When the Ending Becomes the Beginning

What happens when a professional ending becomes the beginning of something larger?

In this deeply personal episode of Two Doctors and a Twist, Dr. Marilyn Carroll and Dr. Jamie Chesler sit down with Dr. Stephanie Hawkins to discuss the human side of layoffs, professional identity, mental wellness, faith, career equity, and the courage to begin again.

Dr. Hawkins shares her winding journey from psychology and dance movement therapy to higher education leadership. She also explains how meditation, journaling, nature, community, and a strong sense of purpose helped her remain grounded after an unexpected career transition.

The conversation explores why people must learn to separate who they are from what they do, how a “to-be list” can become as important as a to-do list, and why the value someone brings to an organization cannot always be captured by a metric.

This episode is for anyone who has lost a job, senses that change may be coming, or needs a reminder that a title can end without ending their purpose.

Sometimes the position was not large enough for the person you were becoming.

Sometimes the container could no longer hold you.

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:38

Hi everyone, and welcome to Two Doctors and a Twist. Boy, oh boy. I am we have a fabulous guest here today. She is one of our columnists in our Live magazine. And uh I mean, she's a she's a true blessing. She's a beautiful person, beautiful spirit. And uh she's here with us today. We asked her a question, and you're gonna get to hear all about it, isn't that right, Jamie?

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Absolutely. Um, Dr. Marilyn, we're we're actually talking about something that's really affecting uh many, many professionals across the country. And and that's that unspoken word, and we don't like to hear, but it's real and it's happening, and it's called layoffs. But today, for just today, our conversation is not about statistics, okay? It's about the person behind the resume. So, Dr. Marilyn, you want to kind of talk a little bit more about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

So, our our our show today is as Dr. Jamie said, when the job ends, the purpose doesn't. Finding faith, strength, and hope during a layoff. So our guest today is Dr. Stephanie Hawkins, um, has walked through this experience with remarkable grace. And what struck me wasn't that she lost precision, it was the peace, the perspective, and the purpose she continued to demonstrate afterwards. So, Dr. Hawkins, give us a chance. Introduce yourself to us, tell us about yourself before we jump down in this journey.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Yes, absolutely. So, both of you, thank you so much, Dr. Jamie, Dr. Marilyn, for inviting me and for allowing me the space to share. You know, at the heart of everything, I'm a seeker. I'm constantly seeking to learn and to grow. I'm also a servant leader and just a transformational human. Um, my mission has always been to help elevate others and elevate their awareness, elevate their consciousness, while I seek to elevate my own so that we can be of service to humanity and to leave this place better than how we found it. So that's who I am.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

That's beautiful. That is beautiful. So tell us a little bit about your professional journey.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

You know, as with many people, my career path has been very windy as a youth. I didn't want to go into education because my family was either in medicine or they were in education. And I just remember my mother, bless her heart, 36 years retired as an elementary school teacher. I felt like she always had homework. So I did not want to do that. Um, so I ran. My path took me to psychology, and I worked in hospitals for over 10 years as a dance movement therapist. Um after graduate school, I worked, like I said, for over 10 years as a dance therapist, which is one of the creative arts therapies, if you're not familiar with it. And then I went back to get my clinical psych degree. Um, but then one day I was asked to teach a course at a university in creative expression for early childhood educators. And I fell in love with education. And so that which I had been running from found me anyway. And so I've it's been a beautiful journey. I've served as faculty member, I've managed faculty, I've led programs to increase student experience and student success over the years. Um, and so education found me, and I've been passionate about its potential to uplift people and help them actualize their potential ever since.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Wow, wow. So when you got that, I remember going through uh a layoff, and when I got the word, I knew it was coming. I knew I was involved with the re-orgs and restructures of the department. I was involved with the outsourcing partner to train them and all of that. And even knowing about it, I started going back to school, getting more credentials and stuff, things of that nature, and trying to place myself in what job am I going to have and how close can I get to the income I'm currently making? And um, so that led me to going back to school during the time we were going through all of this to get my PhD. As I said, I can teach and consult, as Matthew knows. I may not make the same amount of money I'm making in banking and finance, but at least I can get somewhere close to it, uh, at least until you know my next journey. My kids will be gone probably by the time all of this is done and uh they'll be going off to college. But I do have to get them through college. So that was what's going through my head and how I plan for it. So, what went through your head when you found out?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

So I think similar to you, we've been in the industry, you know, and regardless of the industry you're in, when you've been in leadership roles, you're familiar with that process. You know that it's always that looming possibility because organizations have to take care of themselves, and sometimes that does involve downsizing. Um, and I've been a part of it on both ends now, right? Um, so we understand that that possibility is there. And I think part of that preparation for me was making sure that I was showing up authentically, taking risks, learning all that I could. Um, because one of the beautiful things about working in a learning organization is there's always opportunities to learn and to continue to grow. Um, and so really embracing every opportunity there is to gain skills, to practice different skill sets, to get the education. Um, I think that that is what helps to be prepared.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Wow, that that is awesome. Now, Dr. Jamie, have you ever gone through one of these? Have you ever gone through one? Oh, okay. We can understand.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

