The Stories That Shape Us

In this episode of Two Doctors and a Twist, Dr. Marilyn Carroll and Dr. Jamie Chesler sit down with educator, storyteller, narrator, entrepreneur, and Ed.D. candidate Andi Miller for a conversation about the stories that shape who we become.

Andi shares her journey through higher education, communications, storytelling, and community building, while introducing her powerful framework, the Invisible Org Chart. The conversation explores Keystone employees, institutional memory, employee-owned knowledge, career currency, AI as a thought partner, and the importance of helping people recognize the value they already carry.

This episode is a reminder that the most important knowledge in an organization is not always visible on a chart — and the most powerful stories are often the ones that help people finally see themselves.

“The most important knowledge in an organization is not always visible on the org chart.”

“People often carry value they have never been taught to name.”

“A Keystone employee may not be the loudest person in the room, but when they are gone, everything has to rearrange around their absence.”

“AI can be more than an assistant. It can become a thought partner that helps people uncover what they already know.”

“The stories that shape us are not only the stories we tell others. They are the stories we learn to tell ourselves about our own worth.”

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:39

Hi everyone, welcome back to Two Doctors and a Twist. And I have my sidekick with me today. Oh my gosh. We are so happy to have you back. She's been working on a major project and just had to focus on that a little bit more. So we didn't have the opportunity, but it gave us an opportunity to we didn't have an opportunity to have her on the show at uh for the last quarter, but it gave us an opportunity to get something else out that I needed to get out. And so, you know, as women, we divide and we conquer. So we know how to get this thing done. Anyway, today we have a special guest with us. Um, Jamie, do you want to say anything before we get started?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

No, I'm just so excited to be back. I I know I took a little bit of time off to work on a project and I'm ready for us to start diving into doing what we do and sharing with our audience. And uh I'm excited about this interview. So I'm you're ready to get started and introduce our guest.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

All right, all right. So today, today we have with us a very special young lady. Um, her name is uh I'm moving the cart before the wheel. She is working on her EDD, but we have with us today. Um, she we're connecting with her. She's a very special lady. I've known her for quite some time. Uh and today we're gonna talk about stories. So welcome again to Two Doctors in the Twist with Dr. Jamie Kessler and myself, Dr. Meown Carroll. Um, the stories we tell each other. Let's talk about that. The stories we tell, the stories we live, the stories that shape who we become. Uh, our guest again is Dr. or soon to be Dr. Andy Miller. She's an educator, a storyteller, narrator, entrepreneur, and a lifelong learner who is completing that degree. Uh, she's all but done her dissertation. And while helping others learn and grow, uh, I, like I said, had the opportunity. I've known her for I think about 13 years. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And just had the experience to see how she does some wonderful things with people and learning. So thank you all for uh being open to us today. I I gotta get started because I am so nervous about this because I want to share everything Andy has to say. Andy, take it away.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Well, first of all, you know, anytime someone slips and calls me doctor, I just eat it up because like I get the preview of what it's gonna be like when I'm finished. And I I tell people, and I'm at least joking a little bit, but not much, that I'm doing an EDD so that my son will have to call me Dr. Mom. He's 16 and he hates that idea. So I just I run with that all the time. Oh well, call me Doc. Exactly, exactly. So I've been in higher ed for 23 years. Uh, for those listening, I have earned my gray hair in this uh this field. Um, I started out right out of college, had a great opportunity uh from one of my mentors to join adjunct faculty at a college local to me. And I was hooked. I knew I would be. I just absolutely love working with adult learners who who are obviously juggling a ton of responsibility, but who are so motivated to persevere and to really reach their goals. And that's kind of everything I've wanted to do in my career is to be useful and to be a servant, to be someone who serves others and helps them get where they want to be. And so I think that is a big through line for me throughout these 23 years.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Oh, wow, that is so beautiful. Thank you. Uh so that is wonderful to know for our audience to get to know who Andy is. And so as we move through, uh Jamie, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Anything that you know I I I I resonated um with Andy's response there because the same thing, you know, working in the corporate world, I I took an adjunct position for the first time will be 19 years ago, and I fell in love with it so much so that just like you, Andy, I pursued my doctorate degree and because hoping for more opportunities in the educational field. And and I fell in love with it. It is still, after all that time, still a deep passion of mine. I absolutely love it. So I'm so excited to be able to talk to you today and learn more about you. But when you think about your life journey as you get to this point here, you know, uh when we're still going through our life journey, right? We're we are continually on that path of learning and exploring and enjoying life. But what are some of the chapters that kind of stand out most to you?

