Training the future of funeral care with Kirsty Simmonds

In this episode of Before You Go, we speak with Kirsty Simmonds, National Sector Lead for Connect2FuneralServices, about the vital role training and apprenticeships play in shaping the future of funeral care.

Kirsty shares her journey into the bereavement sector, discusses the misconceptions surrounding apprenticeships, and explains how professional development is helping funeral businesses build confident, compassionate teams. We also explore the growing demand for personalised funerals, the importance of supporting professionals who encounter grief every day, and why it's time to challenge the taboos that still surround death and bereavement.

A thoughtful conversation about people, purpose, and preparing the next generation of funeral professionals.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hi everyone and welcome to Before You Go, the podcast brought to you by Weston Group and produced in partnership with Empika PR, where we explore life, death, grief, and the people who help guide us through some of life's most difficult moments. I'm your host, Matthew Brook, and in each episode I speak to people from across the bereavement sector, professionals, advocates, thinkers, and carers who are helping shape the way that we understand loss, remembrance, and what it means to support others at the end of life. Today's guest works in an area of the sector that is absolutely fundamental but often sits quietly behind the scenes, training and personal development. Kirsty Simmons is the National Sector Lead for Funeral Services at Connect to Funeral Services, a division of the opportunity provider, and their work focuses on developing and delivering apprenticeship standards specifically for the funeral sector, supporting roles such as funeral arrangers, operatives, funeral directors, and funeral mortuary technicians. Kirsty has been supporting the funeral sector since 2012, working with businesses across the UK to help them navigate apprenticeship standards, training frameworks, and workforce development. In short, helping ensure the people who care for families at their most vulnerable moments are properly trained, supported, and prepared for the realities of the work. Kirsty, welcome to Before You Go.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Welcome. Thank you for having me, Matthew. Nice to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Thank you. Kirsty, uh, always like to start at the beginning with guests. How did you find yourself working in the funeral sector? Because for many people it's not an obvious career path. It's not, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

And and to be honest, I kind of fell into it, if you can call it that, through working in adult social care. So one of my big passions in adult social care right from leaving school was the end-of-life part of it and supporting people through those last weeks, days, months, and the family that were then left as a result of that, by right from being 18, 19, and I'm 45 now, um, considering well what happens afterwards, you know, once my care stops. I was really fortunate to work for a great care home who said, Well, let's go find out, and we put some training on. And then I just got obsessed with it. Like, I c I can't believe, I couldn't believe, should I say, that there was this this industry, this sector where people really did care after my care stopped, and it wasn't just a a quick fix, it was an actual process and very personalised, and you know, nothing was exactly the same for everybody. And I just loved it, absolutely loved it. I loved the training bit of my job, so being fortunate to explore both parts of my roles and kind of bring them together and explore this industry that was out there. Absolutely amazing. So I would consider myself very lucky that I found that, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Um I do often say to people, when you were at school, think about the number of people that said to you that they wanted to work in either a funeral director's or a crematorium. And the chances are there was no one unless you're uh unless your family were involved in a funeral director's. Um, and it is I think you probably use the term correctly. I it's it's how I would I would uh describe it myself is that people fall into this industry and they either fall in love with it or they fall out of it quite quickly. And I think once you're in it, you're in it. Um and and fundamentally it becomes down to the fact that you are you know people are vocational and they want to look after people. The the the health and social care career has a lot of transferable skills into this industry, so um I'm not surprised that you've uh that you fell in love with it and you're you're still here. So you were originally asked to support a large funeral business, weren't you, with developing a training programme. So can you tell us what that experience looked like and how you ended up embedding yourself into the day-to-day reality of funeral services?