There I am. I'm back. Okay. Not personally impacted, um, Dr. Marilyn, but I can tell you I have been part of it's my background before I went into education. I was in human resources. So I have been part of the strategic decisions on deciding which positions based on org change or organizational restructuring, acquisitions, mergers, all the things that would cause that uh that that reason to have a downsize or impact our employees. I've been part of making those decisions. And from what you mentioned already, I have been part of you know working with companies as the person who would uh inform the employees through employee notifications. So I've worked with a as a contract with a company called the Impact Group that would go in and do notifications for organizations. So HR wouldn't be involved, HR would then be the support after the fact, help the employees that are still remaining, keeping them motivated, and then helping those employees who were impacted to know what support was still available to them benefits all the other things. So I've been I've been involved in it, but personally I have not. Okay, okay. But what I I I'm really amazed about, um, Dr. Marilyn and Dr. Stephanie is especially now, Dr. Stephanie, um, you know, we mentioned that you were impacted and your attitude, your generosity, your calm, you're hopeful, you're you're so incredibly positive. Where does that come from inside? Help us understand that because I think that I would still be that way.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

You know, I have to go back. I used to get accused of having rose-colored glasses as if that was a weakness. Um, and I'll admit, sometimes, you know, you may not see the full picture of a challenge if the glasses are too rosy, but I'll take my rose-colored glasses any day over what can ensue from focusing only on the challenges and letting those overpower or become too amplified. So I believe life has a balance. And I think it's years of having a meditative practice, a spiritual practice. Um, and I say spiritual on purpose and intentional, not so much religious. I feel like I'm religiously fluid and very spiritually grounded. I like that. I lean on that understanding that everything has a reason, a timing, a purpose. And I think that allows me to stay steady and calm and to actually hear what that purpose is. If I'm too distracted by emotional responses, I can't hear myself and I can't hear what that next step might be. So I think just having a practice that allows me to return to that calm and clear space. And notice I say return because we're human, right? And being human is a messy sport. And so we can get emotional, we can feel off track. But as long as we have a practice that brings us back to that calm space so that we can stay fully present and therefore stay open to opportunities as they unfold.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Yeah. You know, you spoke on faith and perspective and identity. Uh, I think you led a little bit into that. And so let's talk a little bit more about identity. So, so many people, so many people tie their identity to their job title. How do we separate who we are from what we do?

SPEAKER_01 11:05

You know, I go back to in my younger years, I was definitely attached to that. And and even now, you know, I enjoy telling people or enjoy telling people where I worked and what I did on a day-to-day basis. There's a certain pride in that accomplishment. But I think it goes back to understanding what that mission is, what your inner purpose is, and that it's not tied to a title. When you get centered on what you value and ask yourself, what would you do if money were no issue and you had all the money in the world to do exactly what you want? What is the answer? What would you do? I think that tells you where your value is, and it starts to pave the path toward that mission and that purpose. And it can evolve over time. You know, when I first wrote my personal mission statement, I thought that would be it for the rest of my life. Um, and I realized, no, it evolves. We're in different stages, we learn and grow, and we expand in different ways, and we're called to contribute to society in new ways as well. So the answer to how do we separate who we are from what we do is always coming back to that mission and that purpose and checking whether that still resonates with you.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Yeah. Is that mission and purpose? Do you have that described in your personal brand story on LinkedIn?

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Yes, I actually this gave me the opportunity to make sure I was doing that. Um, you know, regardless of the title or the position that you hold, I always seek opportunities to elevate other people, to elevate awareness, to help people actualize their potential as I seek to do the same thing. And so I did update that that LinkedIn profile to make sure that that language captured not just my educational background, not just the work that I did in the positions, but what is that through line? What is that that piece of you that manifests itself regardless of the organization, regardless of the title, regardless of the job? And to make sure that that through line, that mission comes across.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

That's beautiful. I I love it. I love it. Um mental wellness, what have you done intentionally to protect your emotional and mental health during this transition? I know when we talked on the phone, um, you were telling me about how you were continuing your prayer and meditation in the morning as you uh discussed when we first opened up the session. So do you think that has been a part of it? What has what is your secret sauce?

