12. Brainspotting vs EMDR and Working with Midlife Women with Keely Rodriguez

Join Dr. Bethany Valenti on the 'Say Hello to Your Therapist' podcast as she interviews Keely Rodriguez. Keely shares her journey from various careers to becoming a therapist specializing in trauma, anxiety, and grief for middle-aged and perimenopausal women. The discussion also delves into therapeutic techniques like EMDR and brain spotting, comparing their uses and benefits. Additionally, the conversation touches on the unique challenges faced by midlife women and the importance of addressing mental health during this transitional phase.

To learn more about Keely:
Website

Keely's Instagram

Keely's Blog Therapy for Grown Ass Women

Keely's YouTube Channel

To learn more about Bethany Valenti, PsyD:

Bethany's Website

Say Hello to Your Therapist Podcast Instagram

Bethany's Instagram

Bethany's Facebook Page

Things we talked about:
We Do Not Care Club aka Melani Sanders

EMDR: Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing

Brainspotting and Dr. David Grand

Dr. Dan Siegel Hand Model of the Brain

Perimenopause

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast
01:17 Meet Keely Rodriguez: A Journey to Becoming a Therapist
02:27 Keely's Career Transition and Early Experiences
04:27 Specializing in Women's Mental Health
09:53 Working with the Hispanic Community
13:51 Exploring Brainspotting and EMDR
38:44 Session Structure and Client Follow-Up
40:15 The Importance of Therapeutic Relationships
42:36 Brainspotting and EMDR Techniques
43:41 Impact of COVID on Therapy
44:22 Understanding Midlife and Perimenopause
46:11 Emotional and Physical Challenges of Midlife
56:39 Addressing Anxiety and Depression in Midlife
58:46 Biological and Lifestyle Factors in Mental Health
01:10:30 Therapist's Personal Insights and Practices
01:17:13 Contact Information and Final Thoughts

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the say hello to your therapist podcast. I'm Dr. Bethany Valenti. Join me as we say. Hello to Keely Rodriguez, a licensed professional counselor supervisor who specializes in a host of presenting concerns and treatments, Including working with middle aged and perimenopausal women on trauma, anxiety and grief. She's also a clinician who provides both EMDR and brain spotting. We met with the plan to discuss her work with midlife women, but as you will hear, she mentioned her brain spotting and EMDR work, and I asked if we could take a detour on that topic first. So in the first part of discussing her clinical work, We explore brain spotting and how it differs from EMDR and how and when she uses them with her clients. In the second half of our conversation, we make our way back to working with midlife women, perimenopause, trauma, and parenthood. A quick note that the views that we express in this episode are our own and not a substitute for medical or mental health advice that you receive from a professional with whom you have a relationship. Don't forget to check out the show notes to learn more about Keely and the things we talked about. I hope you enjoy.

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hi Keely. Welcome. Thank you. can you tell me a little bit about what. Led you to be a therapist. So, I am a second career therapist. Yay. Yay. So I, took that little, test that everybody seems to take in junior year in high school or something like that. And, the two results were I could either be an actress or I could be a therapist, which I always thought was really weird. I. Wow. And I was like, okay, so what do I do with that? So I kind of put that in my back pocket. the ultimate question. Yeah, exactly. And talk about two very different positions to get. Yeah. so I, had a really great experience with a therapist in high school. I struggled with my own mental health journey. Mm-hmm. And, as almost every 16-year-old does. And I had this amazing woman, and as we were kind of wrapping up therapy, she said, you know, have you ever thought about being a therapist? So it was like that little seed and then. Career assessment seed. And then I went and did all sorts of different careers and politics and, Really? Yeah. I know you said pharmaceutical sales. pharmaceutical sales. I worked for an advertising agency. I did a lot of different stuff, but I always had like the two things. Number one, I could be good at this. And number two, there's this woman who really helped me. And so I got kind of in the space of like, I had been there, done that in so many different ways. And at 40 I went in and told my manager that I, wanted to go back to graduate school and give up my, six figure salary to do that. And he, immediately sent me the referrals for all the mental health services of that job through hr. He says, I feel like you need to think this through and are you doing okay? Are you sure? And I was like, no, no, I think I'm sure. And so I went back to graduate school and, oh, I'm so grateful I did. Mm-hmm. I did good things, but what I did before 40 and what I've done after has

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been

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life changing for me. That's so amazing. I love that. I love that so much. So you, so it was 40 when you made that switch. Okay. And so now we are, how far into it? 53 50. yes. So we're in it a while and that has been changing too, of course. Mm-hmm. And, like who I connect with, where I am in my life, and stuff like that. So it's been, it's been a really, really cool journey and I am so proud of the woman at 40 who said, I just gotta take a chance and do something different. Absolutely. This isn't working for him anymore. It's been, it's been fun and yeah, I'm done with it. I got what I needed out of it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Amazing. And so I'm just trying to think you had mult, like multiple careers it sounds like, of doing all sorts of stuff, working in advertising or pharmaceutical sales and everything, and it feels like very people adjacent Yeah. So, I found like that I could connect to people. Mm-hmm. Now that I reflect back in what I was doing a lot in, pharmaceutical sales since I was doing a lot of like, you know, a little counseling on the side But I always felt like I could connect to people in a way That was different, that I could, really help validate their experiences. I was doing all the therapeutic techniques. I just didn't know that there was a clinical name for it. Right. There's a word for it out there. This is legitimate. Yeah. Active listening, some stuff like that maybe. Yes, absolutely. And do you think I'm, I think I am just really struck by how your therapist. Saw it in you at 16. Yeah. I think that's really cool. Yeah. She, I think she saw that idea of being able to connect with other people to go deeper, to ask the questions, to have self-awareness of like, where does my stuff show up? Where is that other people show up? And, and so yeah. I I, that was a huge turning point for me to have somebody validate that. there's a talent sometimes, often when we have a talent, we just do it naturally. And we assume everybody else can do it. Naturally can do it. And that was my assumption as well. And until she said, Hey, wait a minute, not everybody sees the world the way you do. This is a gift. that helped me a whole bunch. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. And were you drawn to work with a 16-year-old? 'cause that's not where you're at now, so where did you start out? No, no. I, I, I loved working with, teenagers initially and I still, you know, will occasionally work with someone who's a little bit younger and stuff. Yeah. But, honestly, I felt like there were so many people that were much better at it than me. Mm-hmm. especially being a 40-year-old woman at the time. And it felt kind of like I, I came off giving sort of mom vibes a little bit. Yeah. And, I felt that because Also at 40 I have my own kids. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, all my like mom junk was stuff coming in, Yeah. but I really felt like there was a place where, women who were struggling with a whole bunch of like balancing things, everything kind of being hard, feeling really overwhelmed and stuff like that, that began to call to me a whole bunch. Mm-hmm. I'm a big believer in know what you do well, what you do to connect with people well and you don't have to be everything for everybody. It's okay. Yeah. Wow. Can you say it again? I just

