The Lesley Hawkins Podcast
Anchored by the question “What’s one pivotal moment in your life?”, Lesley hosts candid, personal conversations about resilience, reinvention, and the turning points that shape who we are.
With her signature empathy, wit, and warmth, Lesley creates space for guests to open up, sparking insights that challenge assumptions, stir reflection, and ignite personal growth.
Each episode is an honest, unfiltered conversation that leaves listeners feeling inspired, seen, and more deeply connected to the human experience.
The Lesley Hawkins Podcast
Dr. Nicole Murray - Decoding ADHD
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Our guest has spent her career deep inside the human brain. As a neuropsychologist, she works with adults navigating some of life's most challenging moments — brain injuries, post-concussion symptoms, stroke. She understands how the brain shapes everything.
When her son was diagnosed with ADHD, suddenly, the professional became deeply personal.
What followed was a journey that would change not just how she showed up as a mother, but how she showed up in her work. Navigating the education system. Advocating for her son. And discovering that everything she knew professionally took on a completely different meaning when the person sitting across from her was her own child.
That experience opened her eyes in ways she never anticipated.
Join us as we explore what happens when expertise meets lived experience — and why understanding the ADHD brain continues to be an important conversation.
#pivotalmoment #ADHD
Lesley Hawkins is a keynote speaker, leadership developer, and storyteller who believes that our most defining moments are rarely the ones we plan for.
Drawing on years of experience leading, guiding, and mentoring teams, Lesley brings authenticity, curiosity, and genuine warmth to every conversation, creating space for guests to share the stories they don’t always get to tell.
One question. One turning point. One powerful story.
To learn more about Lesley visit www.lesleyhawkins.ca / www.marsley.ca
Welcome to the Leslie Hawkins Podcast. Each week, my guest and I discuss one pivotal moment in their life, what they learned from it, and their words of wisdom. Our guest has spent her career deep inside the human brain. As a neuropsychologist, she works with adults navigating some of life's most challenging moments: brain injuries, post-concussion symptoms, stroke. She understands how the brain shapes everything. When her son was diagnosed with ADHD, suddenly the professional became deeply personal. What followed was a journey that would change not just how she showed up as a mother, but how she showed up in her work. Navigating the education system, advocating for her son, and discovering that everything she knew professionally took on a completely different meaning when the person sitting across from her was her own child. That experience opened her eyes in ways she never anticipated. Join us as we explore what happens when expertise meets lived experience and why understanding the ADHD brain continues to be an important conversation. Welcome to the Leslie Hawkins Podcast. I am so glad that you are joining us here today. Please join me in welcoming today's guest, Dr. Nicole Murray. So Dr. Nick is what you go by, which is great. I love the casual, is a neuropsychologist. And during this conversation, we're going to learn about what that actually means. But she is the chief neuropsychologist at DRCCH, which is the Durham Region Center for Cognitive Health. Fantastic. Yeah. Because there was no way I was going to remember that. So thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. So good. So this podcast is all centered on one question, which is what is one pivotal moment in your life? The reason that that is the question that I chose for the podcast is first, pivots are something universal. Everybody has them. Some are small and within our control, some are larger and maybe not so much in our control. And yet, through all of the pivots that we go through in life, it helps to shape and form who we are. And I love storytelling. I love learning about people and what they do and how they've managed through their pivots. So I created this platform for the audience to learn about incredible stories and meet amazing people like yourself and see how they've managed through whatever pivots that they want to talk about. So welcome to the podcast. I am so glad you are here. Thank you so much. So good. Let's just dive right in. Let's do it. All right, and let me ask you what is one pivotal moment in your life?
SPEAKER_02Pivotal moment. So, you know, I'll talk about the last pivotal moment because I think just as you mentioned, with pivots, there's so many pivotal moments. Uh, and so when life takes you in one direction, uh surprise, it takes you in another. And so the last one I would say is with my son being diagnosed with ADHD. Okay. And as a neuropsychologist, we work all with brain behavior relationships. So, you know, I was already doing this kind of work, but predominantly mostly in brain injury, post-cancer, that kind of thing. Okay. Uh, and when I moved back to Canada and realized there was such a need for, you know, not only just assessment, but therapy too in this population was definitely one of the turning points for me. Because I remember being a parent and thinking, oh my goodness, I see this little guy and he's struggling so much. Um, and I know what to do to support him because I do this work, but there's so many parents out there that just don't know what to do to support their little ones with ADHD. And so that's kind of where I adopted more of uh treatment programs for not just um adults with ADHD, but also parents um supporting their children with ADHD as well.
