Ep. 17 - Most People Get Hell Wrong

We press into what Scripture says about hell, Hades, judgment, and the Book of Life, and why eternal separation from God is the most sobering truth we face. We contrast cultural myths with biblical language and make an honest appeal to consider Jesus today.

• Revelation 20 and the second death 
• Hades as temporary, lake of fire as final 
• Myths and metaphors that blunt hell 
• Luke 16: conscious torment and fixed chasm 
• Fire, darkness, and sulphur imagery 
• Eternal separation from God explained 
• False assurance and “I never knew you” 
• Romans 1: being given over to sin 
• Annihilationism vs eternal conscious torment 
• Why the cross answers justice and mercy

If you want to talk or take a next step with Jesus, reach out: “You can reach us on Facebook, comment on YouTube, or text us through the podcast app. If you can’t reach us, find a Bible‑believing Christian or a trustworthy pastor. Confess that Jesus is Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead.”

Transcript

Setting The Stage: Hell’s Reality

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Welcome to the Brotherhood Podcast.

Revelation 20 And Key Takeaways

Craig 0:23

Welcome to another episode of the Brotherhood Podcast. This is episode 17, so that's exciting. Um, all right, today I don't have a joke for you guys today, but um we're gonna talk about something kind of serious. We talked about heaven last week, and the opposite of that is hell. So um we have done some studying. We took a couple weeks again on this one to kind of pull our thoughts together and some scripture and things like that, and some guidance from different places, and um so we are going to go through some of that for you guys today. We have some key points, and uh I think this will be a good conversation, and um yeah. Our anchor verse is not really just a verse this week, it's a passage, and uh I'll let Colton read that, but that's Revelation 20, 13 to 15.

Hades Versus Hell: Are They Different

Colton 1:27

Yeah, so it says, The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. So there's uh there's a few good points in there, um, a few good talking points. Uh the first one I wanted to talk about is like we had spoken last week um about there being you know heaven and the new Jerusalem coming down. It's funny, I actually I was telling Craig just before we started that uh I talked to um a youth leader that I have been um blessed to be able to uh I don't know if you'd say work with or maybe serve with uh as as a leader as well. Um, but I asked him what he thought of heaven and what we had talked about last week, and he said he made an interesting point uh about God and our eternity being outside of time. So he explained it as as humans, we see time on like a linear line. That's kind of how we measure time, but in eternity, I don't think that exists. So the possibility to be in heaven immediately is there. It was an interesting thought, something to think about, anyways. Um and I think where I was going with that is uh before I had spoken with him and and gotten that point of view, a thought that I had on this too is that there's um a possibility that maybe Hades and uh hell or the lake of fire are are different or separate because it says the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them. Each person was judged according to what they had done. Um, and then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire, and so it's kind of an interesting point and interesting to think about. We can discuss it as we get further into the episode here. Uh, another point I wanted to point out is this is the second death being thrown into the lake of fire. So it's kinda it's kind of a scary thought, actually. Uh I think as humans we're I think it's kind of natural to maybe be afraid of death, but the fact that the Bible explains this as the second death uh and for eternity, that's uh that's a big deal. Um that's that's something to think about. Uh and then anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. So the book of life is the book at the end of time when we meet Jesus, he's gonna have a book. And if your name is written in that book, then you have a place in heaven, and if it is not, then you do not have a place in heaven. Um I know Craig had a couple points on this too, so I'll let him I'll let him speak on that so I don't take too much.

Common Myths And Cultural Cartoons

Urgency To Share: Love And Truth

Craig 4:53

No, it's good. Uh yeah, I do have a couple points to make here too. And uh just to let you guys know, some of my studying for this episode. Um, I mean, we'll bring it into current events here as well. We've got uh I don't know how many of you guys listening know about this whole uh Kirk Cameron thing with him um pivoting to uh believing in annihilationism, which we'll get into in a little bit, um, versus eternal conscious torment in hell. Um but so I I watched the it's called Hellgate, if you guys want to check it out on YouTube. I think it's on Spotify as well. Um he gets some guys together and they just kind of hash this out um and their scripture to uh to I don't know if you'd say defend support is the word I'm looking for, to support either view, um, which is interesting. And uh something else that I did was um I got given a little while ago, uh around Christmas time, somebody had given me Francis Chan's book, um, Erasing Hell, and I started reading it. I'm not much of a sit-down and read kind of person, so if you are listening, um Jason, it uh I do appreciate it, and I did read some of it, but I um I also went and got it on Audible and listened to it. So I listened to it for like a couple times while we were preparing for this episode. So all that to say is um I've got some references to some things that um were said in that Hellgate um video, and then also in Francis Chan's book, Erasing Hell. So um some observations here on this uh key passage that uh Colton shared. It says Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire, therefore they are not uh identical to it. So um like there's this I think there's this thought that like uh like Hades is hell and like uh hell is a lake of fire, and they're all kind of synonymous, but you you'll find that as we go through this, they're not. Um and then there is, it seems as though with the scripture that we're gonna look at, there is a sequence um and distinction between them. And something that Francis Chan said in his book is that um we must let scripture define hell rather than sentiment or cultural discomfort. So um, with that whole annihilation idea, like I said, we'll talk about it later, but we'll dive into it a little deeper. But it might almost be easier to think, oh yeah, we're just destroyed at the end. How why would a good and loving God want to torture somebody forever? So we'll dive deeper into that stuff. But before we do, um our first point is what is the common worldly perception of hell? So I have a few, I'll just share my points and then Colton, you can share yours. We'll just kind of do a back and forth and have a chat about it. But um I have here a cultural view. Uh, it's like cartoonish, the devil um being red and he's got a pitchfork. Um, like a there's like a party atmosphere to it as well. People are like, oh yeah, see you in hell. Um, they think it's a cool thing. Then there's the temporary punishment that some people think of as well. Um, or some people also might think of it as a metaphor only, like it's a psychological state, or it's not real, um, those kind of things. And uh I think that this is interesting to think about too. Um, like the modern Christian drift. Um, Francis Chan also addresses the growing tendency to soften hell into a metaphor, assume annihilation without biblical support. So this might ruffle some feathers for people. Like this, we're gonna talk about it, and it's hard for me not to go into it because I reference it quite a few times, but we'll talk about it later. Um, we'll just touch on it now. But uh, yeah, assuming annihilation without biblical support uh suggest universalism. So uh love wins for everyone eventually. Um and I think in scripture we see that well, you hear people in culture as well, like just in out in the world, even though they don't believe in God, they would say God is love, and even like progressive uh Christians would say they hold on to that God is love thing. But we what we also have to recognize is that the Bible says God is a just God as well, and if you sin against him, there's consequences. Um so we'll talk about that as well, I think. Um but I know I'll say this too. I'll I make my notes, but then when I'm reading through them, other things come to mind too. So yeah, um so uh let's see. So Francis Chan also argues that the danger isn't believing too much about hell, it's believing too little because we're uncomfortable. Um he talks about like when he's writing the book, he's sitting in a coffee shop, and so he's like writing about hell and he's like looking up and looking at all these people, and he's like these like a lot of these people could be going to hell, and it's that's an uncomfortable thought if you're out in public and you're like, oh, all these like a lot of these people around me are going to spend eternity in hell. That's a hard thing to accept. So um, yeah, back to the whole letting scripture define what hell is, not our own sentiments. Um I have a couple verses I should have turned here earlier, but uh Matthew Matthew 13.

Colton 12:33

I was gonna say just real quick while you're looking for that. Um I don't remember where I heard it or who exactly had said it, but um I I listened to a guy speaking about this once, and he was talking about how when the end of the world comes, just imagine yourself going to heaven and you look back and you see your friends not going to heaven, and they say to you, like, Why didn't why didn't you ever tell me? Why didn't you tell me that this is what was gonna happen or that this is this is how it ends? And uh that's a thought that kind of hit me too because how how often do we we think about hell and it's like oh I'm a Christian, I I'm not going there, I know I'm going to heaven. But then when we have the opportunity to share about it, we're scared of being judged, or we're scared of what people are gonna think about us because of you know talking to them about Jesus. And when it comes to eternity, like man, that's something we as Christians, I think, need to need to be bold about. And um I mean, hell is not a place that any human being on planet earth should want to go. And uh, I think as Christians it's our job to to make people aware of that, you know, that uh eternity brings two places that you can go and spend your eternity, either with God or eternally separated from God. So, which we'll talk more about later in the episode too. I just wanted to bring that up. I thought that was uh a valid point on what you had said there too, Craig.