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Oh gosh. So just thinking about career, you know, I've I've been in higher ed for 23 years, but I've always been a teacher and a communications person. And there were times that I veered, I want, I don't want to say off the path of higher education because I've always been teaching, even when I was doing something else. So I've been a program chair for general education where I supported faculty. I've been a PR director where I shaped communication for a university and I I've, you know, worked with their social media. I've been an interactive media director for a company that crossed over eight brands from real estate to feature films. So I've always been into storytelling for sure. I've always been into effective communication. And alongside that, any way that I can, you know, build a platform or an experience that helps people be reached somehow or, you know, to not fall through the cracks to be seen, um, I want to do that. And so that's been some of the chapters leading up to now. And I think this is kind of a magical age where I'm seeing all the threads come together because I never probably thought they would come together at the time, but they do. And it's kind of a magical, a magical moment for me. So yay to age.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Oh wow, yeah. So even before you became an educator, do you think there was something like you started a business? What experience helped to shape you into, hey, this educator thing is working. Why? Why?

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Um, I just think school's all I'm good at. School's all I'm good at. I knew from the time I was in high school, just because I had such amazing transformative teachers who cared about me, I was very fortunate. Um, you know, I've always known that I wanted to be useful, I wanted to serve, I wanted to be a teacher. And it's funny because whenever I go off that track, somehow I'm not quite satisfied. And so, you know, like I started my college career in graphic design and art because I thought, oh, that's a creative thing that will actually make me some money. And so I interned in a Fortune 500 company as a very young person still in college, and I don't like it. I was like, nobody needs my help, you know, understanding this big company's need for their money, you know, like that just wasn't scratching the itch, you know. And so, yeah, into education and into social media and you know, all of those things just give me an opportunity to be very human with people and be very authentic and transparent, and that's my default mode.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Okay, you you you know, you mentioned it just wasn't it wasn't your thing being in that corporate environment, and and uh, you know, I felt the same way. I I worked in many corporate offices and I felt the same way, but you were in marketing, and marketing is huge with storytelling. You have to be able to connect with different target audiences, you have to be able to adapt your communication, and you have to be able to to um engage and and and tell a story. When did you first realize that storytelling was like something you must do?

SPEAKER_01 9:33

That particular position was at the forefront before social media was a thing. And so it was more like the the department was e-commerce, right? And so that's a different approach. And so I've always been an early adopter and a very social person online, whereas I am a very introverted person in life.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

And so I know everybody, my students always are like, you're lying. And I'm no, I'm not. Um, but I was a very early adopter of social media, and I had a book blog for like 14 years that was fairly successful. Ran some online book events, built community in that space, got to work with Reading Rainbow one time. That was a dream come true. But I think that's where I really dug into storytelling and I found social media an opportunity to tell the story that I wanted to tell selfishly, you know. Uh I didn't want to tell someone else's story, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Wow, wow, wow. So speaking of building your own pad, uh you built something on your own. And tell us about your new company, new product.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

So I have developed a framework called the invisible org chart. And it is essentially what it sounds like that every organization, no matter what industry, has the visible org chart, and then there's the actual under, you know, underlying org chart. The underlying org chart is more about how knowledge flows through an organization, how expertise, institutional memory, all those things function under the surface of an organization. And, you know, too often, especially these days, you know, I mean, restructuring is not uncommon anywhere. And I feel like my framework could empower employees, not necessarily their institutions or their organizations, but empower them to uncover what their actual expertise and knowledge are beyond the obvious, and to hopefully be able to feel more comfortable advocating for themselves and making a change within their industry if that's what they want to do. Um, but yeah, it's a very uh deep framework at this point. I'm just kind of rolling it out piece by piece.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Sound sounds very exciting because it's it's like the the, you know, you're talking about an organization's institutional knowledge. You're talking about an organization's ecosystem that's behind the scenes from what we can see on those those actual organizational charts, how things actually happen, the connections that are made, the history behind all the decisions that are made. So that that's just amazing. And I'm I'm excited to learn more about that infrastructure you're talking about. So um what inspired you to start it?