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Absolutely. So, because of my background working in an industry of care, I I got quite good at being able to work-based train people, and then realised there was also a role within that. And I understood assessment very well, so I understood that observing somebody doing a task that meant something to them, their industry, their organisation, their policies, and being able to transfer that into a tangible assessment that could show progression. I I I just was naturally quite good at doing that. I was also that boring person at work that really understood health and safety laws and things like that. So I could see process in personalisation, which I think the funeral sector embodies very, very well. There's process but there's personalization. They never felt like they were fighting to me, so I was very good at looking at that and coming up with an assessment for it. So then I was asked, as part of my role as an assessor back in the day, by a large funeral employer. We want to come up with some assessment, we would like our staff members to know that they're doing a good job. So, how do we have a start point, a middle point, and an end point? What would that look like in terms of assessment? And it was one of my strengths to be able to do that. However, I don't think that you can assess anything or work in an industry as an assessor unless you understand it nuts, bolts, good days, bad days, on calls, weekends, night, the whole thing you needed to be able to understand it. So I could give them the I can absolutely do that, but I want to excel at doing that for you. So, how about I come and work for you for a period of time and work in the different departments and see the back office, the front side of things, the customer facing, the good, the bad, everything, and then we can really find what those assessment points would look like. What's the realism of this? Because I could write on a you know piece of paper that this is what a good assessment would look like, but is that realistic? What are the opportunities to see this to show that you are competent and be doing it over a period of time so you're showing that consistency? So they're not just good at it once in one scenario, they can take what they know and understand and what they do and apply it into a variety of different ways because that is the funeral sector, none of it's the same. So they agreed, and I went through their induction, and then I just started working for them with my other organisation with an organisation, so they basically paid me to work for an agreed period of time, and and I was just hooked, absolutely hooked. So we did come up with writing the training, and this was pre-apprenticeship standard, so it was back in the day when there wasn't an apprenticeship standard for this particular sector. So we just wrote one for that organisation, a very large organisation, and that to me stood me in such good stead to be able to then head it up nationally. Now, for for that continuing with that organisation, but also lots of others, independent organisations as well as large corporates. The best thing that ever happened really was that they did create an apprenticeship standard, so and that's been written by employers, um, NEFD, SAFE have all come together and said this is the standard that nationally everybody should be working to if they've got this job role and that job role. And so everybody's playing now from a level playing field, and my role is then to support the rollout of that, and what does that look like for each business? You know, how do we take those?

SPEAKER_00 7:09

And kind of touching on the point that we made in the first um in the first question. So, apprenticeships people naturally assume to be for younger people and people entering the workplace, and we've kind of said, Well, you know, a lot of people don't talk about it at school and in secondary education and and maybe even further education. So, where where where do the where do these people come in from? Is it something is it a curiosity that that they have and it leads you to them? And do you, in your experience, do you have to work hard to bring people into the industry, or do you find actually people are a bit more forthcoming?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

