ACC Podcast - Indie Filmaker - Tarun Padmakumar

This is a re release of a season one episode with the very talented Filmmaker and Animation Tarun Padmakumar.  We talk about how he moved from an artist working in the studio system, making his own creative projects to now producing his own content for television.  We cover a wide range of topics from working in India to his own creative process.  Enjoy! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the Animation Career Community Podcast, where we answer your questions on how to grow, maintain, and transform your animation career at every stage. I'm your co-host, John.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

And I'm your co-host Kathy. Today we're talking to Rune, who's an amazing animator and filmmaker and a great friend of ours. We're so excited to talk to him about his career in animation and transitioning into the gaming industry. Let's get into it. You're uh a writer, 3D animator, and director, um originally from Kerala.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Kerala.

SPEAKER_04 0:37

Kerala, India. Oh, I was gonna get that right. Uh Kerala, India. Uh, you studied film at the National Institute of Design. Um, and after you worked in India for a while, um, you came to Canada and studied at Sheridan, uh, taking animation, a course I've also taken. Um, and then you started working professionally in Toronto. Not only are you working professionally in the industry, uh, you've uh done multiple short films, uh, including directing for the NFB and with your partner Joanna uh in 2024. You guys were winners of the Pitch This, uh, uh, which is incredible. Um and after years working in the animation industry, uh, you transitioned to gaming and you're working at Ubisoft for the past two years, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Almost three, I think.

unknown 1:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Two and six months? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:26

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So yeah, you're past the two-year mark. Yeah. Um, I I just wanted to say thank you so much for coming on the show. And that uh there's so many things I want to talk to you about just in that small bio. Um, thanks for having me. You're very, very welcome. Uh John, do you have any questions that you'd like to start us off with?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Um, actually, I'm really interested in how you got interested in pursuing uh a career in animation, you know, for a lot of people, obviously watching cartoons and stuff, but uh we want to hear your experience with that. How did you start your interest?

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Right. Um I'm actually um I'll try and nail it down. I I feel like a lot of people when they ask this, they know the exact point in time.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

And for me, it's like a bit of a haze. I I like I remember like there were VHS of um animation that I I'd asked for, and like the pickings were slim. Like I'd get like very old copies of like Winnie the Pooh and um and stuff like um uh we moved around a lot when I was growing up, so I got exposed to a lot of animation for a little while. I was in India, and then um yeah, in the I would say like third or fourth grade, we moved to the UK, and it's a whole other aspect of children's animation. Right. I got exposed to that. Then we moved back and uh and again like a different scene. So um I feel like my sensibilities are a bit of both. Um so uh I'm glad too that I got exposed to like like Paddington and Thomas Tankage and all that stuff, right? Which when I was watching it was also like 20, 30, 40 years old, but at the time it felt very current and uh timeless. And uh when we moved back, it was like more what I whatever I could get my hands on. So it was a lot of the um my mother was a big fan of the uh uh the Tom and Jerry cartoons. Oh wow, okay. And again, and and she she did not mind I was watching them. I know other parents were like, oh, you shouldn't be watching this, it's very violent stuff. But uh, she was like, Oh, these are great, you should watch them, and uh I'm really thankful for that.

SPEAKER_04 3:34

So do you find that like these different sensibilities have helped you uh like navigate within the North American, especially Canadian market? Because Canada has a heavy uh British influence, uh and India as well. But uh like I always find uh as a viewer of entertainment from the UK, I understand it a little bit better than my American counterparts.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Do you uh totally, yeah. There's I I um I mean this is like a this is maybe uh too specific, but I find when we watch like British shows and stuff, don't need the subtitles.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Uh which is a gift. It's like a talent for some reason. Totally. Yeah, and um yeah, and I and I I did like go back and watch things that I vaguely remember my parents watching at the time we were in the UK. I've gone back and watched some like uh I don't know, like coronation stream stuff, like the the old um Summer Beast Enders stuff. Like I vaguely remember that at the back of my head. But when uh sorry, I I drifted up, but like what you you asked when I wanted to get into animation, and um I'd have to say like it was uh it would probably be when I was very lucky that a teacher of mine um she would see that I'd just be drawing constantly, and at the time I had no clue it was in a goal that I could do, especially growing up in India. Um, you you were two things. You were you'd either become an engineer or you'd inherit your parents' business and get into commerce. And like that was like that was the mentality in the town I grew up in. You you go to engineering, no, sorry, there's three things engineering, medicine, and um and or you'd be go into commerce. And right I was so undecided that I took the group that was the hardest group to get into, which was you studied engineering and medicine, so you you get prepped to do both. So when you graduate high school, you can either go to engineering or medicine. And that I on one hand, I'm so sad I did that because I couldn't, I could have like I could have kicked my feet up and just drawn more. Um, but on the plus side, uh, if you go through that hard uh schooling phase, I think I was drawing way more on the back of my books and uh getting more distracted and messing up in my studies, but I feel like the art thrived then. Um, so yeah, it was a physics teacher. She just she she told me, like, wow, you know what you're drawing a lot and you're like really good. Have you heard of this place called um the National Institute of Design? People who pursue arts go there, and um I hadn't. And I brought it to my parents, like a very uh planned uh sort of presentation, like this is why I should go here. They have an animation program, and it took a little um a little pushing because uh they were like you draw, you should be an architect, because that was the that was the other that's another big thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

I think it's important actually, what you're talking about is important for uh a lot of people to remember is that we all have different paths to our careers, and yours, you know, our obviously your story is unique, but it's also something that a lot of people can relate to because of either cultural expectations or family expectations. Um, I know from my experience, very similar in a sense. I was basically groomed to be a lawyer. Um and kind of like you, I was getting ready to go to McGill, basically, and then I had that little switch go off. So it's it's really nice to hear your story about that too. Um, and having the support of a teacher, right?

SPEAKER_04 7:11

Yeah, I that really struck me in that story is like how lucky uh people are to have like somebody point them in the right direction or just see in them that there's something there. Uh, because at that age, when you're younger and you don't really feel like you're the best at what you do, or the the confidence to be an artist, uh having someone say, like, I think you can do this really makes a difference. Um, I had an easier path to get to going to art school, but um, because my parents were very supportive, like right out the gate. But uh I had a lot of internal doubts about it. Uh, because you know, people would ask me, Oh, you're an artist, and I and I would say, No, no, I I have no credentials to being an artist. So it really helps to have like a helper uh to come along, especially someone you respect. Um sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

I even um even like from there, like I I was still going to take I took the architecture exam, but it was my mother who she now she's come clean. She told my dad recently, she actually threw away the results because I had gotten decent results, and he had it in with a professor at an architecture school. He was like, You we're gonna ship you off there early, you're gonna sleep on his couch, you're gonna and then you're gonna start school in the following month. And he had this whole plan for me. He's like, We're gonna we're gonna fix this arc thing, we're gonna spin it, we're gonna spin it to be uh profitable. And she recently said, I you the results never came to the house in the mail. It was back when internet results were still kind of new. So the paper you had to send to them to be like, Yes, I want to enroll. She she she just threw it out.

