Joe Lyons-Rising - Pain Remixed

Our guest experienced a loss that most of us cannot begin to imagine. By ten years old, he had lost both of his parents to suicide.

What followed was a childhood spent finding his footing in whatever ways he could. One of those ways was numbers. He became a self-proclaimed "mathlete", finding order, logic, and a sense of control in a world that had given him very little of either.

Beyond the spreadsheets and strategy was something deeper, a desire to give back to the community he understood most intimately: children navigating grief.

This is a conversation about loss, grief, and finding your way forward through helping others.

#pivotalmoment #painremixed #suicideloss

Lesley Hawkins is a keynote speaker with her signature keynote "The Courage To Define and Own Your Worth", workshop developer (The Leadership Mirror and The Leaders Table), leadership strategist, and storyteller who believes growth happens in the everyday moments that define who we become. 

Drawing on years of experience leading, guiding, and mentoring teams, Lesley brings authenticity, curiosity, and heart to the conversation as each interaction is an opportunity to define what truly matters.

One question. One turning point. One powerful story. 

To learn more about Lesley: www.lesleyhawkins.ca / www.marsley.ca

@the_lesley_hawkins_podcast

The Lesley Hawkins Podcast is a Marsley Canada production.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:01

Welcome to the Lux Comics Podcast. Each week, my guests and I discuss one pivotal moment in their life. What they learned from it, and their words of wisdom. Our guests experienced a lot that most of us cannot begin to imagine. Finding his pudding in whatever ways we could those ways with numbers, a self-proclaiming, finding order, budget, and a sense of control in a world that has given them very little of either. Beyond the spreadsheet and strategy with something deeper. A desire to give back to the community he understood most intimately. Children navigating grief. This is a conversation about loss, grief, and finding your way forward through helping others. Welcome to the Leslie Hawkins Podcast. I am so glad that you are joining us here today. Please join me in welcoming today's guest, Joe Lions Rising. So Joe is a corporate wellness and mental health leader. He is the chief empathy officer of Data Gives Back, more on that soon, and bestselling author of Pain Remixed, which we will learn a lot about today. So, Joe, welcome. So glad you're here.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Awesome. Thanks so much for having me, Leslie.

SPEAKER_05 1:36

Thank you. So this podcast is based on one question, which is what is one pivotal moment in your life? The reason that's the question is I found that it's quite universal. We all have multiple pivots in our life. Some we can control, and some are imposed on us. In talking to people about their stories, found that there's always a common thread, and it's the resiliency, the courage, the agility of the whole human experience. And so we created this platform for people to come and tell their stories for other people to learn about the amazing way that people have found ways to work within their pivots and to meet amazing people like yourself. So welcome. We're so glad you're here.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 2:37

So I'm going to jump right in. We're going to just leap in and do it. And let me ask you what is one pivotal moment in your life?

SPEAKER_00 2:47

It's hard. I'm almost 47. There's been many, many moments. Um, I mean, I wrote a whole book about the moments. Yes. And it took me eight years to write that book. Um so I would say there's different moments almost by you know where stage of what stage of life I was at. Because every stage of life has presented challenges and also like incredible opportunities to me. Um so I guess if I have to go, I think I would go back to like when I was a kid, yes, thinking about the hardest things that I went through in my life, which was unfortunately losing both my parents to to suicide, um, losing my dad uh by suic by suicide when I was six, and then losing my mom by suicide when I was ten. So it's horrific. At 10 years old, I I was at a crossroads that most kids aren't aren't really faced with.

SPEAKER_04 3:57

No.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

You know, kind of questioning life, yeah, questioning my path forward. And and I was like a happy kid. Um, had a I was really fortunate to have great family and so many friends and and activities and interests. And after my mom died, I just felt like a big part of me died too. And it's it's weird to feel that. My my daughter now is 10, uh, our youngest daughter, and I I often reflect on that. It's like it's a lot, it was a it's a lot to process and try to figure out. So people often ask me, because now I get the opportunity to go out and tell my story and and talk about you know how did I um get through it, even though get through is kind of a simplified way to say it. Yes, because it's a it's a million little steps and it's not linear and it's messy, no, and it's very painful, but it's also in this odd way beautiful because it ends up being love at the end of the day that helps you get through.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

