Why The Health And Wealth Gospel Fails The Suffering (Part 5)

The prosperity gospel sounds like hope until you watch what it does to people who are suffering. We sit down as pastors and ministry workers to name the core engine behind the health and wealth gospel and the Word of Faith movement: the “little gods” doctrine and the practice of positive confession, where believers are told they can speak things into existence. We connect that message to the oldest temptation in the Bible, Genesis 3, where the lure is not only pleasure or rebellion but divinity: “you will be like God.”

Along the way, we react to well known statements from teachers like Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn, then slow down to ask basic Bible questions: Who actually speaks creation into being? What does Scripture mean when it says we are made in God’s image? How should Christians pray for healing without turning prayer into a demand or turning faith into a weapon? We also bring in the wisdom of the Reformed confessions the Westminster Confession, Heidelberg Catechism, and Belgic Confession to keep the creator creature distinction clear, especially when suffering makes people vulnerable to false promises.

We also trace the history. Using research often cited on this topic, we talk about E. W. Kenyon and the New Thought movement and why modern “manifestation” teaching can feel spiritual while borrowing a mind over matter framework foreign to historic Christianity. Finally, Hebrews 11 helps us tell the truth: faith does not guarantee outcomes. God sometimes delivers, sometimes sustains, and always does what is right.

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Transcript

Welcome And Ministry Updates

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Welcome back to Catechizing Conversations. My name is Sisko Victor. I'm a pastor at Lebanon Valley Presbyterian Church in Lebanon County, and I'm joined today by Micah Natal, lead staff at Disciple Makers Lebanon Valley College. Welcome back, Micah. Excited to be here again. Yeah, thanks for taking the time to do this in these summer months. And uh how's your summer going so far?

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Oh, it's going great. It's been very busy with prepping for the next semester conference conferences and trainings. And on top of that, we're also moving to a uh to a different rental property. And we're excited for that. Have more more space to host students and just be able to be a blessing to them. So yeah, a lot a lot going on.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Yeah. So even in your summer months, you're preparing for the school year. Micah's on campus at the Lebanon Valley College with disciple makers and a great ministry. Young men that you're discipling, you can really tell their love for the Lord, young women as well. And uh some of them have become members over at our church, and we're grateful for their their heart for Christ, heart for the church. Praise the Lord. Yeah. So if you're in the Lebanon County area, get involved in Disciple Makers, Lebanon Valley College. If you're coming on campus there, then you have a good network of believers.

Why Prosperity Teaching Is Dangerous

SPEAKER_00 2:01

So Mike and I have been talking about the health and wealth gospel and the danger of it. And uh, we've been looking at this movement that's called Health and Wealth, sometimes called Prosperity Gospel, other times it's called Word of Faith. And we're we're looking at why it's wrong, why it's hurtful. It's been around a long time, it's nothing new. Nevertheless, it still has an impact. It's still still got those big names out there spreading the message, and and uh we we want to issue a warning, if you will, right? We want to say this is not the true gospel, and and here's why. So we're gonna look at two doctrines at the heart of this prosperity movement. There's several, but these two dominate and and they kind of bleed through the whole movement. What are they?

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Yeah. The first one being the little gods doctrine, and the second one the belief that believers can speak things into existence.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

I guess that those two connect, right? I mean, if you're a little god, then you can speak things into existence. Yeah, I know. I mean, you know, you're superman, yeah, so it doesn't sound out outrageous. But no, that you that's true. We laugh about it, but that this kind of bleeds through the whole thinking of of the of the movement.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Yes, yes. And it, you know, at first glance it it may sound even Christian, because like, well, yeah, speak things into existence and little gods, like to most people, it's like, well, yeah, we're we're sons of God. So of course, we're in every sense of the word like God. And for most of these individuals, they they would quote Bible verses, which we'll actually take a look at in a little bit. And and they use words like faith, they they speak God's promises, which you and I would would do that. We believe in the promises of God, and we would speak it onto ourselves when we doubt, right? But beneath the surface, I think lies something a lot older. In fact, I think these teachings have far more in common with new thought, spirituality, and modern manifestation teachings than historic Christianity. And I and I'd love to talk about that soon. And I'm gonna make a strong claim in the outset.

