Versatile Views
Best friends Jack Knave and Charlie Darling are your co-hosts of a brand new LGBTQ+ podcast, promising top-tier takes and bottomless banter. They will be talking about queer life in London, LGBTQIA+ issues, queer media and pop culture with frequent cheeky anecdotes along the way. 💜💚
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Versatile Views
Heartstopper (S3 & Forever) - A Versatile Re-View
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The second part of Jack and Charlie's review of Heartstopper, covering Season 3 and the feature length movie Heartstopper Forever. They talk mental heath, eating disorders, relationships and sex, among other themes. Which characters had the best plot lines? Did your co-hosts find the story arcs relatable? Was there a good payoff? Was a movie the right way to end the show? They answer all these questions and more, so make sure to check it out!
Hi.
unknownHi.
SPEAKER_03I'm Jack Navicks.
SPEAKER_05And I'm Charlie's Ospring.
SPEAKER_03And this is Versatile Views.
SPEAKER_05The podcast where we don't say it. But it's true.
SPEAKER_03Just don't ask it.
SPEAKER_06Why are we?
SPEAKER_03Why are we like this?
SPEAKER_05Because we're too hot.
SPEAKER_03We're too hot and we are too enamored with season three of Heartstopper. Yes, we finally finished the entire show. Disclaimer up front, even though we're going to be discussing season three and the film, the film's not out yet.
SPEAKER_05We're getting ahead of the game, baby. Yeah, I think it's good actually to summarise our thoughts on the whole show first.
SPEAKER_01Oh, good idea.
SPEAKER_05As we go into the movie.
SPEAKER_01Great.
SPEAKER_05When I suggested this idea. And it was so good. Well, funny that.
SPEAKER_03No, I also, no, it wasn't me that just suggested the idea. I think you suggested it too. I mean, yeah, it was a collaborative effort. For sure. Much like the show Heartstopper. I suppose so, yeah. No, I think what I'm excited for when we did season one and two, I think my opinion of season one in retrospect was informed because I'd seen season two. Whereas we're going to talk about season three and we have not seen the film.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely. And I think because we talked about season one and two last time, we didn't really know where the show was going. So we expressed some of our hopes maybe for season three or what we thought might happen. And now that we've watched season three, it I can look back and be like, You stupid son of a bitch. Wait, what in what way? Oh, like maybe they're gonna explore Charlie's eating disorder a little bit. A little bit. Oh my god. But before we get into it, we're gonna do another round of quickie tops and bots. What?
SPEAKER_03Of course, always go first.
SPEAKER_05Okay. I'm actually gonna go with my bottom first. And a first for first tell views. Okay, go for it. The beginning of this week, I was miserable. I had a tough start to the week. Monday to Wednesday, I was in such a bad mood. I lost all my motivation. I think I was just feeling a bit overwhelmed and I was feeling frustrated with myself. I wasn't achieving anything. I was felt like I wasn't putting a lot of effort into things. And actually, yeah, you're right to shake your head and stay.
SPEAKER_03I'm shaking my head because I'm also trying to stop myself from saying anything. But the way you felt was real.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03What the way you were thinking that was causing the way you felt wasn't entirely justified.
SPEAKER_05True. And I was still actually fairly productive. I still did a fair number of things. You did. But I was frustrated with myself, I was frustrated with everything. That leads me to my top. Oh! Which is Wednesday was the pivotal moment. Oh! Where we hung out for eight hours and we recorded the first half of this. We had some great chats and it really ordered all my thoughts. It put perspective on everything, and I was like, you know what? I have been hard on myself. Very. Actually, things aren't as bad as I had thought.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_05And it just explained my thought processes, like where they'd come from. We talked about it. It was so helpful. Thursday, Friday, Saturday, so much fun.
SPEAKER_03Well, I was very careful in the way that I broached things with you on Wednesday, and we really dove extremely deep. We it was deep chats. Yeah. So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, you're welcome. Okay.
SPEAKER_03How about you? Bottom and top. Yeah, it needs to, I always need to start with my bottom because I hate ending on a bum note.
SPEAKER_01I just came up with that.
SPEAKER_03Uh my bottom. I've just been unwell, baby. I just am not having I've not been well. I've not been it's just I'm too hot. I think I'm just not sleeping well. I'm not eating properly. I'm drinking far too much sugary beverages, and it turns out too much caffeine, and I am sensitive to caffeine. So that's that's basically it. I've not been feeling my cell. However, my top is also wetness day. Yeah, I had a great time with you. I was really thinking about it. You know that I struggle a lot with issues that are sometimes imagined but are usually based in reality.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So perhaps being overbearing or pushing my friends too hard, or maybe even pushing myself too hard. But we sat down, we had a really interesting conversation about the way you were feeling, about the way I was feeling, how we can help each other, how we can do things for the podcast. And I just walked away, and I didn't walk away, you know, feeling triumphant and positive about the future. I just walked away thinking, wow, that was an incredibly agile conversation that I just had with my best friend. And it's left me just feeling like, well, I've achieved one thing this year. Oh no. Come on, that's a bit much. Yeah. But I'm just really proud of the place that we're in at the moment. So yeah, great. Well, we're on the same page today, aren't we? Very aligned. For now. Yeah, well, we need to get into this season three. Okay, let's do it. Let's do it.
SPEAKER_05We're gonna start with our overall impressions of the season.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I'd like to hear yours.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, season three was a more difficult watch. It just didn't really pull any punches. It got dark at times. Definitely a more dour vibe to the whole season. I think that's the word you used the other day to describe it in your on the money. It felt like they packed in so much, so much happened for every character, and actually I could have done with a bit more depth in some of those storylines. I concur. So the pace was quite fast, and sometimes it was dwelling on things that I didn't care so much about. Oh, okay. There were things that happened to the side, I was like, oh, I want to see more about that. Never did. A bit annoying. Like Tara, for example. For example, yeah. Or maybe Darcy. Yeah, and L and so on. Oh yeah, okay, yeah, for sure. However, the story did focus quite heavily on Charlie and Nick. Yeah. Yep. Also a bit more on characters we hadn't seen so much of season one and two, like Tori, for example.
SPEAKER_03Well, this season opens with a shot of Tori.
SPEAKER_05I thought that.
SPEAKER_03I was like, what the freak is going on here? Quite telling, yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I really enjoyed that aspect of it.
SPEAKER_03No, me too, me too.
SPEAKER_05I do think by this point the show has found its stride in terms of the actors are doing a good job, like the dialogue is more smooth and it's kind of all making sense. I'm like along for the rides.
SPEAKER_03Better actors, better writing, better scenarios.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. More compelling stories being told.
SPEAKER_03It's almost as if that's the reason why the other characters suffered. The show finally found its stride with the storytelling of Nick and Charlie, and so other things had to fall by the wayside.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. What do you think about season three overall?
SPEAKER_03I just agree with everything you've said, which is dead annoying, of course. Uh, I think Dower is definitely the word for the first half. However, I did think that the storytelling in this season wasn't so much. Remember how I was saying it was almost like a fairy tale? Oh yeah. The conversations were just almost entirely character and driving the plot, and they didn't feel like they were based in reality. I felt like quite a lot of this season really was based in reality. And that's why I felt like it suffered because it went at such a breakneck speed. Because I really wanted to see the actual progression. We really only saw beginning, middle, end. We didn't see beginning, the the middle of the beginning in the middle. The middle, the middle of the beginning and the end, and then the end. Yeah. I like to see the work. I like to see the characters come to those really hard-earned conclusions instead of just they come to the conclusion.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, harkens back to the point I just made around the story being mostly focused on Charlie and Nick. So I think the payoff for them was very good, but it came at the expense of the other characters. Definitely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And just there were other ideas that weren't fully explored, but we actually don't have the time to get into them. One thing I'll mention, you know, the whole university saga. I'm a bit like we actually aren't fully seeing. I'm really sorry to announce everyone, there is a fly in here again today. It's true. It just it just went past me. Um, okay. I wanted to see again Nick coming to the realization of that, and I do think there's a good payoff there, and we'll come to that. But yeah, at this point, I'm actually saying the show suffered because there wasn't enough time. Whereas before I was saying there there was actually a lot of time that they weren't really filling, yeah, and not much of substance was happening, so it's definitely agree. Yeah, complete 180.