So I guess to go back and say if I had to boil it down to one pivotal moment, I think it was that first year of losing my mom when I was 10, and uh this was like 1989, and then going into 1990 in the winter, and the that that winter, because she died in the fall, was horrible, absolutely like horrible, you know, and um that year, and I didn't consciously do this at 10 years old, but I realized that my brother, who was only 22 months old, when when my mom died, wow, so he was two years old, um he needed an assemblance of a mom. And so we between like my sister, my older sister, my stepdad who adopted my sister and I, yeah, grandmothers, aunts, and uncles, like we kind of formed like Voltron, came together, but everyone's old enough to get that reference, and tried to make like as much of like a mom, a mother figure to take care of this kid. Wow, so um I think that again, I didn't know this. It just gravitated that this this intense like love and protection and parental feeling I had for this this child became the the bright light and the path forward for me.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

As a as a child, a teen, an adult. Uh, we're still super close. Uh, I'm pretty sure I was texting him on the way here. We talk almost every day. He lives in Calgary.

SPEAKER_04 6:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Um, we have different dads, so he's about a foot taller than me.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

And uh call him big baby bro. But um, you know, it that was the moment where the next Christmas it was about him. Let's make this Christmas special for him. Because the last Christmas, you know, we barely went in one to get out of bed. We were so depressed and sad, yes, and and just overcome with intense grief.

SPEAKER_05 7:25

I can I literally can't imagine at 10 years old. And so your stepdad, because my first thought was like, is there an adult? So your stepdad was there.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 7:40

Um and like when you found out that your mom had passed, how do you get out of bed the next day? Does that stick with you? Do you have a memory of the 100%? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Very clear. It's it's almost a memory. Sorry, it's almost um a blessing and a curse that I have a strong memory. Like I have memories back to when I was three.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Um, which is when my biological parents actually divorced.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

So I do remember quite a bit uh as I get older. I'm sure there's things that I'm not remembering as much, but um yeah, I I remember I remember very clearly just being told my mom died like in my room by my stepdad. And yeah, the next day I didn't want to leave. Didn't want to leave my room, didn't want to leave the safety. I actually just wanted it, like I was really praying to God that it was a it was a really bad nightmare.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Um and I would kind of go through that hoping and thinking alone in my room like at night or in the mornings. Um I think at least for six months I cried myself to sleep every night.

SPEAKER_04 8:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Um and I had a really hard time concentrating at school. Uh the the term that uh like we use in in grief is like a brain fog. Yeah. You know, which is talk to an adult that's gone through a tragic loss or just gr intense grief in general, it's it's it's very real, right? It's a lot for our brain to try to figure out. Um we have a map in our brain, and that person is a part of that map in our world. And just like a like a computer program, if you delete that part, you're getting an error message.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

And you're constantly trying to find it.

SPEAKER_04 9:41

Okay, right. It's it's a good way to visualize it.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

It was it was actually in a course I took with uh Mary Francis O'Connor, who who wrote um um The Grieving Brain and then Now the Grieving Body, and I love that analogy in her book.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Okay, and that's that's what I that's what I felt like. Yes, it it feels like this is not hold on, error message error. This can't be right, let's just recalibrate. Is this real? This can't be real. So um, yeah, I I struggled in school that year, grade five, like I barely passed, and I was getting an over an 80 average before that. I was right, I was a math nerd, and I was doing like spelling bees in grade four and all that kind of stuff. And uh yeah, like it's it's this hard. I would I remember even trying to do schoolwork at my desk at home doing homework, and and I just would just break down like just crying, and then just end up back in my bed.

SPEAKER_05 10:35

Right. Yeah, right. And so your stepdad is now standing there with three children who are fully dependent on him. And what was that like?

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Oh gosh, it was very difficult, like to put it mildly, uh, for him. And he had already gone through trauma um that he wasn't he was he was like a a tough old school kind of tough guy, but unfortunately a lot of that meant keeping that inside.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

And um, you know, he I I would find out years later he did find my mom on a few different attempts. Oh right, so that's there with him plus all the things that go along with being a suicide loss survivor that's lost your spouse, um, all the emotions of it.

