Healthy Churches Grow: A Conversation with Pastor and Author, Tucker York

Healthy Churches Grow with Tucker York

Tired of constantly putting out fires while the mission of the church stalls? In this episode, we sit down with pastor and author Tucker York to discuss the core ideas behind his book, Healthy Churches Grow: The Pastor’s Guide to Reducing Chaos, Creating Momentum, and Leading His Church to Health. Drawing directly from the framework of the book, Tucker offers a grounded and practical vision for church health that outlasts trends, respects a congregation’s real context, and frees pastors from the pressure of doing everything themselves.

Throughout our conversation, Tucker walks us through key themes from Healthy Churches Grow, including how Ephesians 4 reframes pastoral leadership around preaching, prayer, study, and equipping the saints. He explains how clear roles, simple structures, and a culture of delegation are not corporate techniques, but biblical tools that help the body flourish without burning out its shepherds.

We also dig into the nuts and bolts many churches avoid, topics Tucker addresses directly in the book, such as safety and crisis readiness, leadership alignment, and strategic planning that actually fits a church’s size and stage. Tucker helps pastors distinguish normal ministry fatigue from deeper structural dysfunction and shares realistic, low-lift “quick wins” from Healthy Churches Grow that can spark momentum now rather than someday.

Leadership development and succession planning take center stage as well. Tucker explains how churches can intentionally identify gifts, create on-ramps for service, and build leadership pipelines that strengthen the church and extend its witness into the community. We also discuss pastoral transitions, one of the most vulnerable moments in a church’s life, and how clarity, humility, and foresight can turn those seasons into opportunities for renewal.

Whether you are leading a young church plant or stewarding an established congregation, this conversation highlights why Healthy Churches Grow is a valuable guide for reducing chaos, creating momentum, and pursuing lasting church health.

📘 Healthy Churches Grow by Tucker York

Learn more about the book and get a copy here:
 https://a.co/d/03cdTnyL

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 What’s one “quick win” you’ll tackle this month?

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Welcome to Catechizing Conversations, a podcast focused on theology for the life of the church. I'm Sisko Vichta, and today I'm joined by my guest, Tucker York, author of Healthy Churches Grow, the Pastor's Guide to Reducing Chaos, Creating Moment, and Leading His Church to Health. In this episode, we're going to talk about what church health looks like, how pastors can distinguish ordinary ministry fatigue from deeper structural issues, and why patience, leadership development, and clarity matter for long-term health. So whether you're serving in a church plant or a long-established congregation or somewhere in between, our hope is that this conversation will be both encouraging and practical as we think about faithfulness, health, and leading strong, productive churches for the glory of God. We're glad that you're with us. Tucker, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Thank you so much. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

So Tucker is the executive pastor at Westminster Presbyterian Church in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. And we're certainly thankful for Westminster and its uh broad reach and influence and its impact upon us here at Levinan Valley PCA. And uh so you have been the executive pastor there for how many years?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

I've been on staff for 22 years. I've been executive pastor now for seven of those years.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

22 years and and a lot of growth that's happened in the congregation. Lots of growth and change. Lots of growth, lots of change, and and you've helped oversee that and and lead that. And and so you speak from experience.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

I hope so.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

This is something that you write a book on healthy churches, but you you certainly are part of a healthy church and and the church that is growing and expanding and uh has been an a uh positive influence really all over this, not only our presbytery, but all over the state of Pennsylvania. So Tucker is uh not only executive pastor at le Westminster uh Presbyterian Church, but uh he's also been the clerk of our presbytery, Susquehanna Valley Presbytery. And uh how many years have you served in the first time? Ten years. Ten years, and I think in the last uh presbytery I heard there's gonna be a transition.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yes, this next presbytery meeting will be my last uh clerk.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

So you you were serving in that role ever since we started as a church plant for five years. So we're thankful for your service in that capacity as well. So both of these roles that you've served have brought you in contact with with pastors and churches that at times are struggling.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

And was that one of the impetus and motivations for your writing this book?

