10. Therapy for Christian Women with Michelle Coyle

Therapy for Christian Women: Navigating Faith and Trauma with Christian Counselor Michelle Coyle

Join Bethany as she chats with Michelle Coyle, a licensed professional counselor specializing in EMDR treatment for Christian women. In this episode, they discuss Michelle's journey into therapy, her work with Christian women dealing with trauma, religious abuse, and self-esteem issues, and how she integrates faith into her practice. They explore common themes in Michelle's therapy sessions, how faith and psychology can work together, and tools like prayer and medication for healing. Michelle shares her approach to intensive therapy and the importance of kindness, boundaries, and empowering clients to take control of their mental health.

To learn more about Michelle:

Emdrpittsburgh.com

Mental Health for Christian Women Podcast

Instagram

Things we talked about:

How We Love By Milan and Kay Yerkovich

Holy Disruptor by Amy Duggar King

Monte Mader Instagram

To learn more about Bethany Valenti, PsyD:

www.bethanyvalenti.com

Say Hello to Your Therapist Instagram

Bethany's Instagram

Bethany's Facebook

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast
01:48 Meet Michelle Coyle: Journey to Becoming a Therapist
03:33 Specializing in Christian Counseling
07:36 Addressing Church Hurt and Abuse
11:22 Empowering Christian Women
29:57 Balancing Science and Spirituality
31:33 The Intersection of Psychology and Faith
32:34 Therapists' Views on Spirituality in Therapy
34:00 Challenges in Integrating Faith and Therapy
35:05 Personal Experiences with Faith and Mental Health
38:25 Tools and Techniques in Therapy
45:31 Incorporating Faith in EMDR Therapy
49:31 The Rise of Intensive Therapy Sessions
51:33 Wrap-Up and Final Thoughts

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to the Say Hello to your therapist podcast. I'm Dr. Bethany Valenti. join me as we say hello to Michelle Coyle, a licensed professional counselor who specializes in EMDR treatment with somatic and parts work for Christian women. this, includes things like trauma, religious abuse, parenting stressors, self-esteem issues, family disruptions, narcissistic or emotional abuse, or even career transitions. In this episode, we discuss her work with Christian women, including common themes that come up. How she may or may not incorporate faith into her work using EMDR as a Christian therapist. How to use tools like prayer and medication for support and healing and so much more. A quick note that I would like to add is that you will hear Michelle and myself talk about our own individual beliefs and experiences. You'll be able to tell that while we have similar beliefs and approaches, we do not use the exact language as the other as there is much diversity within religious practice and language. I believe in an individual's own spiritual journey and want you to know that if spirituality and your faith is something that you would like to have a part of your therapy experience, it is an option for you. Even if everything we touch on does not fully resonate. also a reminder that the opinions we express in this episode are our own and are not a substitute for mental or medical. Health advice from a practitioner with whom you have a relationship. Don't forget to check out the show notes to learn more about Michelle and the things we talked about. I hope you enjoy.

Bethany Valenti 1:48

Welcome Michelle.

Michelle Croyle 1:50

Hi Bethany.

Bethany Valenti 1:51

Hi. I'm so happy to have you here.

Michelle Croyle 1:53

Thanks.

Bethany Valenti 1:54

Can you share with us how you. Became a therapist. What brought you to that and

Michelle Croyle 2:00

Oh yeah. so I was in high school, on a band trip on the bus, and there was a boy behind me, who had some special needs, and he was talking to the guy next to me and said, you know what? She's a really good listener. And I was like.

Bethany Valenti 2:20

oh,

Michelle Croyle 2:21

that touches me so much that like he

Bethany Valenti 2:23

yeah.

Michelle Croyle 2:23

felt heard and listened to.

Bethany Valenti 2:25

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 2:26

that's been a core value of mine that I wanted people to be able to be listened to,

Bethany Valenti 2:30

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 2:31

not just, pushed past,

Bethany Valenti 2:34

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 2:34

when people don't really pay attention to people who are trying to say something, that's

Bethany Valenti 2:39

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 2:40

it grates on me. And when I got that compliment, I remember it's like, time stood still

Bethany Valenti 2:45

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 2:46

I can do that for somebody. 'cause he seemed really

Bethany Valenti 2:48

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 2:48

blessed and I was like, all right, this is a good thing. And then I kind of knew, I sat with another friend at a dance in high school and she was talking about some suicidal thoughts and such. And, we talked As far as I know, she's still all around. So,

Bethany Valenti 3:04

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 3:05

I don't mean that, that's just me, but I just felt like there was something in that sacred space

Bethany Valenti 3:09

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 3:10

just hearing people and helping them through their rough times,

Bethany Valenti 3:12

Yeah. it is sacred to share that and even if, like you said, you're not attributing whether or not she's here to you and that one experience alone, but being a part of someone's story is very cool. Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 3:29

they don't have to do life alone

Bethany Valenti 3:31

Yeah. I love that. How did you then move to your current specialty and where did you get connected to the idea of working within the realm of Christianity, for clients and then specifically women or did one come first?

Michelle Croyle 3:47

well, I became a Christian at five

Bethany Valenti 3:51

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 3:51

then I rededicated my life as a teenager and then, basically, went to Christian college and great educations, but, I've also been to. many different, churches and backgrounds and such, but I have some, narcissistic trauma in my background and, how it felt not to be heard.

Bethany Valenti 4:13

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 4:14

really important for people to be heard and, knowing what it felt like to be dismissed, feelings wise and needs wise.

Bethany Valenti 4:20

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 4:21

And I just wanted people to be seen. And so, along with that narcissistic stuff was also some church hurt and abuse,

Bethany Valenti 4:28

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 4:30

I was like, you know what? if other people are going through this same thing, I wanna be the voice of reason that represents Jesus well and practical and caring, and not let the people who are being poor examples, go and hurt everybody. a lot of times people come to me with, just real questions, real struggles with their faith, wanting, to get closer, to God in that. But a lot of times they, especially Christian women, feel like God's mad at them and or they're not doing good enough. They have to prove how good they are. I'm like, that is so not the point of salvation, right?

Bethany Valenti 5:11

Right.

Michelle Croyle 5:12

it on our own.

Bethany Valenti 5:13

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 5:14

that's where Jesus comes in. And when that happened, everything changed, like our healing. Already won.

Bethany Valenti 5:25

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 5:26

as long as, as if we believe in him and know he, he rose from the grave and he defeated sin and death and he is our savior, then you already have that power. 'cause the Bible says the same power that raised Jesus from the grave lives in you And so the thing that I try to do is in bridging the gap is to say, you're not powerless. If you're a Christian, you have the Holy Spirit in you. You can defeat death. Whether that is, spiritually, soul wise, mentally relationship wise, like you have power. And then that goes into the whole psychology concept of self-agency.

Bethany Valenti 6:01

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 6:02

you are not just this learned helplessness, victim in the corner that you can say. There are things that are right and there are things that are not right. And I will live my life according to a standard that says I do have, integrity and power, intentionality,

Bethany Valenti 6:19

Mm.