SPEAKER_04 8:58

Wow, your mom is an impressive lady.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Wow. Yeah, no, it was I'm I'm very I I I uh you know what I'll I'll thank her. I I keep thanking her, but I'm also like I occasionally go like, what if what if I did look over that because I was just curious?

SPEAKER_00 9:14

We all have those days, right? It's like, oh maybe I should have been a lawyer.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

Yeah, yeah. Uh wow, that's that's so um fun. How did your father take the news that he'd been duped?

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Um yeah, he's he's he's he recently retired. Like uh he's he does still he's a he's a doctor, he still does um uh charity work on the side, but he's got he's gotten to a much more zen place. So now he he laughs about it. He's he's he's a very changed man. He's like he's in he's into karaoke and he's into just like living his best life. So he's he's laughing about it now, but I know that the man he was would not have reacted well.

SPEAKER_04 9:59

So your mommy, your mom even waited for the right time to reveal the truth.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Yeah, I think she forgot she did it. She was like, Oh yeah, I did that by the way. And we were all like, what? Happened that she confessed in the last year. I think because maybe because now I'm like doing a little better in my show that now they're like they can tell people, yeah, he's he's all right. He's no, he's really, he's okay. He's he's not he's not sparkly.

SPEAKER_04 10:23

I yeah, it's it reminds me of my own grandfather. Like I didn't know at the time, but when I was getting into animation, he was uh he was an engineer actually. And you know, he lived a pretty rough life uh through the second world war, and he always felt that like you have to get a solid job, serious skills, mathematics, and which I don't blame him for feeling that way, um, because that helped him survive. But I found out as an adult that as I was going to school, he was telling my parents, like, what are you doing? Like, why do you why are you letting her go to art school? Like she's never gonna have a career. Uh, and so he once I started making money and living on my own, he was like, Oh, I guess I guess all that TV watching paid off.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

I guess so.

SPEAKER_04 11:04

Um, that's so funny. So, like, what was coming from India's uh education system to Canada's education systems, education system like?

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Um, yeah, that's uh that's a good question. It's it's very it's it is I did have a different experience. This my experience was that um when you where when I I I I had a bit of culture shock, even though I had tried lived uh abroad and stuff, when I came here, especially as an adult, um, and you you you're just responsible for kind of getting a layer of the land. Also, the Sheridan uh uh the Sheridan animation course. There's there's two courses. One is the the very prestigious four-year course, and and the the one I went to is the one-year course that is just packed and tight and stressful and kind of I'll say like kind of like the the ugly sister, the ugly stepsister, the little baby sister course. And um it's it's it's very it was very um interesting to to see the differences because in India I would say if you can if you can focus on your education and your studies and you don't have any human contact, you can still kind of thrive. But um but when I I what I found out in Sheridan is you have to you you I I had to get out of my shell a bit more. And uh it's something that only I only recently I've gotten uh better at. Uh it took a while. I do think when you move to another country, it you you take at least a year to get to get used to the culture and the way people talk. Um in in Canada, uh here everyone makes small talk and everyone is is generally very pleasant and um but to an extent. Whereas I find when when I was in India, it was um a lot of like you you were your relationships are very um every day doesn't have small talk in it. It's like you you can go to you can go into a store and be like, I want this, give it to me, we're gone. And but if you if you come back regularly, if you build that uh relationship, next minute you're your best friends. You're like you're I feel like the relationships take a while to get deep, but when they're deep, they're very deep. So whereas here, I think I could I think I could become decent friends with like on a very basic level, be friends with someone if I see them twice. Right. But not as deep. Like it would be it would take a while. Uh it's neither are better or whatever. It's just it's just I had to learn how to talk uh to people here, it's a different way, a cadence of talking.

SPEAKER_04 13:44

Yeah, you know, I I've experienced a bit of that myself when I moved to the US. But even if you move to the west coast of Canada, there's there's different social norms uh on how you build friendships uh and connections. I think that's the hardest part about moving somewhere where you have no support system. Uh you want to reach out, you want to make those connections, but there's a different uh technique, let's put it, no matter where you are, even not even to mention if there's a language barrier, but the cultural barrier exists everywhere, I think. Um so I and then on top of that, I I'm sure you experienced this as well. Like you're an adult now, so you're looking after parts of your life that maybe you don't have a lot of experience doing as a student. Uh so that that's extra, uh I imagine, coming to another country to do something like that.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Okay, yeah, I've I've been uh I again like I've been very uh very lucky because when when I uh thankfully my parents like I had put some money aside to come here and use to take care of myself when I was in school, and it was a drop in the bucket. Thankfully, my parents by then they were on board. They're like, okay, we'll we'll we'll take care of you, we'll we'll help you with the with the a lot of the expenses, and it really helped out. But um, I I another reason I was very um lucky was I I met a lot of the friends, um, I still have to this day like in Sheridan. Um, I learned that like that the people you it's that it's that thing you learn that these aren't this isn't competition, this is people you're gonna be working with for years and years and years. And I have, I've worked with everyone I went to school with, and even people I was like, I had a lukewarm relationship with though I didn't know very well, when I see them, when we see each other like 10 years now into the industry and we're on the same team in some studio, we're like, oh my god, hey, like it's and now I sit next to someone I went to school with.

SPEAKER_04 15:40

Yeah, I guess I'm curious, Tarun, like uh what have you been up to recently? What what is what's keeping you busy?