SPEAKER_04 11:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

And so he he wasn't set up for success to to to process it. Um we didn't have the resources back then, um, or even like the understanding, like in the the grief support yes, uh psychology um uh industry or field uh to understand about specific grief support. So I'm gonna talk a little bit more about the volunteer work I've been doing exactly on that specific part, but that didn't exist back then for like myself and my stepdad. So um, like many adults, uh and I would say it's also probably even higher indexing to men, his coping mechanism is drinking. And you know, my my parents like just like in the 80s, a lot of people like partied, they drank. Right. I wouldn't say that they had drinking problems, like they I didn't see them like drinking during the day. It's kind of like a social thing, like every everybody else, right? Right. But that became um, I don't remember exactly when it wasn't like immediate, but somewhere in the like later in the year, year and a half after mom died, that did become his coping mechanism. Yes, and it ultimately became uh an illness, and so he ultimately, you know, did become uh an alcoholic.

SPEAKER_04 13:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

And um that was another layer, yeah. Right for for me as a kid going through and um but him and I are very close. I I talk to him daily now um and try to help take care of him now. Um so we have some pretty deep talks. I bet all these decades later.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

It would be easy for me to be like frustrated or angry with him, um, but I'm not. I I can understand, like I have a lot of empathy for what he did, how he kept us all of us together.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

Yes, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:50

I had aunts and uncles that bless their hearts, they would they were offering to adopt us. Have my sister and I, you know, live uh with them. One of the best things that my stepdad did was keeping us all together in the same house, uh just north of Barrie with our friends. Yeah, because everything else in my world, like the rug just got pulled out. Um and it was so important for us to have some consistency, yes, and those friends and family members that were close were were critical.

SPEAKER_05 14:26

Yeah, yeah. You can't that's the one moment you need everything to just stop. No change, just stay as stable as possible while the foundation isn't stable at all.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

And he's still living in that house.

SPEAKER_05 14:42

Is he?

SPEAKER_00 14:43

So um he's recently uh separated in the past year or so. So I've been spending a lot of time with him staying at the house uh probably every other week. Um it's actually really been a beautiful thing because um as as much as there's pain, there's a lot of beautiful memories of our uh our family there and in the neighborhood as well. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:11

Wow. Okay. So would you do you mind me asking as somebody who doesn't I truly don't understand suicide? I don't um was there was there exercise, was there illness, was there a precursor for both your parents?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

That is like the million dollar question that most of us are always trying to grapple with when we lose someone to suicide is um you rack your brain of how you could have prevented it.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

And that goes a long time a lot with uh um like suicide loss, survivor guilt, thinking how you could have uh done things. So if I look at my dad, um so he I think he was diagnosed with bipolar um in his late teens.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

So um back then in the 60s, this is from what I understand a gathering, you know, because obviously I wasn't there. No, uh, I was born in 79. So, but um, you know, uh that that era was not an era that you typically if you you know if you had family members going through a mental illness uh or diagnosed, um there was a good chance that if you did talk about it openly, you that that family member would be taken to an institution. Yes, yes, and so I think that that was a fear uh from my dad's side of the family, and so they were trying to manage it, support my dad uh kind of quietly, just within the core family. Um, and so it's tough because also back then you you don't have a lot of the things we have today in terms of all the different types of therapies, medication, all that kind of stuff. So um I would say that yes, like you know, my my mom definitely knew that my dad's bipolar, maybe didn't understand it like we do today. Okay, he was on different types of um medications which were um kind of newer back then, like like lithium and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

Oh yes, okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

It's different. So um I would say that yes, like from what I understand from family, like definitely there were there were signs like in his behavior, and um there were things that even like why they got divorced in the first place. Okay um but this is the this is the wild thing about about suicide is that I've talked to like close friends of his, even on the day of, and they said there were no signs, right? No clear signs. So it is there's no magic answer, even for the you know, highest ranking professionals in psychiatry, yes, psychology, to say there's a just a 100% um answer to how to save someone from suicide. Right. And and our our brains are complex, very our emotions are complex. Um what I what I have heard from those that have attempted, um they didn't complete, and now they've haven't tried again, they've changed their life, and they've they're not even you know not having those suicide uh suicidal thoughts anymore is is how actually for for some of them it was a very like fleeting moment.

SPEAKER_04 18:49

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

There was a buildup, yes. Yes, but the actual thought of it, how it was gonna happen, kind of happened in a moment. At the same time, they were able to stop it in the moment. Yes, and then the next day they didn't feel the same. Like they did, they weren't they weren't feeling that close again. It wasn't like a constant, I just want to do this.

