Animation Career Community

ACC - Podcast - S001 - E009 - Navigating Layoffs with J&K

• Katherine • Season 1 • Episode 9

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In this episode of the Animation Career Community Podcast, John and Kathy discuss how they have navigated the many type of layoffs that artist can encounter in their careers.  They discuss the lows and surprisingly some of the highs of working in a contract based career.  It's time to get to the nitty gritty of what moving jobs and projects regularly can be like.

SPEAKER_05

Welcome to the Animation Career Community Podcast, where we answer your questions on how to grow, maintain, and transform your animation career at every stage. I'm your co-host, John.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm your co-host, Kathy.

SPEAKER_05

Today we'll be talking about studio closures and what it's like to be part of a layoff, navigating different scenarios and our own personal experiences. Get ready. It's going to be a good one.

SPEAKER_00

Well, uh, welcome, John, to this uh episode that's near and dear to both our hearts and everyone else's. Um, I think what we want to talk about is layoffs and what layoffs mean in animation. It's a big part of the experience of being an artist in the field. Uh, and layoffs aren't necessarily always a big deal. There's layoffs at the end of a contract. So you might be expecting the end of that contract because the show's coming to an end, or you have an end date. Uh, there's different kinds of contracts like that. There's uh bankruptcies where studios go under. Those are probably the hardest ones to deal with because you aren't necessarily aware of the finances of the company you're working for or what's happening. So you're you might just be totally blindsided by that. And then there are like layoffs when a project gets pulled, which you might be more aware of because you can see the schedule maybe not being met, or you know, like things aren't going so smoothly. Those are hard to spot too, and can be just as uh devastating as well. But I I guess um, in terms of layoffs in that category or any of those categories, have you been part of any of those, John?

SPEAKER_05

I've been probably part of all of them, to be honest. Like yeah, I guess with our experiences, um, and we've been in the the business and the industry quite a long time. Um, yeah, I do have experience with, you know, obviously we we've all gone through periods where our contracts have come to an end, that project is over, the funding is done. Yeah, that's the episodes go to the broadcaster.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's more typical, I think. That like in terms of my experience with layoffs, that's usually how uh like a job ends for me.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. And I think that those ones obviously, you know, it's not easy per se, because you you can be a bit more prepared. Um, but I think, you know, if you do prepare yourself and understand this has been more or less the nature of the business for, you know, decades.

SPEAKER_00

Um yeah, obviously it depends on the state of the industry and how many jobs are flowing around. But do you have uh a process that you work through near the end of a contract when you're preparing for uh the end of a of a gig?

SPEAKER_05

Um yeah, I think that well, for me, I think, and maybe with a lot of people, my my typical process for that would just be, you know, starting in a sense pound the pavement metaphorically today, right? You know, you would start looking for other gigs and contracts just towards the end of your current contract. You want to get your name out there and let people know that you will be available after that specific date, ideally, you know, if if everything is going according to schedule. And uh you do you do see that a lot now, whether you um post something on Facebook or especially LinkedIn. Obviously, LinkedIn is where you would see a lot of that. You and even today, you know, I've seen a few current posts from people that I know where they have mentioned, oh, my contract will be up in two to three weeks. I am I will be on the lookout for this kind of work. Um, and obviously with a network like that, whether it's on LinkedIn or if you have a very strong network of your own, um, you can have friends and colleagues look out for you. If they know something is coming up, they can reach out to you. So I think that's that's essentially what I would do as well. Um, I go through, you know, in that process, I also start cleaning up uh kind of my desktop, right? Uh I know that's a little bit of an aside, but I think it helps me kind of uh, you know, really, really put everything into perspective. The project is ending, I have to take this seriously. Uh, there will be the time now coming up where I will have to just be serious about looking for more work. Or, you know, depending on the project and depending on my state of mind, I might need to take a little time off. So I might appreciate, you know, that there is a bit of time off in between.

SPEAKER_00

I was gonna ask because I've done that in the past as well, where I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna start looking like a month after I'm done.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Uh it obviously depends on your financial situation.

SPEAKER_01

Of course.

SPEAKER_00

But uh, you know, some shows are really intense. And I it's been my experience that taking some time off is really helpful, especially for the job hunt. Yeah, yeah, getting going again.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and I think, you know, again, it does depend on everybody in their contracts. And I think um I think for me it's one of the first things that does enter my mind nowadays, and I think I can elaborate a little bit more later on in our conversation, but you know, you can get to the point of burnout at the end of a contract, depending on how hard it has been. So for me, part of my process is not just, you know, starting to look for work or at least getting my eyes out there and then cleaning up my desktop, cleaning up my workspace, but it's getting into the mental um attitude and state where it's like, am I ready for the next thing? And how soon will I be ready for that next thing?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, even with a contract you know is coming to an end, uh, I don't think we talk about how that can be uh pretty draining as well, because like you've worked so hard to get the project done, you've pushed sometimes you're working long hours. Of course. Uh, and so you've reached your goal, hooray, and then suddenly you're unemployed. It's a sort of an anticlimactic feeling of when you work on on in animation and films, uh, that like, oh, you I've reached the goal, I've achieved what I should have as an employee, and now my reward is unemployment. I think that's a uh you kind of get used to it over the years, and I I have to a certain degree, but there's always that sort of anticlimactic feeling of like, oh I've achieved something and nothing.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, it is kind of yeah, it is a little bittersweet, and I think um, you know, not not to sound like you know, uh happy go lucky kind of person, because I'm I'm certainly not the typical happy go-lucky, but I would say, you know, in most cases you you do have to find that bit of silver lining.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Like if there is going to be downtime, how can we be we be productive with it? What can we do to improve ourselves during that time? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

How do we make it a period of time that we feel we're gonna get something out of?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Rather than just scrambling.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. We can talk about that more in a bit, but there's also like obviously, you know, as we were just saying, there are also different versions of layoffs and terminations. Um, so you know, knowing that you're gonna be finished at the end of a contract is one thing, but obviously, you know, and recently we've heard about a lot of different studio closures and production halts and things like that. So, you know, there are also terminations based on um, you know, like lack of funding. Uh, I've been I've been in studios and in the experiences where there has been terminations because shows have been canceled um on a few for a few different reasons.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, can you tell can you tell us about like one that was particularly tough?

