Animation Career Community
The Animation Career Community Podcast where we answer your questions on how to grow, maintain and transform your animation career at every stage.
Animation Career Community
ACC Podcast - S001E007 - Perry Shulak
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In this Episode we chat with Perry Shulak, who operates his studio, Critical Fusion, out of Edmonton, Canada. We talk about what the community is like in less talked about regions of the country and how diversifying his productions has helped him build his dome films and distribute them world wide.
Welcome to the Animation Career Community podcast where we answer your questions on how to grow, maintain, and transform your animation career at every stage. I'm your co-host John.
SPEAKER_00And I work on Catholic.
SPEAKER_01Today we're talking with Perry Trulach of Critical Fusion and the animation industry and ethnic. Get ready, it's going to be a good one. So welcome to the podcast, Perry. It's very nice to have you here.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Much much appreciated.
SPEAKER_01So we're quite excited to talk to you today. Obviously, your studio Critical Fusion, you do a lot of interesting things, a lot of different types of media. And geographically, you're located in Edmonton, Canada, which I think is very important for our audience to hear about because it's not often we talk about that area of Canada, especially when it comes to the animation industry. Now, Perry, um, we originally met quite a few years ago at the Ottawa International Animation Festival during the TAC conference. So for anyone that doesn't know, during the Ottawa Animation Festival, there's kind of a more business side to it for the first three days, uh, kind of alongside the actual festival where producers, broadcasters, professionals, studio owners kind of get together and have a chit-chat about the industry and their talks, panels, et cetera. Um, now, if I recall, we met at one of the conference festival events. And was that I think it was the cocktail hour, right? I think everyone was kind of gathered in the lobby and we were all mingling, probably trying to network if with everybody. Uh, because I think networking is important to our audience, right? Especially in times like this. So um, if I recall correctly, that was the case, right?
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes, definitely. And uh and as it and coming from Emmitton, um, yeah, it's necessary to get out and abroad and connect to people in other markets. And uh you were grateful to welcome me uh to the um to the event and provide me a lot of information to understand because it's the type of knowledge we just don't get much locally uh out of uh this particular city.
SPEAKER_01Right. And uh that was your first time in Ottawa doing that event, correct?
SPEAKER_03Yes, I've that was the first time, and it was quite a while ago, almost over 10 years ago. And over that time I've been to that event four times.
SPEAKER_01Right, yeah. And uh what was your kind of um your feeling about it coming you know into it for the first time?
SPEAKER_03I think at first it was a little bit overwhelming because the one thing we don't have in Edmonton is uh a dramatic animation industry. It's it's barely visible at all. So when you come into a market where uh and into kind of a event where there's a lot of talent that uh it it sort of it takes it takes you a little bit offhand because um but also it's uh it's it's it's welcoming and it's very um uh what what the term I can use is um inspirational.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03I think that's the key in coming from any kind of outside market that's not in mainstream is you need kind of threads to connect you to the larger market because then you don't really understand uh what it's all about and what the potential is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I I find the same thing. Like when I go to any of the festivals or conferences, I get energized from being around a lot of people in the same industry with obviously the same interest in doing something for the industry. Um, and kind of on that line, Perry, how did you actually become interested in animation? Like what was your background maybe as a kid? Like how did you just watch cartoons like probably most of us did?
SPEAKER_03I had sort of a roundabout kind of approach to the actual industry. I started drawing when I was six, and uh my grandparents gave me these big giant tabloid uh how to do animation books.
SPEAKER_01No, okay.
SPEAKER_03That sort of got me launched. And so, you know, as far as the technical process or in having the tools to do it, uh at that time didn't necessarily have that, but it allowed you allowed me the opportunity to kind of practice my drawing skills in a format that was a little bit different, right? Uh, and it provided enough foundational theory at that age when you're six to sort of, hey, this is pretty kind of cool stuff.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_03And um, and so that sort of ignited the whole desire to continue to um develop my drawing skills through um kind of the early years and to you know through high school and up to education.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03But then once I hit education, uh there wasn't really much of a kind of a visual industry in Edmonton. So I ended up uh going into the uh faculty of science and I spent two years in that particular faculty. But in my second year, I took a um kind of a preliminary program for um visual communications and design and arts.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03At that time, the program was still connected, the design program was still connected to the uh fine arts industry, and so we spent a lot a lot of that time was doing life drawing, developing our life drawing skills, doing live drawing. And so that really gave me a sort of a heads up and kind of allowed me to kind of further push my drawing skills and develop them. And I managed to nail that course so much so that it allowed me to transfer from the sciences into the faculty, fine arts, and the design program. And since the design program is still was was back then still part of the fine arts program, the kind of life drawing and developing those drawing skills continued.