SPEAKER_04Okay. So can we go back a little bit? Maybe explain to us for those who don't know, which I'm putting my hand firmly in the air, neuropsychology. Yes. Um can you explain a little bit about that, what what that is, and then also explain to us what's happening with ADHD?
SPEAKER_02Sure. Uh so neuropsychology, it is the study of brain and behavior relationships. So typically what happens is, you know, psychologists, we all go to grad school for a gazillion years, and then at some point we break off into specialties. Some people go into peds, some people go into health. Uh, we go into the study of the brain. And so we look at how the brain operates under certain conditions. So, my specialty area, like I mentioned before, was brain injury, concussion, um, and something called ABI, which is an acquired brain injury. So that's our strokes after heart attack, right? And so um initially I went into this field because a lot of times when these sorts of things happen to the body, people treat the body and then they forget what happens to the brain, and then they're thrown back into work. People get fired, we don't want that. And so basically what we do is we assess brain capacity and say, hey, look, your memory's really great here, but your attention is not so great here. This is what you're going to need to survive in the workplace, right? So that's essentially what we do. Um, now, when it comes to the neurodevelopmental disorders, right? Um typically what we're trying to do is establish their strengths so we can use their strengths to kind of pull up some of the traps that they continue to fall into. Okay. So now with ADHD, do you need a neuropsychologist to assess? Not necessarily, but it's kind of nice to know what your brain's doing. Um and so you can work with it and not against it. Okay. Yes.
SPEAKER_04So, not wanting to date myself too much, but when I, you know, when I was growing up, we didn't talk about ADHD at all. At all. And then later in life it became, you know, you'd hear about children that had ADD. Uh, you'd hear a lot about Ritalin. You, you know, and there was this stigma for sure that was attached to to those children. We've come a long way, but certainly it's didn't start from the most informed. No, it didn't. Right.
SPEAKER_02Uh so yes, so once upon a time, it was completely ignored, like you mentioned. And then we came out with ADD, right? And some people still call it ADD, and that's an outdated term. And typically those kids were the kids that were bouncing off the walls, that were not listening, they were a little bit defiant, and uh, there was definitely a stigma and a certain type of characteristic profile that went into that diagnosis. Now, later on, we have learned that um ADHD doesn't look the same for everyone, which is why we call it ADHD. And there's three different types. So there's this inattentive type, those are typically our daydreamers. It's really hard to just focus up when we have to. Then there's the hyperactive, impulsive type. Those are the folks that it's hard to wait their turn. They're constantly finishing your sentence, there's a lot going on for them, lots of ideas, and it's hard for them to contain. And then you have the combined type, which is a treat because it's uh both. It's both. It's both, right? And so um, there's three different types of ADHD. And then there's also some uh we wouldn't, I wouldn't call them diagnoses yet, because they're not in our diagnosis Bible, but there's also some processes that are happening that we're starting to become aware of in the research that are not yet diagnosable, like uh CDS, which is cognitive disengagement syndrome. So it will look like an ADHD presentation in attentive, but it's really just an internal distractibility. These are people that get distracted by their own thoughts a lot, it's hard for them to really engage. Uh, and so there's a lot of nuance that's starting to come out, which is good because now we can actually treat people right properly. We can actually have the conversation.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. When it was named ADD, and you know, the buzzword of the day was really Riddlin, it it it felt a little bit like we were walking amongst the zombies, like these children who just it was not good, right? A friend of mine, his her son, I watched him, he was just floating through the world. Um finally got him the right medication, which was great. And so I think it's definitely come a long way because now we can actually have conversations about it with a lot less shame and uh more understanding. But in the case of your son, what was what has his journey been like?