Genesis 3 And The Lure

SPEAKER_02 4:31

I think the prosperity gospel's teaching on little gods and positive confession is what they use to say, you know, the manifestation, is simply the serpent's temptation in Genesis 3, repackaged to the modern church. See, the the first false doctrine ever preached was preached by Satan, right? In Genesis 3 5. Genesis 3 5 says, For God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God. Notice the temptation. It's not merely a disobedience, not merely pleasure, divinity. You will be like God.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Right. And and that is the bent of our heart is to want to be in control, is to usurp authority over God. Now, these word of faith teachers are never gonna say that's the case. They're not gonna say I'm usurping authority over God, but that God wants me to be like Him. Right. And therefore, in a sense, then a powerhouse of ability, you know, that I can lay hands on the sick and see them recover. I I could speak to the storm and and see it be still, right? Like Jesus did. Peace be still. Yeah. So it but that that's the nature of the sinner is to want to be in control. It's that that is Satan's temptation is hey, you come on up here and you you sit on the throne.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

I mean it's it's the same temptation, right? Just repackaged. And I I mean, listen to this quote from Kenneth Copeland. This is in a broadcast that he had in 1987, and it's widely quoted. I mean, this isn't new. He's he has said this in different ways, even more recently, but this is by far the the most quoted. He says, You do not have a God in you. You are one. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah, I well, it sound it sounds so outrageous, but what they're gonna try to say is the fact that we're made in the image of God gives us now that we're Christian, gives us these godlike powers. But it really helps you understand why they think they can do what they say they can do, which is heal the sick. I mean, because if you are a little God, you're a little Jesus, then you should be doing what Jesus does or did, which was heal the sick. Right? So that whole motivation comes out of that that thinking, which is heretical.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Yes, yeah. And and he actually doubles down because he he says that Adam in the Garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh. So he attributes to Adam deity that that God was Adam. Adam was God in the flesh.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Rather than a representation. I mean, rather than being an ambassador.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

And that's where they would define image, right? And we'll get to that in a little bit. They would they would define image differently than I think you and I would would define it. And that's where the theology is coming from. This idea that if we were made in the image of God, we're just like God almost in every sense, except for a couple things. And I think that we are being restored to that every day, is the way that they would see it.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Right. Right. Yeah, it was some kind of superhero for Christ's sake. Yeah, and then this is where the misunderstanding comes in because a lot of these guys think that we're against someone being healed. I mean, uh right now I have family members that are very sick, and I'm praying that God would heal them. But notice how I said that. I'm praying that God will heal them. Yeah, I'm not gonna heal them. I'm not I mean, there's no power in my hands that's gonna cause them to be raised up. It's it's God, if it be his will. Because they say you shouldn't pray if it be your will. But if you again, if you think you're a little God, then your will be done. You you get it done. But it's so it's so we laugh about it, but it's devastating because there's people that are truly sick and they want to be well and they're not getting well, and so then they think that they in some way are punished by God or don't have enough faith. This is what it all comes back to, and and that is spiritual malpractice, it's pastoral malpractice, it's it's error.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Yeah, it's it's so true, and and it and and it really boils down to identity, even this whole doctrine. I mean, that this is all from a sermon series called Following the Faith of Abraham. So you can look it up on YouTube, it's all there. And and their idea is that it's not that we're merely made in God's image or God's representatives, it just means that we we are God manifested in the flesh. And that's what they saw about Adam. That's what how they see themselves as. And of course, they would say that's why they would say little gods. They wouldn't say we're not big G God, but they would say we are little G gods, same authority and power sent out in that authority and power, but not necessarily God in the flesh. Right. However, that's that language is only utilized in scripture towards one person.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