SPEAKER_01Right. Well, that's amazing. Like I find, first of all, like when you were talking about your parents giving you those tabloid books, it makes me think of the Preston Blair kind of how to draw for animation type, you know, tabloid books. Those were those big, yeah, gigantic formats, and they he gave you all the kind of the basics and fundamentals of drawing, animating, silhouette drawing, you know, things that a lot of our audience obviously would be familiar with. Um, and it seems like your parents were quite uh encouraging of this direction for you, which is quite amazing too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, my mother, my mother would had a kind of a knack for a creative knack, and it's always been she was involved in sculpting and show she would sculpt these Elvis Presley heads. Uh so it sort of was something that was always around and you know part of our environment.
SPEAKER_01Wow, amazing. Um, so let's let's talk about your company, Critical Fusion. Um uh maybe you can just tell us what your studio is all about for an audience that doesn't know your studio and the work that you do.
SPEAKER_03Well, I guess I'm technically the studio um yeah, I have expanded and and shrank depending on the need of actual projects.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_03And this allowed me to be a little bit more flexible in my practice. So I sort of operate like initially I was more involved in the kind of interactive side of things, developing a lot of interactive content. Um, I guess into getting into that, I ended up working uh like career-wise two years for Access Television in their kind of creative department. And that's where I sort of first initially got the opportunity to actually do animation production.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03So we were using back then, way back then, when Access existed, the 3D tools were somewhat limited. We were I was using Infinity D and Strat S Studio Pro and trying to figure out how to render across this kind of little first setup internal network of computers where it was really kind of limited. And so I had to kind of deal with the what you call the drop out of frames and all those issues in those early phases. But it was it was that opportunity to kind of work with the tools and develop the initial skill sets in the 3D format.
SPEAKER_00And what was the industry like at that stage? Has it changed a lot since then, or is it still relatively small?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, since then the industry hasn't shifted. Actually, since um what happened with Access Television is it was originally a government-owned or kind of supported organization, and then it was sold off to Moses Zanier for one dollar. And then uh as Moses Zanier can continued to run it as he was received while he was receiving additional support from funds from the Alberta government. But once uh that ended, then the whole channel just got cut and it was just kind of spliced to the side and disappeared. So there's not really any uh or not a sizable uh level of kind of much of a broadcast industry in Edmonton. Right. So that's sort of part of the funnel that led to, I would say, a much more smaller, um, less robust market.
SPEAKER_00And so is your clientele tends to be outside of Edmonton?
SPEAKER_03My clientele, like I I since I'm fairly diverse, I do a fair lot of design work. But a lot of content that's developed, I um apply to the Alberta Media Fund, and they provided provide me what you call initial support funds to get my concepts and ideas out there. And and that's sort of the what I've done with the kind of the very first dome show I developed, which was Legends of the Northern Skies. I sort of developed a concept, and at first, uh, you know, in kind of applying for that fund, they didn't really understand what I was trying to achieve. And uh we weren't necessarily successful on the first run, but on the second year, we sort of land or I landed the funding, and so that allowed me to kind of develop all the initial phase um content, develop a script and a story and some kind of initial branding for that particular production, right? And then in so that allowed me to kind of step forward. Then what I did is I took that package and presented it to the telescroll to science adminton and said, you know, here's something, maybe you would like to do this. And that's when it all started to take off.
SPEAKER_01So was that sorry, um, I just wanted to clarify that. Is that then the genesis of your company, Critical Fusion?
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, sort of. It's sort of kind of a lead-in. Like for years and years and years, I spent a lot of time developing uh interactive educational resources. A lot of them were for K-12 for kids-based content, and a lot of it was very heavy visual oriented, and we did kind of integrate some of the 3D stuff into those uh applications, and we kind of also introduced a fair amount of animation-based work on a more modular level, right? And uh, so as I kind of progressed through that, um, the market kept on changing and shifting, and and and to ensure that I can remain viable, I just kind of shift along with it, and then it wasn't until I sort of hooked up with the telus world of science that all of a sudden this sort of whole new initiative or kind of market opened up for me, which was these dome shows.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah. I want to get into the dome shows uh in just a quick moment, but um I just wanted to also mention your company, you also do websites, you do graphic design. So you've got kind of like a broad set of skills that allows your company to kind of obviously stay afloat during times like this because there are tons of other animation companies that are very specific to animation that tend to struggle as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and Edmonton, you have to be a little more diverse and variable. Uh, and it's a lot of those other projects that sort of pay the bills that allow me to kind of remain in the hunt for developing more animation-related content. And uh, and if you if you didn't have that diversity, you would be kind of stuck because then uh they're just too too great a gap between um projects to kind of cover off all your costs. And then also, in addition, some of these projects that come along in the design realm, um, like I just wrapped up an animated explainer video for the city of Edmonton, it allows me to kind of engage and bring a few, bring another person, another animator on the project, give her a little bit of opportunity to kind of create do some work and create some cash flow. And it allows me to kind of build up my portfolio a little bit more. And also, again, it all provides that bridge uh getting that allows me to get to the next production.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was curious about what your structure looks like on average. Like, is it you mostly and you're uh hiring out freelancers? Do you have more specific specific people you bring in regularly?
