Animation Career Community

ACC Podcast - S001E008 - Alicia Eisen

• Katherine • Season 1 • Episode 8

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In this episode of the Animation Career Community podcast we chat with professional Animator and Creator Alicia Eisen.  With years of experience working the stop motion space both as an artist and studio owner. Alicia shares what her career has been like and how working as an independent creator, creates unique challenges and partnerships.  

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to the Animation Career Community Podcast, where we answer your questions on how to grow, maintain, and transform your animation career at every stage. I'm your co-host John.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm your co-host Kathy.

SPEAKER_03

Today we're talking with professional animator and creator Alicia Heitz about navigating the current landscape as an independent filmmaker. Get ready. It's going to be a good one.

SPEAKER_01

Well, welcome to the podcast, Alicia. I'm pretty excited to uh have you on. We've known each other for quite a few years, and I've I've followed your career a little bit over the years. We started both as animators, uh working in stop motion. But uh maybe you could tell us a bit about uh your career, where it started, and how you ended up where you are, which is uh basically running your own creative studio at the moment, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, it's a big story, so I'm gonna try to keep it not too big. Um, but uh initially I went to um college at Seneca College for animation. It was uh the second year that their program existed, and I loved uh my experience there for a lot of reasons, but also it wasn't it wasn't as fully developed at that time as it is now. I think it's quite developed now. So there was a lot of space for students to uh figure out what we were all interested in and kind of pursue that a little bit as well outside of school. Um after I graduated, I had a really hard time finding a job. I worked at the mall for probably a year uh until I saw a really cryptic posting on Craigslist about a stop motion studio hiring. Yeah, it's uh there was no name mentioned, nothing, just sort of training might be provided or whatever. And uh, of course, I was replying to everything, and it turned out to be cup of coffee coffee studios. Um and yeah, we've got to be a good one.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the wild in the wild west of hiring cup of coffee. Oh my god, it was which was great in a way.

SPEAKER_00

Thank goodness for that, because my resume was Le Chateau in the Disney store at that point. So hey, Lo Chateau! I think it's a chateau.

SPEAKER_03

I think I think that wasn't too uncommon back then.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was great. I went in, I did uh a test, which they just gave me a camera setup, showed me the software, and uh just kind of had me animate whatever I wanted to. And you know, luckily I uh I was hired on for one of their next shows, which was Rick and Steve, the happiest gay couple in all the world.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, great show.

SPEAKER_00

Season one or season two, I can't remember. Um, but anyways, was I was I surprised you were my director or animation director, yeah. So that would have been season two.

SPEAKER_01

That was season two then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Season two, yeah, okay. Yeah, season two. Um, so yeah, from there on, I worked on a few more shows at Cup of Coffee. Uh met some of the greatest people there ever, including Kathy and some other lifelong friends, um, who are the most amazingly talented artists. And um at a certain point, cup of coffee kind of uh ran out of shows. It was it was quiet in the city as a whole, I remember. Everyone was kind of really, really quiet. And again, out of desperation, replying to everything everywhere. Also at that time, I did take some extra classes, which I have to say, like if you can with when you're on employment insurance in between jobs, look up continuing education courses at like OCAD or um any of the universities. I took some really fabulous uh courses that gave me some uh incredible skills during that time. But anyway, I ended up finding a random posting for uh stop motion animator needed in New York. And so I was like, that's not too far from Toronto. Um, and just applied for that. And I was somehow the most qualified candidate uh for that job.

SPEAKER_01

Well, sorry, what was the position? Uh it was like an animation position?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it was a stop motion animation supervisor. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01

Wow, nice. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so um I fully thought the whole thing was a scam. Like, but I was kind of like, let's see how far I can take this. It was just so random. My mom didn't want me to go, she thought I was gonna get murdered in New York. Fair enough. Like, I'm a mom now, I get it. But also, like and there are a lot of cannabis hands. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well, you're pretty brave already with the Craigslist, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, you know what I've done at once. You had to go out on a limb. I know, I know. Right. Oh my god, I know. Um but yeah, so uh I so I do have to say this was my first um my first um need for an immigration lawyer to be a Canadian to work in the States. And it was then that I found out, and this is something that I tell everyone who's kind of coming up in animation, how important my diploma from my school was. As I said, the program wasn't that developed. I worked in a mall for a year. I felt a little bit of resentment towards the program at different times and not preparing me to enter the job force. I didn't feel competitive when I left the program. As I said, it is far more developed now. It's I think it's quite fantastic. Um, but this was a different story. This was like 2008 or something. Um, but the only way that I was able to work in the States is because I had a diploma and three years of work experience. If you have a degree, you could just go. Like my friends who had gone to Sheridan who had a degree, they didn't need the work experience. They just um qualified for the visa. But I had to get a bunch of supporting documentation for my um years of work. So if anything, you know, my years in college gave me lifelong relationships and friendships with other working artists who are now really advanced in their field. Not that that's you know what our friendship counts on, but it's been a beautiful thing to be a witness to good friends of mine succeed in an industry that I love. Um, that's a huge benefit that I had. And the other huge benefit of going to school was getting that diploma. Because as I'll tell you in my stories going forward, it was instrumental in me continuing to be a working artist for many, many years. Um, but I did uh at the time get a TN1 visa. And I know the visa situation is I don't even want to talk about it, uh, working in the States, completely different landscape now. Um, but I do think that's an important thing that doesn't really get talked about too much when deciding on education, because now there is so much online schooling, which I think is fantastic and makes schooling so much more accessible. But if you want to be a working artist and that in order to continue doing that, you may need to leave your home country. I think it's really worthwhile to do a little bit of research into what it takes to work in different countries that you might consider working in.

SPEAKER_01

I I had a similar experience with my schooling where I felt like you know, there were some uh overpromises about what where my my diploma, I was a diploma at that time would get me. Um, and there was talk of like you should get a degree so you can work overseas. And some people I know had to do that, like come back and go back for a year. But uh I do at least the way the TN operated uh a a while ago was that if you had industry experience that can compensate for lack of a degree if you have a diploma in your so it doesn't have to be like it doesn't have to be a degree, there's different things that you could qualify for.