SPEAKER_05

I think one that was uh I guess a little bit tough. I I don't want to say it was really tough on me because I was I guess I got lucky because I was on a show at Cookie Jar. Um, and for anyone that doesn't know Cookie Jar, they were born out of the ashes of Cinnar Entertainment, if I can remember all this correctly. And then eventually they got merged and swallowed up by DHX. And DHX, for anyone that doesn't know, was also separate companies originally. And I think it was Dcode and Halifax Film Company, and then they merged, and that's therefore the DHX. Um, anyways, so I was at Cookie Jar when a show was canceled, and I was brought onto the show early on. They had just started it.

SPEAKER_00

Um, what was your role on that show?

SPEAKER_05

I was a jack of all trades, funny enough. It's funny that you asked me that because I couldn't remember for a little while. Um, because it's it's kind of like way in the past now, but yeah, um, so basically the show was something called Peter Pepper's Pet Spectacular. There's our alliteration tongue twister, yeah. Um, and I was brought on because I think I we had just wrapped up on a season of Johnny Test. It might have been Johnny Test season four, and so they were trying to keep the crew on, you know, those of us that were left, and I was 80 on that season of Johnny Tess. Anyway, so they moved me on to Peter Pepper. And at the beginning, I was helping out with design. So I was doing, I believe, some prop design, and maybe there was a location in there somewhere. And but then they also asked me to help out with effects design. So these were mostly just fun pack designs to help get the board artist started and the the actual production design team.

SPEAKER_00

Was it was it funded at this point?

SPEAKER_05

Uh it was kind of, and I guess that's what I'm alluding to. So um basically, from what I understand, I don't have every single detail about it, but what I recall is that it basically got a tentative green light. Um, and that meant provided that all the funding would come through from, and I'm assuming it may have been CMF or something, um, it was gonna go ahead, and that felt like it was a small contingent. So there was uh again, I think there was some bridge financing involved to just cover it while we were getting things started up.

SPEAKER_00

Um how aware of this were you when you were working on it?

SPEAKER_05

Uh not aware at all.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_05

Um simply because I was kind of thrown onto the project. Um, they asked me, Oh, can you help out with this, this, and that? And that actually included boarding uh part of the first episode. So I literally was doing design and effects and storyboarding. Um, and when I finished that part of the storyboard, they pulled me off because they had uh issues on another show where I had they basically brought me in to replace the the director. Um, and then I was on that other show for about a month, I think. And that's when I heard the news. I got uh emails from people that I've been working with on Peter Pepper. Um, and my wife who worked at Cookie Jar at the time, but although I think she was on a different project at the time as well. But I got these emails from everybody, oh my god, they've just canceled the show. And I'm like, what? I thought we were good, because again, like you, you know, you're like, oh, I think you know, we've started, we're almost, I think we were we had launched the fourth episode in the storyboards on Peter Pepper.

SPEAKER_00

So it felt feels like it has momentum, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and then after that, I think uh a few days later, I you know, kind of asked around, and that's when I got the impression that the final funding didn't come through, and so the bridge financing would have basically fallen through based on that as well, right?

SPEAKER_00

And so were you laid off at this point?

SPEAKER_05

Uh, I wasn't, like I said, I was on that other show. They brought me to a different show to replace a director, so I was brought in halfway into the other show to kind of fix it up, tie it up, and then get it back on track. But the people that were on Peter Pepper at that point were laid off. Um, and I think one or two of them were moved to a one of the other, or one or two other productions at Cookie Jar at the time. So there were there were a few different shows going on that some of the people were able to move on to, but obviously not everybody could have been moved on. Like I'm pretty sure any of the um freelance board artists probably had to look for other work because the other productions were already well into their schedules. So I don't think there was much in terms of storyboards or maybe even early design work.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that sounds pretty messy. I mean, even when you're not in that group of people that's basically off it, it can have an impact on you.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and these are people I'd worked with for, you know, at least a few years already, right? We were we were essentially transposed from Johnny Test over to this Peter Pepper, and some of those people I'd worked with even beyond that, like way before. So it was it was disappointing to hear, obviously, because you're like, oh, you know, like I thought everything was good, and you know, but the but the good thing is most people at that time, because work was okay, um, most people did land on their feet elsewhere, if not again on other projects at Cookie Jar, but other projects elsewhere.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think what stands out about that experience is how you can be so unaware of whether things are going well or not on a f from a financial standpoint. Like you can feel like there's lots of work happening, people are busy, and things fall apart at the same time. I mean, I was working at ARC when it went um went went bankrupt. And while I think it was a bit of a shock, um there were quite a lot of signs that things weren't uh going well. Uh, they were losing shows uh and then they lost the show that I was on. Uh I I was on a Disney show at the time. And I, you know, at this point in my career, I'd been part of a couple of closures already. So I was getting, you know, like that set the sensation I'd had previously. You don't always know. Like sometimes really troubled projects finish. Um but when they're starting to leave the studio, and then there were signs internally, like, you know, we used to have a bagel Monday breakfast, that didn't happen. Uh, and then the final straw, I think it was right before they closed. They they uh didn't pay anybody on the scheduled payday, you know, they put out an email saying there was problems in the bank or whatever. Um but that everything was cool. And then uh that's the other thing about uh like a sudden studio closure is the lines of communication that you normally deal with in a company suddenly disappear. Uh so like they were sort of communicating with us, but the way I found out that the studio closed uh was different than most people or everybody. But uh a friend of mine in the industry saw it posted on uh one of the animation resource pages, like animation community or something, and he was like, Is this your company? And I think it was at night I found out. And I was like, Oh, that is my company. Yeah, but some people went in the next day and there was just a a sign on the door saying that they were closed and not open. I'm not sure exactly what it said, but like in it was essentially that.

