The Strength Catalyst

Human-Centered Leadership

• Colleen Boselli • Season 1 • Episode 6

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Liz Milner, Executive Director and facility chaplain at the Correctional Institutions Chaplaincy (CIC) in Northern California, joins Colleen for a conversation on resilience, leadership, and the quiet power of leading with deep purpose. As the head of an organization providing spiritual and emotional care to incarcerated individuals, Liz's work demands extraordinary compassion and steadiness — and in this episode, she explores where that steadiness comes from. Together, Liz and Colleen discuss how understanding your unique combination of strengths can transform even the most challenging aspects of leadership, from navigating difficult feedback to shifting between demanding roles with grace and presence.

This episode highlights how strengths like explaining, connecting, and esteem building can reframe challenges into opportunities for clarity, growth, and deeply human leadership — and what becomes possible when we lead in ways that feel both effective and profoundly aligned with who we are.

Episode Show Notes

You can get your own set of the Introspective Strength Cards online at https://www.introspectivecards.com/

SPEAKER_00

Hello and welcome to the Strength Catalyst, the podcast where, with each episode, we explore what it truly looks like to lead with intention, authenticity, and the wise use of our strengths. I'm your host, Colleen Biselli. I'm an executive coach and a strength strategist, and these conversations are meant to offer something real: practical tools, emotional resonance, and insights you can bring into your own work and life. Some conversations stay with you long after they end. And my human-centered leadership conversation with Liz Milner was one of those. Today's guest, Liz Milner, serves as a prison minister. Work that calls for extraordinary compassion, emotional steadiness, and a deep respect for human dignity. So Liz and I first met during a strength workshop I facilitated for her board. And even in that brief interaction, I remember thinking there was something quietly powerful about her presence that made me want to get to know her story better. So before this conversation, Liz completed the strengths profile assessment. So you'll hear us referring to some of her strengths as we explore how she stays grounded in work that can be both deeply meaningful and emotionally demanding. And what unfolds is a thoughtful conversation about resilience, difficult leadership moments, and what human-centered leadership looks like when we intentionally use the strengths that sustain us. So let's begin. And on that occasion, you and I didn't have a chance to talk one-to-one. So I'm really thrilled that we'll have an opportunity today to consider really how you are maximizing your strengths in service of the very important executive director and facility chaplain roles that you hold. To get us started, I'm eager for you to tell our listeners about your roles and to share the CIC mission. So can you share what you do and why you do it?

SPEAKER_01

I am the executive director of CIC, which stands for Correctional Institutions Chaplaincy. We exist to provide spiritual care for all the incarcerated people in the counties we serve. So we have about 3,500 people incarcerated in the two counties we work in. Our role is to be there with them, to provide care for them as they're incarcerated and go through the crisis of that, to provide for their spiritual needs, their emotional needs, and to be a compassionate companion in the middle of what is often a really, really challenging time in someone's life. So I have nine staff and about 250 volunteers. Takes a lot of people to do the work we do. My roles are divided. So part of my role is to be that executive director, to work with our team and our board of directors to uh set vision, set direction, and supervise the work we do. And then the other part of my job is facility chaplain. That means the chaplain, the spiritual caregiver on site in a specific facility. And for me, that's the women's jail here in Santa Clara County. And so that part of my job is to oversee the programs in that facility that we run. And then also provide direct spiritual care to people who are incarcerated there. So going to see them when they ask to speak to someone, providing notification of the death or illness of a loved one on the outside, if that happens, providing support in whatever way is needed. Also caring for the staff who work there. So getting to know them and caring for them as they go about their very challenging job. So that's what we do. And I've been doing that. I've been working there for 10 years. I've led the organization for the last six. Before that, actually, I volunteered for about 10 years. So I've been there a while, seen a lot of changes. I still can't quite believe when I get up in the morning that I get to go and work as something that I love so much and that brings me so much joy and meaning. So I consider myself very fortunate to be able to do that with a great team of people. A great team of people.

SPEAKER_00

And how did you get into this line of work?