Michelle Croyle 6:19

can make good things happen and I don't have to believe lies, and I could just go on and on. I have a big soapbox inside

Bethany Valenti 6:25

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Michelle Croyle 6:27

me, you know,

Bethany Valenti 6:27

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 6:28

I hate it when people feel powerless when I'm like, you've got the greatest power inside you. Why would you believe you're powerless? And, yet I understand why they believe it. And so I'm kind of hoping to bridge the gap,

Bethany Valenti 6:41

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 6:43

just believing and praying for things to get better and

Bethany Valenti 6:45

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 6:46

actually like owning it and going, no. This is possible. It's already a gift. I have to step into it and I need to do the healing and the trauma recovery work and such. but to answer your question about women, just because honestly, when I started out, in private practice, I was with a group and I noticed that like very few men were in touch with their feelings,

Bethany Valenti 7:10

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 7:11

very few men actually did the homework. And that's not to put down men, but just the guys that were coming through for me. And I'm like, it's just much easier to talk to women. I just decided when I went on to my own, private practice that I

Bethany Valenti 7:25

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 7:26

because I feel like it's just speaking, you know, the same language without, a barrier of male female dialect,

Bethany Valenti 7:35

Okay. there was something that you said, and I was wondering how much you're running into this with your clients, similar to your own experience about history of harm within the church. Do you work or like their experience with their practice or what they've been taught. Does that come up a lot? 'cause I know, I mean, you were mentioning some things there about feeling powerless, but I'm also wondering is there a sense that they felt minimized, that they felt judged or they went to someone in the church? I have, I just, I'm full of questions, I guess, of I, because I have examples that, that are, so it's informed by my own experience with my faith, but also by other, like, people that I've known, I've known people who have felt hurt by how their church or how someone that they thought. Was in a place of guidance in, within the church, kind of responded to a situation that they were in potentially.

Michelle Croyle 8:28

Yeah. So my caseload, sometimes it's people who are like, I just, you know, I'm good with the faith. I'm doing the stuff and I have a good solid walk with the Lord. But, here's the practical stuff that I need help with.

Bethany Valenti 8:43

Mm.

Michelle Croyle 8:43

then about half of it, you know, everyday life stuff, or childhood trauma or whatever. but then another portion of it is, stuff like. The hurts that have come from people giving bad advice. Like, oh, well just pray it away, or you don't need boundaries

Bethany Valenti 9:03

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 9:05

or It's not that bad. Or wives should submit. And I'm like,

Bethany Valenti 9:10

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 9:10

yes, but Right.

Bethany Valenti 9:12

Right.

Michelle Croyle 9:13

Submission is a mutual kind of like, how can we both lift each other up,

Bethany Valenti 9:18

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 9:18

not a one down position?

Bethany Valenti 9:20

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 9:21

yes, pray. Yes, Believe scriptures, but like don't just accept somebody who's treating you abusively and

Bethany Valenti 9:29

forgive seven times 70, right? Like the,

Michelle Croyle 9:33

Forgive the, you know, forgive seven, 70 times, seven buts. That doesn't mean that you're going to allow that person access to you. And trust is okay. Right? Like, trust is not, something that, you know. people get unconditional access to you, when they've broken that trust.

Bethany Valenti 9:55

Hmm.

Michelle Croyle 9:56

things like that where people only get half the truth or something. That sounds good. Another one that I hate is everything happens for a

Bethany Valenti 10:04

For a reason.

Michelle Croyle 10:05

I hate that, do you like that one?

Bethany Valenti 10:07

Tell me. I have a complicated relationship with it because my opinion is sort of like, even if I believe that, I wouldn't just say that to somebody. Does that make sense? and because, sometimes my faith could mean that like, I don't know the reason, but I'm never gonna say that to someone.

Michelle Croyle 10:25

Mm-hmm.

Bethany Valenti 10:26

and sometimes the reason may not ever come to light and it may just be something that's just crappy. Like, it's possible that bad things just happen.

Michelle Croyle 10:36

Yeah. I think sometimes the reason is people sin and there's evil and

Bethany Valenti 10:43

And people suffer like we suffer in life.

Michelle Croyle 10:45

and so sometimes there isn't a reason we can understand or see on this side of

Bethany Valenti 10:50

yeah.

Michelle Croyle 10:50

but Biblically you know, the scripture says he'll work all things together for good to those who love him and are called according to his purpose. And then there's also another place, that, may you see good in the land of the living, but then also, you know, he will redeem us, but even if not right, he's, blessed, be God's name. And like, there's these concepts of, we don't always know is the promise of the full healing on this side of life or on, on the other side of death. And that's not really the point. The point is that, we're not powerless. On this side of things and that things can change. And that's where I like to really help people go. Look, the Bible also tells you to take every thought captive and to renew your mind. And God's people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. And so, you know, there's a lot of stuff that is very practical,

Bethany Valenti 11:44

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 11:45

You reap what you sow and, you know, taking steps of faith. I mean, that's faith, but that's also risk.

Bethany Valenti 11:52

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 11:53

That's also looking for new outcomes than what you've experienced when you've had trauma. It's, it's trying, again, putting yourself out there with maybe one person to see if you can make a new friend and be safe. maybe trying a different group or trying, to learn some tools to self-regulate or whatever, like it goes hand in hand. And I think sometimes people make it harder than it is and they try to overspiritualize it

Bethany Valenti 12:19

And then

Michelle Croyle 12:20

people end up feeling condemned and it's like, what if. God answered your prayer and gave you miracles in everyday ways that were really good. Like what if it's like medication could help? What if it's like being in a good friend group where people don't cut you down all the

Bethany Valenti 12:38

time or call you names

Michelle Croyle 12:41

exercising and feeding your body well? I mean like why even Jesus took naps. What if it's self care

Bethany Valenti 12:48

Hmm.

Michelle Croyle 12:49

and getting enough rest

Bethany Valenti 12:50

Even Jesus took naps. Yes. I love these. I'm, I, what I'm hearing is a lot of like, probably what you end up saying a lot to your clients, like the Jesus took naps. The Bible says this too, so I feel like I'm getting a one-sided element of themes that come up in your, in your time with your conversation. What, what sparked some of these conversations oftentimes, where you're pulling out the Bible says this too, or Jesus napped too, you know?

Michelle Croyle 13:18

Well, it's usually when there is a distortion. therapists are often looking for that cognitive distortion, that, CBT stuff to reframe beliefs. And there's a lot of damaging because people don't have the full truth.

Bethany Valenti 13:36

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 13:36

I find repeatedly saying both and both, and

Bethany Valenti 13:40

Mm

Michelle Croyle 13:40

God is good and we live in a fallen world,

Bethany Valenti 13:44

mm

Michelle Croyle 13:45

know, but both, and we can have freedom in this world and there are good things in this world and we can enjoy them. And that doesn't mean that you're sinning because you're enjoying your life and living in freedom. You don't have to suffer all the time. You know, sometimes people are like, oh, but I have to like continually suffer. Isn't that? No, you don't

Bethany Valenti 14:01

Like that.

Michelle Croyle 14:02

like

Bethany Valenti 14:02

that being joyful and

Michelle Croyle 14:05

yeah.

Bethany Valenti 14:05

pro like that, even just like prosperity is a sin right

Michelle Croyle 14:09

right. So if you go back to, scripturally to the love of money is the root of all evil. Excuse me, I'm getting over a cold.

Bethany Valenti 14:16

Yeah, go for it.

Michelle Croyle 14:19

God made water for dry throats

Bethany Valenti 14:20

Yes.

Michelle Croyle 14:21

You know what I mean?

Bethany Valenti 14:22

Right. Like, oh, it's, that's not my faith. I shouldn't drink, you know, I shouldn't even drink water.

Michelle Croyle 14:27

Like if

Bethany Valenti 14:28

shouldn't.

Michelle Croyle 14:28

we eat.

Bethany Valenti 14:29

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 14:29

too.

