Animation Career Community
The Animation Career Community Podcast where we answer your questions on how to grow, maintain and transform your animation career at every stage.
Animation Career Community
ACC Podcast - Defining Leadership - John and Kathy
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode of the Animation Career Community Podcast, John and Kathy discuss what Leadership means in the animation landscape. What kind of management roles exist in the creative space, how do they differ or overlap with the roles of individual creators. What makes a great motivator when it comes to the conversation in the commercial world of filmmaking? John and Kathy both share their personal experiences with guiding teams on large to small scale productions.
Welcome to the Animation Career Community Podcast, where we answer your questions on how to grow, maintain, and transform your animation career at every stage.
SPEAKER_01I'm your host Scott, and I'm your host Kathy.
SPEAKER_00In today's episode, we chat about what leadership roles are like in the animation industry. How do people get into these roles? And what are the different expectations and experiences you can have managing artists and running a project? Hang on to your seats. This is going to be a good one.
SPEAKER_01Well, uh, thanks for joining me again today, John, for this exciting topic.
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, thank you for having me on. Finally.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, I think there's some topics we want to cover in this. Uh, but I maybe we could start with uh like what leadership roles mean uh in animation uh specifically. I think because they can be different, uh studio to studio, um, and the expectations can be really different. Um so maybe you can talk about uh what you think animation roles mean uh in leadership positions.
SPEAKER_00I think um, you know, most commonly, and yeah, it it does vary. And I think leadership, um, you know, the definition of leadership can vary as well from one business to another. And in animation, I would typically, I think for me, the common roles of leadership in animation would be like a producer, a director, supervisor. We have team leads as well. You know, we may have a layout lead, we may have animation leads, and oftentimes they are more experienced members of that team that can also help mentor and guide the team uh in coordination with the actual supervisor or that particular department director as well. Um, I think oftentimes leadership roles in animation, as I've kind of alluded already, their roles with members that are generally more experienced. Um, they can look to be looked upon as a mentor or a leader in the traditional sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think the big difference for me, experience-wise with managing teams, is that the conversation of leadership, what does that mean, does not come up very much.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Then those roles exist, there's expectations, but a lot of the time it's really left unsaid what that means.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so you're you're following the lead of whoever was in that role previously. Maybe if you're an artist or you've been promoted, you you start doing what the previous person did or what the studio has established already as as what the expectations are. But uh in all the leadership roles I've been hired onto, it really has been left up to me to set those uh bounds, those those uh like what what is my role? Um and for that reason, I find that the experience of working with different leads or managers or directors, even producers, is really different across the board.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. That's I mean, that's so true. And I think what's common actually, it's not just in animation, but in a lot of businesses, what does happen is someone steps out of that leadership role, whether they're promoted to a different role, uh, maybe uh laterally they've moved into a different department, or perhaps they even leave a company and then someone else gets promoted to fill that role. And oftentimes they may understand some of the technical aspects of that role, like, okay, you've got to just track this work and guide your team and whatnot. But oftentimes um there is also a lack of managerial training to step into a role like that. I think that's a very common thing among a lot of businesses. And I feel like more so in animation, like me growing up and growing up through my career in animation, when I was promoted, whether within a project or outside of the project from one company to another, um, I'll be honest, I I rarely received any kind of training.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You kind of learn on the job. You you watch and you basically you may shadow your previous supervisor, maybe knowingly or unknowingly, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, which I think is pretty typical uh because you learn from that previous supervisor or previous leader.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, my experience, uh all the knowledge I've gained in my leadership positions have been on the job making mistakes or uh following in what previous what I observed as an artist looking into that role, how other people did it, maybe things that I liked, things I didn't like. Um for that reason, it it can be tough uh as an artist because your lead may expect different things to be their responsibility, and that means that some things are your responsibility. So that can you obviously have to feel that out. I've always felt that that's a real detriment to how animation works, that we don't have a more formal way of talking about role expectations. Yeah. Uh with artists, it's very clear you're like, or like you're an animator, you do the shots. You know, whether whatever is entailed around doing shots, you're also expected to do. But uh but managerial work, which is not just like tracking and keeping track of the creative uh goals of the project, but also like managing people. Managing people is is really what leadership roles are about.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, yeah. And that's and it's a tough thing to do. Like I don't want anyone to kind of come out of this particular episode of a podcast and feel like, okay, now I've got all the answers, right? Um, because leadership of of any sort is a very complicated role to take. It's a very complicated process to have to go through because you're dealing with so many different people. And everyone is unique, every situation is unique. Um, and kind of touching on what you just said, which is a very important thing to understand, is you know, when you're in a, let's call it a typical role, like a production role, perhaps you're an animator or a layout artist. I think roles like that that typically don't involve too much leadership or any at all. Um, I would say the responsibilities are, you know, for lack of a better term, more finite, right? Yeah. You have a daily responsibility to fulfill the work according to your role. You there's really all you have to do and really worry about. And that can be a lot of work on its own, obviously. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The goalposts are are more clearly defined for some.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Whereas with leadership, there is basically a more infinite amount of responsibilities. And not to say that it's completely overwhelming, but there are so many different angles you have to consider. And I think because of that, um, then that number of responsibilities, which can cover the guidance of the project, mentorship at times, work relationships, and even larger project duties overall. As for me as a director, you know, you really get to, you know, feel that you really understand that there's so many different aspects of a production. Um, and I think because of that, what I've learned over the years too is that it's not that a leader has fewer parameters. It's actually that a leader has a larger set of varying parameters, more moving targets in a sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and that's what makes leadership more complicated as well.