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Oh, just life, you know, life experience. I've been in, you know, a couple of different industries. I've been in that corporate environment, I've been in higher ed, uh, you know, PR, all the things. And it's it's an ongoing problem that, you know, restructuring or layoffs are not just restructuring or layoffs. If an organization is just looking at names and salary bans, they can really let go some people who are what I call keystone employees. And you hit on it, Jamie, when you said ecosystem. Because when I use the term keystone employee, I'm drawing from ecosystems in nature, right? Um the keystone species in an ecosystem is not the most visible, it's not the coolest, the biggest, the apex predator, right? It's the small, maybe unnoticed species that when you remove it, everything else has to rearrange around its absence. So, like if you take out the bees, there's no food and everything's gonna die. So, you know, I think of my Keystone employees that way. You know, it's the person that quote unquote knows everything, the person that you go to to ask questions who remembers why we use a system, why we don't use this other system when we tried it six years ago and it was a disaster area. You know, those are the Keystone employees. And they're so important, but they're not necessarily visible to the organization.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Well, you know what? You hit on something, and I um this week I met with um some others who are in considering investing in my company. And the one thing they asked me to solve was when an AI failure happens. They need to know the backstory of that. They read the book that I wrote, and then they came back with, okay, Marilyn, we read the book. But the one thing that's pressing right now, we have clients that have failed their AI initiative. And what happens with them when they need to go back and restart? And my mind went back to compliance, socks, and all of that, and how do you build that? So I have to go in and build a companion to go with that to say, how do you get back from failure back to your footing so that your company can continue to operate? So I like that. Um and then they also mentioned something else, which you're saying, your ecosystem, those employees. And uh, we kind of relate that to having career currency and helping people to understand that they have career currency. And what does that mean for them? Because organizations, when they go through these restructures and things of that nature, it is not necessarily to put anybody down. Sometimes they know, sometimes they don't. Because we have levels in organizations, and this is the challenge with higher having hierarchical organizations. A lot of times we miss out on the talent we have because it's the quiet talent that don't necessarily speak up or say anything. They're kind of in the back corner. And I don't know how to work. But at the same time, we have to, they have to find ways. We we just we can't rely on other people. We have to find ways as individuals to help ourselves to be able to know who we are and what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yes. And I think I've found that for myself, really, from using AI as a thought partner. You know, you know, it's it's easy to use AI as an assistant, you know, reword this thing and make me sound better, you know, or help me have some more tact here. Uh but you know, I've really I've discovered that I'm a dialogic thinker, so I have to talk through things. And so I've named my AI Chad. Uh and Chad and I would talk a lot about things and we talk about career and we talk about the things that I'm seeing and the things that I'm kind of narrowing down. And it really kind of helps. I've even asked Chad, I'm like, ask me questions so that I can figure out what I know, you know, because you know we go through our daily work and we know things because we've had experience, because we've had interactions, because we have relationships, but we don't think about them because they're so natural in muscle memory in the moment. So part of Invisible Org chart is really empowering people to find out what they know, what their knowledge is, so that they can use that as a transferable skill.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

That is beautiful. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

I know Marilyn, you and you talk a lot about you know, when organizations go through transitions and and you know make the decisions that they do, that a lot of times when they're doing that, they're not thinking about the structure. Is that is that it the strategic um processes that they you have a term for it and it it just evades me at this moment, but you talk about a lot structural systems and things in place of lack of it.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

You have to thank you, Jenny, because one of the things that not that this is about me, uh, but authority system, because there's a process you have to go through to understand where everybody's at and what it means. It's like when you come into an organization, you can kind of pinpoint if you're trying to fix what's broken, you have to know who the players are. And sometimes consulting companies get this right, but many times they get it wrong. And this is what happens. Uh, a lot of especially in the major organizations, you'll a consultant would have been in there doing the due diligence, so they say, of working through, and then they tell the higher-ups in that organization the that here are some of the talent that you can get rid of, but they really haven't um inventoried the talent to understand what you may go lacking if you don't keep or get that information that that individual has. Um history of a company is so important, just like history are history. It is so important that we understand it so that we know how to move forward. And I I like that you have this down, but this ecosystem and you're absolutely right, it's systems. We all work in systems every day. Some people may think it's different, uh, it's just an organization. We work in a system. Every organization has a system it goes by. And you must understand that system in order to know which way is the best way to move, but also to be open to your or transparent to your team so they understand what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