SPEAKER_00

Because I had the diploma. I had the diploma, so I had to have those few years of work. Yeah, so I had to have those few years of yeah, exactly. So thank goodness I had it working a cup of coffee, um, and I got all my employment letters and proof of employment and all that. Um, but yeah, I showed up to New York and um I just ended up having, you know, it's hard to say one of the best years of my life because like truly been privileged in a way to have like many good years in many different ways, but a wonderful, beautiful, interesting year of working with incredible people, learning so many interesting things. The project ended up being um a historical reenactment uh with a bit of a cinematic flair of the origins of uh Heineken Beer, the brand. Was a stop motion reenactment of it to be put into a corporate documentary that they were releasing for I think it was their 150th anniversary of being a brand. I can't remember. 100, 150th, I can't remember.

SPEAKER_03

It sounds like so.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my gosh. Oh my god, it was so much fun. It was so much fun. When I showed up, so the people I was working with were um, they were subcontracted. It was a director and a producer, very good friends who'd work together a lot. They were subcontracted by a larger like commercial firm who was working like on it to do the animation, to produce the animation. So we had some spaces in this huge old factory in uh Dumbo, Brooklyn. And one of my jobs as animation supervisors, I got to design the whole studio. It was just a big factory room. And I got to design it so that it would have studios and stages and the right equipment and um, you know, have a little triage area for puppets and make sure we had our blackout blinds and our duotine hanging from everywhere and like the right color on the walls for paint.

SPEAKER_01

Um, that's not that's not normal for that position, right? Like that normally you're not doing it.

SPEAKER_00

But they're never working stop motion. Right. Yeah, yeah. The director, sorry, the director had done a stop motion film before, super indie, super figured it out on his own. So I was the only one who had any level of in-studio experience, um, which was amazing. He was super artistic and also very smart, inventive engineering type mind. Um, so he totally like got on board with everything that I was kind of putting out there and was really excited to kind of learn how it was done in studios. That's great. Yeah, you want some of the things that we're gonna do. And that was you know the case for everyone else. Yeah. Oh my god. He they were so collaborative. The guys I worked with, like, uh I it was such a great project. Um, and everybody who came on to work, they had all done some stop motion in their own independent way, but again, nobody really had studio experience. Everyone was so, I mean, when you're working in stop motion, it's with people who love it because it is so unique and fun and interesting, and it draws a certain kind of collaborative, like engineering, mathematical, artistic mind. There's always like a really common ground and common language I find that I can speak with people who work in stop motion or have interest in stop motion or something. There's just a there's just a certain like kinship in the way that our minds work, um, which has been such a beautiful thing as I've worked in so many different studios in so many different cities. I've felt at home the second I stepped through that door. Um, but anyways, that was a wonderful experience. And um after that ended, I was there for about a year. Um, I went back to Toronto to kind of figure out what to do. My long-term um boyfriend at the time, who's now my husband, had moved to Vancouver because he worked in 3D animation. And uh it was, you know, really popping up over there. So I decided to go join him uh there. And also I could see that I had some work opportunities possibly uh on the West Coast in LA. There's so many TV studios there at Stop Motion. Um, so yeah, I I moved to Vancouver, and the order of events is a little bit hazy, but I got a job in LA on uh at Starburns um on a Moral Oral. If anybody knows that series, it's that's a deep dive that's worth taking. I'm just gonna say that. Um, but there was a special that they were doing for this, it's an old adult swim stop motion show. Um and I had a really great time working on that. And while I was there, some people I was working with introduced me to the people at Stupid Body Studios who do robot chicken. And um I ended up working for them quite a few times. And then I in between my breaks, I'd go back to Vancouver and I was kind of working on my own stop motion short film, like just in the little teeny tiny bits and pieces. I'd been working on it since New York. I ordered my first armature when I was in New York and had been building it in my bedroom on my bedroom floor and sculpting my cats and stuff like that. Um, so I'd always been working away piece by piece on it. Um and then uh I had the opportunity through Kathy to join the crew that had already been working for at least a year, if not two years, on Shadow King, right? That's what it was called, I think. With Henry Selleck. Yeah. And after I accepted that before I had moved, I got a call to come work on Anomalisa with Charlie Kaufman directing at Starburns. And I couldn't believe that I was in a position to turn down Charlie Kaufman, one of my all-time favorite directors, or one of my other all-time favorite directors, Henry Selleck. It was super wild. But, you know, went ahead, relocated to San Francisco. Um, and on my third week there, on my third Monday, they called everybody in to the kitchen, yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry, sorry to make you relive this, Kathy. Yeah, this is a bagel story. This is traumatic. Actually, we didn't have to be trauma.

SPEAKER_01

Bagels was at the at a different studio. We were just our last uh chat was about layoffs, so this is touching nerves.

SPEAKER_00

I'm so sorry. No, yeah, this was a very this is a very important story for me personally, I have to say. But me too. Uh yeah, on my third Monday there, they said we're closing down. And not only that, but while they were having that meeting, they had people running around tearing puppets off sets from animators who were mid-shot because they were worried I think someone was gonna steal some puppets or something. And if you're a saw motion animator, it can almost bring me to tears to think about that. Um, the work that you put into a shot. I mean, I when I'm alone with my puppets, like I'm sorry, but I have such a personal connection with them.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, you don't get that in working in other uh mediums and animation.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. No, you literally are curling their tiny fingers around your own finger to make them emote. Like yeah, I that's a lot of connection. There's there's so much, you're you're moving their eyeballs, you're you're you're you're softening their eyebrows, you're looking at them with the same look on your face that you want to give them. Yeah, you know, and there's there's such a strong connection, and and the work and the heart that you put into it and the planning, the math, everything, um, for somebody to go in and disrupt that, it's feels like a form of violence.