SPEAKER_05Any other contrasts with seasons one and two you want to pull out?
SPEAKER_03Well, I guess what we could say is season one is very much Nick not being able to express himself and Charlie bottling everything up, but sort of trying to not do that. Then in season two, it reverts back to Charlie really can't open up, and Nick is really trying to push himself to be open and be brave the same way that uh Charlie was brave in season one. And now that the inverse is happening again. Nick is not properly explaining to Charlie how he feels. Charlie's leading the way in every single conversation, true, not always in the right way. Uh, we'll talk about the the cost-benefit of being drunk and saying certain things, but uh it just seems like Nick is not opening up and the relationship is about to suffer because of it.
SPEAKER_05There are a few main themes he wants to quickly chat about. So, of course, one of the main storylines of season three is Charlie's eating disorder and subsequent diagnosis, treatment, and recovery.
SPEAKER_03The show did something very interesting in that it actually showed the point of view of someone else first being there. Yeah, good point. So we we actually don't know what's going on, we don't know what's happening, and actually reflecting on it now, that's exactly how Nick would have felt. He would have had no idea what was going on. So for us as the viewer to not have a proper insight to it either was effective.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I agree. And definitely that's a theme throughout the season is the effects of mental health, not on not on one but on everyone around them. And I think that's why we saw so much of Tori this season exploring that relationship between them, which we'll talk a bit more about uh later. But Tori was really torn up by Charlie being so ill and sick, and I think it took him a while to notice that to appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, she had to say it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it was her who said it to him. I think you've got a problem. And he was like, Finally, he had to face it head on because he could kind of swerve it with everyone else, but with his own sister in his own house, she was the last bastion, kind of.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think what this show is very good at explaining for the youth of today is perhaps you can't just assume that other people know exactly what you're thinking and feeling, and it's actually incredibly unfair to expect people to do that.
SPEAKER_05It's immature, it's immature. When Charlie was doing that, he was frustrated at his mother and frustrated at Nick and his other friends for just not getting it. That was really frustrating to watch. Uh-huh. And that's fair. I mean, we are above the target age of this show, but as a person in their 30s watching this, I was like, oh my gosh, can we just get over this part? Because it's really boring.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, I had a situation last year where I had to keep on saying to two people dear to my heart to just talk to the other person. And um, and it turns out I was right, who would have known? However, yeah, you touched on something that I I wanted to just really push and say that when your mental health is bad, I mean, we we went on this journey together literally at the end of last year and the beginning of this year. When your mental health isn't in a good place, when your mental health is poor, it's not just you that suffers, it is the others around you that also have to, they have to bear that burden, even if you do not want to burden them with it. And it isn't that's not how most people would really view it. You wouldn't view it as a burden, but you do have to share the load because whether or not you want to, unless you are the best actor in the entire world and you're putting the smiliest, happiest, most optimistic face on it, which spoiler alert, I absolutely was not, then there are people who gonna know that you're not in a good place and they they need help understanding how to help you.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, totally I agree. Period. And that's something we're learning and refining into our 30s, and these kids are 15, 16 years old and going through some like really heavy stuff, which is typical of teenagers these days. There's no issue in this show as I think, well, that wouldn't happen to a 15-year-old.
SPEAKER_03Like a bajillion percent, everything is very grounded in reality when it comes to the issues they're experiencing.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But you had a pretty salient point when it came to mental health and specifically, I think, the character development of someone.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so Charlie, of course, has the biggest journey with this and it's the biggest focus. There were direct moments where his experience of his poor mental health and his recovery and his like the health care he received from that from his therapy and whatever directly helped his relationships with other people, which I thought was really amazing. So, for example, when Tara has a panic attack at the party, oh yeah, and he notices he goes to find her, and he's the perfect person to be there with her in that moment, and he's able to calm her down. I thought that was a really beautiful moment. Powerful, and and that's why he's very drunk, because obviously Nick and it's the same.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I forgot.
SPEAKER_05It's the next scene where Nick is like, You're too drunk to be talking about E X with me. But I love that, and it showed Charlie's real maturity, and I love to see it because you know we'd been through that journey with him, and it was hard to watch someone you've grown to care about as a character, and he was like, actually, you've really turned it around. I think that showed a real pivotal moment in his own mental health. He's able to support other people finally, instead of being the bird, and he thought he had been for two and a half seasons. That was great. And as you said earlier, he was the one who brought up difficult conversations with Nick almost every time this season. Very true, and that's down to the hard work that character put in to get over his own demons.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think it was really interesting. This is why I think therapy is very good for people to go to because sometimes all a therapist really is is uh someone to help you reflect, like they are just a mirror. And when the therapist says to him, By the way, Charlie, you were the one that told Nick how you felt. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And Charlie's like, Oh. Yeah, you are confident. That's the kind of thing I can relate to as well. Because I often say things about myself, I'm like, maybe I'm not very courageous, or I'm not very I'm quite lazy, all this kind of stuff. And people are like, What are you talking about? Like you do you do these things, you've done actions, and a lazy person, a non-confident person wouldn't have done that. That's true. And so I totally related to that conversation he had with his therapist. Thanks, Mr. Therapist.
SPEAKER_03You really helped me out. It was really amazing to see myself represented in a show as someone being extremely humble but actually incredibly talented. So I jest, I jest. I think that I mean, we have these exact same conversations with each other. It's nice to be kept in check, have a nice reality check.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Final point on that I want to make is this storyline was kind of really tied off at the very last episode when Charlie is on the Ferris wheel with his sister Tori and she has been like through the ringer. Oh my gosh, yes.
SPEAKER_01Ah, you're making such a good point! Sorry, carry on.
SPEAKER_05Can I? We know how much she's been through. We've had a lot of shots of her looking teary-eyed, being in her room alone, not having anyone to talk to about all of this. Being the peacekeeper between her parents and her brother. Really tough job, and she's only 16 herself. I think I always thought of her as like the older sister, but she's one year older.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so like 17 or 18, yeah.
SPEAKER_05She's actually been given an opportunity for sort of some happiness. She finds connection with someone new, a new character in this season, and Charlie gives her permission. He's like, You can pursue that now because I'm okay. It was a really touching moment to have this sibling relationship explored in that depth was wonderful.
SPEAKER_03Well, that leads us on to our next subject: relationships. Tell me more. Tell Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So Tori was my favourite character this season.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's so entry.
SPEAKER_05Hands down. Yeah. Yeah. I thought she was so complex and interesting. I was really rooting for her. I think she showed the unconditional love for Charlie that he was taken for granted initially.
SPEAKER_03Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_05And that his parents were not displaying in a way that he could receive and his mother was not displaying. Sure. Yeah. And that goes back to the point you made last episode where we were talking about Tori and you said, to me, she is the mother.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. She really was mothering her brother. I I find it incredibly heartening. I have a very similar relationship with my sister. Shout out to Sister Nave. Actually, she's a good deal younger than I am. Uh, but you know, she was one of the first people I ever spoke to about my sexuality. And gosh, I must have been 14. So she would have been nine. So the fact that I was saying to my sister, she was a very mature nine-year-old Lemmy Telia. So, you know, I was saying to her, Hannah, this is what I think, this is how I feel. How would you feel if your big brother, you know, liked men? What do you think about that? And she was like, honestly, uh gay. Well, that's none of my business.