And then it's difficult to navigate those systems when new leadership or new changes or restructuring occurs because the system that you were able to navigate well through all of a sudden changes, and no one is sharing necessarily that's happened. And so you're going, okay, wait a minute, where do I go from here? Well, who I reach out to, all the things. So you still have it's it's a difficult process if it's not documented yes and the reason of why and how and all the things. Yeah, all the things.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Yeah, my EDD has really brought systems thinking to the forefront for me. And I think, you know, one of the detriments of most organizations is that they're not systems thinkers, you know, and uh they don't ask enough questions, honestly. They don't plumb the depths of their their knowledge network to see what will the real outcome of this restructure or this change be. They just don't understand.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Yes. And this is off the path a little bit, but I think our conversation is important. But Andy, you know, people that have that long history institutional knowledge about how things were done and why they were done this way and what worked and what didn't, and all the things, and if they're quiet, it's hard to let others know their value. So making the effort, even if the individual doesn't come forward and share information that that could be helpful, bringing that person and maybe talking with them or promoting them that, hey, so-and-so, Susan knows about this. Maybe we should reach out to her or Larry or somebody and connect with them so that it's brought to those new people who are are making the decisions now. It's it's helpful for them to understand kind of where all this is coming from instead of trying to recreate new systems when there's some systems that could probably be still effective, but just maybe modified somewhat. What are your thoughts about that? I'm sorry, uh, Marilyn, I'm I'm making some changes here.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

That's okay. Oh gosh. So much comes to mind in what you're you're saying, Dr. Jamie. And I think the first thing that comes to mind is that when organizations do try to uncover their Keystone employees, right? They try to figure out who they are, alarm bells go off for those keystone employees, especially in an economic environment like the one we're dealing with now, where they just may think, oh, they want to capture what I know in order to keep it and then get rid of me. Right. They want to. Uh get a copy of my brain and then let me loose. And so that's why I feel like Invisible Org chart really focuses on employee-owned knowledge because when you work from the top down, you're going to scare your Keystone employees into silence, basically. You know, those Keystone employees carry a great deal of load. And that load is not just the volume of their tasks, but it's all the network that they've created, right? Like I lean on this idea of a beautifully designed college campus. You've got all these beautiful, you know, concrete walkways and fountains and, you know, whatever they've put in place. And then you've got these little grass trails that run off, like because the students are not going to follow the established path. They're going to cut across to the cafeteria and they're going to make their little grass path. And these are all of the kind of invisible network that we're talking about, right? Employees make their own knowledge paths. They're not going to necessarily follow those established procedures or processes. They're going to make their own in their everyday. And so uncovering that is a very tricky proposition without scaring them into silence.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Well, I hear what you're saying. I am when I go into an organization, but I have that passion for this. Right. So at every organization I'm going to know, I inevitably, if I'm not even friends with someone, like I've known you for 13 years. I might, we're not like close buddy buddies or and all that, but I know what you bring to the table. I knew what Jamie brought to the table or brings to the table continuously. I know what a lot of people bring to the table because I watch how they do things. I watch the systems that they work through at the same time of knowing that those things, I also see uh their challenges. The challenges they may have because they have a limited view of things. And right now in organizations, we need people like uh you or Jamie or others that have dealt in 15 different or been down 15 different paths to understand where this organization, how you can help this organization grow or that organization grow. And sometimes the helping other people to understand, okay, this is the path you're continuing on. That Keystone employee that you're talking about, this is the path you continue on because it's the best for you, maybe, getting them to see that. And they can continue on and be happier in the next location they go to. Yeah. Um, I've been through three restructures in my career where I had to let people know this is it. We're going to be moving on. I've even been let go at my last company. Um and it was okay with me.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

It was painful, but it was okay. And I saw it coming. I was involved with it. I saw it coming because I had my eyes wide open, not shut. This is going to happen. So I might have to go in and jump on something else at this company, or in my case, it was going to sales and manage that, or you're going to go and do something else. And at the time, I happened to be an adjunct professor. So I decided I'm going to go over here. I'm loving teaching. It's less stressful for me right now. Sales, it's probably going to be more stressful. Little did I know that I was going to continue doing sales because I have to sell to students every day or sell to my clients every day. So I, you know, you have to know things for yourself. And we some type of way, I hope that with the work that you're doing builds on helping people understand who they are and what they bring to the table. And not that you're a business within yourself. And what you're giving out to this business is their client of yours. I don't care if you do work full-time for them, they're just a client. Yes. And when that client is gone, you have to have other clients lined up that you can do business with. Would you say that's correct?