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Yeah, no, I've uh well what have I been up to? Uh not too much. It's it's uh I uh I work in the gaming sphere now, which is which is which is which is interesting. It's different from TV and film, and it's uh but I I like the fact that I I get I came here after doing those things because um I personally feel like the gaming uh game animators don't know how good they have it to TV and film. Like I feel very spoiled, and um, and the thing is there's there's time to focus on like shots and stuff. So as a result, I'm like we have all this extra time. We can go, we can make stuff on the side. Like at work, I have like two or three other initiatives going on. That that that's and I I like I like keeping busy. I I don't think uh like any extra time being wasted. So um when I'm not doing um video game stuff, uh I try to try to like board my own um shorts and stuff and um try to make them. And usually uh I've got an email thread of ideas that I send to myself and uh they're all terrible, but uh but out of that like one seems interesting, so one seems like good, and then I start making it and it's terrible. But if I finish it, it doesn't it it doesn't suck as bad. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Um I've also like my impression of a lot of your like shorts that you've put out is that they have like a rough quality to them, but they feel organic, they feel like uh closer to a creative idea than a lot of animation is these days when it's been processed through so many pipes. And when you say this is a terrible idea and then you make it, I feel it's almost more of an organic creative process that way, than to be like, well, this has to be the thing that's gonna sell to audiences, this has to be the thing that fits into this market. Um, and for that reason it can be more expressive. It and it doesn't have to, it's it's more like a science experiment where you're like, maybe one of these things will stick, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Oh, yeah, totally. I I I'm very much if I come up with the idea on the day, um, I do this terrible thing that I shouldn't, I don't recommend anyone do, but it's like if I come up with the idea, I'm like, I have to make this or I'm gonna die. And uh and and and it's not a good feeling, but it's also great when I do it, because then I'm like, oh, I I don't die. And uh and it and it gets made, but it's real like you said, it's really rough and um it's not been thought out, so problems are there, but on the plus side, you know, like uh it's it exists, and I get to I get to move on to the next thing.

SPEAKER_04 18:39

Yeah, I I that was something I experienced when I made my short film, which was uh just the level of appreciation, respect, and well, respect is maybe the wrong word, but like appreciation when you actually finish and make something, yeah, is because that is really hard. That's a lot harder than the people think to like take an idea and go through a process and and have it done at the end, even if it's not what you dreamed it to be. A lot of people never make it to that stage, so just getting there is an accomplishment.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Totally. I I love your show film, by the way. I asked you about it like a while ago, but like but uh it's so cool. And you you you took it to did you take it, you took it to Taffy too. Didn't you win like the grand prize?

SPEAKER_04 19:23

No, not the grand prize. I appreciate that you think that is the case. Uh it it's uh one audience choice award, um, but I shared it, it was like tied audience choice award with another uh animator who I think her name was Catherine as well. It was a very strange coincidence. Uh, but it it was, yeah, I did play it taffy, and that was a really, really exciting experience to be part of. So again, like when you make something yourself, even if you know you see all the faults and and you're like, oh, I I don't like everything about this, um, getting other people's eyes on it can like dampen that self immolation, you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Right, totally. And and plus like I think that was a maybe maybe it was I think the first time I saw like uh actual like sort of like a horror stop mo. And then and since then I feel like stop mo has like taken like I've seen horror stop mows everywhere.

SPEAKER_04 20:21

It you know when it lends itself to horror, stop motion has always I I can't claim to have taken that.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

No, no, because it was my exposure to it. I was like, oh cool.

SPEAKER_04 20:31

Thanks. Yeah, I was very, very uh inspired by horror films at the time, so I'm glad it came through.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

There's uh there's like a stop mo horror, like a like a it's like a live-action movie, right? Like about a stop mo artist that they're making a film, and it's as they're making it, it's getting like terrible, and I and I love like that. There's like it's it's a horror for like an A24 horror film. It came out two years ago. I don't I didn't get a chance to watch it, I forget the name, but I love there's like a line in the trailer that goes like I don't want to make this short film anymore, and it's such a good line, it hits so hard.

SPEAKER_04 21:08

Um maybe you can talk a bit about like how your school experience led into like doing your own independent work, or have you always done your own work uh on the side?

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Um well, I uh I I tried to. I uh I feel like there was that uh when when I was uh in India, there was uh there were a lot of um a lot of good artists around me and they did their own thing, but they had this there were a few in particular, they they had like a sort of like a I don't know what the word is, uh like not a click. I feel like it was like they had a group of really talented artists that just make their own thing on the side. Um and I always wanted to do that, but uh again, it's the half practical side where get a decent job. Even if you're an artist, get a stable job in a in a um an animation. Studio wherever pays you well. So I I went and worked at this place before I left India when I worked at this place called Tata Interactive Systems. It's Tata's like this big company that has their has their fingers in everything in India. So there was this program that let you make lessons, school lessons for kids in underprivileged areas that if you they didn't have a teacher, they could watch the lesson and then learn and then go write the standardized uh exams. So um yeah, and it's it's it's a really noble initiative. I was so happy to be part of that. So the only way to teach that is giving like visual examples. So, like for instance, I had this, I really I remember this so clearly. There was this inertia lesson where this guy's driving a car, and then when he hits brake, like it's you uh the car skins to a stop and he moves forward, and uh people in the backseat move forward too. It's like that's uh kind of showing how inertia works, and and I took it upon myself to animate all this so so uh so clearly, and I I went too far. I they were like, you don't have to do this, it really just has to be two frames. And but I I like I added like smoke to the tires. I was and they were like, You what what do you think you're doing? And it wasn't I got criticized for making it look good, and and I and I that's when I'm so okay. You uh it's maybe this maybe I have like I want to do my own like I want I want to make my own uh videos and stuff. I didn't have the skill at the time. I didn't I I was um animating in uh what do you call it? Adobe Animate at the time.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Um in in my free time, but um yeah, that I I started making these little shots, but I was too scared to show them to anyone. Uh they're they're in some they're in, I think, my old Tumblr account. They're they're locked away.

SPEAKER_04 24:04

Um yeah, but everybody starts somewhere. Yeah, you know, that's it's think of it as uh your testing ground for what you what you're doing now. Uh and do you primarily release your stuff on like uh YouTube and like Instagram now?

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Um it's mostly Instagram. I only recently, I'm embarrassed to say I only recently started a YouTube account.

SPEAKER_04 24:25

That's okay. So be embarrassed with that.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

And and I I still feel weird putting it up because I I use the platform a lot as a reviewer. Um I love watching animation on YouTube, uh, but um for some reason because it's on Instagram, it doesn't, it still feels like it doesn't feel real. So I have a separation to it. Um uh I don't I don't it's not like I'm a fan of the platform, but I I love the YouTube platform. So so now only now just getting the courage to put it out there uh on uh on YouTube. I do think I should have shared more.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Yeah, I think YouTube also naturally it feels like, as you said, like a screening platform, right? Um it it just naturally lends itself to that, and it it does feel like something that most of us should eventually have something on. Um doing all this, like I'm I'm curious, like how do you find time to kind of balance all these things out? Because what I hear, which is amazing, is that you've got this burning desire to animate, to make those things move, as you mentioned in that educational short. Um, so how do you find time? Do you just you know kind of dig into your schedule and make you know, kind of dedicate time for your own projects?