SPEAKER_02So with him uh I knew from the get-go. So it was really about just getting him kind of officially um diagnosed on paper. And so initially I started to notice, you know, when we go to play dates and we back when we lived in New York, we went to like a lot of gimberee and all of those little playthings. And when it was circle time, it was a nightmare for him. Got it, yes. And everyone else was like, oh, he's just a kid, he just has energy. It's just I was like, well, I could get that on some days because children are children and they don't want to sit sometimes. Oh, exactly. But when they don't want to sit all the time anywhere, yes, it kind of starts to become something more, right? Right. And so my biggest concern for him was not just the academics piece because he's very, very smart. Most ADHD kids and adults are. It's just that it they can get lost in the sauce, right? And so again, when you have uh a brain that doesn't want to focus up and listen, sit in one place and listen to a lecture, we're gonna start missing some learning cues and that kind of thing. So I knew that I wanted to make sure he was well supported there, but also on the social aspect, right? And so a lot of times I think both parents, adults, kids, no one really realizes the external factors that all play into how someone's treated. We think about, okay, well, your parents might be on you or your teachers might be hard on you, but it's also your friends and your siblings, right? And that was also something that I was concerned about with him. Um, even just yesterday, my youngest was yelling at my oldest one, who's the one who has ADHD, and he says, You know, I don't want you to play with my toys because you never put them back, and all the heads are missing from their little Lego sets. All the heads are missing, and I don't want you to play with them. And I could see him just welling up, like I didn't do this on purpose. I'm not trying to, you know, take the heads off and lose them all over the place, right? And so for me, you know, witnessing that it's a lot of psychoeducation, not just to teachers and to parents, but also to the environment that they're constantly operating in, right? Right. Like the whole community. Whole community. Right.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And so do you feel, because in through all of your research and all of your work, do you think that we have done a good job in removing some of the stigma so that it's easier for your son to get the support that's needed?
SPEAKER_02I may have an unpopular opinion about it. Okay, let it go. I do think that there's definitely been a lot more awareness. Yes. Um, but with awareness comes consequences, right? There sometimes seems to be a diluting of the intensity and the severity of somebody's diagnoses. Yes. And so sometimes, you know, there's like squirrel phenomena, and people, you know, are very uh jovial uh about some of the hiccups that some people have. Yes. Um, I also think that because of the awareness, it also dilutes it, just like with mental health, right? It's like I'm so happy there's so much more awareness around mental health, but there's a difference between someone that has a general anxiety disorder and then someone that's just worried and stressed. Yes. But everybody calls it anxiety, right? And so this is my concern with ADHD, is that I'm sure with the society that we live in now, everybody has a little bit of ADHD. However, um, the actual diagnosis of ADHD is much more pervasive and severe than people I think acknowledge. Um, and so yes, there's some support with the awareness and the research, but I don't think we're all the way there yet. I think that um there's a lot of superficial understanding that really prevents us from really diving in and helping at such a such a deeper level.
SPEAKER_04Right. It does become a bit like I your example of anxiety is is well founded. It becomes diluted, right? And so those who really do have an anxiety disorder get lumped in with somebody who's just super stressed and and you know feels like they're running in 14 different directions, right? Um, and I use the squirrel moment example quite often, right? I think we all have that of course because unfortunately, that's kind of the way the world is today. Absolutely. Um, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that it's tied to ADHD or anything else necessarily. Exactly. Right. It's just that there's so many outside factors.
SPEAKER_02There's so many outside factors, right? Commonly, you know, when someone comes in to me, I always explain to them, you know, it's like going to a physician and you have a cough and you say, I need some medication because I have this cough. Sure, we can give you the medication, but we don't know if the cough is because you have lung disease, or if it's because you have pneumonia, or it's because you have COVID. And so while everyone that does come to me have attention issues, disorganization issue, disorganization issues, procrastination issues. I don't know if all of those are because the root causes of ADHD. And so we do need to kind of examine it a little bit differently, which is why we try to veer away from like the self-diagnosis and the online questionnaires and things like that. I mean, Dr. Google isn't right. I mean, come on now. It can be, but it's it also it kind of caters to what you're looking for too, right? Right. It does want to tell you what you want to hear.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yes. I always joke, uh our daughter uses Dr. Google quite a bit. And she's like, Mom, I got a sore finger. I think it's gonna fall off. I'm like, yeah, that's about right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Totally so good. Yeah. So in all of the work that you are doing in neuropsychology and the experience with your son, what are you seeing happening in the education system and the support system? Is it where it needs to be?