Why A Book On Church Health

SPEAKER_01 3:18

It was, yeah. This book comes out of my doctoral work, which I completed 10 years ago, and that dates back to my seminary days. When I was in seminary 25 years ago, I was the placement director. So I was helping pastors and graduates find their next call, their where they were going after seminary or transitioning. And I saw firsthand how messy and how broken the process was sometimes with how churches called pastors and communicated expectations and things. So that was as I left seminary and came to Westminster and was serving for a number of years, and when I began a doctoral program, I really wanted to focus on churches and transitions and calling pastors. And it kind of echoed back to my, I was a I did consulting and I had an engineering background and in college and consulting background between college and seminary. And I love seeing excellence, I love seeing efficiency, I love seeing productivity. And so I've had a real hard, and then just working with our churches and our presbytery, I helped three different churches in their transition process years ago. And so that kind of formed the foundation for the book.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

And one of the things I appreciate in beginning to read your book is you really challenge how many pastors they focus on theology, of course, they focus on the necessity of prayer and those spiritual disciplines. Yes. All of these things that are mandatory and non-negotiables. But as pastors, sometimes we have a tendency to ignore what you call the common grace principles of leadership and administration.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

And so you challenge pastors in that regard.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

I do. And and my book does challenge that and and not to diminish the priority of worship, leading worship, shepherding, preaching, teaching, disciple making, those are what pastors are called to do. But as we understand the church organizationally, and we really try to unpack Ephesians 4, what does it mean to equip the body, to build up the body to mature and grow the body? There are things I think pastors need to recognize. And whether they're naturally gifted in those areas or not, leading or finding people in their churches who can help them to develop the body organizationally, structurally, so that ministry can grow, flourish, make greater impact and inreach into their communities.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Yeah. And so do you find that pastors are reluctant in the area of strengthening their gifts or just their attention on subjects such as leadership or administration?

SPEAKER_01 5:59

I think for some pastors it can be intimidating or a bit overwhelming. I think pastors, most pastors I know want to grow in these areas, even if they're not, don't have training in this background or aren't feeling naturally gifted at it, but recognize the need for their church to develop leaders, to develop structure and policies and those sorts of things so that the church can flourish. And I think, yeah, most pastors recognize, you know, their need to grow, but also want to guard the priorities of their time and their ministry. And what does it mean to help develop and identify people in the church who could develop these ministry structures for the benefit of the body? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yeah, that's one thing that stood out to me in the beginning pages of your book is you say this is not a church growth book, this is a church health book. And and so you want to see churches that are healthy and pastors leading elders leading healthy churches. What does a healthy church look like?

Defining Organizational Health Biblically

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah. No, I appreciate you picking up that emphasis. I mean, there's a lot of gimmicks out there for church growth, and that's not what this book is about. This is about what are the biblical foundations for health. And what can we learn from organizational health? I think in the business world, the nonprofit world, there are things that in common grace wisdom leaders have identified principles that are very consistent with the way Moses led Israel, the way Jesus led his disciples, the way Paul and the apostles led the early church. And you see it throughout church history. But organizational health is being clear on your mission, having unity in your leadership. It's having clarity, a vision, clear roles, responsibilities, having goals that are biblically based and realistic, that stretch you. It's you know, mitigating challenges, you being prepared for things that, and sometimes that can be policy or you know, just safety, or just you know, making decisions before you have to make decisions in a crisis mode. Just being wise and planning, you know, for the good of the body and uh and into and for your public witness into the community so that people realize you're a healthy, safe church that is really committed to growth and ministering to people.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Right. And I and I think even just that way you start your book, I I mentioned to you before we started this podcast, when I picked it up, I started just reading the first few paragraphs and I thought, I need this. I'm a church planter, we're we're a young church, but it is easy to get lost in the weeds. Yes. And and one picture that you paint in the early pages of the book is that many pastors are just kind of going out there putting out fires day after day.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Do you find that to be a weakness in in pastors and and what's the remedy to that?