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Uh yeah, it's changed over the years. Right now, I try to I any project that put up, any small thing, 30 minutes to uh sorry, 30 seconds to a minute, that's usually three hours of my evening. Uh I try and three hours. Three hours. And I try to fit it into those three hours. And if it's if it's if it's kinda done, it's going up. Uh and if it's not done, I get up at like five or six the next day and try and like plaster it up and put it out there. Um thankfully, Instagram's mostly um consumed on phones and the screens are small, so you can't see comping. You can, but you can't really see comping issues and uh all that. But um in the past, it would be it would be weekend projects like two days. Uh I've thankfully learned to get a little quicker with the messes I make.

SPEAKER_04 26:33

And um yeah uh I find this is something I've the thing a lot about, especially in regards to your work, is how those messy accidents uh that you you polish out by working on something too long are actually the thing that have appeal now uh with short form media, even long form media, uh because uh because all these big studios who spend way too much money and way too much time uh processing, not necessarily processing to make it better, just making it different. Um, I think they could benefit, and I think you see a lot of independent artists artists benefiting now from the intimate nature of a smaller piece and how it can be messy. Like even if what you're saying after three hours, if it's almost there, that's probably good for what you're trying to do. And the audience gets to see a little bit into the window of the process and it feels more tactile, even if it's CG. I wonder if you feel that way as well.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Yeah, I think there's um the way I say there's like um ideas also uh get stale. Yeah, so as soon as I I find if I work on something for say like three months, the this the idea is is uh it it starts like repelling me. I'm like it's it's not fresh anymore. And I've and by then I've gotten like 10 more things I want to do. Um, there was the shirt that um uh my partner uh Joanna and I wanted to work on, and we and I I loved the idea, and and we both like wrote it together, like, oh, we'll do this, it's gonna be so nice. And it's it's it's like still on I have a notice board above my desk, and it's still like one of the ideas I need to do. But I we took too long, a lot of things got in the way, and we took too long to get started. That that now I'm like, oh, I have to pause it till it's fresh again. It's like a small cycle.

SPEAKER_04 28:29

Smart. That's a smart idea. And you so you work with Joanna on a quite a few things, right? Did uh I know you uh you went to the NFB and were you working with her when you were working on your NFB short?

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Officially, no, but unofficially, so much. Like I I think that that film should actually say, like I'm sure I put her in special thanks, but there should be like some some other special credit for her. Um yeah, where we I try to we both try to work together now on most of our stuff. Uh, I find it's it's she makes my work better, and I'd like to think the other way as well. Uh yeah, the NFP film was was actually uh through the there was this Hard House program uh that um I I learned about just I stumbled on it and then I researched it and uh and it's like really it's a really great opportunity for for animators who um who haven't ever directed their short uh in the uh to get resources and have a team to support them. Uh I think it was one of the one of the best gambles I I've ever uh like the one of the best experiences I've had because I just sent them, I sent them like probably a 10-second loop of again, one of these, like one of these weekend projects. Like I did something, sent it, and they were like, oh, we like this treatment, uh do it. And I I showed up to the the the Montreal, the fancy NFP building, and and I walked in and I was like, Yeah, you know what I said to you? The idea, I don't want to do it anymore, because it's stale, it it's it had gotten stale.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

And I pitched them something else. They were so nice that they were like, they were thankfully the the new treatment also looked interesting, so they were like, cool. I think it was actually the first Blender short that they had had in the program. Oh very cool.

SPEAKER_04 30:27

So do you so you do you primarily work in Blender then?

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Now now, like yeah, it's been about that the pandemic hit, and I just coincidentally took up Blender then, and yeah, I I haven't really looked back yet. It's it's all it's mostly 99% Blender, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

And are you like, is did you just learn it through YouTube videos and tutorials?

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yeah, I um I I mostly did the the the one everyone does the the donut uh the blender guru donut.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

Yeah, I've done the donut.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Yeah, and sometimes I I'll go back, uh he updates those.

SPEAKER_04 31:04

It's a good tutorial, yeah. He really covers all of the different uh areas of Blender. Um and then you can sort of like explore from there, I find.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Yeah, do you guys have a preference like in terms of 2D and 3D? Like uh you guys have worked on multiple and like even stop mode, like is there like a medium you like or is it is animation animation?

SPEAKER_04 31:27

I think it depends what you're doing, but I tend to gravitate to 3D. I don't mind I I don't mind Blender. Uh I prefer Maya from a purely animation standpoint, but from an accessibility standpoint, I like Blender. I I can see why it's it's starting to take off. I think it's starting to take off because the Hollywood system, the big corporate animation system is kind of failing. And there are all these artists who still want to make content and they can through it now. Um I think as a software, it doesn't really make sense for huge uh pipelines, at least not yet. Um, but as an independent, with even if you're a small group of people, it's very, very accessible uh and flexible to a certain degree. So so I I do like Blender for that reason.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah, I agree. Like Blender, it's it's like other free software out there, it opens up the landscape to more talent. And it's nice to see all this talent that normally would be unseen because they're not part of the big machine, let's say, you know, or as the big machine, we we see all the Hollywood films today, and I'll be honest, like there's not a lot of originality coming out of there. So whenever I see a short film or clips or even someone's experimental bit, it's amazing to see uh someone's take on how something can be done or how the same story, even if it's a very similar story to what I've seen before, how their take differs, you know, how they can put a different spin on that story. I mean, for me, I would say I'm I lean more towards 2D. I like all film, it can be 2D, 3D, live action, whatever. Uh for me, it comes down to character stories. Um, but for me, I think I lean towards 2D because a lot of my background being an older dinosaur was mostly 2D. So it was all paper drawing, and I have a bit of a background in graphic design and illustration from my teens. So uh I would say that's probably mostly why I would lean towards 2D. But um, how would you like is there are there any specific things about Blender you really, really love for the audience that's getting into Blender? I think it might be helpful for them to hear from someone like you.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Uh right, yeah. When I was in school, I found rendering a big, a big, like, uh, a big problem. Right. Uh we'd have to like when people logged off and went home, we'd like steal their computers for like render phones. So I find with Blender, the rendering has become so demystified. It's you can you can you can just really um that that tension is gone. You can render a frame out so quickly, especially with their like base like EV rendering system. And if you want a fancier render that takes a couple minutes and looks like really nice with its like bounce slide and fractions and stuff, you can go switch to cycles. So there's two main rendering um pipelines you can use in Blender, but uh other than that, just the whole the the idea that you can make a film from start to finish in in one program is very appealing. Um you can do it, you can make a 2D one, you can make a 3D one. Um sure the tools, uh like you were saying, Kathy, like Maya uh I will say uh Maya is a bit more robust in terms of animation specific tools, but Blender, you can kind of finagle it. You can kind of you can kind of find a way around. Everyone has a different pipeline. Um I like that it's it's very malleable.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