SPEAKER_02Well, from my personal experience, I would say no. Uh, I do think that schools in the higher education are definitely making some significant headway with accommodations. Um, however, I do think at the elementary school level where it's the most important, uh, partly because of public funding and and those kinds of things, there's just not enough education around there. I think there's still a lot of stigma. I remember when I, before my son was diagnosed officially on paper, um, I was at a kind of like a meet and greet with teachers. And I remember hearing a teacher saying, Oh, I guess they have ADHD, and she rolled her eyes. And I asked her, you know, well, do you not believe in the diagnosis? And she had mentioned, like, oh, I just think that it's just overused to just compensate for, you know, parents that don't want to discipline their kids or something, all like off the cuff like that. So I definitely think there's a lot more psychoeducation um on in that area. And it's really important because teachers are largely in part responsible for their self-esteem as well, right? And so when you penalize a child for something that they can't necessarily do, it can become pretty damaging.
SPEAKER_04So well, and as as you as you look over the generations, the it does feel like ADHD is something that's talked out about quite often. And I could see the naysayers saying, oh well, it's just it's just a band-aid. Right? Well, we'll just then that gets them into the drugs, and that's you know, and that keeps them happy, and then we don't need to tell them no. And everybody does get participation medals and like all that whole um you know, psychology around it, and they I I think in some ways it's it's like the trying to sweep it under the rug to or cast a cloud over the whole thing, yes, right? And so how do we how do you answer people like that teacher who I'm sure is well-meaning but is misinformed? How do you help them if they want to be helped?
SPEAKER_02Uh yes, yes. So I think it's really about understanding what their issues are. So uh a colleague of mine, we actually did a talk at an elementary school uh in Toronto a few months ago, and the teachers were so much more willing to learn. Uh and it really does make a difference in how open-minded people are. That's why I kind of phrased it like that. And so, really helping them understand that with the kids that you see that have ADHD, they are operating roughly two to three years younger than their actual age. Oh. This is why nine-year-olds are not putting their coats away, they're dropping them on the floor and all of that, right? And so, you know, sometimes I got a question which was like, so what, they're not gonna be able to hang their coat up at 21 because they have ADHD. And it's not a catch-all for you know, all the deficits, but at 21, they are operating like they are 19, right? And so you just kind of want to keep that in mind developmentally um when you're thinking about, you know, teaching these kids. Right. Right. So that's maybe the one of the main things that I would want anyone to take away. Uh, and I think that also I liked your example in the past. It was like, give them Redalin. And then we have all these little zombies walking around. Right. And so the gold standard for ADHD treatment is medication and behavioral intervention together. Okay. Right. Uh, so you do need that medication to help with, you know, the delivery of the norepinephrine, which gives you that initiation, that go-to, okay, and the dopamine for the reward system, right? Like I want to do this, I'm motivated to do this. But you also need the behavioral intervention because the medication wears off. It leaves your system on a daily basis.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And so after it's gone, then what? Right. And so I always tell my folks, you know, I see predominantly adults, that life is typically in chaos. And when that's happening, there's nothing to fall back on except for the structures that you've built. Yes. And so when it comes to teachers and what they could learn is really how can they structure the environment that would support the child so that even if they are feeling a little dysregulated, they're being a little bit more not listening on that day. Yes. What are the fallbacks that they can at least do or feel supported?
SPEAKER_04Right. Yeah. So within the school system, there is an IEP that we have, which I don't know what IEP stands for, but it's an independent educational plan. Yeah, something like that. Yes, okay. And so with a diagnosis, the student can receive an IEP, which does provide them some guardrails, some you know, adjustments to how the school happens, right? So writing an exam, they can, you know, um wear headphones or go to a separate room, or depending on what's important to them. Yeah. Um so are is that at least a good start for the education system? It is. It is.