Bethany Valenti 14:30

What's the, I dunno if it's a story. You're gonna have to correct me on this. I can't remember if it's a, I think it's just a story that, that got told a lot when I was growing up. It was probably in one of those like nineties email chains that was out there a lot, you know? I don't think it's an actual biblical story, but it's the one about. Like, there being a flood and somebody's sitting on top of their house or something, and boats come by and they keep saying I'm waiting for God to save me or whatnot.

Michelle Croyle 14:54

It's not a biblical story story because then a helicopter comes.

Bethany Valenti 14:58

Yes, the helicopter comes and he is like, I'm, you know, I'm just waiting for God. and then he gets, ends up dying and going to heaven. Right? Because he didn't take the help and God, he's like, God, where were you all that time? He is like, I sent you boats. I sent you a helicopter. Like, you know, and I think there's a lot of great analogies or great ways to look at life through these lenses. And then there are ways that sometimes the lessons that we get can be harmful at the same time, like you were mentioning about. I'm picturing like relationships, like does that mean you're supposed to stay in an abusive relationship because you're supposed to submit to your husband? what does that mean? Does that mean that you're not supposed to work? Like, there's a lot of like, I think also sociopolitical stuff that like touches so much on religion.

Michelle Croyle 15:46

Yeah, and I think, that's why honestly, if you're going to be a Christian counselor. You need to know the word of God, like I'm not perfect at it.

Bethany Valenti 15:55

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 15:56

But I also will default to, well, let's look and see what scripture says. That doesn't mean that that's all I do in the therapy session, right?

Bethany Valenti 16:08

They could, they could Google scripture if they wanted to, you know?

Michelle Croyle 16:11

Exactly. and you know, non-Christians can be in the therapy room with me too.

Bethany Valenti 16:15

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 16:15

just where I specialize because there's a need,

Bethany Valenti 16:19

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 16:20

for people who know how to do deep trauma work with people, I'm EMDR certified and like, to have the science piece well as the spiritual knowledge so that when the people come in and they're like, but what about this? Or they only got half of a picture and, and there's more to it, right? Like the whole, you shouldn't divorce. Well, yes, that is God's preference that we don't divorce, but. It is not his preference for us to stay and be, abused. It's his preference that the person who is doing the abusing will come to repentance and never do it again. And it's okay for that

Bethany Valenti 17:05

you mean God was not victim Blaming Michelle,

Michelle Croyle 17:08

Oh, can you imagine

Bethany Valenti 17:11

God wanted.

Michelle Croyle 17:13

on the side of the broken hearted? Oh,

Bethany Valenti 17:16

God wanted people to take responsibility and to try and what was the word you used? Repent. And maybe go through redemption. Like,

Michelle Croyle 17:26

exactly.

Bethany Valenti 17:28

I am sorry. What? does that mean God thinks that you're supposed to wait until this person decides to get it together? What if there are children in the house?

Michelle Croyle 17:40

Yeah. these are the kinds of questions that come up.

Bethany Valenti 17:42

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 17:43

I

Bethany Valenti 17:44

Do I have to have sex with my husband every time he asks?

Michelle Croyle 17:47

Oh my goodness.

Bethany Valenti 17:48

Are these themes, like, these are my guesses. I work with some Christian clients, but these are just more of like my guesses. 'cause this is,

Michelle Croyle 17:56

Yeah.

Bethany Valenti 17:56

The things that I've heard.

Michelle Croyle 17:57

the things that I've seen are more like, the underlying theme is when do I have a right to make choices that are good for me?

Bethany Valenti 18:06

Ooh.

Michelle Croyle 18:06

Because they often feel, you know, Christian women often feel like they've been trained and taught to be, submissive, be passive, put other people first.

Bethany Valenti 18:19

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 18:20

I think that what I often say is, you can choose to put other people first,

Bethany Valenti 18:26

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 18:26

not everybody else, basically. I haven't said this directly, but not everybody else. Gets to go first. Like

Bethany Valenti 18:33

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 18:35

you need to set the stage as to what you'll accept and what you won't. But the, the thing that you need to be able to do is to make those decisions. 'cause the Bible also says not to do anything out of compulsion. Right. Not just because you have to, but to know why. Like,

Bethany Valenti 18:52

Mm.

Michelle Croyle 18:53

know why you're doing something is very powerful.

Bethany Valenti 18:56

Hmm

Michelle Croyle 18:57

if for instance, put others first and go, okay, you know what? You can cut in front of me in the grocery line, even if that's not kind. Or I'm gonna take this time outta my day to go visit someone who's sick because even though I don't really have that time. I really feel like it would be the right thing to do. That's one thing. But when you're putting others first, when they're doing wrong, or when they're abusing you or someone else and you're just enabling sin, I think that's a problem with you. Like, with the person. And that's being a doormat and that's that learned helplessness. And that's where we need to go in and go, wait a minute, happened to your voice? Why

Bethany Valenti 19:39

hmm.

Michelle Croyle 19:39

do you not have a voice and a choice?

Bethany Valenti 19:40

Don't you deserve better?

Michelle Croyle 19:42

have an equal spot at the table?

Bethany Valenti 19:44

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 19:44

you're not less than, you're not better than, but you have an equal place at the table.

Bethany Valenti 19:49

Yeah, like you're not taking up your space that, that you are deserved of,

Michelle Croyle 19:57

yeah. None of us like. Did anything to be here.

Bethany Valenti 20:00

yeah, yeah,

Michelle Croyle 20:01

We didn't ask to, to be born. we have nothing to say

Bethany Valenti 20:03

yeah,

Michelle Croyle 20:03

about it. We just are here. And so how could anybody else be better or worse than us?

Bethany Valenti 20:09

Right. I think so much of my own faith was so based on like, be nice to people, be, be small, be accommodating, and figuring out that, I didn't wanna give that up as a value, but how could I be giving and supportive and how can I make decisions that feel in alignment with my faith that don't necessarily. violate my peace or cause me to give more of myself.

Michelle Croyle 20:43

I think it, I've been wrestling with this, but I kind of feel like I'm on the other side of it.

Bethany Valenti 20:49

Ooh,

Michelle Croyle 20:49

over the last few months,

Bethany Valenti 20:51

mm

Michelle Croyle 20:52

the last year I realized I was trained to be nice.

Bethany Valenti 20:56

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 20:56

what I should have been trained to be was kind,

Bethany Valenti 21:00

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 21:01

Kind is not being nice. Kind is, it's a kindness to

Bethany Valenti 21:04

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 21:05

else out on stuff that's gonna hurt

Bethany Valenti 21:07

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 21:08

so when it's like, I have one client, I'm like, what happened in you that you started making some changes? She said, when you told me you were gonna fire me as a client because I wasn't doing anything

Bethany Valenti 21:20

Is that the approach you take sometimes?

Michelle Croyle 21:23

Not usually, but I will say something like, look, you came to me and I've been working with you for how long, and you're not doing anything different. There are people who want to do stuff different. What is getting in the way that isn't allowing you to do something different because you want the change, but you're not willing to do the behavior that will get you the change that you seek. I need to bring this to your attention that like, if you're not going to do the things that are gonna get you the change, then I don't know what we're doing here

Bethany Valenti 22:03

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 22:04

and,

Bethany Valenti 22:04

That, that sounds more like a serious ha come to Jesus moment, in therapy versus, versus like a I'm firing you if you don't do better. It's more of a what are like, I'm checking in, in a serious way. Like, what are we doing here? Are we meeting your needs?