SPEAKER_03Oh, for a while, like when I was doing interactive stuff, I did have a team, I did have staff, and I built up to about eight or eleven staff. But when I get into a kind of a secondary mode, when I start like like more currently, there was a point once I started getting into the Dome stuff, there was a desire to do more to spend more time script writing and start to kind of compose these things from top to bottom. And so when I get now that I'm in that sort of mode, uh when I'm sort of writing and scripting, I don't want to have to worry about trying to keep staff busy.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03So that allows me a little more flexibility that I can kind of focus specifically on those projects and put the effort in as both a writer and a visual creator to ensure that I can develop enough composite of content that when I actually do go for financing, that has much greater chance of landing it.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. Yeah. I think that's you know, it's very uh, you know, it's it's very telling of most studios when you hear the owner speak of bringing in crew, bringing in people, giving uh, you know, especially new younger artists a chance to develop their skills, but at the same time, get them engaged in the work in the industry. To, I mean, it's better in your company, obviously, right? Like you're you're building up your own company's portfolio, but giving these people an opportunity, whether it's a small project or a larger project, which you know, I have a little bit of experience with too. Like my company does the same thing where on occasions when I have a project that is obviously out of my own scope to do all by myself, which happens more often than not. Um, you know, you bring in five, six, sometimes 10 people to help get that work done, but get it to the quality, as you say, right? Ultimately, you want these projects to get off the ground because if you're working on development funding, you know, there's no guarantee it'll get off the ground unless your presentation of that project is top-notch and you can then get a uh the Alberta Media Fund or any other funding organization to open up the wallets even more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what comes to mind for me is like how similar that is to big studios as well. That they're they're dealing with on a different scale, but you know, they're dealing with the same issues of like we need to get the next project, who can we keep on? Uh it seems to be a similar business, like obviously different to a certain degree, but it's still the same concept to get the next project, crew up, decrew, what you know, where can you cut some extra funds for? Uh so it's interesting that even the small and big studios are struggling with the same uh same problems.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think a lot of it is just kind of where the investments come from as well. And in in this day and age, what the industry is is experiencing right now is just you know, kind of a lack of funding across the board.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, I know when you're dealing with uh, especially when you're dealing with kind of like a city of like Edmonton, when the when the kind of the rest of the market, there seems to be kind of this shift. You'll see a lot of producers appear, like in Edmonton, that will have these kind of animation initiatives where they kind of key in, and all of a sudden, uh when the market drops out, those kind of producers kind of drop off, uh, mostly because um they themselves have no capacity to develop the content or the visuals.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03And uh, and in most cases, you know, it's not a cost that they can necessarily absorb. I guess what makes me uh a little bit unique is that that I come at it not only as a producer, but also as kind of a creative writer and an animator. So I can sort of take whatever funds that the Alberta Media provides me initially and bring it to a point where it um has viability. And also what's also unique, and that's different than say broadcast, uh, the dome show is not necessary, dome shows are not directly connected to any one distribution structure. So like and it has a revenue model built into it. So it when I'm sort of chasing after those funds, for example, the next project I'm working on, which is the impossible journey, um, I can approach the CMF and have a viable kind of track record and a revenue model that works. That's that's a commercial revenue model. I'm not putting on a broadcaster to give me a little letter of agreement to say uh that yeah, they'll take it. I have kind of a purposeful kind of approach en route where any investment will have guaranteed payback.
SPEAKER_00And can you can you talk about the dome shows? You've mentioned it a couple times, just explain what that looks like.
SPEAKER_03Uh Dome Dome format is completely different than traditional kind of film. It has a whole different imagine when you're developing traditional kind of production, it runs in a square box. Whereas in Dome, you sort of have to think about the whole world. It's almost like a theatrical, immersive theatrical experience where uh where kind of movement and flow becomes more part of the process and trying to keep your audience engaged. And also it gives you opportunities kind of to play with a much greater space. You sort of have to almost imagine your audience inside of a uh one of those little snow globes that you shake and then all the snow kind of goes all over the place. You're in it and involved in it, so it has a lot more, I would say a lot more emotional impact on the audience because it's overwhelming. It can be overwhelming. And so when you present and build, you have to be a little bit aware of that. Uh and there's also the possibility if you if you if if there's too much movement and spinning, uh your audience can start throwing up.