SPEAKER_05If you're a bum bandit.
SPEAKER_03And I just really again, I wholeheartedly agree. I think that was a really peaceful dynamic to see. I'm not the biggest fan of the character of Tori, unfortunately, but I do like her journey and I do like who she is to Charlie. And as I said earlier, if you aren't telling someone what you're thinking and feeling, you cannot assume that they will know. And so until Tori turned around to Charlie and was like, by the way, you've you've actually made me feel really shitty because you're choosing to leave this horrible Christmas event and leaving me here by myself. And actually, I need you here. Exactly, I need you to. And then, you know, she shows a lot of maturity by turning up at Knicks and and being like, Look, I'm still having a shit time. Yeah, I need your support right now. Yeah, I I loved that. I thought it was really, really important to show. It was a really realistic depiction of uh a beautiful sibling ship.
SPEAKER_05Amazing. Any other relationships you want to touch upon?
SPEAKER_03Yes. So toward the end of the season, we actually see Tao and Charlie come to the realization that a relationship is not the be-all end-all. And that I thought was kind of an unrealistic depiction of what a teenager would think about their relationship. Yeah. But I think it's an incredibly important message to show the kind of target demographic of this show. You need to still put effort into your friendships because when you start to rely on someone for happiness, then they're the only way you can be happy and experience joy, and all of your relationships will suffer for it. Your family, but most of all your friends. And your family haven't got a choice, they need to stay there. But your friends, they don't have to. Yeah, they can move on. Free to go.
SPEAKER_02Anything to say on that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think you're touching that's not targeted, by the way. Yeah. It's definitely not because we've had good conversations this year about that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely, yeah. No, I think, yeah, the sort of the codependence element of all these relationships, because at times I find it a bit unrealistic that this entire friendship group which is made up of couples in high school, usually it just wasn't really the case, at least at my school.
SPEAKER_03Actually, it wasn't the same, it wasn't the case at my school either. I mean, there were a few very strong, well, we say strong relationships, they were just long relationships, perhaps, but they're not everyone was in a couple.
SPEAKER_05Exactly. It turns out a lot of these relationships are very codependent because they were dealing with quite heavy topics, they really leaned on each other for that support. And Nick, for example, gave so much to Charlie. And when Charlie was suddenly like better, well, not suddenly better, when he was better and okay, Nick was kind of like, Well, what about what now? Yeah, people were like, Well, about what about your life? He's like, So, what now? And he mentions at some point because someone asks him, Well, what about you? And he's like, Oh, there's nothing to me. And I thought that was an insane thing to say for the captain of the rugby team, who the whole school knows is this like hunky guy. You're defined by your relationship. That's crazy. That is crazy, but also an interesting way for the the story to go. I was intrigued.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and I really like to see the realization he suddenly has. You're watching it as a viewer, and if well, if you have pattern recognition but like me, then you you would have realized it sooner. But you're a typical viewer may have watched it and thought, oh, he just doesn't want to be away from Charlie because he's worried about Charlie and he's worried about taking looking after Charlie and taking care of Charlie. But then he finally gets to the crux of the message, which is I actually don't know if I can be myself without Charlie. Yeah, I I like who I am with Charlie. What am I supposed to do when Charlie isn't there? And that's a wonderful realization to have. And you know, if we're I'm skipping ahead a bit, but one of my hopes for this film is that he does choose to go away for university. Yeah. Because I think it's Imogen. Imogen makes a good point and she says, Yeah, but what if Charlie goes away for university next year? And I was like, Oh my god, yeah, then what, Nick? You're at university, you can be arsed with, and for no reason. So do do what you need to do. And I really liked him with the three girls. They were all like, Don't be stupid.
SPEAKER_05I think it all makes sense as well because Nick came out because of Charlie, isn't it? So obviously, when he came out, he realized A big thing about himself, and he made that decision to come out and be that way and have a public relationship. To be that way.
SPEAKER_01Sorry.
SPEAKER_05To buy that way.
SPEAKER_01Actually.
SPEAKER_05So it totally makes sense. He's did form a bit of a codependent relationship because he says to Charlie at some point, Oh, I can only really be myself with you. That's just because he hasn't been out without Charlie ever. He changed, he's developed so much as a character, as a person from the beginning of the show to now. Yeah, it totally makes sense he'd have this crisis. He'd be like, Well, I'm facing leaving Charlie. I have to leave him. Who am I without him?
SPEAKER_03And that's really annoying to me because he has made friends with all these people. He's doing all of them such an injustice by saying it's all because of Charlie. It absolutely isn't. Every single person in that group he has had a good relationship with, especially Tara, I suppose.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I was heartened by every scene with just Nick and Tara. Nick and Imogen, also quite cute. Even Nick and Tao when Nick has a bit of a like cry at the party. Yeah, with a bit of wobbly, that's exactly what I wanted to say. And Tao is there and gives him a hug. I thought that was for them, it was a big development because you know they started off on the wrong foot.
SPEAKER_03Well, actually, for Tao, that's a big development. He's really maturing because Nick didn't have an issue with him. Yeah. So yeah, all of the characters maturing. But all of this is happening when we see Charlie start to realize that Nick isn't going to be there forever. So he does turn to his friends and he's like, I really appreciate you. I'm really grateful for you. And they're like, Why are you being so soft pay? And I think it's really important you tell your friends why you love them, why they are important to you and why they're in your life, because it's not, it shouldn't be transactional, but it's good for people to know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And we could like to hear that.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely. And we've been through this process. We were at school and then we went to college, university, whatever, and we left some people behind. And I'm sure maybe we were sentimental to those people at the time. But people move on and you move across the country and friendships sort of dissipate and wax and wane. Exactly. It's just part of life. And I do wonder how Hearts Hub is going to handle that because we've had no none of the couples have broken up. Everyone's got together and been happy. There's been no really big fallouts that have lasted. So how is it going to handle that? Like if it completely glosses over that these relationships could end or wane in some way, then that's too unrealistic for me. I want to see someone stop talking to someone.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I want to see some heartbreak. I want to see some obviously we're joking. But that is true. We need an accurate representation of that because as we said, these people are not the be-all and end all. At that moment in time, yes, maybe, and that's what it feels like. But the world just keeps turning.
SPEAKER_02And you you gotta realize that.
SPEAKER_05Well, one last topic he wants to touch upon?
SPEAKER_01Very funny, very pane.
unknownTouch.
SPEAKER_03Well, no, well, the you know, schmecks.
SPEAKER_05The sexy times.
SPEAKER_03I think the show did it very tastefully.
SPEAKER_05I guess I agree. Oh. I found the sex talk in this season like tiresome. Why? Just be I think like nothing to do with Hot Slopper per se, but just any TV show that's about teenagers worrying about their virginity and losing their virginity. I'm so bored. Because what's gonna happen? They're gonna lose their virginity. I know what's gonna happen, and I don't really care. I'm like, can we speed past this part?
SPEAKER_03Okay, so this is where I have to bring you back to this isn't a show for our demographic.
SPEAKER_05Thousand percent.
SPEAKER_03So I understand why you would find it tiresome. For me, I find it heartening.
SPEAKER_05Cute.
SPEAKER_03First of all, I didn't uh I was just grateful that they did not sensationalize it. It basically it wasn't skins. We were not watching canonic teenagers do the do.
SPEAKER_05So it was nice. Actually, I think I saw a lot way too much making out and heavy petting. I really didn't want to see any of that.