SPEAKER_01It can be more interpretive, right? So, you know, upper management may have a particular view of what successful leadership looks like uh compared to to like the crew you're managing. Um and while, you know, the goal is still to finish the project on time to make sure that everybody's doing what they need to do. Um, it can also be about the day-to-day operation of how well things are running as well. So, like, you know, it's not the destination, it's the uh the journey. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, but again, that's interpretive, right? Like that's my interpretation of what good leadership is. And I think that's where it can be really subjective. Someone's someone else's uh observation of managerial world is like, I tell you what to do, you do it, and that's it, right? Like that's that's a experience I've had as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think we've all probably been through that. Um, you know, at some point in our lives, whether it's or not, it's within animation or maybe another kind of work environment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. Well, maybe we could talk about how you got your first leadership position. I think that's where myself included, like I learned so much uh that first job. So uh managing people. Maybe you could talk about how what that looked like for you, how it happened.
SPEAKER_00Um, I think, you know, I guess off the top of my head, um, especially in animation, like I've had obviously as a student other jobs and I worked as a graphic designer for a little bit. But in in terms of animation, I would say my earliest recollection was when I started off in layout. Um, at some point I was uh asked to become an assistant layout supervisor. And I think for me, that was um it was kind of surprising, I think. And I think I will forward it by saying that I was still kind of young to the business. I had only been really a layout artist for maybe a couple years, um, probably less than three, if I recall correctly. So it's really not too long, but I guess I perform really well and they saw value in me, uh, which I do appreciate, obviously. And I think supervisors saw that in me. So I do very much appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01I think that's how it happens a lot of cases. Like that was my experience too. I was relatively young when I was promoted into animation director. And I think they look at it as, oh, this person's really successful as a creative, they're really efficient. Uh, or you know, there's other reasons too, like your buddies with somebody.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, that I mean, obviously that happens. We can talk a little bit about that later. But I think overall, like for me, and hopefully for a lot of people, um, what is recognized as your skill, um, you know, your your dedication to the project, um, and obviously an eye for what you're doing. Like skill is one thing, but having an eye for the project because um you understand the needs of the project, hopefully the needs of the team, the needs of the clients at the same time, right? This these are all these, oh pardon me. These are all the uh kind of the necessities that go into building and hopefully producing a successful project.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, maybe we can talk a bit later about like if you were going to promote somebody on your team uh now into a leadership role, what would you look for? Because it in my experience, it does seem to lean really heavily into the technical aspect uh when people get promoted.
SPEAKER_02It can, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, which, you know, I think that people do that because you're like, okay, well, you need this technical understanding for this role as well. It is an important part of a leadership role in animation. You do need to understand what you're doing. Uh so that has value. But I think that the it would be interesting to have a conversation about how would you spot somebody who's really good at communicating, who really has a skill talking to people and thinking proactively. Like those are there are a lot of other things that go into leadership that I feel like aren't necessarily looked at when they're you're you're hiring into those roles.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that in that, yeah, definitely a a different kind of conversation we have a little bit later.
SPEAKER_01But um, you know, I think that's do you think that's what they were seeing? Like whoever promoted you was seeing in in that uh layout. What was it? Assistant layout?
SPEAKER_00Yes, assistant layout supervised. Um possibly. I mean, since we're talking about it now, maybe we just talk about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let's none of us talk about this layer.
SPEAKER_00I think um, yeah, I think again, kind of what I said at the beginning, leadership is defined in so many different ways by circumstance, by situation, by project, by people. Um, and I think, you know, looking back on my career, perhaps these are things, some of the qualities of what they define as leadership is what they saw in me. And hopefully that was a good thing. Hopefully, I did portray some of those things. Um, and I think today, like looking at myself back then, I think my decisions would be a little bit different. Like if if I was me back then and I had to hire someone in a leadership position, my criteria would be similar, obviously. They need the skill, they need some of the technical precision. Yep. Um, but I think after all these years, I would skew that a little bit as well. Yes, as you said, they need some of that technical precision. They need to understand the details of that job because at any point they should be more or less able to jump in and fulfill some of that role. Now, um the one caveat I would say about that is like a director for my, you know, like myself, yeah, I can't necessarily jump into the lead modeling role and replace that person because that person has tons of amazing experience.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think you're making an excellent point, uh, which is like, yes, it really helps to understand a pipeline, a process and even aspects of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But the some of the best uh managers and leaders that I've worked under aren't the best artist, aren't the best technical person.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Because sometimes those people are really good at that one thing for a reason, uh, and not necessarily good at the all the other things that come along with it. Uh so yeah, I think it's a good point to make, which is like maybe that gets skewed too heavily when hiring into those positions. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I know like when we're looking through portfolios today, I mean, I'm always looking for hopefully the best of the best or the best available, right? And I can see that stuff happening in some portfolios and eventually as we interview people one-on-one and get to know them and talk to them. Um, so yeah, for me, I think the biggest difference between me back then and me today is yes, we consider obviously the best skills and the best talent. But as you also already alluded to, communication, you know, um, kind of what we look for in a leader isn't necessarily the best technically now. It's it's who can communicate and who can show the proper leadership qualities that can help guide a team. Because I think ultimately you can have someone that has all that technical ability, but if they don't have the right combination of leadership qualities, um sometimes that also involves some of those managerial skills, but someone that doesn't encompass the leadership qualities that can really guide a team, then it doesn't matter how good a team can be, it may cause, I don't want to say problems because it's not necessarily the case, but it's it can cause some issues, especially where communication is very important. And I think if you don't have the absolute best person in that leadership role, but you have a really strong team working with that leader, you can still produce some of the most amazing work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it can just change the experience of how hard or easy it is to get to that goal.
SPEAKER_00Um I think that's a dynamic, you know, you're generally looking for. You need someone that, you know, can be a good leader, has good skill, great skill, hopefully, and ideally some of the best, um, but knows how to engage and empower a strong team or even a team that has varying skill levels.