SPEAKER_00So so it's your tri is it I'm picturing like uh you're sitting in this in an auditorium and it's a round dome around the audience, like and and how is it projected onto this dome?
SPEAKER_03We uh they usually they have this approach, like there's this whole developed structure, standardized structure that's been developed over the last many years where they develop these um what you call dome masters. And so the actual dome, uh depending on the actual technology that goes into the dome, uses a series of projectors that then are blended. And so uh okay. So in Edmonton, just recently, or not long ago, when I did my dome show, they introduced a whole new built a new system and rebuilt the dome. And so now it kind of projects at a 10k resolution, so it's fairly high res. Whereas you you are getting new technology like the dome in Vancouver's all LED, but not everybody can afford to build a $2 billion dome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. This makes me think of so I worked on a project that was uh not a dome, it was like an indoor space that and it was projected on all walls, and there was some interactivity with the audience, but the audience is moving around in the space. But but what you're saying about like fast motion, where you're drawing the eye of the audience is really different for for such a large exposure. Uh, your brain inputs that information differently. So as the artist, you have to change your style of motion, I would imagine.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you have to think about the kind of movement of uh flow around the environment and also how to attract the audience's eye, because there's certain kind of approaches that you can use to sort of ensure that your audience is looking in the right direction, because a lot of this is is about like I sort of look at the dome as kind of three different sort of patterns where you have kind of idealized movement that attracts the audience's eye, that that's part of what encapsulates encapsulates the story. Where is the story? And you want to take them to that point, and then you have what you call the kind of global exposure, or you could it's more of like a uh a focused awareness of the actual dome's. structure right and so you can create visuals that kind of roll around the dome and embrace that format but then you also have kind of the virtual space where you can now be build what you call expansive spaces that people can actually travel and move through and that's really kind of neat when you can kind of create kind of sylla simulated environment where you're moving from destination to destination almost as if you're in a real world.
SPEAKER_00That's cool. And is it does it tend to be educational formats that that they're looking for?
SPEAKER_03Yeah most it's not always all cases like most cases when a uh planetarium is looking to kind of license a show they want uh science-based content that that's their mandate but alternately uh we're seeing a kind of a growing need for a kind of a demand for shows that are more experiential uh and a little more diverse but those those shows are usually ticketed and also um a uh a company will license or or rent the dome and and and then they'll they will kind of handle and manage the actual kind of ticketing uh from afar I see and if somebody's renting the dome like a company are they utilizing you directly through uh the domes like with the I I'm not sure the planetarium or whoever owns the space are they reaching out to you to to build contents um not directly I build all my own content a lot of these kind of siloed like the one production that's been running both in Edmonton and Calgary and is in about 10 other descent locations in the states is titled Beatifica and um I can't say it's you know it's a visually interesting production but not necessarily educational. It's one of those things where it's kind of a hit and miss depending on what your who your audience is um but then what they do is they they will rent directly from the TALUS world of science the facility and then and then and then they have specific set rates and and get a return on investment from that that approach.
SPEAKER_01I see I was wondering what what does your crew look like when you're doing one of these dome animations? Like is it a fairly large ish crew like I guess depending on the amount of work and obviously your your budget and everything.
SPEAKER_03Well most dome shows on average there's two different types of shows that usually out there you get the ones that are licensed uh by planetariums they run them and cycle them through the day and those shows run from 21 to 26 minutes and so you for me I usually pull together a small team of about three or four people and then spend a year developing the actual show.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03On a larger scale I haven't got to that larger scale yet because that's still a kind of an elusive market.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03Domes are still sort of deemed as experimental to some extent and there's not a lot of developers in Canada that develop that sort of content. We have some people in Montreal but as far as Western Canada I believe I'm the only person out here who's developing dome shows up in Western Canada. Wow amazing yeah and what kind of software do you guys using I uh work with uh Cinema 4D as kind of standard platform mostly because it's a um unlike other 3D packages it's more a design oriented package for motion graphics and that type yeah but it also has built in a uh kind of a a dome camera that allows you to capture your kind of surrounding environment render it out and then it gets composited um into after effects wow how um like let's say just kind of an overall broad number um how long does it take you to produce one of these dome animations so from start to finish let's say usually the way it works it's always a setup obviously I go through the initial phase research and that's usually an almost a year ahead ahead of times because I have to go through the process of submitting for funding and whatever else. So that's kind of initial phase from concept to get lending the initial phase funding to write the script then in in the script writing mode it usually takes about three or four months to kind of build that out because also in that process I also build out a demo about a three or four minute demo. Okay. And then once we go into production usually um what I'll do is I'll storyboard it out first before I bring my team in that way I'm fully prepared uh when we go into the actual production and um and then once my team gets hooked up then it takes about a year to build the show. It's usually well kind of tightly managed and so there's a process involved and and then and then once most of the animation is is complete it's about four months to render out oh wow that's crazy.