Michelle Croyle 22:21

I didn't say I was, well, I never meant like I would fire her, but she said that's what

Bethany Valenti 22:26

that's how she took it.

Michelle Croyle 22:27

her.

Bethany Valenti 22:27

That's what got the fire under. Yeah. I just wanted to know what we were doing.

Michelle Croyle 22:33

well, I don't know. I may have said it, but I said it in love if I did. I don't remember

Bethany Valenti 22:36

If my guess, if I had to guess, it would've been like perhaps we could find you someone who might be a better fit for what you're looking for. it seems like we're not meeting your goals or something like that.

Michelle Croyle 22:52

you put it in nice therapy language,

Bethany Valenti 22:54

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 22:54

I have a rapport with people where I know if they can, joke or not so I

Bethany Valenti 23:00

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 23:01

me to have joke, been like,

Bethany Valenti 23:03

Haha.

Michelle Croyle 23:04

know, I could fire you here, like, you're not doing the job. You know, and they'd be like, crap, you know, she's

Bethany Valenti 23:10

Yeah,

Michelle Croyle 23:10

nothing, nothing. nothing actually meaning that, or,

Bethany Valenti 23:14

Right,

Michelle Croyle 23:14

Right,

Bethany Valenti 23:15

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 23:15

it's hard.

Bethany Valenti 23:17

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 23:18

I've been the person in the therapy room who has felt like I can't go there yet.

Bethany Valenti 23:22

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 23:23

I'm

Bethany Valenti 23:23

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 23:23

to walk with someone when they can't go there yet.

Bethany Valenti 23:26

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 23:26

Let's pretend that doesn't exist.

Bethany Valenti 23:29

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 23:29

Hey, why are we pretending it doesn't exist?

Bethany Valenti 23:32

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 23:32

know,

Bethany Valenti 23:33

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 23:33

What benefit are you getting out of, um, acting like it doesn't exist? How's that helping you? How's that protecting you?

Bethany Valenti 23:40

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 23:41

or something like

Bethany Valenti 23:42

Yeah. Yeah, you didn't just jump right into like, Hey, you're not making any changes, you're out.

Michelle Croyle 23:48

strikes.

Bethany Valenti 23:49

I think we got, we're past some strikes. We should come back to the drawing board here.

Michelle Croyle 23:53

That's right.

Bethany Valenti 23:55

so much of this is touching, on reflections that I have personally and professionally, so I'm trying to decide what direction would serve listeners versus just me and my curiosity. when we are talking about the kind versus nice, which I think is very interesting because side note, we talk with my son, who's four about asking nicely a lot of the time, and. What that looks like. And then somewhere recently at a park, I heard another mom saying, when you can ask kindly, And I, you know, the difference between nice and kind and you know, that stuff. I feel like I'm working with where his brain is at currently, to me, I feel like nice sounds easier to say than kind

Michelle Croyle 24:39

Well, what you mean

Bethany Valenti 24:39

politely. Yes.

Michelle Croyle 24:40

is polite.

Bethany Valenti 24:41

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 24:42

the

Bethany Valenti 24:43

Don't be rude.

Michelle Croyle 24:44

But the message women get off it, you know, is girls is be nice.

Bethany Valenti 24:48

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 24:49

put a boundary. If someone wants to hug you, let them hug you. Maybe I don't want their hands on me.

Bethany Valenti 24:55

right.

Michelle Croyle 24:56

be kind,

Bethany Valenti 24:57

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 24:57

So, I mean, the way you're using Nice. Absolutely fine.

Bethany Valenti 25:01

Right.

Michelle Croyle 25:02

nice at the expense of your ability to say no.

Bethany Valenti 25:05

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 25:06

It's,

Bethany Valenti 25:06

Mm.

Michelle Croyle 25:07

a better way to be kind and

Bethany Valenti 25:10

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 25:10

Actually, I prefer not

Bethany Valenti 25:12

thank you. And so then we were saying, what's the, what's the nice way to kindly like say no,

Michelle Croyle 25:18

Ex

Bethany Valenti 25:18

How can you nicely and kindly hold your boundary?

Michelle Croyle 25:21

Exactly.

Bethany Valenti 25:21

yeah,

Michelle Croyle 25:22

if you can't be nice, you can be kind and go. I said no.

Bethany Valenti 25:26

yeah. There you go.

Michelle Croyle 25:27

I also help people a lot with, and this is within the last year that I really started in deeper into my stuff in this

Bethany Valenti 25:33

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 25:34

regard was, am I causing harm

Bethany Valenti 25:37

Mm.

Michelle Croyle 25:37

is someone being hurt simply because I spoke the truth in love and, said what was okay with me and what wasn't?

Bethany Valenti 25:46

Right.

Michelle Croyle 25:47

I don't go out there to make people feel hurt either, but I'm not making them feel hurt when I simply say, I can do this or I can't do this. And that's where my clients often struggle is, you mean if I say this and they get hurt, that's not my responsibility to make sure I didn't hurt them. Like, if you didn't do something sinful or harmful, if they get hurt, that's just a feeling.

Bethany Valenti 26:11

Right. I think there's a difference between checking in and then rushing to fix, right? Of like, oh, how did that feel? Are we still good? Is different than like, are you mad that I said, no, I could do it if you really need me to. like, oh, I'm so sorry. basically apologizing for saying no.

Michelle Croyle 26:32

For communicating

Bethany Valenti 26:32

Over and over. Yeah. For communicating, yeah, for advocating for yourself at times. Okay. Last question along these veins, and then I'll take us kind of in a more structured direction. I was thinking about when we were talking about kindness and niceness and boundaries and all that about good versus bad and virtue.

Michelle Croyle 26:53

Mm-hmm.

Bethany Valenti 26:53

and I think Christians, and tell me if this isn't maybe a little more specific to women, could be taught that nice, good, virtuous, like are all kind of this like thread of like where your value is and are you in alignment? Are you in alignment with God the whole time?

Michelle Croyle 27:16

Yeah, I think that that is absolutely, only part of the picture.

Bethany Valenti 27:23

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 27:24

I think that it gets mixed up a lot, you know,

Bethany Valenti 27:27

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 27:27

mean, there are so many Bible stories where, Jesus wasn't wishy washy, but he was also kind, but he was also strong. And I don't think we would have that to model after if that weren't the way to be. I think when we're just like. Playing nice for nice sake. That's people pleasing. And the Bible's not about that. It's like, if you're still trying to please man, you wouldn't be trying to please God,

Bethany Valenti 27:57

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 27:57

it's like that whole people pleasing thing is what a lot of Christian women struggle with. Serve God, let you know your yes. But yes, your no be no speak the truth in love. Truth set you free. You know? it's just, there's just a lot about, sowing and reaping and personal responsibility and, choosing your words to be, you know, what they need to be.

Bethany Valenti 28:21

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 28:21

it's a big undercurrent of like, it's not like these all show up in every single session or whatever. And it's not like we pray in every session, although some people do ask for it in each of their sessions. I don't think we have to overspiritualize. I think everything in life is an act of worship for the Christian. So, I think having a talk and playfully joking and laughing is fun. Having hot chocolate is worship. I mean, we're just in him. We live and move and have our being right. So I just feel like, we are not outside of God's will. If we're not sinning

Bethany Valenti 28:58

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 28:59

then there's a lot of freedom in Christ. And so I think that Jesus gets a bad rap. And, there are a lot of people who are Christian in name only and they're not really putting into practice the principles in the Bible of love and, care and laying down one's life for his friends and, and things like that. Um,

Bethany Valenti 29:23

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 29:23

You always lay down your life

Bethany Valenti 29:25

mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 29:26

I don't know.