SPEAKER_06 19:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

I know every case is different and unique. Um, but that's when I go out and I I do talks around suicide awareness or prevention. Um, that's one of the messages I I tried to stress is that every day and our lives are different. We feel different every hour of every day. Um, it might seem constant because there's slight changes, yes, and some days it's gonna feel like life really sucks.

unknown 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

But you don't know what the next couple hours are gonna be if you don't know what tomorrow is gonna be. So if you act on this feeling at that time, you could be limiting yourself to all these beautiful opportunities in your life you don't know that's coming. You know, and that's I think I've been fortunate to find that perspective. And and I'm the opposite now. I I don't want to leave, I want to stay here as long as possible uh with my family and and and friends that uh I love so dear.

SPEAKER_05 20:21

So that's amazing. So if you so you managed to get through high school, right? You got through elementary school, got through high school, university, and then how how do you how did you end up here? Like all of the work that you've done, I I can't imagine, but trying to find a way, trying to find a path in life.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

So, you know, I I I feel extremely fortunate that um and I I will give a lot of props to my to my stepdad, is that even though he was grappling with his own demons and challenges, he was very much about, you know, if I if I wanted to go to university, yes, he's gonna fully support it. If I don't, that's fine. But I'd been I had this idea since I was a kid that I wanted to go to university. I wanted to do these things. So he'd have these really like frank and open discussions with me with without pressure and stress. Um and that allowed me to like realize, okay, like I want to I want to do something because I again I'm a math lead, so literally was on the math club and doing these things outside of sports and snowboarding. There's something about I and you know what I actually think it might be around math is that math, I can figure out all these in crazy calculations. Yes, when I I I couldn't figure out the calculations of life of what happened to me, but I I can rely on math. Right. Like rely on science.

SPEAKER_05 21:55

That makes total, absolute total sense.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Like I can, I can I can figure out all the very Variables because there's all these other variables that I'm trying to figure out, and my my brain can't wrap my head around it. So um yeah, I went went to uh Buffer Laurier University. Ironically, that's where my biological parents met.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Oh wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Um and uh yeah, I got a degree in economics and a minor in uh in business and finance. And it was at university, I think, because I was meeting so many uh great people that uh didn't know my story and they held their stories that I I found a really profound appreciation for where I had been and where I was, yes, and the people that supported me to get me there and all those types of things.

SPEAKER_05 22:42

So did you talk about it openly? Like when you were in a high school, university, high school I did not.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Okay, there was only a couple like very close friends, but even those I didn't tell certain aspects. Got it. Okay, um yeah, the the biggest one um being that I found my mom on her second-last uh suicide attempt by our house. That one I kept buried. Yeah, and that was the one that gave me night terrors and nightmares for for years that um I didn't express it until I was in my last year of of high school. Again, I'm gonna age myself because it's OAC or grade 13. Okay, yeah, grade 13. We're all young here, and all of a sudden I just I got uh that we were prompted to write this essay and it was more of like a memoir style short story. Yeah, I don't know why I just just put it all out there on the page. Wow, that's brave. And these are like I hadn't even talked to like family or friends about this story, but in my mind, I can still like you know, and I was 10 years old, I I can still envision it. Um I'm okay with that now though. Okay, I'm in a different place, and I think it's because at 18 I I got it out on the page.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Um becoming, I think, probably the best thing I'd ever written in my life. Because it was it was the most intense emotional thing that I'd ever experienced. Super raw. And um my my English teacher asked me to come in to talk to her, and I was like, oh crap, maybe I maybe overdid it. Maybe I maybe I overshared and I shouldn't have done that, maybe I'm in trouble. And I think she asked me, like, can I give you a hug? I'm gonna get emotional now. Yeah, but uh it was very beautiful. Um and obviously she asked me, like, are you okay? Like, do you talk to anyone? And I'm like, it actually feels good. I finally got it out. That felt really good. And I from there I started to look at um English, um, in terms of history, the the romantic poets, yeah, Shakespeare, uh, Wordsworth. I started to really enjoy poetry, and I started to write poetry. Oh. Um, and I wrote a lot of poetry actually about what I went through.

unknown 25:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

And so probably the next four or five years, even at university, I would I would write poetry, and I would I found this great outlet in writing. Like I always say my poetry is like a hallmark card, like it's nothing great. I I did go to uh I think an um it's not called improv, but like a poetry session where you can go up and share.

