Ep. 16 - What Is Heaven Really Like? | It’s Not What You’ve Been Told

We test our old images of heaven against Scripture and find a bigger hope: God dwelling with us in a renewed creation. From Eden to the New Jerusalem, we trace presence, purpose, resurrection, and reward while naming open questions we’ll keep exploring.

• heaven defined by God’s presence, not clouds
• 1 Corinthians 2:9 as a humble anchor for mystery
• common myths challenged by Scripture
• three heavens explained from Paul’s language
• service, reward, and setting hearts above
• embodied resurrection and transformed bodies
• new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21–22
• Eden restored as a garden city with purpose
• open questions on timing, nations, and kings
• community invite for feedback and study

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Standing strong in a world that wants us weak. Welcome to the Brotherhood Podcast.

Craig 0:22

All right, guys, welcome back to yet another episode of the Brotherhood Podcast. My name is Craig. And my name is Colton. There he is. Today we're going to talk about uh kind of what heaven is like, kind of what our perception of heaven uh was before we started studying, and some maybe misconceptions about heaven. And then, of course, we'll dive into what the Bible says, um, and then we'll try to wrap it all up in a tight little bow with a kind of a closing statement of what we found. Um, but today I'm gonna start off with a joke, like I have been. This time the joke's not on you guys, so that's good. Uh the joke today is today we are talking about heaven, and no, it is not eternal harp practice on a cloud, because if that were true, some of us would be in trouble before we even got there. I know I haven't I've never played a harp. Anyway, I heard some other ones, funny ones too, but that's the one I stuck with. But uh we'll yeah, I'll get Colton to read our anchor verse today, and then we'll just get into it.

Personal Images Of Heaven Challenged

Colton 1:57

Yeah, absolutely. So our anchor verse, guys, this time is going to be First Corinthians two verse nine. So while I read this, um just I guess think about uh or picture in your head what you think heaven is like, um, I guess how you envision it. So 1 Corinthians 2 verse 9. However, as it is written, what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived, the things God has prepared for those who love him. And so this is our anchor verse today, because I think a lot of times, you know, we go to the Bible for answers with heaven, and I think kind of from some of the studying I've done, I feel like heaven is something that's not meant to fully be understood. I don't think we were ever meant to see heaven or fully understand it until we get there. And so I think this verse is um yeah, just a really good anchor verse in in maybe understanding that we won't get the whole picture of what heaven is like, uh, but the Bible does talk about a few points here and there, and so we're going to try and I guess pick through some of those and uh yeah, see see what we've come up with. But um first of all, we were gonna talk, I think Craig and I both a little bit about what we what we envision heaven as or how we see it. And for some reason, I think like a lot of people, um I've always had this picture in my head of you know these big, beautiful golden gates, and then everything surrounded by clouds, and um I just have a picture of like this almost like heaven being a big um worship service, and for some reason, for the longest time, that's what I thought it was, is just sitting in the pews up in the clouds singing praises to God, and so I guess maybe part of me was a I'll be honest, part of me was a little disappointed when I thought about that, but that is not the picture we get um when you read what heaven is about in the Bible. Um, so Craig, I don't know if that's kind of along the lines of what you thought heaven was like or what how I guess how you envisioned it, but that has been my picture of heaven for a long time until I actually started looking into this.

Who Is Heaven For?

Craig 4:30

Right. Um, I'd say pretty similar is what my vision of heaven is like. But before I get into my what my perception was before studying, um I want to ask. So something that stuck out to me with our anchor verse is that last part that says um God is prepared for those who love him. Um so that's interesting. Um, it's not just for everyone, it is exclusive. Um and something I thought about as well that came to me was a question. Because you know, you hear these stories of people that have um that say they've died and they've gone to heaven, they've seen heaven and they've come back. So it it in the first part of that, it says, What no eye has seen, no ear has heard, nor the heart can imagine. Um so it's not sure that we're gonna have an answer here, but it's just a question that I had is like, okay, what about these people that say say they've seen it when this verse says no eye has seen. Maybe it's because it's not their physical eyes, like they've they've died, they've gone to heaven. I don't know. It's one of those one of those things where I'm like, now I have more questions than I have answers. Uh not it doesn't matter.

Can People “See” Heaven?

Colton 6:02

I like that you're something to think about. It is, yeah. I I like that you brought that up because I I uh a couple of verses I found or had researched a bit, I think, and maybe I'm taking it out of context, but once we get there, um I I feel like I made a few connections I've never made before that might uh I can't say for sure, but it might give you some clarity on that too, because I think I'm found part of an answer possibly to your question. Maybe. Okay, I don't think I'm that smart, so I could be way out to lunch, but you can tell me when we get there what you think. Sure, yeah, we can talk about it when we get there.

Three Heavens Explained

Craig 6:47

Um, but yeah, okay. So my my perception of heaven before we started studying was pretty similar to yours. I just wrote down in in my kind of study notes. Um before starting to dig deeper, uh, I saw it as a place where we never cease to worship. Um and earthly family ties don't necessarily matter. I think I got that part from like if you think about your wedding vows, right? Till death do you part. And I think I don't know if I wrote anything down for uh for this, but um, I don't I don't believe there's marriage in heaven. Um but that's something quickly study that okay, yeah. I don't think there is. I have the visions of streets of gold, and then right this floating city in the clouds, right? This kind of that similar thing you said, like heaven's gates, like golden gates, and like surrounded by clouds. Um and then I wrote down mansions as well, but I know the Bible talks about mansions, but I I don't know what they're for or how like you know how you get one or what they look like, or who knows. But yeah, so that's kind of that's kind of what I wrote down. Um and then I wrote down some common assumptions as well. So um if you think about cartoons, you know, when someone dies, you have like this floating spirit, right? Like cartoon character dies, the physical body is dead, but then the the ghostly kind of spirit is kind of walking around. So it's like there's almost like uh spiritual beings kind of thing. Um not not physically tangible, uh clouds, harps, endless singing, we've talked about that, and then an escape from earth, which we will talk about, that that's not necessarily true. Um and I wrote down that most images that we have about heaven are more cultural, I think, than than biblical, just because um you see on movies and and cartoons and stuff like that, and that's kind of where we draw it from. And I don't know, this isn't something I've really thought to dig into before into the scriptures, like okay, what does what does the Bible actually say about heaven? Like until now, like until we started talking about okay, what are some things we can study and bring forward to you guys? Um, I hadn't really thought about it that much. So um I think if heaven feels vague to you guys, or um like it's not clear uh as to what it really is, um, it might be for that same reason is that we haven't really looked at the scripture and um tried to find the truth for ourselves. Like, what does it actually say about it? And like the verse said, um, you know, we can't we can't even imagine what it is like, but scripture does give us some clues as to what it might be like, so that's kind of what I have for that.