Bethany Valenti 29:27

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 29:27

is better. Like if, you know, if your, if your kid was in danger and it's like, well, but this person's in danger too. I mean, you also, like, if you laid down your life, then you wouldn't be able to be the parent to that young child. So you have to, like, you're with caring for your family and your child. So, I mean, these are extreme things, but they are complicated. There are some times where we have to wrestle with big concepts.

Bethany Valenti 29:55

Yeah. Speaking of big concepts, you mentioned science and spirituality,

Michelle Croyle 30:01

Yeah.

Bethany Valenti 30:02

and so I know that when we've chatted off mic before, you have felt that one of the things that is a sticking point for you is what feels often like psychology and Christianity being at odds.

Michelle Croyle 30:23

Yeah, yeah. There's some schools of ministry that are like that, and I just, don't see it that way. I, I, Liberty taught me, a phrase that I have loved for years, which is all truth is God's truth. If something is really true. It's God like it, you know, God's truth is there because he made everything. So if he made everything, then what is true is true. let God be true in every man a liar, if he made brains, which he did, he made souls, which he did, The whole psyche, all of that, that's biblical.

Bethany Valenti 31:03

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 31:04

would it be separate? He made us with bodies. If we didn't need to have bodies and we were only spiritual beings on this earth, we wouldn't have bodies. He made us to have hunger and to have thirst and to need rest. he made us for community. I mean, if these were not things that he wanted for us, you know, he made sex. If that's not something he wanted for us, right now, he wants to protect us. So that's why there are, rules and guidelines in the context of a loving marriage, right? But. that's because he wants to protect us. Well, how many times people are now co-parenting with people that they have no commitment to and can't stand

Bethany Valenti 31:43

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 31:44

who aren't good for them. It isn't 'cause God's trying to stop us from good things. It's because he knows that ultimately when there isn't respect, when there isn't love, when there isn't personal responsibility and self-control and all those good things. That people can hurt each other and he doesn't want us to be hurt. So it's a loving, protective thing, not a forbidden, you're bad. It's protection. And I think that that's, again, where, I don't know, I got off the topic of the initial concept of

Bethany Valenti 32:12

Right. That's fine.

Michelle Croyle 32:13

but, it's that whole piece of psychology and faith. They blend. they're not exclusive. You cannot be a human being on this earth without

Bethany Valenti 32:27

being

Michelle Croyle 32:27

a spiritual, physical, emotional, relational being.

Bethany Valenti 32:31

Mm-hmm. I feel like. Therapists have a hard time kind of fusing the two. I distinctly remember at my grad program, I don't remember what class it was, but I remember, that we were reviewing a study that was done, of interviewing therapists. And the first question was something to the effect they asked them, how important do you think spirituality is in, overall health to your client? And that you need to check in on it and potentially incorporate it into your therapy work. And the numbers for that were super high, the majority, right?

Michelle Croyle 33:06

Wow.

Bethany Valenti 33:06

then it was like, the follow up question was how many are actually doing it?

Michelle Croyle 33:10

Hmm.

Bethany Valenti 33:11

that was much lower. I couldn't tell you the numbers, but I think people might have a hard time asking about that. as a result, if it's not asked about, sometimes clients hesitate with bringing it up and feeling not really sure. Wright State School professional psychology.

Michelle Croyle 33:26

Oh.

Bethany Valenti 33:27

so they were super into like, diversity in all its forms, you know? it's, you actually made me think about it earlier when you were talking about, I almost brought this up then we had multicultural, for our cohorts, we did these group. Discussions around different areas of identity and issues and, how they affected us as therapists and how they affected our clients. and just kinda like doing the work together as it were. and I still remember when we kind of focused on faith, I got us off topic. I know you were talking about specifically how, the, the struggle, the, the frustration that you have that. Psychology and, Christian faith are at odds a lot of the time, and that you believe that they're not.

Michelle Croyle 34:13

Yeah, I mean, there are a lot who don't think that they're at odds, but there's enough stigma, in some branches of, thinking that think that they are, and I think it often causes more harm, because it, you know, I've heard people say it wasn't okay to reach out outside of their kind of more cultish type of thing.

Bethany Valenti 34:40

mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 34:40

well, where are you? you can't reach out. you don't think that God is strong enough to allow someone to have another person to care for them.

Bethany Valenti 34:51

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 34:51

I think that when we isolate people from resources, that's inappropriate. I mean, everybody should be able to choose if something's wrong, I need help. I'm gonna go get help.

Bethany Valenti 35:03

Yeah. And go get help. I have, a memory of a friend of mine telling me that she had a hard time. It was one of my oldest friends, with her church that she went to because she had a sibling who was diagnosed with bipolar.

Michelle Croyle 35:22

mm.

Bethany Valenti 35:23

And her experience was that the congregation kind of alienated them or didn't wanna talk about it. And for all I know, did some of the prey away sort of thing.

Michelle Croyle 35:38

I think you can pray and also not think you need to pray it away.

Bethany Valenti 35:43

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 35:44

Of course bipolar comes with a

Bethany Valenti 35:45

Right.

Michelle Croyle 35:45

lot of suffering. So we're, you know, if it can be. Prayed away. Great. But I mean, I think again, it's both and the compassion. Like if you a tool like prayer, why not use it? And if If you have a tool like medication, why not use

Bethany Valenti 35:59

Why not use it? I forget where I was, but I was putting one of my kids down the other day and thought about a prominent celebrity. I feel like I can say people's names if it's public domain. you were with all the conflict around, Tom Cruise as a Scientologist, like criticizing Brooke Shields for using medication when she would postpartum depression.

Michelle Croyle 36:24

yeah.

Bethany Valenti 36:25

But I hadn't, and I was very young when that happened. I didn't even know about postpartum depression. And so I feel like it was so meaningful that she spoke up about it because I didn't even know that was a thing. And, obviously well before I was in college. But like, it just, I, you know, like you said, like to what detriment would that have been to the child, you know? And that the way my thinking, logic and faith works is that the medication brings you closer to being more in alignment with your faith. Most likely. If, you know, I don't know anything about Brooke Shields and her, you know, like, you know, but like, so

Michelle Croyle 37:05

right.

Bethany Valenti 37:06

as a person, as a person who's experienced it, who has, you know, for someone who might have like postpartum stuff, if there's something that you need to bring you. Closer to like your family and your child and your own stable state as you're going through all these changes, then like,

Michelle Croyle 37:23

That's

Bethany Valenti 37:23

yeah. Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 37:25

responsibility and optimizing the tool that you've been given of your brain and your body,

Bethany Valenti 37:32

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 37:32

how do we take care of it? Like that's totally in alignment with God's Worth,

Bethany Valenti 37:37

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 37:37

who don't want it, or it hasn't worked for them

Bethany Valenti 37:40

Yeah,

Michelle Croyle 37:40

yeah, like why not?

Bethany Valenti 37:43

yeah. When you said something about prayer being a tool, like a moment ago, I had this thing in my head of like, I prayed to find the right treatment or that treatment works, you know, because it's not always a guarantee.

Michelle Croyle 37:56

Or pray for widom. Yeah.

Bethany Valenti 37:58

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Michelle Croyle 37:59

yeah,

Bethany Valenti 38:00

Support all that, good stuff. There's so much more to pray for besides make this thing go away.

Michelle Croyle 38:07

Exactly. And I think yeah, I, that's a okay. That point that, that's a

Bethany Valenti 38:11

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 38:12

point. if you put something on Instagram, that's a good one.