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Oh, absolutely. And I don't think we, in general, people give themselves enough credit for what they know and what they can do, you know, what their transferable skills are. I tell students all the time, I'm like, the best thing you can do to be successful in any context, whether it's school, whether it's work, is to know your strengths, know your challenges, and know how you react to things, right? I know this about myself. I'm good at a lot of things. I'm really good at supporting other people, really good at making connections, right? Um, not letting people fall through the cracks, things like that. Very human, very empathetic, you know, all of those things that AI can't do for us.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Uh which makes you a valuable asset.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Exactly. And I don't think people realize how valuable they are. And, you know, we've leaned on these instruments like personality tests and things like that, Myers Briggs in the workplace. And that is not without value, but that's not the whole story. You know, I know about myself that at the end of the day, I am always going to default to honesty and transparency and empathy, maybe to my detriment, you know, but I have to be okay with that and whatever comes out of it.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Yeah. Well, I also think we have to be able to help people. Um, and I I learned this, Jamie is a coach as well, from coaching, that we can only help people that say, I want to be helped. I want to understand. I think in the world of education, the more as teachers we utilize some of those skill sets and helping the students to understand, as you're saying, Andy, who they are, what they bring to the table. The more we input that into them, the better products we're going to have at the end that people are not experiencing what some of us or our friends may be experiencing today, feeling, you know, less than valuable when they're let go of companies, because more and more in the future, this is going to be the story. We will not have people stand around for 30, 40 years at an organization, not even their own organization. I I'm built organization. I'm like, okay, that's enough of that. Let's exit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

And you know, that's what some of us, some of us introverts, we just wanted to get a good job and keep it forever. And you know, have that stability, but that is not the world we live in. So you have to you have to establish your own stability, your own okayness with yourself, your skills, and grow and be willing to change. Because honestly, you know, I could go somewhere else doing something completely different. And I'm still going to be a teacher and I'm still going to be a storyteller. Those things.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Oh, beautiful. I love that. I love that. Well, I think we went through Jamie took us off track, but we're really on track because we went through the stories that have shaped us. We've gone through a lot of other stuff. So let's do our last part here, looking ahead. Uh, once you complete your degree, Andy, what's next?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

That's a good question. I don't really know. You know, I just know that I'll always be educating and serving in some capacity. Um, I'm a crazy person, so I'm working on an EDD and a certificate in ministry uh from Austin Presbyterian Seminary.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Yeah. And uh, you know, honestly, I could see myself doing several different things, but I've always thought I would be a really good chaplain uh in this latter part of life. That might be the way I go.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

I don't know. TBA that answered my question. What what dreams are still on your horizon? That that's wow. I love knowing that.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah. I I'm I'm excited about that for you because your passion for people and helping them, that chaplain experience, I imagine, is going to be oh, I don't, you know what? We gotta have you back.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Where is she now? Because no one knew where she would go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

My last uh question is if we invited you back five years from now, what would you hope would have happened between now and then with the chaplain, the edd, all of that?

SPEAKER_01 32:21

I just think every I'm I'm gonna be very literal, you know, every death, every closing door is just another opening, is another opportunity to do something else or to reinvent ourselves. And no matter what happens, if you're authentically yourself transparent, you really can't go wrong. You know, someone will see your value as long as you see your value. And I think a lot of us that's the challenge.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

I I love that. The words I've heard you use are honesty, transparency, and service servitude. And I absolutely love that because those are the three things that that have guided me as well. I'm I'm a very much a transparent person, probably more so to my detriment, as you mentioned. Although I have learned to be more strategic about that. Yes, bringing certain ones into the fold that I know that if I'm fully transparent with that um it will be received as okay, Jamie's acting a little crazy right now. So that's okay. But we still love her. But but otherwise, I see that and I'm it's it's been absolutely a pleasure, Andy, to have this opportunity. So next time I see you at some point, then uh uh you know I will go.

unknown 33:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Thank you, everyone. As we wrap this session up, we'll have information that where you can get in in contact with Andy. Um, we'll also be featuring Andy in our uh Lib magazine, and that will be under um this episode was the stories that shape us, and we'll have articles on the stories that shape us from people like Andy and our other guests that'll be on the show with us this quarter. So thank you, Andy. Any final words you have for us?

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Oh no, just thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you both so much, and you're doing amazing things in the world, and I can't wait to see where the podcast goes.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Um, Jamie, anything parting words you have for us?

SPEAKER_00 34:28

No, it was a pleasure. It was a pleasure, Andy. So I appreciate the opportunity to get a chance to know a little bit more about Andy. Thank you. Take care, guys. Thank you for joining us on Two Doctors and a Twist.