It's very much a mixed bag. So I would say apprenticeships do carry this myth, especially for a sector like the funeral sector that didn't have them from the word go. As such, they might have had the diplomas and things like that. They do have a oh well, it's for I'm just trying to think, pick some words now that people have actually said to me, Well, isn't that if you're green as grass? Isn't that if you wet behind the ears? So I think they kind of come with this little bit of a myth anyway, that the for a certain group of people like new to work, I would say. And and that is simply not the case. Our oldest apprentice is 68, possibly 69 now, and right up from 16 to that age, we might even have an older person on now, but the last time I looked, that was the age. And people that have worked at different levels within their career, people who have just moved into a job role, some people have worked there for years and have just never had that, yeah, you're doing it right, you know, because it can be quite an isolating role at times. So it is very much a mixed bag, but in terms of people being interested, it is the final taboo that we've got left, really. You know, we talk about absolutely anything and can do so around the Sunday dinner table these days, apart from that, apart from death, and then what happens? And I find myself caveating certain things when I talk to people that are interested, because I think, well, once you know, you can't unknow. So, do you want to know? You know, that's kind of what I do, and maybe I'm feeding into that taboo and we should be breaking that down. So we get people right from school that reach out to us saying, I really want to do this, I want to know more about it, I want to start an apprenticeship. And when I say some people, these are significant numbers of people that we get asking about that. And equally, we have people that might maybe are funeral arrangers but want to experience more what it's like to be an operative or a funeral director. But of course, not everybody wants to take a linear path. I'll use the quotes for that. So they don't want to be an arranger, go on to funeral director to a manager. Some do. Some want to sidestep into the more medical side of it. So let's look at the mortuary technician, the embalming side of it. And I think what's great is that we do have that breadth now within this sector where people absolutely get to celebrate what it is that they're really passionate about. And thank the Lord, there are people who are really, really passionate about this because you've got one chance to get it right. You know, you can't there's no do-overs for any family members, and I I'm absolutely preaching to the converted, I appreciate that, but you know, that point is such a key point in this. If something doesn't happen correctly, then it hasn't happened correctly, there's no chance really to go back and rectify that on the most part.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Absolutely. Um do say that you know they're not they're not like weddings, um, in that if you if you want to have a couple over the course of your lifetime, you'll be alright to do so. But you're right, you only get one opportunity to get it right, and I think that anybody that comes into the industry, that's not lost on them. Um, you know, the fact that you can only, you know, if you get a piece of music wrong or you know there's a there's a mistake in the order of service or something like that, that's that is something that stays with a family from there on out. So it's incredibly important that that the wishes of those making the Iranians are met, and actually they have a experience can be as positive for them as it possibly can be, because obviously the grieving process is a it is a huge part of of life. So it's interesting from that perspective, and I and the age range surprises me, I guess. Maybe I probably feeding into the taboo as well from from that perspective, but I guess how do you how do you cater for people at differing spaces of of life? Because actually, like you say, you all have had people that have done a lot in their career before they get to that point of of working with you. So, how do you tailor something for 16 just out of school and looking to get involved in the industry to as you said late 60s and looking for probably something completely different?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yeah, and and the the great thing about every single apprenticeship with every great provider, and especially when there's that great I'm using great a lot, but I'm doing it on purpose, there's that great relationship between the provider and the employer, so you've got that good base to work from. Every single apprenticeship that you do, yes, there'll be a flavour of similarities because there's the criteria that everybody has to meet, but it has to be delivered with that one person along their journey, so that's what makes apprenticeships fantastic. So you might say, Okay, so we're gonna, you know, I don't know, to do a vehicle check and maintenance if you're an operative. It and and across every single apprentice that you meet, A, B, and C need to happen because that's what it says in the standard, that's what we've all agreed to sign up to. However, that person might prefer to do C B A, this person might prefer to do BCA, so on and so forth. Um some people will need extra support just to read and understand bits, other people are more maverick and gung ho and want to just crack on with it, and and that's the difference. And it's it's our assessors who, by the way, have to work in the sector. You know, we don't just get, I don't know, anybody off the street and say, You're an assessor, you can do this. So all our assessors are embarrassed, martuary technicians, funeral directors, the whole range. Because you can only assess in something that you've worked in, hence me doing that right back at the beginning in 2012. You know, it adds credibility. So they will be so au fa with the challenges that the funeral sector can throw, but but also where the the bits that can ease things up can be. So if you know, we we might go see somebody and they say, Oh, you were supposed to come and observe me today doing X, Y, and Z, but that's that's not on my books anymore. I'm gonna be doing this thing. Well, we know, well, don't worry, I'll come and see that because that's something that we can be observing as well, because it's coming down the line. You know, we we can be very flexible, very adaptable, and that is the beauty of every single apprenticeship. It's one-on-one. So it's that you one assessor with one learner, with one employer slash mentor that's gonna take responsibility at that side. So we look at that particular policy for that person and what their task is to do within that role. How does that meet what the standards say we need to be doing? So it's very individual.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

I was gonna say so. On that individuality, then are you do you look at the best ways of supporting that individual to learn in the sense of whether they benefit from visual or written or verbal, and you kind of mould it all around that person to make sure that they get a well-rounded set of skills to be able to go and deliver the role that they are looking to do effectively?

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah, absolutely. At the heart of everything for us is that everybody matters, and that is as an organisation, down to our sectors, down to our own people, and down to every single apprentice that we it's not just some words that we use. So we can't just get an off-the-shelf, there you go, that's what you need to do. It just doesn't work like that. So, you know, we've got hundreds, thousands, maybe learners on, and therefore we deliver it in a hundred to thousands different ways because everybody's different, you know. That that's as good as it can be a challenge for some people. So they'll say, Oh, well, I'm doing this, and another colleague in the same office isn't doing it this way, and we're like, Well, no, because they're focusing on different things, they've completed some different training to you, which means they don't actually need to revisit that bit, and but that has an impact then on how long somebody might stay in programme, what amount of funding we might take for them. So if somebody comes and they've already got 20% of that knowledge and the manager signed it off to say they know everything, that affects the amount of funding we would pull down. So it's all about that transparency piece, telling people exactly where they're at, what's expected of them, which isn't dissimilar to the funeral sector that we're working with anyway. It's very transparent, you know. So they appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot there around the technical competencies of people, but the other question I suppose is I would ask is it's you know, emotionally it can be a very complex industry. So, what does what does that look like from your perspective, or how do you support people to to work with people who are in grief every day? You hear some fantastic stories, but also you hear some stuff that's that's pretty tough. So, how do you how do you how do you support that?