Bethany Valenti 38:16

Well, thank you.

Michelle Croyle 38:18

Well done.

Bethany Valenti 38:20

I'll take it. I'll take it. Thank you. all sorts of stuff. so how do you like to work through like the, let's take care of the mind, body, and spirit with, with your clients and doing all of them.

Michelle Croyle 38:37

You mean like, what do I do to

Bethany Valenti 38:39

How do you like to frame it for people? that you haven't already said, you know.

Michelle Croyle 38:43

I bring in, so I use EMDR as my trauma framework, right? Because you go to regulation and containment and history and, the processing and stuff. But then in that, I do a lot of somatic experiencing. I let people get familiar with dropping into their body so they can feel the information that's there as well as, you know, the thoughts a lot of Christian women overthink. a lot of my clientele are people who learned how to survive and strategize out of dysfunction and such by staying ahead of it being the performers, being the more

Bethany Valenti 39:20

Whoa.

Michelle Croyle 39:21

perfectionistic type, you

Bethany Valenti 39:22

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 39:23

and so oftentimes I'll be like, slow down. How do you feel? Let's go to your feelings.

Bethany Valenti 39:29

I feel like I need to do X, Y, and z.

Michelle Croyle 39:32

Exactly.

Bethany Valenti 39:33

Which I feel like, yeah.

Michelle Croyle 39:35

Exactly. It's like that's not a feeling. You feel frantic, you feel,

Bethany Valenti 39:42

Sense of urgency.

Michelle Croyle 39:43

Exactly. That's okay.

Bethany Valenti 39:45

yeah,

Michelle Croyle 39:45

but yeah, so we do a lot of, and, and I talk about parts. So a part of you wants this, a part of you, right? And how is that trying to help you and protect you and everything. So those are my go-tos. it's like a, I don't know if you call it a five thing plus faith, if they want the faith part brought in, but you know, the faith part, the, trauma the foundation. Then bring in the somatic, experiencing the CBT thought, you know, distortion, challenging, and the, parts work. And I don't know, what did I miss? anyhow, four or five parts to

Bethany Valenti 40:19

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 40:19

I

Bethany Valenti 40:19

It may change depending on the person. You never know. they don't need all of them.

Michelle Croyle 40:23

And I might blend them

Bethany Valenti 40:24

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 40:24

You know?

Bethany Valenti 40:25

I know.

Michelle Croyle 40:25

you know, but I work on, all of the pieces and letting it integrate,

Bethany Valenti 40:30

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 40:31

yeah.

Bethany Valenti 40:32

I've found I have to sometimes, I like to sort of ask what they're already doing that works and figuring out what doesn't and try to incorporate that. And then if there are things that I'm aware of that could be helpful, you know, you throw that out there. Like, just one very personal example that I found was when I was younger, I found that if I Did the Lord's Prayer in every line you inhale and exhale, it's kind of this meditative practice,

Michelle Croyle 40:59

Yeah.

Bethany Valenti 41:00

you're sort of feeling like more in tune. Like it kind of puts you in that space.

Michelle Croyle 41:04

A breath prayer, or is that different?

Bethany Valenti 41:06

I have no idea. you're the expert. I'm watch, there's a name for it out there. and I didn't even know it was a thing. There's people listening going, yeah, that's a breath prayer, Michelle. You're absolutely right. Bethany has no idea. Yeah, no, I have no idea. I have no idea. so yeah, just like, affirmations, I like to share. like what works for some people, like journaling. I also like, I know I'm getting all these different trails. you're just rolling with it. I appreciate it. I have known people who really need nature as part of their like spiritual and faith practice. I, like I speak about my husband, he feels like a totally different person in tune, I think with something bigger than himself when he is in nature. I knew someone years ago who also brought in this idea, like shared with the group that we were with at the time. this idea of having the love languages, which I know are flawed in some ways, but are kind of still a nice tool to bring in sometimes. But like, They said that if you can bring those, like you're, if you know how you like operate in terms of that like love and communication, that you could bring that into your faith as well. And she was sharing how she's like a physical touch person

Michelle Croyle 42:28

Uhhuh.

Bethany Valenti 42:28

and so she was like that. I always felt like really weird that I couldn't like, you know, totally do that. But she would talk about like how she, when she figured out that like physical touch was kind of her thing, or I don't remember how, maybe it was in hindsight, but there were times where she was like super connected to like her faith and like spirituality. Like when she had her hands just balanced in water and like a pond or whatever. She talked, one of the things that was so cute at the time, she talked about like, if there's dirt, she just wants to like shove her face in it or whatever. 'cause she's just so into it. Like she just, when she does that, when she connects with nat, I know right. When she connects with that, like that connects for her. do you find. You're doing a lot of that too, because you said some people come in and they're like, eh, I'm good. You know, like, let's just figure out how to talk to my kids about this or something, you know, or whatever.

Michelle Croyle 43:19

I mean, pretty much that stuff is stuff that, they often bring up, you know, like

Bethany Valenti 43:26

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 43:26

A lot of my people come in already, you know, reading books or journaling or walking or whatever. Like I have someone who comes in, before our sessions and she's just walked her dog right before session, she says. That's very grounding.

Bethany Valenti 43:40

That's nice.

Michelle Croyle 43:41

so yeah, I usually only try to. not only try to, but like usually they fall into a couple of different places, right? They either have a lot of these things that they're already nurturing themselves with or they fall into the, I don't have time for self-care. What are you talking about? And that's, that's when I have to try to go, okay, well what about this? what would your, you know, what would you do if, we just have to try to get into some of the, more dream? What would your life look like? What would you do if you had fun? What did you do as a kid? Or whatever it is, you know, something to get in touch with the possibilities. 'cause sometimes when they're so focused on, we have to fix something, it's like they miss the view that like, you can create your life. You know? There is nothing stopping you from like. Just quitting everything and moving to California, you could do it,

Bethany Valenti 44:38

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 44:39

you might have to work jobs all the way across the country to be able to

Bethany Valenti 44:43

Make your way there. Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 44:44

but like, there's so much more you can do.

Bethany Valenti 44:48

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 44:48

It's like, somebody can do it, why can't you be a llama

Bethany Valenti 44:52

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 44:53

Like, if

Bethany Valenti 44:54

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 44:54

be, you know?

Bethany Valenti 44:55

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 44:56

and I just, that's where I bring in these kinds of things from me. I get ridiculous with them because I'm like, well, why not? Who says you can't?

Bethany Valenti 45:04

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 45:05

And then usually, you know, they settle for something like, I don't know, Starbucks coffee and journaling, but the concept is least, at least

Bethany Valenti 45:13

Feels a little more accessible than the llama farmer in Peru for right now. Maybe one comes and then the other,

Michelle Croyle 45:19

Do they even have llamas in Peru? I don't even know.

Bethany Valenti 45:22

I think so. Isn't that the country? oh my gosh. Let me do some fact checking.

Michelle Croyle 45:26

This is

Bethany Valenti 45:27

Check the show notes. I know. So do you wanna talk about like how you do your EMDR incorporating that with like your Christian women? Does that look any different than what you've heard or

Michelle Croyle 45:39

I know that a lot of people do. because of my background of having some religious trauma, I don't like to guide a lot in that area, so I do more because. I had enough imposed on me

Bethany Valenti 45:56

Hmm.