SPEAKER_01

You know, um, I I don't know if you can tell from my accent, I'm not from America originally. I moved here back in the 90s. And over time, when I moved, um, I I'd heard some horror stories about the American justice system and the prisons here and so on. Combined with my faith in God, I was really wondering what is going on in these places and what is the spiritual health of the people in them? Because I had such horrible stories about what was going on. And so honestly, I just started Googling until I figured out who was providing care in the jails for people. And I landed on this organization, CIC, and I just called them up and said, you know, I'm currently working in a church. I'd love to hear what you're doing. Can I come and visit you sometime? And they said yes. Um, so I walked in the jail one Sunday night. I've never been arrested, I've never been in a jail before. And my preconceptions were pretty much shattered just by the strength and the courage and the warmth of welcome that the women incarcerated there gave me. I felt ministered to, I felt cared for. Just listening to their stories and starting to find out more about them captured me. And so I actually volunteered for the organization for about 10 years before I joined as a staff member. I got a lot from that. I'm still learning. Honestly, every day I'm still learning. And I love that.

SPEAKER_00

It's so wonderful for me to have the opportunity in this podcast anyway, to talk to people like you who have found your calling, I guess I would say. You know, you sort of know what you really care about, presumably know what you're good at, which we're going to talk about today, and then have found an environment that really benefits from what is unique and special that you have to offer.

SPEAKER_01

I feel very fortunate. And I I'm still learning, it's not perfect, and I'm learning about the parts of the job I love and the parts that I tolerate. But um, I also get to work with an incredible team of people, and to me, that's very important. And as their leader, I want to make sure I'm pouring into them and learning from them and caring for them the best I can, because it's not a one-person job, it has to be a team of diverse people bringing their strengths to the table to care for people. So that's a great blessing to me, too.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, great. All right. Well, before we talk about your strengths as a leader and how you can bring more of them to your team, I'm curious to know, since you're thinking about the sort of the strengths language in preparation for our conversation today, what do you see as the superpower strength that makes CIC ministries a special organization?

SPEAKER_01

I would say, as a group of people, volunteers and staff, that unconditional willingness to bring compassion and care to the table. We work with people in the jail, some of whom shouldn't be there, but some of whom have really done terrible things and are struggling to move through that. And when I see our team bring a humble, unconditional hope and love to someone who's struggling, I think that's a superpower. The hidden side of that superpower is that when you believe that's true, you can also apply it to yourself. So we all make mistakes, some of which we're very ashamed of. And can we learn to receive that as well as give it? That's really powerful to think about right there.

SPEAKER_00

You know, in preparation for our conversation, you said to me that it's really important for you to be thinking about how you and your team do the work. Um, and certainly sounds like unconditionality and having that mindset is a really important part of it, as you just said there. I'm curious to know in what ways do you bring your unique combination of strengths to shape the how you lead?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I I'm learning a lot about that, and partly through having done the strengths profile. I think when I saw the strengths laid out, I immediately resonated with them because it they do describe that unconditionality, that listening presence and the compassion. But also in my list, there's the flip side, which I think maybe comes out in my executive director role more and hopefully uh setting vision with our team, that of prevention, looking ahead to see what's coming at the organization and our community that I can look ahead to and plan for, and hopefully bring us to a place where we're not going to get hit with an unexpected situation. Um, taking pride in doing an excellent job is really important to me and to our team. Holding really high standards while also holding that unconditional love and compassion to me is something I strive to do and I enjoy doing. I don't want to sacrifice one for the other, if that makes sense. And then I think my seventh strength was that of mission, because clearly you probably wouldn't choose to work in a jail setting unless you felt there was a higher reason to be there. It it's not easy, it's not pretty, it smells bad sometimes, it's hard at work. But that sense of a mission beyond the things you see in front of you motivates me. And I think motivates all of us who who end up working there. So when I looked at those top seven strengths, that really resonated with what I feel like I put out every day when I'm with my team in the jail.

SPEAKER_00

One of the things I know from all the strengths work I've done over the years is that we all have our own set of strength strategies that we can employ or specific strengths that we can use that help us feel more like ourselves, like more in control, more confident, more authentic. And when we know what those are, we can call upon them in those moments when we're feeling stressed, tired, exhausted, frustrated, what up, what have you, as the tools in our toolkit that kind of give us that perk back up again. For me, that is often my organizer strength and my centered strength. So if I've had a grueling day of meetings, um, I always feel better when I finish working before I start dinner. If I sort of lay out my plan, figure out my ingredients, how much time do I have? And just doing that, kind of getting organized, helps me feel like I'm back in control again. I mean, I'm not to say that stuff went on during the day is gonna go away, um, but that helps me feel in control. And before all that, if I use my centered strength to just take a walk with a podcast or with a book or with a friend, and I just put aside for a little while those unanswered emails and I stay present and stay centered, it's like, oh, all right, I'm back to myself again. So my question to you is, you know, what are your superpower strengths? Which ones could you or do you use on the days when you don't get to do the work you most love to do? So think about your realized, unrealized strengths. Do you have certain ones that help you feel in control, confident, happier, able to put the frustrations out of your mind, at least temporarily?