SPEAKER_01 15:56

So we have a full first aid for mental health team here, we have a safeguarding team, and and they're people that are not sector specific, but that they're to to have that whole pastoral bit. That's that's their passion. They wake up every day, live and breathe that. We have a relationship that we're forming now with the National Bereavement Service where we're gonna look at what does it look like our apprentices having full access to them because with the best will in the world, there's also a hidden veil beyond within this sector of that. So if you work in this sector and you you see some things, I'm not gonna get away from that, and those things will go home with you. You know, you're a human at the end of the day. But I think there's still an even bigger taboo within the sector of well, this is your job, this is what we do. Well, that that cultive effect will take hold at some point, some faster than others. So we have that full wraparound support then to help people so that we can sit, listen, sign post to the right place, catch in with them, regular checkups, and somebody that's not necessarily gonna be the assessor that they see once a month. Some will want to be for it to be that assessor and maybe it's even once a week, some will really want that. Others will have have a preference of not wanting to do it with anybody that has an impact on their apprenticeship as if it's gonna negatively impact, you know, we find in that a little bit. So our roles is to break down those stigmas, those barriers. Often self-stigma, if I'm honest. That's you know, self-perceived side of it that oh, we're not supposed to do that and all of that. Um, you know, we're not supposed to feel like this, this is our roles. We have special education needs specialists within our organisation. So if we have somebody that's struggling with particular parts of learning, we can support them individually on a one-to-one basis again. So everything's very individualized, but there's a lot that goes on in the background just to make sure that no matter what happens, we've got you. That's it, we've got ya. Don't worry.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Sounds like an incredible support system for those that are looking to enter the enter the uh the profession. Over the last well, 14 years for you and since joining the sector, you will have seen a lot of change in the expectations of people out in the in the field. Kind of give us a little bit of a flavour from your perspective. What are some of the biggest challenges that are facing funeral professionals now versus perhaps when you started?

SPEAKER_01 18:27

So there's a lot around expectation and professionalism. So it's got to be in you, I think, to be that person. If you if you're playing at it in any way, very similar to anybody that works in things like the NHS or that that care bit, it won't last very long for you, and you'll quickly become found out. I think that's some of the challenges getting the right people, doing the right task, the right role that suits them, and making sure that everybody kind of understands that pulling together piece. The mental health side of it is going to be a massive challenge moving forward. I think post-pandemic it's not something that I don't think the support's caught up to the need yet, I would probably say. And I'm not actually actually sure that people have acknowledged that there is a need fully yet. You know, there was there was a lot that happened during the pandemic for the funeral sector, and they did so much so fast for so long that I think we're starting to see some of that now. You know, our our services have increased just on my conversations with people versus back then, which is great because I'm glad that that means more people are accessing support, so that's definitely not a negative thing. I think that's coming. There's gonna be more in terms of green funerals, environmental policies that are coming, we're already seeing that in the sector, and I think the regulation is gonna be the biggest thing that hits the sector. Everybody that I am speaking to, we're kind of waiting with open arms for it because I think if you're worried about the regulation coming in, it probably means you're not doing what you're meant to be doing right now. Most people that everybody that we work with is happy, ready for it, you know, they've already been going through a process with SAFOR NAFD just to ensure that the from their point of view they're doing what they need to be doing. So, yeah, that it there's gonna be a lot now, changes, and the apprenticeship, thank thankfully, is very much fit for purpose and fit for future as well. So it's all from our point of view, we can intertwine any changes that come in and to make it so current and up to date for learners and employers alike that it can only be a a benefit really.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