SPEAKER_05

Like I wasn't part of ARC at the time, and it's funny because you brought up three I want to say funny because it it sounds funny, but um but those are three words, yeah, really good points about what to watch out for, right? Like the first is your payments, like your that's the that's a number one red flag.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, if you're not getting paid, I'm extremely skeptical about doing free work that I think you should be on your heels if that is happening.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and keep in mind, like for our the listeners, like it it it is a little bit different if only one or two people aren't being paid. Like there could be a problem with payroll, maybe your invoicing go in properly. I've had you know a few cases in the past where my timesheet or sorry, my um uh my uh my invoice as a freelancer got missed in a pile of paper on someone's desk, right? And that does happen. It sucks, but it does happen.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, it for sure. If it's company wide, that's the probably the biggest red flag. The other thing I think people should bear in mind, because I know people who have worked through periods where you know the company is saying, No, we're we're just pulling it together, you know, smaller companies sometimes say that and it's worked out for them in the end. But I think you have to be aware that anytime you put in in that window of time where you're not being paid, you have to accept you may not you you may never be paid for that. Right. You know, it's a it's a risk you are taking. Um, so you have to assess your own personal situation for sure the company. Um in my experience, it's probably the best time to start looking for work. Like that's yeah, like if it's a bagel day that doesn't happen, you know, that doesn't mean every everything, but if you put them all together, it paints a picture that's a little bit more clear.

SPEAKER_05

Actually, the bagel day is a almost like a telltale sign as well. It's weird. So just before we talk about bagel day, um the second thing is communication. If you do find your lines of communication are suddenly quieter, yeah. There's a little more silence and things suddenly seem a little uneasy. And you can feel the energy, yeah, I think within the studio. I mean, obviously, if you're in the studio, you can feel it more. But if you're working remotely and you find that there's just a little less communication happening, and again, it really depends on the the studio. It depends on your team, how much communication you're used to. Exactly. That's again, that's just something to keep and be aware of, right? Just keep it keep it in in the forefront of your mind. Um, because if it is something that's uh really unusual, may not mean that the studio is going to close. It just may mean something is happening but some behind the scenes that needs to be dealt with.

SPEAKER_00

Um yeah, something I learned through that experience, and this is Ontario specific, uh, is that there is a uh basically an Ontario wide insurance policy for that you play you, I think you pay into with your taxes. It's called WEP. Um, it covered about two weeks of my unpaid wages due to bankruptcy. Um so and I didn't need to like apply through the company for that or anything. Like, you know, I just applied to the government. Um, and so that was handy because I was owed basically two weeks of work. But there were people there who had worked there for 20 years who were owed quite a bit of severance. There were people who would put expenses on their own cards and and had been for some time and not being paid back. So that's another thing. Like uh, I you know, as an animator, I'm very rarely, if ever asked to put expenses on a credit card, but I would be really, really cautious about that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh in fact, if some if somebody's asking me as an artist to put money on my credit card to buy anything, I would probably say no because that seems like a scam. Like strikes me as quite scammy.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, to me that that definitely is like that's a red flag. If they're asking you to cover your expenses, especially if you are an employee, like a full-time studio employee, you should not be paying for those expenses out of your own pocket. It's different if you're a contractor.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's also different if your role requires that. Like if you're somebody who is regularly doing orders for the company, I I don't know how comfortable I'd be with that either, but at least it would be a more standard operation. I do know people who work in other roles where that that happens. But as an artist in animation, yeah, like beyond uh maybe buying my own webcam, I'm not uh necessarily paying for their equipment and stuff like that. It depends on what you've signed up for in the contract. Like if they're like you're using your own machine, then you should work you should work that into your contract, into your pay ahead of time.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and if they're asking you to buy the studio's bagels with your own card, that's that's a certain yeah, especially if that's not something you do. Yeah. So the bagel story is funny because we had that um we had that issue at uh studio I was with. So the studio I was with originally was Phoenix Animation, and it eventually got bought up by Catalyst Entertainment, which then merged with Cambium Entertainment and became CCI or Cambium Catalyst International. So I've been part of mergers and acquisitions as well, which is another form of uh not necessarily termination. It can lead to termination and a layoff, but sometimes for the first year or two, you may be able to continue with the new merge company, uh, that new entity, and then they may change their production strategies and stuff, and then you get made uh you may get laid off shortly after.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's a really messy area because I I from my understanding, there's different kinds of mergers. So, like there's a merger where they maybe are taking over your studio and things will just continue to run as normal and you're still under the original contract. But there aren't there are mergers where like they're buying the employees, at which point you should be getting a new contract, you should be getting a new deal because you are now an employee of a different company. Uh so that in that case, if I were in that situation, I would hire an employment lawyer immediately. Like that is something because it can get very confusing. And and hopefully they're not pressuring you to sign something immediately, although that I'm sure that happens. Yeah. But like definitely in that case, talk to somebody.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, in my case, because I was always um on contract, I was uh uh independent contractor uh during those periods. Basically, and and usually with the deals that I've been part of where the studios got merged or uh acquired, the contracts and the production contracts remain the same because we had to finish the show. It didn't matter who started the show, the show and the series still needed to be completed. So my contract is with the production, not necessarily with the new mothership. Exactly. So nothing really changed in that sense. Space, we may have had to move the Studio, we may have had to just change who we reported to at times, but essentially the production went on as nothing had kind of happened. Um, but in that case, and this kind of goes back to your bagel story. Bagels, free food, these are frivolities that if a studio is running out of money, what are they gonna cut first?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05