SPEAKER_01

Um Yeah, I get what you're saying. I I I always remember thinking that that was a really stupid, uninformed move because right after that they wanted to finish those shots so that they could start shopping it around. So they had to put those puppets back in. And if if anyone's ever done stop motion before, it's not easy to start up once you've done something like that. It's it's a bit of a house of cards, and once you want when you pull one card out, the whole house falls apart, basically.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, that was that was absurd.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, absurd is the right word. Anyway, I uh at that point was a little bit, you know, obviously we were all caught off guard, but the way that my own journey went is I just felt like I had all this momentum that I was ready to work, like I was ready to be on this project for two years. I was ready to put something out there, like I wanted to work so badly. I just was so, I felt so left hanging. And anyway, I asked around and I ended up getting it just like a six-week contract on uh robot chicken. So I had to run up to the to Canada, switch my visa, go back down to LA, uh, work on robot chicken for six weeks. And while I was doing that, the company that my husband was working at that he'd been working at for a very long time went bankrupt. It was a super stable company. So all this to say, when I came back, I have to say his company actually was able to recover in a pretty amazing way. Um, but it was like a very unsteady feeling time. Um, a very like, okay, I'm in my 20s now, but I'm not always gonna be. And the people I work with aren't all in their 20s, they're quite a bit older, also, and like where am I going with this? Um when I got back to Vancouver, I really reflected on my experiences, and this is this is the foundation for what has guided me for the rest of my life and the rest of my choices. And that is when I got the job on the Henry Salek film, that was with Disney for two and a half years or something. That felt like security. That is the closest thing I've ever had to security as a as an animator. And that was the least secure, riskiest thing. I was the last to know that anything was happening. They moved me down there. They had to have known. You know, people moved down. People's first day, some people's first day was the day that they laid everybody off.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and unfortunately, that's a story I've heard I've heard repeated at other closures that we've been a part of. It's heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm not surprised. But what I realized is I thought that by taking this job, I was doing something safe and secure. I could save some money and like kind of make some plans and all this. And I just realized, you know what? That was the riskiest thing I could have done. And if I'm gonna just be taking risks left, right, and center, I'm gonna do it on myself because at least I'm not gonna be the last one to know if I'm running out of money. And that's when I started turning down jobs. I got another job offer back in New York, I got job offers in LA, and I started turning down jobs, and I took my savings and I just made my first film. And forcing myself to make my first film, which, like, you know, it's hard. It's really hard to turn down jobs and just work on something that you don't have the time, money, or resources to actually make as good as you can picture because it is, I was off of my savings and it was my first film and everything. But I had to kind of just overcome those feelings and push through because I, for me, I, you know, filmmaking is passfail. Like you don't get an A for effort if you're an independent filmmaker, you get a pass if you finished the film. Yeah. Let it be bad, let it be anything, but you gotta finish it. And that's just what I told myself. And I pushed through and I made my film. And in doing that and kind of putting my back up against the wall in so many ways that I never had done before, um, it also gave me this huge opportunity to connect with the filmmaking community in Vancouver where I was living. Um, and a ton of people were really interested in what I was doing. A ton of people wanted to help. A ton of people helped me when I was done shooting find some funding that I could actually be eligible for to help with post-production. There was so much enthusiasm. There was so much community. And um, I had never been a part of filmmaking in a way that incorporated community like that. Obviously, in the studio, it's really different. It put me with people who also were doing the same thing, not stop motion, but a lot of live action. And stop motion is so runs so perpendicular to live action in the way that um you organize its production in the equipment, in the rentals, in the insurance, all these things. And so the fact that Vancouver has a really strong, independent live action community there was um indispensable.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, how did you get how did you get in touch with that community?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, so so funny. Well, Craigslist, when I was in Vancouver, I needed a job at one point. I was like, God, there's no stop motion here. Um at the time, like things are very different. Yeah, everything I'm speaking about is like 10, 15 years ago. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, at the time, there was like no stop motion going on. So I was trolling that Craigslist. Like, come on Craigslist, like, provide for me. Um, and again, I saw. Like kind of weird cryptic uh like ad for a stop motion animator that like seemed yeah, a little bit thin in its description.

SPEAKER_01

Seems like all of your jobs are based on thin loose job descriptions posted on Craigslist.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Actually, because one of them was a very thin description uh on Facebook. I think that's how I got the moral oral one. You're much like a pressure on Facebook. I would say I just like to see how far it can take things. I like to see how far it can go.

SPEAKER_03

You're a very brave person.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I you know what? Anyone will tell you? Like, I do not watch horror films or anything. This is like my version of thrill seeking. I am like a safe, calm, quiet person, but like this is how I thrill seek. That's amazing. I think jobs online.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, go right to the sus platforms.

SPEAKER_00

Seriously, yeah. Um, so yeah, this job ended up being super legit. Um, it was these these women in Vancouver, these incredible women had written this series of uh children's books called Wendy and Friends. And they had uh self, I don't know if they self-published it or not, but they they had like quote unquote illustrated it by making little figurines and photographing him. That was the illustration. So they uh producer was working with them and they had gotten some funding to make an app, Storytime with Wendy and Friends, something like that. So an interactive app, like an interactive version of the storybook. And of course, uh stop motion felt like the natural way to go because they were these photographed like dolls, essentially, and like this really cool handmade aesthetic. Like, we'll never forget, like, they made a soccer ball in the book out of a crumpled piece of white paper with like pieces of like black tape stuck on it. It was very beautiful, very refined in its design. Like these women were incredible, they're such amazing artists. So, okay, I'm hired for that. And then what happens? I'm the only one there with any studio experience in stop motion. Once again, it was exactly like New York. Um, so I am literally like tasked with designing the entire production. I made all production spreadsheets, I broke down every single shot. How many frames? What do we need? You know, what puppets are in it? I designed all the puppets, I designed the armatures, I arranged everything, I got the right cameras, like I consulted on the lighting, equipment. I set up the studio space again.

SPEAKER_01

You're like all of this is really uh in my mind forming a picture of how you would feel the confidence to operate your own project, your own studio. Like this is like the building blocks for building that confidence, being like, I've done it, I can do it again, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, 100%. And this is so this is before I made my first film, by the way. Um, so I did all this, and one of the production assistants on the show, um, his name's Jeff, he was starting a production company with his sister and some other partners, I think, in Vancouver. And he kind of like took me to the side one day and he was like, Hey, like, like, what do you, you know, what are your interests? What do you do in all this? We got to talking, and I told him that I was wanting to make my first film. And he was like, Hey, if there's any way that I can help, like, I'm starting this production company. He's like, I can even help you out just with your insurance because that's super expensive to get. He's like, You guys, you can use my insurance if you want, like, I'll like help you out in any way. Like, I love your idea, let me know. And I was like, Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

That's that's an incredible opportunity.

SPEAKER_00

It's incredible, but it is not few and far between in the community that I was in. That is the kind of community that I was in. And so through him, and okay, so he, so Jeff, his name's Jeff Manton, and his company is um boldly in Vancouver, and they do incredible work, mostly live action, but they have done a bit more animation um that I've been a part of here and there, but not anymore because I now live in uh Montreal. But um, so he was a producer on my first film, and he connected me with uh somebody who could be the DP on my film, uh, who I would have never met. And he was like very up and coming at the time, um, but he did such an incredible job. And he he kept telling me also, him and his other friend, his other friend, um John Thomas, who's a DP on Wendy, kept saying, You remind you remind me so much of our friend Sophie. So much, like you guys are the same person. And I was like, and Sophie was a filmmaker, and so I was like, Okay, cool. I don't know. I I've been told I remind people of people all the time. I'm kind of like, I'm like, produce something or like don't, or like, I don't know what to say. Cool, I'm happy. Like, I remind you of somewhere. But they were like, you know, you guys have to be. I'm like, okay. Um, and before that, they showed me one of her films, Pennies for Tea. I was so enchanted by it. If anybody watches Pennies for Tea, directed by Sophie Jarvis, and she co-directed with her partner Kane Stewart. I I dare you not to be enchanted by this short film.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we gotta try it.