SPEAKER_01 8:53

You know, as pastors, we're helpers. You know, we love, we're we're leaders, we're shepherds, we're helpers. And sometimes the tyranny, the urgent, get grabs our attention. And there are gimme crises, and people have emergencies, and we need to be available to them. But when we're not overwhelmed with emergencies, what are we doing to help prepare for the future? You know, you know, firemen don't spend all their time out fighting fighting fires, they spend their time in the firehouse, training, prepping, recruiting, cleaning their instruments. They're doing things to be ready for the next fire. And that has always stuck with me as an apt analogy to think about readiness and preparation in our ministry to serve our people well.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

What would you say to the pastor that's perhaps picks up this book or is considering purchasing this book, which was just recently released, right? Yes. Yeah, it just came out, hot off the press. Yeah. But they're thinking about it, but they're look, they're saying, you know, okay, you're an executive pastor, and maybe they know something about Westminster, which is considered one of the bigger, most influential, impactful churches in our Presbyterian in this state. But they say, Well, you know, I'm a I'm a solo pastor, I'm the counselor, I'm the preacher, I'm the visitor of the sick. This is great for a church that has a staff of ten pastors and one is designated to strictly administration and leadership. What would you say to the pastor that is skeptical in that way?

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Sure, I totally understand that skepticism. And, you know, our intent with the book was to really write for pastors of smaller and medium-sized churches because we believe that the principles here are universal, they're scalable. This wasn't written from a, hey, do this the Westminster way or do this the large church way, because churches are very different, and each church has its own context. But you begin with, you have your theological foundations of what you believe is a church. You may have, you know, polity standards in your denomination, and we respect, you know, they're they're gonna are gonna vary from church to church. But I believe there are, you know, biblical principles that apply, just good leadership principles, good wisdom on what organizational health looks like, the wise ways to help mitigate crises, setting goals and envision for the future. And each of those are tailored fit for your church. I try to offer process in principle, with enough application and illustration that it can hit home. But the way this is gonna work itself out in each church is gonna look very different. Right. And you know, and even churches, I mean, are like trees. There's different types of trees. You know, redwood trees grow massive, other trees are smaller. Not every church is gonna be a massive church, but every church, I think, has the potential uh to reach a maturation point in terms of maximizing its impact on its community. And that's my my heart and desire to see every church be able to reach the people that God's called them to reach in their community, and that's gonna look very different based upon urban and rural and suburban and whatever context the church finds itself in.

Firefighting Vs Preparation

SPEAKER_00 12:14

And and what God is pleased to do in that particular church, not every church is going to be have a thousand members, right? But there's a difference between growth and numbers and health. Yes. So can I return to that passage that you referenced earlier in Ephesians 4, equipping the body? Because I didn't even get to that point in your book. Okay. Yeah. But I was already thinking about it. You you set the stage that that's where you're going, that the goal is to see apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, from as from Ephesians 4 says, equipping the saints so that they do the work of the ministry. And that picture of a burnout pastor in an unhealthy church, he's trying to do all the ministry himself. And so is Ephesians 4 a key takeaway in in your book or what you focus on here?

SPEAKER_01 13:03

I believe so. Yeah. And even, yeah, I did my doctoral dissertation and really rooted it in the book of Ephesians, which is such a great letter for the theology of the church. But yeah, as pastors, I don't know, going back to what you said something earlier about firefighting. Sometimes we need to be a firefighter. Sometimes that can be a little bit of addictive, and we enjoy being the hero. I mean, I had a professor in seminary who made us repeat after him in class one day. I am not the Messiah. And we have to remind there is one savior, and I am not him, and I'm just an under-shepherd. And I'm I'm called to lead, but I'm also called to give away ministry and give people permission to do things and delegate and you know what Jethro advised Moses. You can't, you know, you're gonna wear yourselves out if you're handling all the cases and you don't raise up other men who can handle these cases. And so I just see that as a model, you see that principle in scripture. You see Paul setting it apart, you know, raising up elders and the churches he established. And you know, I know in many churches, you know, you're just trying to find a few elders or a few deacons, and that's great. You want to find men qualified to fill those roles, but boy, just you know, the ladies need guidance, you know, the nursery needs guidance, you know, Sunday school teachers, Bible study leaders. And then, you know, and you think about the men who aren't gifted maybe in teaching or music, they may be great safety volunteers. They may have great facility skills. And so, you know, just helping to equip and identify people to carry out the work of the ministry. And once you you kind of get people in charge of these things, they can kind of take it over so that you don't have to give your time and attention to these things if you focus more on preaching and teaching.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