Those are the things, right? And it's you know, obviously, it's great that they can offer that. It's really nice of them to offer breakfast and the bagels and stuff. But if they suddenly disappear one day and they don't come back, it means money is getting tight. And it doesn't mean again, it doesn't mean you're gonna get terminated, it doesn't mean the world is going to end, but it means the wallet has to tighten a little bit and they have to watch their spending on things like that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think it's important to be a bit skeptical in those situations, if if only so the mental blow when it the hammer falls is a little less severe. Um I mean it does take a bit of experience to notice when that stuff is happening. Um my first big uh layoff, which was it wasn't a bankruptcy, it was a studio closure. So I worked in California for a while uh at a studio called Cinderbiter. It was owned by Disney, it was set up by uh Henry Selleck to do stop mo films. He had like a four-picture deal or three-picture deal or something, and so that was a bit more of an eventful layoff for me because there were a lot of more factors. Uh big one being my work visa. Obviously, you know, when your visa is tied to employment, if you lose that employment, you've lost the right to be in the country.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so that's quite uh scary. The other thing was like it was it was kind of a dream project for me. It was my first big break in feature films. I I really like I had worked really hard to get there, uh, moved my whole life to another country, even though the states can seem very similar in a lot of ways, especially San Francisco to Canada. Uh, it was still culture shock for me. You know, you're away from your family, you're doing it all on your own, figuring out a new system. Like uh, so it was it was a really intense experience. I was there for about a year and a half, and my partner ended up staying for about four years because he eventually found work there. But um the layoff was like a really emotional blow. Like Disney decided to cancel the project. They've called us into a big meeting, and during that meeting, they announced online that the project was over. So that was it was also really public.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and I was really close with a lot of the people I was working with as well. It was a big it was one of those scenarios where it did feel like a big family.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh uh stop, it was a stop motion feature, so you you're much more engaged on a personal level than maybe working on a computer. And so I had the immigration side of it to deal with. I had a personal tragedy in the my family happening at the same time. It was very overwhelming. Um and at the time I wasn't very happy about it. Uh, I felt kind of like it had a big impact on the trajectory of my career. It probably did. Um, I think in the long run it's worked out fine, but at the time it was pretty devastating because like I didn't have any anything to show for it either on my on my reel. Um and yeah, I was I, you know, I was like, what do I do? Well I didn't I hadn't been through it before and it was such an a big event that uh was kind of terrifying. Uh I think in a lot of ways it was a really uh positive experience for me, you know, other than the negative sides of things, like it wasn't at the time. But when I look back on it, I can see that it it has helped my career, even though it wasn't the way I wanted it to help my career.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so it's hard to, you know, maybe looking at layoffs as like I know it sucks, but it's it's kind of the nature of the beast. Um, and to not take it personally. Like that's another thing you like, even though it's not a personal statement about your work, it can feel like I'm a loser. This happened to me for some reason. And I think, especially having been part of a number of them now, yeah, it gets easier to realize, all right, time to move on.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and it's not uncommon. I think, you know, you look at a lot of industries around the world, it happens more often than people realize.

SPEAKER_00

You know, when I was telling people about these layoffs when I was younger, people were a bit more shocked than they are now. Now it's it's more standard across all industries for sure.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. I actually, if I if I may ask, like um, when that did happen to you in the States, where along the project roughly were you? Were you like halfway through? Like, can you kind of give us a gauge on that?

SPEAKER_00

You know, in hindsight, when I look back on it, I can see why the project was canceled. We were a year about a year into production, and we'd only I think we shot like eight minutes of the film. Uh and that a lot of that there were a lot of reasons for that. You know, there uh we were delayed in in our department because the story was still being worked on. You know, there and then there it was a pretty messy production as well. So you could you could see like like I think we just all got used to the fact that it was seemed so out of whack.

SPEAKER_04

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um so you kind of think, well, I guess this is how this project will be. Also was my first feature film in California. I was like, maybe this is how they run, you know. Seems weird, but you know, maybe that's how it goes. Um, so yeah, we were in a way we were far into the production, and in a way we weren't, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh so uh again, that was my first big, big studio closure. I learned a lot from that experience. Like I've taken a lot of that process, and I use it now when I'm part of a layoff and go, okay, what did I do last time? What what happened last time? Um, and so it has made like when ARC closed, I was fine. Like I remember people really shocked, but I'd only worked at the company for maybe eight months. Uh so I was like, all right, uh on to the next thing. Like it is shocking to a certain degree, but yeah, you become a little thick skinned to a little comfortably numb. Yeah, I really and I was really like I did have a spidey sense that something wasn't right for that one, too.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I think it's funny, um, kind of coming back to ARC because I remember um I I had a couple of producers reach out to me leading up to that point.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, they were still hiring, and that's also something that happens before our studio closes. They will still be hiring.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. And so um, in in those two occasions, they were reaching out to me about I think it was some storyboard work. First time I think the the timing wasn't good, but then literally, I think it was about two months before they closed. Another producer reached out to me about some storyboard work, and I'm like, oh, you know, maybe I'll have to see my contracts coming to an end and the timing might work. And um, I said, just keep me posted when things are ready. And I asked, like, you know, because I had heard so much about the expansion of ARC at the time they moved to one building, and I was told, I can't remember the exact figures. Obviously, I may be a little bit off, but they were saying they were looking to expand to about anywhere from six to eight hundred employees, I think it was. It was like a huge number, yeah. Oh, and there was a part of me that was like, that's kind of big.