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really

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really

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you don't need to be everything for everybody. Mm-hmm. And I think sometimes we get so excited coming out of graduate school, we feel like, oh, I wanna do this and do this and do this. But if we can take some time to step back, lots of times our client that we connect to, it's like they find us, they start to rise to the surface, they start to reach out and stuff like that. they found me in a way where I was like, okay, cool. We're in a groove. This is a good thing. Oh yeah. Can you tell me more about that? Yeah. So I started to notice that the stuff that, you know, I love working with women, by the way. nothing wrong with men. I am married to one and raised by one. They're fine. I read this really amazing book years ago that talked about how women, especially in impoverished communities, like in third world communities, that if they were received something from an organization, for their family, giving to women would give to the community as a whole. And that all Yes. Stuck with me, right? Yeah. and so here's how they found me is that. I would work with one woman and women often don't gate keep, especially in the communities that I work in. So if I help one woman, she tells her sister or her cousin or her bestie or her tia or something like that. Somebody's hearing about it. Yeah, absolutely. So, and over the years it's been so funny 'cause I'm like, oh, I met this client and this client introduced me to this client. It is the same exact thing with, just working with women, I would start to hear, oh, I have a client that I want you to meet. She's my girlfriend, or she's, you know, somebody that I went to college with and stuff like that. I love that. Yeah. And I heard you say Tia, do you work with Hispanic or Latina Yes. I, I do. So I, in Brownsville, I live in a community where it's about 90 percent Hispanic population. Mm-hmm. I'm married to a Mexican man, so I have been a, fly on the wall and been involved in the Hispanic community for a really long time. They have been so loving and grateful and, and kind to me. And so I get the honor of working with a lot of Hispanic women. so that's really cool. although I speak Spanish every day, I would never say that I am bilingual. My Spanish is great to like order at a restaurant. Right. You know, go on a vacation, but it is just chat about some stuff. Yeah, absolutely. But I definitely have a appreciation for the culture that, I, you know, not a lot of people get who have grown up in the family that I have. So I'm so grateful that they've allowed me to be in the community and allow me to help them as well. I used to live in New Mexico, so I like, just loved that part of the community. And now I'm in Ohio and you just, the, the percentages just are there in the same way, you know? Right, right. And the, the food too. Oh, yes. Oh yes. Amazing. It's amazing. And like just, yeah, the family culture, the focus on that is just so beautiful and so I can really just see how and community, like you were saying, just how it would really ripple out in that way especially. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm also like reminded, I've always said, so I grew up in, Germany for a few years, and I. Did speak German. I was fluent in German for some time, but came back to the US when I was like 13 or something like that. And so while I could pick it up again, I've done, you know, I've gone back to Germany to visit and. Plan on going again. So I'm gonna try and beef it up again, but like, if you try to put me in a therapy session Oh my gosh. To speak about deep emotions. Yeah. And I think I would struggle so much. So it is, it's amazing because my Spanish is good enough that I understand the words that are used. we talk a lot, so we kind of have a lot of Spanglish sort of things. Mm-hmm. So they'll flip back and forth, Spanish and English a whole bunch, or they'll do a lovely, because I think emotion can be described in Spanish so much better than in English. Really. Oh,

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yeah.