SPEAKER_01And but this is the thing, like this is not something most people are gonna know day one on a job. Right. Like that you there's a potential that you're gonna be good at that.
SPEAKER_02Of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But my experience in my first AD role, uh, animation director role in stop motion, um was I had zero guidance. I it was just like here's just follow what you've seen done.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh, and then you know, I think I have a strong ability to ask questions and to problem solve and to like seek out those answers myself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it can be extremely overwhelming if you were just left on your own. And then I made mistakes on that first job. I wish I'd had some guidance from somebody to talk about the the leadership aspect of it. Like a big mistake I made in my first role. And I and I wouldn't say it was a huge like overall failure. I just think that a big problem that I had at the beginning was uh taking on too much work, like not understanding what delegation meant.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh, because those that's the best way to to be a leader is to be able to trust your team to do the role that they are are doing, but also to guide them in that role. And I think when I first started, I A was very stressed about it because I felt every every tiny aspect of how things were being done was my responsibility.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that's just not possible, like for one person to do everything. So when I became more successful as a leader, it was when I began to trust my team, but also I understood where to put my energy to get those things accomplished. Like if somebody's struggling in one area, being able to see uh, okay, here this is where I can spend some time individually versus uh like big picture solutions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think for me, a lot of that um comes down to being able to problem solve, right? Um, because every project, again, whether it's animation or some other business, um, it comes down to problem solving. The problem we're solving in animation is there's a story idea we need to translate to film, essentially, to visuals. And that in itself is problem solving. Everything we do essentially can be broken down to problem solving. And I think a good leader um, you know, takes all these traits, uh, which I'll get to in a sec, like kind of what I would kind of see as important traits of a hopefully a good leader. Um, but uses those again, empowers a team to help problem solve the needs to produce that project and that series or the film, the motion picture, or whatever you want to call it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's a good word, empowers the team.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh that's also how I feel good leadership should be represented. Um, I think it's not about depending on what role you're in. I think if you're in like obviously a director role or a creative art director role, it is about imposing a certain vision of creativity on the project as well. But then as you go down in those leadership roles managing teams, it's less about that and it's more about a cohesive vision that isn't necessarily yours.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But even at the top, sometimes, like especially with directors, I think a lot of people forget that, especially in TV animation or series work. Um, oftentimes the director is not the creator of that project, right? So there will be a showrunner who chances are they are the creator. Um they may be a writer as well, but if it's not the director's vision, the director, you know, also has to work to the vision of that creator. I think that's something most people will need to kind of remind themselves of. And to a certain extent, every role, even above the line, even a line producer and a producer kind of has to work to that vision because that's that initial vision and the core, the core and the heart of that particular show or story is what got the green light to do this production. So you need to kind of be hopefully true to that, maintain that vision, and hopefully everyone understands that they each have, you know, and I guess this goes to empowering everybody, no matter where they are. Empower everybody to use their skill to meet that vision of the project.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so much of that is just communication, right? Yeah. You have to communicate that vision, whether it's yours or or somebody else's or the projects, and be excited about it too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And communication goes across the board. Like for me, and actually speaking of communication, because we've already touched on it a few times, um, like to me, the most common leadership qualities um are like communication. Obviously, one of the biggest things, the ability to be able to hopefully speak with clarity and purpose, you know, get the ideas across, get that vision across. Um, but in communication, it's also listening so others feel heard. Right. And that goes across the boards, not just a director, not just a producer. Um, you know, it's everybody from top to bottom. You need to be able to communicate and listen. Yeah, listen.
SPEAKER_01Listening is not just about like, oh, I'm listening to someone else's thoughts on this. Right. You're listening to hear, did they understand me?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Did we, did we align on what the plan forward is? Yeah. And if you're not listening to that person, that person isn't communicating back at you. There's no way for you to know until the product is done, right? Exactly. And then it might be wrong, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And even sometimes, like when you go through like daily responsibilities, and as a director, I, you know, I still have to remind myself of this, but when I get work in, let's say, like, you know, layout passes or animation passes, um, I look at the amount of work that they do and I look at what's been delivered. And there's a part of me like, I'll obviously watch everything through, make my notes, but I'll also hopefully consider. You know, the amount of work and the challenges. And sometimes there are mistakes, obviously.
SPEAKER_01There always will be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I'll look at those and I'll interpret that as is there something the team needs? Is there something that team member actually needs? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Where did I? What can I change about what I'm doing that's going to alleviate that mistake potentially?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it's clarity, right? It's like, oh, you know, I wasn't clear in my launch note. Oh, yes, you do have to watch out for that. Maybe I took something for granted. Maybe I just completely, you know, it went over my head and I just didn't think about it. And then you get it back and you see, oh, right. It could be interpreted that way.
SPEAKER_01Or you make an assumption that like everybody knows this one thing that I know.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we've talked a bit about communicating with uh the team, but obviously when you get into a leadership role, depending on how high up you go, you end up talking with different parts of the production. Uh you end up talking with clients sometimes directly with uh a studio management. Um I I think you probably have more experience with that than I do. Uh I have a little bit, but how do you uh view that kind of communication um as a in a leadership role where you're sort of in the middle?