Paradise, Presence, And Reward

Is Serving For Heavenly Reward Prideful?

Colton 10:42

Yeah, I I think it's um like I say, in studying the Bible, you know, I I guess I always thought that the Bible would give us a very clear and direct picture of heaven, but from what I've found over the last couple weeks is that I I don't think we're supposed to fully understand it, you know. I think um I think maybe that's partially where we just need to trust that God, you know, as he says in the Bible, is creating a place for us. And I thought it was really interesting that it's not a hundred percent um clarified in the Bible, you know. Yeah, like this is where we're gonna spend eternity, and and you'd think that it would describe it a hundred percent, but I don't I don't think it doesn't, and and like I said at the beginning, I don't think we're meant to fully understand it until we get there, you know, just to trust that God is creating a perfect place for us or for those who love Him. Right. Uh a verse I had here to go with some of this was 1 Kings 8 27. So I guess kind of the way I think we laid it out is we were gonna go through a bit of the Bible, see what it says about heaven, and then um eventually end up in Revelation and see what Revelations says about uh about heaven and the new earth. Um, but for now I had a couple verses that I wanted to talk about a little bit. Um, the first one being first Kings 8, verse 27. And it says, But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built? I find this interesting because through my studies I had found that people refer to like the first, second, and third heaven is what I had found in my Bible, or the highest heaven. Um, and it's really interesting. Uh, my footnotes on this one says, God is infinite, no mere building, no matter how wonderful, can contain him. God rules from heaven in a realm far superior to anything that man can imagine. Unlike the pagan gods who were thought to actually live in the temples built for them, he is not limited by time or space. Yet God has committed himself to fellowship with men, walking among them on the earth, and being their God, incredibly he has chosen to dwell in the hearts of human beings. The true believer is the temple that God desires. I think that is there's just something special about that, and it goes back to you know um to those who love God. It's a special relationship with God because he dwells inside our our hearts and in our whole beings, you know. And I think a lot of people miss that point. And yeah, I've had discussions with lots of people who will say, you know, oh yeah, I know God, I believe in him. And it's like, yeah, but it's not just about believing in him, right? Um, the devil and all his demons, they believe in God, they believe in Jesus, but they don't follow him, right? They you need to have a relationship with him. That's what's important. And um, I guess that's kind of what we're we're pushing, not pushing for, but trying to make clear uh with some of these topics that we're talking about, like heaven. You know, that that's uh a pretty important one because if you want to want to get to heaven, um you gotta know Jesus, and Jesus needs to know you. So that was one of the verses I had. Um and then 2 Kings 2, 11 to 12. This one I found interesting. This is the story of Elijah when he gets taken up to heaven, and this is also part of the reason why I say I think heaven is is meant to be hidden, because there's a few stories you find in the Bible where people get taken up into heaven, but it doesn't it doesn't give you much of a description, it just says that they were taken up um with the wind or taken up with the clouds. Uh, this story, for example, like I said, 2 Kings 2, 11 to 12. As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them. And Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. I find it interesting how you know it almost seems like the way the Bible explains them being separated, Elijah being surrounded by a chariot of fire and horses. Like in my mind, it almost seems like he was being, you know, protected and as he was getting taken up to heaven, as to make sure that Elisha, you know, didn't maybe didn't get a full glimpse of heaven. I could be I could be a little bit off there, but that's kind of the picture I get in my head when I read that scripture. It does seem a little yeah.

Craig 16:09

Yeah, see so you're talking about like the chariot of fire separating him from this world? Is that what you're saying?

Colton 16:23

Kind of, because it says that Elijah was taken up into heaven in a whirlwind, right? And so I wonder if Elisha was near him, like would he have been able to get a glimpse of heaven from there? Like, I guess my question would be is that why there were chariots of fire and horses that separated the two? Because even earlier on in the passage, sir, um verse nine says, When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you? Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit, Elisha replied. You have asked a difficult thing, Elijah said. Yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours, otherwise it will not. Right? So yeah, it's really interesting because it's like if Elisha was beside or near Elijah when he was taken up in a whirlwind, would he have had a glimpse of heaven? That's a good question. It's an interesting question, and like you said, like oh man, there's there's so many questions that come up in this one. Um, here. I'll read the footnote. This will probably bring some clarity in my study Bible. Uh, this one's on verse 11. The Bible does not give very much information about exactly what happens to the believer after death. This verse says that Elijah went up to heaven, and it is assumed that he went to the same place to which Anak had been taken up. Jesus assured the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with him. So referring to heaven as paradise, and the Bible actually refers to heaven as paradise in more than one place. Um a place of which Paul also had a brief glimpse. So 2 Corinthians 12, 1 to 4. I have that um a little bit later on that I'll I'll discuss, but it says, while we do not have a clear picture of what it is like, we know that God will provide a place of beauty and rest for all his children. So yeah, even reading that, like it just makes me think that maybe Elisha was being protected from seeing a part of heaven maybe that we weren't supposed to see yet. Maybe yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's more of a question than a statement. Right.

SPEAKER_05 19:04

It is possible that that's why. Interesting.

Heaven Is Real And Prepared

Colton 19:18

Yeah, well, I have what do I have here? I had a couple other verses I was gonna talk about. Like I said, Luke 23, 43, Jesus mentions heaven being paradise. What exactly that means, I'm I'm not a hundred percent sure. Um, but I mean when you think of paradise, that sounds pretty perfect. And I mean, you think of a paradise on earth, sin still exists there. So imagine paradise in heaven with with no sin. Um, as the Bible says, no more tears, no pain, no mourning. You know, there's no need for for sun or moon because God, in all his glory, it gives light to all of heaven. Right. Uh, and then as I had mentioned, 2 Corinthians 12, 1 to 4. So this is where it got really interesting for me. I'm gonna read this one, and this is kind of part of uh what I think might be the answer to your question at the beginning, Craig. So uh 2 Corinthians 12 1 to 4. I must go on boasting, although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven, whether it was in the body or out of the body, I do not know. God knows, and I know that this man, whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know, but God knows, was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. So I think there's a lot to unpack in those four verses, but what I kind of got from it is that um again, like in my study Bible, it goes over some of those verses in the bottom here. So, my biggest question is with uh you know how it mentions um the third heaven, and so it's like, okay, well, what does that mean? What is the first heaven, second heaven? Like, what is that?

Craig 21:45

Yeah, so I've I've heard that before, and I yeah, I still don't understand that.

Colton 21:54

Yeah, my study Bible kind of lays it out actually, kind of nice. Um Chapter 12, verse 2, says Paul wrote 2 Corinthians in AD 56. 14 years earlier would have been AD forty two, probably when he was in Antioch. And then it talks about the third heaven. So it was common to speak of three heavens. The first is the atmosphere where the birds fly. The second is the place of the sun, moon, and stars. The third is where God dwells. And so yeah, which I thought was really interesting, but so that's only the first half of your question.