SPEAKER_00So but it does sound like a big chunk of this process is you're on your own developing and and writing this stuff that's pretty that's an intense part to do by yourself without uh input um do you find do you have processes uh built into that for yourself to like get input from people do you get feedback from certain people in that process?
SPEAKER_03Yeah usually it's I work with the Tales World I've been have been working with the Tales World of Science uh uh on the previous project they were involved in the script writing process and were uh provided me feedback to kind of tighten it up uh and get it to a point where uh the script's kind of solid and foundational um the the one challenge in that I find is that um they themselves didn't really have any experience developing dome shows either it was a whole learning research process to figure this out and and not only that is that while we were building the show they were renovating their dome and so that wasn't even accessible to based off so yeah we were a little bit in the dark but but uh beforehand I was I traveled out to uh multiple conferences they have it um immersive media conferences in and around the world so I went to ones in Colorado and in Columbus and that's where I developed enough kind of understanding of how to kind of approach script writing and visualization because when you after a while after watching about a hundred of these dome shows you get a better idea of best practices and and that's key to understanding what the market is what the demand is and how to properly package these things to ensure that they're uh marketable how big are these conferences like how big is outside of Canada how big is this industry small uh Europe is big it's a far bigger industry abroad in Europe and in the Asian continent and in the US uh in the US they have about 300 domes uh Japan has about three or four hundred and there are about 600 domes in China so it's um it's a lot greater much more wider market abroad than what we have available here in and in Canada.
SPEAKER_00Does it tend to be animation based for these domes as well?
SPEAKER_03There is like like the Legends we did use some 360 video in it to be shot full 360 video for a segment but in most cases when you're shooting 360 um your your camera has limited movability and is kind of stagnant whereas in three it gives you opportunity to kind of move around like a flow it gives you a lot more flexibility in environment and space so it makes the experience that much more dynamic. Right yeah that makes sense and I think I mean in in terms actually here's a quick question for you is the international global market something you're going after actively with these doing animations my first show legends uh we um last year sold a license into China which is I can't have done that we have sold um 10 about 10 licenses in around North America we converted it also to French language so it's also a Mandarin language for the Chinese market and it it it came it was um shown in France and it came in third place at uh international um um dome festival in in France and also not long ago was in Romania at the Astrofilm Festival in CBU.
SPEAKER_01Amazing congratulations so uh is this a like a main focus of your business at the moment the dome shows like right now is shifting become more kind of a running part of my business like right now I have sort of two projects in motion that are um one that I'm sort of getting close to chasing after financing the other one's in an initial phase development I have scripts for two other projects I've written previous and so I sort of starting to build what you call a um kind of a library of IPs that's really cool um actually I just wanted to touch on kind of being based in Edmonton now we've talked about that a little bit you've talked about kind of the funding that you you access the Alberta Media Fund um a bit of some of the resources but I wonder if you can touch on that a little bit more kind of maybe explain to the audience from your experience what you know what the biggest differences are and the challenges are because you know when we talk about the industry what oftentimes comes up is what's happening in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. But obviously you're in an area that probably doesn't get enough attention first of all and probably because of the scale um could probably use a little more support I would think.
SPEAKER_03Yeah Edmonton's a little bit of a void and the the challenge is trying to find a rational reason why and also have uh some sort of router funding that allow animators just to do animation. For me I I get my funding through the um the grant route or through script writing and so Alberta has a fairly strong pre-development and script development fund. So it allows me to kind of get the initial footing and phases done but there's actually uh no money for just doing animation and so that makes it a little bit of a challenge kind of to bridge things out and so you have to be a little bit more creative in your approach there there is a little bit of kind of a corporate industry here not strong and so that allows for some opportunities but it's just a matter of persistence you just have to decide that you're gonna do this and you're gonna find a way to do it you know no matter what and you just have to stick to it because there's just no other like there's no necessarily any kind of visible ways out. We did just start up just recently not long ago there is was there is an animation group Edmonton animation group that just be started just started going but it is still in its inertial phases and it's still trying to figure out um trying to get some grounding and trying to figure out how to put a process in place that they can properly take people up to a next level and also develop some sort of uh maintain support to help build the industry locally kind of grow it right and are you sorry sorry John uh are you drawing from artists locally when you're when you're crewing up for animators or do you have to search elsewhere uh the thing about most grants in most provinces it's all localized right so for a meet in order to actually get and benefit funding from the Alberta Media Fund it has to come from kind of local talent.