SPEAKER_02But I think the IEPs need to be very specific. And so for instance, we can have an IEP that says, oh, you have this diagnosis of ADHD, you get extra time on tests. Right. Now, if you have ADHD and anxiety, that's actually going to be really helpful because sometimes when you're very anxious, you're in your head a lot, and then there's a lot of thoughts going, the time is going, that's going to be great for them. There's other folks that have ADHD where extra time was not going to be great for them. Yes. Because now they're daydreaming more. And where did the time go? And so those kind of time management strategies would more look like, okay, you have additional time, but we're you actually have an hour to take this test, but you can take a break and we'll stop time for you. Okay. While you take the break, and when you come back, we'll restart time and you still have that same time. Yes. And so some of the recommendations, at least that I've seen in IEPs, they're they are very blanket statement. Very much. Right. And so there's two ways that I've just described how time on exams can work. And that's not really ever described.
SPEAKER_04No in no, it's really it's more like here's a list. Yes. Check the boxes that apply. Yeah. Right. Um that is a bit blanket.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So a couple schools, they have been working more closely with the assessors, right? And so when they're looking at the accommodations or the recommendations, rather, they look at, okay, realistically, how can we really implement this for this specific child? Yes. So um the forget what they're called, actually.
unknownI'm blanking.
SPEAKER_02I forget what they're called. That's okay. Um, so there is a a coordinator at my child schools that will implement the IEP. And so they'll set up a meeting with the parents and they actually go through the program together. So this is something I think in recent years has been such a move forward in terms of like the IEP process. Okay. Because now the parents are involved, they know what their child needs. And if that parent had their child assessed, they actually know what the recommendations are. They can help, you know, coordinate that information. So I think it is getting better, not there yet, but definitely much further ahead than where we were in 2010.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Okay. From the school standpoint or from a teacher standpoint, there is like the statistics are from what I understand are quite high for students that have an IEP of some kind. Um and so do you think that's because we're actually talking about it now, as opposed to little Johnny or little Jimmy or little Jane, well, they're they're just a problem child, or they've just they're hyper or they can't sit still or whatever it is. Do you think it's because we're actually talking about it? I think so.
SPEAKER_02Okay. There's yes, I don't I okay. So everyone has a purpose, right? And everyone is meant to be productive. We know that in the research that human beings in general are meant to be productive people. So I, when I run my groups, my adult groups, they are not allowed to use the word lazy. Uh, I do not believe in that word. I think when you're seeing someone that is lazy or unmounted, there's something going on. Yes. They don't feel good, they're tired, they're depressed, they've got a lot going on, but there's something that's happening here. And I think in the school systems, the teachers are recognizing if little Johnny is not keeping up with the class, or they are being problematic, there's something happening. It's not just nothing. It's not just, oh, they're just a difficult child with not no background. So I do think there's a lot more awareness there, which is why there's a little bit more attunement and focus in on what could potentially be happening.
SPEAKER_04Right. Okay. That's amazing. Um and because I I find it interesting that now all of a sudden we're we talk about it a lot more. Uh like it was was ADHD in its current form always been around, but now we're just finally talking about it, yeah, which is much better. Yeah, right. Much prefer. Okay. Um so the journey through the school system with ADHD is one thing. Um, having an IEP, having watched one of my children with an IEP, the challenge we ran into was after high school, and then it's off to university and college. And then they need to advocate for themselves. Which, if you're a 17, 18-year-old, that's not happening. Right. Um, and that's where I don't know what the statistics are. But from what I've seen, it just drops off, right? Right. Everybody gets in these rooms, classrooms of five, six hundred children. You got to figure out how to write an exam in this environment that is totally different from what you used to. And it's like, well, that's just the student experience. Welcome to universities. Right. Right. Right. So we haven't quite, at least not from my experience, we haven't quite made that jump yet into post-secondary.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And I believe that there could be some more just, I don't know if I would call it training, but just definitely some more education on that transition. Yes. Right. So oftentimes if someone doesn't have ADHD and I do an evaluation uh for a young 21-year-old or 19-year-old. It's I find that they never had to study. They went through elementary school and high school relying on their beautiful brain. Yes. And when they got to higher education, now they're taking all these courses, they have to do all these readings. This they never had the structure in the first place, so they kind of fall apart. So we'll sometimes see that in those students. It's not an ADHD thing, it's not a learning disorder thing, it's just a structure thing that never was developed. The other thing that we'll also see in that student population is if they had great parents, right? They're aware of their diagnosis. The parents, they know that they need structure. But instead of teaching them how to do self-structure, they've structured for them. Yeah, yeah. And so they kind of, those students lived in those guardrails and they were able to succeed because their parents set up really great structure for them. But technically, you're supposed to kind of have the scaffolding approach. So you set the structure and then you start to remove your guardrail so they can replace their own so they can transition into university. But sometimes when they remove the guardrails altogether by the time they go to university, then they kind of fall apart, right? And they have to start all over with the structure piece. So that's also sometimes what we'll see with those students.