SPEAKER_00

It's so good. It's so good. Anyway, Sophie came over to my apartment one time when Jeff was there because we were talking about my film that I was hoping to make. And um, you know, I have to hand it to them. Yes, Sophie and I cut to like more than 10 years later, maybe we're best friends. We've made so many films together.

SPEAKER_01

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00

She's been my biggest supporter. I hope she will count me as one of her biggest supporters. She's an inspiration to all, and she is one of the biggest um examples on how to participate and create community that I've ever seen. I've learned so much from her. Like we would call, I would, I would say, like, Sophie, like, you're my mentor. She'll be like, no, you're my mentor. And like we just learned so much off each other. Anyways, fast forward to say meeting Jeff and then meeting Sophie. And then so Sophie, then she helped me a bit on uh old man on my first film. So she by trade uh was an art director, um, but also a director and a writer. And now she's moved into just really um directing and writing, and like she's she's made the most incredible films, like her feature film, her first feature, Till Branch has been premiered at TIFF a few years ago. And she's so many other things in the works right now, it's incredible. Um, she's a live-action filmmaker, she's always loved stop motion. But anyway, I'll I'll get more into that later. But suffice it to say, I through Sophie, I then met one of her best friends, Sarah Blake. Sarah Blake is now one of my best friends, and she has also produced like all of my films, and she's my partner in my in our interactive company, um, click pluck clock that we're doing, we're currently creating um video games in.

SPEAKER_01

Could you talk a bit about that? Like, uh are you guys doing traditional video games or is it is it something different that you guys are creating?

SPEAKER_00

I say I mean, I guess we could fall under the term traditional. The genre that we're creating in is is the cozy gaming genre.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I love that. Uh that's my favorite genre of games.

SPEAKER_00

Me too. Me too. And in fact, I just didn't think I liked games until I was acquainted with um the cozy genre of gaming. And in doing so much research, you know, um, historically, games have been made mostly by men.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um and except in the early days, right?

SPEAKER_01

In the early days of gaming, like Sierra and stuff like that, it was all women.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And we've just, you know, as is the history of a lot of fields that end up being run by men. Sometimes they start with women.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, sometimes. But it's it's interesting because in doing the, you know, for myself, I had to kind of look at my own identity, never really putting like gaming under that identity. But um, I, you know, I asked myself, like, why don't I like games? Because I I didn't. Uh I didn't, it's not my pastime, not my thing. And um, they're stressful. Like the the short answer is for me, games feel stressful.

SPEAKER_02

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and that's just my experience with them. And in kind of doing more research, you know, seeing that a lot of the market, let's say, has been driven by men um for the past like how 25, 30 years. I don't know, how old is gaming? Um, it's been games have been designed. Okay. It's been quite a long time. Many, many years. Yeah. But games have been designed to kind of evoke this fight or flight feeling. And this is, you know, this is like a more male, this is a male stress reaction. It's a more male stress reaction. In my research, I found like, oh, the female stress reaction is tend and befriend, a completely different um way to cope with stress than men. So for, and I don't want to generalize, like every single person, regardless of their gender, has their own experience with this stuff. There is a lot of generalization in some of this research. Um, so I'm just gonna kind of speak to that because it helped me understand and articulate what was missing for me from gaming and how I could create something that I actually enjoyed. So that's my that's my caveat there. I'm not trying to um paint a gender like any specific way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

For more uh, yeah, for more male audiences, like there's more like I guess um it's more common to feel like satisfaction and excitement in this like fight or flight coping reaction to stress. And you see that in you know, a lot of like battle games, like Call of Duty, Halo, I don't know, games, um, where you, you know, you know, stress and react and fight, or you run away and you hide. I I absolutely hate that stuff. Right um for women, historically, these tend and befriend. And what that means is in times of stress, women will often look to who needs to be cared for, care for them, but also look in ways to make connections with others, community befriend, tend and befriend. This is this is more a female coping mechanism, natural female coping mechanism for stress. And it in fact, tend and befriend is a more female way to a route for survival, a route for survival for men often has been fight or flight. Um, and so in kind of like doing this research, and ultimately, like this is not new research that I did. This is where cozy gaming comes from. This is the roots of cozy gaming. This is why I like cozy gaming, because it appeals to those who have that tendon befriend like satisfaction. Um, it also deals in um uh themes of abundance often, or um just like uh um uh uh intrinsic motivation is another huge marker of cozy gaming, right? For other games where there's external motivation, oh sorry, shoot these guys, or go get the thing, collect something, go journey. I'm like, I honestly get overwhelmed. Like, this is like work. Like, I don't I don't want tasks like this that depend on me doing them to like now I can't do what I want because I do this other thing. So in cozy gaming, it's often intrinsic motivation, right? It's like it's like what can you, what environment can you create that provokes curiosity within the player? Oh, what's in that drawer? You know, I want to see what's in that drawer, not you must find the the drawer and unlock it and get the book out and find the page.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, to me that it's it's like puzzle building that's uh that is more through exploration than through step-by-step processing. Exactly. Yeah, and that's exactly it. Yeah, uh, I can see there are a lot of games that uh try to put that into the fight or flight games. Like my partner plays a lot of games and there's a lot of like games now that will they have the shoot-em up aspect, but then they have this like mechanic where there you have to construct something or build a fort. And like I can see where it gets muddy for like I I can I mean it's one perspective, but my partner he always he's like, I don't want to play this part, I just I want to play the shoot 'em up part, you know. Yeah. So it's interesting to have a conversation about like where those two lines operate.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's great because I I'm probably one of the few exceptions where I I played video games as a kid, but I got tired of them really fast. I think for that reason, because it was just the same thing over and over and like as you say, run, get away from something, get the gun, shoot this or destroy this, or steal this, or do that. And um, when I got old enough, I my brain just switched. I think I just you know, to me, cozy gaming is more my line of thinking, I think.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think when you were talking about the gender divide, I I could see what you're talking about research-wise, but I I definitely know plenty of men who prefer that cozy gaming. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Me too, me too.