SPEAKER_00

It was already quite large too when I was there.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. And so all these things, not that I worried about them because again, I had no inside information about what was happening there, but there was a part of me that, you know, because the business side of me that follows the stock market and kind of business trends and stuff, it's kind of like, okay, the growth is very quick for a short span. They are expanding into this giant new space. Where is all this money coming from? And I know a couple of years before that they gotten that essentially like grant, or I think it was a loan from one of the government levels. I don't remember how much it was, but there was a big infusion. Um, so I think that that helped a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think uh it's less of a red flag that a co uh an animation company might expand quickly because you know, if they get a project, they have to grow up really fast, right? But you're right, like Arc was a s a strange company. Um, I think something we haven't really covered a lot about, and we can I I think maybe it needs its own episode. We should talk about how animation companies finance projects a little bit. In Canada, a lot of the financing does not actually get paid out until sometimes years later, right? Like tax credits or grant money. And so what these companies do is they get bridge loans, like you were talking about earlier, or they go to investors and they say cover our this expense until we get paid, and they expect to get paid when that funding comes through. And that's how most of these projects operate. They're operating on debt to a large degree.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so that's a pretty precarious way for a business to operate. I I find most animation companies are are a little precarious this way, and that's why you hear about them closing so often because like one domino falls financially, and it can mean all the dominoes fall.

SPEAKER_05

Exactly. Yeah, it is it's borrowed time and borrowed money, right? Yeah, a lot of it. And it's expensive. Like animation is not cheap to do. I mean, yes, you could do your own piece at home, you can do it on your own time, but when you're running a studio with all this overhead, you know, paying for electricity, paying for the equipment, whatever. Um, and then you're trying to build a studio to do production, which involves hundreds of people at times, right? Uh, it requires a lot of money. And that's why, you know, I knew even when I was young in the industry, I'm kind of like of the attitude, like one, money, money never grows on trees. I wish it did, but it doesn't. And so that money comes from somewhere. Where does it come from? Comes from these grants and loans and bridge loans and bank uh, you know, bank loans and stuff. So money is quite tight in terms of that production contract and the schedule.

SPEAKER_00

And early in my early in my career, I worked at a company called Cup of Coffee Animation, which is a stop motion studio. And we were all aware, I don't know how legal well, you know, I think what companies do is they get the next project and they're funding the last project with that money.

SPEAKER_04

Sometimes that happens, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh I don't know what the legality of that is, but it seemed it seemed pretty common when I was working. I also don't have evidence that that was the case, but it was like, so it's just this is alleged or whatever, but uh but I I think that's a sort of a well-known thing.

SPEAKER_05

And again, that's not it's not unique to animation. It happens in a lot of other businesses where um basically you creatively shift money, you cook up the books a little bit to shift money around to help cover costs on other productions. And yeah, I've been with studios where that's happened, and sometimes it happens blatantly because, like, if we don't do this, we can't finish that project and we've got to find a way.

SPEAKER_00

Sometimes my paycheck would say a different production company, right? Yeah, like than the one I'd been hired for. So the you know, like they're not hiding it that much.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, um, and then you have the you know, kind of what you were saying about almost the opposite of, you know, if it's a financing issue that terminates a contract or bankrupts a studio or just causes a studio to close, you do have the opposite, which is sometimes a little more of the creative side, where maybe in your case that was, you know, with Disney kind of deciding to shut it down. In my case.

SPEAKER_00

Wasn't that a bankruptcy? That was Disney decided to pull the plug. They didn't feel like the project was gonna be worth it. Um and in a way, that was to my benefit as an employee because I was part of the animation union out there. Uh I I, you know, I had mixed experience being part of a union. I would say that in the US it was really worth it. Right. Uh, you know, my benefits came through the union, and uh, you know, I I think I had retirement savings with them. But also the contract that had been negotiated with the union was that if they shuttered the project, we got every employee got two months of pay, which was extremely valuable to me as a foreign worker because it meant that I was still employed for two months after that date, which means I could get my life in order. I had a window of time to like figure things out. So, you know, I know there's different opinions about unions. Uh, I think they're different in Canada for value than they are in the US. Um, but that in my personal experience in that one very specific instance, uh, it had a lot of value for me because I didn't negotiate that. Like I didn't, I I didn't have the power to like negotiate with the producer and be like, if you guys go bankrupt, I need some protection, you know. And I wouldn't have asked for that either because it was my big break. I was really young and I was hungry for just an opportunity, right? So there's there's no incentive for me to like defend myself, right?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, some of that is the inexperience as well, because you don't know what to expect. You kind of know what you don't know, especially with bigger companies, like I had that experience, like on two different scales. Like uh I was working on a kind of like a small feature for Netflix through a local studio, and they decided to cancel that. It was at a time when kind of the streaming wars were really coming to a height and Disney was entering and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And um, you know, investment was starting to get really weird, especially after COVID. So essentially, the uh Netflix had decided to cancel that project. Um, so the same kind of thing, although I wasn't a foreign worker, but same same idea. It's like, well, we just don't feel like it would serve our purposes at this point, and the money would be better spent elsewhere, essentially, right? And then on a smaller scale, with the small studio I was with, we were working on a service contract for, well, Nelvana. And again, it was mismanaged, it wasn't really managed that well. And I told you that story before before we started recording, but because of that mismanagement, the small studio decided, you know what, we're not going to do it anymore. We're just going to throw it back at them because they're wasting our time, they're wasting our resources, and they're wasting our money.

