ACC Podcast - Growing in Animation - Eric DeCarolis

In this episode of the Animation Career Community, we speak with veteran animator, Eric De Carolis, about his career starting from the Canadian animation scene, to working on high profile projects such as K Pop Demon Hunters, and Goat at Sony Pictures Image Works. We talk about the surprising paths animation careers can take, and how the influence of family changed the trajectory of his life.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:17

I identified with the animator with high class working on the animation scheme and now working at Sony Pictures ImageWorks on such high profile projects as K-pop demon hunters. Having worked with Eric as both an animator and a lead, I can test with incredible talent, but also that he's just an incredible guy to work with. Get ready. It's going to be a good one. All right. Well, uh Eric, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being on it. It's a it's really a pleasure to have you. Um I feel pretty lucky that I got to work with you and now I get to talk to you about your career path and and everything you're doing right now. And I was hoping you could start by telling us how you got started in the animation industry. Like, did you go to school for uh animation? Uh how did you get interested in in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Uh well, first off, thank you for having me. And uh thank you for making me sound way more important than I actually am. Um that was super nice of you. Um, but no, uh yeah, getting started in the animation industry. I think it was just the the typical path in terms of falling in love with the craft when I was young and then um going to animation school. Um that was a that was quite the journey, actually, just getting into school because I came from a small town and I had no clue really what like a portfolio was or what to include to like I knew everyone's like, oh, you gotta go to Sheridan, you gotta go to Sheridan. So I I applied to Sheridan um with no understanding of really what it takes to get into the animation program. Um so I did not get in right away. Um and I I actually have a few of my pieces and I could can see why. Um, but I got into art fundamentals. Um, so that kind of like that was a good stepping stone to like, okay, this is the direction that like the quality that I need to hit to actually make it into the program.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

A lot of people in my year, that was their path as well that they started in.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

I was gonna say it's it's very common. I know a lot of people, even from my generation, that took that path, and also because they came from small towns and oftentimes they went to schools that had no art teachers. Um, so they needed our fundamentals to kind of get them set up for entry and animation.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

And then I even afterwards, I remember applying, and I didn't get in after art fundamentals, but like I missed the mark by like I forget what it was, like a few points or something like that. They let you know your grade out of thing, and I still didn't make it. And I was gonna put in um you could apply again in the summer or something like that, like appeal it or something like that. So I was like, do I appeal this? Because I got ended up getting in in Windsor, which was like um, it was a mix of 2D and 3D. It was called tradition tradigital animation. They were marketing it as not traditional, tradigital animation. So I was like, ah, like I can do like 3D and I can do 2D. Um, so I was just like, you know, I I have the offer, I'm just gonna go do this. So I did it was a three-year program. So I did that uh in Windsor.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Were you living in Windsor at the time?

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Yeah, so I I just uh I was in they had um a residence there, so I just lived in Windsor for three years, went to school there. And that way I I don't think I took animation as serious, like I didn't know how hard it was gonna be to get into the industry. I thought like every career you just go to school and you finish your degree and you come out and you you have a job, and like I didn't really understand the the struggles. And I think also I was kind of I felt like I was I didn't realize till afterwards, but like I felt like I was a big fish in a in a small pond kind of thing where I was I was doing well for my class, um, but you don't realize the talent that's out there, like when you get students from Sheridan and Ringling and you're competing with all these these people. Um so when I finished at St. Clair, I I was having trouble finding work. Like I'd find like little contracts here and there, and but to the point where like I I wouldn't say I gave up, but like to to make money consistently, like in the summer, like I was working with my dad doing construction. And um it wasn't until like I I kind of got comfortable with it. Like I was just like, oh, you know, this is you know, I'm making a good living, and um, you know, I can do contract work with animation here and there. Um, and then it wasn't until my mom kind of gave me a kick in the pants. She's like, Sheridan has an advanced character animation program, it's one year, you're gonna apply to it, and you're you're gonna go. And I was like, Mom, they don't take any people. It's like I think it was like 16, 17 people they took into the program at the time. Oh wow. And yeah, it was so I was just like, okay, whatever. Uh so I I worked. Um my mom told my dad, she's like, he's not he's not working the the next like two months, he's working on his demo reel to get into this program. Um, so I literally like treated it like a job, and I just like created a new um demo reel to get into the program, and luckily I got in.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

Yeah, how lucky is it that you had your boss slash daddy?