The Father and the Son, the Spirit, right? Like that or one being. And and that's that being God.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah, it's it's clear. It's the height of arrogance. I mean, it it's beyond arrogance. It's it's it's not too strong to say it's satanic. Because it's it's Satan saying, Oh, I will ascend to the highest height. I will do this, I will do that. No, I mean what is man? You know, it's like God speaking, who who are you?

unknown 10:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

He's saying to Job, Where were you when I created the world? I mean, it's such a delusion. But it doesn't sound

Little Gods Claims Put To Test

SPEAKER_00 10:55

so outrageous when you look at the Eastern mystic thought and philosophy that utilizes the same kind of language. And in fact, that that's what we would argue this comes from. Word of faith is not rooted even in Pentecostalism. It's it's rooted in a new age, Eastern mysticism, new thought, paganism.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yeah. Absolutely. So John 1 14, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory of his only son from the Father, full of grace and truth. So scripture reserves those descriptions for Jesus alone.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

No mere man or woman.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Amen. Amen to that. There's another quote here that is actually by by Benny Hinn. I'd love to hear your reactions to this. This is in a famous sermon. You can also find it on YouTube, and he said this God came from heaven, became a man, made man into little gods, went back to heaven as a man. And the same message he actually continues and says this are you a child of God? Then you are divine. I mean notice notice the shift.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Right. Total misunderstanding of the God man, total misunderstanding of Christ, fully man, fully God, total misunderstanding of anthropology and what man is. It's just so bizarre. Historic Christianity says that we as Christians are adopted children. We're not deity.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Amen. I mean, God is so behemothly against it that he actually proclaims it all over the scriptures, especially in the book of Isaiah. I'd love to just read a couple of these passages. I mean, I I think about Isaiah 43, 10, where God says, Before me no God was formed, nor nor there shall be any after me. I am the first and the last. Beside me there is no God, right? Verse 6, and then 45. He he says this, I am the Lord, and there is no other. Right? And and I understand that for many of them would be like, well, we're not claiming to be him. And it's like, but but you're claiming, you're claiming to the point of grasping his divinity, though. And and his claims are exclusive. There's no other gods, no but no big gods, no little gods, no medium gods.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Like you're you're making promises that you can't keep. And you're making promises to hurting people and God's people often oftentimes that you cannot back up. Yeah there was a so-called prophet in my proximity of my family, and he had said to a family member, I'll try to be as vague as possible, but had said of a family member that they would not die. They'll see another year of life. You know, this prophecy. Well, they died. They didn't see another year of life. But you know what gets me is no one called called them out on it. Now, if you were in the Old Testament, we have to take you up back and stone you because you're a false prophet. No, I don't think we should do that. Don't get me wrong. But no one said, hey, they lied. You're just gonna let that go? I mean, you said someone's gonna live another year and it didn't happen. But this is the kind of foolishness

Healing Prayer And God’s Will

SPEAKER_00 14:52

that happens when you skew the lines between God and man. You're a mere man. I I you you can't promise people things you can't back up.

unknown 15:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

It's like say, come to my church and your life will never be the same again. How do I know that? You may come to my church and God has you in a period of suffering, and that your life is never the same again because it's worse in the physical sense. But God's heavy hand of discipline is on you, or it's a time of suffering and his providence that he allows. We can't make these claims. Man, making these claims is so outrageous.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Yeah, that's so true. And I was gonna say, this is catechizing conversations, right? You are the confessional we are confessional. Yeah, we're confessional.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

We have a high view of the confessions.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

No, I think this is uh I mean this this brings back uh Westminster Confession, at least in the 2-1. I think you read this in in one of our podcasts. If yeah, I don't know if you you want to take over there, but like yeah, it's I think it's infinite in being and perfection.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Only God is infinite in being and perfection. And and so, yes, the Westminster Confession makes that careful distinction between the creator and the creature. God is infinite, we are finite. God is self-existent, we are dependent, God is eternal, we are created. And that gulf is never going to disappear. Even in glory.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