SPEAKER_00Um, I guess communicating with kind of the production's side. Um I think it's it's similar. There, you still need to speak with clarity and purpose, right? You've been brought on the project, whether you're a director or again, like um animation lead, animation director, whatever. You still have to kind of speak with that clarity and purpose. And oftentimes it is translating, I think, what is on screen or in a rush. Let's we'll just call them rushes or whatever, um, to clarify a note from a client. Like for me, a lot of times it is that a client may be confused by something they see, or maybe they just want clarity on oh, when we get to the next phase or stage, will it look like this or will we have this? Will that be clear to the audience, right? And again, this is it's kind of communication on a global scale. Because we're talking about um, you know, when clients see it, they see it much like our audience. They may not know the technical aspects of what we're doing, they may not know the ins and outs of our process necessarily. So what they see is similar to the way that an audience would see it for the first time with fresh eyes. And if they bump on something, I think that's how I see it as well. When I see their note, my first instinct is why do they bump on it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think that especially when you're talking with clients, I mean, uh, I don't talk to clients directly, but I get notes from clients a lot. Uh, they don't have the language necessarily of animation or art or the specifics of what we're doing. So you do have to interpret sometimes, like, well, what are they actually saying here? Yeah, usually by by asking questions if you can't directly, or you talk with other people in the production, or you draw on your own experience. Like, I think this is what this might mean.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so yeah, that's a different level of communication that can be it's a it's a little hairier, right? You take sometimes you're like, well, I I'm pretty sure I have a feeling this is what they're bumping on.
SPEAKER_00I've done yeah, I've done a few things differently that way. I actually wanted to ask you, Kathy, like when you've gotten a note that is confusing for one reason or another. And you know, again, there could be many reasons. Maybe they're not very clear in what their ask is. But obviously, there have been times like on some other production I've worked on where it's a it's a language barrier. We've worked with different studios around the world. So for you, like perhaps you have an example of where you really had to work out uh a client comment.
SPEAKER_01I can't think of a specific uh specific example of a note that that came in that I was like, well, what does this mean? Um but I think what I try to do when I get a note that feels uh wrong, like wrong is the wrong word. Like they've used the wrong language because like sometimes I can see in the shot, well, they've said this is a problem, but I can see that exact thing is working. So something else has happened that they're bumping. Maybe they said like there's too many frames here, right? And they might think that's the reason it looks weird because there's too many frames. But I, as the artist, I have a lot of experience. I know the frame can't, that's probably not what's the issue. So I'm so what I try to do is I try to view it as like you said, like an audience member, right? What feels strange about this, and then I try and approach a solution. I think it's gonna do it. Sometimes I consult with other people, like, hey, I think this is what they really meant. Um, sometimes you take a risk, you're like, you go, like you have to go with your gut sometimes as a creative. Yeah um, or sometimes you can push back and say, like, I really don't understand this now. Can we have a conversation about it? I think you have to judge like what is the appropriate action to take. You can't always have another conversation, but there are times when you know it it the production's at a certain state, maybe the schedule's at a certain state. So you're like, well, let's just get this sorted. Say it's going to render tomorrow. Then you're like, well, I gotta get the right answer. I can't, I don't have time to interpret this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think I would say the same things too, like depending on the situation. Sometimes it, you know, I may have to look at a shot, let's say in animation, may have to look at that shot a few times to then understand the comment. Um, and then break it down. Um, there are other times where I look at them just like, I have no idea what they're talking about. And then I will request additional clarity on that note. And sometimes they'll just say something, an additional thing, one extra sentence and say, Oh, of course. Yes, okay, now I get it. Or, or maybe they look at it again and realize, oh, what I wrote makes no sense and it actually looks okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe maybe they were tired looking at it the the one day or one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01It comes back to ki communication because, like, in that instant, in from a leadership perspective, when you're having those conversations about notes, your role is to interpret that note for the artist. Because like you don't want to put a note out from a client that's really strange. Like usually you talk one-on-one with your artist about notes from clients. Um, so you want to be able to say confidently, I think this is what this means. Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I've done that in the past, like um, you know, speaking about Dino Ranch, like Dino Ranch Island Explorers today, we have a really great animation team. And oftentimes, you know, I'll always leave notes saying, if you need any additional clarity, please reach out to me. But um, you know, for the most part, they've been, you know, they they tell me that they're happy with my notes and they're very clear. But I know every so often, you know, I just worry. I'm like, okay, just in case, you know, if you need to talk to me, I'm always here. Um, but there have been a couple of cases where we've gotten the client note, and more recently I got one, and I I kind of understood what they were saying, but at the same time, I was looking at the shot. I'm like, I don't know, it's basically okay, right? There's nothing really wrong with it. But the more I thought about it, like the more I'm like, okay, I have a couple ideas, which essentially will just make it better. It wasn't that anything was wrong, it's just yeah, we could finesse and tweak it a little more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like let's I always think of it as let's sell it. They're not sold on it. How do we take this thing right? They're not sold on and really give her, you know? Yeah. Canadian thing to say, but like, you know, rather than just doing a little tweak here, be like, maybe this is it, be like, okay, I'm gonna, I got an idea, I'm gonna sell it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I think that's what we ended up with. I was talking with the animation team about a separate episode, and then I asked them to stick behind a little bit longer so we could talk about this one node. And I explained to Melia, I looked at it like 20 times. And the first 15 times I was still kind of confused in a way, but then I said, but I think this is what they mean. Um, and I had two options that could either be one or the other, or even both, and I, you know, kind of pitched them on it. And they seemed to agree for the most part, you know. They thought, okay, yeah, that makes sense. I think this is what they're looking for. And I think the biggest thing, you know, for a note like that was the more I thought about it, more I gave, I actually had to step away from the shot a few times too, right? Sometimes you need that time away. Come back, look at it with fresher eyes, and then you see something different. And yeah, after the first time I stepped away and came back to it, I realized, okay, it's possibly also a timing issue. Again, the timing of the animation was okay, but the way the shot presented the timing was could be conceived a little bit differently.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So my suggestion was because we cut on the shot and it's in mid-action, then we have a cycle and then we have a partial action, which leads to a change in the action. It seems the rhythm is broken, right? But in reality, that's how that action would play out. So, you know, you know, part of the solution was let's just tweak that timing a little bit so it feels a little more even.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're getting in sort of the nitty-gritty of like animation itself. Um, but something you said earlier stood out to me, which was about when you, you know, the team is giving you good feedback, they're saying, like, your notes are good. And you're going, oh, but uh, you know, you're like, are they, should I, should I evaluate? Like, am I hitting am I communicating well? I think that really is an example to me of a strong leader, somebody who's looking every day at how things are running and saying, how can I make it better? Am I doing the things I should be doing? Um, and you know, how can I learn more about what everybody's doing? Uh the leaders I've had or managers I've had who are very rigid, they don't want to change or they don't want to take on board that they could change are the ones that I have the hardest time with. Um, the the leaders who I I, you know, I can go to with a note like that and say, hey, this is a note, I'm a bit confused, but here's what I think it is, here's my pitch. And I have a and they want to work with me in that way. Those are the best leaders to work with. Absolutely. That's a real team dynamic, and that's where real communication happens. It's not just about you do this, I do this, yeah, we tick this box. There's so it's so much more complex than that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that that comes back to that empowerment, right? Yeah. And it's, you know, most leaders will understand that. And I think there is no real natural leader. No one's really born a leader. I think you have to gain experience to learn these things, right?