SPEAKER_03I I can agree actually. There was maybe too much kissing for sure, but then is that not good to show them that you should be like kissing and being intimate with each other that way?
SPEAKER_05Sure, but I think you can make that point quite quickly. I don't need to see another montage of two 17-year-olds making out No, look, I'm with you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean I'm arguing it's like I am with you. I actually also I really could have done without seeing them kiss a bajillion times. But I I do just like the message that it's putting out there. It's like sex positive, I guess, which is which is good. But which is good. I really like how they handled Ellen Tao. I think that's such a tricky thing. I think it was very beautifully done. Could have been explored a bit deeper, but again That's exactly what I was gonna say.
SPEAKER_05I'm glad they brought it up. I think it's definitely a pertinent issue for a young trans person the first time they have sex with anyone. It's definitely a very vulnerable moment because you have obviously got your own relationship with your body, and then you're to be intimate with someone is to be very vulnerable and show everything to them, and it's like obviously the the whole dynamic of their relationship is that Tao is a boy and Elle's a girl, so it could be quite confronting to her to be like, Well, I'm gonna show you my body now, and is it womanly enough for you? I don't know. I I've no idea obviously I can't speak for what it's like for a trans person to do that, but I thought it was great to bring it up as a topic, but it wasn't dived into enough.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it dispersed pretty quickly. It was suddenly fine. I also like how it was handled by you know the conversation that Nick had with his mother. I'm gonna tell a story on the Patreon about a conversation similar that I had with my mother. You know, I find myself agreeing with his mum. It very much his mum or his auntie? No, his mum. No. Oh, I said Nick, I meant Charlie.
SPEAKER_05Oh.
SPEAKER_03I meant Charlie, sorry.
SPEAKER_05Right, right.
SPEAKER_03No, when Charlie has the conversation with his mum about the sleepover, yeah, and his mum is like, look, and she could have said it in a better way, although I don't think she was that bad. Honestly, I I think his mum gets a pretty raw deal in this series, and it gave it just gave, but daddy, I love him, you know, from Little Mermaid. And I was like, honestly, just wait a couple of weeks. Your mum's right, it is a huge thing emotionally. So just hold on one second, you've waited this long. Yeah, no, but instead he like runs out and he's like, I'm gonna do it right now, right now. Props to him, props to you, Mama. Except not to mama. No, so that was interesting. I also like how they tied his feelings about his body and about sex in general to his sort of disordered eating. And you know, his therapist makes a really good point, which is like you're having to seed control, and your yeah, your mental health and your eating disorder is all about the fact that you can't control everything. You can't control what Nick thinks about you. And then there was just, you know, I guess everyone's attitude towards spicy times was interesting. They were all like, you know, go for it. If you feel like you're ready, just try it, see what happens, trust, and let's go. And I agreed for the most part with them.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I can get on board with that. In terms of messaging around teenagers having sex, I mean, what more could you want if you're ready and there's no rush? Do it. One thing Do it, do it now.
SPEAKER_03Do them, do it now. Call her. Um one thing that I did think was kind of crazy was the product placement. I mean, we get a huge marketing push for Jurex. Do you reckon? Well, it wasn't huge, but it was, you know, it was quite funny. But one thing that popped into my head is like that pharmacist must have been like, why are three women helping this handsome young man buy loop and what are you for up to next?
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, have fun.
SPEAKER_06Oh my god, that's crazy. Right? I didn't really make that connection.
SPEAKER_03Okay, well, what do we think is gonna happen in the film? Sorry. Cut the cameras.
SPEAKER_05Charlie is going into sixth form. Yeah. With Tao and Isaac. He's gonna be the head boy. Nick, Tara, L, and Imogen all have another year at school. Do they? Yeah. Oh because you apply for university towards the end of like Charlie just says GCSEs, the end of year 11.
SPEAKER_03Right. Okay, I was getting so confused with the timeline. I was thinking this is super quick.
SPEAKER_05So I do I wonder the film, is it gonna cover that year or is it gonna skip ahead a bit maybe to like when Nick's going to university?
SPEAKER_03Baby, I watched the trailer. I see some overage legal drinking happening. So I think there's time skips.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, okay, okay. Time skips. Jack loves time skips.
SPEAKER_03I absolutely hate time skips, and there were quite a few in the trailer. No, in this season. Oh, yeah, the time was all over the place. I was like, oh, sorry, it was New Year and now it's April. But I have to say, whatever.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean fair. It's I've built a bridge. I think someone's gonna break up. Who? I think maybe Tara and Darcy. Yeah, me too. I I really think that's gonna happen. I think they're gonna have a conflict. They're just so different. Um it makes sense whether it's school the same school with Darcy going into a gap here kind of vibe, and Tara is so she says, Oh, I'm sick of academia, and she might just want to go to Oxford, but Well, also the thing with Darcy is that they are having like a full-on change in identity as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Ells going to Europe potentially. How is that gonna work? Wait, but I love to see that, and Tal had a great reaction to it, so He did.
SPEAKER_05He did cute.
SPEAKER_03I really I don't actually know what I want to see from this film, but you will find out what I think about it in five seconds.
SPEAKER_06Exactly, yeah, you don't have to wait very long.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well we'll be back in a bit. Bye. Actually.
SPEAKER_05We're back. And what did you think? I will reserve judgment. No, you can't do that. We haven't got time for ambiguity and vagueness.
SPEAKER_03I just w don't want to go in immediately negative. So you didn't like it? There's just much more of it that I didn't like than I did actually like. Fair. Tell me you. Tell me you.
SPEAKER_01Tell me true, tell me you.
SPEAKER_05Well, a true true is that I enjoyed it as a film, I enjoyed it as a tying up of the story of the whole show. There are many things to pick apart. Okay, well, we won't pick it apart too much on this main ep, then let's do that in the Patreon. I think we've got time for a summary of our thoughts right now, and as you say, we can go into more depth later.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Kitten whiskers. So my overall impression of the film was good for Nick and Charlie. As in the characters. As in Well Done, we got a whole story just about them.
SPEAKER_05Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah. Which wasn't my favourite. I was just sat here waiting for something else to happen for the other characters.
SPEAKER_03Honestly, I was just like, oh, wait, who is everyone again?
SPEAKER_05Mm-hmm. The magic of Heartstopper is the whole cast all together, they're all having a great time together. Throughout the seasons, we've seen them, you know, grow up together. So to have this story just based on two characters with everyone else relegated to supporting side characters.
SPEAKER_03I wouldn't even call them supporting.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, true.
SPEAKER_03It was disappointing for that. Yeah. I don't know what to say now. I don't think that it could stand on its own two legs as a film. I would agree with that. And if it did, if this was a film that was produced and made and directed and acted, then I think critics would tear it apart because they'd be like, Well, what do you mean this character had an eating disorder, we didn't see that? What do you mean that this person came out as bisexual, we didn't see that?
SPEAKER_05I do agree with that. It wouldn't stand on its own two legs, but at the same time, I'm relieved that it didn't rehash so many things because we have well, we have watched the three seasons in quick succession in the last few weeks. I don't need to be reminded of what happens. No, that's true, actually. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It truly is just, well, let's say a replacement for season four. Yeah, it's fan service. As you say, season four. I had an epiphany on why it was called Heartstopper Forever.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. You wrote in a note. Why is it called that? Well. Do you know why it's called that? Well, it's just a bit of a sort of punny name, no.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's a pun. And then I I'd uh I don't like that pun. Shrek did at first. Forever after. Well, this is the thing. Uh again, well well, we'll talk about it later, but my point would be if it was Heartstopper Forever, I would have liked to have seen a bit more of the forever. I thought we were gonna get a real proper epilogue at the end of them with like children and stuff. And we do get an epilogue, but it isn't forever. It's no, it's term one of the next year. In Leeds. Yeah. Let's just move on and talk about the main themes. Yeah. So to recap, we've spoken mainly about mental health relationships and the spicy times. So we're gonna do that again.