SPEAKER_01

And women who like shoot-em-ups, so yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, true. No, absolutely. Again, like it was really something that I found like, oh, there's language to articulate my experience.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Was really helpful. Um, and also helpful to just relate to people who like the other way of playing. Because I was always like, how does anybody how is this just not stressful? Like, I couldn't put myself in their shoes because I simply didn't operate. There's such a vital systemic difference in the way that our minds and bodies process these same experiences.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's always been so helpful to just find that vocabulary for me. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So could you tell us a bit about like because your your background obviously is animation, uh, you've clearly you've got a strong understanding of all the uh all that goes into the process of that. But um the process of building a game is different in a lot of ways. I'm curious how you approach that. Like I know you have a partner and you guys are building the business together, but I'm assuming you had to set up your own processes for this project. Uh could you tell us a bit about how that's different?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I'm gonna backpedal just a little bit and say after doing my first film, I've done like quite a few films after that. Some of them were grant funded, and some of them I work with the National Film Board. And um, they uh they produced those films. But in that ex in that experience, when I switched over to doing my own film, Old Man, I really felt like I knew almost everything, uh, which is a dangerous place to be. But I only knew as much as I knew I could know. Yep. Right. And what I didn't know is how to make a budget for a film, for a project, and all the things you had to consider and things like that.

SPEAKER_01

I think as artists, that's where we struggle probably the most. Because it's not the thing we're interested in, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's pretty pretty normal, pretty typical. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. But for that, again, I reached out to one of my producers on Wendy. I took him out for lunch. I just said, like, what is in a budget? This man that had been asking me what to do for like a year or two, and suddenly I was like, Oh, I I don't know everything. Like, I just I'm just, I guess what I'm trying to say is like I really learned the value of finding what I didn't know and then asking. Because this plays into a lot of me switching over to gaming, uh, and me making my own films and then having to like do the budget and be responsible for the for the accounting as well for you know the grants and everything like that, and planning well with that and everything. Like, that was a huge learning curve. It was something that I actually love doing. Um, because like any stop motion animator, like I kind of like organizing things and numbers and like um I love spreadsheets uh so much.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know if that's animator specific.

SPEAKER_00

I certainly stop motion or no? Am I just generalizing?

SPEAKER_01

I think you're generalizing because I for sure no know what you're saying, like there are some animators who are like very meticulous. Yeah, but uh for a long time that wasn't me. Like I've I've come to that way of thinking, but uh I certainly know a lot of people who are like disorganized as hell, but somehow the the animation gets done. So yeah, you know, yes, that's true.

SPEAKER_03

That's true. We all know people like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I have to say, even though I love these things, it was very hard. It was extremely hard. It was extremely hard and also very um ego busting, which is so important. I really realized like I never want to be the person who knows the most in a room. Like, that's not the room I want to be in. When I found those holes in my knowledge, when I like pushed through my own ego and feeling like I just can't do this, it took years, but I mastered budgeting for a short film, which can be scaled to other things, but um nothing makes you feel more powerful and encouraged that you can do that again. You can find something else you don't know and you can know it. And I think that that is kind of the key to success, especially independent success.

SPEAKER_01

Getting comfortable with being uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, not just that, but getting excited by being uncomfortable. Now I've learned when I can feel the edges of my knowledge wearing away on something. Um, I the thing is working in studios, it feels so competitive. You don't necessarily want to be the one that's like, I don't know how to do this, or you know, like you just don't want to be that person who just doesn't seem to know what the heck's going on.

SPEAKER_01

But I think there's ways, even in the studio system, to be curious and to be enthusiastic about what you don't know and ask the people who want to share that knowledge. Uh I think that feeling of like I'm nervous to show that I don't know something, almost 100% of the time, maybe 99% of the time, people are not thinking that when you ask a question, right?

SPEAKER_00

No, for sure. Yeah, and same for at any point in your life. Like, but I'm just saying that I relate to anyone who has those feelings that they don't feel like they want to be that person or they feel like they may look be looked down on, even though that's not the case. Um, I when I was hired at cup of coffee, I'm pretty sure I was the youngest person there. Because I remember a lot of people making comments about that.

SPEAKER_01

That also happened to me at Cup of Coffee. I think they like to hire people who are very inexperienced.

SPEAKER_00

So there was just this feeling of I am the youngest person here, and a lot of people keep telling me that. Um, and I definitely asked questions because like I truly just could not even have done my job otherwise. But there were times when I felt like, okay, I've asked a lot of questions today. Like I and everyone keeps telling me I'm super young. Like I'm just gonna try to figure this out and stay quiet. And Lynn, I would like not have a good shot, you know, I wouldn't turn out a great shot or whatever. The point is, is like I just uh it's okay if if one is not born with the confidence to not know things, it can be developed.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I don't know what your perspective on this is, but having managed teams now, the people I worry the least about are the people who come to me with questions all the time. Right? Absolutely, and the people who don't talk and disappear are the help you yeah, yeah. Most of the people you you're worried are not getting the info they need. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

100%. And it all comes down to communication too, right? When you stop asking questions, you're just not communicating. Yeah. And that's just that's that's a very real, that's where I was at in the earlier years, you know.

SPEAKER_01

So speaking of like communicating and being on teams, you know, the independent world can be a bit more solitary, right? Like, I don't know how big your team is. Like, are you working by yourself right now? Do you have people who are working with you?

SPEAKER_00

Uh it fluctuates a lot. So, for example, right now I kind of have two active projects with click pluck plac. Um, one of them is called Old People Island, and um one of them is called Homemaker. Those are both cozy games. Old People Island just uh well no, I'll start with Homemaker. Homemaker just finished a CMF funded development period, and that was great. We hired on some artists, um, hired on some programmers, and it was a small team because it was just development, but we got some really good, we got a really good sort of Video teaser of it for the game, and I was able to write a lot for the concept of the game, and that was amazing. And we're going to be able to use those materials to apply for prototype funding next year. How long did that run for? Um, the development period was maybe five months. Okay. And then with Old People Island, that's a bit of a story. So we got development funding for that in like a long time ago, years ago. And we did the development period, and it was incredible. I worked with the most amazing artists. Um, and I want to say this about being an independent artist as well. Whether you have funding or not, if you have an idea that is strong, you can approach artists that you would never have the chance to work with otherwise if you were working in a studio system. There are people that I just admired that I was just like, God, I hope one day our paths cross because I just admire this person's work. And then when I found myself in need of an artist, I was like, oh my God, he'd be perfect for this. I wonder if he would do this. You know, I was able to reach out to different artists and um have them work on it. And that has been one of the biggest paybacks, I'd say, of being independent is getting to choose who you work with and going after, yeah, people that you just wouldn't have the chance to otherwise. We actually partnered with the NFB Interactive Department for Old People Island, and we received, we applied and received uh prototype funding from the CMF as well, as well as some additional prototype funding from uh Creative BC because our business is um split between BC and Quebec because my partner lives in um Vancouver. We did a prototype for Old People Island, and so then I was able to hire on um an independent studio here in Montreal called Artifact Five, who does like really incredible work to do the programming uh for it, and we had more artists working, so there was a team of I don't know, seven or eight people, let's say maybe. And how involved between artists and programmers.