Michelle Croyle 45:56

like, oh, this is what it should look like,

Bethany Valenti 45:58

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 45:59

don't really do too much in that way. I'm open to it. If someone lets me know, or I'll say, if they've brought something up, I'll be like, okay, well remember what you told me. God showed you, you know, things like that. Or what would God say? You know, what, what, well, what does the Bible say? What do you know? Let's go back to that. and I'll give them scriptures or whatever. They get to decide whether they want to, incorporate it or not. You know. But I usually, before I broach things as far as like, here's where we go with the spiritual, I've already had several, sessions

Bethany Valenti 46:35

you've laid some groundwork there.

Michelle Croyle 46:37

right. So then I weave in what they, What are the strengths that are gonna help them for like the interweaves of the EMDR,

Bethany Valenti 46:45

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 46:46

to help remind them and anchor them into things that they believe and such.

Bethany Valenti 46:50

Yeah,

Michelle Croyle 46:50

I'm very cautious.

Bethany Valenti 46:51

With that is like finding like a safe place or phrasing and just different stuff, right?

Michelle Croyle 46:58

yes.

Bethany Valenti 46:59

or not.

Michelle Croyle 47:01

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. the same thing whether faith or anything, like, I very much always, know, I feel like I say this, like a broken record. If this is okay with you, would this

Bethany Valenti 47:13

Mm.

Michelle Croyle 47:13

be all right?

Bethany Valenti 47:14

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 47:14

do you think about this?

Bethany Valenti 47:16

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 47:16

do you have any questions? Is, is this okay if we do this now or we could do this? Like, I give a lot of personal choice, in things because I don't want to be a perpetrator accidentally. I mean, I'd never be one on purpose, but, you know, I don't want to

Bethany Valenti 47:30

Mm.

Michelle Croyle 47:30

accidentally not ask permission.

Bethany Valenti 47:33

Yeah, because I think especially in the world of like religion. Some of the damage that has been done has not been with mal-intent, and that's one of the extra sad things about it.

Michelle Croyle 47:49

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Bethany Valenti 47:53

But also it, we have that awareness of sometimes we could do damage even with good intentions.

Michelle Croyle 47:58

Yeah,

Bethany Valenti 47:59

I think that's really powerful to bring that in. Especially with the trauma piece, like you were talking about. Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 48:05

Exactly. And then, you get a lot of possible things coming up, dissociation or transference and stuff, and I just kind of go along for the ride and see what shows up in present moment and then help people, notice it and, oh, what are you noticing now,

Bethany Valenti 48:22

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 48:22

standard EMDR. it's weaving all of it in based on where the client is because even though they might all identify with, Christian faith, that means to them and what their histories are and how they understand it and their walk with God and where they are as a person, I mean, there's just so much that's variable.

Bethany Valenti 48:43

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 48:44

and of course, you know, if people came in for trauma work and it wasn't, you know, they weren't faith-based. I, I'm not gonna stop being who I am, but I'm

Bethany Valenti 48:54

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 48:55

I'm not going

Bethany Valenti 48:56

You're not gonna say, let's open with prayer.

Michelle Croyle 48:58

Yeah, Exactly. Like I'm

Bethany Valenti 49:00

Yeah,

Michelle Croyle 49:00

I'm

Bethany Valenti 49:00

yeah,

Michelle Croyle 49:01

I'm not gonna overstep,

Bethany Valenti 49:02

yeah,

Michelle Croyle 49:03

because I work too hard for my

Bethany Valenti 49:05

yeah.

Michelle Croyle 49:05

license for one,

Bethany Valenti 49:07

Preach.

Michelle Croyle 49:08

but I don't wanna hurt anybody,

Bethany Valenti 49:10

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 49:10

never want my stuff to be imposed. and I like to keep my license, you know,

Bethany Valenti 49:15

we like licenses.

Michelle Croyle 49:16

are good.

Bethany Valenti 49:17

Licenses are good.

Michelle Croyle 49:18

you need to keep your license.

Bethany Valenti 49:20

that license.

Michelle Croyle 49:21

like, yep.

Bethany Valenti 49:23

is there anything about your work that you were hoping that we could touch on today that we haven't gotten to? anything that you would just want people to know

Michelle Croyle 49:31

just starting to do intensives,

Bethany Valenti 49:33

Ooh. Intensive work.

Michelle Croyle 49:35

for those who don't know, it's a buzzword for therapists now,

Bethany Valenti 49:38

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 49:39

in the public

Bethany Valenti 49:40

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 49:40

of doing your traditional weekly session, it's saying, Hey, I'll book a therapist for like three hours, or six hours, or six hours over two days, or a week. of full day or half day sessions.

Bethany Valenti 49:52

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 49:53

I am so excited about it, because

Bethany Valenti 49:55

I wanna do intensives.

Michelle Croyle 49:57

do

Bethany Valenti 49:57

I'm, I'm not ready yet, but I really want to.

Michelle Croyle 50:00

It's a,

Bethany Valenti 50:00

Yeah. I love it.

Michelle Croyle 50:01

I've done like extended sessions, you know, like

Bethany Valenti 50:04

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 50:04

a half, four hours or

Bethany Valenti 50:05

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 50:06

but like to just go, 'cause I primarily do online. done two in-person intensives and my gosh, it's just so cool. It's just the luxury of people being able to stay with the pain once they've finally gotten there and not have to tidy it up at the end of the hour and to just really go to get more resolution. It's just, it just feels like it's more humane,

Bethany Valenti 50:35

Mm.

Michelle Croyle 50:35

I

Bethany Valenti 50:36

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 50:36

I really like it.

Bethany Valenti 50:38

Oh, that's exciting.

Michelle Croyle 50:39

that's on the horizon.

Bethany Valenti 50:40

Yeah. So it's on the horizon, or have you started, have you, you're doing,

Michelle Croyle 50:44

it

Bethany Valenti 50:44

yeah.

Michelle Croyle 50:45

it.

Bethany Valenti 50:45

So it's,

Michelle Croyle 50:47

to be more of my caseload,

Bethany Valenti 50:49

it's not on the horizon.

Michelle Croyle 50:52

I dunno where that is,

Bethany Valenti 50:53

I was thinking like, horizon being, like, when people say it's on the horizon, I always picture a sunset or like sunrise. So that was silly.

Michelle Croyle 51:04

it's continuing to grow and come up like the sun. How about that?

Bethany Valenti 51:08

it's a new offering. Should you care to partake?

Michelle Croyle 51:11

It's

Bethany Valenti 51:12

with or with, so I'm guessing EMDR, 'cause I know that's a big good one for intensives. do you have some that are like specifically like faith-based ones or?

Michelle Croyle 51:22

it's,

Bethany Valenti 51:22

No, it's just.

Michelle Croyle 51:23

like, everything is

Bethany Valenti 51:24

right now.

Michelle Croyle 51:25

client focused

Bethany Valenti 51:25

Client focused. Okay.

Michelle Croyle 51:26

they,

Bethany Valenti 51:26

as it should be.

Michelle Croyle 51:27

EMDR isn't, you know, the best

Bethany Valenti 51:30

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 51:30

then maybe it's

Bethany Valenti 51:31

We're not doing it.

Michelle Croyle 51:32

Exactly.

Bethany Valenti 51:33

are you ready for our wrap up questions?

Michelle Croyle 51:36

I am ready for

Bethany Valenti 51:36

No

Michelle Croyle 51:37

What

Bethany Valenti 51:37

You're just like, no, I'm just curious.

Michelle Croyle 51:38

I was like, that sounded really good. it like Colbert or something where he ask those questions at the end? Like would you rather

Bethany Valenti 51:45

Oh man.

