can have a Father Patrick, maybe and I will have a maybe a further um podcast on celibacy and how that okay, how does the theology of the body and this understanding of humanity and sexuality, what does that mean in relation to being a celibate person, right? So maybe uh podcast ahead. So but you know, the reality is um, yeah, we know the the world is is broken, right? Uh and we uh don't live up to the ideal at every time. So it's just important to say, you know, uh providence and mercy, uh, as we talked about on a previous COCAS, are, you know, just so essential, right? That God always looks upon us with with mercy and wants to wants to help us, but also wants to raise us, you know, to uh a higher standard and wants to call us back. You know, there's the time in the scriptures where they were asking Jesus about divorce and and Moses allowed for it a particular time. Uh well, long story short, you know, it was allowed for a particular time because it was an act of mercy towards the people of that time. But but Jesus responds, you know, but in the beginning it was not so. Jesus He points back to the beginning of the story, uh, and Adam and Eve, and you know, that they were created, that was the first marriage, right? The marriage of humanity. And yes. And he he still holds up this ideal for us because it's what we're it's we're created for, it's what's what we're born for. And uh, and ultimately, yeah, it's about our our getting to heaven and living with him in and through the the difficulties and uh everything of life. So, so yes, uh divorce is a reality and the the church wants to help uh couples. That's why we want to to do the best we can with marriage prep, you know, to be able to prepare couples as best as they can be prepared, you know, for this, for this, um, for this irrevocable covenant, for this, this, this promise, right? Maybe to each other and and God. Uh, but though the church also does a great deal to walk with couples who are who are struggling. Uh, you know, RetroVie is a is a is a uh group in our diocese uh that does a lot to work with couples who are who are struggling. You know, I would recommend uh marriage counseling to couples who are struggling. It can be really difficult if if one spouse wants to do that and the other is not open, that can be a very painful place to be in. Uh praying for you know your your spouse, right, is an important step in that. Uh, but everyone, we all need help, right, in life. And so to be able to reach out for help, you know, there are there are people and resources and apostolates in the church that want to help uh marriages uh truly succeed because the success of marriage is so important for uh just the world and the family, and obviously then then then then the society. And then and then the only other thing to mention here is that you know we will have a future podcast on uh NFP, so natural family planning, all right. Which is uh a topic I talk about uh when I talk with the couples about uh humanity and sexuality.

SPEAKER_00

There could be that's that's come so far because it's so so different than the the old the rhythm method.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes. It's not for sure. So natural family planning is a whole science behind it. Right. Uh and long story short, we could have a well, we could have a whole podcast or number of podcasts on NFP and everything. We'll uh we'll I'll look to bring in an expert on NFP uh to be able to talk about it, what it is, what it is not, and and just how beneficial and beautiful it can be for uh um uh for a marriage and and everything. So yeah, but that'll be for uh for a future time. So but you know, in this in this in this podcast, we just want to talk about you know what is marriage and why it's true, good, and beautiful, and um, and to give the world uh hope, yeah, that that marriage is is possible and is beautiful and uh it is ultimately a way of uh of living for for heaven, you know. Um here in this world too. It's the way to sainthood. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So a way to sainthood. There are many ways.

SPEAKER_01

Indeed. So okay. Well, good stuff. All right, so let's uh jump to our uh our gospel here. All right, so we have uh the sixth sixth Sunday of our of Easter already. So let's pray in the name of the Father, and in the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Good and gracious God, heavenly Father, we just give you thanks and praise for this day. We ask God to be with us and open our minds and our hearts as we hear your gospel. The Lord be with you. And with your spirit. Reading from the Holy Gospel, according to John. Glory to you, O Lord. Jesus said to his disciples, If you love me, you will keep my commandments, and I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot give, because it neither sees nor knows him, but you know him, because he remains in you, and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. On that day you will realize that I am in the Father, and you are in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him. The Gospel of the Lord. Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00

Anything on the gospel here, Mark? Well, I know you're gonna stick me to one topic. Chapter 14 to 17 of John's Gospel is phenomenal. It's the final discourse, and he reveals so much to us in those uh in those chapters in that final discourse. But the one line here that just shouts to me is I will not leave you orphans. To me, that just has such a spousal talking about marriage, such a spousal, such a human tone, familial tone to it. I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. I I will pray for that better understanding of that love of not being left an orphan.

SPEAKER_01

God wants to be with us. Yes, right, and that's certainly want. That's Jesus is just revealing just how how deeply and how closely God wants to be with us. Right. And yeah, I think about that, you know, we're celebrating first communion with the kids this weekend. Yeah, and uh even just that revealing, you know, God wants to be so close to us that he makes himself bread and wine, right? Right. And uh you know, to say this is where the covenant between God and humanity plays out. The c the covenant is renewed, you know, each time we receive holy communion, right? Communion, right? Come coming into union with God. And um Yeah, I think just reflecting on uh just the gift of the Eucharist, I think is what I'm gonna focus on as we get ready for our kids to receive first communion this weekend. So very nice.

SPEAKER_00

All right, with that any uh prayer intentions? Yes, on subject, I want to pray in gratitude and for the intentions of my wife, Mary, and for the intentions of all those out there who have lost a spouse.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm gonna pray for just all the marriage prep couples I'm working with uh here at uh Holy Family and just all those throughout the diocese. You know, I don't know how many couples are getting married in our diocese. I know there's been uh kind of record numbers of people coming to the churches here. So uh yeah, for all the couples who are preparing for marriage, uh that as they grow in love, as they jump through, you know, any any hurdles or trials they may experience in this time, that they may grow in a holy and a fruitful love. All right, let's pray. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, amen. Good and gracious God, we give you thanks and praise for this day of our lives, uh, just of this journey uh you've you have us on, be it we uh are married or priests or religious or uh consecrated, dedicated single people. We ask you to just be with us in this time and still with instill within us a renewed awareness uh of your love, calling us uh more deeply into love and into sacrificial gift uh for those uh around us. We ask you to bless us and be with us today uh and keep us safe until next time we meet. We ask us all in your name. Amen. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Amen. Alright, everyone, have a blessed day, and we'll catch you next week.