Heaven Defined By God’s Presence

Craig 22:42

And I think the rest of it I sorry, I was just gonna say the the first and second heaven heavens. I wonder if that's what like the in Genesis, God created the heavens and the earth.

SPEAKER_05 23:00

That might be the heavens that it's talking about.

Colton 23:05

Yeah, because I had never understood this, and after I read that, there's a lot of things I had questions on because the Bible talks about heaven a lot. So it's like, okay, well, are are we talking you know, heaven where God dwells? Are we talking heaven where we'll be? And this it'll get more interesting once we get into Revelation because I have a connection I think I made there that I've never made before that is like uh it just blew my mind. Um yeah, it's crazy, but uh the last couple verses, I'm not gonna read them, I'll just briefly touch on them. Uh, Isaiah 14 12. Heaven is above the earth, right? So it's far more superior. Um, maybe I'll I'll find this verse, and I'll talk about the next one too. So is it Isaiah 14 12? Again, have a lot of passages because I think heaven can be a very tough topic to speak on, I think, as we've both found out the last couple weeks. Yep. Okay, 1412. How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, sun of the dawn. You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations. So it's talking about when Satan got thrown out of heaven. Um, but it's talking about how he's been cast down to the earth, you know. And again, I think it just reinforces the idea that heaven is is paradise, you know. If you cast somebody down to something, you're sending them to something worse than where they were, which I thought was pretty interesting. Um, and then Luke 18 22 speaks about uh treasure in heaven, right? So one thing I've growing up is people always told you, well, your works don't get you into heaven. No, they don't. But the Bible also talks about how you're gonna be rewarded for the things that you've done on earth, right? And I didn't realize that until probably a few years ago. Right? It's an yeah, it's an interesting thought.

Physical Resurrection And Embodied Life

Craig 25:36

Yeah, that's uh that's a recent revelation for me as well. The uh us actually receiving rewards for how we serve God here. Um now that is something that I didn't get time to dig into. Um, it's something that I'd like to dig into a little more, but um I did enough studying to recognize that that is a thing, that's a real thing, and there are trevor treasures. There might be treasures in heaven too. There it probably is treasures, uh treasures in heaven.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

That's awesome.

Colton 26:22

Uh um, you know, it's it's weird because part of me wants to work uh part of me selfishly is like, okay, I'm gonna uh you know go to youth group or I'm gonna usher so that when I get to heaven, I'm gonna get more rewards, which I don't I don't know if that's the right way to do it. I want to serve God too, but I think it's hard not to get prideful with that sometimes too, though.

Craig 26:50

It can, I think, yeah, it can be like if you're doing it for the wrong reasons. I don't know. Is it is it prideful if you're wanting to serve? Here's the question Is it prideful if you're wanting to serve to gain the rewards in heaven that we're we're promised if we do that? I don't know. I wonder that's that's a good question. It might be the right thing, like that might be the right mindset.

Colton 27:23

Because it might be because God also tells us to set our hearts on the things above, right?

Craig 27:28

Yeah, and so this I'm just thinking through this right now. Um and then we are we're not to be prideful either or boast, but we are to boast in Jesus Christ. That's the only thing we're allowed to boast about. So can we have those longings for um well yeah, set your heart on the things above? Um, you're um placing your treasures in heaven instead of on earth, if you're doing things to to gain in eternity rather than here, maybe that's the right thing. I don't know. Some food for thought, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Like you said, that we might even have to think of second.

Colton 28:32

Yeah, this thing has made me think a lot. Like there is I I don't know. Heaven is uh it's a really cool thing to talk about, but man, is there ever is there ever a lot of information to go through and like it raises so many questions too, which I don't think we can answer all of them, but right.

Craig 28:55

The other thing is too, like in a couple episodes from now, we're gonna be talking about how we can be secure in our salvation um and know where we're going in in the afterlife, I guess you could say, but uh maybe that's something we dig into there. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

But we could add a little bit more there, actually.

Craig 29:20

Yeah, because I I know I was kind of finding some overlap with things that I was gonna mention that should actually go in that episode, so um, but anyway. Yeah, I have yeah, was that the end of your verses, or do you have more?

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yep.

Colton 29:42

No, that was good until we get into revelation.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

That's what I'm most excited for. I think we're gonna make some big connections for your question there.

New Heavens And New Earth

Craig 29:51

Uh that's good. Because I do have I do have some things there. Um for this, for what the Bible says, um heaven is actually like I do have some references to Revelation, but um okay, so the the first point I have is that heaven is real and prepared. So um in John 14, 2 to 3, so it says, uh in my father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself that where I am you may be also. So is John 14 2 to 3. I also have uh Hebrews chapter eleven. At first I had just sixteen, but I think I'm gonna read from thirteen to sixteen. Um these all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and uh greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland, if they had been thinking of the land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country that is a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. So there I even in my Bible I wrote this is not our home. I wrote that in the margin. Um so I did something different this time and took like my key points that we kind of had prepared, and then I did like a um I guess the camera's over there, but I did like a printed out study guide with some questions for me to think about and like actually answer. So that was kind of fun. Um but uh okay, so I wrote John says there are many rooms. Um, it is God's will that all be saved. So that's kind of what I thought of when I heard there are many rooms. We know that God's will is that none should perish, and there are many rooms prepared. Um, and then he'll also return to take us there with him, Jesus' will. Um then in Hebrews, uh, God is not ashamed to be called their God for those that seek a heavenly city. Um things that that affirmed for me was that like we hear in John 3.16, right? Um, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Um brought that to my to my mind as well. Um and then I wrote, It's noteworthy that God isn't ashamed to be called your God if you seek an eternity with him. Um and then the opposite of ashamed would be proud or uh unabashed. So if he's not ashamed, he may be proud to actually be called our God or unabashed to be called our God. Um so that was interesting to me. Um so heaven is real, like I said, there's rooms prepared for us. Uh heaven is a literal place that God is preparing for us. Um and then heaven. The second uh point that I have is heaven is defined by God's presence. Um so there I have revelations or revelation uh twenty-one verse three.

SPEAKER_04 34:34

I can get there.

Isaiah 65 And Millennial Views

Craig 34:38

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, Behold the dwelling place of God is with man, he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself we will be with them as their God. And uh in verses one to eight, I won't read it, but it does it talks about a new new heavens and new earth. Um Psalm sixteen eleven says, uh you make known to me the path of life, in your presence there is fullness of joy at your right hand, and uh pleasures forevermore. Um the fullness of joy um is reference to everlasting joy in I think in Psalm nine eleven or sixteen hold on a second. Oh no. Verses nine to eleven, sorry. Uh I might just read nine through eleven anyway. So therefore my heart is glad and my whole being rejoices. My flesh also dwells secure, for you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. And then eleven says, You make known to me the path of life, in your presence there is fullness of joy. Uh at your right hand are pleasures evermore. Um and then Second Corinthians, we're gonna I'm gonna be very uh very scripture heavy here, I think. Just a warning.