SPEAKER_01Yeah how is that talent pool for you like as you brought in people to work on your projects or maybe even what you see and hear from the schools um how how do you think that talent level is currently well well unlike other cities we don't have kind of strong schools I think we have we have this one school we have an eight month program and then Nate puts out some students but where we do benefit at least more recently is that we're seeing an influx of animators starting to move back to Edmonton because of the markets abroad are dropping off.
SPEAKER_03So originally they started here they travel out to Vancouver spend you know five 10 years in the industry there and all of a sudden they're going well now it's time to come back home because there's no work left there.
SPEAKER_01So it sounds like like in terms of overall your industry there could definitely benefit from more development and that can come from as you say like professionals moving back to the province back to Edmonton but maybe there's other ways like more um outreach programs maybe more you know co-production deals maybe even more conversations like we're having today right where you know other professionals can share ideas share production pipelines um how things work on a larger scale smaller scale you know because again there every point of view brings some value to it right yeah yeah it requires well Edmonton requires investment opportunities and and the chance to actually give animators that opportunity to kind of immerse themselves in the process for an extended period of time.
SPEAKER_03And you have a lot of people who have some initial education from the local programs but unless they get a full-fledged experience on a project a larger scale project you know their skills only go to a certain point and it it doesn't necessarily allow the industry to expand quickly but but but I find like this content I'm developing what's unique about it it does provide uh those people who come on board on that project the opportunity to kind of get a much wider vision of the whole approach and process because when I'm working on a kind of a more smaller scale it means that everybody has to have on the project develops a more generalized approach to the process.
SPEAKER_01Sure yeah yeah they yeah you get exposure to different uh techniques and different roles yeah for sure yeah sometimes that necessity you know forces you into a corner where you have to learn other skills and develop other skills and even even sometimes just the knowledge and experience of the business side I I know that from my earlier years as I kind of grew into my career and I became a little more curious and worked with smaller studios you you actually are immersed in more of the business and more of the everyday and you realize oh you know you need this to run a studio you need to you know you need to make money to keep the doors open so how do you make money it's not you know it's not a simple case of oh money just grows off trees right like you know talking about the funding you know the need for the funding because you know for a lot of people who who may be new to the industry animation is very costly it's not something you can do with a a a simple tool or device and just have it done for you. You know and back in our day obviously when things were on paper and painted on cell and then shot on film and if any mistake was made you would have to completely redo that shoe right um it was a very very very costly process and even on a larger scale with series work that I've been involved with you know the overhead cost to have a studio with people in those chairs is quite high. So you know being able to you know land a contract like that for a studio, make sure that those costs are covered but hopefully at the end of the day have some kind of profit out of it to keep the doors open you know when that project ends because every project does end within a certain finite period.
SPEAKER_03Yeah and I think that's um also what's unique about Edmonton it forces us to um push towards developing original content as opposed to bring content in from abroad.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03Because we don't really have that base here currently where some American entity is going to come to Edmonton all of a sudden decide to have a production done here and developed. We sort of have to find ways to kind of come up with our own ideas and and push them forward. And part of that is in the script writing and also in the kind of the functional paperwork involved in going after the funding.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03And so anyone who's sort of coming into it who thinks that it's all about just the creative it's not just about the money side of it and also figuring out how you're going to get a return out of this whole process like how generate kind of sales on any kind of kind of product and also about thinking about how to apply your skills to content that's not just broadcast because I mean broadcast is kind of a kind of a decreasing realm and market that um is also going through its own issues. And so in order to sort of from my perspective to grow the animation industry from a place like Emmett you have to find other markets other routes for getting your content out and for me dome stuff perfect.
SPEAKER_01It works right I mean amazing um and actually that's a great segue because one of the questions we had which again kind of touched on already is networking like how do you kind of network other professionals and obviously from what you just said too about you know creating your own content in Edmonton and kind of having a unique space for Edmonton but now you got to try to sell that to other markets other regions so obviously it sounds like networking will be very important especially to someone like yourself with your own studio.
SPEAKER_03Depending on what what what you're which kind of circles you're moving in like I sort of shifted in at times into the the what you call the exhibit side of things for a while as well where it was more kind of museum large scale interactive exhibit stuff and have worked on projects that uh went into places like uh New York and Napa Valley out in the US um but uh usually those come through kind of connected opportunities and through relationships uh in the networking process right and uh and same with domes I tend to I've gone to about six different um immersive media conferences over the over the past years in Columbus Columbus Colorado Montreal and uh last year I was in Jena Germany and it's in that process uh in that approach of getting out there not only to sort of consume content to be aware of what's going on within that kind of market niche but also connecting to people who are involved not only in the creation process but also in distribution because distribution channels that are key and and the the distribution model is also always changing. There's um you know there also there's becoming a a shift from we call a uh a sole distributor to kind of a kind of multi-distributor approach to uh right getting your product out there and and if you understand it and you kind of connect to the right people you know where to go to get your product into the planetariums on a worldwide basis because I think that's where growth is going to happen. It's not going to be happen in Canada it has to be international.