SPEAKER_01 5:44

So I was very, very, very lucky. Um and he actually gave me a sit-down sit-down talk to that was a little motivational slash like heartbreaking at the same time. And like it was just like I remember, so we used to like um he used to pour concrete footings for houses, and um, we were putting the walls up for the concrete to go in, and there was another worker on the other side, and he didn't latch uh the wall right, so all the concrete came pouring out, and it was like ruining the house, and um everybody had left for the day, so it was just me and my dad, and we had to try and like prop up this wall by ourselves, and all this concrete was coming out, and we fixed it. We had the engineer come by and uh everything was okay, but we were just it was August, and we were just like sweating bullets. Oh wow, and um we were just dying on the side of this house, and I went to you know, around the corner to get us Gatorades, and I came back and he sat down, he's like, I do not want you to take over this company for me. He's like, I do not want this life for you. He's like, I want you to go and and you know, do what you need to do. He's like, it's like I wanted to be a pilot when I grew up. He's like, but like I did what I needed to do to to make to make money, right? Um, and that was like, whoa, like, you know, when when your dad sets you to sit you down and has a talk like that with you.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

Um that's a really unusual story, also to hear. Like, I remember hearing a lot of people telling me that like my parents were like, you can't be an artist, it's yeah, there's no way to make a career. Like when people had to like defy their parents to be animators, so it's really interesting. Yeah, that your dad was like, This'll be a better life for you.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

That's that that was totally me. But I mean, shout out to your dad and your mom, like to push you to get into this career.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

I I gotta say, like, I uh the backbone to my like entire career has has been my family. Like they've even my sister, like everybody, like everyone never questioned me going into the arts. Like, yep, that's what you want to do, um, go for it. Yeah, that's incredible. Um, so yeah, I a hundred percent have my family think about that. Um and then yeah, after that, it was kind of like just I I I kind of took off after that. It was just kind of I got into the advanced, you know, character animation program at Sheridan, and I just like I just worked. I just like I didn't sleep for that year, I just did as well as I could. And you know, the the goal at the end of the year was you know the the industry day where you kind of you know have all the studios come in and kind of um you know offer you jobs if they're think you're good enough or jobs are available. So uh that was kind of how I gave it uh got into the industry. I had um uh industry day and then actually my first offer came from Blue Sky. Um, but at the time I think you needed a degree to go over to the States, um, and I didn't have that, I just had the the um my animation um diploma. So I don't think um or you needed like three or five years in the industry to be able to go over, so that's it.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Visa requirements, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yeah. Um, so that's what happened there, but then um I interviewed a few other places and then got some offers and I settled on um on Nelvana, and then so Nelvana was your first job. Nelvana was my my first job, and uh I think I was there for four years, super comfy, comfortable. Um there was a little like dry spell in terms of like animation work, but luckily um I knew how to model, so they threw me on modeling for six months. So it was very like I was just holding on by the like seat of my pants, just in terms of like I don't know how to do much, but like I can model props and do several rigging and they kept me on for that, knowing that more animation work was coming down the line. Um, so yeah, that was my first.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

So I know uh Nel Van is quite a or used to be quite an established older company in Canada. Um, were was there a lot of support for for younger people like coming on? Was there like mentorship, or was it just like you you get it done sort of thing?