SPEAKER_00

I think uh personally, I think that shows intelligence on the studio side because I've worked for plenty of projects where we just roll over for like whether it's a we're a service company or whether it's our project and we're rolling over for a creative director. And I've been part of the ends of projects because either the studio won't say no or the production team won't say no, or the or the contracts are designed so poorly that they just eat up the resources of the company. So, like just like if you were working on a team with somebody who's doing nothing and they get away with it and don't get fired, it it sucks the energy out of you because you know, like you know it's to the detriment of the project and the company. You want to work for a company that has some defense mechanism in place.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and respects the employees. Like, you know, for us, we we had started hiring a lot of freelance artists to work on this project. So it sucked that we had to kind of tell them I'm sorry, or we laid off some of them, right? Because they were ready to start. Um, and then it sucked that I had to call a bunch of people and say, oh, you know, that project that was gonna start in about three to four weeks. We had to cancel it here because this is what had happened. And I felt bad because you know, those people were relying on that additional work, whether they were going to do it at night or it was going to be their next gig after they finished something.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, for sure. I that is, yeah, I I understand the sympathy for that situation because I've I've been in their shoes and I understand it, but maybe that's what this whole episode is sort of about is like if you work in it in this industry, you kind of have to be prepared for anything.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh some of that means, uh, and I know it's really hard for people who are starting out to build up a buffer, financial buffer, but that is the number one piece of advice I would give to people working in animation is save for a period of unemployment if it's possible. Like, because it's going to happen and you're gonna you're gonna need that buffer. I know it's real I have the advantage of starting in the industry when rents were low, cost of living was low, and I had quite a few periods of like between show breaks, and I became aware that oh, I I should save. So I started saving like as soon as I got into the industry, but I had I had the wiggle room to do that financially. So obviously it's easier said than done, but if you can do it, it's the number one piece of advice.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, definitely I agree. Like there's you know, save your pennies for that rainy day, even if it's a small amount, you don't know what that can do for you in these downturns. Um, even if it buys you a couple weeks of whether it's groceries or just time to not worry, that can be really important to your mental health, right? To our mental health.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, maybe we should talk about uh EI, like unemployment insurance, um, because that is something I've utilized as well as saving. Um, it's something that a lot of people I work with have used at one point or another, you know, even if it's just like while you're looking for work, which is what it's for, yes, yeah. It it can be really beneficial, especially if you've paid, you know, you're paying into it. So it's something as a Canadian, you're entitled to.

SPEAKER_05

Um I think you're you're the best one to talk about this because I funny enough, for anyone that doesn't know, I have very little experience with EI. And the only couple times I've actually tried to apply for EI were really early in my career, and I was denied both times. So I basically said, screw it, I'm just gonna go on my own and deal with things on my own.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but let's talk about why you were denied, right? Like it you didn't meet the requirements at that time.

SPEAKER_05

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Am I correct?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, the first time I was short, I believe, just about two weeks. And at the time I had applied, this is a long time ago, too. Um, I believe you needed a minimum of about 28 weeks of work. And I was at about changed. That's yeah, it's much lower now. We were looking it up not too long ago, and it's kind of closer to the 20-week, uh, maybe a little less than that right now. But yeah, it was about 28 weeks from what I remember.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, every province seems to have a different uh requirement for hours that you need to have worked to qualify.

SPEAKER_05

Um, so definitely work, yeah, wherever you are, look that up. Make sure you understand what those requirements are and like get on it as soon as you can, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah, you should apply as soon as you are laid off. Um, I've in in the past I've had I've done that, I've qualified and I've gotten a job before I got anything from EI. And that's like the best case scenario in my mind because I don't want to be on EI, I want to be working. Um, but it helps so, so much. And I think at the beginning of my career, a lot of and a lot of people I know still sort of think, oh, it's a you know, it's a bit um I don't know, depressing or something, or maybe you you you're you're giving up or something. But I look at it as a tool uh that I've paid into exactly and that I'm gonna use what if it's available. And maybe that perception has changed, like maybe people are more open to the idea. Um But yeah, you should apply right away because you don't know the length of time you you might be off for. And I don't quote me the 100%. I've heard that the later you apply, it can shorten the the period of time that you are eligible for. So if you had like 40 weeks and you apply like a month or two months later, maybe that shortens that 40 weeks. I I don't know. The other thing I would recommend about EI, if you're unclear, go online, read all the history, it can be confusing. But you can call and just ask directly. But I would say for just straight end of contract layoff, uh just apply online. It's pretty easy to do. You don't have to call in, they'll tell you whether you qualify or not. Um, and maybe we were talking about this quite recently as well. Is uh oh no, I was talking to someone else about this. You should check your ROE hours. Maybe that's what we were talking about. This yeah. So just make sure that the information's correct, uh, because it it can be incorrect sometimes. And you and it like whether you qualify for ER or not, it matters about your hours, but also how much you'll qualify for, right? Because not everybody gets the full amount. Yeah I I don't know how they uh they decide. Um, and there's a max amount you can get to, like you can't go over a certain amount.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um so I've used it, it has been very helpful to finding my next job. The I did get called in once for the randomly select for an information session. Um, and which point they want to see that a record of jobs you're applying for. Uh so that's another thing I would recommend doing wh while you're on EI. Just keep a list of all the jobs you're applying for. Um That was the biggest thing. You know, keep a record of just of what you're doing while you're looking for work. The session I went to was more an information session about how you should look for work. A lot of it was about what is considered defrauding the EI system. So be aware, you know, you can't leave the country. Um, you know, you can't but you know, all the things you would think is defrauding the government are probably considered so that's what the information session was about. And the biggest big hurdle people had when they went to that meeting was that they hadn't filled out this form. So just fill out the form. It may have changed by now. I I've done it, I've done EI a few times for some for smaller and longer windows, and I've only been called in once, but you know, be aware that it can happen. Um but yeah, it sounds like yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00

No, uh it's mostly been very helpful to me. Uh, you know, it's not it doesn't pay as well as your job, so you want to be working.