Colton 36:53

I definitely was too. There's yeah, a lot of good stuff.

Craig 36:58

Yeah. Um second Corinthians, we're gonna go chapter five and verses six to nine. So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. And I underline that in my Bible. So it's kind of a a kind of weird back and forth. Like, if we're in the body, we're away from the Lord, if we're with the Lord, we're away from the body. Um I think that's in reference to our physical body, our current physical body. Um so with that I noted that it is better to be at home with the Lord than in our body. Um Revelations uh I noted that God's dwelling place is with man, and our psalm verse there in chapter sixteen um references fullness of joy in God's presence. Uh and I think some of those things, or the if we think about the presence of of God, even in our daily lives, I think it's something that I value, but it's not something that I've really pondered on and actually realized that it is a it's a gift, right? It's not like it's what it's one of those things almost maybe that we as Christians take for granted of like God's presence in our lives.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Um yeah, I think I think it is. We don't often well, it's kind of like many people say too, right?

Genesis To Revelation: Bookends

Colton 39:23

Like prayer is kind of our last resort. Why it shouldn't be, you know, God should be number one, and and I think we do take it for granted that that he's here with us.

Craig 39:37

Um yeah, unfortunately.

Colton 39:40

I don't often think about it that way.

Craig 39:42

I'm guilty. Yeah. Um, so to sum that up, heaven is uh is defined by God's presence. So God's presence, not necessarily like beautiful scenery, you know, golden gates and and clouds to play around on, whatever. Um and then it's uh it's defined with eternal joy as well, which is I think something that we don't we can't even fathom. Like think of your happiest day, your most joyous day, and like 1000 X that and that might be close to what eternal joy is like um I also I'm gonna mention it now just because it came to mind and I don't have it written, but I was listening to a podcast on heaven as well, and they're talking about eternity. And um it's like as like as Christians, we like as followers of Christ, we have um we have eternal life. So you will you will live for eternity, but you will never reach that date. If that makes sense. Like you're not gonna be there for a million years and a million and one, you're like, Okay, yep, it's been eternity, good to go. It's kind of well, unfathom fathomable. Unfathomable.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

That's a tough thing to wrap your head around.

Craig 41:25

Yeah, exactly. Um okay. I'm gonna move on to uh my third point. Heaven is physical, not merely spiritual. I'll go to Luke twenty-four thirty-nine. One of these days. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

It's pretty crazy to think about what heaven is actually gonna be like when we get there.

Craig 42:10

Yeah, and like our anchor verse says, we can't imagine. So even trying is like even all this stuff that the Bible does say about heaven is kind of grasping at straws, and like it's like a glimpse. Yeah, so I don't know. Um Luke 24 thing.

Colton 42:33

Yeah, go ahead. I was just gonna say quick, don't you think like even that in itself, the the fact that uh God is creating a heaven that we can't imagine, but he calls it like it's a paradise that we could never imagine, doesn't that in itself just speak about the love of Christ? Like I don't know, in my opinion, that trumps all arguments on earth about how God doesn't love us.

Revelation 20–21: Judgment And Renewal

Craig 43:02

Yeah, that's pretty good. If you yeah, because if you think about what our earthly perception of quote unquote paradise is like, like it's not even not even close to what heaven is like. So people talk about you know, going spending time on the beach or whatever, you know, toes in the sand, watching the sunset, but yeah. Um okay, third point heaven is physical, not merely spiritual. First verse I have for that uh Luke 24, 39 says, See my hands and my feet that it is myself, touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have. Plus Jesus speaking when he appears to his disciples.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

Then a half oh uh oh no sorry First Corinthians fifteen forty two to forty-four.

New Jerusalem’s Dimensions And Glory

Craig 44:34

So is it with so is it with the resurrection of the dead? Uh what is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. So that's talking about our dead bodies going into the ground. What is sown is perishable, and what is raised up is imperishable. Uh it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power, it is sown in a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Um that is, I believe that's talking about a physical, uh, like resurrected body, right? Like it says spiritual, but I like a physical and then also like talking about if you go back to Luke, where Jesus uh revealed himself to his disciples, he was not a disembodied spirit or a ghost, he was physically resurrected. Um and then Philippians uh three Philippians Philippiums Philippians chapter three verses twenty and twenty one The Philippines um came but our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. So that references us being resurrected the same way Jesus was resurrected. Um so resurrection affirms embodied existence and not disembodied spirits. Uh and then I noted that perfection only comes after the resurrection. Um I like that yeah, yeah, and then one of the questions in my studying, like my study guide thing, it asks, um, how does this correct or expand my view of eternal life? And I think for me it affirms um what my current thoughts were, uh, because I did believe in a physical resurrection, and I definitely still do after studying. So right. Uh okay, fourth. Okay, this is the last point, and then um I want to talk about uh uh then I'm gonna talk about the the Puritans a little bit, what they believed, and then we'll kind of transition into the next segment here. Um so beautiful, B-E-A-U-T full. Alright, uh Revelation 21 again. But verse 1 this time. I like it.

SPEAKER_04 48:40

I like it. I love it.

Craig 48:41

I want some more of it.

Colton 48:45

It's funny you're reading a lot of the verses I have for the very end.

Craig 48:49

Oh, there so these are just like I'm I'm just like hinting at it, so you can expand on them if you want afterwards.

Colton 49:00

Well, I had there's a couple things I was gonna talk about um with the connections I made back in 2nd Corinthians, but I'll see. I'll wait till we get there and then I'll explain.

Craig 49:14

Okay, because I do have like for our um for our last kind of segment there before closing, we'll talk about uh like Genesis versus Revelation. I can't talk tonight. Revelation, Genesis versus Revelation, and how those correlate with each other in the bigger picture here. Um but yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_03 49:41

So we'll talk about sounds good to me.

Craig 49:44

Yeah, okay. Revelation 21, verse one. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. Interesting. I'm sure you have something to say about that later.

Colton 50:04

Um I have a so the first few verses in chapter 21, I have a lot to say on that.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Perfect. I like it. We'll dive into it deeper.

Eden Restored And Eternal Reign

Craig 50:16

Uh, and then Oh yeah. And then Romans Romans eight Romans eight nineteen to twenty one. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the Son of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope, that the creation itself will be set free from bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Um so we are sons of God. Um, so the points I want to make there with those is God restores creation rather than abandoning it. So uh heaven is connected to a renewed earth, and the I guess the new heaven as well. So if we think about, um, I didn't do too much digging into this, but heaven as it is now is not heaven as it will be um after the renewing of the old heaven and and the old earth. So something to something to think about.