SPEAKER_05Okay, so starting with mental health.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, take it away. What were you thinking about it?
SPEAKER_05There were some interesting themes explored. So in the movie, it's Nick's mental health, which is more to the fore. Yeah, yeah, to the fore. Charlie is almost entirely fine, except when they have their little tiff back and he has a relapse, and that's really condensed into basically a montage for about 60 seconds, which is kind of wild considering we had the whole season of it before. Yeah, true, true. However, it's interesting to delve into Nick's psyche a bit more because he was sidelined a bit in season three, he was just supporting, and I do love how his whole plot is I'm codependent on Charlie, I don't know who I am without him. Now that Charlie is better, what do I do? How do I define myself? What am I really here for? And that's quite powerful stuff for a teenager to have to grapple with.
SPEAKER_03And then there's one thing that I don't think was quite fully explored, but was how do I make sure that Charlie stays better?
SPEAKER_05When I'm not around.
SPEAKER_03Or just even when I'm around. It looked as though that Nick wasn't saying how he truly felt because he was worried that it might impact Charlie.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, true. He was terrified that he might say something wrong and cause Charlie to relapse when actually not saying not saying anything was causing Charlie to relapse in the end. But he learns that behaviour from his father. So there was the whole reasoning behind that.
SPEAKER_03We'll get into that when we get to relationships. But yes, great foreshadowing. One thing with the mental health that I find a bit of a struggle was I actually saw some weaponization of mental health.
SPEAKER_05Can you explain that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think at one point Charlie says, Well, if you don't explain to me, then it makes me feel bad. And then this is what happens. And I was a bit like, Oh my gosh, don't say to someone you're gonna stop eating if they're not open and honest with you.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I guess that's what forces Nick's hand in the end to be like, Well, then we shouldn't be together because I'm not able to be open about my emotions for whatever reason. That means you're gonna end up feeling this way. So, ergo, off you go.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but isn't Nick that breaks up with Charlie? It's like a mutual, non-mutual decision. Yeah, we need to come to that because actually Charlie surprised me with a brilliant line, but we'll come to that in the relationship aspect as well. Okay. But there was one part in the film where I was like, Yes.
SPEAKER_05You've put a note in here about self-identity. Yeah, exactly. I mean, Nick's whole situation is because he doesn't know who he is. So he's grappling, he's trying to find himself a bit. Yeah, he can't even write a sentence about himself. I know, which is kind of baffling. I mean, I think we talked about it in the last section. So, in a way, you'd think maybe having some time apart would be good for him and it would give his give him time to explore who he is and maybe discuss that with his friends and stuff, although he basically totally shuts down and doesn't had take that opportunity at all. He's just miserable which is a bit disappointing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_05But that's very, you know, coming of age as a queer person, yeah, you're trying to find out who you are, and he has been defined by his relationship.
SPEAKER_03Are you joking? Sorry, there's there's a fly. Sorry, for all of you that are involved in the fly saga. Sorry, yes, uh, as a youth, holding everything in, not wanting to be too much for people, or being the complete inverse of that and not holding anything in and being too much for everyone. Hmm. Fine balance to strike. It is indeed. I do uh yeah, you can't help yourself or help anyone else if you don't know your own self either.
SPEAKER_05And I was surprised that Nick's struggle with this actually culminated in so much aggression. Oh, yes. He was so angry and almost well, not almost, he was violent with people in the rugby game and so on.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah. That sort of passed me by a little bit because it was one of 18,000 montages in this film. That's concerning to me.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I don't want my Nick and Charlie to be in a situation where Nick is so angry he gets violent. Like, that's not good.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, and then he also I put a note in here about uh dependence. He isn't just depending on Charlie, he's also depending on alcohol to make him feel good. I mean, it's very, very briefly touched upon.
SPEAKER_05I actually have a grievance with that. Oh, go for it. Alcohol is brought up in many situations in this show in season three as well, and it kept feeling like it was a precursor to something more. So Tara as well was often shown heavily drinking. You know what you're absolutely right. She was always grabbing the bottle. Always when she has she was like having a crisis about what she's gonna do at uni, she's always grabbed a bottle. So I was expecting a storyline to come up with an alcohol dependency, alcoholism, which again, like it would be perfect of course in this show, which is another three thing to throw in there. It didn't, it just petered out for everyone.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's very interesting. I don't think I ever really knew anyone with that much of a drinking problem when I was younger, but I was aware of people, I didn't know them, but I was aware of people. As you say, there were so many story beats put in for Tara to become like the alcoholic. I genuinely think they either ran out of time or ran out of budget. Definitely, yeah. And that is uh one gripe I also have is that they I I just don't understand why not a full season.
SPEAKER_05Oh. Oh, you know why? I looked into this because that was my number one question. Well, tell me. When I first started writing notes, I was like, hold on, why are we watching a movie and not a season?
SPEAKER_01Hold the fudging phone.
SPEAKER_05The viewership decreased markedly in season three by 30% apparently on the previous two seasons.
SPEAKER_03Well, no wonder it was so dour. Yeah. I think that's a shame. I think it it's bad that people turned away from a difficult subject. But then I guess people were watching the show to feel good about themselves.
SPEAKER_05Definitely. I think this show is one that people re-watch a lot. It's a comfort show, especially as it came out in the aftermath of the pandemic. But people probably re-watch season one and two, remember that season three is a bit depressing, be like, oh, just leave that. I know what happens, it's fine, I don't need to rewatch that again. So I can understand why the viewership was lower for that. Also, Joe Locke and Kit Connor have achieved great success and fame from this show.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well done. Snaps for Joe Locke and Kit Connor.
SPEAKER_05Well deserved. That means their schedules are really hard to align, and that was one of the other reasons I cut down the season into a movie.
SPEAKER_03But then that begs the question why not put a little bit more of time into the side characters for a season? I mean some certain scenes made me think spin-off, oh 100%. Whether or not we see those for one character in particular. Wait, who oh, for for Isaac. No, for who? I don't know actually.
SPEAKER_05L 1000% L.
SPEAKER_03Fingers friggin' crossed.
SPEAKER_05She's I mean, she was a standout.
SPEAKER_03Except not in this film. Look, you you're right. I I think that it is a comfort show for people. That is how I have heard it described by every Tom, Richard, and Harry. By every Tom, Rachel, and Harriet. I do think that when it comes to those darker moments, I I wouldn't want to re-watch it. I actually don't think I will ever re-watch this series.
SPEAKER_05I don't really intend to. But as we discussed, the show isn't really made for us. Agree. I know people who are our age who adore this show.
SPEAKER_03I know I know people. I know person.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I know person too. And I'm sure he is gonna re-watch it over and over again. But for me, for you, for us, perhaps not. But that's okay.
SPEAKER_03I think that's fine. But we've got more to talk about, so come on, let's get into it.
SPEAKER_05Okay, so moving on to relationships.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, where do you want to start?
SPEAKER_05Well, we have to start with Nick and Charlie. The bulk of the whole movie. I guess. Yeah, let's get it out of the way.
SPEAKER_01Alright. Okay, take it away.
SPEAKER_05Sure.
SPEAKER_01I don't know what's this new last speech on your thoughts.
SPEAKER_06It's okay if they're negative.
SPEAKER_03I I just want to hear what you've got to say.