SPEAKER_04And it's hard as a parent because I like you don't know. Don't know. Don't even know. I don't even know where to start with trying to figure out. And so it's like, well, you're this age, right? You should sort of know what you're doing. Right. Um, which is completely false. But yeah. So then a lot of the work that you do is with adults who are actually in the corporate world. So, how do we go from being diagnosed as a child to now we're diagnosing adults? And how does that show up in the corporate world? Because I can tell you, 30 years in the corporate world, we never once talked about ADHD, and we definitely didn't have any IEPs, and I definitely had people on my team. And yet I it just wasn't part of the conversation. Yes. So it's still like that. Okay.
SPEAKER_02There's not so much movement there. Uh, it's interesting, yeah. So I think in the corporate world, as much as there are a lot more initiatives for wellness um and employee support, when it comes to the brain, it's still very finicky. It's still very private. So the work that I do is um very private because there is still a lot of stigma um around ADHD, especially when we're talking about, you know, upper level management, executives, et cetera. And so I always describe it as these folks that have ADHD that are operating in the corporate world, they look like beautiful swans just gliding across the river. But if you like panned underneath the water, their feet are just they're clapping and just trying to survive, right? So they're out there, but they're masking and they are, you know, accommodating the best that they can. And there's some people that again they're operating undiagnosed, so they think that they are supposed to be working this hard to achieve whatever they're supposed to achieve, right? Right. So it's it's very complex, yeah.
SPEAKER_04It is very complex. So how do you it's one thing to recognize ADHD in a child? Yeah. Because I haven't learned the the facade, yeah, how to play the game. But as an adult, I get so well-oiled machine to incorporate of how to conform, how to fit in, how to do all of those things. So how do you how do you recognize it in the the workplace and help those not only who are those with ADHD, but those who are leaders within the organization to figure out how do you have a conversation about it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I'll start with the first question, which is like, how do you recognize it? Yes. And the biggest indicator that you'll see in the workplace is the inconsistency. Okay. You'll have an employee that really does great work on this one project, and you give them the exact same similar project, and it just kind of falls apart a little bit, and there's no reason behind it. They should have been able to do it, right? And so you'll see a lot of inconsistencies there. Also, you'll see a lot of um, you'll see a lot of tardiness on things that are not uh fires that need to be done, right? And so if it's a big project, there's something, there's a strong deliverable that needs to get out, they typically perform best. But it's like, oh, send me your quarterly something. Yes. It's typically late all the time. Because what they end up doing is they're just putting out the fires in front of them. They're not really thinking, oh, I should get started on this quarterly project that's due in three months. Right. Because I have all of these things due this week, right? And so sometimes you can pick it up that way, but the smarter that you are, the better you are able to hide it. Yes. And one of the things also is if they've been operating underdiagnosed or undiagnosed, your brain will accommodate for you, right? Because it peaks, ADHD symptoms peak between seven and nine. Okay. And if we miss that window, the child starts to do whatever they need to do to kind of survive. And that's what works all the way up to adulthood. Okay. Until we hit paramenopause, menopause, marriage, children. Any big life stressor will kind of unravel it a little bit. Yeah, which is not so great. Which is when they come to see me, right? Typically, okay. COVID was a big time too. Um, so when there's a big life change, you'll start to see those symptoms kind of rear. Um interesting.
SPEAKER_04Okay. So if you have somebody who you're working with who is exhibiting those inconsistent behaviors, how do you how do you manage that as a leader? Like that is not in the end.