That's good. Yeah. Yeah. I I also think about the the Heidelberg Heidelberg catechism, uh, is question six, you know. God created man good and after his own image. And I think that's important because it's image, not not deity, not necessarily likeness, not godhood, but but his image, his it's a it's a divine title that's given from God to man. There isn't specific things that make us image of God, right? Because we can play that game all day long and realize that the moment that we say, well, it's it's it's consciousness, well, there's people that are unconscious. Or the moment that we say it is rationality, well, what happens to those who aren't rational? Are they not made in the image of God, right? We play that game all day long. And I I think it boils down to it is a God-given title and a God-given ordination of you are made into my image. And I think it it has nothing to do with you are basically a little image of God, a little replica, if you would call it, but it's it's a lot deeper than that.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Right, right, yeah. These things are so western too, it's because it it's we want to be the powerful one.

unknown 17:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

We want to be the mighty one. And again, just to try to clarify some misunderstanding, we don't have a low view of man, we have a high view of man. Yeah, and if someone's sick, we desire them to be well. You know, if I if I get sick, I I want you to pray for me, Micah. Pray that God would heal me. Amen. You know, because I don't I I have uh nine children and I feel like I have a lot of time left. I would want you to pray that God would raise me up if I was seriously sick. Yeah. But you do that, and I know your faith, I know your scriptural knowledge, you would do that knowing God is sovereign. He may not heal me. Our desire, we could pray our desires, we could plead with God. But He is God.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

You're not, I'm not. And I and I would pray, believing James 1. You know, when when he says that if anybody, if anybody, in essence, like desires wisdom, let him ask God, for he gives generously to all without reproach, and it'll be given to him. But you know, he he says he says for us to to ask in faith with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. And he says, That man was not supposed to receive anything from the Lord. That man is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways, which it insane because the Greek word is where we get the root psychosis from. So he's like, Don't be psychotic in your prayers, right? And and yes, I would I would pray believing that the Lord, if it is his desire that he will heal you, and I'm praying that he will. Right. However, I also believe that I also believe and and understand that there have been many individuals in the scriptures that have asked Jesus Christ, Paul being one of them, to heal them, and he says, My grace is sufficient.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

And this suffering is is gonna be utilized for an understanding that we might not grasp now in this side of eternity. Right. But I I I will understand that, but believing in faith and believing that that what Jesus says is true, and that whatever you ask in my name, I I will render to you. And so yeah, we we we aren't double-minded.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

No, we believe in God that He knows best.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Exactly. We are we are we're saying we know that you desire this, we know that you're able, but I'm submitting this to you, saying, God, you know I don't, right, but I trust.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Right. Yeah, and and we ought to also also be quicker to pray for spiritual healing. That what's most important is not that the person recover physically, though that's our desire. But what is most important is that their soul is well and healed and filled with the Spirit of God and ready for eternity. I mean, you go into hell with a healed body, with a strong body, but you're spending eternity in hell. What's most important is that we pray for the salvation of people that are suffering. And and if they are believers in suffering, we we pray that God would hold them up in the midst of that dark shadow of his providence. May he be pleased to raise them up, but we yield to you. Amen. That's really good. That's really good. And that that goes for prosperity as well. We're we're not against people being having wealth. Right. I mentioned in a one podcast before, you know, we want Mercedes, we want bigger homes. And I thought I may need to clarify there's nothing wrong with driving Mercedes, right? I mean, nothing wrong with having a big home. If if God is giving you enough wealth that you can have an item of of great value and still be supporting the kingdom of God and and and so forth, that we're not anti-capitalists, right? Do you know you can drive your Mercedes, drive I would like love to have a Tesla. They run pretty expensive. So we're not against things, you know. And we care, we want to care for the being, the the the material world of an individual as well. But we're talking about these extremes from this prosperity health and wealth gospel.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Yeah, that's really helpful. Well, I know that you've been looking into a lot of the history of this movement. And we

Creator And Creature In The Confessions

SPEAKER_02 22:08

we both have, but I think you've done even more extensive research than me, at least when it pertains to, you know, where where did this come from? Really? Where where did the the movement even come from of the prosperity gospel movement? You know, we're talking about these doctrines, and we'll come back to these doctrines in a second, but I think it's helpful to to just ask the question where does this come from?