SPEAKER_01

Yes. I mean, I I see it in a few ways, maybe. I mean, let me go back a minute because that duality I have as an ED and someone who got into this role because I wanted to do direct service chaplain work seems to be an issue that a lot of my colleagues who are executive directors or leaders in their organization resonate with. That as you do well at something, you tend to get promoted, and you often get promoted out of what you're doing well at. So because I get so much energy from listening to the stories of the incarcerated and their lives and expressing that sense of unconditional love, whether that be from God or from another human being, I really have learned that I need to factor in some of that direct service work regularly during the week. I almost need to calendar it in so that I have that time to operate in those strengths, as well as set vision and tone and manage stuff uh on the other side. So I think uh finding times in the week and intentionally setting aside times where I get to indulge myself in the work that I started this for has helped. It's not always possible, but it's helped to be more intentional. I also, I'm not yet, I would say, great at this, but if I bring my prevention strength lens to those um feedback sessions with staff, so instead of saying, wow, you really messed up, coming at it and saying, wow, that was a really challenging situation. How can we prevent that happening again? Like, what can we do to help you respond in a different way or change your behavior in some way so that we don't all feel this pain again? That seems to me an easier way to approach giving critical feedback than sitting down and telling someone you really messed up and don't do it again. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00

It does. It does. I can certainly see how that prevention, thinking ahead to what could go wrong, strength of yours, is a superpower in those kinds of situations. And as you uh were suggesting before that, help you stay resilient and full of as much confidence as you can in those challenging situations. In addition to prevention, what other strengths do you or could you use in those feedback sessions that would double or triple or maybe even quadruple by adding more strengths, the likelihood that you're gonna feel strong and confident in those scenarios that otherwise might make you feel weak if you didn't have the strength, the strategies to employ.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I wonder, and maybe you can help me with this, but uh one of my top five is explainer. So taking complex ideas and um explaining them in a way that people really understand. So simplifying and bringing order to a complex situation. I think that's what it means. Am I right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And I find myself doing this a lot, finding different ways to restate a problem so that it brings more understanding to whoever I'm with. I haven't thought about this until you just asked me. So I wonder if that could supercharge, so to speak, that uh feedback session that instead of seeing it as me imparting information to an employee who's failed, say it as, okay, let's restate what's happened here so that we can all have a deeper understanding, including myself as your manager or supervisor. Maybe in doing so, we can come up with solutions to one, the mess we're in right now, but for the future. I hadn't really thought about employing that strategy in that particular situation until right now.

SPEAKER_00

Excellent. All right. So we've got the prevention thinking ahead. You've got your ability to explain so that they understand um what needs to be done. What else do you see on your list of strengths as low-hanging fruit that you could be more intentionally employing in these scenarios?

SPEAKER_01

Well, this is an unrealized strength, which I think means I'm not using it very much, or I'm not fully using it. But that idea of connector, uh bringing people together who um can work well together or strengthen one another. And I think I said earlier, I have an awesome team of people. None of them are perfect, including myself. But I wonder about if someone's struggling, using that connecting um strength to bring them together, not necessarily with me, but with someone else on the team or a veteran volunteer to support them in whatever they're working on. Connector strength that I think I have.

SPEAKER_00

Can you think of um a way that you could use that? Any examples in your mind?

SPEAKER_01

Well, um a few years ago, one of our chaplains was really struggling with how to finish conversations without cutting people off. So someone's pouring their heart out to you, telling you about their struggles and their history. They go on and on and on. And how do you stop that? So you can one get on to what you need to do, but two leave it in a way so that the person doesn't feel abandoned or cut off. And I remember saying to them, you know, I'm not the best at that either, but this other person on our team does a really great job at that. Why don't you shadow them on some visits and see what you learn and then maybe have them watch you a couple of times and see if that helps? And actually it did. And bonus, I didn't have to do all the work. So, you know, they were working together and it strengthened their relationship. And, you know, it's a learning process, it wasn't a magic one, but it definitely gave the person struggling a sense that okay, there are ways to do this, and I'm not alone in it either.