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Absolutely. So they may say something in Spanish and then they'll translate and I'll be like, I gotcha. I'm trying. Yeah. You for sure. So it's kind of fun to have those dynamics and to understand, that I appreciate it. I just don't want to miss anything. And that's the reason why I don't do it in a bilingual manner. There are people way smarter than me who can do that. Just, you know, more experienced, more immersive, maybe more native, Feeling like they could say something and have it just immediately translate for you. that is so nice. Or not having to explain every single thing. And I do stuff in terms of EMDR and brain spotting. And a lot of times I like to let the client speak in the language that feels more comfortable to them. And because it's, sometimes it's not about me needing to know Yeah. What the translation is, and that pulls them, especially in brain spotting out of, into more of a cognitive space. So if they need to be in Spanish, let's not change that. Don't mess with a good thing. Don't like translate for me. So that's kind of cool too. And I mean, how do you feel about spending a few minutes on brain spotting an EMDR? Or would you, are you okay with that Okay. I'm totally open to that. Yeah. I know that you're certified in both, correct. I know. Trained and certified in both, so like amazing. I haven't had anyone speak to EMDR yet, but I'm certain I will at some point. But I would love, if you don't mind to speak a little bit, I personally had never heard of brain spotting until I went into private practice. Yeah. because people were like talking about, I was getting into fields where people were talking about, oh, here's what I offer. Like here's what I make sure you put this on your website, or different things like that. And I was like, brain spotting. Interesting. I don't know what that is. And so you're the first person who I met who kind of like explained it. Uhhuh Uhhuh. and so now I'll try and go off of what I remember from your explanation. Sure. You can like jump in there. So, EMDR, eye movement desensitization therapy, and reprocessing. Reprocessing. I always forget what the R is. I always do. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then, that, you know, we can go and, hopefully go in more depth into this with somebody else in another episode, so we don't have to stick on that. 'cause I don't want you to explain everything. Yeah. But like, I remember you saying, so EMDR, you know, you're processing trauma by like getting stimulation on both sides of your brain while kind of re-experiencing whatever is the target concern of mm-hmm. Tr And it can be trauma, but it doesn't necessarily have to be, it could be other things, correct? Mm-hmm. Okay. Brain spotting was birthed from. EMDR. Mm-hmm. So the, Dr. David Grant, who was the inventor of Brainspotting, was a trainer to teach EMDR, so is very well versed in EMDR. And, he just discovered how to start to do E-M-D-R a little bit differently. Mm-hmm. So rather than doing the, eye movement quicker, he slowed down the process a little bit more, and then he worked with one particular client who, he found that when he slowed down enough. He would notice her eye reflexes, and there was a particular spot where her eyes would kind of jump a little bit, have like a reflex in a particular spot. So rather than having her do bilateral, he just had her focus on that one spot, allowing her brain to just kind of see what comes up in that particular spot. And it. Really allowed her to go deeper about a particular situation and what was linked to what they were working on at the time. it seems like it was that simple. she was a professional ice skater. She was working on a particular jump and she just had a sticking point where she could not get past it When they found the brain spot to help her process, apparently she went into a lot of her own family trauma and how ice skating had impacted her family and parents' relationship and stuff like that. So, although it was about being stuck doing this performance. particular action. It was linked to all of this other stuff, so she was able to process it deeply, and I believe that she called Dr. Grant afterwards, within a couple of days, if not Right away and told him, Hey, after this processing something happened, I felt so much different and I was able to do the jump over and over again like there was no problem. Oh, wow. So that'll get your attention real fast. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, he's amazing. He is still training people and still practicing and stuff like that, so it's so great that Still be taught by him, but that was the beginning of it. And he has written several books about it And stuff like that. so let me tell you the explanation behind getting EMDR certified and Brain spotting certified 'cause that would love that. That's really helpful. Yes, please. So, I worked in residential treatment for, internship and then, postgraduate school work was in residential treatment for both men and women. And, really, really intense treatment, situation. This was not their first rodeo. On average, it was their fifth to seventh time that they had been in treatment. Okay. And, lots of dual diagnosis. so I noticed just being observant is that a lot of times people, and not unusual to any of us as clinicians, but a lot of times people were really traumatized by things that had happened in their past that they had struggled with. And the substance use was just a way to like survive Right. To, to numb what was going on in their past and all of that Absolutely. Stuff. Yeah. But the struggle was as you take people off of these substances, it got really, really wacky and really tough because all of this trauma that had been. Suppressed, all of a sudden it was coming up to the surface. Yeah. And, so that I was like, oh my gosh, we were doing so much cognitive behavioral therapy and, and nothing was moving. Even if it was trauma informed, informed cognitive behavioral therapy. So that's why I started looking for EMDR, sort of, I was like, golly, there's got to be a better way, or at least a different way to support this. so learned everything I could about EMDR. Really had some great experiences and stuff like that, took that into private practice. But the challenge sometimes, this is my own personal opinion. Right, right. That's your opinion. We're not going for any professional endorsements or any ads here. but the challenge with the EMDR, I found. Is if somebody has complex or layered trauma. So they've got stuff from, childhood, family of origin stuff, and then life happens and they've got layers and layers of that. It kind of felt like a game of whack-a-mole. With the EMDR, it would be like one thing pops up, we would work on that, then another thing would pop up and we would work on that. And it was like frustrating to the client. I was getting like, oh, what can I do here? Mm-hmm. And I learned about brain spotting. Where brain spotting. You don't have to go from one traumatic memory to the next. You can process a relationship. So maybe like a dysfunctional relationship with mom and this person is in their late thirties or early forties. Yeah. If we tried to process everything that had happened. I quite frankly, don't have enough time on this earth to do that. Yeah. But if we processed it as an umbrella with brain spotting, things started to shift in magnificent ways. And, that was really cool. That's amazing. Like, and so it really sounds like EMDR could help with some people a hundred percent for that you were working with to a point. Yeah. But if it went beyond into a certain level of complexity, for instance. Yeah. it just wasn't, it wasn't getting all of it. It was kind of like, I'm almost like, the analogy I'm coming up with is when you're trying to like, get a tumor, you know, out. You know, and if you don't get it all, that's not good, you know? Right. And so for some people, like maybe EMDR can get the whole thing. absolutely. And then for some people brain spotting, we need the whole umbrella and we need to get in there and get it all out. No doubt. I have this really cool painting in my office that has a bunch of spray paint hearts on it. Mm. And so the way I like to think about it is, we want to start to put a white coat of paint on top of all the hearts. Okay. And that's brain spotting. So we're just gonna paint for a little bit and then we're gonna stand back and see what's still coming through. We might need another coat, a paint. Or we might go, you know what, that pink heart right there, we need to give a little love to that. And maybe that's an EMDR target. So rather than being in a box of like, I either do this or this, I'm like, I do whatever we need to do to make this client feel better. And you've used both like you, you really like blend it together then a hundred percent. I don't. Oh, you're selling me on this? 