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yeah. Yeah. And this is where the book, uh A Different Gospel by D.R. McConnell um is invaluable because he does trace where this these teachings come from. And what he's going to argue is they don't come from Kenneth Hagen, which often is seen as the godfather of this word of faith movement. You know, all the big names will attribute to him their his influence on them. But what McConnell's going to do as an former Oral Roberts professor of all places, and a charismatic himself, he's going to argue that this word of faith theology comes from a man named E. W. Kenyon, born in 1867, died in 1948. He was a New England preacher, educator, and writer. And McConnell argues that Hagen basically just rips off large chunks of Kenyon's writings and implements them into his preaching. So Kenyon was not even a Pentecostal. But what he did was he borrowed from and extracted philosophies from the New Thought Movement and Christian Science into Christianity. So he went to college at Emerson College in Boston in the 1890s, and it was at that time the hotbed of the New Thought Movement, which is was a metaphysical mind over matter philosophy that taught that the human mind, prop properly directed, has the power to create reality. So in the New Thought Movement, it was taught that thought and speech are creative forces, that illness and poverty are mental and spiritual conditions that can be overcome through the power of positive declaration. So New Thought was not Christianity at all. Its roots were in transcendentalism. Some of the writings of Phineas Quimby, Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science. But this was the world that shaped E. W. Kenyon.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

So, in other words, New Thought taught that thoughts create reality, words create reality, sickness originates from wrong thinking, and that prosperity can be manifested through belief.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Now everything you just said, you'll hear in word of faith preaching.

unknown 25:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Sounds awesome. As you think so, you are speak those things that are not as though they were, name it, claim it, visualize it, see yourself healed. I mean, you hear all this lingo, it's regurgitated.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Yeah, manifest manifest abundance.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Manifest abundance. Speak your reality. Yeah. I mean, it and there's nothing new about it, but what we want to highlight is this is pagan nonsense. Scripture teaches the power of words. I mean, scripture says life and death are in the power of the tongue. They that love it will eat the fruit thereof. Scripture says in James that the words, your tongue is like a fire, set ablaze of hell, can bring absolute destruction.

New Thought Roots Of Word Of Faith

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Scripture talks about how we bless God with our tongue and yet we curse those made in the image of God. So scripture has a lot to say about words. Scripture talks about lying, talks about speaking the truth. But it does not talk in this metaphysical way that if you say something enough times, it's going to manifest. That is paganism. That is magic. And so that stuff has been implemented into Christianity through the word of faith and prosperity gospel.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Yeah, and we'll get to some of those passages in a little bit. I think it'd be helpful to go through some of those because you're right. They're often used to try to justify that understanding of the scriptures. And and though, you know, people like Charles Fillmore, right? Like the new thought figures may say like manifest your abundance or like the universe responds, or you'll create your future with your words. You know, that you're right. I think they just substitute universe to like faith, right? So like it's the the word of faith people would be like, oh well, we'll change. It's God. Yeah, right. Yeah. The mechanism is similar though. And and you know, when you talk about positive confessions and stuff. So yeah, I think that's a yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

And and it's uh wow, it it's destructive. I mean, it's not only silly, it becomes destructive. It is psychotic. I think you used that word recently. And and the reason why it is, is because think of how man-centered it is. I mean, you're walking you're walking around and thinking, did I have a wrong thought today? You know, did I think poverty, opposite of abundance? Did I think sickness, opposite of health? Did I confess sickness? I mean, it is so psychotic. I mean, it is so traumatic. There's people, again, we giggle in some way about it, but and I think we should mock it, but there's people that really have PTSD living in this world.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Yeah. And you and you would talk to a lot of more of the modern, you know, word-of-faith teachers, and they would often say that Kenneth Higin was was the guy. And and I know that McConnell makes a really good point that he that he wasn't the originate originator of it, which is true. I think he makes a really compelling case in his book. But at least Kenneth Hagin, this is a quote from him that that is often really brought up many times by other teachers, which he says, you can have what you say. So it is. You can have what you say. And at first glance, it's like, okay, what do you mean? And and when you hear, you know, further the amount of times that he says that in his recordings, and actually a majority at least in his writings, is that the idea, I mean, is simple, right? Words release faith is the way that he describes it. Faith creates reality, and reality conforms to your confession. That's how they that's how they describe it, which is oddly familiar to what?