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I've met a few people who are like just like out the gate. They have something inherently good, like they're really good at like guiding people in a in a in a way of thinking.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, but I I think what I'm saying is no one's really born that way. I think in their previous experiences in life, even outside of animation, something would have led them to that point or something would have guided them to become more that way.
SPEAKER_01Possibly.
SPEAKER_00And I think that that probably is true for most great leaders, is that a lot of it is learned and experienced. Um, and I think what you were saying, like having leaders that listen and communicate well and, you know, allow someone to just come up to them and say, hey, I have an idea how to make this better, or I have a different idea that may or may not work. And sometimes, you know, hopefully most of the times they do, um, but sometimes they don't. And they don't for many different reasons. And a bad leader will just shut them down for no reason.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I think something else I learned in leadership roles was when to say no to an idea and when to say yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh, that can be really hard, especially when I was very young. I think I was like 23 or something when I was first animation directing. And uh, the team I was directing was like a bunch of my friends. I was and I and I had made a lot of assumptions that they were all really good at their roles. And not that they weren't.
SPEAKER_00We all feel that, don't we?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I was like, well, they all seem to be doing great. Uh and so when I got into a leadership role, I was quite shocked when I could see some people were phoning it in, some people were not listening. Uh sometimes someone would pitch me an idea and and I'd be like, Well, I guess they know that this seems right. And then it would be wrong, and it would be my responsibility to fix the problem. So that was a really eye-opening experience. Like, there are times when you should trust the artist, like for sure. But you have to gain that ability to trust your gut. Like in some of those instances, my gut was saying, Well, I don't know if that's right. I but I didn't have the confidence of a leader to say no.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That took a lot of experience. And and to say no in the right way, right? Like to say, like, this is a fun idea, but it's not gonna work for these reasons. Yeah, I think we should go this direction. And to just have the confidence to say that, uh, that was a big learning experience for me. Yeah. That that was more of a hurdle for me than like, you know, all the hard work and all the like running around and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think and that's the the the the big thing about leadership is that it it is about dealing with people, right? Again, you can have all the technical skill, but the the true traits, hopefully, the best qualities of a good leader will be the communication. Um, I see, I I kind of see these three things, and I hope they're fairly common for most people, but communication, courage, and integrity. Um courage, I say because as you were just alluding to, it's kind of the ability to do things that are uncomfortable, right? Especially in response to external forces. And I think real courage happens because of external forces. Like we can be, we can try to be courageous within ourselves, but when something outside of us, outside of our sphere, kind of uh intersects with our sphere or a person you're working with actually steps into that space and provides a challenge. That's when you need to develop and learn how to be courageous in those moments. And it doesn't mean you have to like fight all the time. It's not what courage is about, but it's having that ability to deal with those things as a response to those external forces. And I think the other thing that kind of goes hand in hand with courage is integrity. And the integrity, um, along with courage is that ability to do the right thing. And that can be the right thing for that project for that moment. And oftentimes I think leaders forget that that integrity is doing the right thing above what is the fastest solution, because that fastest solution may not be the right solution.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So that comes back to it's sort of what we're talking about, like having to say no to somebody, whether that's a client or an artist or or anybody in the production. And uh, you know, I think that takes courage because you have to push back on like people who are like they're paying for it, they've got strong opinions, uh, but you don't want to cause problems, right? Like you want to get you, you're like, I think this is the right solution. I in fact, I know this is the right solution. How do I bring people on board to that solution without just shutting somebody down, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think oftentimes that is how, again, how you communicate the answer to the client or the team or whoever it may be. It's like, okay, I don't think that's the right solution for these reasons.
SPEAKER_01Um Is that how you is that how you would say it? I don't think this is the right solution, or would you say it differently?
SPEAKER_00Um, it depends on the question, right? I think um, you know, in the past, when I've had to respond to some client nodes, I would write, um, I understand what you're saying. However, the decision was made, you know, perhaps in production, due to our limited budget, due to our limited schedule, that we could only supply something this way. And therefore, you know, this is this is unfortunately what we will have to use moving forward. And we do appreciate your understanding. So that's kind of a general kind of response, and how I would oftentimes craft something. And so, you know, making sure that note is heard from that client. And, you know, when I say client in this case, it could be anybody, it could be the animation supervisor, it could be an animator themselves. And I say, you know, I I totally get that. It it might make sense in that context, but the other context is what we're going for. So I do understand, I hear you. However, this is kind of the track we're going on to fulfill the needs of that shot or that scene.