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Yeah, you just dove in. I d I remember my first shot was um somebody who just like left the show and didn't tell like they left for another company or something, and they didn't finish their quota or their shots and they were already behind. And my first first scene, I remember sweating, I thought I was gonna be fired, um, was like a food fight scene, and it was multiple characters throwing food, and I think set up constraints, and you're working at you know 45 seconds a week. And um, it was it was bad.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

Um that's really uh into the fire.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Oh my goodness. It was but at the same time, like nobody was like, hurry up, you need to get this done. Like nobody was pressuring me like that, but as a first shot for a junior, like that was that was a lot.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Pretty intense, yeah. But luckily, uh oops sorry. Sorry, I was just meant to ask what show was that if you don't mind me asking. I'm just kidding. Mike the night. Ah, Mike the Night.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

Oh, I remember that show.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Yeah. Um, so it was yeah, it was pretty intense. But luckily, I had a great late um Ben Pinkney, yeah. Um was my lead. I don't know if you know him, but he's a great animator, just a great guy as well. I still catch up um with him for drinks and stuff. Um but he was just like, I still go to him to this day whenever I need like career advice or just like even shot advice. Um, but he was my lead, and he's like just let me know everything was gonna be okay and would come over. I had so many questions. He pretty much lived beside me for the first like three months of the show, just like helping me out with everything. So I was lucky that they had great people working there. Um I got comfortable pretty fast and learned a lot.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

And were they uh pretty consistent with keeping you on? Uh Nelvana was like one of the only places I remember like uh people were full-time employees. Were you a full-time employees?

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Like I yeah, it was a full-time well, it was so you had to work there two years consistently, like contract-based to be considered full-time. So if they kept you on for two years straight without like a gap, you were considered full-time. At least I think that yeah, that was it. Um, so I was yeah, I was working for two years straight, then I became full-time, and then yeah, there, like I said, there was that dry spell of like um where I had to do modeling for a little bit. Um, but then yeah, right back onto animation.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Actually, if you don't mind me asking, um, because it it feels like your career path has been very distinct. Like animation is your the biggest thing about you. Did you always know you wanted to be an animator? Like, did you ever think about getting into design first? Maybe as you were trying to enter, you know, get get the education in animation, or even your first job, had you thought about different disciplines, or were you always like, nah, I gotta be an animator?

SPEAKER_01 13:25

I think I always wanted to be an animator, even if I didn't understand what it was in terms of like when I like I know a lot of people are like, oh, I also want to be an animator because I like I like to draw and stuff. Yeah, I that was I I think that was the same for me. Um, but then like I I think I I think I fell in love with the different aspects of animation at different points in my life. Like when I grew up, like my one of my oldest friends was also my my next door neighbor, and uh we used to go over to his his place and just shoot like old videos, like doing movies and and stuff like that, right through like grade school. So I that's like the character performance side that I think I fell in love with when I was smaller, and I that stayed with me. And then there's also the I loved animated movies, so there's a drawing aspect of being an animator in there as well. Um, and then like when I got into like high school, I met my other friend, Mike, who kind of introduced me to like film in general. I remember the first time that I saw um the usual suspects, and he was the one who like he's like, dude, you gotta watch this movie. Like uh that's the the first time I was like wow, I'd buy a movie, and then just kind of like really fell in love with like cinema. I think I remember like going for my dad. I was like, Dad, we gotta go rent this movie, it's amazing, you gotta sit down and watch it with me. And I was just from then on, I I I was searching for like different movies that kind of hit me the way that that film did. And uh, so that's like another aspect of being an animator that it all kind of came together and I think helped form my so what led you to animation specifically?

SPEAKER_03 15:22

Like I like it sounds like you're really inspired by cinematic filmmaking, but what was the animation side of that that really attracted you?