SPEAKER_00

All right. So we've got prevention, explaining, connecting. What's one more strength that you could be using even more in these feedback situations for greater confidence, authenticity, of course, and a higher rate of success getting through to the uh other other individual?

SPEAKER_01

This is one I haven't explored too much, but I see on my strengths list esteem builder. I love to build people's self-esteem, whether it's my staff or volunteers or those we work with in the jail who are incarcerated, because I see potential and I want to help people get there. So I wonder if I could explore more how to bring that in. I honestly, it's not one I've given a lot of thought to, but it seems that helping people recognize their own potential and motivate them to get there, part of that is overcoming struggles and weaknesses. So I wonder how that might get used.

SPEAKER_00

I love doing that. So I wonder whether one of the ways that I approach it might be helpful for you to begin to think about. And that is right back to what we're talking about here, spotting strengths in the other person. Like if when you're in a conversation with the individual, I wonder by the questions you ask or the things you observed, you could help the individual identify what are some of the straightest strengths that they have currently or have in the past used when they have felt most on top of things, when they have felt the greatest level of energy and success and satisfaction in what they're doing. And if they, with your help, can name that and say, oh, well, that's because I was creative. Or that went well because I had I developed a strong relationship with the person, or that went well because I was really good at writing. I have found any way, as a coach, that when I can help the individual build their esteem by seeing for themselves that they are highly capable in these very specific ways that resonates with them because they believe it and they they can see it, then they sit up a little taller and then they feel a little bit more, just as you did in this conversation already. You feel a little bit more, oh huh. I guess I could use my connector strength. I hadn't thought about that for or before. Or I guess I am a pretty good explainer. And huh, I could probably bring that into this kind of scenario. Then all of a sudden you start seeing your way forward with some momentum and some level of confidence that you can help bring to the other person by spots, spotting strengths in them.

SPEAKER_01

Definitely. That sounds really exciting to me. The idea of giving critical feedback to staff. In my mind, I feel, oh, this is going to be a negative experience where I just tell them what they've done wrong and admonish them. But that's not really who I am. And as I say it, it's not, it's not helping the person move forward or the organization. So unless it's an egregious breach of protocol, it does feel that these strengths could help me give this feedback when it's needed. But focusing on someone's strengths in order to help overcome a challenging situation fills me actually with a lot of hope and almost excitement about having a session like that rather than dreading it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and maybe you relabel them, at least in your own head, from feedback sessions to I'm gonna have an esteem building session with this person. And just by labeling it or putting on your to-do list in that way, would write, yeah, would reframe it for you right there, as you just suggested, help you start feeling a little bit excited about it.

SPEAKER_01

That's a great idea because words matter, you know, what what we call things sets a tone. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Great. Anything else that you see on that strength list that you want to talk about uh related to this topic of giving feedback?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I wonder, um, I'm looking at my unrealized strengths. Uh, one of them is called persuasion, which when I saw it on the list, I thought that, oh, that's probably right. But again, it's unrealized, and honestly, I haven't thought about it for very long. But I wonder, I mean, maybe you can help me unpack that a little more. And how could I practice that, especially when I'm thinking about uh supervising a staff team or working with volunteers who are needing help? Yeah, what what does that look like? What is persuasion mean in this context?

SPEAKER_00

Persuasion's a thinking strength, and it's really all about coming up with methods, words, strategies in order for you to make a good case for whatever it is that you're trying to persuade the other person to do. And so as we're thinking about feedback, you know, we just talked about using the esteem-building strength to help the person feel confident. But if you were to lend some persuasion to that, that would be perhaps you thinking about, well, how do I need to give them this confidence boosting strength spotting? What words do I need to use? When do I need to tell them? What evidence would I need to offer to help them internalize it in a way that is going to be motivating for them? Right. So if you think about that, if you can think in your mind of a specific person or situation, I wonder whether you could personalize the approach to the uniquenesses that you see in that individual, maybe back to thinking about what their strengths are. Like if this person is someone who is motivated by being creative, how do I persuade someone who likes to think creatively? I've got to give feedback and help build the esteem of this other person. And you know, they're not creative at all. And that person is quite competitive thinking about their mindset of being competitive. What words, what method, what timing do I need to use with my persuasion strength to personalize it so that someone who's competitive is going to be able to feel motivated by the way that I characterize this. Does that do those examples conjure up anything for you?