SPEAKER_01I think I would add on top of that, because that's a very uh like it's a sort of a general way of saying it. But I think you really have to read the person you're dealing with. Like it really has to be like hopefully you've worked with this person you're communicating for a while, uh, or you're you haven't, and you go a little bit more tentatively to try and get to know them. But like a large part of that leadership role is coming to understand how individuals communicate, whether it's the client or your team, um, and then sort of tailoring how you operate to that person, right? Yeah. Like sometimes being the person who's like, these are the technical reasons we can't do this is not gonna work with some people because that's not enough. It's a feeling for a lot of people. Yeah, so then you have to say, well, okay, well, how do we talk about how would I say, what a great idea? I how about we like this is gonna cause some issues here, but what if we make this idea this idea? You know, like sometimes it's it's a less specific, it's more emotional.
SPEAKER_00Right, yeah. Yeah, I think in cases like that again, like, and I I think this comes with being a leader's learning how to pick the battles. Um, you know, some comments you can look at and say, okay, you know, is that a big deal? No. Will it make or break the show? Probably not. Will make it a little bit better? Yeah, maybe we can afford to do that, right?
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, if you understand also the technical side, you can balance whether saying yes or no is worth it, right? Like if the client keeps asking for this one thing over and over again, it's a little thing, then just do it, right? Like there's but if it's something that's gonna affect multiple departments, take a long time to do that that you know, you have to weigh when is an appropriate time to push back.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, something that big, obviously, it won't necessarily be solely my decision. For sure. I will I will actually bring it up, or if it's brought up to me, um, it will be a team response, right? So the producer will be involved, or sometimes our exec producers, you know, whoever, uh, depends on the project. Um, sometimes I'll actually bring that question to the team and say, listen, you know, to the team, like let's say four storyboards or an ad animatic is probably a good example where you get delivered a final storyboard and um it's just not working, right? Just doesn't work. And I've had this happen in the past on many other projects. Um, not too often, thankfully, but you know, when they happen, they're like, oh my God, it's like a giant sledgehammer on my head. And and then you like for me, I found oftentimes, even though I still brunt at the burden of having to, you know, kind of fix the problem. Um, oftentimes I will hopefully consult with the team.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, and say, listen, we've got an issue with this storyboard. It's going to require a lot of work at Animatic. This is what I'm thinking. What does everyone think? Any suggestions, you know. Um a good example.
unknownSorry.
SPEAKER_01I I would say like this, it makes me think about my first job and how I didn't do that. I I very much took it on myself to be that solution.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Uh, because I wanted to, I didn't want to burden the team. And I think there's a difference between burdening the team and using the team to distribute that work, you know, to delegate and to delegate because that's when the team is going to work its strongest. Yes. Yeah. And you as a as a leader can focus on the things you need to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. I have, you know, there's one time where um many, many years ago on a show, we got a board that was in really bad shape. Um, and the producer and the director, I was the assistant director at the time, and they asked me if I could fix the board. And it was one of those cases where, you know, even the director didn't quite know where to start with it. And they're like, John, do you think you can fix this board? Because there's so many problems with it. And I quickly I said, Well, give me a moment, let me look at it first to see what it might entail. I'm like looking at it, I'm like, oh my God, this is like it's not a complete redo, but it's pretty close, right? You're talking like 90 to 95% redo. Um, because you know, for anyone that hasn't really storyboarded, when you change one thing, it can snowball greatly. And changing that one thing can mean changing almost everything else after it. So, and we were on a pretty tight schedule. We had a lot of little issues with production at the time, not any one person, just the way things were working out, time was tight and it was hard to. To uh kind of maintain the schedule as it as it already was running. Anyway, so I said, okay, you know what? I I think I can help reboard a lot of this. But my ultimatum, and you know, it's funny being an AD, but having to give my essentially my bosses an ultimatum, right? Um, and I think I learned this early on as well. It's like sometimes you do still need to put your foot down no matter where you are, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I said, okay, I think I can fix this. I think I might be able to reboard most of this in about a week. It won't be pretty. Like the drawings won't be pretty, but it will work better. And I said, Oh, and obviously I'll salvage as much as I can from the original board. But, and this was the kind of the ultimatum part, but no one can bother me. Don't ask me any questions, don't don't knock on my door, don't bother me with anything else. You have to leave me alone for that week because it's gonna take a lot of work. Um, and they said, Okay, we will we will try to do that. I said, No, don't try. I said, No, this is what needs to happen if you want to maintain the animatic schedule, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So basically, before I went away, I brought the board in front of the rest of my team. So all the rev artists, and I mentioned it to our editor, animatic editor, and I said, Okay, with the rev artists, this is what's gonna happen. I need to disappear for a week, redo this board. In the meantime, I had basically written out a schedule, written out kind of priorities on the existing animatics that were in the system. And I said, I need all of you to just kind of follow this. You know the process already. So this is really a reminder. You don't need me to watch you over any of this. Just do the work as you were, just keep an eye on this. And then I assigned one person. I said, You're gonna be the temporary AD board super animatic supervisor for this week. And so I need you to just watch this stuff. Here's a kind of a shot breakdown, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you just need to help guide everybody else. If you absolutely have any super important questions, come talk to me. Okay. I trust you to not bother me, but if you absolutely have an emergency, you can come talk to me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But in the meantime, I want you, and this person had never done any kind of leadership, any kind of lead role before. I said, I need you to take this opportunity to try to do this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this is a great example of communication, but also empowering and trusting your team.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because if you are somebody who's a manager who micromanages everything, there's no way you can take a week off, let alone a day off, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh, and I don't think that's reasonable that all things should go through one person always. Uh, obviously, like approvals and things, but you as a leader, you should be able to trust your team to step away. Uh, and and this is a really good example of that. Um like a week can be a long time on a production. A lot of things can go wrong in a week.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, and I think that week I was reboarding like probably, I think it was like 18 hours a day, you know.