And that really is the Moses and Jethro principle there and of delegation. And I love the the uh contrasting definitions if you you give of what a pastor's job or task is in your book. You you say one of the definitions is a pastor's job is to preach, pray, study, and meet with people. And as you've already said, we know that's biblically based, and if a pastor is not doing those things, then we've got a problem. Right. But you expand it. And and you say that a pastor's job is to preach, pray, study, and be intentional to recruit, organize, and equip people for the advancement of God's kingdom. Could you speak more to what you're meaning there?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I I think it's you know, even as you preach and teach, you know, we're called, what's our calling? The Great Commission is to make disciples, is to make people mature in Christ. And you know, our people, not everyone's coming to church and ready to take on a job or responsibility, but it's the body of Christ, and the body has many parts. And as a pastor, asking God to give us wisdom and vision, okay, how who who are the hands and the feet and the different parts of the body that can do mercy and outreach and teaching and children's ministry, seniors ministry, and you know, it can begin very small in a very infant form, but as it grows and matures, I think I think pastors developing people, and we're in the people business, right? And and we're gonna develop them some sense in our preaching and teaching, but in those small groups on one-on-one times, helping to, you know, encourage people to grow and develop their gifts.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

So do you think pastors, in a sense, have limited themselves? Because you use David, King David, as an example of this, uh expanded definition, if you will. And you say that King David sought after God with his whole heart, but he also ran a country. You know? So I think pastors, as pastors, sometimes we we limit ourselves that we're preaching, we're studying, we're shepherding. But we we have not put that leadership hat on at the level that we should. Do you believe that's true? And and what would cause a pastor to begin to think differently in that regard?

Scalable Principles For Small Churches

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yeah, I I don't know. I I think on one level there's the professionalization of the ministry, and sometimes the people in church might think, oh, well, that's the pastor's job. And there are certain things that the pastor and the elders are uniquely called to do. But I think for the church leadership saying, No, no church, you know, we're we're called to equip you to do the work of the ministry. So I think it's it's educating ourselves as pastors, educating our people, and and and I don't know, once again, just wanting to see people develop their gifts and encourage them and not let people be limited. And sometimes people come to church and they just need healing for a while. But you you want to see people uh serving in in ways that are a blessing.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Absolutely. In your book, you have chapters that are interviews with four different pastors. And uh that stood out to me because I've I'd in research work did some interviewing with pastors, and it's a fascinating thing. Yes. You you really see in yourself in the mirror when you're interviewing pastors, seeing some of the same strengths and weaknesses at times. But what stood out to you most in those interviews?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah, one one theme that came out was stakeholders or or key influencers. And in each of the the four pastors we interviewed, me, my publisher, you know, some were pastoring a historic church, established church, a church plan. It was a variety of of you know kind of life cycles of each church, but just recognizing so much of the pastor's job. Whether you're coming into a new situation or you've been in a church for a long time, what does it mean to work well with your elders with the key influences of the church and have really good relational capital, be on the same page vision-wise for the church? Some of our conversations were on those things, and you know, one, yeah, one pastor we talked with, he was following prior pastor had a moral failure. And you step into that situation, and you know, are there, you know, and just and you need a lot of practical wisdom. You know, yeah, every church context, you're stepping into situations where you want to be sensitive and be wise, you know, listen, but build, but build up that capital, build up that rapport with your people so that they can follow your lead and work with you for you know the growth of the church and its ministry.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

And so those interviews must really reflect the what you said earlier, and that is every church is different. Yes. So all the challenges these pastors were facing are are were different.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

And they are different. And and so for a pastor to read and see there's nothing new under the sun.