SPEAKER_01

Like how involved in like the programming, in the like uh technical side of things are you, or is it is this something that you're you're managing your your creative directing?

SPEAKER_00

I'm creative directing. I'm designing the systems for the game, designing like how the like the mechanics, fundamentally how yeah, the game mechanics, how the game works, what the different systems are, and things like that. And then they are executing it, but also giving me feedback because they're they're hands-on on that part, right? So they're definitely seeing things that I'm not seeing, and it becomes a really nice collaboration. Um, so they would like output a different version like every week, and I would play it, give notes, they'd give me notes. Yeah, it's been a really beautiful partnership with them. Uh, so after we completed that prototype, um, I had my son and went on a parental leave. And during the parental leave period, the NFB Interactive uh ceased operations. Oh no. Uh yeah, which was really, really heartbreaking, not so much for myself, but for all the artists in the future who would not benefit from their partnership because they had been there with me for the prototype, and they were a huge, huge support for a project that wouldn't get that kind of support from any other private um funding body or producing partnership or anything. And um anyway, I know the NFB has had a lot of like justified criticism here and there over the years, but I have to say I've had really positive experiences working with them. And I and I, you know, will always work with them again in the future. Absolutely love working with them.

SPEAKER_01

But they're just there just aren't that many independent uh streams for for artists, right? Like either.

SPEAKER_00

No, and especially not, you know, we have the CMF, which is fantastic, gives us funds. Creative BC gives us funds, grants, funds, amazing. NFB gives you producers.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Like they they give you festival access, they give you a different, like, they have such a different value added to a project than simply like money. Like, fantastic for money. We need that for the project, but like anytime I've wanted to work with the NFB, it's like I can get funding. Like I've been really successful with grants and everything like that. Like, I can get funding, but I cherish their support so much.

SPEAKER_01

Um can I uh can so can I ask why do you think you've been successful with funding? Because I think funding for myself is a real mystery still. Like I've done some investigation, I I've seen what they require, like what the requirements are.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But uh there seems like a lot of gatekeeping based on what if you've had success in the past with funding. So it's like once you've had some funding, all this other funding's available. But how do you get the funding to begin with?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it can seem like that. I actually think I and I'm not sure because I haven't looked in a while, but I actually think the Canada Council of the Arts has changed their requirements so that you don't need to have made a film yet, or or or they'll count student films or something. Before they didn't count student films as a film, but regardless, yeah, they uh I didn't get funding for my first film, right? I used my savings for it. Me too, by the way.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00

I remember that. So the thing is, is I knew when I was using my savings, I wasn't just chasing an artistic whim. It was like a very calculated strategic investment so that I could be eligible for funding in the future. As I said, filmmaking is past fail. Let me make this film, let me pass, let me get it into any festivals. Yep. Any festivals. All that to be said, for in BC with animation, this is a loophole I found. First of all, if you're interested in finding a grant in um getting a grant, call the grant advisors. Don't start reading it. Read, read, read everything, but then call the grant advisors and talk to them. Because I did that, and what they told me I wouldn't have found anywhere else, which is that if you're doing stop motion, you know, you haven't done a film before. If you make an animatic, you can then apply for post-production funding.

SPEAKER_01

Ah, wait, so the animation is considered post-production?

SPEAKER_00

Because in live action, in live action, which is what all this is grouped under, if you were to do animation for a live action film for a special effect or something, that would be post. I guess so. Yeah. Wow. So that's how they grouped it, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I was like, great, this is my chance. Okay. I made this huge grant document. I spelled everything out that I could. Um, I was felt really good about what I submitted. And um, I got uh rejected from it. So I called the grant advisor because they say you can do that to discuss it, right? I called the grant advisor, said, like, okay, what were the notes? Like, what happened here? And again, this was an ego-destroying move to call and ask why did I get rejected and actually listen to the notes. And I didn't come up with, I wasn't there with a fighting attitude. Like I, you know, but that was like, yes, let me kill my ego again. Give me another opportunity. This is the best thing for me, is what I realized. Anyway, what he said, and if anyone has seen my first films called Old Man, the main character has a super long neck. He said that the one of the main notes is they didn't know how I was gonna be able to animate the neck. Okay. Wow, okay. Take a beat. Yeah, crickets right now. Yeah. Crickets. Okay, so I'm like, oh my god, I put on my resume. I worked on robot chicken, I worked on a Disney film for a little bit. Like, I but for whatever, I had like 10 years of animation experience at that point. I was like, double take, like, come again. And instead of saying, this is the big thing, instead of saying that's stupid, that's ridiculous, that's insane. I somehow had the wisdom to say, okay, what actually can I learn from this? It is that the people that I am writing to to convince them, and this is not a knock on them, but they know less than I could ever imagine they know. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so it's thinking of them as like the general public almost, like if you were gonna explain who stop motion works, real even less they've never seen. And this is not Phil.

SPEAKER_00

They've never they don't even you say stop motion, and they go, like the Little Mermaid, like I don't know. It's less. And I'm not saying that as a knock. Like these people are super smart and intelligent, but they are professionals in different things. And I am a professional in this, yeah, and it's that's where I really learned with that application what my job was as a grant applier. Like, I really learned, okay, I not only need to come, I not only need to like have an idea I believe in, but through this paper that I'm writing to you, I need you to believe in it. And I need you to believe and know and trust that I can do this. And this is, I'm gonna tell you exactly why you can trust I can do it. I'm gonna tell you exactly how. I'm gonna leave no single stone or pebble unturned. And I'm gonna do it in the most convincing and strong and beautiful storytelling language that I can because I care so deeply about this. I'm not putting on a show, I'm not making anything up, I'm not trying to embellish. I literally am just connecting with the deepest part of myself that wants you to understand how much I care and how much confidence I have in myself that I can do this. Yeah. Can I I know why I have confidence? I want you to know why I have confidence in myself.