SPEAKER_01 13:57

I can tell you what the sauce is today. May add some seasonings later. We'll see what we need. But I can tell you what the sauce is today. Um, you know, I I had a morning ritual, and so I made sure to continue that. And that involved walking, uh being outside in nature, maybe tending to my garden because it's summer now. Um, I also love to read and to journal. So I I continued to journal, I continued to read, I continue to meditate. Um, I can say the day after when I journaled, I wrote day one at the top, just intuitively. And then I thought about it, I was like, day one, wow. You know, there was something about seeing that because to me it represented a beginning, a focus on the beginning, not the ending. Wow. And it was as if being reborn into a new space to uncover who I might be now or who am I becoming?

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Or who have you been guiding? Yes, yes. Oh, wow. I feel so much energy from this, and I look so forward to our discussion this morning. Uh, what about unexpected blessings? Have there been any unexpected opportunities or lessons that have come from this experience?

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yes, there have been. I I would say, you know, I was accustomed to doing a to-do list. And all of a sudden it occurred to me, you know what? It's not just about the to-do list. Let's do a to-do list and a to be list. And so when I when I mentioned that to someone, they were like, well, what does what does that mean? And basically I put three categories in my to-be list. Of course, you have your to-do list, the logistical things, the things you need to get done every day. But the to-be list became to be grateful. So I wrote down the things that I'm grateful for, to be connected. And that was to make sure that I was allowing time to connect with friends and family, people that were reaching out to me to support, to allow time for that. And then also to be in nature. And so that meant I could meditate outside or take a walk or go near trees. There was something about being near something that's bigger than me that can make me feel smaller and even insignificant. And if I'm insignificant, then whatever challenge I'm facing is just small potatoes.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Wow. Wow, that is that is so beautiful. I love it. I love it. Um, what about support? What role has your family, your friends, your mentors, your community, what role have they played during this whole season?

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Yeah. So my family, everyone around me has been so encouraging. Of course, friends, colleagues, um, sharing their own stories and their process. So that's what I've appreciated most is not just sharing the support, but sharing their story, their experiences, going through similar situations, um, and being very forthcoming with resources, advice, and connections to other people, and just affirming that everything's gonna be fine, which I know it is, um, but not only fine, but even better. That's been the unexpected message that there's even greater in store, opportunities beyond what I might be able to see right now, and just need to let them come to me. So the community has been incredibly helpful. It's felt like a wolf pack, that's what I call it. Wow. Some people, some some of them howled because they were angry, angrier than me. Some were sad, sadder than me, some were excited, but the wolf pack howled and some just leaned in with warmth and encouragement. So I would say my wolf pack showed up and showed out. Um, and I've been so grateful for them.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

I like that. I like that. You ought to trademark that one. Wolf pack. Um, so looking ahead, when you think about your future, what excites you?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Hmm. I think what excites me most is the opportunity to bring everything I've learned to a new environment and a new setting, and to bring my authentic self. You know, I remember years ago as a new leader, I was trying to prove that I deserved to be in the room and that my voice mattered. And so there was some imposter syndrome there, wondering, do I deserve to be here? Do I know enough? Am I enough? And now I feel more confident than ever in my authentic voice. So what excites me is leaning into not only my contributions as a leader in higher education or wherever, but as a mentor and a coach. I look forward to volunteering, having some space to volunteer. There's some board opportunities that have emerged and presented themselves. So having the opportunity to make new connections and just be fully present. I have a rising senior. So my daughter will be a senior, so I get to have some time with her as we transition into her senior year. So just looking forward to the opportunities for me to support my community in different ways.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Wow, that's that's wonderful. So any advice you would wish to give to organizations to better understand about the human side of layoffs, and I'm quite sure HR has prepared them all for all of that, but possibly something that is different that HR maybe didn't think about, or maybe need to ponder on some more.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah, I I know that process has evolved over time and people are trying to investigate it right. Um but I think having gone through again on the other side and now on this side, I think there are some opportunities where people to focus on the people who remain. Because sometimes there's survival guilt depending on how the change happens. There can be projects that were in the air that only certain people were managing and they land on other people. Sometimes they hit them right in the head, right? They don't know it's coming. Um, so those transitions can be hard, but they don't have to be. I think if organizations trusted a bit more, um, allowed more people more time to transition, um, then it could be a little easier on everyone, psychologically and emotionally easier on the person transitioning out, and even easier on the people who have to manage that work sometimes when they're no longer there.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yes, I understand that. I just know that from a business perspective and operating a business and being in that space. Excuse me. And being in that space of having to um be the individual that shared with the people like you shared, that you were in that space where you had to let people know that this was their last day, or being in a space being told that was your last day. As a matter of fact, they didn't even tell me. They said, now, Marilyn, you knew this was coming. You were in the packaging, you were in the program, you were in the meetings, and it was unheard of. But usually the higher up you are, the more involved you are in that process. Um, but also the more involved you are in knowing that you have to leave right away once it's done, once the day is determined, because you got, you know, because of uh liability. Um, and so that's the challenge. Speaking of that liability that comes into play, the higher up individuals are in the organization. The lower levels you are, you can use typically they can keep you around as long as you're not messing with the financials or their customer data right away, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Yeah. But it's a that it's a great point. And you know, at our levels that we've been, we we understand that. Um I think one thing I would add is sometimes I think organizations might not fully understand someone's value if it's not tied directly to a metric or a number. Sometimes there are culture bearers who have indirect influence on so many people. Um And that's hard to measure. So I do wish that organizations had a way to understand and acknowledge that and to listen to the things that happen outside of the numbers that contribute to the overall health and well-being of the organization and its employees.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Yeah. And I think some numbers don't tell the whole story. Like in some things I've worked with, I had to go deeper. Even though being a PhD, I understand assessment, I understand design and going back to school now to understand it even more so. The psychological aspects of things I want to understand. But I think that once we can do that and understand what kind of company or group we're running from the ground instead of from the top level down, we won't miss out on things that we shouldn't miss out on from a leadership perspective, so to speak. Speaking to your point. So, final question. There are people watching today who may have just lost their job or know it's coming. Some are scared, some feel like they fail. What would you say directly to those individuals today?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