SPEAKER_05

Of course, yeah. I think the big thing for for me, like, and I think through any of this process, whether it's through the termination layoffs or whatever, even as you're applying for EI, is like just try to stay managing yourself, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, treat it like a job, your own job. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

As you were saying, like keep track of these forms and especially with EI, make sure you get on that as soon as possible, make sure you understand what uh the parameters are on your application for that. And definitely check your ROE. I've had that issue myself.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. The other thing is that uh currently I think during COVID it was different, but they they tax your EI. So in most cases, they'll have taken your ta the taxes off. So you'll get a I think it's a T2 at the end of the year. Don't quote me on that, but but you have to file that with your taxes as well. So that's another thing to keep be aware of.

SPEAKER_04

Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Definitely stay on top of all that.

SPEAKER_00

So you don't have a lot of experience with uh EI. Um, I I know also you do a lot of freelance work. So am I correct? You have your own company. So if you're a freelancer, you're not paying into that system as well.

SPEAKER_05

So technically you are. Um you technically are still doing that. You can opt out of it, I believe. Don't quote me on that. But as a as a um incorporation, I pay myself as an employee of my incorporation. So EI still paid. So all these years, technically, I've still been paying at the EI and have not received one cent. Not to sound like crumbly bum or anything, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um well, you also don't qualify for EI if you make over a certain amount per year as well. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05

So that was the second time uh that I applied that I was denied the EI. So that's it.

SPEAKER_00

I think that would that tells you is that you've made more money than me, John.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. I guess it did. I guess I was just too gung ho up on my job at the time because again, it was only I think about two or three years after I started in in the business. So the first time, like within the first year, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna apply for EI. Nope, denied because I didn't have enough weeks. And then the year or two after that, I applied again, thinking, oh, I think I have enough like week, a weekage, I guess if I can use that term. Um, and then they told me, no, you made too much money in that period, so you can't apply for it. So I was kind of like, well, what good is all of this if I'm never gonna be able to apply for it?

SPEAKER_00

Well, it's not in that case, it's not meant for you, right? Like it's meant for people who really need really need it, right? Um which and I think that means I make less money than you as well. But maybe we could beyond just the financial side of it, maybe we could talk and wrap up today, just talking a bit about the mental side of damp time periods. Uh, you know, sometimes you might know that you have another project coming up, so it's a nice little gap, and you're just like, whatever, I don't have I can just enjoy it. Um, but I think something we don't talk about is uh how hard it can be to just be like looking for work every day. And so since I've been through quite a few periods of unemployment, uh shorter and longer, I like to think of it as like how can I best utilize this period of unemployment? Uh you know, once you've had these gaps for a few times, it's less scary. And you know, I'm gonna find something. It's gonna come. I have to accept that that this is part of my process. Um, but how do I like how do I enjoy this time, whether that's working on a personal project, uh, you know, making a lot of contacts, or just, you know, like going out and enjoying the weather if it's nice. Because there's so many periods where you're just hauling ass on a project and you're missing your life. And in a and I so I want to think of it as like I'm a bit lucky in my career because I have these periods to reflect, think about is this what I want to do? How can I change what I'm doing? Like when you're in a job, you don't necessarily spend the time thinking about that, or don't have the time to do that.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Yeah. I I'm the same way, like with the experiences now, layoff periods to me are a way for me to recharge myself, uh, realign my spirit and my soul. I know that sounds a little, you know, a little deep maybe. Um, but I think it's important for people to look at it that way too. Yes, we all have to make money, we have to pay the bills and we have mouths to feed. Um, and during that period of downtime, you know, a lot of us may use that time, you know, productively. It can be like working on your portfolio, getting a few new samples and trying to enjoy that process as well. Because through throughout that process and even the process of finding a new hobby during that downtime, because maybe you realize, oh, maybe I need to do something outside of think about work or think about animation all the time. I need to find a new hobby, or again, as you said, just enjoying life, life with your family, life with your friends. Um, these are times where you can really, you know, find things to do that better yourself as a person. And I think that that's a good way to look at it.

SPEAKER_00

I like to think about uh when I come to the end of a period of unemployment and I've started that job. Uh I I in the past have looked back on that period of unemployment and I wish I'd done more with the days that I had that were mine, right? Like solely mine. So I try to do the reverse now. I like to think of like if I start my next job, what do I wish that I'd done during this period?