unknown 20:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

And those challenges that they were they were facing may be unique, but there's something you could learn from them.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah. Yeah, there were some commonalities between them, but there were a lot of key distinctions. And you know, and you know, sometimes you're you may have elders that are running ahead and doing great ministry, or you may be in a church where elders are tired and not really eager to, you know, take any more responsibility. And you know, wasn't mean to raise up new new leadership within an existing leadership structure. You know, how fast do you change things? Do you, you know, when you're a church planner, you know, you're the guy, you're you're leading and you know, trying to make the best decisions for the future of the church. You know, you arrive at church, it's been around for 80 years, change may be slow. Right. And and how do you do that wisely? You know, and make sure that there's buy-in, that the key key influencers and key stakeholders in church are on board with, yep, yeah, we we believe this is a new direction that the church needs to go into.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

You devoted an entire chapter to crisis mitigation in your book. Is is that a need that is growing? I I asked that question, but I think I already know the answer. But let me ask you in a different way, why did you feel that was a a need that it needed an entire chapter to devote to? Yeah.

Ephesians 4 And Delegation

SPEAKER_01 21:27

I think you know, we live in an age of liability. We lived in an age of threats of abuse, lived in an age of safety concerns. You know, it's interesting, you know, even as we were finishing this book and getting ready for publication, every month for the last six months, I've been contacted by a church asking for help with developing their safety team. And just what does that look like? Not that they were facing any imminent threats, but just, you know, what are the things. That you need to be aware of in a church. I mean, because a church is a church supposed to be open, welcoming, friendly, but it can be a soft target, whether it's, you know, people wanting access to children or you know, influence things in unhealthy ways. But you also have other concerns like, you know, you know, we at our church we do CPR training twice a year because we have a lot of seniors and want to be prepared if we ever have to be in a situation to address a medical emergency. Anyway, it you know, there's all kinds of categories of of safety and and crisis that you know, what you know, what does it look like when your youth go on an overnight retreat? And do you have good procedures and protocols in place for their for their good and protection?

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Trevor Burrus And often in a little church or smaller church, these are issues we're not thinking through very thoroughly. Yeah. And what would you say to the pastor that you know here's the horror stories that are in our culture of abuse and crisis? I mean, working with people is a messy business. Yes. But we've we've heard of just some really damaging experiences that have hurt churches and organizations, denominations for decades and decades. And that could be so intimidating that it would cause the pastor to say, you know what, I don't want to do, I don't want to do this for a lot of things. I mean, I I hear these hard, the worst stories in in the in the world, and I don't want to be a part of that. But that really is the enemy uh means of discouragement. Yes. And so what would you say to a pastor, there's a way to mitigate these kind of crises?

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Right. Yeah, I I think it's just doing an an objective risk assessment and just talking with your leadership about what, you know, because not some some risks are very my you know, very unlikely, and others are more, yeah, and you can be overwhelmed trying to, you know, you know, we we live in a culture that some of it obsesses over safety. There, there's that too. And but you but what is wise, what what what you know, what is our responsibility as the lead shepherds of our church to you know keep our congregation safe, or or even just you know, making good decisions on you know child policies and wedding policies and other things. And there's the things we we address in the book just to give some tools and guidance, and often in smaller churches, maybe borrowing from a larger church or a mother church on things that have been well thought through over years. And so this book, I think, hope it gives a little boost. And you can't tackle everything in a day. It it it may say it takes months and years to develop some of these things in a church, and you can grow with it as you prioritize what needs to be dealt with now and what can wait for later.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

Yeah, and and so we're talking with uh Tucker York, he's the executive pastor at Westminster PCA in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, but also the author of the brand new book, Healthy Churches Grow. And you deal with very practical things just like that for a pastor to begin to think how can we put these policies in into place? You also talk uh extensively in the book about strategic planning. And perhaps this goes back to the pastor who is in that firefighting mode. He he he's he's in the here and now, he's dealing with issues issue by issue, and he's failing failing to think long term.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

What is strategic planning and how can a pastor begin to engage in that?