I believe in lessons, not failures. So view the situation from a place of what lessons are available for me here. How have I grown? Um, for those who may feel that transition coming, look at it as a transition. So hold space for the emotion, but also be forward looking. Look inward first to uncover your mission, your purpose, as I mentioned earlier. If you haven't already done that, do that inner work. That inner work is your sanctuary. It's your fail, your fallback. It's what can keep you grounded, is that inner view, that inner work. And then look forward. What are the opportunities? What are the challenges out there for me? What are the next risks that I can take to continue growing? What's the thing that you've been thinking about doing that you maybe had a little bit of fear or a little bit of hesitancy? Where can you lean into that? So to combat that fear, again, take an inner view and then take a forward view. And rely on that wolf pack. Your community, your friends, the family who support you, who speak life into you, who value you, and who see you in ways that others may not. And sometimes they may see things in you that you don't even see yourself. One that that would be my word of inspiration.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

That's beautiful. You know, um, I've been working on a another project. Um, I'm always working on some project, but career equity. And I when I look on your profile on LinkedIn, and um I see a lot of career equity, potential there. And I wonder, not just potential, but I see the equity and how you're placing it. And that's not a conversation for online right now, but career equity is so important because it builds your professional uh capital. And I don't think a lot of people understand what their career equity is. And you discussed a lot of things. I loved, you know, I could do if you were in my class, I'd do a SWOT analysis with you right there in the room because your strengths, your weaknesses, opportunities, and threats, those become your assets. Your strengths become your assets, and the opportunities are an area where those assets can be driven to. So I hope that you, as well as others, as well as those of us, Dr. Jamie and I, that's on this call, that we are positioning our career equity in a space, and we understand what that equity is, and we can solidify, identify, and have credibility around it to prove our point of what we've done, how we did it, and how we continue to continue to build upon that career equity for that professional capital. Dr. Hawkins, thank you for reminding us that while jobs may come and go, character, faith, resilience, and purpose really remain. Your story isn't just about surviving a layoff, it's about choosing hope when uncertainty arrives. What do you think, Dr. Jamie?

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Well, that's exactly why we call the show Two Doctors and a Twist. You know, sometimes the twist in life becomes the beginning of a brand new chapter. And it has certainly been our pleasure to have you, Dr. Stephanie, join us for this episode.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

Dr. Hawkins, do you have anything you wish to leave our audience with? Anything you want to share? You know, guys, she's going to be, you will see her every month on uh in Live Magazine, the column that she's writing. Great, great column. Uh, we've gotten a lot of great feedback from it. She is awesome, and she is one more lady, Dr. Jamie and I have brought into our ecosystem, and we will support her 100%, just like the other ladies that are in our ecosystem that we're bringing in and working with, or men. Sometimes we do work with men, but the women are very special to us. So go ahead, Dr. Hawkins.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Yes, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for creating this space for people to share authentically, to share in real time, not the lessons they learned 20 years ago, but the lessons they're engaged in right now. That's what's so valuable and so meaningful. And I think that's what people want. They want to make those connections in real time and hear from real people's experiences. So thank you both.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

That's it for our show today. Oh my gosh, guys. I if I was you, I'd watch this over and over and reach out to. We're gonna have the information where you can reach out to Dr. Hawkins. I see some potential in maybe some other coaching or shows or support group setups. You know, we're gonna be working on our with that. So uh make sure you listen in, share, share, share. There's 20 something uh 240,000, no, two million. I got it wrong. Over two million people without a job right now that have lost their job. Those two million people need us, and we can help them as well as them helping us. So stay tuned, stay tuned, excuse me, guys, for more. And thank you for joining us on Two Doctors and a Twitch.