Craig 14:20

No, that is good. Yeah, I've heard that said before too. Um and unfortunately, I think there's gonna be some people that say that to me. They're gonna say, Why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you warn me? Um and that's sad to think about too. Yeah. To try and think like to put our kind of earthly temporal emotions aside and okay, if we tell them tell them about the gospel and tell them like the well the wages of sin is death, right? And uh and then eternal separation from our creator, God for them to just scoff at us and make fun of us and um say that we're stupid or whatever, um sure it hurts our feelings, but I mean what like what does it really matter? Um eternally, I think it matters if if they can say, Oh, yeah, I was wrong, you were right, instead of why didn't you tell me about this? Yes. So if we can get if we can get beyond that, I think that's where we need to get to as believers, yeah, to be able to um to share the gospel with people, share Jesus with people. Um and if they make fun of us, so what? If they spit in our face, so what?

Colton 15:57

That's something it's interesting. That's something we talked about at youth group on on Tuesday. Um was Jesus went to the cross while being spat on, while being mocked, while being beaten. And so if the Son of God goes through that by trying to tell people about eternity and and how to live and how to be in a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, um, then we as Christians are gonna have that same thing happen. And uh that's something I've struggled with a lot too, is I've I've had a few people pass away that I've worked with that after the fact, you know, you feel horrible that we didn't, you know, that I didn't step up and do something. I feel bad that maybe I didn't take opportunities that I should have, maybe I didn't say something I should have. And uh at the end of the day, it's not our job to it's not our job to make people Christians, but it is our job to love people, to show them the love of Christ, and to live as Jesus did. Um the opportunities come up, yeah, please take them because that might be the only chance somebody has to hear about uh about Jesus Christ and his love for them. And you know what? If they laugh at you, so be it. It's not a big deal, right? Jesus says people hated him first, therefore they're gonna hate us, so expect it.

Youth Group Stories And Tough Witnessing

Craig 17:38

Right. I seen a meme, I think it was today. It was uh oh man, I don't know who it was Reverend Zang. It said Peter or Paul. I think it was Peter, but it and then there was like a new believer, and then so Peter or Paul, whoever it was, it was like you're you're gonna suffer and you're gonna like it. To the new believer. It's like that's pretty accurate. I like that. That should be a picture up on my wall. It should be. You should frame it and put it by your your uh well, you got you got a wedding picture up there, and then or is it two wedding pictures? Oh, the skitter and the wedding picture.

Colton 18:25

For those of you who don't know, I'm very passionate about heavy equipment, so I have hundreds of pictures of machines in my house and photo albums, and they're maybe not all hanging, but they're here somewhere.

Craig 18:41

There's help if you're addicted. I think there's a help. I might have to hook into that. Oh anyway, back to back to scriptures. Yes. Uh Matthew 13, 49 to 50 says So it will be at the end of the age, the angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Um then I have Mark 9 forty-seven forty-eight. If your eyes cause you to sin, tear if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. So there it's referencing the um the unquenching fire. That to me references eternal. Anyway, we'll get to that later. Second Thessalonians Yeah. No, I it's so hard because I spent a lot of time digging into that, but anyway. Oh, I know. Second Second Thessalonians 1 to 9. 1. Second Thessalonians chapter 1, verse 9. Um The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders. Is that nope, that's chapter 2.

Colton 20:38

Apologies. I have done that more than once. Let's try. Bible is very big, and there's lots of important information, so that's understandable. Yeah.

Craig 20:49

I was reading it and I'm like, I don't remember this at all. Uh chapter one. Are you sure it's chapter one? Yes. Well, that's what my notes say. For they themselves report concerning as the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God. Um I don't know, I don't remember why I have that there.

SPEAKER_05 21:26

Anyway, I might take that out.

Craig 21:28

Um I have it wrote in my notes, they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord. Is that what I said? For they themselves report concerning us uh the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols.

SPEAKER_05 22:08

Okay.

Luke 16: Rich Man And Lazarus

Craig 22:11

I don't know. Because that's not what that says. Anyway. I have a note here too, though, um, before you go. On Kirk Cameron's Hellgate discussion, um, a major theme was that if Jesus spoke about hell um or Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone else, why are we embarrassed to? So um I think sometimes it can be a kind of a dodgy discussion or like a discussion we want to shy away from. Um especially if we're trying to win people to the Lord, we don't necessarily want to talk about hell and destruction. Um but it's the truth and people need to hear it. And I wonder if that I don't know. Um, this is just a thought, so do with it what you will. But I wonder um why there might be so much misconception about um what the Bible actually says, is because people are all about like we talked about the love of God and the acceptance of God and all like that side of him and not about the just side of him. And so I think if we don't talk about both sides of it, if we talk about the the redemption side of it, but also the punishment side of it, then people get a whole picture, and then we don't well, not for sure, but then we're less likely to get false converts, I think, is my perception of that.

Conscious Torment And Biblical Language

Colton 24:03

So yeah, I I think like you said, the world tries to soften it. Um it's kind of like anything, right? Like when it comes to such a serious topic, and especially something like hell, uh, even as Christians, you know, like you said, Craig, um, for myself, it's it's hard to talk about it because to tell somebody that you're either going to heaven, and if you're not going to heaven, well then you're going to hell. I I don't know. There's just something about telling somebody that that feels wrong, you know. Um we we wanna I have the tendency to kind of beat around the bush, if that's how you want to put it. Um, when it comes to that kind of stuff, right? It's like, well, hey, like you should be careful because of this. No, no. It needs we need to be more direct and be like, hey, like, do you know about heaven? Do you know about hell? Do you know about Jesus and what he did for you to save you? Um, we'll talk about it a bit later, too. I think Craig had a couple points on this too, but uh the Bible also talks about how hell was never created for people. So God wants to be in a relationship with us, he wants to save us, and he wants to see us in heaven. But um, like we've talked about before, he loves us enough to give us a free will to make our own decision. So whether you choose God or whether you don't choose God, um there's either heaven that you can spend eternity in, or there's hell. Um, one thing I had written down, or one thing I had thought about while doing some studying for this, too, is um just the fact that like I've heard it before where people think it's gonna be a party, just like Craig said, you know, oh no, we're just gonna go to a warm place with all my buddies. It is anything but uh a warm place. Um I growing up in youth group, they let me do a sermon. Well, I wouldn't say a sermon, I was more so uh I guess just allowed to um talk at one of our youth events, and so I had spoken on I think I was speaking on love or on fear, and anyways, uh I tried to do I tried to come up with this example of of I guess I don't know, I don't know where my head was at with this one, but I I took a match and I asked for uh or a lighter and I asked for a volunteer, and so I had them come up and I held the match like under his hand, and I said, I want you to hold your hand there as long as you can. And so he did, but not the best idea, by the way, guys. I don't recommend doing that. It was probably a stupid idea at the time, but I did it anyways, and um my point being is that we I think the world sees hell as you know, like we said, a bit of a party place, and it's not if you can't hold your hand over a lighter for more than five seconds without burning yourself. Imagine having your whole body thrown into that for eternity. Like hell is gonna be that and worse. Um separated from God, so there's gonna be no hope, there's gonna be no peace, right? You think the world is bad, man. Hell's gonna be a whole lot worse than that. And I don't think we think about that often enough, you know. You're actually here on earth, we still have the Holy Spirit. God is still guiding people in love and in truth, and there's still the presence of God on earth. In hell, that does not exist, and so there's going to be there's going to be torment and torture when we talk about hell. And uh I was reading something or heard something the other day, and and again, um guys, we're we're just learning, so everything we say may not be may not be 100% true, but that's why we're trying to read the Bible and and go base off of scripture. But um, we always think for me, I think of hell as being, you know, like I said, a lake of fire. And when you think of fire, you think of light. Um I heard it explained the other day though, as being like eternal darkness. You know, you're in in a lake of fire or burning sulfur, but eternal darkness and separated from God and the torment, and yeah, it's a it's a horrible place. Um, and this kind of leads us into our our next point.