Colton 52:10

Um that's kind of it's funny that you say it because that's kind of what I felt uh after looking through the Bible and coming up with some of these verses and stuff, is it seems like heaven is uh like our eternal heaven is not gonna come into place until this earth is uh I guess destroyed and and over with. It's kind of um yeah, that's kind of what it seems like the Bible is saying.

Open Questions And Listener Input

Craig 52:50

Yeah, I think okay, that might be actually I have this Isaiah 65, 17 to 25 to talk about. I still wasn't sure where to put it. I think we'll put it okay, yep we'll put it here. Um so if I go to that, um I go too far. Oh no, I forgot it. Isaiah Oh man. Isaiah sixty-five seventeen to twenty-five. Okay, it's a little bit of a section, but it's it talks it the heading here is New Heavens and New Earth, and listen carefully to what it says. So starting in verse 17 here. For behold, I create new heavens and new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind, but be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create. For behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy and her people to be a gladness. I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people. No more shall be heard in it the sounds of weeping and the cry of distress, no more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days. For the young man shall die a hundred years old, and a sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them, they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit, they shall not build and another inhabit, they shall not plant and another eat. For like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the Lord, and their descendants with them. Before they call I will answer. While they are yet speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall graze together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, says the Lord. So there's some confusing things there for me.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

Yeah, I would say.

Craig 56:38

This is something we could go down and talk about maybe in a whole episode by itself. But this is a rabbit hole I got sucked into because of these verses. Um, but so the pre-millennialism um sees this as a temporary restored kingdom on earth before the final resurrection. Other interpretations see it as prophetic imagery pointing to total restoration. Um, but I think what we can gather um in a purely solid exegetical sense is um that in Revelation 21, it does remove sin and death entirely. Um the eternal state is fully renewed, not partially. So whether this is a stopping point of heaven, like a like a tiered heaven or something, like a I don't know. People talk about purgatory, whatever. Maybe this is I don't I don't know. But um what we do know, uh, and we'll talk about more, I think, when we get into some more of the stuff in Revelation, is that there is no sin or death in heaven. Um eternally, and death is uh defeated entirely forever. Um and the heaven and heavens and earth are renewed fully, not partially. So I still don't know what to do with Isaiah 65, 17 to 25, but um I'm confused, so you guys can be confused with me.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

That would be a good topic to actually research and just do some digging on what that maybe what the context is, maybe uh further into I guess where it fits in line with Revelation too.

Craig 58:55

Right. Um, yeah, I think so too. And my my study Bible, I don't remember where it's at, but I was looking at it, it does break down the different views of millennialism. Um, there's like three or four different kinds and what they think, and like um talking about the thousand-year reign and all that kind of stuff. So that's all like Bible nerd stuff, which is fun, but I don't know if it's necessary, but it's fun to think about and it's fun to dig into. And the the more I dig into it, the more I was gonna say the more I understand, but not really. The more I understand the greatness and the goodness of God and how much I don't know. The more I know, the more I find out I don't know very much.

Community, Next Topics, And Closing Prayer

Colton 59:49

So yeah, well, and that's what it's like studying, like going through these episodes and stuff. Like, there's a lot of connections I've never made before, and then it's like, oh man, well, I thought I knew this before, but you know, even when it comes to heaven, it's like I did not know a lot of this stuff, and I still don't. And then, you know, some verses you read you leave more confused than you did before, but maybe that's for a purpose, maybe that you know draws us closer to God. Maybe we just seek his answer, and you know, maybe the Holy Spirit will discern what that verse means to us at some point, but maybe not. No, I don't know what you mean.

Craig 1:00:31

Yeah, we'll have to wait till heaven before we understand that. That's right, and then it won't really matter, I don't think. Yeah, that's right, yeah. But yeah, anyway. Um, so now I'll just mention a little bit about the what the Puritans thought about heaven, and I'll uh give a shout out to Joey. Thank you for mentioning that in our uh WhatsApp group there. Um, I did a little bit of studying. There's there's a lot more studying I could do on the Puritans as well. But what I did find is the Puritans of the 1600s didn't picture heaven as clouds or harps, like we talked about. Uh, for them, heaven was all about being with God or um yeah, the presence of God, um, fully restored in uh body and creation and enjoying purpose and fellow fellowship forever. They saw it as the eternal fulfillment of what God intended of in Eden, um, and that's uh you know, active, joyful, and infinitely satisfying in his presence. Um so uh we looked at what scripture says. We're gonna dig into it a little more here with Genesis and Revelation in a minute, but both scripture and the Puritans remind us that heaven isn't about escaping the world, it's about God dwelling with his people. Um that's exactly what we see when we look at the Bible as a whole, from Genesis, where God dwelt with humanity in the garden, to Revelation, where God dwells with us again in a renewed creation. The story starts with God's presence and ends with his presence. Heaven is the fulfillment of the world as he always intended it. So with that, we can move into um what Genesis, how Genesis and Revelation tie together um as bookends, I guess we'll say. Uh did you have did you have stuff for Genesis or just mostly Revelation?

Colton 1:03:03

Mostly Revelation. I didn't I have a little bit about Genesis, but not a whole lot.

Reviews, Shares, And Sign-Off

Craig 1:03:11

Okay. I could well I guess depending on how you want to do this, I was gonna say I could go through my Genesis stuff quickly, and then you could go through yours and then talk about Revelation, and then maybe we can just bounce off Revelation together. We could do that. Sure. Okay. Alright, so um Colton and I both kind of discovered that um Genesis chapter one and two are kind of it's almost like mirrors of what Revelation 20 and 21 are. Um it's like the beginning, uh like God's plan in the beginning, and then God's plan fulfilled in the end. Um and so I I had seen it written somewhere, I think, uh, in something I was reading, that Genesis and Revelation, like Genesis 1 and 2, then Revelation 20 and 21 are kind of like the bookends of basically the whole Bible scripture. Um, so that's kind of interesting. I don't think I ever thought of it that way before. Um, Genesis 1 and 2, um, which is the beginning. So Genesis 2.8. Um the Lord God planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. Genesis 2.15. The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and keep it. So there was still work at the beginning before sin, which is I never really thought about that either. I kind of thought that the work began after the fall. So that's something to think about too, when we talk about um when we think about heaven and our misconceptions of heaven of just being like a I guess a paradise like we see, sitting on the beach, not really doing anything, worshiping um forever, playing harps, whatever your vision of heaven is. I can I don't I don't know if I can guarantee it, but I I'm sure most of you guys didn't think there was work in heaven, so that's something to think about too. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and then so Genesis chapter three is when the fall was, but right before um God confronts Adam and Eve, um, this mentions like God. God was kind of always around, right? Uh he was always present. So they heard a sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day. So he was there. Uh relational. He God was near before the fall. And then the second point. Well that so first point for those three verses was God dwells with uh humanity. And then the second point is humanity has a purpose. Genesis 1, 26 to 28.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:40

Um let's see here.