SPEAKER_00 28:59

That Eastern mysticism new thought. Yeah. Yeah. You you speak it into reality. And again, I guess it comes back to thinking you're God. I mean, God spoke and it were created, but he's God and I'm not. Right. And and if I'm having a terrible day, I'm gonna say I'm having a terrible day. I'm not gonna lie and say, I'm great. Because if I can speak greatness into reality, maybe my day will change, right? It's that's so not only silly, but it's damaging. Yeah. We believe in words being meaningful, but we do not believe in this new thought or Eastern mystical magical use of words.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Yeah, I agree. And and Kenneth Copeland says something that at hindsight, I'm like, yeah, it's true. You know, words are the most powerful thing in the universe today. Why? Because according to the word of faith theology, it carries faith force.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Faith force, right. Yeah, not and not instead of saying words are powerful because they start wars, they start fights, you know, you can build somebody up with your words, you can tear them down. But again, it's that magical element that they're using with it. And and that's what we want to highlight. It it's a pagan influence that has come into the preaching. And and young men, young preachers in this world are just regurgitating what these guys have said in the past. It's nothing new. Yeah. Tune into one of the one of the services and don't tune in very long, but just enough to see. It's regurgitated stuff. They keep saying the same thing over and over again in their lives.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

That's right. And you know, it's receive prosperity, speak healing, receive healing, speak success, receive success. And I want to ask you from the scriptures, I mean, who speaks things into existence?

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Yeah, again, that's only God. Yeah, I mean, only Jesus. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean the big difference between us asking God for things, which we're as his children called to do. Right? We're we're to make our request known unto him and and everything give thanks for this as his will concerning us, and uh, and to make our desires known. I mean, that's a relationship. But nowhere does it say that we are demanding what God can and and cannot do and what he will and will not do. That's the height of arrogance. Yeah, amen. Yes, and another verse they use is uh from Romans 4 17 call into existence those things that do not exist. We we spoke about that a little bit. Again, that's God,

Positive Confession And Proof Texts

SPEAKER_00 31:38

not apostles, not pastors, not teachers, not not human beings, mere man.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah, and yeah, that's that's so true. It's it's the subject is always God. Right. And I mean, it just takes a plain reading from Genesis to Revelation. And if you're you're good at just doing basic Bible study, it's like, who's the one who does the most actions? It's God. Like when you look at it, what is God doing? What is he saying? And you're like, okay, yeah, he is the main author of the story here, not not us, not what we what we do. And actually, going back a little bit, you you had mentioned Proverbs 18, verse 21, that says, Death and life are in the power of the tongue. And I and I've I've heard that passage brought up a lot, at least from these teachers.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

It's one of their favorite verses.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

I thought it'd be good for us to I mean they love that verse more than John 3.16. Life and death are in the power of the tongue.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

Yeah, yeah. That's that's uh the passage that I think often is cited, but you know, the proverbs is is wisdom literature, right? So I I yeah, I'd love to hear like what are you what are your thoughts on that passage? Is it is a saying that we can manifest reality? I mean, is this a proof text to what they're saying?