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yeah, yeah. Strategic planning is developing vision and setting some goals that that aren't gonna be fulfilled without some concerted effort and intentionality. And they need and they really have to fit your culture. You know, what how has God called and designed your church? You want to be you know a witness to your community. And strategic planning could be you know dreaming about facility needs, developing new ministries, doing new outreach. It can be any number of things. And I and in the book we talk about just beginning with a few things, just you know, baby steps to begin with, or we we call them quick hits, even just a few simple things. Boy, you know what? The nursery could use painting. Okay, great. Let's do something, let's start with the do, let's do the easy things first, but then oh, well, maybe we need a nursery coordinator, or maybe you know, we have a bunch of kids, but we're gonna need a youth center, you know, a youth space down the road. And so it's just you know, it's just like with our homes, you know, home improvements, you know, there's there's home maintenance and there's home improvements, right? And you know, churches can have like more of a maintenance approach. And you some you need maintenance to preserve your building and preserve your ministries. But when we think about kind of home improvements or church improvements, so to speak, you know, where can we expand our vision and and and make more capacity to bring in more people or to reach our community or just improve things that uh need you know improvement.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Yeah, that's such a good illustration. We spend so much time on maintaining as you said, which is necessary. Yeah, it is necessary. But we lose the the engagement in the future and what what could be advanced. Yes. How could we grow? How could we reach more people? Right. How could we improve what we're doing? Right. I was thinking as you're talking, I was thinking about Jesus saying that the children of this world often are wiser than the children of light. And you use that term of common grace principles, and you see the world using these principles to expand entrepreneurship and corporations. Yep. And yet, why would the church have a low and small vision?

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Yes. Yeah, because in the world is motivated by prophet. That's not our motive. Our motive is to make kingdom disciples, to reach people with the gospel. And so I think you know, ways that whether it's the foreign mission field, cross-cultural ministry, or local outreach in our communities, just wanting to how can we be good stewards in the time and place which God has called us to try to maximize our impact for the gospel.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

You also devote a whole chapter to leadership development. Could you speak more to that?

Stakeholders And Relational Capital

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, every every pastor I I I we interviewed kind of almost nothing to hang their head, but they always feel like, oh, I'm not doing enough about leadership development. And I think that for you think about what Jesus did. He poured himself into these 12 men for three years and then turned the ministry over to them as he departed and says, I'm going away, I'm giving you my Holy Spirit. And, you know, I've always was struck by Robert Coleman's classic book, The Master Plan of Evangelism, and just those simple principles of investing in those. What Paul says to Timothy, you know, you know, impart these things, teach these things to men who will be able to teach others. We're, you know, Harry Reeder, I know you're a fan of his work. He talks about the church should be a leadership factory. And just trying to, whether it's developing leaders for the you know, the direct benefit of the church or developing people who are doing things in our community in business and politics and public life. You know, I it's just and and we have the best, you know, leadership teaching, the best leadership principles in the world. And even in the business community, the the best leadership management books are very consistent with biblical principles on you know uh servant leadership.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Yeah, so for that pastor that's trying to wear all the hats, yeah, really this is a a scriptural rebuke because he is uh not only burning himself out, but he really isn't fulfilling the role that God is giving him to do, which is to impart himself and to duplicate himself. And as Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ. We're supposed to be generating more leaders in the church and in the world. You also speak of how there's a famine of leadership in our culture today.

unknown 30:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

And what has led to that?

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Yeah, I I think the the failure in leadership in society, you know, from key institutions and government and public life, I think there's you know, whether it's greed or materialism or just the the idols of our age have worn down and and blinded people from uh God's calling for people to exercise leadership that's sacrificial, humble, you know, faithful, mission-centered. And you know, I think there are there are some little pockets of movements within the business and nonprofit world that have a lot of consistency with biblical leadership. But I think as a church, as you know, a secular culture has resisted church influence. I think as church leaders, you know, we're called to be salt and light and we're called to equip our people. And we want to bless, you know, the culture with biblically minded people who are courageous, strong and courageous, and can be influencers.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Sure, sure. I'm curious, are you a sports fan?

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

I'm a big sports fan. So you see also in the sports world where leadership results in victory and where poor leadership results in failure. Any examples of that?