SPEAKER_01Whoa, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It was like, that's why I told people, you really can't bother me unless it's a major emergency.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, I need you all to kind of, yeah, we all have to kind of tighten the belts, roll up the sleeves a little bit more. I will try to fix what we have here and make it work so there's less of an effect later. Um, but I'll sacrifice my time now so the team doesn't have to like really just sacrifice their lives for the next month trying to really work on that.
SPEAKER_01That's something that's something we haven't really talked about, which is I really view my job in a leadership role as making the production run, but making sure that life is manageable for my team.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I think when you have you trust your team, they trust you, and something like this comes up, they're way more likely to be on board to find a solution because they they've seen you make an effort to make things run for them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I think that's a big thing. It's everyone making an effort, everyone trying, again, to find ways to problem solve, right? I think when they see that in any leader, they see that you're capable of, you know, taking a step forward and saying, okay, let's figure this out. You know, but part of that problem solving, part of that solution involves the team. That's where the trust starts to build, if not starts to build, continues to build as well. Um, and I have to say, like that experience was one of the first times I ever had to really, really act that way in a sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think what I learned from that too is that I was capable of delegating uh to that large extent, I was capable of like saying to my bosses, like, no, this is how it needs to happen.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Because they didn't have an a solution for us. They just said, you got to find a way to fix it. Uh that's no real solution without changing the schedule or doing anything else, right? But I think one important thing I learned from that was when I gave the responsibility to someone who had never done it before, giving someone that chance to try it, even if they don't feel themselves as a managerial type person or a leader type position, um, I think gives them that experience, even if it doesn't quite work out, even if they learn from that, okay, this really isn't for me. That's okay.
SPEAKER_01That's something we don't do in AMS. We don't have like temporary, like, yeah, we we really don't do that. I mean, part of it's because it's contract show to show.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but yeah, like our schedules are pretty bad. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it would be great to have uh give somebody on the team a mentorship opportunity to be in a leadership role and see like, is this for you? Do we think this is a good fit? Like uh there's no it's either sink or swim with those roles. They throw you in the deep end, which I'm oftentimes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think when when you're in a leadership role, and the more questions you can ask of your team, I think that again, that's not just engaging but empowering.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It it allows people to think, hey, my my word means something, right? I have more, more than the typical purpose of the role. I'm just here to define, in a sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_00I think that gives them a lot more.
SPEAKER_01So we're coming sort of to the end here. And I think one last thing that uh we wanted to talk about maybe was about uh some great leaders that we've worked under, just a couple examples of people that have really inspired us. Um I think this is a tricky one for me because I have worked at a lot of places and I have found it fairly rare to work for really impressive leaders, like people who aren't just doing their job well, but who are mentoring, who are engaging and empowering teams. Uh, like probably one of the first really influential uh supervisors I had was when I worked in California under Eric Leighton, uh who is like a veteran of the stop motion animation world. He worked on uh Nightmare Before Christmas and he he directs now and supervises now. And I was surprised by the level of difference in supervising, not just in terms of like helping me elevate my own work and the expectation that the work should be elevated, but the understanding that teams were a dynamic that that he was building and maintaining. So I was I was very inspired by that level of communication as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I hope everyone has someone they can look up to that way in a sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's important for everyone to have an experience like that. And I think similar to you, like it's funny because I could mention a lot of names. Um, but I'll be honest, like for me growing up, maybe it's just something about my personality, but I never really idolized anyone either.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know if idolize is the right word, I think just somebody who inspired you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think that's what it is. Like for me, I do hear a lot of people say they idolize, let's say, like a Tim Burton or George Lucas or a Steven Spielberg. And I was never really that way. I I've always been inspired by I think bits and pieces of different people. And that uh, I'll be honest, it's not just leaders and directors I've worked with, it's everyone around me. Um, and I know that sounds kind of maybe it's making me sound a little flaky. That's okay. But I think with all the greatest supervisors I've worked with, they've been mentors to me in one way or another.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So little things I've learned from them, like obviously patience is a big thing about being a leader. You do have to be patient and communication. I think some were better than others, but communication, I feel like a lot of that I learned through my own life experience.
SPEAKER_01Um, but at the same time that's something we haven't talked about, how like it's not just on-job experience that can help you with leadership roles. Yeah, it's lots of things in your life for sure.
SPEAKER_00And I think, you know, on the topic of life experience, I think you learned a lot of things from bad experiences too. So it's a bit of a Taoist, like Taoist philosophy. You kind of have to eat bitter to taste sweet sometimes, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So you can't think you can't think of one person who you were like, oh, I loved working with that person.
SPEAKER_00Well, I love working with so many people. So it'd be unfair for me to single out one person.
SPEAKER_01I singled out somebody. But if I can say I feel the same, I've worked with lots of incredible people too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like everybody, like so many people on the Dino Ranch crew have been amazing to work with. So I can easily say everybody on that team and uh, you know, other producers, other directors.
SPEAKER_01Um Well, let me reframe the question a bit. Is there something that you took into your own style of uh leadership or directing that you picked up from somebody else that you worked with?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I can't do it. But what what I can't what I can say, and I know this might be unfair because again, I don't want to like single out anyone and say, you know, this, you know, obviously, I think early on in my career, my first layout supervisors were a big influence on me. Yeah. Because you're young. You don't know you're learning the process of, in my case, layout, but you're learning about the business and the industry in a sense. So obviously, my first layout supervisors were a big influence on how I perceived um being a leader in different ways, because the two that I had, like the first supervisor was really great, very encouraging, um, and really encouraged me to continually improve my drawing, especially on the character side. I think because I was very technical when I started. Um, I could draw things in perspective. I could, you know, I was very good at tracking things that were technical. But he had always said, John, like, if you want to be even better, you got to work on your posing. And so that comment and his ability to push me a little bit more did make a huge difference. And that was kind of inspiring. But that led me to learn from posing and animation artists that were also working at the same studio. When I saw their work, I'm like, oh, okay, that's pretty, yeah, that's really nice. And so I would learn from everywhere I could.