SPEAKER_06 25:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

I shared it, it felt great, but I mean I was surrounded by like incredible poets, but it was really cool, and I that's when I started to think one day I think I want to write a book. Yeah, and I could do that, it'll hopefully it'll help me, just like that one story in the poetry has helped getting it out. But maybe I can help other people, yes. Like maybe I'm supposed to have gone through all this for a reason, and and and it started to feel good. That's incredible. Like there was like there was purpose behind all this horrible pain. Um but it would take me uh I guess I was probably about 46, 47. Sorry, sorry, yeah, 36, 37 when I started writing it. And I the inspiration of really starting to write the book was when our our uh youngest daughter, Grace, was born. Okay, and I had a profound, profound moment, like one of the most beautiful moments with her and an appreciation for the miracle of life. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 26:55

It must writing poetry and writing your book and sharing your story at that well, at least sharing your story to start must have been somewhat cathartic for you.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Oh, yes, right?

SPEAKER_05 27:09

Like a bit of a release of no longer having it buried deep.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

It totally was. And um I I kind of have like writing conditions are where where I five found that I best write. Uh again, I took that love of being a math lead to a career of data analytics. So I have this whole brain that nine to five when the sun is up, yes, I can crunch data and I can I I call it getting into the matrix and I can do all this stuff, right? In this CPG industry, retail food service.

unknown 27:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

But there's this that other side, right? Especially like memoir writing and um, you know, writing uh a nonfiction is that I'd be up at five in the morning in the basement, candlelight. Uh I think I wrote the first few chapters just on the couch with a blanket around me.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

And uh I was crying a lot at times, and it was incredibly cathartic. Yeah. So cathartic. And then uh what became this great uh kind of tradition is that I would go right in the morning, and I kind of liked it because I felt like the world wasn't awake yet, like my family definitely was not awake, and usually on like a Sunday morning because I was still working uh nine to five. And then when they woke up, I would look forward to reading it to my wife.

SPEAKER_05 28:37

Really good.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

And at that point, I wasn't writing it to get it published one day, or I didn't really have like those ideas. I I still was um you know thinking that my writing sucked and I'm a I'm not gonna be a great author and all these kind of things, right? Yeah, we got in our own heads, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Um, but writing it for me first and then sharing it with my wife, that was the best. Yeah, that was the best feeling. And you know, at times she would cry and then I would cry, but it felt it was good, like like it was it was very like um therapeutic.

SPEAKER_05 29:20

Very yeah, okay. I love the expression math lead, by the way. That's a good one. I love it, I love it. But it's also like you've got this math brain, you got the economics, but you're highly creative and you're inspired by music.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

Yes, right?

SPEAKER_05 29:38

Very much so. So talk to us a little bit about what you're doing now and how you've taken this purpose into not only writing a book, but in helping others.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Sure. Yeah. So after you know, building a successful corporate career in Canada and uh CPG decided to quit my job. I was director of insights at a really big food company, uh, quit my job August 2020. And um first of all, the big part of that was that I wanted to find a way to work from home indefinitely during COVID.

SPEAKER_04 30:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

And uh I I do have uh a very late diagnosed anxiety disorder. Okay, which is not surprising. It's all triggered by the health and wellness of my family and friends.

SPEAKER_04 30:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

So my immediate need was I need to find a way to stay home uh indefinitely, and all the data was showing that co you know, COVID was not gonna be going away in a couple of weeks or months. No. And um, so when I thought about what kind of job, like I could, yes, I could go work another corporate job, but I want to do something with greater purpose um than just selling grocery items with data. Now I'm I'm I'm good at that to help people. So what if I took those passions of uh analytics, fact-based storytelling? I really enjoy training people, coaching, so I can so I built a a social enterprise called Data Gives Back. Yes. And um I think in that first conversation with with Carly, my wife, about it, I just said that I think there's an opportunity here in this kind of wild world where everything's going through lockdowns and we don't have even have vaccines yet and all these things that uh we can help people in need. And without a doubt, the first uh nonprofit uh charity in mind was Season Center for Grieving Children.

SPEAKER_04 31:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Back up in Barrie, where I grew up, and they offer free uh peer-to-peer group sessions for grieving children, um, teens, young adults, and their caregivers. All the things that we didn't have growing up. Right. You know?