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Oh boy, just Indiana University winning the national championship. Right, who would have thought? And just leadership and just radical transformation from a school that was the doormat of the big 10 years ago in football, and just with leadership and direction and vision, and there's other good examples too. Just, you know, but just teamwork and accountability and vision and goals and discipline, boy, it makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

I'm a big Philadelphia Eagles fan, so I hope that the New York Giants signing uh John Harbaugh.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Right. Because that's a great leader.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

From what we know, he's a great leader. So uh maybe they'll be better, which is bad for us. You have a chapter on pastors transitioning. Yes. And uh you you note how that's uh that's also a very intimidating uh process. Could you speak more to what you're getting at in that chapter about pastors transitioning?

Crisis Mitigation And Safety

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Yeah, in that chapter, I'm making the appeal to my fellow pastors with the humble reminder, we are all interim pastors. You know, unless the unless the Lord is coming back in our lifetimes, and I pray he does, we are called to serve for a time, for a season, and there is wisdom in preparing for your departure. Moses prepared for his departure, Elijah prepared for his departure, David, Jesus, you know, John the Baptist, Paul. You you see several phenomenal transitions of leadership in the scriptures that are very intentional. And I try to glean from those principles to help us to think about it. And it's hard. It is so hard. You know, as pastors, so much of our identity is wrapped up in who we are as pastors, and you know, and there's so much cultural pressure on retirement and all that. And, you know, common wisdom would say, you know, as you are preparing for departure, you want to leave the church better than you found it, and and you want your successor to thrive and lead your church even to do greater things. And that's Jesus said that to his disciples. You will do even greater things than me. And it's like, well, you know, his disciples didn't die on the cross for sins, but you know, Jesus in his lifetime maybe reached 20,000 people. When you really think about he didn't go very far, geographically speaking, but his disciples and after him just cover the whole Greco-Roman Mediterranean world. Just phenomenal vision of multiplication. So, you know, I think just challenging us to think through how what does leadership look like as your season comes to an end, and we all come to a place where due to health or life circumstances or finances, you know, it's time to you know pass on, pass the baton to to the next leader and wanting your wanting your church to be in a healthy place that's ready for that, that that uh that the core leadership can handle that trans weather through that transition. Because for many churches, the a pastoral transition may be the biggest crisis the church has faced, you know, maybe in a generation. And are they prepared for it and you know following good biblical wisdom and polity to weather through that um transition well?

SPEAKER_00 35:11

I guess it's our sin nature that thinks makes us think that we're gonna be here forever.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

And uh we're you know, so we're that's that's a failure of long-term thinking.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

And so you devote a whole chapter to that. And that takes courage. Takes courage to address that issue, it takes courage for a pastor to think that way.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Well, I've seen it done. I've seen it done at our church, at some other churches, and you know, we had an internal succession from a senior pastor to our youth pastor who became the senior pastor. And it was the character of those two men that helped ensure a smooth transition and and wise leadership on the part of our sessional leaders during that time of transition that just really helped to bring about a smooth transition.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Sure. Well, I told my wife that I was interviewing to you today, uh, she noted in your bio that you have six sons and one daughter. Yes. So it takes leadership to raise a big family.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

By God's grace.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Yes, that's right. That's right. So there's a there's a pastor out there and he feels stuck. He loves the ministry, he loves people, he loves his Lord, but he feels stuck, he feels tired and and burnout. What what words of encouragement would you give him and and and what how how does your book, how do you foresee your book encouraging a man in that state?

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Yeah. Yeah, I'm hopeful that the book will minister and not be one more thing to do or another burden. But yeah, for the man in that situation to be reminded of his calling and to think about, you know, is this worth it? And we talk about that at the beginning of the book and the end of the book, of just that Christ is worthy. He is worthy of us, you know, by the leading of the Holy Spirit to invest ourselves for the good of the church. And yeah, you know, where there's burnout, you know, there's a lot of resources out there, you know, counseling, you know, study, you know, taking breaks. There's there's a lot of wisdom on how to address burnout issues. But I think, you know, where my book can help is just giving some practical guidance on what are some steps to take, and and they can be baby steps at first. You know, you don't need to take leaps and bounds, but finding ways to communicate with your existing leadership, with potential leadership, with with folks in your church and community, hey, can we work together to develop some some new ways of doing ministry that you know offload burdens? And and and you know, when new things happen, it generates a lot of enthusiasm, encouragement. You know, one of the pastors we interviewed talked about a few years ago when they they hadn't done a VBS in years. And then they brought it back, and it just it just rejuvenated the community and it brought people together. And and the people are like, we can do this, and it built relationships. So there's just a lot of benefits to you know working with your people to say, okay, what what can we do to help, you know, bless our community, do some projects together, and and help generate some ministry momentum.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