SPEAKER_01Um I think that's a good example of strong leadership as well. You know, yes, you're empowering your team, positive feedback. I really am a believer of positive feedback.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh, but then also being able to talk about where can you get better as uh where can you help someone get better? And how do you communicate that? Uh, that isn't just, well, this is wrong, this is this should be better. You know, I think great leaders uh help people get better. Just in that example that you said, uh, you know, here's where you're strong, here's where you're you're killing it. Here's where you could grow and get better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and make that like a positive experience, not just a like a pushdown.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think I try to do that. Like when I'm making notes, I try to hopefully make that relatively clear in most of my notes. I try not to make it like, oh, this doesn't look good at all. Um, and there may be some notes I've written where it's like, okay, that does look a little a little funny, perhaps a little robotic. And sometimes I might be a little more specific, like, and helps to be specific, obviously, especially in a leadership role. Um, I might say something like, oh, the timing looks a little too even here. Let's plus it up and really push the arc of this jump or you know, give them a little more hang time during this jump. So we make the timing a little less even, right? Um so I think little things like that.
SPEAKER_01That's a whole other level of communication too, that's beyond just you know, managing it. It's like, how do you uh communicate about art, right? And I think communicate what you want to see.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think one of the most important things that um it wasn't that I learned it when I heard this, but it confirmed and verified it for me. And uh hopefully everyone knows who um, you know uh Rob Reiner is. Uh, he passed away last year. Um, but I got to hear him speak at uh TIFF many years ago. And he was talking about obviously being a director in Hollywood and how he treated his crew was amazing. Like I think most people would agree he was a really, really fine director, a great director, but he was a good leader. He was very empathetic, he was very caring about the crew. And what I got out of his talk was that as you know, he would do his best to make every day feel like a good experience for the crew so they could go home and feel like they had a good time working on that project. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, those are the leaders you want to work for too, right? Yeah, if I'm uh an artist, I want to work for someone like that and I want to do a good job for them too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And animation is hard, right? Like it's it's such a hard process. I think most people that don't work in the business don't understand the difficulty and the complexities of an animation production. Um, and there's no reason for any leader to make it harder on anyone else. Your job should be to make their job as easy as possible, within obviously there are constraints and parameters. We all have to consider those. But ideally, you want to hopefully, you know, influence and um inspire that person on the crew to do their best and hopefully go home, take that with them. And oftentimes what I say at the end of a project, at the end of a department, when a department wraps up is, you know, I hope we can all do this again. Hopefully you've had a good experience that we could all come back and do it again. And I also hope that if they move on to a different project, whether it's in the same studio or at any other studio in the world, they take the good experiences with them and gift that to someone else.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I was gonna say maybe we could wrap this up by saying like what you put out as a leader, you get back from your team.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh it's and not just like and the project you're on, but like you you run into these people again and again. And you know, it's it's all part of working contracts and moving around in the industry. So it follows you. You know, if you if you're a real jerk, it follows you.
SPEAKER_00It follows, you know, a lot of people have their own maybe personal blacklists or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And the other thing to remember too, especially as an artist, is chances are you will always be remembered for the last thing you've done.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's always frustrating.
SPEAKER_00Um, it's yeah, it doesn't always work out great. But, you know, if if the project isn't the best looking, or if it's not the critically acclaimed movie that everybody thought it was going to be, um, people will still remember you for what you did on the project and your attitude, yeah, how you worked with the team. Those are the things that people will remember the most. Because at the end of the day, 10 years from now, I will say, hey, Kathy, that that Kathy was amazing to work with. You know, I don't quite remember the daily stuff that happened on that particular project, but I remember Kathy was amazing and Kathy was great for the team. You know, those are the things people remember the most.
SPEAKER_01That's how that's what I remember too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's a tough thing, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think it can be tough, but I think it uh and there's always times when like things are very stressful. But sure, uh if you if you approach every problem with a certain amount of uh calm plan, you you don't have to worry too much about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, calm plan is really, I think that's the important thing. You approach everything with hopefully a plan. And if you don't have a plan, and part of again, part of problem solving is figuring out a solution, it's okay for leaders to say, hey, I don't know. Yes. Let's sit down together and figure that out. And actually, I will do one small shout out to this is not an this is not an animation, and I won't say the name because I don't unfortunately don't remember his exact name. But when I was a high school student and I got a part-time job at Sears working in cameras and electronics, the floor manager, the manager of our section, that's one thing he taught us and told us all when we were hired. He said, if a customer comes in and asks about something, if you do not know the answer, do not pretend to have the answer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Say to the customer, you know what? That's a good question. I have no idea, but let's find out, let's figure out what the answer is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's why everybody should work retail at some point in their life. I really, really think it's helpful. Yeah. Um, well, we're really coming up to the end of the time now. So I wanted to thank you. I really do feel like we should do part two because there's a lot of things I'd like to talk about in this area as well. But like, thank you so much for this conversation, John. It was a real pleasure. Uh, I think it's a topic we don't divulge, like delve down into in animation too much. Um, mostly because those roles are sort of singular. Um, but I think it's good to for everybody to understand how those roles operate. So thank you again for joining me, John.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. I look forward to the next one. And yeah, I think we can expand on this a little bit more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, me too. Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_00All right. Thank you so much, Kathy, and thank you everyone for listening. The ATC podcast is created and hosted by Kathy McDonald and John Lee. Music by Mike Romania, fixing and editing by Kathy McDonald and created by Irene Kennedy.