Craig 28:59

Can can I say something? Yes, absolutely. I so one of the guys, I don't know if you got a chance to watch that Hellgate episode. I did not know. I um wish I would have, but I did not. So one of the guys talked about that, and he was like, if it's a lake of fire and they're saying it's gonna be darkness, like no presence of light, fire gives off, like in our perception, fire gives off light. Well, look, I mean if you're watching on YouTube, look behind me, there's fire there behind me. That's giving off light. Um, but oh hello.

Colton 29:42

Oh, I don't know. You froze up for a little while there. Yeah, back there, kinda. Okay, what is the last thing you said? Uh you kind of you had just started talking and it cut out, so I didn't get to hear a whole lot of what you were saying there.

SPEAKER_05 30:00

Oh no, of course.

Craig 30:04

Uh okay. So I was saying in that uh Hellgate episode that Kurt Cameron did, that round table, there was a guy that mentioned the uh the flame giving off light. He's like, in our perception in the world, the flame gives off light, fire gives off light. I was like, oh yeah, that's true. Um but then I got thinking. I was like, if you have like a butane torch or something like that, and if you look at the base of that flame, that's in it's invisible, right? Like, and that is the hottest part of the flame. If I'm remembering that right. So if you think um maybe I should look it up.

SPEAKER_05 30:56

But uh that's an interesting point, actually.

Craig 31:24

Okay, so if I Google that, is invisible fire the hottest? Um it says invisible or near invisible flames, often called blue, are among the hottest because they indicate complete combustion and the absence of glowing, unburnt soot particles. Um so while red orange flame are cooler, 600 to 800 degrees Celsius, blue fame, blue flames are hotter, 1400 to 1650 degrees Celsius. Wow. Um invisible or blue flame, which doesn't give off as much light, is the hottest flame. So I thought of that when that guy was saying it, and I was like, I wish I could just say that to you because no one else is saying it.

Colton 32:18

But yeah, man, that's uh that's a good point. That's a really good point.

Craig 32:24

I never thought about it that way. I don't know that come from the far reaches of my mind, science class, grade 10 or something. I have no idea.

Colton 32:32

But it's in there somewhere.

Craig 32:34

It's in there, it came to the forefront for that occasion, anyhow. Oh man, so something to think about. But yeah, you can go on to point two now that I've uh made made my invisible fire point.

Fire, Darkness, And Sulfur Imagery

Colton 32:47

Yeah, so that takes us into our next point. We were gonna do a bit of a comparison or talk about uh Hades and then talk about hell. Um, as our uh Anchorverse kind of talked about it a little bit, how Hades and Death give up um whoever is in them to be thrown into the lake of fire. So again, this is kind of maybe it may not be 100% accurate, but from what we've studied, um, it seems like Hades and Hell, there is a bit of a separation there between the two. So they do seem like there is a difference between Hades and between uh hell. And so one verse I wanted to read on this is Luke 16, 23 to 26. I don't know how many of you know the story of the rich man and Lazarus, uh, but they these couple verses are gonna come out of that story. So again, uh Luke 16, 23 to 26. And they say You know what?

Craig 33:52

What's that? I have I have that as well, but I said to read the whole passage. So just read from 19. Okay, okay. Let's do the whole thing.

Colton 34:02

If you don't mind not at all. Yeah. Uh okay. There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died, and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died, and he was buried. Now this is the part I found interesting here. twenty three. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, Father, Abraham, have pity on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire. I'll read the whole thing, then I'll talk about this, 'cause I'll never get it done if I don't. Yeah, do it. But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us. He answered, Then I beg you, Father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers, let him mourn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment. Abraham replied, They have Moses and the prophets, let them listen to them. No, Father Abraham, he said, But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. He said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced, even if someone rises from the dead.

Craig 35:52

I thought that, like where it ends there in thirty-one. I'm like, man, that is powerful.

Colton 36:01

It is, and I think that's often a verse that's overlooked in this passage. For me, it sure is.

Craig 36:06

Right? Like in studying, that's when I was like, I just light bulb. I'm like, whoa.

Colton 36:13

Oh, it's it's it's crazy. The amount of um information out of like just this passage in itself. There, there's so much a guy can look at here. Um, you know, the Bible talks about it um being easier for a rich man to go through the eye of a needle, the eye of a needle, I think, than it is for him to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Craig 36:40

It is easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven or something like that.

Colton 36:48

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. But it talks about the rich man and Lazarus here, right? So it's like the rich man had all his glory, and it makes me think of uh I don't know how many of you guys have seen the movie um oh man, my brain is not working today. Uh God's Not Dead. Yeah, that's the one. Okay, uh, this reminds me of the scene where the the wealthy, you know, guy with a perfect life is sitting down with his grandma who's got uh dementia, or his mom, I think. And uh and it's like she has a moment of clarity where God speaks through her to him, and she tells him, like, because he says, he's like, My life is perfect, I have everything. He's like, You lived a good life, you followed the rules, and look at you, you're sitting in a chair with dementia, and you don't even know who I am or can't remember anything. And then she has this moment of clarity from God where she's like, Sometimes the devil allows you to have a life of um you know, a pain-free life, a perfect life to keep you from going to God, and that's what this story reminds me of. Like the rich man has everything he needs in life, and then he passes away. And verse 23 says he's in Hades, so one thing I guess that didn't click until now is it says he was in Hades where he was in torment. Um, one thing I want to point out too is that Lazarus, or sorry, the rich man asks for Lazarus Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and put it on his tongue. Like, can you imagine him being in so much agony that all you want is just that one drop of water to cool you off? Yeah, just one drop. Like, isn't that crazy to think about? That's insane. Yeah.

Lake Of Fire: Final Judgment

Craig 38:46

Um, I have uh some comments here about uh the meaning of Hades and the meaning of torment in this passage. Sweet. Let's hear so Hades in the original Greek that John used when he was writing Revelation simply means the unseen realm of the dead. It corresponds to the Old Testament word Sheol. It is a temporary holding place prior to final judgment. Revelation 20 makes it clear that Hades is emptied and destroyed before the lake of fire, meaning it is not the final state. Um and so notes there I have for that Hades, temporary holding place of the dead, equivalent uh conceptually to Sheol in the Old Testament, um, and then realm of the dead prior to final judgment. And um in Hades, like in Hades being in torment, like it says uh the word used there. Uh hold on a second. Oh yeah, Hades, so yeah, okay. So this is I don't have red letters in my Bible. This is Jesus talking, right? Yes. Yes, okay. The word Jesus uses in Luke 16 for torment originally meant a stone used to test metal for purity. Over time it came to mean severe judicial suffering in the New Testament and consistently refers to conscious anguish. Uh so whatever imagery is being used in the story, the suffering itself is not symbolic, it is real, aware, and irreversible. If you think of um, if you're testing metal, like say you're testing a bar of gold for purity, you make that you scrape it on the stone, it's now damaged, um, but you know it's uh pure. So, but that torment is the like the act of the scraping. Um and and then the judicial suffering, uh the conscious anguish. So this pass passage shows conscious awareness, separation, and then anticipation of something final. Uh I guess I'll just finish. I only have a couple more things and then you can go into whatever else you don't have. Yeah, yeah, you bet. Um so scholars generally note that the image the imagery of or sorry, the image imagery may be figurative, but the suffering is real. And Francis Chan in Erasing Hell makes this point. Even if the fire is metaphorical, it points to something worse than literal fire, not something softer, like we talked about softening the idea of hell. Yeah. So um, we know that Revelation is uh a book of symbolism and a book of um like it's not it's not a lot of literal writing, it's a book of symbolism. So the symbolic language in Revelation and in parables actually intensifies the reality, I think, rather than minimizing it. So I thought that was a key thought there for that stuff.