Um I think my beef, and it's a small beef, uh, is that when I'm working in a studio system, I'm very, very much under pressure to make frames. And so what I really care about is what that that my software is the most efficient at doing that, and all I have to worry about is the creative aspect. I want to think about the creative aspect. I don't want to have like three extra steps to get to that one technical solution. I know this is what I do after. And this might sound a little complex, uh, it's really not. It just means less clicks to get to the one thing I'm trying to do. And Maya is a bit more efficient that way. Uh, its system is more economical. Uh, and when I animate in Blender under a deadline, if I'm animating by myself, it's fine. But when I have like a set amount of hours and I want to get my idea out there in that window, it feels like I'm uh walking through molasses rather than you know walking through water. It's a it's I'm just slowed down a bit. Um, and that's not as big a deal when you're doing something independent. Uh but it does slow you down a bit, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Yeah, that's yeah, that's a great, that's a great uh way to putting it. I agree. Yeah, you've you worked on, you've used it in pipelines too. Like I think you did a feature blender, or was it two, was it next year?

SPEAKER_04 36:28

I've worked on two features using it. Uh one a very low budget one where we were I worked at Tangent on this film called Aussie, and we were really in it because nobody had done it with Blender before. So everything about the pipeline was being reinvented. Like the riggers didn't know how to rig characters for a pipeline. Um, so there was a lot of learning, which actually made it really exciting. Uh, the team was small. Again, I think Blender lends itself to a small team. Um, so we could the departments could just really communicate in person. Um, and then when we moved on to next gen and the pipeline expanded to be more like a regular pipeline, bringing in a lot of people who are used to a regular pipeline. Um we we got a lot better. But I always felt there were situations where we were like, okay, we need to do this. Let's we'd have to just do go through hoops to get there. Um and Blender has improved considerably since then, I want to say. This was like 10 years ago or maybe maybe less. But even I I worked on a project recently in Blender and it has improved, but from an anime again, from an animation standpoint, Maya is just ahead of them in that regard. But I have started doing other things besides animating, and it is very accessible to an individual artist to pick up all the other things where Maya is Maya is not that way. Like I understand Maya from an animation perspective. I really have to spend time learning anything else. And Blender, like whether it's like rigging or modeling or shading or lighting or texturing, like you can you can jump in almost right away. And I don't know if that's how you feel as well, Tarun.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

I I agree, and that's totally it. It's um you're right. If I think about it for my day job, like if uh animating in games and stuff, I would use my amount. Um just because yeah, I'm gonna I know exactly what to fine-tune and what results I'm gonna get. Uh Blender, it's great for the experimental work, and sometimes there's happy accidents where like, oh, this this treatment looks great, and I I did it by accident. I'll I'll keep it. And I've I've gone into a few of those rabbit holes of uh recent, like short, short so 30-second experiments becoming a thing that becomes my obsession for months, but that's as soon as I'm done with my day job, as soon as like five or six rolls around, like okay, I can I can open Blender, I can become a different person.

SPEAKER_04 39:02

Can you talk a bit about the difference between uh working in games and working in animation? Like how first of all, like how did you make that transition? But also like what's the difference on a day-to-day level? Because you are animating still, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Yes, yeah. Um, there's there's there's like a few new tools I had to learn to use. Uh again, like I had to I had to learn it on the job, but if you come in with um with a sense of like uh like curiosity and and and learning and open to that, which uh that's that's great. Uh the main tools of the trade in games uh uh show there's Maya, just like 3D animation, but there's also uh stuff like Motion Builder, which is um Maya's like again like neglected uh sister program, which which while Maya gets all these updates, Motion Builder does not. I think people have forgotten it exists, but but everyone uses it, it's just a platform to get the mocap data from the actor into the system, and then from there you can work in Motion Builder, you could also send it to Maya and work on it there. Some people have specific pipelines to do it. Every game I've worked on has a different pipeline.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

Um is it set up for you or is this a pipeline like in terms of how you're working? Are you do you have a choice whether you can work in Motion Builder and in Maya, or is it set by the production?

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Uh it it depends on the project, but look just like in an animated series or a movie, uh, there's a there's a pipeline TD who sets it up like he's he or she's on the project very early, and they go, This is how we'll do it, and this is our tools, we'll support it. There's like that in games, there's uh there's usually like a TD or a programmer that's on on it early, and they do a bunch of tests and then they set it up. This is just from my limited experience, uh, but yeah, this is this is what I've seen where those jobs, there's some things that are very universal. Somebody sets up the pipeline, sure, and you run into problems and they have to kind of fix it uh as it goes on.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

I think it goes to that saying, like, as you said, like all productions may have a slightly different pipeline, some of them may have completely different pipelines, but ultimately as you're going through and working through that pipeline, you identify issues or um maybe foresee issues and problems. And it kind of comes down to that whole um necessity is a mother of invention, right? And I think even for independence, when you're doing your own thing and you're using Blender and you hit some obstacles, you find ways around it, you learn to adapt and work through it, or work with whatever those shortcomings may be.

unknown 41:45

Right.

SPEAKER_04 41:45

Yeah, could you talk a bit about like how you got from uh cinematic animation in games or like just animation industry to games? I know it's in my mind they're the cut they're the same thing, but I know on an industry level, uh, when you're trying to get a job in games from uh an animation standpoint, they are not viewed the same uh by people hiring. Uh could you talk about how you made that happen?