'cause I was wondering, I was like, I'm gonna get trained to do EMDR, but she's kind of selling me on brain spotting here for a minute, at least for some people. But if I could use both, that would be wonderful. Yeah. So I'm not, I won't do 'em at the same time. Yeah. To collaborate with my clients and say, okay, what do you think? It sounds like this one memory is really still standing out, or, you know, with brain spotting where it's like, it doesn't really mean, it doesn't feel as heavy emotionally. Mm-hmm. Or physically, I don't think we need to do the EMDR. So I like to do brain spotting first. Yeah. It's a one event thing, like a little more cut and dry. I was, I had a car accident. Car accident. Yep. Or I was, you know, there was, sexual assault. Right. You know, a one time event. Yeah. I'll go there with EMDR. If not, we'll go brain spotting and then we will reevaluate. See where we go. Yeah. Do you ever find that after that initial coat of brain spotting that they're, that that's kind of enough that they're like, I actually feel so much more able to function or cope now that I can move into either more traditional talk therapy or feel a little more resolved for a while? Or do, do you find that usually something's either popping up or that we need another coat? I, I definitely see that when I say, and let me make sure I clarify. Yeah. When I say coat, it might be. Eight sessions on. Yeah. That's not a one time thing. Yep, yep. Right. Let's be clear about what a coat entails. A coat across the image is eight sessions. We are layering this. Yes. We're layering this down. Yes. Going in strokes, broad strokes, over eight sessions. Absolutely. But, but do I think that there are sometimes where people do enough of that, that they don't feel like they need that, laser focus that EMDR provides? Absolutely. Okay. So, I just like the, the, you know, the flexibility, the fluidity of it. Mm-hmm. And stuff like that. Yeah. That's so nice. I'll just ask one more question about it. Sure. I guess one, but two parter. It's either one questions or two questions, however you wanna phrase it. I guess the first part would just sort of be, how do you like to explain it to your clients of like selling it, of like what it's gonna look like, and then maybe just, yeah, just sort of talking about what it would look like when you come into the room, just. You know, for someone who might be listening to this and be like, what does that even mean? Yeah, yeah. So, you don't do either one of these things like initially Right, right. Not out the gate. Hello, use this light thing or listen to this music, hold these sensors. Yes. You gotta trust me first. some of that I think is really important 'cause and by the way, I don't use anything that I haven't done on myself. Oh, love that. Yeah. You're like, wait, don't do it on myself. Yes, I have a therapist. you've had a professional do it on yourself. You haven't just sat there with him and been like, this is fine. You know, my clients will be fine. No problem. Yeah. You've done the work is what you're saying? I'm always my first Guinea pig, right? Yes. And multiple, multiple times because I have spent as much time on the couch as I have in the therapist seat. I think that that's incredibly important. So I always tell clients that just level set that for sure. So I can tell you from a client perspective how I approached it and how I felt as well. Well, as a clinician. Thank you. So, yeah, with, with EMDR, there are several sessions that you have just to kind of set things up so you have like a, a protocol that feels safe, you know, what to expect, and stuff like that. So at a minimum, you're gonna do an initial intake with any therapist, just so that they get to know you. you'll do, what we call a treatment plan. And then we start to do some really good grounding techniques to use in EMDR. So you're probably not gonna do EMDR for at least four, maybe even five sessions. So that you just feel really comfortable. Yeah. I want clients to select the targets that they want to work on. Mm-hmm. And then put them in order. We want to have consistent routine. Mm-hmm. No changes. Mm-hmm. No, like. Oh, we're going to throw this thing into the mix. Yeah. No shakeups, If something changes, we wanna talk about it well ahead of time. Yeah. Or work through it. Yeah. Absolutely. So the way I talk about it in terms of clients is I carry around a big pink plastic brain that has two halves to it. Mm-hmm. And I explain how there are three different parts of our brain. And Dan Siegel, I don't know if you're familiar with the hand model of the brain. Yes. So, Dr. Dan Siegel had a hand model of the brain, so I don't have my big pink brain, so I'll show it to you. So here's kind of the brain stem, right? Okay. So just. Respiration movement, balance, flexibility, all those sorts of things. Yeah. For, for those of our listeners, she is holding a fist up with her fingers, over her thumb and ge to her li wrist and that kind Yeah. Representing that brainstem. Right. Where like basic, like we need that to live like Right. That regulates all of our body system, right? Yeah, absolutely. To keep going. Mm-hmm. So second portion of the brain is the mid-brain area, right? Mm-hmm. She's opened her hand and showed her thumbs. I feel like our audio people need this. Yes. Yep, yep. Yeah. So she's basically, if you know, what is that sign language? Is that a b in sign language? Yeah. Or whatever. You put the thumb over your, so if you picture that. So that's more the, what we call the limbic system, the midbrain area. lots of emotions are stored here. Mm-hmm. And often traumatic memories, memory stuck in this place. Right? Yeah. Hippocampus is in there, right? Yeah. After that, that memory. Fear and all that stuff is in there. Yeah, the amygdala, so our, yep. Amygdala. Alarm system in our brain and stuff like that. And then you wrap those fingers around and this is our neocortex. So all the bumpy parts of our brain, all the pretty parts that we see. That's the pretty much the bridge. Visual part of the brain when you see the brain. On top. Lots of logic and reasoning are Up here as well. And then if you look at my first finger here That's more like, prefrontal cortex, executive functioning, all of that sort of good stuff. if anybody has teenagers, that is like, it's not, it's still working, it's still cooking, it's still still cooking. And, you know, I, I'm really seeing these days, 27 to 30, it starts to really come along and Bless you. It's like, and being back in the toddler phase is what I've heard. I, I'm right there with you. But it does come in online, so Yes. No hope is lost. It's on its way. Yes. It's on its way. So we're walking around with a fully intact brain during the day. Okay. No problem. So then. Say something triggers us, triggering us. Can be sight, smell, it can be a sound on the radio, it can be a body sensation. So many different things. Yes. As we get triggered, our neocortex where logic and reasoning happen mm-hmm. Go offline. It's totally out the window. Like, because it goes straight to those. It goes deep in there. So that's where we flip into fight, flight, freeze. Or fawn. Depending on how we have managed in the past and everything like that. And that's how our, our nervous system can get hijacked big time. that's the, that's like you're keeping yourself safe. Like your instinct Yep. Then when we calm down, right? Mm-hmm. It comes back online. Hmm. Okay. and you get to judge yourself for all the things that you did with the Yes. Hindsight of like, oh, I know that just because that song came on, that's not be that my father is coming after me again, or whatever it is, you know? Right. so part of that, and I wish that, This neocortex would talk more to this limbic system. And there is some really good research that says that as you do EMDR and brain spotting, that there becomes a really good pathway between you can establish a pathway. Ooh, yes. So they could talk better. Yeah, they can talk better But, I love to use the example, and this is what I use with clients. If you've ever gotten called in from your supervisor or some sort of boss, and instead of being able to defend yourself, you find yourself either arguing back really aggressively or freezing. That's a lot what women do sometimes. Mm-hmm. Or just really shutting down. Mm-hmm. And it can feel very upsetting because you just stand there and can't defend yourself. Yes. Then you're, because you're in this space. On your way home. Mm-hmm. You're driving home and all of a sudden you're like, why did I not say this, this, this, and this? Because you couldn't access logic and reasoning at that point. So what we try to do in the EMDR is we try to get some of the memories, the traumatic memories that are kind of hanging out here. Mm-hmm. Like a bunch of in that core, like emotional Yep. Survival state. Yeah. And we try to help process them enough so you don't feel so hijacked here. So you can remain. More in an intact state where logic and reasoning is hanging out there. Or you, you do have the flip, but you can come back with Yeah. So more flexibility to manage it. Yep. Yep. You're able to come back online a little better and be like, oh yeah. So like you might even still be in the room still when you can respond to your boss or whatever. Right. or, and maybe still at. work and be like, Hey, let me just come back a second or let me take care of myself or whatever. Yeah. you can then feel like you are more in control or more resourceful or whatever that is. Absolutely. So that's the reason why if you notice something just gets you so active and so triggered. And sometimes we can't link it back to, oh, okay, this is why I got triggered May maybe. Mm-hmm. But you just notice that that's happening in your body. Mm-hmm. So consistently that, that's a place where we get curious and look at maybe there's some deeper work that I need do around this particular relationship or this traumatic memory that may have happened. And so sometimes just explaining all of that really validate. A client's experience because you're right, there can be a lot of guilt and shame about why can't, why do I flip out or why do I freeze during? Yeah. Well you're even talking about moms being sort of that pillar of the community like, or women being the pillar of the community. So that's moms, that's partners, that's all of that. And so it could ripple effect of just picturing a mother be like, why did I just yell at my kid? You know, all the time. Absolutely. I've never done that. Continue snapping at my partner. Yes. So it's just really normal and like we yell at our kids or snap at our partners. 