Craig 1:06:55

So we were commanded to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. So that was kind of our job. God blessed them. God said to them to do that. Genesis 2.15. Uh Lord God took man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it, which we already mentioned. Um the third point uh creation is very good. God saw everything that he had made. This is Genesis 1.31. Saw everything he made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning the sixth day. Um fourth point for Genesis is no sin, no death, no curse until the fall. Um there's no death present prior to uh Adam and Eve's disobedience. Then after the fall, chapter 3, 17 and 19, God says, Curses the ground because of you, by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for you are dust, and to dust you shall return. So that's the curse. Uh yeah. I think that kind of sums up what what I had for Genesis. Okay. I think maybe some of those points weren't as clear as I thought they were, but we can continue.

Colton 1:09:03

No, I think those were really good. Um it'll work into to Revelation too a little bit with what we found. Uh so a couple points I want to make. Revelation 21. I spent quite a bit of time here. First point I want to make is Revelation 20, verse 11 to uh 15 here. It talks about the judgment of the dead, and so basically, and I don't want to get too much into it because next week or next episode, we're going to be talking a little bit more about um hell and what the Bible says about that. Um, but this passage here, Revelation 20, 11 to 15, talks about the judgment of the dead and how if your name is not found written in the book of life, you will be thrown into the lake of fire. And it says the lake of fire is the second death. And so I think this is gonna be kind of at the end of the world, um, and then we get into Revelation 21, where it says, Um, like Craig said, then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. So, first question. When it says new heaven and new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, you remember how I mentioned in 2 Corinthians that they uh spoke about there being a first and second and third heaven? So, do you think that means that the first heaven being the atmosphere of the world passes away? Or do you think that means like the heaven where God dwells passes away, and there's a new heaven? What do you what do you think about that one? Because I guess I'm not totally sure what to think yet.

Craig 1:11:05

I was gonna say I don't have anything to back this up, but I think this is my opinion. Do with that what you will.

Colton 1:11:22

Okay.

Craig 1:11:23

Um, I just I was thinking about like uh you talk about Enoch and uh was it Elijah that got taken up? Uh I was kind of thinking about this when you were talking about that, and I was like, back then they got they got taken up into heaven. Now is that the current heaven or is that the final heaven? Right, I don't know.

Colton 1:11:51

Like it okay, so I'll go to my next point because this is okay, so this is where for me it got really interesting. So 2 Corinthians 12, 1 to 4, we were talking about how the third heaven is where God dwells, right? Yeah, so and you read this verse too. Um I'm just gonna touch on it here again. So let's go verse 2 and 3. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride, beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, Look, God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. So if the third heaven is where God dwells back in Second Corinthians twelve, one to four, but now the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, and it says, Um God's dwelling place is now among the people. So does that mean that the herd sorry, the third heaven where God dwelled has now come down to the new heaven, and this is his dwelling place now with all of his people? So, along with your question, Craig, like how people say they've seen heaven, my the way I kind of understand this is like I said, you know, Revelation 20, being the judgment of the dead. I feel like this is going to be at the end of the world when Jesus judges us on what we've done, whether our our names are found in the book of life or not. So is there this third heaven where God currently dwells that we go to when we pass away? And then when the end of the world comes, is that when this new heaven is created? And is that why nobody, why the Bible says that nobody has seen or heard what God has the good God has planned for those who love him? What do you what do you think about that?

Craig 1:14:22

I don't know.

Colton 1:14:24

Um maybe it's hard to say because maybe I'm overcomplicating things, but it just kind of it's a thought that kind of struck me. I'm like, wait a second. So in 2 Corinthians, God's dwelling places, as my study Bible says, in this third heaven is what they consider God's where God dwells. But then here it says, you know, now God's dwelling place is among the people in this new Jerusalem, in this new heaven, right? And the heading for this is a new heaven and a new earth. So it's like, okay, well, is there I don't know, is there like some sort of in between where we get sent until the end of the world when God creates this new heaven where we will all because the Bible talks about the dead being raised up and those who are still living meeting together in the sky.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:32

Right? Right.

Craig 1:15:36

So I wonder. And that's what I was wondering too, like, is is there like an intermediate heaven? Like the the current heaven is maybe intermediate. And then the like the new heaven will come after judgment. After this after this old earth is destroyed, I guess. Right?

Colton 1:16:08

Destroyed, is that the right thought after it passes away?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:16

Yeah.

Colton 1:16:19

I don't know. Honestly, if we're gonna be looking into hell on the next episode, that might bring more clarity on this question.

Craig 1:16:30

We might get some aha mode in the next episode.

Colton 1:16:35

Yeah, I don't want to say for sure because, like I say, uh I think this is where a lot of people can get turned the wrong direction, which is not what we want to do. Um but I like I don't know. Maybe I would have to do some more studying, but to me it seems like that would be the case, is that this new heaven and new earth aren't meant to be available until the until the old earth and old heaven pass away. So I don't know, like that's kind of that's what it seems like, hmm. Yeah, and like I say, I don't want to say for sure. I I should probably study on that more, but that's kind of the feeling I'm getting.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:30

Right?

Colton 1:17:30

Um yeah, so even if you go down to well, verse four, it explains a little more what heaven is like. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. Uh and then verse five again. It says, He who is seated on the throne said, I am making everything new. Then he said, Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true. He said to me, It is done, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and the liars, they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. So verse five, it says uh he who is seated on the throne said, I make in everything new.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:42

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:45

What um where are you again?

Colton 1:18:47

See so Revelation 21, verse five.

Craig 1:18:53

Oh, I was trying to find that in Second Corinthians still.

Colton 1:18:58

Like, I don't know, oh Second Corinthians I had Second Corinthians 12, 1 to 4. But that's interesting though, isn't it? Like it kind of I don't know. Like I say, it's hard to say, but that's sort of that's sort of what I'm gathering, and again, I I don't want to say for sure. I need to do some more studying and research on this.

Craig 1:19:28

Yeah, I think the point today, like this is um, I think this is just scratching the surface of this topic, really, and it's still this is still gonna be a long one, but um I would I would encourage you guys that are listening, um, go ahead and study these verses for yourself and see what else you can find. And I mean, yeah, we are we're always trying to learn more about what God says about himself and about um us and about eternity, and I mean the more we can try to understand um what his plan is for us, and like also understanding this heaven thing is like, well, why? There's gonna be some people that maybe are not believers or they're questioning their faith or whatever, and like why do I even want to go there? Right? Like, what's the point? Why? Um, and I think if you listen to both this episode and the hell episode, you'll understand why.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:46

But I mean I think it will bring a lot of clarity, yes.