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Uh yeah, I um I I think I think everyone has a different path into games. We uh some of our colleagues in games like do talk about this because uh everyone cut some people like backed into it as and some people like lucked out. And I I do think I got I got a bit lucky in that way. I was working actually on um uh a show at at Guru uh the Mica Builder show that uh I was one of that too. Yeah, yeah, it was I actually had a great time and uh it was um I felt like I was really doing um some really uh good work in my opinion. Like I felt like oh this I'm I finally get it. It's been it's been um it's been like almost 10 years in the industry. I'm like, oh I can I'm I'm finishing all my shots, I'm helping out people, it felt great, and that's when I got an opportunity to direct a short film with the NFB. And I already had a job, so and I I was enjoying it. I wanted to do both things. And I went and spoke to my producers at the time, and they were so nice. Like I think they were they were the first few producers that I was thought like, oh they like that you producers are really beneficial to the process, good producers, right? Uh like they they can make or break the production, and I'm so glad I had like three really good influential people who are producing that show, um, and managing that show. And they told me, like, oh, if you can get if you can if you can manage both, go do that thing. And and I went and directed that short, and from there I got an opportunity. after the show ended to go work on a feature film and um I went to the uh I went and worked on a feature for a little while. What feature? It was the one at uh sinking ship uh the Spongebob.

SPEAKER_04 44:14

Oh cool. Yeah yeah I didn't know you were on that I was I was I wasn't on that one.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

You were on Jay you were leading a project then yeah yeah yeah I I I would I would hear that uh about your project through another like animator on your team and I and I always wanted to tell you like oh we're working at the same studio but I also know that you were like super swamped with like lead duties and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 44:40

Oh no definitely always reach out I I you should have reached out but uh um I had I was actually had a great time on that show I was not I was busy but I was not swamped like the way I was on Remy and Boo. So Tarun and I worked on Remy and Boo together and that project I was supervising but I was also had been brought on as lead. So I was doing multiple roles at the same time and that I was swamped on. But no at Sinking Ship I had a great time on that project uh I would have been happy to have a I even at Remy and Boo I would have been happy to have a chat so yeah for sure I mean I I I enjoyed my time at Sinking Ship as well.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Um yeah I so I was working on on that movie and um I was seeing uh that um what do you call it I was getting kind of hit back on opportunities that I hadn't heard back from before and I really think directing a short film kind of just puts your name out there. Yeah yep I did I wasn't yeah I wasn't aiming at it I I just really just wanted to make something of my own and another thing that that short film did was I got invited to go to places. So again I wasn't aiming to do it I I I went to the Annecy Animation Festival for the first time. Cool uh it just it blew my mind that that that people were just going there every year to to make shorts and just share them. And that's also the place I learned that I should have learned it sooner but there was there's there was a place I learned that sure features are great and all but shorts are where you see the weird freaky cool stuff. People are doing whatever they want and and they know they're like oh yeah no one's bankrolling this this is this is one and done so you might as well just get it all out of the system get it out of your system.

SPEAKER_04 46:33

Yeah yeah when I think about like uh something I I get asked a lot is like how can I make my demo real better? How can I you know how can I stand out when I'm applying for jobs. And the thing that in my experience uh right now is a bad time to be looking for work but I think it's also a good time to take an opportunity like this to create something of your own. And like you said Teroon like directing something really opens people's eyes it really gets you attention. It should be something you you're passionate about. It should be something you want to work on. But uh there is it's just a sea of professional work out there.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

And when you uh see someone's own individual work uh you get to see so much of who they are and you get to know oh this person actually did this work uh because large productions are a collaboration which is great but you don't necessarily know which piece of which thing that person did uh and and showing your own work is like one of the number one ways to stand out and uh from anybody else it's true yeah yeah so so that film that short really helped me especially with the backing of the NFB they were sending it to places I had no clue it was going to I mean obviously they they tell me that they were doing it but I'm also I'm like what does that mean? I don't know and because I love I love animation I love animating stuff I love making my own stuff but I but it wasn't the goal to send it to places and that was very short-sighted of me sending it to places means people get you get to share it with people and you get invited there and you get to see other people's work and you get to bring that home and be inspired by that so yeah that trip to Annecy and even going to just Montreal on multiple occasions or any film festival has been has been really beneficial for me because if you see someone doing what they're passionate about and making like just even if it's like a minute long uh it shows that you can do it too and I think that's what made me get a bunch of callbacks on other projects um whether well deserved or not I they they were like okay he he he did something he worked with the team and that shows some drive and um some some ambition um and uh and I know a lot of people who have the capability to do it but their reels are um even students like all the reels are like very animation exercise heavy uh I wonder I wonder if like in the future I see a lot more people making short films.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

I wonder if in the future all the all the reels are gonna be um just like oh yeah watch my short film more more personal work yeah I mean it sounds like you that would be your piece of advice to to other filmmakers or young people getting into the industry is trying to just you know carve out some time and do your own short film right like it sounds like something that would be good for them to at least try to work on on the side so they can not just develop their own skill and develop a sense of how everything works but also to develop their own identity to develop part of their own brand that can be then displayed to the rest of the world.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Totally yeah I I know that like thinking about it that way some people might find it a bit uh a bit like icky like oh like you think you have yourself as a brand or whatnot I I I don't uh so I I think it's just more of a in terms of how you frame it sure yeah yeah I I think it's like if you make your own thing you get better not just in the animation department you also get better as a writer uh as a lighter as a if you're doing everything you get better at everything um it might be like slow gains but you keep doing enough yeah if if if I were let's say like I was one of these young people and I I had an idea or a few ideas like you have you seem to have tons of ideas that you're kind of working on and have on your bulletin board in a sense um but if I was one of these other people and I said you know I never really have the time or I don't know where to start um are there any like quick pieces pieces of advice or inspirational things you could say to people like that? I I look at a lot of other people for inspiration. I think for a long time I was looking for like role models and um and it's tough to find because everyone's like they go do their job and then go home. But I found that one thing to do is just watch more watch more shorts and it might be hard to get exposed to them so maybe like use your student complimentary pass and uh and go to these festivals and meet people there. In terms of like finding the time uh as a student if you don't have any like any like part-time job or any financial obligations other than going to school I think you can find the time I feel like uh I was like up to like 3 a.m animating in my first few years of um of working in the industry too so as a recent grad um and and it was all terrible but the the second thing that I would encourage is um to share your work uh online even if you get like two views I would say share it and you can if you want you can take it down or like hide it later but I think sharing uh sharing your work is so important even to uh it's something that I take into my personal work my sorry my professional work as well uh when I was working with you uh Kathy on uh Remy and Boo even then I had an issue putting up a pass because I'd be I'd be like I want to just keep doctoring it and working on it and it it would hurt you I would say like a lot some time to do a pass on animation put it up and get the notes the notes are what's important the notes are what's gonna make you better so sharing it you'll get feedback and you'll just get better at yeah that's always a thing that I've uh struggled as a supervisor with is getting juniors to just put themselves out there ask questions be open uh and show me more and more like because uh the longer you as an individual struggle with something that you it is not necessarily working or maybe it is but you're just spending too much time on it uh the longer it you know the longer you're gonna spend on that shot in the in the whole long run when you get if you're if you're open to getting feedback and happy to receive it uh you can just get faster and faster and faster and faster.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