'cause life is hard and women are balancing a million different things. Or sometimes if we dig a little bit deeper and get curious about it, we realize there might be something else to this. So, leaning in with curiosity rather than like shame and guilt. I think it is, it is what you have to have in doing this work. And yeah, I get to see really cool and witness really cool miracles that have, I know we just have the best job. I feel like we get to see such amazing stuff. it's hard, but, you know, we really love it at the same time. Yeah, it's, it's such an honor. I do wanna go back to something that you said earlier about. maybe like what it looks like in the room. Sure. And then we can transition back to the women and the midlife stuff that we wanna talk about. Of course, of course. So the way that it looks in the room is that we already have a determined thing that we want to work on, right? so we kind of have our game plan. So I'll do like a five minute Hey, let's just check in, see how we're doing right now, and then I'll help unless there's something that comes up. And then if there's something that comes up, we all good plans, we set aside to address the thing in the room. But if there's not, then I'll say, Hey, last time we talked about here's what we wanted to work on today, is that still something that you're interested in? And, then we bring that up. I might ask like. What do you think when you think about these things, is there, on a scale of 10 to zero, 10 being the worst and zero being neutral, not good nor bad, where is it on the scale? Where do you feel it when you think about it in your body? Are there, any emotions? Because there can be lots of different emotions connected to this. And, with EMDR, we also look for a negative belief. I sometimes it's an I am statement or I am not statement. Mm-hmm. And, I'll have clients have like little cheat sheets, so we'll get the feelings wheel out. If they can't kind of figure it out, we'll do the prep work. Sometimes that prep work is done already. And so with E-M-D-R-I particularly prefer to use, little pulses, which are like the little, vibrator that you get when you're waiting for your table at Yeah. Yes, I have clients use those. They vibrate back and forth in their hands, and so the client can keep their eyes open or closed, whatever feels safe. We'll have them think about whatever we brought up. And for a few seconds, depending on the severity of the memory, I'll have them just play a movie in their mind or think about the thing. And that can go for 30 seconds, 45 seconds, a minute, whatever the client needs. Then we'll stop and check in. Sometimes they wanna talk about what they visualize and sometimes they wanna remain silent. And I think that's so important too, because sometimes telling the story again is so painful. And so then we're gonna do that several times. It can be as many as 10 to 15 times during session, always if we need to take a break. Or stop the client is in charge of saying when. And then towards the end of the session, I'm constantly saying, okay, we're moving towards this. We'll slow down enough that we will turn the pulses down. We'll, have a predetermined, container and safe place or some sort of resource. So we set the difficult stuff aside and then allow the client to, end on a really safe visualization that feels good within their body. And then, I just tell them that we can talk about whatever they feel like they need to talk about, and then I'll follow up with them afterwards within like. 24 hours just to check in it and see how they're doing via text and knowing that they're gonna be processing again, continuously for the next 24 to 48 hours. And then they come back into session and some clients wanna talk the next session, really talk about what they notice. Some clients are like, wow, that was really great, let's do it again. Mm-hmm. So we continue to do it hoping that, that, on that scale of pain, that it starts to slowly reduce down. Yeah. Yeah. And this process is so intricate and so just like rich with so much emotion and vulnerability. And I think it really speaks to why you don't just jump into it for one, but also like, as part of that. That you need to have that relationship. Relationship is just so key for any therapeutic experience. But if you're gonna be stepping into a space that is this level vulnerable, then you wanna know like that the person that is there with you is there with you a hundred. It's gonna hold you safe. 'cause I think we, we as therapists know how much re-traumatizing. Can happen, in just like the retelling or the re-experiencing or anything. And sometimes that's even worse than the actual event. And we don't wanna, we don't, we don't wanna do that. We're not trying to be a part of that if we can't. So if someone goes in there wanting, be like, all right, let's go going, I'm like, ready to, to make a change. It's like, I, I know. Let's slow, let's slow down, get, you know, not just gonna tell you what to do right now anyway. Yeah. No, no, no. And I think that, um, yeah, it, it, and that's part of it too, is retelling of the story can be so painful. Mm-hmm. So I let clients know I'm, you know, I'm good with silence. Yeah. That's what feels safe to you, then let's do that. Mm-hmm. You know, I know you're gonna be processing. Now most people who initially want to be silent eventually feel. Like, I've earned their trust enough that they can share little glimpses with me, and that's okay too. sometimes people don't wanna share because they don't want to traumatize me. Mm-hmm. And, and I've worked with a lot of first responders and stuff like that. And So you so many caretakers. Yes, yes, yes. And I'm like, oh, I thank you so much. But I, I do my own work. Mm-hmm. I think if you do trauma therapy like this, it's essential. That we do our own work. Mm-hmm. So that I can hold space openly. Yeah. And I'm not bringing my own stuff into it or stuff in the session Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brain spotting. Just to give you, it's the same sort of dynamic. We're just focusing on, like, I'll show you a little pointer that I extend. Oh. That is a brain. It's a brain. It's a brain. So I have this, I prefer not all brain spotting therapists do this. I prefer to use bilateral music as well. Mm-hmm. It seems very grounding. So, I'll have them listen to this and then whether we're online or in person, we can find the brain spot. Okay. And do all sorts of cool things there. Yeah. And so you feel like you're able to do it online and in person? Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I have personally done brain spotting in person as well as online, so I know, that it translates really, really well in both. I also do EMDR online and I use a software that helps me do that. I've seen it. I didn't know that existed until I went to like a little training a couple years ago and it was just like, oh, look at this little thing. It totally works. Absolutely. So of course there's software now, I mean, thank God for COVID because it, really charge that forward. A lot of progress technology wise with what we could provide. absolutely. You know, we're not endorsing COVID, but there are certain things that it did just like in all tragedy, We don't always wanna be brought forward, but sometimes we got some good stuff out of it. Like the work-life balance stuff. Like how much we've been able to figure out how to adapt to online, even just as therapist. Absolutely. So yeah, out of every tragedy, there's generally some silver something, some little silver lining. Yeah. even if we don't love it, we don't have to like, it. We didn't have, that's not how we had to wanna get there. And, you know, we're not celebrating what happened, but, yeah. are you ready to talk about your midlife anxious women or just midlife anxiety? Yes, we were recently in a group chat where I think you were. Talking a little bit about midlife stuff. and some of us were like, do. I count like, you know, like what? Yes. And you shared very lovingly, here's the range, the age range mm-hmm. That I think Fits. And, you know, damned if I'm not in that range, can you share it for, for those of us who may or may not be sure where, where we fall in terms of midlife, are we there, are we not there? So I think midlife is really charged. it's very, very charged these days. Right. And, so when I think about it, I think leaning into women who are struggling with, perimenopause or menopausal symptoms, can definitely feel like a really different way emotionally. We see so much about hormone replacement therapy and all of that sort of stuff. but there's also an emotional component To all of it for sure. So perimenopause, roughly can come on as early as 35. Some women are not in that space and they're still having children and everything like that, and that is amazing. those are the earliest Signs that the experts are saying. And then on the other side, you can go through menopause at 50, 55, even closer to 60. So there's this different frame, but I find that women who are dealing with that are also really struggling with