SPEAKER_05 31:56

So you didn't it didn't exist when you were 10 and 10.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

No, it was founded 30 years ago in uh 1995, 96. Okay. So um I had already known about them a little bit, but I'd done a little bit of fundraising with them, and uh we just decided to go big with it. I said, let's let's go big on giving back, let's do 25% of our gross revenue.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

I wanted it to be revenue because I wanted it to be fully transparent. Yes, I didn't want to have like some funky math um on profit when it's net proceeds, you're gonna be able to get it. Yeah, net proceeds. And um, I had done fundraisers before in the net proceeds, that which is still amazing. Like anything you can get back is amazing, but the vision of our whole social enterprise um transparency was one of the most critical pieces, and because we want people to to trust us, like we're you know, um, even though it was kind of like my baby to begin with, it's always been my wife and I. Yes, because we obviously made a lot of sacrifices to make it happen.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

I bet.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

But they were the best sacrifices, and so you know, we would I would end up working and signing these big clients like Walmart Canada, um, and I would teach them Excel and stuff like that. The most incredible thing is before I would start training, they would ask, Can you talk a little bit about the charity? Can you talk a little bit about your your mission? So good. And so even though I was technically doing a lot of the same things I was doing before, feels completely different. You know, and I would tell everyone at the end, like I would I would thank them, like thank the company and thank them. Like just being here today, be being hired, you're helping provide your uh healing kids with hope or he healing uh their grief journey with hope while we learn Excel. Yes, right? While we learn v lookups, uh you're helping a grieving child.

SPEAKER_05 34:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:04

That's that's amazing that you put those two together, right? Because I was trying to figure out like what does what could you teach? Right. And I that is there's so many tools out there that you that people use every day that you can help teach them how to use it more efficiently, better every way, but it's ultimately driving your purpose.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Yeah, and I and I joke around because obviously the end of the day, like the grieving process is tied to mental health. Obviously, it's um it's actually one of the most human experiences that ties us together as human beings. I joke around that saying when I'm training Excel or other tools, I'm hope I'm improving their mental health so that you know they're they're not spending and wasting as much time in Excel. Uh they're they're they're their their uh experiences doing data analytics are not as frustrating, and maybe they can um have some extra hours in a day to do things they like or they enjoy rather than spend time with the family, crunching it out, manually inputting things on spreadsheets.

SPEAKER_05 35:08

So that's so good. Okay. Um the so the center for grieving children, is that the right name?

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Uh season center for grieving children, yes.

SPEAKER_05 35:21

Okay. So how did you how did you find them? And do you offer counseling help with them as well? Or no, you just keep that in in sort of your corporate world?

SPEAKER_00 35:36

So um, no, I have been a volunteer with them uh for like just shortly after I I decided to launch the business. Yes. And um they created this really cool volunteer role for me as executive grief ambassador.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

And it was yeah, incredibly special and meaningful because um the co-founder, Rolly Raymond, he he founded Season Center after the tragic deaths of both his daughters in 1995. Um and the inspiration of his story about how he said, Well, if I'm grieving as an adult and I'm having a hard time finding resources, well, I can't even imagine a book for kids.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

So talk about pain to purpose to the next level. So um he said to me, I I think like there's an opportunity because you've your story to be able to go out and talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Talk about also like what could have been. What could have been if our if if myself and my siblings had that kind of yes resources? Oh, totally, right? And and it was and it was very, very difficult. Like um, I talked about yes, like my brother being a catalyst and all those types of things, but obviously like a lot of pain for many, many years. And I I see the difference because I'm now a volunteer, not just an executive grief ambassador with seasons center. I've been a volunteer grief facilitator.

SPEAKER_04 37:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

And so what that means is I'm called a buddy, and um, I can go up, I go up every other two weeks, and um there is a group leader of the program, and um, they have a social work or psychology background, and then we have buddy volunteers like myself. Okay, and we're working directly with the kids to support them uh through all the activities, and um that I've done that for the past two years, and that has been one of the most um special or profound experiences, like where I'm supposed to be. Yes, that makes sense. Highly rewarding, great, incredibly rewarding. It puts all the other stresses in life in perspective. Um so it's it's a great program because you don't have to have lived experience, you don't have to have a background in psychology or social work, um, just a big heart to help give back, and they're always looking for for new volunteers.