Craig 1:20:51

Yeah, so this is just us trying to flesh this out for ourselves as well, and you guys get to listen. Um, but do do some do some research yourself, do some searching yourself. And I mean, some of this stuff doesn't really matter in regards to eternity, but it is it is something that some people are like, okay, if I'm trying to get to heaven, what am I even striving for? Right yeah, so we will wrap this all up in a bow and kind of tell you our thoughts of what what it is in like a paragraph, but it's all the in-between and how we get there. That's kind of it's fun and it's challenging, and um well makes a good learning for us too.

Colton 1:21:44

Yeah, yep, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:48

That's why I think um yeah.

Colton 1:21:52

Well, you know what? That question there, I might even I'm gonna kind of leave that open-ended. If if you guys want to let us know what your thoughts are on that, whether uh yeah, I guess if this new heaven and new earth are a thing that happen at the end of the world, you know, once God takes all his children and and once he judges every person according to what they've done, let us know what your thoughts are on that too. Um, in the meantime, I guess we'll quickly go through the rest of what we had here, but uh continuing on through Revelation. Um one thing I found interesting. So once you get to verse 9, it's the new Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb. So as you go through Revelation 21, verse 9, kind of up to chapter 22 there. Uh there is talk about how the city of Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. Um, this new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. Not only that, but the and I never knew this until I read this like a couple days ago. But there's measurements to this city. Did you know that? I did. Like they actually have this city measured. I I didn't I never realized that.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:19

Yeah.

Colton 1:23:20

Um, and then it goes over all the jewels that are gonna be in this city, it goes over um the angels. Uh, where does it say here? It shone with the glory of God, and his brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. Um kind of goes on to explain a little bit more about the gates. City was laid out like a square as long as it is wide. He measured the city with a rod and found it to be twelve thousand stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. Um The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was a hundred and forty-four cubits thick. And then it says the wall is made of jasper in the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. Then it goes over a few different stones that they had built into the walls. Um, and then the interesting part here too, verse 22 I did not see a temple in the city because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. It speaks about how the gates will never close, nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. So again, just perfection, and it just over and over and over, it gives you just hints of everything just being perfect, you know? Every a golden how did it put it here? Where did I find that? And the city of pure gold as pure as glass. Like that's that's something to think about. Um, I noticed too. So I guess sort of in a bit of a conclusion, what I the point I came to is I think heaven is gonna be kind of a uh kind of like the garden of Eden before sin entered it. You know, as Craig was saying, I I think there's gonna be work intending the garden, you know, there's gonna be things to do. Um, there's going to be the new Jerusalem, but chapter 22 in Revelation says Eden restored, and so it talks about the river uh of the water of life as clear as crystal flowing from the throne of God, uh, and of the lamb down the middle. Sorry, down the middle of the great street of the city, on each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month, and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse, the throne of God of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him, they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night, they will not need the light of a lamp, nor the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light, and they will reign forever and ever. So I I guess the reason I say I think it's going to be a lot like the Garden of Eden is it mentions um the tree of life in Revelation 22, being on either side of this crystal clear river that's flowing from the throne of God, which I think kind of references, you know, the Garden of Eden, like I said, and um the tree of life from the beginning, but this time there will be no sin that will enter, and it will be um the way God had intended it to be right from the beginning.

Craig 1:27:29

Yeah, I think that's what I've gathered as well. And something that I found in my studying, now whether whether this is true or not, um I'd have to do some more research, but there's this thought like we talk about the Garden of Eden. Um so the garden is just a a piece of Eden. Right? Eden is like a nation, like it talks about, right? There's that garden in the center with the with the rivers, the four rivers, right? Um and then also I seen uh where'd I see that? I should have kept my finger there. Um there's the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit. Uh oh, for the healing of the nations. Um there is this new city, but it also talks about nations.

Colton 1:28:52

Right. Yep.

Craig 1:28:53

Um I did see something about that in there too. In in verse 24 of chapter 21, by its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. So that's interesting. Like, is there because it does talk about new new heaven, new earth?

SPEAKER_04 1:29:21

It sounds like the new heaven is this new Jerusalem.

Craig 1:29:27

And then maybe the new earth is the rest, like the rest of the world. But what now there's more questions? Who is dwelling in the rest of the world? And like, me is that in correlation to our treasures in heaven? I don't know.

Colton 1:29:46

Well, then when it talks about the kings bringing their splendor from earth, like what like what does that mean? Because my understanding was that you could never like anything that we have on earth would not go with us to heaven, but then like I don't I don't understand. I don't understand what that means, honestly.

Craig 1:30:13

Yeah, me neither. Any of you Bible scholars listening, you go ahead and tell us what that's supposed to mean.

Colton 1:30:22

Uh yeah, please help us with this just a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:29

I'm gonna see here. Oh, it's not a verse that my Bible, my study Bible covers.

Craig 1:30:38

Oh, is there a verse that says um like being in in Christ that we are kings and queens? Is there something like that?

SPEAKER_03 1:30:56

There might be just looking here because I might have found something, but I don't know for sure. Okay.

Colton 1:31:18

So in the very bottom, my uh my Bible has a reference uh to 21 verse 24 where it says the kings bring their splendor. Um Isaiah 60 verse 3 and 5. So Isaiah 63 says, Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn. I don't think that helped me a whole lot. Verse five says, Then you will look and be radiant, your heart will throb and swell with joy. The wealth of the seas will be brought to you, to you the riches of the nations will come. Yeah, I'm still I'm still slightly lost on that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:58

Okay, so my commentary wouldn't even mean anything physical.

Craig 1:33:03

My commentary uh in my study Bible for uh Revelation twenty-two five says in union with Jesus, their king, believers will not only worship as priests, but also reign as kings over the new earth forever and ever.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:26

Oh, okay.

Craig 1:33:28

So do it that way, you will. Um so there is like I have I have that like there's that idea, and I think there's a song that says we're kings and queens, but is that is that biblical? It seems like it might be, and so when it talks about kings, maybe maybe it's referencing us as believers. Um and then you said they're spoils?

SPEAKER_03 1:34:08

Is that what uh splendor splendor what verse was that?

Colton 1:34:23

Uh twenty-four, uh chapter twenty-one, verse twenty-four. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.

Craig 1:34:34

Okay, my the ESV says glory. Um twenty-four.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:40

Oh, okay. Okay, that might make more sense then.

Colton 1:34:56

Another thing I noticed too is uh the Bible does actually say there won't be any sea in heaven.

Craig 1:35:05

But it does mention the river down the street, right?

Colton 1:35:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:11

So there's no sea river down the center, down the center.