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different

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things in terms of work life balance, Find ourselves really, sandwiched between taking care of aging parents as well as raising kids or, you know, yeah. Kids that are launching into adulthood and stuff like that. And then a lot of the women that I talk to have professional careers, and it just seems like a time where you got physical stuff going on and then you got everybody screaming your

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name.

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name. And it feels like a lot. Yeah. I definitely felt that just coming from all directions basically. Yeah. I am. I recently started hearing the term perimenopause a lot more. when I was growing up, I feel like people just said, oh, did you go through menopause yet? You know? Mm-hmm. Like, I remember my mom kind of talking about it with her friend of like, oh yeah, it's happening, or whatever. Mm-hmm. Couldn't even tell you what age that she was at, per se. but I don't feel like I started to hear perimenopause that specific term until like within recent years. So I don't know if it's newer, but I did some Googling recently when we were hearing a little more about it. my understanding is that menopause really is the state that you're in, almost like after perimenopause, like me, perimenopause kind of describes. The process of your body going through the change. Mm-hmm. And then if you are in menopause, your menses have stopped. Basically. You're done at that point, right? Correct. And so similar to like when we start our periods in our lives kind of get turned upside down. Yep. Like it, it's starting to peter out or do whatever it is, the body's like whatever, And that's where we get kind of more of what people used to joke about when we were growing up or when I was growing up, maybe about like, oh, she's just going through menopause or whatever. and that there is actually a distinct stage that that is, and that is, there's a word for it now called perimenopause. Am I crazy? That is absolutely, absolutely the truth. And I think that there is, you know, there, there hasn't been a whole bunch of research done. I recently heard an amazing podcast with, Mary Claire Haver, Dr. Mary Claire Haver, who, has written numerous books On, menopause really talks about how there's so much research done for any type of. Health for women, and only like 10% of that research is actually allocated to women over 40. Wow. and that's once we actually get to the women. Right. 'cause the, especially women stuff can be very understudied. Yeah, absolutely. I saw your hands, you're like, don't even get me started. Right. It so Fraction. Fraction of a fraction of a fraction So it just gets worse and more and more diluted. and then to have, the study that really talked about, that shut all of the, research down in terms of, hormone replacement therapy that was done in the nineties. It stopped the options for women mm-hmm. And so I think we're just now kind of reem embracing this whole thing in terms of what does perimenopause look like? What does menopause look like, and, there is help and there are people who specialize in this and stuff like that. My like big old soap box that I like to jump on top of and wave my hands dramatically about is not only do we have all of this physical stuff going on, but ladies there, this is a incredible time where there is so much overwhelm and stress emotionally and. Lots of times, how trauma coordinates to this is lots of times when women are in a space where they're now, maybe they have a family. Maybe they're in a safer environment than they were growing up. Maybe they're just in a safer space with themselves and stuff like that. And things start to slow down just a tiny bit. You're not in the major crisis mommy mode of having littles. All of a sudden trauma can come a'knockin'. Yeah. It likes to just rise to the surface. It's like, remember me? Yes. Your body was heightened for totally other reasons right? Now that you're starting to chill out, like, I just wanna remind you, you've been through some stuff. Yeah. And so I get a lot of clients who are like, where in the world does this thing come from? Mm-hmm. That was 20 years ago. I'm not having any problems. And then all of a sudden it's like, holy cow. Yeah. How did that Yeah, Hormones like to be mean like that too. They're like, you know, I'm not even bothered by something and then suddenly it's my period and this is when I get to process those feelings, you know, like, yes. I imagine that adds to it as well. Hormones right away. It does. Also, there's something about if you have children, it happens all the time. Lots of times women will see that their child and that will connect to something that they went through. Literally. Can you tell I have little kids? Yeah. When, there have been so many times where I see like my kids like having some of their meltdowns and I'm like, this is touching me. Like emotionally in a place, like I'm feeling a nerve struck. like the amount of how much our children put a mirror up to ourselves is just fascinating. A hundred percent. They are like, this is the work you shall do on yourself. So, And there, and there are women who have had, instances where they've really blamed themselves for things that have happened in their past, and all of a sudden they see their own daughter who's 12, 13. Yeah. 14 or 15. And then they realize, oh my gosh, I've been blaming myself for years, but what would my daughter feel like Yeah. If she was exposed to the same things. Yeah. So trauma comes up a lot. okay. Attachment wounds come up a lot because mm-hmm. When you go through menopause. Broad strokes, right? Not everybody. Mm. But you go through menopause, you are like, how should I say this? Your give a crap a meter really drops pretty low. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, my favorite influencer right now on Instagram is the, you know, the we Don't Care club for. I love her so much. she just came up on my thing and I was like, if I find this funny, somebody who is struggling with perimenopause menopause right now is gonna like, it's gonna go even deeper. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So, and the, and the thing about that is you have that happening in your body. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you're like, I'm so done. Like I am no longer here for it. But

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then

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there have been these patterns of people