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Yeah, no, I mean it's it's again, as you said, it's a proverb, and so it gives a uh a view of typically how things work in in the world. And it's I think an application of it would be it's it's so much better to build someone up with your words and encourage than it is to tear down. So much better to find out what your child is doing right and accentuate that rather than all that they're doing wrong. And so certainly the proverb is scripture and it's 100% correct, and that is our words matter and how we talk to each other matters. But yeah, to be using it in the sense that by my tongue I can create things.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

What I what I love the most is that they fail to read to read verse 20. Did you notice that? It's you know, and they only he read half of 21. So, like verse 20 says of chapter 18 of the Proverbs, From the fruit of a man's mouth, his stomach is satisfied. He is satisfied by the yield of his lips. And he says, Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits. And the rest of the passage talks about this aspect of the tongue and in an essence what it what it brings, and it's often talking about the destructive nature of what the tongue does upon others and upon self. Right, right. You know, they you know, in other words, the the point is that the words that we speak speak influence influences others in life in lives, really. They they encourage, right? They wound, they deceive, they instruct. I don't think it has anything to do with divine creative power. I mean, the whole proverb has nothing to do with creative power. It has everything to do with inner personal relationships. I mean, right after that, it talks about he who finds a good wife finds a good thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Yeah, right. So so build your wife up with your words and and vice versa. Yeah, not creative power.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, any other thoughts? Yeah, just keep going back to, you know, we're often looked at as quenching the spirit and not believing in God doing mighty things, and and that's incorrect. Uh, we pray that God would do mighty things, and and if God wants to heal somebody, if God wants to heal someone in the last stage of cancer, he it's within his right and power to do so, and he will. But we cannot do that. That's what we mean when we say we're not continuationists, is I don't believe I have the power to heal people. Right. No matter how many times I say it or whatever authoritative worse voice I use to say it. I I plead with God for his will to be done and plead with God that he would help those who are suffering.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Yeah, and I think we could spend a ton of time, but I you know we talked about this in uh in other times, but I think in other podcasts, but I think Hebrews 11 is the way to go, right? I think it destroys this whole manifestation theology. I mean, if if faith creates outcomes, then Hebrews 11 becomes impossible, right? The same chapter describes believers who conquer kingdoms, escape armies, and believers who were tortured, imprisoned, killed, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

I think I think we could understand that faith has has doesn't have a guarantee of outcomes because they all had faith. You read Hebrews 11, they all had faith, and some of them were cut into. So they did not have enough faith to continue to the work.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Right. I don't know. Yeah, you need to teach and preach on Hebrews 11, because last time we did such a good job explaining uh what it means that by faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, and how the saints of old look forward to the Messiah to come. And now for you to point that out is so good, so clear that it was the same children of God, the same people of God, and some were delivered and others were not.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Some God miraculously came in and gave them an escape route, and others he allowed to be defeated in this world, or die, or be executed. And it's the same today. Why do some live and some die? You know, I've heard testimonies of people say, you know, during COVID they were miraculously healed, they were miraculously lifted off of the deathbed. But you know, my grandmother died of COVID. And and that's just one example. So you constantly have this juxtaposition of God doing some things for one and not for another. And at the end of the day, we say God always does what is right. We may not understand the side of heaven, but one day we will understand. And all of God's children, you brought this up in one podcast, uh by the stripes of Jesus, we are healed. All of God's children one day will be healed of all cancer, of all paralysis, of all diabetes, and on and on. The list goes of ailments that mankind has. One day they'll be fully healed. But it may not be in this world.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Yeah, absolutely. I it it and it is according to the plan of God. One of my favorite

Providence, Hebrews 11, And Real Hope

SPEAKER_02 38:31

confessions is the Belgic Confession, which is often neglected in Article 13. You know, it actually says that nothing happens without God's orderly arrangement. Yeah. So reality is governed by by God's providence. And you you brought this up even in in last podcast of how the sovereignty of God was what centered you and and really reminded you of who was the one who was in control of your future and and everything in between. So it's it's not really our declarations like many of these individuals talk about. It's not really our confessions, right. Or our positive speech. It's it's God.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Yeah, and that's why I say the doctrine of sovereignty, the doctrine of providence, will blow this word of faith, prosperity, gospel to smithereens. Yes. It's what will set someone free if the Spirit of God is so willing to open their eyes and as they study the providence and sovereignty of God, you cannot keep going down this route because it is a totally you're talking about two different gods, one true God, one false God. You know, Elizabeth Elliott wrote a story as a fiction story about a missionary woman, a doctor, who went overseas and worked for years and years and years and years with little to no fruit. And the one convert that she had was her assistant, and she misdiagnoses him and gives him the wrong medicine, and he winds up dying. So here's this woman who gave her whole life to ministry and to a certain mission overseas, and it ends in failure. And and basically that's how the book ends. And people wrote Elizabeth Elliott saying, This is the worst book ever. You know, where's the happy ending? Yeah, where's the happy ending? And it's interesting what Elizabeth Elliott referred to. She said, I wrote the book so that people would know sometimes you can do what God said to do, and there not be earthly success.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