But yeah, juniors are very like you weren't the only one Troon who is uh who's very reserved about showing work. Um so I was trying to be as approachable as possible to to have those conversations.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

I actually I was hoping we could just loop back for one second to how you got into games again because you were saying you started that process by uh your NFP like getting more recognition is that sort of how you got into games that you had this uh knowledge of cinematics and they that was viewed as like useful uh yeah uh well I uh thankfully like I I have uh I've I've been gaming since a young age like this animation games it's all I I kind of look at them as like kind of the same pool like things I love and and uh cinematics is really based off of it is just it's making more short films every cutscene is essentially a shot from a movie so if you can get your cinema language to like uh look uh look proficient or look like communicate ideas well uh in your on your own work they they can you can be considered for a role in cinematic animation um working on shows and films definitely do help I think films I don't know if it should be this way but films are given more recognition um like feature films if you worked on an animated feature film they know that you can like you you can spend time on like a couple seconds and really polish it um however once you're in the system it really is uh just you know working with actors and working with directors to polish like the very long cutscenes that are that are way longer than any shirt you'd find in a film so you get a ton of data and you might think like okay I'm getting actors moving and it's all very clean I'm I'm already done but there's so much even the way we move is so is so interesting there's a lot of noise in in a human body that you have to negate sometimes you have to make things louder like if it's like stage acting versus um versus like film acting you know like you have to find game acting is another another part of that where you're making some things louder something's not as loud I find it very interesting too because there's iterations in yeah that's something in TV you don't get is the chance to iterate a lot.

SPEAKER_04 55:42

I found working in VFX I at least on my last project I actually had quite a lot of time to iterate and that helped me push my skills quite far when when you're working in kids animation although though there's some really strong skills you're gonna learn working extremely fast and learning how to be very efficient. That's an incredible skill to have which is undervalued I think in most uh high-end animation companies but like being able to not waste time on the things that aren't worth wasting time on and to focus in on the high end quality part of things is an incredible skill to have but you have to be able to have the eye to do those niche things as well and then you don't necessarily get that working very quickly in kids TV.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

I I got this really good piece of advice I still look at um I still think about it's first you get fast and then you get good. Yeah and I'm working on the I think I'm fast now so I'm getting working on the good part yeah yeah yeah but I appreciate both sides of it well because the faster you are the more opportun more time you have to to make choices and redo choices.

SPEAKER_04 56:54

Totally so if you're slow and you made the wrong choice you don't have any time to fix that now. But if you're quick and you get to play you can you're more likely to find the choice that's correct or good.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

Totally yeah yeah yeah I still try to dabble in everything the video games and TV and film like uh I'm trying to make my own short films and also I'm with my partner we're we're working on a uh TV show right now that we're trying to make and also we're trying to um I mean I'm I'm still working in video games and I want to make games in the future too. So yeah it's it's so is the show you're working on uh from your pitch from pitch this yes it is yeah yeah yeah cool could you could you talk really briefly about what pitch this was like oh uh yeah pitch this was uh it's an it's a sort of competition that uh the Ottawa International Animation Festival uh has every year uh I encourage anyone who wants to do it or has an idea for a film just to submit because uh sorry an idea for a show to submit because I did it on a whim it was this was something that um I saw and I was like oh I have I have like these 10 things that I made on my reels on Instagram and I took one and I was like what is the story behind this and we sort of re we sort of reverse engineered it and I was like why would I watch this show and we made up a whole thing my partner and I uh joanna and I we we uh made this little very like quaint little idea of like what if um we said we had a local show set in the city uh in in Toronto there's this park called Hyde Park we thought what if we just made a show about these animals living in Hyde Park and they it's it's pulling from a bit of that uh that British sensibility of uh of like Peter Rabbit and Paddington and all that but also it's it's set here so it has its own flavor and um we we sent in the pitch and uh when we got selected it was I it was already a win because you get a free ticket to go watch all the films attend all the animation talks and um and you get to meet a ton of people that ticket is like is like um yeah it's I find that was the win we got to and on the first day we showed up and we we pitched with 10 other people uh we went last which is nerve wracking oh my god yeah but but we heard nine other pitches that that again I feel like I'd watch all these shows uh yeah uh but one thing uh I did I we did do before we we went there was we spoke to I made it a point to like reach out to the previous winners and participants and ask them like what what their advice would be and um and they all consistently said practice your pitch. Yes hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times and uh and we did we uh every morning my partner we go on this like two hour walk to start the day off and and that's when I that's when we kind of share ideas for animations and pitches and uh for months our morning walk was us rehearsing our 10 minute pitch um uh like 50 times and and uh and we finally when we showed up pitched and it worked out for us we got called into the semi-finals with uh with another participant and we eventually went on to win it and uh I I find that since we went in with the mentality that we had done our homework and we knew our pitch we we got to really enjoy the festival because after our pitch we just run to screenings of short films.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:40

We didn't get to catch everything and I learned later everyone told us you're not gonna be able to watch it no yeah there's so many there but yeah wow that that really makes me what you're saying really reminds me of uh if you've ever seen interviews with Chris Hadfield the Astro Canadian astronaut he's like astronauts don't go into space afraid or freaked out because they've rehearsed so many times so so so many times they don't feel that fear they're just like we're just doing the thing we've done a billion times uh and that that sounds like what you guys did like the the stress of it was lessened because you were like we're hard prepped for this totally yeah now that now that that pitch is like uh like tattooed on the inside of my eyelid we can do it in our sleep there will be times there have been times when I've caught uh Joanna zoning out and she'll just say a line from the pitch oh you you just it's it's it's just in there it's it's in the in the it'll haunt you for the rest of your life yeah yeah I I had that experience too like in 20 I think it was 2018 or 19 I did uh pitch this as well it was that I I practiced and I memorized everything I mean you you go on stage and you still feel nervous obviously you're not sure how it's going to turn out but having practiced that much you're more comfortable with the pitch you're more comfortable with the materials so um especially for anyone that doesn't know once that pitch is done at least when I had done it as well um the jurors or the judges then can ask you questions so you really do need to know your content because they can ask you an odd question that maybe you hadn't thought about and you don't want to be caught off guard by something like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