Eternal Separation From God

Colton 42:48

Yeah, that that's an interesting point. One thing I was gonna say is uh it talks about Hades, but then you know, a couple verses, well, verse 24 says at the end of it, because I am in agony in this fire, so if he was thrown into Hades, like it sounds like there's fire in Hades too, you know. That's something I was thinking about, though, is for people who don't know God and they pass away. If Hades and Hell are different, and Hades is uh a holding place um until the final judgment, like I don't know, my heart breaks for people who who don't know God and who end up there. Like, can you imagine ending up in this place and you know being in torment, but finding out that it's about to get a lot worse for you yet? Like, I I don't know. I don't know. I just yeah, I feel bad for. For people who who end up there and my heart just breaks for them because it's like, man, you could have had it so much better. You know, I I don't know. Maybe that's just my personal feeling, but I just I hope for everybody to be able to go to heaven and uh that's not according to the Bible, I don't think that's the way it works.

Craig 44:28

So um it's not their uh uh what is that passage or that verse? Um like there are many, many, or there are many who will say to me, Lord, Lord, but I will tell them depart from me for I never know knew you. So there's people that I just I mean I am just I don't know if I'm just hyper-aware now at this point in my life, but you see all this um all the uh all the ex like it's acceptance in the name of love for people that outwardly sin against God and they are in the church, they are leading churches and you just see these like progressive, like quote unquote progressive Christians. Um that just makes me think of them, unfortunately. There's there's gonna be many that think that they're going that their their uh eternity is secure because they loved people and they accepted them how they were um and they didn't judge. So for those of you who are just listening, I'm doing airplanes every time I say those things. But um the the truth is real and if we don't accept it at face value, we are in the wrong. Like Francis Chan says, we need to let scripture speak for itself and not pull our ideologies in there and put them into scripture. That's where we go totally sideways. And you s and then you see, you know, I guess I'll just say it. You see these um, you know, gender uh how do I say it? Like the the LGTV churches, yeah. All the all the rainbow flags out front, and you see these, like you're seeing pastors come out as trans and they're being celebrated for it, and it's like, what are we doing? That's Satan at work saying that our like convincing us to say our sin is okay.

False Assurance And “I Never Knew You”

Colton 47:16

I think uh along those lines too, Craig, like I find that a lot of times we a lot of times we we understand that God is um forgiving and he forgives people and he's humble and he has mercy, but I think we take that I think we take that too far sometimes, and I think people sin based off of the fact that we're gonna be forgiven. Um but the Bible also talks a lot about that and how you know I mean you look at how people's hearts were turned cold in the old testament and and things like that, and um God, yeah, he's a loving, forgiving God, but he's a God of wrath too, and that should scare us as Christians. Like, if you think agreeing with um with the sins of the world is okay, then I'm I'm sorry, but you need to open your Bible and read it again. Whether you're a high up pastor, whether you're just somebody sitting in the pew, I don't really care who you are, but if if that's what you think, then yeah, you need to open your Bible and reread that because there's a big difference between loving and there's a big difference between accepting. And I think we can sometimes get that mixed up. Well, you know, the world looks at love as being accepting. That's not the case. You accept people who um who think that you know they want to be a different gender, or that they want to sleep around. You can love them without accepting what they're doing. Uh the world doesn't think so, but I'll tell you right now, it's possible, right?

Craig 49:20

You're right, and those those people may not feel loved when you tell them the truth. And even I have people in my life that I'm like, I love you, but I very much disagree with how you're living. And I can't have that around my family. I'm sorry. I love you, but I just like the same as God, He's not He is perfect, He is not gonna let sin into heaven, which I'm sure we'll talk about later as well. But there can be no sin in His presence in heaven, um, and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and that's what we need to recognize. So it's not just like us talking about the um I'm gonna try and be community standards compliant here, but the LGTV, the LGTV and the um transblender stuff and all that, it's not just that, it's just that is just what's prevalent in our world right now. Um, but it's any sin. It's um sleeping around, like Colton said. It's um pornography addictions, it's um being verbally or physically abusive to your spouse. It like all these things. Um and even like Jesus goes as far as to say that if you hate your brother, you've murdered him in your heart. So he raises the bar, and um, he doesn't lower it to accept you as you are, he'll accept you as you are, but he loves you too much to leave you where you are, he'll change you um if you give your life to him.

Colton 51:06

I want to speak on that point. I I heard a pastor talking once, and uh he had talked to this guy who came into the church, and and uh it sounded like the guy had become a Christian, and the guy, or I think he was thinking about it, and he said, Well, if I become a Christian, do I need to stop smoking weed? And the pastor said, Nope, no, you don't. And uh, you know, as Christians or or anybody, you kind of look at that and and think about it, it's kind of weird. It's like, well, if you become a Christian, yeah, you probably shouldn't be smoking weed. But he said, you know, you you're supposed to come to God as you are, but because of Jesus and his love, you should be changed. So after you become a Christian, God wants to work in your heart and transform you, and that's what we're trying to talk to people about and and teach people. It's not that we hate you for doing something that we don't agree with. Um, I've had this conversation when I was back in high school, and it made people very upset. I'm not uh I'm not a confrontational person, and I like at all. I don't I don't like arguments, I don't like fighting. I'd I try to stay away from that stuff. And I had this conversation with this one girl in in high school, and um we got talking about the same thing, about gays and lesbians. It was in our school and stuff, and I told her, I said, I I love those people, but I just disagree with what they're doing. And she got very upset, she got up and walked out, and it's like you know, part of the problem is the world doesn't want to hear it, right? It doesn't matter how much you speak out of love. I mean, look what they did to Jesus. Jesus spoke a lot of love, and people hated him for it. You know, same thing's gonna happen to us. People are gonna hate us. It doesn't matter how much love you have in your heart to speak to them about what we what we believe and what's right and what's wrong. Um, there's gonna be people who disagree with that because that's just kind of the way the world is going right now. Um, as sad as it is, but yeah, that's that's the way things are turning out.

Craig 53:12

Um yeah, I'd rather someone I'd rather someone hate me for telling them the truth than love me for lying to them. 100%.

God’s Love, Justice, And Truth

Colton 53:20

100%. But like I say, the the world doesn't know the difference between love and um agreeing with something, right? I kind of was thinking about it too, though, with this uh this thing that happened in in Tumblr Ridge, this um school shooting and stuff. Um it sounded like the shooter was transgender as well. And yeah, you know, I think those people are are hurting people, and they don't they don't need somebody to agree with what they're doing, like those people need help, and people who are accepting that they're doing this, I think are people who need to, and I I say this with all respect, but people who are accepting of somebody who wants to change gender, I don't think you know what you're accepting. Like I don't think you know in the slightest, because you're you're accepting somebody who's hurting, somebody who's in pain, somebody who is searching for something, and you're accepting the hurt, you're accepting the search, you're accepting um somebody's unhappiness and somebody's life who it could be so much better, but to accept that is I don't know, telling them that it's okay to to feel like this when you know I don't everybody has feelings, and we all we're not perfect, but I don't know. In my opinion, accepting something like that is is wrong. And uh in that situation, I think we're kind of supporting um the wrong direction.

Craig 55:18

I think unfortunately, like again, the the trans stuff is just what's in the news and what's prevalent right now, but yeah, um like supporting someone with addiction or like instead of getting them help help feeding like I don't know, it's kind of hard because you want to try and help take care of them. But I know situations where um parents have enabled children to the point where they're not a functioning part of society, they can't function on their own, and they're they're addicted to the drugs and the alcohol, they don't have an actual job where they support themselves, they get given money and they use that money to feed their addiction, and they always have a place to stay because their parents quote unquote love them and give them that, give them the money, give them the place to stay. Yeah, um, I mean, this is something we could probably talk about another time, but if you think about the par the uh prodigal son, right? Yeah, he took his inheritance early, he went and squandered it, he went, he was a drunkard, he ended up in the pig pen with pigs, and um he had to get to that low point to realize oh my father is good and I have squandered what he has given me, and uh I and then he goes back and he would have he'd be happy to just be a servant, not even just his son. Like just give me a place to stay, I'll work for my money, I'll work for my um, you know, for like I'll pay my not pay my way, but like I will I will serve you so that I'm taken care of kind of thing. Yeah. Um so I think there's some truth to that as well. Like there has to be some hard hard love that happens as well. Uh and if you think about disciplining your children, if you um if you spank them or whatever, they're not gonna feel like that's loving, right? I mean, don't beat the brakes off of them, that's wrong. But you know, give them a good swat sometimes, sometimes they need it. And and uh they just they're not gonna feel like you love them, but um I think they'll appreciate it later.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

Yeah, as long as you do it out of love, right?