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pleasing, perfectionism

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provin' your worth. And so that cognitive dissonance between those two spaces can really show up big time. So it's like, these are no longer working for me. I'm not here for it, but I don't know how to transition to a different way of living. And so that also shows up with women in that, time That's really fun to like, okay, let's think about what we wanna handle it now. Right. And I'm struck too 'cause there have been, I've worked a lot with the college age population and I wonder if the timeframe lines up of like how the level for we do not care and the energy that they have for something why that could even like, trickle down to like some of the kids that I'm seeing. 'cause they're just like, sometimes the parents like. Maybe mothers are just like, yeah, you know, you're just like, really? Like, that's how you respond. But if they don't have, if they don't have the capacity, then that, that puts a whole other layer on it. You know? You don't wanna just be like, oh, she's probably just perimenopause, but like, maybe, but maybe there, there can be lots of different layers to it, for sure. And so. I think all those things are really, really important to look at and to say, Hey, you know, getting some support around these things are, are really important during this time you know, I have a blog on, my website and I call it therapy for Grown Ass Women. Yes. You know, ma'am, 'cause this is therapy before, like no coping skills. No. Like, okay, five big, deep breaths, don't gimme me. No. Yeah. Don't come at me with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, most women, these people have been like helping Yes. Like households do that. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. They're like, absolutely. I teach this to people. Right. If I need it, fine, we'll get there, but do not start with that. Don't come at me with this. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that's important to. Be with a therapist who's right there too with you, you know? Mm-hmm. I totally understand the menopausal changes 'cause I am in it and I share that very openly with clients. 'cause I think it's validating to go, I can get it. I know what you're talking about. I also think it's really validating to understand what it's like to be juggling career and family and all of that sort of stuff as well. I have a big whiteboard in my office and a lot of times we just take an expo marker and start like really reflecting on all of this stuff that is in their mental load and what they're handling and then sit back and go, okay, let's talk about self-compassion 'cause goodness sakes look at all this. Yeah. Yeah, that's full. That's often where I start with clients because when you do it well and you keep on going one foot in front of the other, lots of times it just feels like this is normal life and it's not. And there are ways to adjust to that. Hm. What else do you feel like comes up? do you feel like anxiety is just like one piece of all of this? Or do you feel like anxiety tends to look a little different once you're in this midlife? I have to say anxiety looks really different. So does depression. Mm-hmm. So, everybody that I talk to, Down to a T says I'm anxious. And that's generally what people come in for is okay, I'm struggling with anxiety. Yeah. But, it always makes you laugh because I'll have clients who say I'm struggling with anxiety. Keely, I do not have time for a nervous breakdown. I don't have time for this. I don't have time to get, nice pedicure or to get my roots done. I do not have time for a nervous breakdown. so it makes me giggle because I get it, And there can be healing without a nervous breakdown. That's what we're trying to get past, right? Mm-hmm. so part of it is like, okay, what's on the whiteboard? What's the anxiety? What are the symptoms? What are you noticing? Heart palpitations, difficulty sleeping. Is that menopause? Or is that anxiety? So I love to kind of go through and try to discover what is biological, what is Emotional and stuff like that. then trying to figure out, okay, we're gonna play like a Tetris game together. So it might start out with like, where can we find wiggle room mm-hmm. To give you a little bit more space. and that's not a spa day or you know, a women's retreat, which I love both, but sometimes that's just gotta, we've gotta find some daily stuff. So that's where the anxiety comes up. And then obviously if we're working with people pleasing or perfectionism or anything mm-hmm. Like that, that's where we go, kind of down to that attachment wound stuff. Yeah. Get, get all up in that. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That's perfect. the biological piece, do you find that, 'cause I had an interaction with a client for a while, and I, there was a referral where someone was really in the thick of it, but did not feel comfortable with the medications. So some of what. We were sitting with was like, this is kind of part of the process. And what if there's something out there that can help you feel better? Like how do you navigate that? Is there a part of that's like, it just sort of like, just try to take care of you as best we can if you don't wanna like take the meds? Are you referring people what is your process with the biological stuff with that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think this is really important. This is where I'm really passionate and, and even like, bringing in some of my pharmaceutical knowledge Yeah. That, and then that's, so I like to level set expectation. Okay. I like to have a conversation during intake. Are you open to medication if we, yeah. That that's important. Are you? Not, either way. There's no shame in that and we honor what your needs are, but I am very open about if we get to a point where I do feel like medication is important, in terms of an evaluation, I'll be real honest about that as well. I refer to a female psychiatrist. Nothing against the guys, but the psychiatrist that I refer to, she really takes the time to listen. She's also a woman who's a wife and a mother herself, so she really understands all the obligations Mm-hmm. I love working, with. OBGYNs and nurse practitioners and PAs. So if the client feels comfortable, I get so much information that could be valuable to the Practitioners if we can do a release of information so that I can send them a treatment summary so they may be able to get more, information about how things are affecting the client. I think that's. Awesome. That's that 360 kind of coordinated care So I try to have good resources for that. if it's hormone kind of stuff going on, whether it's psychiatry and doing an evaluation, and then I tell the client, look, just because you get an evaluation or an opinion from a physician or a practitioner doesn't mean you have to take the medication. Right. It's just to know that there are options out there. Mm-hmm. But I am also very, very straightforward about things that can impact or help when you're struggling with emotion and things like finding good quality sleep. If that needs to be medically supported or supplementally supported, then those are things to Ask your practitioner, trying to move your body. Right now we need about six hours of sleep not to dip into kind of a anxious, irritable or depressive state. And lots of times with women going a million miles an hour, six hours is really hard to cobble together. Some biologically are having a hard time getting that, like sleeping to, like their body's not letting them. Right. So that's why it's important to lean into that in six hours is not obtainable right now. Mm-hmm. Also moving your body. So we need, there's really nice research that says we need about 6,000 steps a day to be able to stay above the line on things like anxiety, irritability, and depression. So, that's another thing. And bringing in the pharmaceutical side of things, we have more neurotransmitter receptor sites in our stomach than in our brain, so, whoa. Yeah. So a lot of people say you are what you eat. I say actually you feel what you eat.

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Hmm.

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Hmm. So, if we can have more whole nutritious foods, I'm not shaming anybody. Right. I'll like Chick-fil-A sandwich. Not here to shame. but where can we add in some stuff that's gonna Yeah. and so I also refer out in terms of somebody who's a registered dietician who might support that as well. So I want clients to know that. Even if you don't take medication, there are things that we really need to get on board, maybe baby step by baby step, that could make a huge difference or that could impact things significantly in the opposite way. you know, I see so much online about women and drinking wine and stuff like that. If you are depressed, that's like throwing gasoline on a fire, baby. It is not gonna make things better at all. Yeah. It often makes things So really, noticing those things a lot as well. So I think that there's a lot of culture around wine as kind of therapy or wine is like, oh, I've had a hard day, I deserve this, or anything like that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then, and you know, there's really strong research that drinking wine or alcohol can severely impact our sleep patterns as well. And then our sleep patterns aren't great and, you know, you're picking up the goldfish that are in the car, or, you know, trying to wolf down a protein bar in between meetings or something like that. Then our food is off. And then when our sleep and our food are off mm-hmm. Then we don't wanna move our body. We just wanna get in our PJ's and binge on some Netflix. Yeah. it all adds up. And it's not like you have to do things perfectly. We don't need to be, we're not looking for fitspo, we're not looking for to be the wellness influence or anything. It really comes down to some of the most basic stuff. Move some, get good sleep, try and eat, balanced when you can. Yep. Absolutely. I mean, even like, I like to think of it like a grade in high school, right? Even 70 is passing. Mm-hmm. Right. Whoa. So it's not perfect. Yes. 70%. Yeah. And I think there's even research that shows that, like we only have that much control over it too. Like genetics is gonna take the take, take over. Like, we'll I think genetics is like 70% in terms of like body shape or like different types of stuff like that, for instance. we get told all sorts of things, but ultimately, like you said, yeah, we don't, we don't need to be a hundred percent. And when we get these perfectionistic like women who are doing everything, then they're like, what do you mean? So I think some of this is super empowering and this is a lot of what I talk to clients about in those first initial sessions. Because sometimes it feels like things are out of control. My anxiety is out of control and I'm like. Okay. We got stuff to, to be able to control. Like literally after your session today, you could probably do one thing that may make you feel A little bit better And I think that's really important. 'cause sometimes the noise is so loud, it's hard to remember. You just got something, you know, one thing that you can do that could begin to start to make you feel a little less anxious. Literally. There's so much to think about. And do you often work with anyone who's not getting enough to eat, for instance? are we at that kind of level sometimes of we need to go back to the basics of you need enough of all these things, you need enough sleep, you need, just enough movement. let's dial back the exercises that are, you know, two hours long. 'cause you feel like that's where the priority needs to be. Absolutely. And we talk a lot about, you know, that need for control and sometimes it feels better to lean into some of that as a way to feel like you do have some control in life. for real, and. I get it. Totally. Yeah. But, kind of playing with what's showing up, what's not working for you, what's your kryptonite, what's depleting you? And sometimes women who come in, I, I'm the first person who's asked them any of these questions, sometimes there're tears because they just haven't had somebody ask things like, you know, what, how do you have fun? What brings you joy? Stuff. What do you like to do? Because they're so very used to meeting the needs of other people. And it's like, look, I know this will work for everybody else, But let me ask you the question again. Do you like this? is it actually fun? Are you filling your cup? it might be okay that, you do a little bit of you, you check the boxes of what needs to get done and then can we give ourselves permission to just binge watch whatever it is that you like Yeah. You know, I even talked to a client recently who was like, I guess I have a lot of hobbies, but they're just not the kind that I always like to talk about, I've been video gaming a lot and I've been talking with people while I do it, and I've been, watching some movies and some shows. Like you're allowed to like those things, you know? Of course, of course. Is there anything that, you would want to share about kind of your midlife work that we haven't gotten to that I haven't thought to ask, for just really like to, you, you like to, highlight so it's not a crisis. Mm-hmm. It's not a crisis. The midlife crisis. Is that what you're Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a transition. Just like sometimes we need, support during transitions. Yeah. And that's what we talked about earlier, about working with teens. That can be a transition that feels really kind of funky and sometimes they need support, but it's not a crisis. It's just a new becoming and look, you know, when you go fast and furious, as most moms do. Then when things start to slow down a little bit, it can be really unsettling, especially if you have Adult kids that you're launching into that kind of adulthood space, whether they're going to college or are finding their own profession and stuff like that. And so, yeah. Sometimes women come in thinking, oh my gosh, I'm just a mess. This is a crisis, but it's not. And there can be so many cool things. And getting to know yourself in a different way. That you still have so much value and wisdom and so much life left to live. But it's not forever too. Like it, it's not forever. And if you do some really cool work, you can create a next chapter that is freaking amazing. But sometimes we just need a little support in the transition and that's okay too. Yeah. Love that. I love that. Are you up for our. Wrap up questions. Of course. Okay, so the first one, I just feel like relevant wise, I just really would love to know what is your, like your personal I, we do not care as you've gone through. Oh my gosh. I can give you the best example ever. So, yesterday, my husband and I drove five hours, home after seeing our daughter from college. And I had not taken a shower and I had a baseball cap on and no makeup. And I wanted to be on a conference call, and stuff like that. So I got in, introduced myself, put myself on pause, double check to make sure that I wasn't doing anything naked or anything like that. Mm-hmm. Put my hair in rollers because that's what you do when you're a southern girl and you haven't washed your hair in three days. So I put my hair up in rollers and then I got called on to be on video. No, no makeup, hair and rollers, all the things. And I was like. Boop, I do not care. Hello? I do not care. Hello. I don't care. And every here we are. I showed up, totally laughed about it and you have to understand. Mm-hmm. If I showed this clip to any client that I had, they would completely laugh and go, yep, that's Keely, that is who I am. Yeah. I'm just gonna show up authentically. Mm-hmm. And I think that's, I'm not gonna show up if I can't show up authentically. Yeah. And if that looks a little messy, well by God. Here I am. Yeah, you showed up. I showed up, yeah. Showed up. And I have very valuable things to say. Yes. With all of my hair and rollers So it does not change the contributions that you make. No. By any means. And so I know we talked about Texas. Is that where you're primarily licensed? Are you licensed elsewhere? Yeah, I'm licensed in Texas. Texas is so big that it'll Oh yeah. Keep me busy and stuff like that. Got the whole state. You're good. Yep. And do you have any openings right now? I do. I do have openings right now. and do you take insurance? I don't take insurance. I'm learning, to prioritize my