So I I hear you saying of at the very foundation, the core of that answer is that the pastor's not alone. And yeah, he needs to stop thinking like he's alone and pull in the people that are are with him.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Yeah, it's a team approach. You you gotta work with people to be effective.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Sure. Yeah, sure. And and to celebrate small wins. Yes. So that BBS God gives us those small wins we need to take time to celebrate and give thanks for.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Yeah. So we're we're thankful to have Tucker York with us, executive pastor at Westminster, as well as author of Healthy Churches Grow, the pastor's guide to reducing chaos, creating momentum, and leading his church to health. And we're thankful that you listening can tune in and gain some wisdom. And we hope that you'll pick up the book. I want to be selfish though, right now. Our church, Lebanon Valley Presbyterian Church, was planted five years ago. And and so I'd like your wisdom for a church at our stage, five years in. What advice would you give to us? We're we just started officer training uh about a year ago. And how can we as a young church pursue health now rather than having to correct dysfunction later?

Strategic Planning And Momentum

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Right. Yeah, I think as you develop uh these officers and just being clear on your your you know, biblical doctrinal standards, you wanting you know faithful men who who love Christ, who love the church. And from the get-go, saying that communicating them that we're a team and we're gonna work together to to build the body, being clear on the mission. And there's the biblical mission of you know, worshiping and growing in the word and doing outreach, but then even having a conversation about the particular why has God called Lebanon Valley Preterian Church this community and what's our unique, what are some unique features of because we can't be all things to all people. You have to focus and make decisions. So there may be some some of those discussions over where do you concentrate and focus your efforts with the people God's given you, with the opportunities you have in your community. And then, you know, as you develop ministry structures, continue to have clarity, continue to continue to evaluate are these fit within the scope? Because there's gonna be more than enough things out there, there's gonna have to be things you have to say no to. Right. And you need some you know definition of for, okay, well, how do we make those decisions? Of what do we say yes to, what do we say no to? And that kind of builds into the structure and DNA of who you are as a church. But being clear on that, when there's disagreement, having constructive dialogue, really following biblical peacemaking, that's a huge piece of it because you know, conflict can be so toxic in a church. But conflict is not necessarily a bad thing. Conflict can be a clarifying thing and an opportunity to gain understanding, to really determine you know the direction and focus. And some of us can be conflict averse, and sometimes you got people in the church who love conflict. But I think just following good pe biblical peacemaking and then just building trust and goodwill. I think as you as your congregation recognizes and approves men who are going to be ordained and installed as elders and deacons, having that great rapport that there's trust and communication. And if there's ever, you know, miscommunication or a mistake, you know, one of the pastors we interviewed, he acknowledged like there were some serious mistakes that he and his session made. And when they apologized their congregation, you know, it's humbling, but it built such goodwill and trust and renewed, okay, yep, you know, we have to work through these things. So just just you know, following good biblical principles of humility and trust and servant leadership and communication, I think are going to bode well for organizational health.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

Well, thank you for your service, not only to your local church and its influence into other churches like ours in the Presbyterian community, but your service to the broader church by writing this book. I don't know if my trainees in the officer program here at Lebanon Valley would be happy because now I want to add one more book to the help the churches grow. More required reading. Take your time. Take your time. But this is an excellent book. I'd encourage everyone that's listening to go on Amazon right now, could be at your house tomorrow, maybe as fast as Amazon is. But thank you, Tucker, for being with us and talking about this excellent work. Thank you, Cisco.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

It's been my pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

I appreciate it. Thank you for listening to Catechizing Conversations. Again, encourage you to pick up a copy of Healthy Churches Grow by Tucker York. And let's pray that God does great work in Lancaster, Lebanon, all over the Susquehanna Valley Presbytery, and uh and beyond. The Lord bless you. We're glad that you joined us today.