SPEAKER_01 15:31

I think it was just the the character performance stuff. I feel like that's the the one piece where you really get to put yourself into the film. Um you get some kind of voice. Like there's a way to have um like a character designer can still have a voice, and um, or storyboard artists can still have a voice in making what are their their choices, but for me, that was the easiest way for me to put a piece of myself in into film was character performance. So yeah, I think, like I said, like there's different aspects that kind of formed that decision, but I think it started pretty young. I think I delved into like tried to fool around with kind of being a character designer in school because I did like the the aspect of drawing, but I just it I wasn't that strong in in design, I don't think. Um I was a I was a lot better at um performance stuff and and animating and so yeah, that's uh the the revenue.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

So um can you tell us a bit about how you got into feature films? Because like I I think uh if you've worked in the industry for a little bit or in television, say in Canada, you know that there is like a bridge to cross to make it into feature animation. There's there's definitely a barrier uh to get down that path. Uh how did you end up uh like I was it blue sky? Was your first feature?

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Yeah, yeah, it was blue sky, and it was honestly like I know it's so cliche to to say, but it's honestly like you have to have the talent at the at the right time, like you have to have the skill set to actually like um be able to to make it in there, but then also you have to get it in front of the right eyes at the right time. Like you'd be the most talented anime in the world, but like if they don't have a spot for you or the you know the the right person isn't seeing your work, like the odds are against you already. So yeah, mine was super lucky. I didn't even apply, uh apply. It was do you remember Tabaluga when we were working on that? Uh yeah, so I think it was right after Tabaluga.

SPEAKER_03 17:38

I think it's called something else officially. I think it's called Lily the Ice Princess or something.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Okay, well, uh Lily the Ice Princess or Tabaluga. Yeah, um, I think I think we're kind of it was kind of dried up after that film. Like we were doing, I think we were doing a pitch for another film or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 17:59

That was at Awesome Town.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah, there wasn't too much going on at the time. I remember talking to Sean, our supervisor or head of animation.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

Um I think he was part owner as well. Like he was he was yeah, but he was a great guy to work with too.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Yeah, yeah. So he I was just like, listen, I want to keep my animation skills sharp. So, like, do you mind if I just like you know practice animating? And he's like, Yeah, man, do whatever whatever you need. Like, as long as you're getting your work done, if there's downtime, go for it. Um so is the 11 second club still around?

SPEAKER_04 18:39

I don't know, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Anyways, so that that would there's a competition, I think it was around December or something like that. So I was like, ah, you know what? I'll when I go to work and I have downtime, I'll I'll work on this little animation for um the 11 second club. And um, I was lucky enough to I ended up winning uh for that month. And you know, it was a nice little treat. You get like uh feature animator to kind of look over your work. And then I think it was like a couple weeks later, that blue sky caller emailed me. Um, and they're like, hey, we saw your your animation on 11 Second Club, and um, we also looked into you a little bit and we saw your uh troll hunters reel, and um you want to know if you'd be interested in interviewing for an animation position.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Well, that is pretty nice.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah, so it was it was I remember like I thought it was a like a joke at first, um and I was just in shock. Um I was um like anybody would be kinda um I can't believe just the the luck that just happened. But it was um it was a little bit of a process in terms of like um you know figuring out the whole situation and moving there uh for a little bit. But yeah, that was that was what it took to get in for me.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

It was just honestly luck, um, you know, getting it in front of the right eyes and uh what to say people don't realize how much timing and luck uh play into it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

But also the fact that you did that, right? You still had to put your skill and your talent into doing that uh competition. That's that's what afforded you at least that first step, and then obviously the timing and the luck.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah, I think I I think that's also where some I think some people that are trying to break in to feature and say you're just working on like um like preschool. Like I know even when I was at Nelvana, well, as soon as my workday was done, I would go home and I would still animate personal projects. Um, because I I knew that the places that I wanted to go, the the stuff that I was doing at Nelvana wasn't gonna get me to the to the next level, like it would just get me like a another parallel opportunity that Nelvana is giving me.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Um yeah, I kind of plateau in TV because you have only so much time to do it.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Exactly. And it's not that there's not talented people in TV animation, just like you're lit, like when you're doing 45 seconds a week or or um you know, a minute a week or something like that, it's a lot different than doing five seconds of animation on your own, right? Um, so you if you're not getting the opportunity to do that at work, you have to find opportunity or make opportunity for yourself to to get a a real to go to the next level. And that's luckily what I did.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Yeah, it's not to say that you aren't getting a skill set in TV. Like I think going from TV to feature could be an ad. Because you know how to work efficiently. Um so that can be really useful for especially the amount of revisions you do in feature, at least that's been my experience. You're just reworking, reworking, reworking stuff. And it's not you're not necessarily spending uh a ton of time all the time redoing stuff, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:22