SPEAKER_01

So, can I ask how you would approach the solution to that problem, like that specific note of the neck? Because you don't want to apply it again. Yeah, you don't want to be like, uh, like, duh, this is how I do it, right? No. You want to sell it in a way that's gonna be exciting.

SPEAKER_00

Well, what's the magic of it, right? How can I do it? So, what did I do? Because I did apply again and I did get the funding. And what I did is I dedicated a part of that grant application to the different types of armatures that exist, their pros and cons, why I was choosing the one I was choosing, why it made sense in this in the scale and scope of production that I had funding for, how I would animate it, and how I have animated that particular armature before in these different instances. And and I did had pictures and diagrams.

SPEAKER_01

And you know, this strikes me as a really useful thing as the artist as well. Like if you've gone to the trouble of planning, really researching what it's gonna be, they have confidence that you have a plan, you know, and you have that plan, right? Like I think I think as an artist with my own film, when I look back on uh like self-funded, when I look back on like what could I have really done better? What what was the the thing that I was weakest in? Uh, and I always look back and say the planning part was something I hadn't done a lot of, I'd done a lot of the just the creating, just get in there, just do it. And you know, there were times when I wish I'd planned for something ahead of time, but I rushed through that period because I was like, ah, it's over. But this grant application process to me strikes me as a useful tool for artists as well.

SPEAKER_00

It is, and that's what I came to recognize moving forward for my other films. I was like, yes, let me write this grant application because it's gonna show it's gonna show me the holes in my story and in my production that I don't know yet. Because until I can make this document so solid in every single way, so impenetrable, then I know I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01

So did you show it to people beforehand? Were you like trying to get feedback? Like because you know, that whole you don't know what you don't know, you also don't know what they don't know. So I know I know you you're saying like cover every avenue, but but sometimes you have blind spots, right? I'm curious if you had a a process where you showed it to anybody.

SPEAKER_00

So I didn't show the application, but I did show the budget um to my producer Jeff Manton, I think. And again, like he he only knew as much as live action. He still had really valuable input, but that was also the thing with my my grant proposal was like everyone was like, wow, this is really cool. Because like also nobody knew about stop motion, anyways. And I didn't the in my circle at that point, I didn't know too many people who had had success with grants. I this was my first film, so I still hadn't made really deep connections with the community. After that, for my other applications, um, some of them I did, one of them I did with my good friend Sophie. We did it together for one of our films, and um, we got funding for that. And then going forward, I would send her and I would send Sarah probably my my grant stuff. But those were people who had been successful with getting grants as well before. And um, and you know what was really helpful also is the one year I didn't apply for grants, I was asked to be on the jury.

unknown

Oh.

SPEAKER_00

So it was amazing to be on the other side of it and debate with other jury members and really know that my intuition was correct in the way that I was approaching things. And being on the other side reading hundreds, a hundred, I don't know, a lot, a lot of grants. I read a lot and it was very clear. I when you're reading so many, very clear the ones who have a plan.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Very clear the ones who can express the plan, right? It's one thing to have it. You need that ability to express it. And that's what grant writing is very useful for. Because as you progress in your career, grant funding is not sustainable. The only way I could afford to make my films is because I personally worked for free. And what did I do? I directed, I built, I art directed, I animated.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's a lot of money. That is not sustainable to work for free in that way and just cover my costs and pay other people, hire other people to work on it, right? So as you're progressing as an independent artist, this is your tool to sell your project. You're gonna need to sell it to bigger people. You're gonna need to sell it to different funders who are not granting you, but investing in you. This is the stakes are completely different, but like that's how I have been able to keep building my career, like little bit by little bit, a little bit forward, a little bit forward. It's because I built the skill from nothing because I didn't have it before. I built the skill from nothing to be able to pitch and sell my projects and myself. And again, I'm not putting on an act. I believe in myself so much, and I believe in my projects so much. None of them are guaranteed success. They're all extremely hard to work on. So I better love what I'm doing, and I do. And that's that's the guiding light I think each creator needs to really be in touch with for themselves as well.

SPEAKER_01

In terms of uh, you know, obviously you've you've you started from very little understanding of how grants uh were processed, and now you've had a chance to be on the other side, like look back, look at other people's grants. Is there any advice uh you can offer to people like in the industry right now or things to avoid? Because I it's probably changed quite a lot since we started. Yeah. Um is there anything that stands out in your mind as like really important things to always keep an eye on for grant writing, especially now?

SPEAKER_00

I honestly the same fundamentals. Number one, don't be afraid to write a grant. Do your research, read the documentation, call the grant officer. They can be hard to get a hold of. Keep calling, get them to call you back. If there's a deadline, maybe make it for next year's deadline so you have enough time to have these conversations. Don't rush it because I think there's a limit on how many times you can submit with one project. Unless it's you feel like you can close your eyes at night and be like, damn, I did a good job. Do not submit it. Get to that point.

SPEAKER_01

Do you uh do you think they look at multiple submits uh and get tired of like there's there's a that's gone.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I mean it's just really clear. Um usually when a project is submitted twice, something happens. The second time, not much has changed from the first application, or a lot has changed and they will get funding. So um, if you do it a third time, like it's too much. You know what I mean? You got your chance. Like, we all know how long it takes to make these things, right? So get it right. And you know what? If you don't get the funding and you really believe in your idea, follow your intuition, do what you need to do, make it. But if it's something you're feeling like, I don't want to keep working on this, don't. What do you want to keep working on?