SPEAKER_01So actually you touched on kind of the multi-distributor kind of evolution I guess if I can call it that is that um due to a number of factors let's say like where our industry is kind of at right now is that kind of sharing cost sharing resources for marketing that that kind of stuff yeah a lot of it is because uh distributors are kind of a little bit um isolated or containered like you'll have a distributor in the US uh there's one in Montreal and and then the Asian market there are separate distributors for different regions in in Asia as well and so by having a little more diversity and how it kind of approach different markets it ensures that you can content can get to a wider audience because at the end of the day it's about how many dome shows you can light
SPEAKER_03Are how many licenses you can sell, the terms, the value of your product, and how you technically can invest.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And actually, just to wrap up kind of the kind of the networking thing, uh, you're talking about these conferences, and I know that um, you know, there are some funds available to producers for travel, right? Like to actually promote your products and your projects. Uh, are you able to access any of those? Have you accessed those?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, a lot. Well, more recently, um Emington Screen has provided an initial kind of phase funding that covers 75% of travel. And that makes a huge difference because it allows me to kind of move about a little more kind of regularly. Uh, before I had to fund a lot of these things myself, but in most cases, uh the costs are manageable within the kind of scope of the project. Um but as far as kind of alternate sources, that's something I've never there, I believe there are other funding available through other other government branches, but because it's such a kind of a unique medium, um, a lot of these other funds tend to cater to technology or other practices, not necessarily to me. Right.
SPEAKER_01Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I've seen that before too. Um, actually, we're coming close to time, but I wanted to get one other question in for you. Um, you know, what is your hope for the current and future industry in your region in Edmonton? Um, do you have any pie in the sky dreams, ideas? Is there something you really, you know, is burning inside your heart you really want to kind of see happen?
SPEAKER_03Well, I I like like like anybody in your region, you'd like to see it grow. But for me, it's always a personalized ideal. I see this idea of the of like I have this kind of graded plan to grow my productions and eventually put in place an ongoing stream of animators that I can keep rolling full time on a regular basis. That's why I I like the idea of having this portfolio of IPs of projects that are already scripted and ready to go. That means that I can have a list that all of a sudden it can build in and kind of get rolling. And uh I think that's key because um it's all about kind of allowing talent to develop their skills and get to a point where they can master specific disciplines. Uh and for me, it's mostly in the dome world.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. Wow. Um, Kathy, did you have anything else you wanted to ask, Perry?
SPEAKER_00While we're I guess I'm curious if you partner with the schools locally at all when you're looking for talent.
SPEAKER_01That's a good question.
SPEAKER_03Uh I I worked with Nate to some extent and have hired people or brought people in out of the program. Some of the people were that were initially on my project came out of Nate. Um, but then others had kind of fundamental support before that. One of the people's actually went to film school in Vancouver before they came to Nate. And so, you know, I have been in discussions in times past, but their kind of mandate is always changing. And uh more recently, they kind of bridged more towards game development than animation because of the not so kind of widely available animation industry here. I do attend some of these kind of smaller functions with this uh other smaller school here that we have locally, but but their talent is they is not developed to a point where I could say that I can easily just bring them into a project and think that they're gonna be able to run with it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you have to invest in them to get them up to speed.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's something and it's something when you're working in a kind of a small market like I am, you can't you don't want to spend two years investing in somebody to get them up and running. You have to ensure that the people have enough supplemental skills that they can get up and kind of turn the project over effectively and efficiently. And we do have those people here because now they're all coming in from other regions, and uh, and so I have kind of uh ongoing communications with those people that I intend to plan in on my projects, and so I sort of work with them to ensure that they're prepped and ready to go. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01Nice. I think that's always going to be the case, like it doesn't matter what school someone is from, you know, there's always some kind of ramp up time to the real world because what they're taught and what they experience in school is kind of a like a, you know, it's it's a bit of its own bubble, it's a bit of its own sphere within its own context of that space and that timeline. So I know like coming from Sheridan and then getting my first job, it was like day and night, to be honest. It's like, okay, we were taught all these things, but now that I'm in a studio and this is the expectation, this is the pace, this is the you know, the kind of the quality level. Oh, it's a completely different style. I was never taught to draw, you know, at school, basically. You know, there's all these things that obviously a new student or at least a you know a graduating student will still have to kind of get acclimatized to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, in school too, you're also taught a generalized look at each role rather than specializing, which is what people do when they're working more most of the time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's where internships, you know, can really be helpful. Obviously, not every student can be placed that way, but uh Perry, it sounds like what you're doing to help at the very least is amazing to your city.