Michelle Croyle 51:45

have an orange or an apple or something?

Bethany Valenti 51:49

Oh man. I wish they were that good. Um, where are you licensed?

Michelle Croyle 51:56

Oh, that's boring,

Bethany Valenti 51:56

just Pennsylvania, is that right? the one state.

Michelle Croyle 51:59

Pennsylvania.

Bethany Valenti 52:00

We're.

Michelle Croyle 52:00

oranges

Bethany Valenti 52:01

Do you have openings?

Michelle Croyle 52:02

yes, I do have openings for Intensivess.

Bethany Valenti 52:05

Okay.

Michelle Croyle 52:06

Weekly there would be a wait list.

Bethany Valenti 52:09

Little bit of a wait. Okay. And do you take insurance or no?

Michelle Croyle 52:13

I am in the process of getting off of insurance. So I only take

Bethany Valenti 52:16

Okay.

Michelle Croyle 52:17

Highmark at this point. I do offer CareCredit though,

Bethany Valenti 52:20

Okay. what is your current fee?

Michelle Croyle 52:24

200,

Bethany Valenti 52:25

Okay.

Michelle Croyle 52:26

intensives are sold by the package. So they're a little bit more of a premium.

Bethany Valenti 52:28

Okay. Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 52:31

Get so much more done. The 200 is the weekly rate and,

Bethany Valenti 52:34

Oh, okay.

Michelle Croyle 52:35

hourly.

Bethany Valenti 52:35

Are you online or in person?

Michelle Croyle 52:37

intensives in person,

Bethany Valenti 52:39

Okay.

Michelle Croyle 52:40

online,

Bethany Valenti 52:41

You'll do.

Michelle Croyle 52:42

just online.

Bethany Valenti 52:43

Oh, okay.

Michelle Croyle 52:43

go to my office on the other side of Pittsburgh.

Bethany Valenti 52:46

you're gonna be there for an intensive.

Michelle Croyle 52:49

Exactly.

Bethany Valenti 52:50

What do you nerd out about?

Michelle Croyle 52:54

Reading books,

Bethany Valenti 52:55

mm, mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 52:57

and fun with family.

Bethany Valenti 52:59

Oh, I love it.

Michelle Croyle 53:00

those are my things.

Bethany Valenti 53:01

What are you reading right now?

Michelle Croyle 53:04

I'm reading the book of, Elvis Presley's, doctor I've been on an Elvis Presley kick, so

Bethany Valenti 53:10

Kick.

Michelle Croyle 53:10

about Dr. Nick, who is, yeah. Elvis Kick.

Bethany Valenti 53:14

Okay.

Michelle Croyle 53:15

I'm also reading, How We Love By Milan and Kay Yerkovich,

Bethany Valenti 53:19

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Croyle 53:19

I just finished, Anna Duggar's new book.

Bethany Valenti 53:22

Yes,

Michelle Croyle 53:23

Amy.

Bethany Valenti 53:24

Amy?

Michelle Croyle 53:25

And the I'm going to interview her on my podcast on Thursday

Bethany Valenti 53:28

oh, cool. I just saw a clip of her on someone else's podcast. I think it was Monte Mader. I think that was her. I didn't know she had written a book and all that. I didn't watch any of the Duggar stuff, so I

Michelle Croyle 53:39

Holy Disrupter

Bethany Valenti 53:39

Holy disruptor. Yep. Holy Disruptor, by Amy Duggar.

Michelle Croyle 53:43

Yeah. Amy Dugger King. Yeah, I'm, I don't know why I said Ann, I've been like thinking about her all week. I love this book. I'm interviewing her on Thursday

Bethany Valenti 53:51

You know what it is you're preparing for your podcast so that when you introduce her, you will not say, Amy, you're doing it here now, so that you don't do it then.

Michelle Croyle 54:01

don't make me say Anna.

Bethany Valenti 54:02

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 54:03

her cousin-in-law,

Bethany Valenti 54:04

her cousin Okay. Cousin-in-law. so you're gonna say, Amy,

Michelle Croyle 54:08

That's right.

Bethany Valenti 54:08

You got it out of the way. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I read the book, like, I know what I'm doing.

Michelle Croyle 54:14

amazing. I

Bethany Valenti 54:15

Names are hard.

Michelle Croyle 54:16

end of the day. I've already done 4 clients

Bethany Valenti 54:18

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 54:19

a group,

Bethany Valenti 54:20

You're almost done. Bless you. Thank you. Do you have any pets?

Michelle Croyle 54:25

Uh, we have two dogs.

Bethany Valenti 54:27

Okay.

Michelle Croyle 54:27

Yes. Corduroy

Bethany Valenti 54:28

And

Michelle Croyle 54:29

our

Bethany Valenti 54:30

oh,

Michelle Croyle 54:30

goldendoodle, and Brooklyn is our morkey.

Bethany Valenti 54:34

I know someone who has a pet named corduroy, but it's a totally different animal. what is something that you find comforting?

Michelle Croyle 54:41

my, weighted blanket that my

Bethany Valenti 54:44

Mm

Michelle Croyle 54:44

got me for my birthday or my pickleball blanket that my son and his fiance got me for my birthday.

Bethany Valenti 54:50

Oh, so blankets.

Michelle Croyle 54:52

My other daughter gets me good stuff too, but she didn't get me a blanket.

Bethany Valenti 54:54

She didn't give you a blanket she knows. All right. For ideas for Christmas for Mom,

Michelle Croyle 54:59

you go.

Bethany Valenti 55:00

get the trifecta. All blankets. are you coffee or a tea person?

Michelle Croyle 55:05

Uh, both.

Bethany Valenti 55:06

Both. Okay. And what is your least favorite misconception about the work that we do?

Michelle Croyle 55:22

Well, so to answer it it's that we just sit there because I

Bethany Valenti 55:27

Hmm,

Michelle Croyle 55:27

lot of people have been the blank slate, and I think that's garbage. So

Bethany Valenti 55:31

hmm hmm. Hot take.

Michelle Croyle 55:33

think it's important,

Bethany Valenti 55:35

Yeah.

Michelle Croyle 55:35

to not put our stuff on people, of course. But I think that people, if they could solve it on their own by just sitting there, they would've done it already,

Bethany Valenti 55:45

Yeah. AI could do that for them now,

Michelle Croyle 55:47

Exactly. Exactly.

Bethany Valenti 55:49

Which has, its own issues. where can people find you?

Michelle Croyle 55:52

my podcast and the, website related to that

Bethany Valenti 55:57

is mental

Michelle Croyle 55:57

health for christian women.com. And then my private practice is, EMDR pittsburgh.com.

Bethany Valenti 56:05

Oh, nice. And you have an Instagram? Correct.

Michelle Croyle 56:08

yes. That's mental health for Christian Women or Michelle Croyle.

Bethany Valenti 56:12

Okay, awesome.

Michelle Croyle 56:14

So,

Bethany Valenti 56:15

Oh, Michelle.

Michelle Croyle 56:16

you know,

Bethany Valenti 56:16

Yeah, they're out there.

Michelle Croyle 56:18

Exactly. My practice is actually called Abundant Freedom Counseling, but EMDR Pittsburgh is easier to say and spell so

Bethany Valenti 56:24

and remember

Michelle Croyle 56:26

and remember. Mm-hmm.

Bethany Valenti 56:27

And to type into Google, come right up. Michelle Croyle, thank you so much for today.

Michelle Croyle 56:32

Thank you, Bethany. This was so fun.