SPEAKER_05 38:13

So and so data gives back is the the training that you offer, but you're also involved with a company called Pure Minds.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 38:27

Can you tell us a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Definitely. Um so one of the really cool things uh about writing the book and when it um was published in uh November 2024, it started to open up opportunities for me to go out and do guest talks uh with a whole host of different types of associations, but also in the corporate world where I've been training and working in for so many years. And so uh the founder and CEO of Pure Minds, yes, uh Nina Pirwell, is one of my closest friends for the past 20 years. She also joined me as a volunteer executive grief ambassador with Seasons Center, I think in 2021. But we've known each other for 20 years because we used to work at Nielsen again. We were we were data nerds. I was definitely way more nerdy than she was. Um it 100%. Yeah, we're cool with that because now it's been over a year. She asked me if I would be one of the coaches on her team. Yes, and and uh so we have this amazing team of six people across Canada, the US, and Mexico. And um Nina's the spearhead, she's she's been um really breaking the glass ceiling in this space for a decade now, and um it's phenomenal because I'm now actually doing corporate workshops for different areas of of mental health and wellness, and um, yeah, part of part of her team.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

Great.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

And uh that part's like a pinch me moment. It's it is a you know, a big change. People know me as a a data person and uh trainer, but really since I lost launched data gets back, it's been rooted in mental health.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

Yes, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:23

It's it's been driven by my parents' legacy to give back, do something positive like pain to purpose.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Um, even if I'm deep in some some uh you know consumer package goods terminology and acronyms, uh, the whole reason the company exists and why I'm doing it is to to help the mental health of others.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Now I get to directly do that.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

And so the past, oh my gosh, the past year and a half, like the opportunities been phenomenal, like right here.

SPEAKER_05 40:55

So great, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Like this this chat today wouldn't have happened without all those all this stuff that has happened. So I think at the end of the day, like we're we're complex human beings, but like we have a brain that has a lot of different areas, you know, and and for some of us, um we can't just be doing one thing, no, right? Because we have uh a calling to help other people or a calling to write and produce music or to uh do something in sports or something like that, right? So I think that's important to remember is that all those parts are are critical um I think for happiness.

SPEAKER_05 41:40

Yes. So after that eight-year journey and you produce your book, it's published.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 41:48

What was the reaction to it?

SPEAKER_00 41:51

It blew me away. Um, it's um an assisted self-published book, so it's okay, it's like a long way.

SPEAKER_05 41:59

It's like a hybrid.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

It's like a hybrid. So basically, it's um I worked with a a publisher, but I hired them. And so the great thing with that is that I get to keep 100% of the ownership.

SPEAKER_03 42:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

And so actually, in turn, that allowed me to donate 100% of the author royalties back to Season Center for grieving children. So it's yeah, they're even on the back uh logo here. There's a there's a whole chapter about them, and they have their own books they've released over the years that I've I referenced part of the research. So yeah, that first oh my gosh, it felt like having a third child when I had the book. And uh I yeah, I I kind of messaged everyone to tell them, like my gosh, my book's finally out because they've been waiting. Yeah, I've been telling them for years, it's coming, it's coming. I swear, like I'm I'm still doing this thing. Yeah, and so um it became a number one in a few different categories on Amazon, Canada, um, like mood disorders, depression, anxiety, and a really special one coping with with suicide grief.

unknown 43:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

So I had originally set out to have a goal to support one. If I could if I could support one child at Season Center, which is about sixteen hundred dollars for the donations of the book, that was like my lifetime goal of the book. Yes, because books inherently don't make a ton of money, no, a lot of costs that go into it, just printing and all those kind of things. Um yeah, we've we've more, I think we've close to tripled that. So good. And it's a year and a half, and um some of the most beautiful conversations I've had with people that have read it, um or they're about to read it. I'm at a I'm at a book signing at a store, and we're getting into these great conversations. And to me, that's that's the that's the that's the best thing. You can't put a price on that.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

No.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Or I have I have had people tell me I I bought this to give it to someone because I know they're struggling.

SPEAKER_05 44:08

Which is even Yeah, that's gold right there.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:12

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

Yeah. So you know, I think I was lucky to realize at one point that it wasn't about selling thousands and thousands of copies or um having global distribution, all those kind of things. I'm like, if it helps like one person shift their perspective on what they're going through, um, then that's that's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_05 44:36

That's what it's all about. Helping one, literally helping one person at a time.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:41

That's incredible. Good for you. I love it. Thank you. Thanks. I love it. Well, I haven't read it, but I will. Thank you very much. Welcome. I will be on that. That's incredible. So, my last question for you is this What would be your words of wisdom for the audience based on everything that you've learned?