SPEAKER_03I guess the one thing that they just recently introduced in the past year with the Alberta Media Fund, and part of this what you call a made in Alberta fund, which is what I'm chasing, is that they included a percentage for mentorship. And so that provides us kind of a foundational find where you can bring people in and kind of um manage your costs keep and uh and allow someone to come in and and further expand their experience as a developer and producer. And so rather than just me trying to kind of fill that out, I could sort of bring somebody in and give them enough understanding or an experience to kind of take over and hopefully become future developers of dome shows.
SPEAKER_01Wow, amazing.
SPEAKER_03That's cool, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Where was all this when I was a student? Um actually, we're just coming up onto time now. Um, so we usually ask our guests a question, kind of a little bit of a random question, kind of at the end. But uh one we do like to ask of our guests is um, was there a particular time or a particular event um that you're very proud of that, you know, maybe changed you or was a challenge in your life, maybe just during your career? Could be unrelated too, but uh, is there something that you've been through that you know you you perhaps faced an obstacle that you've managed around and over and are very proud of? Something you can share with the audience.
SPEAKER_03Uh I think a lot of it is about but see the thing is I come from kind of visual side, so but I've always had this kind of knack for writing. And so some of the initial content I started writing a lot of it is about pushing yourself through to bring something to completion. So I started developing this one concept or idea called state of mind, and um it was geared more towards actual animation production, and so more or less initially I just sort of put my time in, but it I worked it towards to a point where actually f finished the script. And that was like a realization that hey, I can do this, yeah. But then you know it gets to a point, for example, like Legends, is I I've worked my way through that process and put it out of product, but but what I begin to realize is the thing about dome shows, they run in your community, they've been there, they're there for a long time, they get far more screen time than average production. Like Legends have been running at the Telus World of Science for like five years now. But you go into community and you start connecting with people, uh, and people's, oh, I saw your show, it was really great. Really, and yeah, when you get that kind of glowing positive kind of reply from people in the community, you begin to realize, geez, I did something and somebody actually got something out of it, it had value to them, and that's what it sort of brings it home where you go, geez, it's sort of like the motivation that continues to drive your purpose. You know, if you get something out and somebody gets something of it of value that affects their lives, that's when it gives your product more meaning. Yeah, I love that. I love that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, it's great when you you have even as you say, even that one person says how it's affected them. You know, it's it's such an inspiration to take from. And I've had that happen a few times myself and sometimes in other areas of my life. I'm sure we've all hopefully all experienced that at least once in our lives. But it is something that, you know, it if for the first time you've just experienced that, um it's so profound. You don't you don't understand how it feels until it happens, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, especially in a visual medium where a lot of the work is done away from people without any kind of uh direct contact with an audience. So it's it's pretty refreshing when you you see, oh, it had an impact outside of just my little world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think that's where people get excited. Obviously, you know, for anyone that works on TV productions or feature films or you know, streaming now, obviously, as well. Um, the first time you get to see your name in the credits list, and you know, you tell your parents, oh my God, I worked on this show, and your parents see your name in those credits, and everyone's proud of you because you've you've done something that is now reaching out to an audience, whether that audience is again, it doesn't matter whether the audience is within a country globally, maybe it's across a few cities, depending on the broadcast as well, right? But I think that's yeah, definitely something to be very proud of. And Perry, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been amazing to hear you talk about, you know, what you do. The dome animations still so fascinating to me. Um, something I would like to try my hand at at some point, you know, something a little bit different than our typical productions here. But uh it just seems like to me, and actually what you said just recently, the fact that, you know, their their playtime is actually longer than a lot of productions, right? You know, having um, you know, this under your belt and storytelling through these dome animations and again having an effect, not just a local audience, but now you're getting visitors from around the world who visit, let's say, the science center and go into these domes to watch these animations. I think it's quite incredible.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's not just that, it is that we we take kind of something like what we call a crafted Alberta story, and then it starts to find its way around the world. Like right now, Legends just sold a uh five-year license to the Ecoterium in Massachusetts, and that's a huge stretch. And that means uh that show is going to be running in a facility in some far location for five years, and so so it it there's there's kind of the exposure and also the kind of idea that that Alberta is kind of bringing bringing stories out to the world and getting there. There's sort of some progress, which is kind of neat.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. Well, we are done for time. So again, Perry, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a real pleasure. We really thank you for offering your experience and all your backgrounds and explaining your dome animations and everything. It's been a treat for us, and hopefully it's been a treat for our audience as well.
SPEAKER_03Thank you.
SPEAKER_01All right, so to the audience, thank you for joining today. Uh, we will see you on the next podcast. The ACC podcast is created and hosted by Kathleen McDonald and John Lee. Music by Mike Romaniac, mixing and editing by Kathy McDonald and produced by Kyrene Kent.