100%. And it it I think that's honestly one of my uh best assets is is my speed. Um and I think that came from from TV animation, right? Like you gotta think on your feet, like you don't have all day to come up with an idea and do a week's worth of of reference and all this stuff. Like you've gotta hurry up and pump out an idea and try to make it look good in the in the same time.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

So um yeah, I was always really impressed. I was super always very amazed at your speed and quality level. It was impressed. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Yeah, thank you. Um, yeah, so I think it it's once you combine those two things where you can have the speed and then um combine that with quality of feature animation, like you can um really find a good path for for your career, I find.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

So, what was it like uh living in the States and working? Like what were the big like what did you find was the biggest difference from let's say working in the Toronto uh scene?

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Um what not too much to tell you the truth. Other than like getting your paperwork together to go to the states, um it was really nice. They they took care of all my accommodations, like I didn't have to um find an apartment or anything. They put us in like a really nice hotel, they took care of like our breakfasts and our dinners.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

Well, that's a difference from working in Toronto, they're not doing that here.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yeah. There, they were, you know, they they offered me something um lower than what I would take in Canada, but at the same time, like I went there as like I told my girlfriend that the well, my wife now, uh, I told her, like, I'm I'm going there to go to school. Like, I am I knew that like this was my one opportunity that like my foot's in the door. I just have to kind of prove myself, get a good feature reel, and then hopefully like more feature work will will come. So I literally like I felt like I was in college again. Like I went there, I worked, I would do overtime. Like people would be going to like out to see shows on uh on Broadway and stuff. I'd be like, uh no, I'm gonna stick behind and do some work and where was uh sorry, where was Blue Sky again?

SPEAKER_03 24:42

I can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

So it was it in can it was in Connecticut, but they had us in White Plains, New York, which is like it was weird, like uh like we literally like would cross the the line every day going to work, and that was another thing that they they would bust us into work every day from the the hotel, which was great.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

Wait, were you living in a hotel?

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Yeah, oh yeah. Okay, all the everybody that was um hired for that project, they had us all living, it was like a huge, like it was pretty much an apartment, like it was a huge, it was bigger than my apartment, actually. Like it was a bigger kitchen, it was like a huge bedroom, a huge living room, like it was it was like a condo. Um nice. So it was it was very nice. Um, and then like I said, um I got paid a little less than what I was getting in Canada, but at the same time, like because of the exchange exchange rate, it was totally ended up being great. So, and then you're not spending much when you're there, like I said, like all your meals are covered, um your housing's covered, like it was it was a great setup and uh great opportunity. But yeah, in terms of like working in the states, everybody was super nice at the studio. Um yeah, nothing really different in terms of that.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

So, one of the things I noticed when I were went to the states and worked was not that it, you know, we had more time to do things, but that when I was afforded more time to do things, I had to fill that knowledge gap of how to fill that time. Uh like in TV, I know this is how much time I should spend on these items. But when you had more time, I was like, oh, what do I, what do I do with this time, right? And so that was the learning curve for me when I worked in the States was like, was like absorbing what what all those people had to teach me. It was a huge learning curve, I felt, uh, in terms of I guess not working uh in the US necessarily, but just working in feature versus television.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah, that's a good that's a hundred percent like a great point. Um, I I guess I didn't take that in terms of like just working in the States, but yeah, just making the shift to feature, I definitely had that problem too. I remember I did like a character test. Um they gave you a test in terms of like seeing what you're good at or what you want to do, because they just give you the character, the main character, and they're like animate him doing something. So like if you did an action shot, but they're like, oh, this guy probably likes action shots. Yeah, or if this guy did an acting shot, then he likes performance stuff. Um so I remember just like pumping that out, like I think it was like a day or two, and I gave it to supervisors. He's like, Why'd like why do you like you have like a week to do this? He's like, What you can spend more time on it if you want. I was like, Oh, okay. So I just like brought it back to my desk, and then I was just like looking around and I would start asking people to to look at my work or um to see what to concentrate on, and um I think I started to learn how much like design mattered in a character and like keeping the mod model and um really paying attention to like what like you can have a good performance, but like does the performance actually fit that character? Like, um so about you know, maybe you can put research into like um who's actually the voice actor, what are some actual references that you can look at that you could pull um to do better?