SPEAKER_05I really am interested. Well, I have thoughts, I'll share them. Yeah. Essentially, this movie for me was a will they won't they storyline, but kind of inverse because they start off as a couple and then it's will they won't they stay broken up. I generally find these plots quite dull. Yeah, I mean too, because they are. They will get together, especially in this case, because basically it's been established over three years. Seasons that they are soulmates. Except they don't believe in them, but yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03I actually loathed when Nick said to Tao, Well, we're breaking up, and Tao said, Don't be stupid, you're Nick and Charlie. And I just thought, but you were Tao and L. So why can't you work out? Why are your relationship problems realer or worth more of a thought than Nick and Charlie's? Why do they not get the same support that they offer you?
SPEAKER_05Maybe I suppose. Maybe because Nick and Charlie were so codependent. So if they break up, what have they got? Whereas Tao and L are fully formed characters, there's so much going on with talents and things to pursue in their lives.
SPEAKER_03Perhaps. I just, yeah, I find it really tiresome. Uh when they did the split POV, I got a bit confused because it cut to Nick getting back in the car. And I thought, was that just him imagining what would happen if he broke up with Charlie?
SPEAKER_05I had the exact same thought because at the end of that sequence was Charlie basically looking like he was having a huge relapse and it was not looking good at all.
SPEAKER_03About to end it all, yeah. Mm-hmm. And then it just cuts to him and Nick in the car. And I was like, And then he drives home and he cries, and I just was I wondered if he was outside of his house about to knock on the door and prevent this ending of things.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that could have been clearer. Although that wasn't the direction it took. Or at least well, it kind of was because Charlie was in that spot, but then he wasn't.
SPEAKER_03Then it cuts to, you know, Nick in the car, he has a wee drive home, and we see his side of the coin. I can't even remember. He speaks to his mother, that was a really interesting part. And then we also see him speaking to hmm Imogene's friend? In the club. In the club. In the club.
SPEAKER_05In the club.
SPEAKER_03They're all fam. And she's like, Do you want me to set you out with any sexy guys? Oh girls.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And he says no.
SPEAKER_05I was like, ma'am, you're both 18.
SPEAKER_03Have some decorum.
SPEAKER_05Chill out.
SPEAKER_03But then why didn't Nick run after Charlie?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03He clearly wanted to see him. It seemed like he was going to, and then did not. And then it cut then that's the end of the flashback, and we're sorry, we're recapping the entire film apparently. And then we see Charlie finally eat again in the cafe.
SPEAKER_05Oh yeah, because he believes in love again when he sees the old couple.
SPEAKER_03But I just didn't understand that. There was so much showing in this. There was way more showing in this film than Tailing, but I couldn't understand what it was showing me and why.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I have to agree with that, which is a departure from the previous seasons. It was just so much crammed into one short film. I mean it wasn't that short, but you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it wasn't short, it was long. When it got to the breakup, and it wasn't even halfway through the film, and I just thought, what else is there to see? But never mind, sorry, ha ha! We really liked uh I guess my point would be I I do think that it is important to represent relationships in their highs and their lows for teenagers, specifically queer teenagers. Yeah, for a very long time historically, queer relationships were modeled on straight relationships because that's all we knew, that's all we saw in all media. And so to see teenagers have to experience these felt feelings and go through these emotions is important. But I don't know if it showed how important it is to have proper open communication.
SPEAKER_05I would agree that it didn't stick the landing on that. I think it attempted that was kind of the theme. Communication is important, and even Nick says it to Tawan L drunkenly at one point. But they weren't great at communicating, which is fine because they're very young and they've been together for two years, it's their first relationship. You can understand they've got a lot to learn. I don't think there was a happily tied up resolution at the end where they have talked through everything. They basically just both agree that they're great together and they'll have a lot more fun in the future, which is true.
SPEAKER_03Which is true, they're Nick and Charlie.
SPEAKER_05I think one of the main themes of this film is growing up and how relationships change from school and to university and beyond. And I actually think this film does a great job at showing that in a way that I haven't really seen in a believable way in coming of age British TV shows and films. In what way though? Just the conversations about what their relationship means and how it can adapt and grow. How as they get older, different issues come to the fore and become like things that were just not on the horizon at all when they were 15 or 16, everything just became a bit more adult, a bit more real. It shows how the real adult world gets in the way of a fairy tale romance. We all dream of a fairy tale romance, and Heartstopper gives us that in the first two seasons. This is that transition into the real world of you know, Nick being at university and so on, and we're seeing that even Nick and Charlie don't have the perfect relationship that can weather all the things that adulthood throws at you.
SPEAKER_03Well, they actually do have the relationship that can weather things, but that relationship that relationship that relationship has to grow and change in order.
SPEAKER_01Do we ever really change?
SPEAKER_03I don't think so. It has to change and grow in order to weather that storm. You cannot stay stagnant. It seems to me that Charlie has recognized that and understood that far earlier because of his mental health struggles than Nick has. Yes. But again, I don't think they quite stuck landing on that point. Precisely, because in a very rare moment of telling and not showing for this film, we get a scene where Nick turns to his mother, and it's one of the more impactful, emotionally impactful scenes in the film. But he turns to his mother and says, Dad was shit, and this is why I've got so many issues. What did you think of that? I thought that they just did not show enough of his relationship with his father for us to really understand and believe that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I completely agree. To me, that stood out as well as a scene that I was a bit like eye-rolly. I was like, come on, you can't condense all of this into one conversation with your mum. Just when your mum mentions your dad's name. It's like, oh yeah, by the way, he's the reason I'm like this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because we also sort of have shoehorned in moments of Dave, Nick's brother, also coming to the same conclusion. But sort of sitting in the grey of it and being like, I know dad's not perfect, but I love him anyway. And it's like, what does what does that mean?
SPEAKER_05Curious that he got so much focus when many of the actual main casts didn't I just can't quite understand.
SPEAKER_03Oh gosh, we we are really picking this apart. Sorry, no, sorry. Um I I thought that for the character that was believable, how it developed and happened. I I don't. I I could not. You cast doubt. It just seemed strange. Nobody has an epiphany like that. Well, the cast of Heart Stopper do.
SPEAKER_05True.
SPEAKER_03I just want to bring us back one moment to the neck drinking thing. Yeah. So he got very, very drunk once. Just once. And then shouted at Charlie for flirting with someone. Well, being flirted with. Which was again interesting when you talk about anger management issues. I do think it's just so important. If you are not secure in your relationship and in yourself, you can put that on your partner in order to be validated. Me and one of my exes did the exact same thing to each other. But he knew that I was obsessed with him. But whenever anyone flirted with me, he was like, Why are you engaging with them? And I was like, Because I'm trying to be polite and have some decor. And not make a scene. And not make a scene for once. Raffi. Whereas when he did it, he'd be like, Can't you see? Like, I'm not interested in them at all. And I just thought, okay, I would actually not care if you didn't care. But you care, so I feel like I have to care.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that was one of my least favourite scenes. I don't know, there's just some character growth for Nick in this film that I didn't like to see around alcoholism not alcoholism, but being drunk and being angry.
SPEAKER_03Being drunk just once and being angry several many times.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, but is he some kind of aggressive lout or is he soft, gentle, sweet Nick?
SPEAKER_03Actually, I think it maybe goes to show that when you are bottling up your feelings and emotions, they will manifest in ways that you cannot possibly predict.
SPEAKER_05I suppose. I never hit anyone.
SPEAKER_03Well, good for you. Until now! I'm gonna hit that fly.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, if I could punch that out of the air, that'd be good.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so the friendship group.
SPEAKER_05Our beloved characters we've grown to love.
SPEAKER_03Who are their names? Tara and Darcy Who? Tao and El who?
SPEAKER_05Set dressing.