I echo your your thoughts and what you've heard on regulation. Similarly, uh to yourself, I have a background in adult and social care, um, so I've been through a couple of CQC inspections and things like that, and when I switched almost a decade ago now myself, I couldn't believe that there wasn't regulation in the industry because to all intents and purposes, I thought, well, what's the difference? You're caring for someone, um, you know, and and subsequently there should be standards that are met whilst you're doing so. So I think um yeah, you're right. Generally, people people welcome regulation, the opportunity to to be able to show what it is they're doing, how they're doing it, and making sure that they're putting in their families first. So um I think we'll have to keep our keep our eyes peeled on on what happens next with with that. When you think about funerals and remembrance um personally, what what makes a farewell truly meaningful to you and perhaps some of the people that you've worked with, and you will have heard a lot of uh case studies, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yeah, absolutely. So it's very much the personalised part of it, and and when you get to see so it from my point of view, when when I got to see that funeral and I wanted to say play out, but I'm not sure they're the right words, but on the day, the day of the funeral, the thanks that you get from the family members because not only did you do what they asked you to do, but you went a little bit of that extra mile without pushing. Any boundaries, and they felt that I really cared about them because I did, I genuinely did. I loved that bit of it. That you know, the personalisation piece cannot be downgraded in any way, shape, or form. Even down to some really small changes that we could make with our visiting rooms, you know, when people had come in to do the visits, and um for a children's funeral, you know what superhero they might have liked, and personalising the room a little bit, because one of the hardest funerals and family support to ever work with when you've lost a child, you know. And I know from my own personal experience, so my sister unfortunately lost her baby the day that she gave birth to it, here he lived for an hour, and I was two hours away from the hospital, and it took me that long to get to see her, and then by the time I got there it obviously passed. And because I work in a funeral home or have worked in funeral homes, I asked her, Can I pick him up? And she was like, I don't think you're allowed. And I'm like, You are? Do you want to pick your baby up? She said, I've not held him yet. I didn't really I don't know how to do it. And so I showed her how you could pick up this tiny, gorgeous little package without hurting him. And she held him for the first time and she said, I've waited hours to hold him. I just I didn't know how to pick him up, and I thought, It is that confidence piece, isn't it? Knowing that you're not going to do anything bad when you, you know, pick up this lovely little baby who unfortunately didn't live. And then supporting her to do that funeral and her realising there's things that you can do. You're allowed to make it memorable in a situation that you probably would like to forget today. But we often look back at that day now and take a lot of comfort from that. And I think with funerals it is very much that, you know, and whenever I say to people, oh yeah, no, my mum's no longer with us, they instantly go, Oh my neither. Um we did this for funeral though, and it changes the tone that they're speaking, it's like, yeah, my mum's not here, but we did this as a send-off. So a lot of people do hold on to that day so strongly, and I do, if I'm honest, you know, from my own personal experience, I do, and that's a bit of what drives me to do something very personal if the family wants it, just to let them know this isn't a tick box where you tick what you want, like you do you're ordering menu food at the hospital, it's not that. What would you like the day to look like, feel like for you? What does it mean?

SPEAKER_00 24:22

We um we've also seen a big, a big step change in the personalisation stuff in terms of the crematorium. Um I don't I don't know if you're aware, Kirsty, of the super venue initiatives uh that we have across the country. Um they are um they're immersive experiences that allow the families to adapt the chapels to be exactly what it is that that represented their their loved one. And I heard um a fantastic family experience um where they hadn't really thought about it before the the funeral, and then when they were making the arrangements, they were talking to uh the funeral director about this individual's love for the beach. And so uh, of course, the the the the funeral director said, well, you know, they've got this this beach themed, it's it looks like a Cornish coastline, you know, and went through all of what it looked like. And that family then chose that theme, they had that service, but then what they did onwards after that was they then decided that actually they wanted to lay their loved one to rest at sea, so they went and they got a dispersable ashes pillow and things like that. And I think that just that one moment has actually then ended up impacting not just that one moment but actually the thereafter, and subsequently, they've had a really powerful experience from something that actually they'd never really even thought of. And I think we're getting into a space now where you've rightly said people are looking to do things in a different way, whether it's the superhero, whether it's the beach theme, whether it's a colour theme, whether it's a sport theme, whether it's just actually, do you know what? Everybody, let's just get together, let's have a bit of a sing song, and then we'll everyone will go to the pub and have a drink. You know, I think people are looking to try and do things in a slightly different way. Um, all with that point of being able to celebrate it live. So um, yeah, I do know what we we hear a lot about personalisation, and you know, in a world where we hear an awful lot about direct cremation as well, um, we equally hear more and more powerful experiences when it comes to personalisation. So thank you for that. Looking over the next five to ten years, bearing in mind we've just spoken about the previous decade, where do you where do you see it going next?