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Yeah, what are other people doing? What's been established? What can I build on?

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Exactly. So there's there's all that stuff you gotta look at.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

Yeah, and that's not something you're encouraged to think about in television at all.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

So I think there's not enough time. There isn't enough time. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Like oftentimes, like preschool, especially, it's kind of, you know, I hate to use the term, but it's kind of reduced to kind of generic acting and acting that kind of reads very quickly and easily, especially for a preschool audience. Um but oftentimes the acting is fairly similar across all the characters.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

Yeah, that's the hardest thing is getting consistency on a television show like that. Where in in future films, they're also thinking, at least this is my experience, the they're thinking about it on a character level, on a on a story level more than we would on a television show. I don't know if that's ex your experience as well. Um, I also wanted to ask you about uh layoffs. Because we we recently did an episode on layoffs uh where John and I talked about it, uh like studio closures and things like that. And I know that you were part of the Blue Sky uh shutdown. I was wondering if you could talk a bit about that, like what that experience was like, uh and like how you moved past it.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Oh, man. I was discussing this with my friends the other day, and I I was everyone was making fun of me that like maybe you're cursed because I think literally, uh so is that Nelvana, that's no longer around. Is that awesome town? That's no longer around.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Okay, but then I'm cursed because I've been plenty of places that are I think we are all cursed.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah, and then there was um so sorry, Awesome Town Ark, uh, you were there as well. Um Blue Sky, which I was there for, and then also uh Tangent. I was there when Tangent went down as well.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Um it's such to be there when it happens. Like I was at Tangent before before it happened, so I didn't have to experience it, thankfully.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Yeah, I was it's funny because I so what happened was uh Blue Sky. I was actually gonna go back to Blue Sky uh for pneumona. Uh we were in the process, so it was during COVID, and we were trying to figure out um like remote work, we're like in that whole conversation, and then yeah, then the news broke, somebody told me, and then so I asked HR, and they're like, Oh no, I haven't heard anything, everything's perfectly fine. And then literally, like I said, like a couple days after. And I went through a little bit of a panic attack because you know, it's just so I was so used to like if I'm at a company, like I've I've never had real downtime or anything like that. I've been consistently working. Um, so I was just like, oh man, what's good going on here? Um, but I was lucky because at the time I was still um I was at Jam Field at the time, actually. Um, so after I finished my first contract at Blue Sky, um I told him I was like, before I come back for Momona, I just I like I haven't seen my girlfriend in like it's been an eight, 10 month gap that we've only seen each other like every month or maybe twice a month. And like I miss my family as well. Um, so I was like, I just want to go home to Toronto for like give me a few months uh and then we'll work out this whole mnemona thing. Um so I was at Jam Field, and that's when COVID hit and everybody started working remote. Um so luckily, like I was still at Jam Field, and they knew that I was planning to leave to go back to Blue Skies, but they were just like they were like, Yeah, just stay as long as you want, and when you go back, you go back.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Um, that's a nice buffer then.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Yeah, so like I didn't freak out too much, but like um, like there was still like I I saw my career going in a different direction and I wanted to continue to to work in feature, but then um because like it was such a big announcement that blue sky went down, like I had people that were at Sony um reach out to me and they're like, Hey, like, do you want a job over here? Um wow, so I I was lucky I was lucky again.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

How long have you been at Sony now? I I I feel like we should talk about Sony because that's like what you're doing right now, and working on K-pop. And I did you work on Goat as well?