SPEAKER_03Isaac Hu.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I was gutted that we didn't get more time with them.
SPEAKER_03For Tao and El, I just couldn't understand. All we saw was them breaking up. Which came out of nowhere. It wasn't foreshadowed, especially because Tao was so supportive of Elle's move. But El raises like a really good point that they are teenagers and that you can't neither of them can really afford to be jetting back and forth. She should have thought of that. But that's not really exactly. Well, no, she I think that's the thing. I think she did. I think her point was that they should break up.
SPEAKER_05But she maybe she'd already made that decision herself. Maybe. Because she had decided she wants to go to Berlin, and in that she was saying in a veiled way, which means we break up. And Tao was solutionising everything, being like, Oh, well, here's a way we can stay together. And maybe she humoured him for a bit, but then ultimately knew it wasn't gonna work. I was a lot more invested in their breakup and situation relationship, whatever you want to call it, than I was basically I wanted to see much more of that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and it was completely on the peripheral, but not as much on the peripheral as Tara and Darcy.
SPEAKER_05All we found out was that Tara decided to take a gap here. After all that.
SPEAKER_02We're going into railing!
SPEAKER_05Which is a great thing to do after uni. Or before uni.
SPEAKER_03But we don't even find out anything about Darcy. Zero. Did Darcy want to do that? Was Darcy conflicted about it? Does Darcy want to do anything? It's just so disappointing.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I wonder so much more. Spin-off of them traveling around Europe, why not? And then Isaac who? Isaac had so few lines. It's a disservice to the character. Like I'm wondering if Isaac is a stand-in for Alice.
SPEAKER_06Hmm.
SPEAKER_05I mean, in a way that he actually says at one point, Oh, I'm gonna write a book about all you lots. I thought, oh interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And then when Charlie goes to look at his laptop in the cafe toward the end, I was like, are we gonna see Heartstoff or no? Again, I again I'm just like, okay, then why is he gonna write a book about everyone? What is this? Who is this character? Nobody felt like they had any autonomy. It just felt like they were literal characters.
SPEAKER_05I mean, they are. They were given things to do that didn't really align with what they would want to do.
SPEAKER_03It was like, well done, you're resolved by Bactonic and Charlie. Yeah. It's just a shame. Yes. Yes. One thing that did come out of left field for me though was when they briefly touched on Tori and Michael's relationship.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean it was nice to get a bit of I mean Tori's one of my favorites.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, concur.
SPEAKER_05Okay, great.
SPEAKER_03Uh concur. But I just I would have really again liked to have seen that explored and explained so that I could understand. I guess not everything is to be understood. It's not all made for me. But it is media that I'm consuming. So you're allowed to comment on it. Yeah, if you're going to put those characters in a very different kind of relationship, explain to me what that means. Explain to me why it's good for both of them. Because I can see some of it, but I don't see all of it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, definitely agree with you there. It was just hinted upon. Tori was saying, Oh, you think you must not understand, you must think it's weird, but it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. And I was just thinking, who is saying it's weird? I mean, I'm here for all kinds of relationships in this show. I mean, I'm come on, we're not sat here being like, that relationship's okay, that one's okay, that one's weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm here for I'm accepting to all these different storylines and and characters. And yeah, it definitely merited more depth and diving into that. But again, it was just kind of a bit of a footnote.
SPEAKER_03As was Imogen being a lesbian.
SPEAKER_05I feel like that was very clunkily handled.
SPEAKER_03I think that was unnecessary. Could we not have just had uh an ally that learned about themselves and w was straight and was almost like a a point of view character for a straight person to help them navigate the rest of the characters?
SPEAKER_05I think that would have had much more value. I figured she was the questioning character. That's kind of why I saw her as. For her to land so decisively on lesbian, I don't really buy it based on what I've seen.
SPEAKER_03It just wasn't necessary for me. Yeah. In fact, it was unnecessary for me. I didn't like that choice.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, especially a rush to coming out in the bar.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I guess it got to hit home the fact that Nick has been so self-absorbed that he has ignored his friends. But there's plenty of other ways to deliver that message. Yeah. Tara being an alcoholic, maybe. If she was, who knows? We'll never see that story. But let's talk about the shhim.
SPEAKER_05Maybe because I've just watched season three and you know what I think about season three, because you heard me say it 20 minutes ago. There's too much kissing and making out, and I just I don't care.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so I don't care either, but I also don't care that there's so much. That there's so much. Like I didn't care. What I find really interesting was Nick and Charlie, or rather Kit and Joe, have quite good chemistry as the characters.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Not when they're having sex. It feels a bit awkward. It looks so clinical. Maybe it's the fact that they're very young, but then we've seen it done successfully on other TV shows, skins. But maybe I don't know. It just made me think to myself, why is this necessary? If they're not selling it, if it's not believable, we don't really need to see it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, again, I found it's high SM.
SPEAKER_03I did enjoy that they subverted some of the things. I mean can you go into more detail with that? Well, it seemed a little bit weird to me because Charlie goes to Nick's. I can't remember why.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And Nick is really down and he's like, I'm so glad you came. I'm so glad you've come to my my house. Can we have sex? The amount of times they said sex in this film. I just I never as a teenager said that word. I actually think that was quite believable. Really? Yeah. W maybe in Scotland that we just use slang then. What slang?
SPEAKER_02Shag. Fancier shag. Pump.
SPEAKER_03Oh. Can I pump you? No way. Yeah, that's what people said. With a straight face. I mean, I think it was always sort of said in a very cheeky wink wink. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was like playful. It wasn't meant to be serious and like, oh, I'm gonna pump you, but it was serious in like, let's do it. But anyway, so Nek is like, can we can we have sex? And and Charlie's like, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then it cuts to Nick getting real. And so I did enjoy that it sort of pushed the idea.
SPEAKER_03Don't just assume what someone wants. But then I felt like it was undone toward the end of the film when they get it back together and it's like bent over Charlie.
SPEAKER_06How disturbing.
SPEAKER_01I just you know, yeah, but they're versatile. They are, they are versatile, which we love to see. We do no, we didn't love to see them. No, but we do love to see versatile characters. V B.
SPEAKER_05There are a few other little points. Musak. Great soundtrack.
SPEAKER_03Okay, but it departed very heavily from the first three seasons. You think so? So it leaned much more general pop than it did brick pop.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Or a good ending. I'll give you that. I thought there was a lot of acoustic love songs in it, just like in the previous few seasons. Every opportunity they had a heartfelt person singing about love trying to get me to cry. And tell.
SPEAKER_02I know you want me. Obviously. I already know you're playing in Tobalo.
SPEAKER_03When I heard her playing in the club, I was like, that's the kind of club I want to go to. No, I know get me there. No. I was ecstatic, and I I wrote down in my notes that the prophecy has been fulfilled where there is Carly, there's Tuva.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, thank goodness that they finished Hotstopper with a Tuve Lou song in the soundtrack.
SPEAKER_03I needed it and I got it, and I'm so glad. Is that the song you would have picked? They could have put Bikini Porn in the Clurb. They could have put No One Dies from Love in the Clurp. Actually, That would have been perfect. That would have been better. Okay, never mind. Yes. That would have been perfect. Go listen to it if you don't if you don't know it. There was more Orla Gartland. There was one song by Baby Queen Roths. I don't know Baby Queen, sorry. She opened up the first episode of the first season. I believe. Okay, well. Oh, but wait, there was that crazy Christmas part of the film, which I couldn't believe because we are in a heat wave. The Queer Intentions sang a wonderful rendition of Dick the Halls. I guess so. That character Sahara's got a really lovely voice. She's also quite gorgeous. Yeah. She's had a major glow-up. I mean, she was gorgeous before, but she's like actually Yeah, it's very striking. She clearly was a teenager. Yeah. And she's just like Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so that's it for the soundtrack. Wax lyrical on that. It did look like a film. Did it? I really thought that the cinematography was interesting. It I thought it really did look very different to the series. I just didn't notice a difference. Really? I really noticed like different light and shade and different framing of the shots. Yeah. I didn't notice that really. Well, and then of course we've got to talk about the writing.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I think the main issue is how truncated the film was. There was just too much going on. What a great word. There was just too much to pack in.