SPEAKER_04

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh and and and I have had I have enjoyed unemployment to surgery. I know that sounds funny. Um uh also the you know, once it gets really long, you know, there's also windows of like, oh, this sucks, right? Like, I'm not saying it always works for me. Um, but like, you know, I have more tools in my tool belt to to make it a better experience. I mean, my first big downtime, I knew it was coming. It was the end of a show. I knew there wasn't gonna be another show. And I prepped my I did my own short film in that window. Um and it was really a positive experience. I'm not saying you have to like make something, you don't have to come out of that period with a product. Uh, but I but it was something I really wanted to do, and I suddenly had the time to do it. So that's sort of how I think of it. Like, what do I really want to do with this time?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I think, you know, actually you use the word product, and I'm I'm going to piggyback on that because I think what it is is you want to come out of any time with yourself as a better product. You see yourself as that product, right? You come out of a contract, you've worked hard with a new family on that production. You've got a new crew, perhaps new people, you're learning new things, and that's bettering you in your career. And then when you get into these periods of downtime, one month, six months, whatever it may be. And obviously today, because of the industry, these are longer periods. Yes. Um, think of yourself as your own product, right? I I, you know, I kind of hate it, hate to make it sound like marketing, but in a way it is. Like, how can you improve yourself mentally, spiritually, and even in your skill that's going to get you better the next day or even a month from then? And then you can, you know, get into your next contract that better a person.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think product might be the wrong word for it. Like, uh, you know, because you don't need to like have done something during an unemployment that feeds into the job. Uh, it can be a matter of just like, I spent a lot of time outside and I feel good, you know? Uh, and that's not necessarily a product. Like, I guess that the way you're using it is kind of like, how do I become a better human? Yes, exactly. Um, and I think that's like when I hear product, I think, oh, I have to like sell this to someone. The product can just be I feel good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Yeah, this is exactly what it is. And and for me, like I went through I had finished directing a series and I was pretty much burnt out. I wasn't burnt out to the extent uh I was burnt out very early on in my career, but I was nearing burnout again and I could feel it. I'm like, I've got to do something different for this period. I have to not really look for work. And uh that's when I decided to learn about watchmaking. Um, and that throws a lot of people off. It threw a lot of people off at the time. And I think for anyone that knows me today, it seems like something that may have always been a part of me, but really I only did that back in like 2012 or 2013, yeah, which isn't really that long ago.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's a great suggestion.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, it was like actively looking for something that I knew I loved and would enjoy, but still, because of who I am, I really like challenging myself. I tend to like abuse myself in many different ways that way. So I was like, I need to do something. And it just happened to be that because I always love watches as a kid and I have a small hobby with collecting watches, you know. I thought, well, I want to buy a watch that has this kind of particular feature. And anyone who did make it made a watch that I wasn't really aesthetically drawn to. And so the journey started with me trying to find a watchmaker locally that could help me build a watch that I would like. And I couldn't find anyone at the time. A lot of them were like, This is crazy, you know how much it costs, and you know how much time it would take. And I was offering myself as a free apprentice to some watchmakers on the weekends just to say, hey, teach me.

SPEAKER_00

Correct me if I'm wrong. You you've kind of found a community through this experience as well of people doing this a similar thing, right?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, like all over the internet, and even like there are Canadian groups, and I have met a lot of Canadian watchmakers to independent watchmakers who um uh at the end of the day have been become very helpful to me in that path as well. And I've met a lot of great ones and I've met a lot of, you know, not that they're terrible people, but you know, I've met a lot of ones who basically told me, don't bother. Um, but again, with my mentality, I'm like, no one tells me what to do. I'm gonna find a way to do it.

SPEAKER_00

Well, if you you know, if you if it's giving you energy, it's giving you passion for somebody. It doesn't, yeah, like that's all you're looking for, you know. Um, my mom's a really passionate photographer, but she doesn't sell her pictures, she doesn't need to. She gets something out of it, right? It doesn't have to be a revenue, it doesn't have to be worth it in a financial sense. Right.

SPEAKER_05

And that's the thing. It's like when you have these times where you can have time to yourself, find the things you love to do, whether it is a very specific hobby, or as you said, sometimes even taking that 10 minutes a day to go outside and take a walk. Rain, sun, sleep, snow, whatever it may be, but take some time for yourself and get away from staring at the scintique or your drawing desk or getting out of the chair. Like just get away from that for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I guess I'd like to just wrap up by saying like layoffs don't have to be a disaster all the time. There can be a lot of positives that come out of it. Uh, one of them, the biggest one in my opinion, is the period of reflection, like the the ability to stop and stop thinking about the day-to-day and start thinking about like the whole picture, whether it's working or not. Um, which isn't something everybody is afforded in in their careers. And if it does happen, it can be like after a long period of working and it can and and the shock of it can be so overwhelming you don't get to participate in that side of it.

SPEAKER_05

And I think that's it's really important for people to self-reflect because it allows you to grow personally, right? Yeah. I think if you can reflect on yourself and reflect on the good and the bad, because you know, obviously it can go both ways, and we learn from mistakes, we learn from things that may not have gone our way. But those are the things that can oftentimes propel us forward over a new obstacle because we now have that experience. But also the good things, right? Like you work with great people and you can appreciate those people and you want to carry that forward. And I often, you know, if if I can't often tell my crew and the people I've worked with, if you've had those great experiences, try to offer that to someone else down the road.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05

Right. Give them a chance to have that same feeling and say, hey, it was amazing to work with you and amazing to learn from you. And now they can take that and offer it to someone else because that's sometimes, you know, as cheesy as it sounds, it it is a really great gift you can give somebody and allow them to grow in the same way.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, uh, here's to what we can learn from layoffs, but also let's not be part of any more of them.

SPEAKER_05

Yes, let's let's try to try to mitigate them a little bit more and watch out for those bagels disappearing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the bagels. I've actually heard that from a few people that there's like like maybe not bagels specifically, but the other things like that have tipped them off in the past.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I've I've had bagel experiences twice like that. So yeah, it's funny that bagels comes up all the time.

SPEAKER_00

All right. Well, thanks so much for sharing some of your personal experiences with me, John.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, and thank you too.

SPEAKER_00

It's it's something that everybody gets to experience at some point working in the film and animation industry. So it's good to know what to expect.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. And I hope everyone can take a little bit from our discussion today. And if you have an experience yourself and you can share your experience with someone else that might be going through it right now, and and just, you know, I think the important thing is just to support each other and let people know that, you know, it it is something that we've gone through, but you can kind of be supportive of each other and find avenues outside of um, you know, kind of the typical day-to-day of being being on a production, find ways to make that downtime productive to you, uh, being self-reflective, being productive if you do want to take time to work on your own stuff as well. There are many things you can do to make that downtime more valuable to you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Extracting some value from the experience for sure.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

All right. Thanks so much, John. All right, thank you so much. Yeah, looking forward to our next chat.

SPEAKER_05

Until next time, Kathy, thank you so much, and thank you to all the listeners. The ATC podcast is created and hosted by Kathy McDonald and John Lee. Music by Mike Romania, fixing and editing by Kathy McDonald and produced by Irene.