That's powerful. Now that book would destroy the prosperity gospel, too. You may do what God calls you to do, what the word of God says for you to do, and it end in humanly speaking in failure. But it's not failure ultimately. It's the people of Hebrews 11 who were sawn and sunder and and lived in caves, and yet God was their God, and they were seeking a better a better city, a heavenly one. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

That's that's so true. And I and I think at the you know, I'd love to just read what what what Calvin said. I think it directly strikes at the little God's theology and everything we've talked about so far. John Calvin puts it this way nothing is more absurd than that man who is nothing should claim for himself anything that belongs to God.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

That's such a good point. It's it's it we we need to be reminded. And he he actually opens up his his institutes in that same and the same way that we have to know ourselves before we know God. Right. Our knowledge, you know, our knowledge of God is is directly tied with our knowledge of self, that we are needy sinners that that need the gospel, that we are we are desperate without without him.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Isaiah's Isaiah's words, woe is me. I'm a man of unclean lips and dwell among a people of unclean lips. I put my hand over my mouth, you know, like Peter when he sees Christ in his glory, jumps over the boat, you know, depart from me. When we see the holiness of God, we're not gonna be coming alongside of him saying, Hey, I'm like you, buddy. We're we're going to be like the priests that couldn't even stand in the temple. We're just gonna say, What what am what is man? What am I that you would even cast your eye upon me?

SPEAKER_02 42:32

Amen. I think in contrast, you know, the the that's a really good point. The the the little gods doctrine says, Well, you're more divine than you realize. But I think the gospel says you're more dependent than you realize. Amen. You know, and manifestation theology says, well, speak reality into existence. But scripture says trust a God who governs reality. And the prosperity gospel says, use faith to control your outcomes. But we you and I both know that biblical Christianity says something different. Use faith to trust Christ.

unknown 43:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

So I think I think the first lie in Eden was you will be like God. And the tragedy is that many modern Christians are hearing the same message with just Christianese repackaged. But scripture says so many better things.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Yeah. Yeah, we're not little gods. We're we're redeemed sinners. And God loves us as redeemed sinners. Yeah, he loves us if we're our if we're broken, if we struggle with depression, if we have cancer, if we can't get out of bed in the morning because of some ailment. If we struggle to walk, God loves us, and He He will not quench the flickering flame, right? He will not bruise the bruise reed. He's tender with his people, and that includes people who are suffering, especially includes people that are suffering. That's better news than any prosperity preacher can give you. And we trust today, if you're listening, and and perhaps you are in a place of suffering, to know the love of God is with you and for you. As the scripture says, you are the apple of his eye, you are his child, you're fought with the precious blood of Christ, and and whether you that suffering is lifted from you, which we we pray, we pray it would be, or whether it remains heavy upon you that you would know the presence of God and ultimately be with him in eternity through Christ our Lord.

Comfort For Sufferers And Closing

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Well, thank you for listening today to Catechizing Conversations. Micah, thank you for joining me again.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Pleasure to be here. This is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

I'm glad that we've done this, and and Lord willing, we'll keep doing it. And as long as people are blessed and hear the truth, we're for it. Amen. Well, again, thank you for joining us for Catechizing Conversations. This conversation for these podcasts, a blessing. Please subscribe, like, and and share. We look forward to talking with you again soon.