SPEAKER_01 26:24

I think the regulation will drive some of this, where it goes next. Um I I am hoping, I'm hopeful that it gets more coverage than it it does because nobody knows about it unless unless for two reasons. One, it's gone wrong and it's in the news, or you need it. And some of these people that we support on apprentice, well, nearly all of them, are so such an amazing bunch of people with creativity, with organisational skills, with detailed, they're very detail-oriented people that generally and genuinely care. And that is a rare breed of a person, and to get a lot of them in one sector, thankfully, I just the recognition piece. You know, I just you don't know about them until you need them, and I'd I'd love to see that a little bit more come to the forefront. So I know we do a lot of case studies now and you know, celebrating the unsung heroes, and often families will celebrate the person that they've seen the most, but not even think about the four operatives that they didn't see one who did the coffin for them, one who helped get mum or dad dressed, one who drove the vehicle, everybody that carried them in. And I I'm happy that you know they have that perception of, oh I didn't really notice, which means nothing went wrong. Um but yeah, a bit more celebration. I love the good funeral awards for that. You know, you get together on the night and it's just a great night of seeing people from that sector who all live and breathe the same thing that you do. It's amazing, absolutely amazing. I have often wondered will we go a little bit more like America? Because they do some fantastical, you know, ways of doing goodbyes. And as the personalisation pace is growing and growing, who knows where we'll end up, you know, five to ten years' time with that. Anything could happen. We'd already go into space, aren't we?

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Absolutely, you can do all sorts of things. You've got jewellery, you've got ashes into space, you've got ashes pressed into vinyl records, you've got tattoos, you've got anything you can think of. So um, yeah, it will be interesting to see where we where we go next. But I I think that there will be um there'll be big step changes in the personalisation stuff as well, and I think expectations will grow and rightly so, and people will want to do uh the big and and and the bold perhaps for for their loved ones because that's that's what they believe those individuals stood for. So um I look forward to sharing more of those with you over the over the coming years.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

It it is hard for me though, Matthew, because I've seen a lot of funerals done. I can't pick my own. So far, I've got it down to a short list of seven.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

You know, so I even need to pick seven friends to you know explore all seven funerals, or I need to make my mind up.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

It is tough, and it is tough when you're sat there writing it down. So mine's in a little black book. To your point earlier on about the fact that people don't talk about it enough, you know. I'm really fortunate I've got into a space where my partner is willing to talk about it. It wasn't always that way, but she, you know, she understands and she knows where it is and she knows what's required. But I've got family members that won't talk about it, and I, you know, say to them all the time, I don't want to guess. I don't want to guess, you know, let me know what it is that you want. There's no wrong answer, I just want to be able to make sure that you do as you as you wish to do. So I imagine the next time we speak, the the target for you is to get that down to at least five. Or five, seven very willing friends. Absolutely. Um as we approach the end, I do like to finish on a quick fire round. So sector-related questions, first answer that comes to mind, don't think about it too much for me. Are you ready? Yes, go for it. One word that describes the funeral profession.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Personal.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

One skill that every great funeral director needs. Detail. One thing the public completely misunderstands about the funeral industry.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Everything.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Traditional funeral, i.e. hymns and then religion, or celebration of life. Celebration of life. The most viable thing apprenticeships bring to the sector. Progression, confidence, everything. You nearly got another everything off me then, which would have been cheating. And finally, when you think about remembrance, what does it mean to you in one sentence?

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Remembrance is honouring the person that the were, not necessarily the person that wanted you to know. Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Kirsty. Thank you so much for joining me on before you go. Really appreciate uh your time to come and speak to us. Um, your work highlights something incredibly important. Um, that supporting families who lost doesn't just rely on compassion and it it we know it relies on training, professionalism, preparation, and that development that you've mentioned for people that are doing the work every single day. If you would like to find out more about Kirsty and the work of Connect to Funeral Services, you can visit connect2care.net slash funeral dash services. That's connect2care.net slash funeral dash services. Or you can connect with Kirsty on LinkedIn. Um Before You Go is brought to you by Wesley Group and is produced in partnership with Impica PR. And if you've enjoyed today's episode, please remember to follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. And until next time, thank you very much for listening. Bye bye.