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. You know, one of the things I do a lot of is public speaking on behalf of the organization and actually in my church. I think I'm good at forming and crafting words so that they're relevant for the specific audience because I go to a lot of different places and talk to a lot of different people. I have never thought about taking that skill and using it with individual staff and in those sessions where I, you know, have to talk with them about a specific issue. Um, because it it doesn't take a lot of energy for me to think of a few words or phrases or concepts that uh I think are going to resonate with a group of people or a someone I'm talking with. I could absolutely bring that to conversations I have with individual staff members or volunteers. And so that is a really interesting thing to think about, knowing your audience and then being careful to craft your message so that it's heard the way you mean it rather than misheard or misconstrued.

SPEAKER_00

I enjoy doing that. Excellent. Isn't it amazing how when someone just points you to your strengths and you start thinking about them in a different or in the context that really matters to you or different context, all of a sudden ideas come to you. And that's the same thing we're talking about with other people. It's like if you point them to their strengths, you help them feel confident in their strengths, they can solve problems, they can find their way forward in ways that are particularly meaningful to them that may or may or may not even be meaningful to you or to me because we may not share the same strengths. And as I think about problem solving, uh and what I know as a strength strategist is we tend to want to help other people solve their problems from our own strengths because those are suggestions we make, because that's what makes sense to us. The other people may or may not, again, have the same strengths. And so if we can point them to their strengths, um, then they can see a way forward that is more likely to succeed, just like you are finding. That's exciting. Yay! Oh, I'm so glad. Awesome. That's what this is really all about. You know, helping you and helping other people, helping the listeners really think more deeply about um strategies to use your strengths. All right. Well, I have another question for you. So you have in front of you a deck of the introspective strength cards. I do, and on each one of those cards is a strength. And on one side of the card is a question, provocative question, hopefully to get you to think about well, how could you use that strength more intentionally? And the other side is an inspirational quote. And I'm wondering, do you want to just maybe randomly pull one of those cards and read the question out loud? And let's just see if that relates in any meaningful way to some of the challenges that you have as a leader and get you thinking about how you can use that strength more.

SPEAKER_01

I'll do it. So just one at random, right?

SPEAKER_00

Sure. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Let's just see what that takes, where that takes us. Okay. I picked um improver. What area in my life has potential for improvement?

SPEAKER_00

And I noticed on your strengths report that improver is one of your realized strengths.

SPEAKER_01

I guess it is.

SPEAKER_00

So that would suggest that you get you feel quite competent uh in your ability to look to find ways to do things better, that you tend not to accept things the way they are, but you love to see how you can make things more effective. And that comes pretty naturally to you, presumably. It gives you energy when you do that. It's something uh that you're able to do pretty frequently. So let's go back to that question. You know, in what areas of your life, professional or even personal, could you lend even more of that uh improver strength?

SPEAKER_01

Wow, I think there are many areas. The one that pops into mind is more of a personal one, and it's I get so caught up in the excitement of my work or the busyness of it. Um, I do not pay enough attention to my own physical self-care. And I know that area of my life needs improvement. I'm not gonna say on the podcast how old I am, but I know I'm at a stage of life where I can improve the way I care for this body that's carried me around the world for this long. That is one area I think needs improvement. And and really it's also in the service, I hope, of the organization and the people we care for, because I want to keep doing this as long as I can. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So, how could you use some of your other strengths in combination with improver to increase the likelihood that you're gonna succeed with this goal? Because you're using multiple strengths, hopefully, that come easily to you, that give you energy, that you're really capable of using. Like what combination could you perhaps employ?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I've never really applied it towards myself before. Um off the top of my head, I think when I've tried before to uh work on my health or my fitness or whatever it is, inevitably something goes wrong. I get discouraged and I give up. So I I wonder if I could bring that sense of unconditionality to myself in this sphere because I'm very used to giving it out to others. And I think of my work in the jail all the time. People struggling with addiction who have a relapse. You know, this is this is part of the journey, it's not the end of the journey. But I've never really said that to myself when I don't go to the gym for a couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_00