Craig 57:54

So do it out of love, yes, do not. Um like always, every time I have a conversation with a child afterwards, and I'm like, I do not like doing that. That hurts me as much as it hurts you or more. And um, I just I need you to obey and listen to me, otherwise there are consequences. Yeah, so then you give them a hug and and uh it's kind of all good. There's still tears, but yeah, sometimes the tears are dads, sometimes the tears are the kids, sometimes it's the nature of both.

Colton 58:35

Yeah, I get that. Uh yeah, guys, the reason we talked about this, like I say, uh, you know, I know this episode is about hell, but this all has to do with it, right? Just uh living a life to help um guide others to Jesus Christ and away from the world, and the world's voice is getting louder and louder, and it seems like the voice of of um God is not getting quieter, but it's being I don't know if I'd go as far to say ignored, suppressed.

Craig 59:08

Suppressed, I think.

Romans 1 And Being Given Over

Colton 59:09

I think that's a good word, yeah. I think it's being suppressed more and more, and so that's that's why we bring that up, guys. Is this uh a life and death matter, it really is. You know, you got one chance to make it right with God before you die, and and that's why we're talking about some of this. Um back on the topic of hell. I was going to share uh Matthew 5, verse 22 here as well. But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, uh Rakka is answerable to the court, and anyone who says you fool will be in danger of the fire of hell. So it speaks of the again, the fire of hell. Uh Mark 9, verse 43 talks about the fire never going out in hell, so it's an eternal fire, it never ends. Um, you know, it's pretty hard as a human to wrap your brain around eternity. But again, Francis Chan has uh a sermon he speaks on on this that I absolutely love, and I go to this one every time. And I think I've explained it in here before, but he's got a rope, and the rope is you know hundreds of feet long, but the first about four inches is red. And he says, we always focus on this little part, but we have all of this after to worry about, but we're always focused on this little red part. Like at this point, you know, I hope to have a new house and a new car. At this point, I'd like to retire. It's like you have this short little section, but man, you have all of this, and what you do in this life here matters because it determines what your rewards are gonna be when you get to heaven, right? It's gonna determine whether you get to heaven or not, not your works, but how you believe and how you follow the will of God in this little section that you've been given. Um, and so it's important if you want to avoid an eternal fire and and hell for eternity, um, yeah, then you need to know God and you need to know Jesus and accept Him as your Lord and Savior. Um Peter 3 10. This is another one I wanted to talk about. I don't know that I've I'm not super familiar with this one, but I came across it and uh it is very interesting what it has to say once I find it here. Craig and I have been trying this thing, not having uh markers in our Bible, so we kind of learn the Bible a bit better. It's worked great, uh but yeah, it still takes a bit of time to find our passages sometimes.

Craig 1:01:57

I was gonna say it's even helped me like with with us doing this and having to kind of on the fly find where things are at. I mean, sometimes I cheat a little bit if I know where we're going next and you're talking, then I'll kind of put my finger in the right places so I'm a little quicker. But um it's even helped me in church, like if I'm listening to the sermon, and then then sometimes um the pastor will be like, like, okay, this is the reference, and then he's got his finger there already. He flips, he reads it, and then he's like, Okay, on to the next one. I'm like, I haven't even got to the first.

Colton 1:02:34

Oh, I get that. It's like, oh wait, so I've gotten a little quicker, yeah. But it's really cool how that's worked. Yeah. Uh okay, 2 Peter 3, verse 10. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, the heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. Right. So again, it talks about um yeah, about the elements being destroyed by fire and the lart the earth, but yeah, that's right. The earth and everything in it laid bare. So it's an interesting thought because it's not not necessarily talking about hell, but what we know to be life right now, one day is gonna be non-existent. And all that's gonna exist is again heaven or hell, and uh we can't we can't stress this enough uh for us. You know, it's a work in progress every day. For me, I'll tell you right now, the last while I've failed at trying to um build a proper relationship with God, but it is so important that we try to do this, whether you're Christian or not, Craig and I would both encourage you to dig into your Bibles. Um pray to God, spend some time with Him, and make it a priority because that little section, I'm holding my fingers up for those of you who don't watch the YouTube, but that little four-inch section of red rope, guys, is only four inches long. You have an eternity that comes after that. So please, we ask you with all of our hearts, please consider this and uh and just think about what that means, you know, what your eternity means and what it means to um possibly make the most important decision of your life um when it comes to this.

Craig 1:04:50

Exactly. Yeah. I was gonna make a joke about your four inches. I don't know if I'll leave it in here, but I was gonna say. So for those guys, those of you guys that are a little bit more insecure, four inches is a good amount. It's a good amount. Oh man. Hey, you can do a lot with that four inch. Oh yikes.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:27

Oh man.

Colton 1:05:28

Oh well, I've heard it said it's not about that, it's about the motion of the ocean. Oh boy, we are getting very off track.

The Narrow Way And Urgent Appeals

Craig 1:05:43

Speaking of oceans um and bodies of water, how about Lake of Fire? Let's go there. Oh, you like that segue. Very nice. Okay. Uh is that all you had? Uh, for that one, yeah. Yeah, yeah, for that. Um okay so what I had for Lake of Fire, I just stuck to Revelation. I'm glad you went in different places. Um, I'm glad you pulled from uh different scripture there, but uh Revelation 20, 14 uh says then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, um, the lake of fire. And then 15 says it as well. And if anyone's name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Um and then 2010 says, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur. Uh oh, sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. And I highlighted that forever and ever part. So the key distinctions, I think. Um so Hades gets emptied, the lake of fire is final, um, it is post-judgment, and it is eternal with that forever and ever is what I would deduce. Um Francis Chan in his book emphasizes that the language forever and ever cannot easily be reduced to temporary. It's kind of hard to think. Like if those words are in there forever and ever, what does that mean? Um, anyway, again, I have a note. We'll talk about annihilationism and eternal conscious torment later.

Colton 1:08:04

I even like bowled it under I was gonna say something real really fast. When you're talking about the lake of fire, so while we were doing while I was uh researching for this episode, my question came up about why does it talk about the lake of ugly my English is so bad today. What is going on? Okay. The lake of burning sulfur. Okay, so I just I just looked it up on Google. Like I I uh I just asked if sulfur was really hot when it's burning. Now, to your point of it being darkness, listen to this. This is interesting. Um, says yes, sulfur becomes very hot when it burns, it ignites at temperatures between 160 and 232 degrees Celsius, and during combustion, it produces a distinct, often hard to see pale blue flame that generates significant heat. Says it's often hard to see that that is very interesting. Yeah, because I always wondered like, why does the Bible refer to it as a lake of burning sulfur? Like, why wouldn't it be like a lake of burning firewood or something, you know? Yeah, I was kind of curious. I mean, I don't want to make light of of hell and what it is, but it was a question that I kind of honestly had is why why sulfur? Like, why yeah?

Craig 1:09:38

No, that's good. I'm sure there'll be other people that think the same thing because I hadn't thought about that. But then when you ask that, I'm like, yeah, good question. Yeah, it's interesting, right? I don't know. Yeah. Cool. That's uh that's all I have for the lake of fire.

Colton 1:09:58

Okay. Do you want me to start on the next one a little bit? I don't think I have. I don't think I have a lot. Yeah, the rest of I don't have a lot for the rest of it, but you want okay.

Craig 1:10:20

I do have one, two, three scripture references for point three. Okay, I have I have two. Okay, so about the same.