SPEAKER_03So some of the dialogue felt contrived and I disagree that there was too much to pack in because there were so many sequences of nobody talking. Well, there were montages, no?
SPEAKER_05There was well, we didn't need montages. True, we did get a lot of shots of Nick at the animal shelter. Don't know if we needed those scenes.
SPEAKER_03Again, don't know if we needed that scene with his co- with him like telling his co-worker that he's got a boyfriend. Yeah. Because that never came back. Wow, we are really, really picking apart in this film. We didn't mean to, sorry. Ultimately, you know what? I think it was a pretty satisfying end for Nick and Charlie.
SPEAKER_05Definitely.
SPEAKER_03I I'm not satisfied with the ending for the rest of the characters.
SPEAKER_05No. Just because we didn't find out much about them. I mean, I like the idea of Tara and Darcy going on a trip. I like that Elle's gone to pursue art in Germany. Yes. That's really cool. This film makes a concerted effort to make you cry at every scene.
SPEAKER_03Were you gonna cry at that?
SPEAKER_05And I almost cried once, and it was when Tal showed up in Berlin. Really? Yeah, I don't know why it got me.
SPEAKER_03See, that's so interesting because I think that is a really crap ending for them.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Only because I just think it would do the characters so much more service to be like Elle is in Germany living her life by herself without Tal tying her to that place. Yeah. And Tal gets to move on.
SPEAKER_05But then Tao talks about at the prom how their love will keep them in contact and in each other's lives forever. That's a sweet sentiment.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I do agree. I think that is a very powerful statement to make. And well, I don't know. I just think I would have won I just wanted to see so much more of Elle. And you're right, I hope we do get a spin-off.
SPEAKER_05I think the most powerful scene of the film, if you'll permit me to say it.
SPEAKER_03No, I know what you're gonna say, and I I concur.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, Charlie says he doesn't want to go to the pride because he's in down in the dumps about his breakup. And Elle is just like that's really cute that you're gay and your boyfriend doesn't want to talk to you. I am actually in trouble here, like as a trans person in the UK. Like, I need support now. It's really important.
SPEAKER_03I I find it so interesting because I think that's the first time we have seen someone really ask Charlie to like step up, put your feelings and thoughts aside, and center me. Yeah, it didn't even occur to him to do it until he got told off. And baby, that's what all the LGBs should be doing for their tease at this moment in time.
SPEAKER_05And that's the TT.
SPEAKER_03And that's the TT. Yeah, really powerful. I mean, she's just gonna go on to do incredible things, I think.
SPEAKER_02Beautiful, beautiful girl.
SPEAKER_03Lovely gas, no, just beautiful person, everything about her.
SPEAKER_05She's captivating the way she talks and delivers her lines, and obviously she looks amazing. I would be so interested in watching anything she gets cast in.
SPEAKER_03I think she was wasted.
SPEAKER_05No, but she was, you know, discovered through this.
SPEAKER_03True. Yeah, good for her. Okay. Final thoughts. Uh, here's one for you. Oh. When I broke up with my ex in Paris, I said to my mother, who was living in London at the time with her teenage boyfriend. So they'd met each other, she'd went up to Scotland, had kids, and then she'd come back to London, they reconnected, and she was with them at the time. Anyway, she she came back, they found each other again. Cute. And I said to my mum, one of the things that is getting me through this breakup is that I believe that we will get back together in the future. And my mother said, Don't you dare look at my life and my relationship and look to that as some sort of aspiration. Or validation, justification, exactly. Because you need to figure out why this relationship ended, and should it have ended? In her opinion, yes, the relationship should have ended. And she was like, do not go through your life hoping and waiting to get back with that boyfriend. Go and live your life and do things. Because she was like, if I'd done that, you wouldn't have been here, your siblings wouldn't have been here. Yeah, it's a good lesson. She also broke up with him again. So it's just like, yeah, don't do it.
SPEAKER_05My point being, these sophomoric Oh my goodness, you love that word.
SPEAKER_03Thoughts and feelings. When you're a teenager, you really think something is for your entire life, be it your exam results, be it your current boyfriend, your current special friend, your current partner, or or anything, the circumstances of your life at that moment in time, you think that's forever. You think you are forever. You think you're not going to change or grow. Baby, you are. Yeah. And you should. And you should let it happen. Absolutely. And you should strive for progress. So whilst I think that the film, yes, Nick and Charlie should have ended up together, that whole breakup that they had almost felt like they broke up to prove that they could get back together and they would stay together. And I didn't like that part of it. I suppose I don't disagree with that.
SPEAKER_05As I kind of said before, a will they won't they plot line is so dull to me. So the fact that they broke up, I just wasn't really invested. I was I thought it was worth it if they achieved great personal growth in that time, but I didn't see that, at least for Nick. I think he did have some time apart from Charlie, was miserable. They got back together at the end, as I expected them to, and then neither of them were angry, and it felt like neither of them learned anything. I disagree.
SPEAKER_03I do think Charlie Okay, Charlie did. Yeah, Charlie did.
SPEAKER_05Hmm. So that was a bit disappointing for me. My final thoughts on the film it's an ending. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_06I'm confused. Is this a happy ending or a sad ending? It's an ending, that's enough.
SPEAKER_05So I'm content with that. I'm content that I've watched the whole thing. I finally got on the bandwagon, I've watched it. Now you can leave me alone.
SPEAKER_03Well, I don't know if it is an ending. No. To me, it very much looked like they are hedging and that they may continue the story in the future. With what? More films? Maybe more maybe another film, maybe another older series. Heart Starter. Okay.
SPEAKER_05When the character becomes what a paramedic or something. I don't know. Cardiologist.
SPEAKER_03It just it just looked to me like we could continue the story if we wanted, but this is a resolution. You could be right. I think the cast are gonna be scattered to the four corners of the wind. Of the world. The wind! The the wind doesn't have four corners, nor does the world, but well, I wish everyone great success. I do think that the series is important for people of a certain demographic, mainly age group. I don't think it's just for queer youth. I think it should be for all youth for humanization purposes. Yeah, but as you said before, youth. And we are sadly not youth. We are not youth, my word.
SPEAKER_05And we don't want to be. No, I've been there done that. Yeah. And we've grown.
SPEAKER_02And learnt and changed.
SPEAKER_05Okay, so. Okay, great. We did it. Let us know what you think. Yeah, um, if you have watched all of Heart Slopper and the film already, you're clearly a big fan of the show and the film and everything. Let us know what you think. Let's have a discussion.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, actually, yeah. We are going to put some more thoughts on the Patreon. If you really want to be part of the discussion, we will be replying very quickly there. But anywhere else, you can send us Instagram DMs or TikTok DMs, and we'll be happy to have a chat. And we might bring it up again on future episode with uh viewer submissions.
SPEAKER_05But for now, we're taking a bit of a break, I believe. Yeah, we're gonna take a break, not a hiatus. No, we're working really hard on season two. We're recording, we're editing, and we're gonna be releasing soon.
SPEAKER_03Soon. A C W N. But until then. Have a good one. But just one.
SPEAKER_05George Baikel.
SPEAKER_02Crazy. You need to guess.