All right. So I wonder about that. Um, you know, we talked in the beginning of this conversation about prevention, thinking ahead to what could go wrong and kind of seeing the problems. And I wonder if, in addition to using some unconditionality and maybe compassion for yourself, if you could relax, take your foot off the gas a little bit of that prevention strength in the personal self-care area, so that that's not getting in the way of you giving yourself permission to change the way that you're gonna, the path you're gonna walk or the type of exercise you're gonna take. Right. Because sometimes we overplay our strengths and we become our own worst enemy. It's the becomes the barrier for the other strengths that are really more needed in the particular situation. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I totally like when I think about my own well-being, I quickly go to that place of, oh, what are all the terrible things that might happen and how can I prevent them? And and that tends to paralyze me rather than how can I be kind to myself and my body today? And what can I do to love it, you know? Yeah, it's interesting to think of how strengths can actually become challenges if indulged in too much.

SPEAKER_00

It's hard to take our foot off the gas of a particular strength that has served us well in many, maybe many other aspects of our life. But when we do recognize that perhaps, as we're discussing here, the prevention strength might be causing you a setback rather than moving forward in your personal life, then you can hopefully succeed by taking your foot off the gas a little bit of the prevention and simultaneously putting it down on the unconditionality and the compassion and maybe the way you organize yourself, or maybe you use your writing strength to journal a little bit about how you're feeling. And the energy comes back from using the other strains that you gave up from the prevention. And I wonder, maybe, maybe you make your own little introspective card and you write on that card, how can I be kind to my body today? Or something like that. That you just, you know, you attach that to your mirror or your shower wall, or you know, or put it right there on your desk as a little trigger to remind you that this is a priority and a way for you to use your improver strength back to where we started this little thing. Lots to think about. Yeah, yay, I'm so glad. All right. Well, so to wrap this up, let's go back to the mindset that you are a leader in the nonprofit space. And I'm wondering if there's any piece of advice that you might want to offer to others about leaning into their strengths. Like what might that be? What in particular resonated with you today? Or maybe even if you think back to when we met eight months ago and you first um started thinking about your strengths, is there any anything you would want to suggest to any of our listeners as to how they could lean into their strengths more effectively?

SPEAKER_01

I think one thing that has come out for me is, and it's easy for me to lose sight of this in the day-to-day, you know, running of an organization that needs to survive, is that really I do believe in my core that how you do something is actually more important than what you do. And that how you make a budget or or include your team in a decision or listen to someone who's struggling will be remembered and last longer than the material outcome of what you did. Because I've sat in so many sessions with incarcerated people, and when we get to the end of the session, we have not actually solved their problems, but they say to me, I feel so much better and it's because you I was listened to and fully heard. And so it's not it's not no piece of advice, no wisdom, no nothing that I had to offer, but creating safety and respect and compassion. I would say to my fellow leaders out there that probably the way you do things will be remember you'll be remembered more for the way you do things than the actual outcome of any particular action.

SPEAKER_00

Beautiful. And the way we do things is the way we use our strengths. Really, at the end of the day. Excellent. Well, thank you, Liz, so much for lending your wisdom to anyone who's listening to this podcast and for joining me on this exploration of your strengths. Um, I hope that it was helpful not only to you, but to anyone who's listening to this who's interested in being reflective on their strengths and how to use them more strategically in whatever context they are uh they find themselves. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much for your time and for the way the way you listen to me and prompt it. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00

It was very transformative. You're welcome, and hopefully we'll have more conversations. As you listened to this conversation, you may have recognized something in yourself. Maybe a strength that you rely on, maybe a moment that has drained you, or perhaps a way you'd like to show up differently. And that's really the purpose of these conversations, helping us understand our strengths so that we can use them more wisely in our leadership and in our work and in our lives. In the show notes, you'll find a link to today's guest, Liz, and her organization, a link to the strengths profile assessment, including a free version, if you'd like to explore your own strengths, and information in the show notes about the introspective cards if you're looking for a simple way to stay connected to your strengths each day. So thanks for listening to the strength catalyst, and until next time, keep leaning into your strengths and using them wisely.