Colton 1:10:43

So you want me to start with mine and then do yours and then into the conclusion?

SPEAKER_06 1:10:51

Sure.

Annihilationism Vs Eternal Torment

Craig 1:10:52

Yeah, I'll uh well if you start, if you do yours, and then I do mine, and then I will talk about the annihilationism versus eternal conscious torment that I have after this. Okay, sure.

Colton 1:11:05

Sounds good. If you want to do that, all right. So uh on to our third point we want to make with this. Uh hell is eternal separation from God. So, like we talked about earlier, um, on this earth we still have the Holy Spirit. We have God who is present with us, um, or the Holy Spirit is present with us. Hell is going to be eternally separated from God, from the Holy Spirit, from Jesus Christ. They will not be present there, they will exist in heaven with the children of God and uh those who follow Jesus Christ. And so this verse that I would like to read for you guys is Matthew 7, 25, and it says The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. I find that interesting. Um I think it's talking more about like the heading is the wise and foolish builders, right? And so again, we actually spoke on this in youth group on Tuesday, but the wise builder builds his house on the rocks. So when the storms of life hit, he can stand firm. He doesn't rely in his finances, he doesn't rely in his you know popularity, he doesn't rely in the things of the world to pick him up and give him hope. And so when the storms of life hit, he's got something solid to stand on, right? If you stand on um Jesus Christ and what he did for us, and you have a firm faith and a firm foundation in Jesus Christ, then you can withstand the storms of life. Now, if you're like the builder that builds his house on the sand, right, you rely on or put your hope in your finances. Like I said, you put your hope in uh the things you have or your job or relationships or people. Um, when the storms of life hit your house, uh they're gonna knock you down because you do not have a firm foundation. Jesus Christ is the only firm foundation in this life that we can have. It doesn't matter what else you build your life on. Jesus Christ is the only firm foundation that you can have. And it is so important that we base our life and build our life off of him and find hope uh in him. Um you know, whether we're facing storms or not. It is important to have a relationship with him. Um, not only that, but you'll find um you'll actually be more joyful, you'll have more peace, and your life will just simply just be better, simply put.

Craig 1:14:06

Um it's not to say that you won't face trials or troubles, but it is to say that you can endure them, I think.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:23

Yeah.

Craig 1:14:24

Um there's a peace beyond understanding, which the Bible talks about. Uh so it's not like like that meme I shared earlier. You're gonna suffer and you're gonna like it, or you're gonna suffer and you're gonna be happy, or something like that. Um, so it's like, yeah, we suffer day to day, but we have a hope um in Christ and in our eternal salvation through Him. Um and that just it just makes everything better, no matter what you're going through. Um I know just thinking about our uh trip to Africa, though I saw some of the poorest people that you you'd know. No money, not like nothing. They have nothing. They literally live in dirt houses. Yeah, and um they were some of the most joyful people I have ever met. It was it was it on to you now. What's going on? Yeah, I'm speaking, I'm speaking in tongues. Um uh it was something to witness, like um I don't know if if you guys haven't been on a mission trip like that before, I'd encourage you to to do that if you're able um because it is something else. But um yeah, our our joy is in him. So uh I don't know where else I was going with that, but I think that was that was the comments I had for what you said.

Why The Cross And Why It’s Personal

Colton 1:16:05

Yeah, well, one thing I want to touch on too is um the Bible also talks about those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of heaven. Um right, so in the Bible it also talks about if if you don't know God, because I think I believe that we're all going to well, I know we're all gonna be judged. And so some of us, like you had mentioned earlier, Craig, not everybody who says, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. And for the people who don't enter the kingdom of heaven, God is gonna say, or Jesus is gonna say, Um, depart from me, I I never knew you. And uh, yeah, it just takes the words right out of your mouth if you sit, if you just sit and think about that for a second, like what do you say to that? You know, the the creator of the whole universe, when you come face to face with him and you realize at that point that he is real, and that Christians on earth, you know, maybe weren't quite so crazy as you thought they were. But when that moment comes and like you realize that Jesus is real and that his love is real, but in that moment, he also tells you, depart from me, I never knew you. Like, can you imagine just the heaviness of your heart in that moment?

Craig 1:17:50

Especially thinking you had it all figured out. That's concerning.

Colton 1:17:56

It is, it really is. Yeah, and I don't think people think about that enough, right? We're we're in a no, we're in a time when it's all about self-pleasure, your body, your choice, and your money, your choice. Do whatever you want. If it feels good, then it's probably good for you. And it's like, man, this is the world has got it so twisted and so backwards. You wonder why there's so many hurting people. It's because we're not based off of the truth anymore. The world gives you one truth, but they're all lies because the devil wants to feed that into your mind. And it's just, I don't know, it's just frustrating. It is so frustrating that that is the way it is. But uh, you know, the Bible says the world isn't gonna get better, it's it's gonna get worse, which maybe that's a good thing for Christians because it makes it a lot easier to shine the light of Christ, then I guess that's one way to look at it. Um that's true, and then there you go again. Second, Thessalonians, uh one verse nine. Let me see. This one I might have a bit of a hard time finding.

Craig 1:19:17

I have it because it's the first one I was gonna do. Oh, you do.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:22

Oh man.

Craig 1:19:23

Do you want me to read it? Yeah, if you could. Okay. Um they will suffer the punishment. Uh hold on. They'll suffer the punishment punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. So, what do you think about like just as a question?

Colton 1:19:47

What do you think about when it says they'll be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord, but this part here, and from the glory of his might? Shut out from the presence of the glory of his might, from the glory of his might. Like I I kind of that last part is what got me. It's like if you're shut out from the glory of his might, like, does that mean like I don't know where to go with that one? Like, does that mean that again you're you're just separated from from the strength of God?

Invitation, Prayer, And What’s Next

Craig 1:20:30

Like, you don't have that protection over you anymore, or you don't have yeah, the the greatness of God, maybe like we think of might, like um uh let me just look up the meaning of might.

Colton 1:20:50

Yeah, it just kind of raised a question in my mind like what does that mean to be separated from the glory of the might of God?

Craig 1:21:06

Oh, that's not the right one. A minute arachnid. No, not like a spider mite or a dust mite.

Colton 1:21:17

Uh I mean it does reference Oh, I spelt it wrong, that's why. One second. It does reference being separated from being shut out. Yeah, so it doesn't even say separate, it says in my in my Bible, it says shut out from the presence of the Lord. So like that to me, I just get a picture of like the doors being shut, like you're shut out from the presence of God. That seems like strong language. Yeah. And this too. I never dug into it this this much, but they will be punished with everlasting destruction.

Craig 1:22:19

Okay, so uh I Googled God's might. And it said God's might signifies his absolute, supernatural, and overwhelming power, strength, and authority over all creation.

Colton 1:22:34

So I guess you remove that, there yeah, there would be no authority of God.

Craig 1:22:40

Yeah, any yeah, so any restraint he has put on the devil has been withdrawn, and now now you're just I don't know, food for the wolves.

Colton 1:22:58

That's an even scarier thought.

Craig 1:23:04

Yeah. Um I so I did also have writ written down that I never knew you. Uh so actually, if we it's right above what you read earlier. I think you read Matthew 7, 25.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:24

Uh 25.

Craig 1:23:26

I think it's 25. Okay. So it's um so the I never knew you uh section is 21 to 23. Um, so it says, Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you, depart from me, you workers of lawlessness. So that's pretty strong language as well, you workers of lawlessness. When they're saying, Didn't we do all these things in your name, all these great things? And I think if you think about like the um say the religious leaders of Jesus' time, the Pharisees and things like that. I I get a picture of them in my mind when I read that. Like they're kind of saying they're like, look at me, didn't look at I did all these things in your name. And it's more of a prideful thing than a um like they're saying in your name, but it's like, look what I did, yeah. Kind of thing. It's kind of the visual I get. Um so then, well, like God called them a brood of vipers, right? Jesus called them a brood of vipers.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:06

Yeah.

Craig 1:25:07

So so he's like, depart from me, I never knew you. Like you never had a relationship with me. You just said you did all these things in my name.