Colton 1:35:17

Um, but that's just in the city because my yeah, because my Bible says that uh the present heaven and earth, including the sea, were burned up in the great white throne judgment. There will be a continuation of some features of the present creation in the new heaven and new earth, yet the drastic difference in the new eternal state is obvious from the fact that there will be no more sea, which was a major part of the original creation.

Craig 1:35:53

Now the old earth will pass away. Does that mean as we understand it now? I guess is the next question. Um, or how we how we perceive it. Like the the earth the way it is now will pass away, but he's making a new like will this earth be made new and it says burned up.

Colton 1:36:35

Oh man, I I don't oh yeah, I'm kind of lost a little bit with some of these questions.

Craig 1:36:45

Oh man. I mean, I'm not necessarily looking for an answer because I don't know.

Colton 1:36:51

But that's something to think about. Yeah. Like I say, you know what? I think I think once we do uh once we talk about hell a little bit, I think we'll have a better idea on a lot of these questions.

Craig 1:37:12

Yeah, I think we may too.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:15

Um yeah, so the um let's see.

Craig 1:37:29

So I guess yeah, I have some other verses and stuff, but we can probably just move on to our conclusion here. Because I I have a lot of what you already kind of said, so we uh I I can read the reflection points I have for for the revelation verses. Um heaven is creation healed, not abandoned by God. Um and we go from so this is like the timeline. We go from the garden to the garden city, um, and from presence in Genesis to presence with God in Revelation as well, and then we have purpose in Genesis and purpose in Revelation as well. Um so the end the end in Revelation mirrors the beginning in Genesis, uh, and only redemption makes it permanent, and like we are in we're the in the in-between right now, I think. Um heaven was always meant to be like the world before sin. So, like we mentioned, Eden was the original plan. Um, and I think God in his infinite knowledge would have known that things would go sideways. Um he would have had a plan to fix it anyway. So I think heaven is not a plan B, uh, but it's uh creation healed and restored to its former glory. It is, yeah, it's Eden restored, humanity redeemed, and creation renewed. Um yeah, with so with our anchor verse, what we haven't or what we can't imagine isn't doesn't mean yeah, sorry, let me resay that. What we haven't imagined or what we can't imagine isn't less real. Um I think it's more complete and beyond what we can know or conceive. Um so our hope I wonder this kind of goes away along with what I was saying with the like this earth being restored, but I wonder if the Christian hope is not escaping Earth, but seeing Earth renewed to its former glory. Um from so this is kind of like my closing statement here. So from Genesis to Revelation, the Bible forms one unified story uh with matching book ends. In Genesis, God dwells with humanity in a good creation. There is purpose, peace, and no sin or death. In Revelation, God dwells with humanity again in a renewed creation. Once more, there is no curse, no death, and restored fellowship. The story does not move from physical to spiritual, but from broken to healed creation. Uh, the end mirrors the beginning. Only this time redemption has made it permanent. So in the end, the goodness will be eternal, and all of all the bad will pass away, and we will I mean, providing we put our hope in in Christ, we will be in heaven eternally. There will be no sin, there will be no death, there will be no weeping. Um, it will all be good. So that was a lot, but um, yeah. I think it gives us a better idea of what heaven is like, and I think the the main thing that I realized was that revelation, like the end, does mirror the beginning, and revelation is the um God's plan for us coming to fruition and being fulfilled um in the new heaven and new earth.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:50

So yeah, yeah, and I think that was a good study, you know.

Colton 1:42:56

There's a lot of good information in there about heaven and a lot of things I think a lot of people maybe didn't realize. Um and like we say, our our next episode is gonna be on hell, and so I think that's gonna bring more clarity on on both sides of it, too. And uh yeah, again, just I think it'll reiterate the the love that God has for us, the fact that He's preparing such a beautiful and perfect place for us. Um you know, one thing I do want to say before we kind of get wrapped up here, too, is as we get into our next episode on hell, God never um God never created hell for for people. He doesn't want people to go there. And I know we've said this before too, but again, God loves us enough that he's given us free will. Uh, that's why he created heaven, is so that if we choose to follow and have a relationship with Christ, then there is a place waiting for us in heaven. Again, another episode we'll talk about is just um I guess affirming our salvation, knowing that we're saved, or how do we know we're saved? So again, I I won't touch too much on that because that'll be our next few episodes here, but um, as for today, that's kind of a wrap-up on on heaven and what we see heaven as. And uh in the future, who knows? We might even do another one or two episodes that dig a little deeper into some of the topics we had questions on, too. So right.

Craig 1:44:36

Yeah, if there is anything. Yeah, if there's anything you guys want uh want us to dig deeper into that maybe you you had some more questions come up for yourself when when you're listening to us talking about this stuff. Um if we don't answer them in the next couple episodes, let us know and we'll try to uh try to dig into those a little deeper as well. Maybe we'll if they're not too big a question, maybe we can do like a Q ⁇ A session or something. Or um if they are kind of deeper, then we can make a whole episode out of it. But again, with uh with the WhatsApp community, um, we may move that on to Discord, we'll see here. Um, just for privacy's sake, I feel uh convicted on that. But um I just gotta figure that out, make sure it all works. But uh if you are in our private um brotherhood community, you get first dibs on episode picks. So um those guys in there. Well, yeah, it's small right now, but it's growing. And uh thank you guys for for being in there. And uh, if you guys are interested, you're listening and you're not in there yet, shoot us a text or or a message on Facebook or something like that, and we'll get you in there. Um, but yeah, other than that, I think we can probably close in prayer, and then that'll be it for today.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:08

Yeah, absolutely. I can uh I can close us in prayer if we want. Okay, sure. I'll allow it.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:19

Look at that. Let's do it. Okay, sounds good.

Colton 1:46:24

All right, thank you, Father, again for this day, just for the freedom we have to study your word, Lord, for um speaking to us through it. We pray that for those listening too, Lord, that uh some questions may have been answered going through this, just understanding what heaven is like, and again, just understanding uh more of your love for us and how unconditional it it truly is, Lord, and how great your love really is. We pray, Father, as we uh head into the weekend here pretty soon, we just ask for your peace. Help us to keep our mind and our heart set on the things above and not on the things of earth, and uh help us to make a difference in people's lives, Lord. I know there's a lot of people hurting and a lot of people um depressed and and they don't know which way to turn. And so I just pray that we would have the opportunity to reach these people um and to just be a light to them, Lord, that uh Jesus, you would shine your light through us and that they would see the joy and peace that um is achievable with you. We ask for just a good evening this evening, Lord, and um bless us, bless the people listening, and um yeah, help us to grow closer to you every day. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.

Craig 1:47:47

Amen. And uh if you guys found this episode useful, uh we'd appreciate your uh liking, and uh I think there's a review uh spot as well on Apple and Spotify. Um give us a like on YouTube if you're watching on YouTube and share this with a brother. We'll catch you next week.

Colton 1:48:14

Have a great weekend, guys.