Totally and even pitching to your friends and family yeah uh really helps um uh and they ask questions too we've pitched to we've practiced a lot we pitched to a like people on a video call like this no all people in the same room we've pitched to like a group of like um family that all different ages and the kids screaming in the back and this this stuff going on this this food being served and and so that prepared us for any any sort of eventuality I've also learned like if people aren't paying attention it's sometimes it is out of your hands but you can kind of switch turn the situation into something else like the conversation might need to be catered to them like engaging the person and uh so I I'd like to think that that all these interactions really helped us it it helps if you know also who you are and how to present the information to the to the the most honest depiction of yourself because you're not selling just the idea you're selling yourself exactly totally and you guys won am I correct the picture yes we won yeah we were very low very yeah happy to win it was what does that mean uh when you win do you guys get support to develop the show is that uh well I think in the past in the past when the industry was much more kind of like um robust a little more opportunities yeah a little more healthy a little more if people were a little more uh gutsy with their expenses you get a green light to like develop um and while while we didn't get that the this year the last one or two years the prize has been um you know like a uh some prize money plus um plus like a free software and some tutorials on Toon Boom and stuff which again but um but the main the the best thing I got from it was legal support uh we got we got some time with a lawyer and um I just asked a bunch of questions we we uh we asked a bunch of questions about how it would work if we went into business with some it also again got our names out there and after after we got off stage we immediately we uh again very rare situation but we got a couple offers to be like can you meet with us can you can we talk about it because all the execs were in that room even people who when they when they saw the pitch and later in the night when everyone at the festival is like intermixing and like getting drinks and stuff they were like we'll get you a drink but we're not interested in your idea then a week later they'd be like but we want to take a meeting and so I I found it very hard because no one no one was um ready to to to take the to take it forward but they did want to talk and we felt like okay again like another another freebie like it's yeah that shows the idea has some legs.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

Yeah and I think it it also shows who you are as the creators right um and you're right like a lot of it has to do with the landscape of our industry right now because in the past I recall there were like part of the the the winning prize was a development deal with Nelvana or somebody and it was you know worth maybe about $12,000 uh of development. So um but but what you did up there was you know not just sell your pitch and win the pitch competition but you sold yourself in a way right you show the world and the world around you who you are as a creator who you and Joanne are and you got those networking opportunities for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:03

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. We we um the main thing was we met a lot of really, really um important, uh I wouldn't say important, I would say like really interesting people. And and they weren't just network execs, they were just they were also indie animators that have since I've kept in contact with a lot of them and and they they have their own projects and uh and uh I you we get to like kind of support each other that way too. If you like something definitely like it support it comment on it. And it it uh I think we're all very um what do you call it we have to support each other in terms of like even valid validation isn't the word what is it I know maybe we're all like kind of right recognition driven that way too yeah no I think encouragement right I was gonna say yeah that's what I was gonna say too yeah yeah um you know just while we're wrapping up here Trin um I was wondering if there's like something you can look back on in your career whether it's personal life or career based that that uh like changed your perspective on you doing something so independent like was there a moment that you were like oh I can do this uh was there a bit was there like a big production you went through and you were like okay if I can do this I could do anything uh was there ever a moment like that in your career I didn't think about it for a second something that uh big a big challenge that you that you ever came uh yeah I would say I would say um thinking back to the the the making directing a short film with the NFB while also working on a uh on a television show it was it was two it was essentially actually two two full-time things but but with the support of people people in my personal life like I my my uh my my contribution to my household or whatever I was mentally checked out I was I was at my desk all the time right uh joanna had to really provide me with uh like she picked up the slack and um and I don't even mean in like a very like cliche like domestic way. It was I think when you're when you're when you're a person you have to like have relationships with people. You have to grow that way. Even uh going out and like c socializing had taken a big hit and um and I thankfully I have a partner who kind of lifts lifts me up that way where she she's all about caring about people and all that and and I if I was left my own devices I don't think I could have done it. So it would be it would probably be the balancing working on a on a on a short film along with working on a show. I'm so glad I did it and it it helped also that I had great producers and uh project managers like uh I'll shout them out like uh Kyrene and Vanessa and uh and so many people even our directors were very good uh and and everyone was super encouraging and it really does take a group effort uh to to uh support from your personal network to do that and I and I'm always gonna be thankful for for that even if it even if if if any of them did something I'd be oh my god I would love to like return the favor uh if if anyone needs anything from me please like you you did me a solid and I'm I'm here yeah yeah uh that really makes me think about how like what you're talking about is doing an insane amount of work in a short period of time which you know sometimes you have to do but you're also saying that like you wouldn't have been able to do that without other people there and there's no way that you could have other people there if you didn't have a social life before that if you didn't have interest before that.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:59

So you even though your work life balance sounds like it was terrible at the time the periods after and before that were you know cultural world building experiences for you that elevated that experience you can't just be working all the time you you creatively you would dry up. So all those other people um added to that experience I I think that's a great lesson um because it's pretty easy to get sucked into a project and think oh I'm just gonna do this by myself forever and then it falls apart right it it's just really hard to do that by yourself. Animation is a team sport even when you're doing independent work.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:36

Yeah definitely yeah I've I I met someone who directed their own feature film all by themselves and and made did the whole thing uh his name is Denver Jackson he made like a bunch of a bunch of like feature films by himself he's and I asked him how does he do it and he's like I sit in a room for two and a half years and then I come out and and the film is done now and and he doesn't do anything else in the time I was like what about like that human connection what about that he's like that's what all this is for and now he's now he's going to festivals and places and really filling up his tank with that inspiration and that he that's a model that would not work for me principally that people do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:22

Yeah yeah maybe when I yeah maybe in my early 20s even then you know even when I was making my own short film I had a couple people helping me in the areas that I didn't know I was doing the whole thing and I was working long hours but you know I still needed to sleep I still needed to eat those are important things too uh so some people I don't think that's a model that's sustainable for most people the locking yourself away for two years.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:48

Yeah no we're all built different like I think there's periods where you look inward and pairs where you look outward. Yeah but the the good thing is to look outward and inward.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:57

I think you gotta do absolutely yeah yeah totally oh man well this was such a great conversation True and thank you so much for uh being here today and uh letting us into your world uh thanks so much for having me the animation career community podcast is created and hosted by Kathy McDonald and John Lee music by Micro Maniac fixed and editing by Kathy McDonald and produced by Kyrie Kelly