Colton 1:25:15

Because they were more about the works and the rules, were they not about following the rules that Moses had laid out who were given to them by God?

Craig 1:25:26

Yeah, right. And so like it says, do we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, do many mighty works in your name? Right? Mighty works. So even 'cause I think even even Satan technically can cast out demons, right? I don't know. But so uh all that to say hell is not merely fire imagery, but it's it's a relational exile from God, which is the worst part. Never mind the fire and the like the lake of fire and the burning sulfur. It's a relational exile from the one who made you and designed you to have a relationship with him. So um uh in Francis Chan's book, uh he stresses that God is the source of all goodness. If someone eternally rejects him, uh hell is the ultimate honoring of that decision if you think about it. Separation is both judicial and relational. Uh Romans one get there. Uh Romans chapter one, verse twenty-four to twenty-six. Therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Um twenty-six says, For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions, for their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing. shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. Um so that talks about God giving people over to their sins, right? So I think hell can be understood as um as that principle made eternal. So God is eternally giving these people over to their sinful desires and they are receiving the just consequence for their actions.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:43

That just that does oh man that sounds horrible it does.

Colton 1:28:52

That's something you know even on I don't know even as a Christian some of the sins that we go through they seem to just eat away at us you know and I I just I couldn't imagine not having God by my side to like navigate through that sin but to just be yeah like you said being given over to your sin. Like what does that tell you your your sin is going to control you for eternity then doesn't matter how hard you fight it's no point because God's gone if you're yeah if you don't have a relationship with him he's not gonna be there to to help you fight um those temptations or that evil yeah kind of crazy to think about it's really hard to think about like what I find hard is just thinking about people you know that and I mean it's not we're not the judge we don't know where they end up right but just to think about even people we've encountered or people we've come across who uh who don't know God you know I I came I think I've told this story before too I probably have a lot of repeat stories but this one here a guy I'll make it quick but a guy had a pacemaker I was selling insurance at the time and we were door knocking guy answers the door and kind of said oh yeah no I I'm not gonna be around long enough for insurance or whatever that you know that kind of stuff and you know I kind of just had like I don't know if I'd explain it like uh I think God just kind of pointed it out to me that I needed to sort of change what I was talking about. You know this wasn't uh this wasn't a work call anymore this was this was an eternity call and so I kind of opened up to him a little bit and and we got to talking and I asked him what he believed or or if he had faith in Jesus Christ and he said no I'm uh an atheist and I'm like oh man just uh to talk with somebody who straight up said that and no he's passing away it's like oh man like what are you doing you don't have much time left you you need like I'm not even I don't just want to recommend it like you need Jesus right now and so anyways the conversation kind of went on and I asked him why he was an atheist and basically his reason was because well how can a God if he loves us allow things like um like rape like murder how can he allow things to happen to children that he does and it's like I don't that's because of our sin you know it's because of our sinful nature that those things happen. I guess where I was going with the story though is that for me and I've never had this happen before but just looking into the face of this guy realizing that he's an atheist and thinking about eternity it's I don't know I don't even know how to explain it you know you just know that their faith is not set in heaven with Jesus you know their eternity isn't set in heaven with Jesus and that's that's not a good feeling um knowing that but like what do you uh what do you do about that how do you change that because not everybody's gonna listen to what we say as Christians either you know and yeah I I don't know it's uh creates a lot of questions and a lot of I don't know just a lot of thought and it's not always easy to know how to how to move on from that I guess or how to how to react properly in a situation like that yeah I think um as believers we should feel that way um even though there's nothing we can personally do about that situation um because we're supposed to love people like God loves people and his will is that none should perish so for us to have um God's love in our heart through the Holy Spirit that that's our longing as well we don't want anyone to perish either and sometimes it's like oh come on please like just please just consider this and like you are wrong and you're gonna find out and that saddens me that you didn't take the steps to correct it.

Craig 1:34:39

But yeah broad is the path that leads to destruction and narrow the path that leads to righteousness so um there's gonna be a lot more people I think that are consumed by the lake of fire and spend eternity in hell than there are that spend eternity in heaven with God.

Colton 1:35:05

So all we can do is um share the love of Christ with people share the gospel with them and pray that somehow their hearts would be softened and that um that they would get another chance and uh I think um I'll do a little bit of uh um a cult a response at the end here as well but I I've heard it said before too like I've seen some street preachers and stuff like that um they kind of ask people like hey um like do you believe you're like I think they ask like oh are you a believer or like are you a Christian or something like that and like oh yeah I believe in God um and it's like a lot of people it's very surface level you can see it and and the guy says like okay well like like you think you're going to heaven then they're like oh yeah for sure like I've been a good person and all that kind of stuff and they're like okay well like when when you face God and have an account for what you've done and he says why why should I let you in here like what what's your response if God says why should I let you into heaven and they often they'll say well I've been a good person I didn't do anything wrong and um all that kind of stuff um but if you think about the thief on the cross and what his response would have been I feel like he would have been like I don't know you shouldn't um the only reason you should let me in is because the man on the middle cross said that I could come and I think I think that needs to be able to be our response and I'm gonna emotional I'm not sure why but um I think it's because we are undeserving and uh he is the only reason Jesus says I'm the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but by me so that has to be our answer you know that's uh that's a question that's eaten away at me for a long time is like yeah what what is your answer if God asks you that when you get to heaven you know how do you how do you answer that other than I I don't belong here but it's because of you know yeah you should uh on my own accord you shouldn't let me in I like I don't belong here but yeah the good news is um Jesus died so that we could belong and he wants us with him so um but before we wrap up I want to to talk about annihilationism versus eternal conscious torment and I'll kind of I have him typed out here a little bit just so make sure I don't miss anything so I'll kind of read off my screen um but I have some scripture to support both um positions and then I um I'll share with you guys what I personally believe and then Colton you can chime in and talk about it too if you want if you have some ideas but uh so um Christians in general land in two primary camps regarding final judgment which are annihilationism and eternal conscious torment so annihilationism sometimes called conditional immorality uh teaches or immortality not immorality sorry conditional immortality yeah the tears in my eyes from earlier I can't see now uh teaches that uh after final judgment the wicked are ultimately destroyed and cease to exist supporters point to passages like Matthew 1028 where Jesus says God can destroy both soul and body in hell and Romans 6 23 which says the wages of sin is death and for us um human finite minds death is the end right that you just cease to exist um they also reference verses such as 2 Thessalonians 1 9 which speaks of eternal destruction arguing that destruction and death most naturally imply the end of existence rather than ongoing conscious experience eternal conscious torment the historic majority view of the church teaches that the unrighteous will experience ongoing conscious punishment after judgment this view leans heavily on passages like Matthew twenty five forty six where Jesus contrasts eternal punishment with eternal life in the same sentence suggesting the duration is parallel if it also draws from Revelation 1411 which says the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day or night and Revelation 2010 which describes being tormented day and night forever and ever so personally I hold to eternal conscious torment not because it's emotional easy emotionally easier in fact I think the opposite I think it'd be easier to feel like okay the people that don't um give their life to the Lord and accept the gift of eternal life would just cease to exist.

Craig 1:42:12

So the reason I believe this is because language like forever and ever in Revelation 2010 no rest day or night Revelations 1411 and eternal punishment in Matthew 2546 is very difficult to reconcile with the idea of eventual and total extinction whatever words like death in Romans 623 and destruction in 2 Thessalonians 19 mean they seem to describe ruin and separation rather than non existence when placed alongside the kind of duration that kind of duration language that said both views aim to take scripture seriously the deeper issue isn't winning theological debate it's grappling honestly with the holiness of God and the seriousness of our sin and the urgency of the gospel which is the most important thing.