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own

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Energy level and stuff like that. Insurance can kind of be a bear in that way. Oh yeah. I'm giving that gift to myself these days. And I know that comes from a place of being privileged to

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do

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that. I did insurance for an extended period of time. Mm-hmm. And you're not gonna take care of me, so therefore You can take care You're in your non-insurance era so that you can give it back. Yeah, sure. Take that energy and put it elsewhere. And so your current fee is 150, 150, so that's a really good, average rate. And I do $200 for the initial intake. then 150 after that. Okay. And we've already said you're both online and in person. Correct? I'm online and in person. if you have health, savings accounts, a lot of companies do that. That's a lot of times how clients use those benefits to pay for private pay sessions. I use it myself, with my family as well. And so, that's also a really good way to help support that. Cool, cool. And what do you nerd out about? What do you tend to get? Like really into? Ooh. I am a wanna be like computer nerd a little bit. I dunno why, but I love like, I love, playing with websites. I created my own. I love everything learning about ai. the good, the bad, the ugly. It's stuff like that. I, I really find that stuff super interesting. That's amazing. Okay, cool. Super cool. This is why I ask these. I just love what people say. Yeah. Yeah. do you have any pets? I do. I have, three dogs. I have a Labradoodle, a a Aussie doodle and a very testy Cavalier King Charles Spaniel who's like 14 years old and, you know, really ornery doing his thing. What is something that you find comforting? The comforting thing that I love is watching people's resilience and seeing where they get to, because This is about holding space for people and letting them have space to process things So on days when I think like the whole world's going to hell in a hand basket, and there's a lot of those days, Mm-hmm. I remember that. There's so much hope and I get to witness it and that's pretty dang cool. And are you coffee or tea? I am straight up coffee with cream. I try to only do two a day, but they are religiously set at certain times of the day. They're there for a reason. there for a reason. One of the things I, still and probably will always do is I insist on doing sessions after five o'clock. Mm. it's really important to me because, mm-hmm. And I also do intensives with women because one of the things that's really important with this type of woman that I see is their schedules don't look like the typical therapy. So I really try to meet people where they're at and what their needs are. So I need a coffee at about four to four 30 or mama's not getting through. Not gonna, it's not gonna, not gonna do it. Not gonna make it. Absolutely. And what's your least favorite misconception about the work that we do? Mm. That it's easy? That you're just listening to people. Mm-hmm. that we aren't, we aren't vicariously traumatized. Mm-hmm. I think it is that anybody can do it. The bravest people that I know do trauma work Absolutely. And it's not easy. It's not for the faint of heart. And I wouldn't one the time that I've had sitting in the therapist chair. Hmm. I, yeah. I think we're just gonna end on that. I think that's good. Yeah.

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Keely, where can people find you? So, my website is keely rodriguez therapy.com. and my first name is spelled K-E-E-L-Y. And then on Instagram, I'm at Keeley Rodriguez. Therapist. you can find me either way there. And, I do a free 30 minute consultation over Zoom with potential clients so we can really check and see what's bringing you into therapy if I have the right specialization to help. And if I don't, I'll make sure that we find some good resources for you, to make sure that you get the support that you need. yeah, that's how I help. Thanks so much. And. Maybe we get to see more of you on your own podcast, I think. Yes, yes. in the works. Stay tuned. I do a lot of stuff on YouTube, so that's awesome. On, will be on the website as well. Okay, so look there. Yeah, love, love, love to teach and talk like I did today, and bite-size pieces for women who need a little bit of support.

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Keely Rodriguez, I love that. Thank you so much for your time today. Oh, I'm so grateful. Thank you, Bethany.