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Well, it's gonna sound a little bit corny, but there is a phrase uh kind of throughout the theme of my book.

unknown 45:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

And that is that you can't rewrite your past, but you can remix your future. And um we would probably need a whole other podcast to talk about my affinity with music, yes, my 25 years of DJing and music production. Again, like I said, there's a whole the whole brain there, right? But when I decided to again kind of incorporate music into the book and every uh image, yes, every chapter is actually a record. Oh, and there's side A, side B, side D, like an extended uh LP, um is is that you know, we can take the parts, just like I've done remixes for different labels and worked on collaborated and stuff like that, in our own life, we can take the things that um you know, after we go through loss or something really difficult, the things that are still the most positive parts of our life, even if it's might be kind of clouded, you know. So I think about when I was a kid, when I lost my parents, well, guess what? There were still like so many other incredible people in my life. So uh 10, like how do I remix and rebuild a new life? Yes, it's with those people, yeah, you know, or it's with um you know, a passion for at that time for me it was it was uh ski racing. So focus on ski racing, uh, and then eventually like different sports, right? So I think that um at times it can feel we go through a lot of loss, but you've lost everything. There's no pieces to rebuild. But actually, if you look hard enough, there is. There is, and over time they'll really shine and you'll build you will have to build something new, yes, but it'll you'll retain all those beautiful pieces, just like what you're trying to do in a remix.

SPEAKER_05 47:12

Right. Yeah, exactly. Wow, you have an incredible story, and the the ability for you to remix, to use your words and rebuild your life to the point you are today where you're really living your passion and helping so many people. I mean, all 25% of your gross revenue going to help season center for the proceeds of the book, all of those things that you're doing, the conversations you're having with individuals, the work you're doing at corporate, you really have taken what what uh could be an life-ending situation and turned it into something incredible. And I hope you take moments every once in a while to recognize what a huge accomplishment and what a huge difference you're making to people's lives because I'm in awe, absolute awe.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

I'm kinda lost for words, but honestly, it um there's along with the the remixing of the pieces in our life that we knew you have the ability to step back and look around all the inspiring people around us too. And that's what's also kept me going is someone like Rolly. Yes, someone like Nina.

SPEAKER_03 48:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

Uh there's there's so many people. So if we take a step back from our own life for a second and be inspired by the incredible resilience and strength of others, that's also helped me.

SPEAKER_03 49:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

And that's also why reading is great. Learning not just within your own community and circle, learn history, learn around the world.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Of what people of human human beings have gone through and find strength in that.

SPEAKER_05 49:20

Exactly. I have one off the cuff question for you, but how are you doing now? How's your mental health now?

SPEAKER_00 49:30

It uh I'd have to say that you know, someone that had an anxiety disorder that ended up peaking at 38.

SPEAKER_04 49:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Getting diagnosed was the best thing.

SPEAKER_04 49:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Because I learned how to learn a lot of skills, worked with uh cognitive behavioral therapist. Um, yeah, like my mental health, especially in terms of my anxiety levels, are like the best they've been in their their lives.

SPEAKER_03 49:53

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

But I'm human, right? So even if I've learned all these things, this is the annoying thing about our mental health, is that um every day is different. Yes. Right. And just because I've come to this great point in my life, doesn't mean there's not going to be hardships. Yes. There's still gonna be grief, there's gonna be things, and that's the other thing I've I've realized that just because I've gone through those things doesn't mean everything else is just correct, you know, easy peasy.

SPEAKER_05 50:21

No.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

So um I would say that I'm always working on it. And um I think that's a a key takeaway too for people is understanding that every day can be a different day and um learning like a toolkit.

SPEAKER_04 50:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

Toolkit for it, so for how you manage it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:50

Well, congratulations. Thank you on everything you have accomplished and we'll continue to cheer you on. We'll read your book. We will do everything to promote it as well. Um, but it has been an absolute honor and a pleasure to have you. So thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

My pleasure as well. Thanks so much, Leslie. Awesome.

SPEAKER_05 51:10

Thank you for joining me today. I am in awe of Joe. Not only because of what he experienced in life, but his ability at 10 years old to focus on what was most important, the health and motherly nurturing of his younger brother. After we stopped recording, he told us more about the season center. And the wall of photos of the parents lost by the children attending the seven center. And there, he takes photos of both his parents. He doesn't see it as a harsh reminder, but it's an anchor to the purpose of his work. If this story resonated with you, please share it with someone you care about and be sure to subscribe so you can continue to hear more pivotal stories involving one question, one turning point, one powerful story. I'll see you next week with another guest on the Leslie Hopkins podcast.