Colton 1:43:14

So I think yeah it doesn't matter I mean it it it kind of does matter because we're trying to talk about um hell and um I mean it's a secondary issue right we talked about this before we hit record um these conversations about heaven and hell are kind of secondary issues but it's also um it's something that I don't think gets talked about very much um which I think is why there's this whole right now with Kirk Cameron having that conversation with his son with the annihilationism versus um eternal conscious torment they're kind of wrestling through that themselves and they're trying to figure out where they stand and what scripture says and so from what I see what scripture says um I mean I've told you that I think it's eternal conscious torment Kirk Cameron thinks the other way so I mean there's there's great theological uh leaders uh in the Christian community that are in both camps so um and I think whatever you believe on either side if you um have given your life to Christ and you are a follower of him you've died to yourself um confess Jesus is Lord you um you know you're saved so that I I think eternally it doesn't matter what view you have here um just the hope and the prayer would be that you don't find out personally yeah right um yeah so uh to put a bow on everything here um like you said golden hell was not made for humans um Matthew 2541 says defart defart uh depart from me you cursed uh uh into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels uh that's not funny anyway uh originally prepared for the devil and fallen angels uh revelation 2010 shows the devil's final destruction in the lake of fire um but revelation 2015 shows anyone not in the book of life joins that same fate um um so chan's key warning in erasing hell we cannot erase hell without erasing the seriousness of sin justice and ultimately the cross because if hell is not real or not eternal why did Christ endure the wrath of God on the cross Romans 5 9 says we shall be saved by him from the wrath of God him being Christ Jesus yeah so I don't know if you have any closing comments before I uh share a call to response yeah I don't really know what else there is to say I mean I just hope that this you know that this is something you guys needed to hear I hope that this reaches somebody who needs to hear it you know um I I realize there's a lot of hurting people in the world and I realize that we as Christians often drop the ball on on acting Christlike and uh you know we're all human too we we sin and we will never be perfect but our our hope is that one day we can be with everybody who's listening everybody who is in our life everybody that we come into contact with every day our hope is that we can be with you in heaven um when when our time comes to leave the world and uh yeah when Jesus comes back for his children I hope that um that you guys are going to be a part of that with us too yeah I second that so um yeah all that being said wherever you land on that debate annihilationism or eternal conscious torment um here's something that we can't escape Jesus spoke about judgment because he loves people not because he enjoys scaring them even though we've discussed that it is scary to think about power uh you know the wrath of God being poured out uh in eternal punishment for those that don't know him but uh yeah Revelation 20 says there's a real moment coming where um the book will be opened and names are either written in the book of life or they're not Revelation 20 uh 12 uh to 15 is where that's found um so in that time of judgment that's the moment where we will find out where we will spend eternity and um I just want to share this as a brother not as someone trying to win an argument or trying to put anyone down or anything like that.

Craig 1:49:11

But if this is true if passages like Matthew 2546 talk about eternal punishment the same way that they talk about eternal life if Revelation 1411 says there is no rest day or night if Revelation 2010 says forever and ever um yes this is uh theology it's theological but it's also very personal like we talked about there's the relational separation from God. So the part that matters the most is that the same Bible this one if you're watching that's my um the same Bible that talks about judgment Also talks about rescue and redemption. Romans 5 9 says we are saved from the wrath of God through Jesus. John 3 16, many of you listening know this by heart, but it says anyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Romans 10 9 says, if you confess Jesus as Lord and believe in his resurrection, you will be saved. That's an invitation that is open for you to accept if you haven't already. Hell wasn't prepared for us, like Colton mentioned, Matthew 25, 41. It was prepared for the devil and his angels. Are you in the con eternal conscious torment camp? That's not the primary issue. The primary issue is have you responded to Jesus? Have you given your life to him? This has been a heavy episode, and uh there's a lot in here that we've talked about. Um some things for you to kind of chew on. Um if you have not given your life to the Lord yet, then I strongly consider or strongly encourage you to consider it. Um and that's how you do it, is uh confess that he's the that Jesus is Lord and believe that he's raised from the dead. So um yeah, I guess with that I uh we can probably close in prayer if you want, Colton. Unless you have anything else to say.

Colton 1:52:17

No, I think uh I think I am good there.

Craig 1:52:22

Okay, sounds good. Yeah, if you don't mind, uh close us out. Um pray for the people. You betcha.

Colton 1:52:32

Father, we want to come to you today, Lord, just understanding that that we are sinners, Lord, understanding that we are so undeserving of all that you've done for us. Um Jesus dying on the cross, Lord, giving us a way to spend eternity with you in heaven, Lord. And um, you know, right now that might be a hard thing to understand, Lord, but we are so grateful and so thankful uh for your love in that we can be called children of God, that we can have our eternity with you in heaven, Lord, and and that we can be saved by the blood of Jesus, Lord, um, from your wrath. Lord, we pray for those around us, those uh watching us, those listening to the podcast, Father. We just pray that that you would touch their hearts, Lord, if they if they don't know you, even if they do know you, Lord, help us to to serve you, to seek you, Lord. Um we pray for the people who don't know you, Lord. I just ask that as Christians we would be bold in speaking the truth and speaking the love, that we would stand firm in the faith, Lord, and that we would do your will and not our own will, and that we would do it for your glory and not our glory. Father, I pray for peace for everyone listening, uh, for Craig and I both as we go from here, Lord. I pray that we wouldn't just speak about these things and move on, Lord, but I pray that we would just press them into our hearts, that we would apply these to our life, and that we would think about this next time we come into contact with somebody who uh you know maybe claims to not be a Christian or someone who's proud of that. I just pray, Holy Spirit, you would speak through us and use us in a way to um just bring those people uh out of the darkness, Lord, and and into your light. Father, I thank you for the blessing of of Craig and uh and all the work he's done on this podcast as uh he puts a lot of effort into this. And so I just thank you for for him and the work he's putting in, and I thank you for the blessing of this podcast, Lord, and just that we can do this together, and I pray that we would grow closer to you in this and that you would use this as a platform, Lord. Use us to um reach people who you need to reach, Lord, and again, not for our glory, but help us to be humble and to give the glory to you through this. We just pray for uh a good evening now and um help us to all just have a good end to our week and uh a good weekend as we're coming into spring here too. Pray these things in Jesus' name, amen. Amen.

Craig 1:55:49

Thank you. No problem. Um yeah, if you guys uh if you're listening and uh these this has made you think about where you'll spend eternity um and you do want to make that commitment, give your life to the Lord, accept that gift of eternal life, and you're just not sure where to start, um, you can go ahead and reach out to us. Um you can reach us on um on Facebook and uh I mean ultimately stick a comment on YouTube if you have to, or like um there is always that text us option as well that will come straight to my phone or Colton's phone through through the podcast app there. Um so we're trying to make it as easy as possible for you guys to contact us. But um, if you can't get a hold of us, or if you don't want to talk to us, if you're not comfortable with that, um just find someone in your life that um that you know for sure is uh Bible-believing Christian. Um I was thinking find a pastor, but you gotta be careful what church you find a pastor from as well. So yeah. Um yeah, ultimately uh it's it's pretty simple. It's confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, believing um that he is God's Son, and that he was raised from the dead. Um that's that's kind of it. Just ask him to forgive you, and that you want to continue you want to move forward living your life for him. And uh if you've done that today, we rejoice with you. Uh welcome to the brotherhood.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:44

Yes.

Craig 1:57:46

Um yeah, the the Bible says the angels in heaven rejoice over one um I forget how that goes, over one sinner who repents or something like that. But yeah, so we rejoice with the angels if you've done that today. Um uh aside from that, there was something else I was gonna say, and I forget. Oh, next episode. Um I know talking, digging into the nitty-gritty about heaven and hell is probably gonna raise some questions for you guys. So, next episode, we're gonna talk about how you can be sure um about your salvation. Uh, because I know early on in my faith journey I struggled with that. I was like, was my real? Um, have I a false convert? Like, uh, you know, the devil, the devil gets in your ear, and he just like you did with Eve, tells you lies. So anyway, we'll talk about that next time. Um, I was gonna say next week, but I don't know, it might be another two-week wait for the next episode. But yeah, this is a bit of a longer one again, so appreciate you guys listening. And uh thank you, Colt, sticking it out. I know you want to get up early. That's all good for something like this. It is worth it. Uh yeah, yeah, that's right. All right. Um, yeah, love you guys. Thanks for listening. Um, we'll catch you next time. Thanks, guys. Have a good night.