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Yeah, so I so I went to Sony uh for my very first film there was Hotel Transylvania 4.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Oh cool, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Um, so that that is such a good show to practice using like all of Sony's tools, like they have so many awesome tools, and like you have to sculpt like every pose on hotel Transylvania shows, right? Uh just because they get into stuff like yeah, so like you get thrown into the fire, like you learn everything. Um, so that was my first show. Um and then were you working from Toronto? Like have you worked with a lot of yeah, this whole time I've I've only ever worked remotely from Toronto.

SPEAKER_03 33:28

Um it's pretty nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah, I've I'm very lucky in that that sense too. Um, so hotel tea, and then I was still like doing contract work. Um well, not doing contract work, but like I wasn't really like a rollover contract like I am now. Um oh, I was talking to Tangent because they were offering me like a full-time like position. I didn't have to worry about like contracts anymore or anything. I was like, this is great, it's in Toronto, I get a full-time gig, like I don't I get benefits, all this stuff. It's a feature studio, it's doing awesome. So I told Sony, I was like, you know what, thank you. But I I'm gonna leave after um I'm done hotel uh tea. And uh so I came back to Tangent and uh everything was great, and we were working on the Monkey King.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

Were you working in Blender? Uh no, we were tangent was no blender when I worked there.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Yeah, yeah. No, they switched over to Maya just for that production. So yeah, I was there for I think like two months, maybe three. And like words started getting around, like, hey, this isn't like something's going on here. Uh so just in case, I contacted Sony again and I was like, you know, just a chance, like, is there room for me to to come back? And they're like, Yeah, like if you want to come back, we have another project. And I think it was literally nice too. Yeah, it was literally, I think it was like a week, two weeks later in Tangent, like they had an announcement for us, so like, you know, like I forget the exact reasons and everything, but they ended up shutting down. And uh I was lucky that the week after that I started back in at Sony, and I've been there ever since. So I think I went right back onto the seed, the sea beast after that.

SPEAKER_03 35:28

Oh, that was like you worked on that too. That was great. I I was really well animated. I remember loving it.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Yeah, that was I was super excited to to get on that. It was I think it was more in my realm of animation, it was very like um reference-based, which I I love to use reference. So um I felt like that was like uh is that a Sony thing as well?

SPEAKER_03 35:49

Like it's and I've seen a lot of the like stuff press that Sony's put out, which there's a lot, looks like a lot of animators doing reference. I know Disney does that too as well, but is that sort of a policy for animators to be doing reference?

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Not at all. No, no, it's not uh it's just they want to see, I think with a lot of feature studios, they just want to see whatever your plan is for your shop. Um and I think that makes it easier on everybody on um the animators to to the supervisors to the directors. Um and it just as long as you have a plan, like there's some people who just do amazing 2D passes, they're usually like more action-based animators.

SPEAKER_03 36:30

Um, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Yeah, my my personal workflow that I like to do the the most is shooting reference, just because there's so many quirky things that you end up doing in your reference that you never think about. Um and it's just a great way to throw it in front of the directors and get quick buy-offs to the point where like sometimes like you'll you'll um act out like an entire sequence as a team. Um we did that at Blue Sky as well. Yeah, we'll get like That's fun. Yeah, so you like you'll see a whole um uh sequence paths of just animators, like everything working, and it it's awesome to show the the directors, um, because they can point out.

SPEAKER_03 37:15

Are you then yeah, are you then locked in though? Like, is are then they then like well this wasn't in your reference, so you can't make this change here, or are they still flexible?