SPEAKER_01

But maybe that's maybe upon second submission or for at the end of the first, maybe that's an opportunity to say, is this thing I'm I'm still passionate about? If it's not for second submission, let's change it, let's make it something I want to submit, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, for sure. Like I I think the thing is to never be reactive to a grant decision because where they are coming from is part administrative, part balancing geographical distribution of funds, like part creative, part passion. Um it's not a direct feedback to your idea, you know?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's important to have trusted creative friends that you can talk to about your ideas, see what they think, but also just have the chance to say it out loud. One of the most important ways of for me for developing an idea is when I have it to start talking about it. Because the first 10 times I talk about it, I'm like stumbling over my words. I'm like, and then this happens, and oh wait, let me back up and then this or that or whatever. By like the 10th time, I have like a log line and I know exactly what the most important thing about this project is. Um so I always try to literally standing in line, waiting for a reservation at a restaurant. I remember striking up a conversation and telling these people about like my film Daddy Freddy that I was making. And um at a party, what do you do? Well, don't shy away from it, you know. Oh, I work in a studio, but I'm also developing my own film. Oh, that's interesting. What's it about? Tell them no one's gonna steal your idea. It's all good. Tell them. Get the words out of your mouth, practice it, practice it in front of somebody. And if it doesn't land, you probably just have to keep practicing it because it's a little confusing, right? It's you've got to develop every single part of this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's part of the pitching process that we all go through as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Especially when you're involved in those fast pitches, those meetings that are only a few minutes long. You narrow your idea down to that long line, the core, you know, the the goal that's underneath that really is what the idea is.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and you want to really understand it that it you don't even have to think about the words as they're coming out of your mouth. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but that's the thing is like don't wait for a pitch meeting or something. Tell people at a party, tell people in line at a bus, tell your cashier at the grocery store. Like, we're all human beings, these things are interesting to talk about. You're not being annoying, or if you are, whatever, it's two minutes. Yeah, you know, they'll let you know. Tell your sister. Yeah, like tell your parents, like just tell people. You gotta get it out. Um, that's the only way to move something forward. Just get it out.

SPEAKER_01

So before we uh start wrapping up here, uh, I was maybe you could mention just a couple of films that you've completed that are out there so people can check them out.

SPEAKER_00

For sure. Uh yeah, so my first film was uh old man. That's on my Vimeo. And then I think my film Daddy Freddy as well, which is about a man who has to live his life backwards through the eyes of every bug he's ever killed. It's one of my favorite projects that I've made.

SPEAKER_01

Um see, that's a great pitch line right there.

SPEAKER_00

And I was just gonna say that's the one that I talked to about people in a waiting line at a restaurant. I can't tell you how many people I tried to tell that, because that film is about. About moral relativism, it's like about ethics, like it's about so many large, big themes. I was like, how do I say this in one line? And I just told everybody until I was like, oh, that's what it is. It took months. Anyway, Daddy Freddy's on Vimeo. And then I have um some films I co-directed with my good friend Sophie Jarvis on the NFB website. One of them was made uh during the pandemic. It was like a super fun experimental documentary called Come to Your Senses. I love that film. It's a trip. Uh and then the other one that I co-directed with my good friend Sophie Jarvis again. It's called Zeb Spider. Uh, it's on the NFB and it's about a uh a superstitious homebody who has an unexpected visitor move into her home. Uh and I don't think I'm forgetting any.

SPEAKER_01

Do you have uh do you have any idea when you might be releasing any of the games you're working on?

SPEAKER_00

Um, very broadly. It's gonna be a few years still. We're doing a prototype version two right now for Old People Island. And then as I said, next year we're gonna be applying for prototype funding for uh Homemaker. So after prototype completes, then we would be applying for production funding and possibly trying to find some partners as well uh for the game, some producing partners. So it's a long haul, but I feel like working in stop motion right from the beginning, it has always set the pace for me that like these things take time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And uh in fact, you know, I'm an artist and I love making. I don't, I'm not I I love completing because that's like a beautiful part of the process, but I'm not I'm never trying to race towards the finish line, I guess. Uh I love a multi-year project. I love it. Yeah, you know, you just get to develop, develop it and live in it and be it and watch it grow. And this is a multi-year project for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I can relate to that. I I also am somebody I feel that I feel accomplishment when something's completed, but I also feel like, what do we do now? Like I was I was in it, I was liking what I was doing for the most part.

SPEAKER_00

It's so disorienting to finish sometimes.

SPEAKER_01

It can be, yeah, especially if you don't have anything planned because you've been so busy. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay, so we have uh, I mean, we've kind of covered some of this stuff. We have one question we like to wrap up with, which is like, can you think of a really challenging time in your life that you're really proud of or something that really had a big impact on you? I feel like we might have covered some of this already, but uh maybe you could just think of something. It doesn't have to be work-related, it can it can be personal.

SPEAKER_00

Um actually, if it can be personal, I'm gonna say a personal thing. Um, so yeah, I had my first child like two years ago, and I took a parental leave with him, and then he started daycare. So I returned to work, and I have to say, I loved staying at home with him. I never realized how creative children are. I never realized how I would feel like such an artist being a mom, how much I would bring that out even more. And when he went back to daycare, to be honest, it made my real work, my my other work, feel small and not creative and compared to the days that I was spending with him. And uh, it was a very hard transition for me. And uh kind of what I realized through a lot of journaling and self-reflection and things like that is my life had changed. I experienced something, a new level of what I felt was like artistic creativity, interaction, engagement, I don't know what, just an awakening that I didn't have before. And I realized to make my work feel as exciting as it used to feel to me, I had to make it bigger. I had to make it bigger to scale up with the experiences that I had had that were had set such a higher baseline for my own creative experiences. And when I say bigger, I don't mean in scale or scope. I actually mean I had to make them more personal. I had to go deeper with them to make them feel as connected and creative as I did with spending time with my son. And I never realized that was like one of the hardest times. It's very hard to return to work and not feel excited by something you've worked your whole life for. Um really disorienting. And I I didn't, I never realized before having a child what uh the ways in which it would demand that I become like a more authentic version of myself as an artist, which I thought I was already doing. Um, but like he kind of proved me wrong in a bit or just made me grow in a different way. Um it was really hard, but I worked, I worked really, really, really, really, really, really hard to dig deeper with my work and make it make it bigger to me. And I did. And I'm so proud of it. It's so much better than it was before. That's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_01

I it is I thank you for sharing that with us. Like, I think as people working an artistic job as a career, it's so especially in the commercial sense, it's so easy to separate uh the joy of creating from the day-to-day work. Um I certainly miss that in my in my work. So it's very inspiring to hear from somebody who's like pushing so hard in that direction.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I think it's amazing that that external inspiration, right? Gets you to see things differently, gets you to experiment and explore in a different way. I think that's really incredible.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think like he truly just uh accessed a broader spectrum of my own experience. And when my work felt this big, all of a sudden now it felt this big because I had grown this big. Like so, yeah. But it's great, and it's something I'm definitely the most proud of, maybe in my whole life. That's amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, uh, thank you again for joining us on this podcast. It's been a really, really great conversation. Uh, I can't wait to have you back on so we can go deep on other things.

SPEAKER_00

We'll never stop talking. Not a problem for us. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_03

The ATC podcast is created and hosted by Kathy McDonald and John Wade.