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Oh, they're a hundred percent flexible. Stuff always ends up changing, even though they love your reference, once they see it applied to a character, there's always like um stuff that's changing. I don't I don't think I've ever I've I've had a few shots that are pretty close to my reference, um, but there's always always stuff that's changing. Um, but it's just a general a general buy-off with the with the reference pass, it seems like. Um but it's I find it such a a helpful tool. And uh yeah, like I I I don't I don't think it's like an industry uh like standard kind of thing. I think it just it's become very popular just because like you get so much out of it, like I said, with the nuance of your acting choices, and then like it's a quick way to to get director approval.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Yeah, well, when I worked at Tangent when they first started doing their feet first feature, I remember that they set a room aside for us to do reference, and then over the course of the sh the project, more and more equipment ended up in that room, and we were like in the corner shooting reference.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

I was like, Yeah, people start bringing in swords and medicine balls, and yeah, it's and putting up like green like stuff on the wall so you can like chroma key stuff out and like things like that.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

And that's it.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

You become a VFX editor.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

Well, uh, we're sort of coming to the end of our time now. Um, and there's a question we like to ask a lot of our guests, um, which is uh we I feel like we may have covered a little bit, but like what's a period in your career or your life uh where you you're quite uh proud or happy with uh a tough period that you overcame. Um maybe a challenge, personal challenge or work challenge. Work challenge.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

I think just the whole thing. It doesn't have to be work. Oh, it doesn't have to oh no, it could be personal, yeah. Personal challenges. I think not ha so I lost my dad in 2016. Um and that was thank you, appreciate that. Um but I think not having him around to see me get the feature, I think that's that was difficult. Um yeah. So like he like I said, the biggest supporter always told me to take chances, like even when I left Nelvana to go to ARC, I was super scared because I was like, I have it so comfy here in Nelvana, like it's just so easy, and it's like uh I don't have to worry about contracts. And then ARC made me an offer, like, hey, we just come over here. And I just remember being so scared, my dad's like, just go take it. Like, how are you gonna get closer to what you want to do if you don't take that leap? So if it wasn't for conversations like that and motivations like that, I wouldn't be where I am. So it's still difficult to this day that you know I'm doing all of this stuff that he would have been proud of, and he's not around to see it. Well, he he could be seeing it. I I hope he is, but um, he's the one person that yeah, he's the one person that I really uh I I wanted to see and it for him to see this. And uh it's funny because I remember at the beginning of my career, I was very like, uh, you know, I'm gonna show everybody that you know that doubted me that you know, I'm I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna prove everybody wrong. I'm gonna prove everybody wrong, and almost like a chip on my shoulder. But as like as my career goes on and my life goes on, I I find it being like the reverse where I'm thinking, like, I want to prove everybody right. All the people that that told me that I could do it, I want to do it for them. Because all those people that said, like, oh, he's never gonna make it, and all this, like all those people faded away. Like, I don't talk to those people anymore, like, right, yeah, yeah. So my motivations have have changed in terms of like I'm very happy with what I do, and I hope I'm making you know my family proud of about what I'm doing, and I really don't care about proving people wrong that told me I couldn't do it. So that I I think I got a little off topic there, but yeah, that's no, that's really lovely.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

I think uh the purpose of that question is to integrate what is our career and our life, you know, like those things are never really fully separate. Like I also lost uh my father in 2014, and I know it had such a big impact on how I pro uh proceeded with my career as well. So, you know, you can't really separate those things, they're part of of the whole experience.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that as well. It I know it's a it's a typical your world gets turned upside down. So, but at the same time, you start to see uh you start to see a lot more uh like beauty in the world play through with um how precious everything is.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

Yeah, you start to reevaluate what's valuable in your life.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Yeah, 100% agree.

SPEAKER_03 42:30

Yeah. Well, I don't uh want to keep you too much longer, but thank you so much for doing this chat with us. It was really lovely. Uh I have followed your career a little bit over the years, but it's been a pleasure to see how well you've done and to see your success uh over at Sony as well.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Oh, thank you so much. Um, it was great catching up and thank you for having me on. It was a blast.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

Thank you, Eric. Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 42:55

Well, to our guests, uh, talk to you next time.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Uh the Animation Career Community podcast is created and hosted by Taty McDonald and Donald Trump.