SPEAKER_02No, it's not. Not at all. It's not. You know, it depends, right? And I also think it's helpful to have like a third party, right? And having someone that is well versed in this. And so, for instance, some of the folks that I've worked with, after we do an assessment, after we do a self-audit of like what their work life looks like, to reasonably accommodate these are some of the changes that could happen, right? Sometimes it's as simple as we need to start sending agendas before we get into the meeting, or else this person's gonna be lost. Right. Or it's if there's any instructions, it has to be done via email. Okay. There's not a let me talk to you really quickly. Uh there's those sorts of things, right? And because all of those load cognitively load on someone. So it's really about understanding where the traps are, where the weaknesses are.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_02Relaying that to the leader and saying, okay, is this something that you can work with? And having it be a collaborative kind of conversation.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And are you are you finding in your work in your research that it's one thing to have a conversation about ADHD in children? But is the number of diagnoses in adulthood growing because we're now actually talking about it? Or I don't know. I try to think like did we deal with it early enough in childhood that those that are diagnosed are already diagnosed?
SPEAKER_02I believe that the adults now that I'm diagnosing, so I'm talking 30 and up.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh those ADHD and attentive type didn't even exist. No. So I do believe that because that there is this awareness now of these different types, that there are we are diagnosing more accurately now as well. However, I also will say that ADHD is trending, right? And so sometimes how someone presents to someone that's taking like one of those checklists, it can look like ADHD, but it's not. There's so many times that I'm having a conversation with someone, and I'm like, this is actually a chronic anxiety that's loading on your prefrontal cortex, yeah, that's making you unable to focus, unable to just seek have clarity, do the things that you want to do. This is why you're scattered, you're losing things. And so there is a little bit of um, I don't want to say we're jumping the gun a little bit, but unless someone is well versed in literally all the diagnoses, right? Yes, it's really hard to say, yep, that's definitely ADHD. Okay. Because if someone has low vitamin D, low ferritin levels, it'll look like ADHD. If someone has anxiety, it can look like ADHD. Yes. If someone has parametopause, it can look like ADHD. Everything can look like ADHD depending on what's going on. So yeah. So it's really hard. It can be, I mean, it I just think it takes a little bit more effort and understanding with the context of someone's life to diagnose this. It's not just about, yep, I got these five criteria. Right. That means I have ADHD. Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Yeah, it's not a Dr. Google survey. Got it. Yeah. Okay. Nice. So um now when your son was diagnosed, I mean, you did know early on, but like you were already a neuropsychologist. I was. So you had like an advanced warning, an advanced notebook.
SPEAKER_02I did. I did. But it did make me think, I think this is why I called it kind of a pivotal moment, at least in my career, because I I often thought to myself, like, if I didn't know what I knew, what would I be doing right now with him? Would I be getting upset with him? Would I be, you know, giving him consequences that were just too much for the situation at hand? And, you know, how can I help other people? And, you know, my partner has ADHD as well. So, like, it's it's a lot to to manage, right? Just as a couple, as two partners with a child. And so it really is about the family dynamic as well. And so I think before my son was diagnosed, it was very easy for me to say, okay, here's a diagnosis, here are the recommendations, this is what you need to do. Yes. But now it's a larger conversation of like, how are you guys going to support each other? Yes. How are you going to support, you know, how are you going to support this dynamic? Yes. Um, and work together because it's hard for everyone, not just the person with ADHD. Right. Right. Right. It's the whole ripple effect.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. There's um the term of why can't you just that as a parent is so easy to throw out there. Like I asked you 12 times to put your laundry away. Why can't you just put your laundry away? And why do I have to ask you the 13th, 14th, and 15th time? And it's challeng it's very challenging to I you know, without the knowledge of ADHD, to try and discern as a parent between they're just being defiant. Okay, so they're being a 14-year-old and they've got their own ways of working, um and actually having ADHD. And you know, you use the term earlier, lazy, right? It's like okay, I yep, I can see that where you say there, you know, why can't you just you're being lazy, like get off your butt, like get moving, like come on, like you know, and and I like I'm a Gen Xer, so it's like, well, when we were your age, right? We're a hundred years old, right? We we would just get out there, we would go find a job, we would do all the things we need to do because that's how we functioned. And it's so easy to project that onto your children.
SPEAKER_02I'll also say with Gen Xers, yes, they had more severe consequences. And so if they didn't uh get their button gear to do what they needed to do, there was a big consequence coming, which when you know that, it rises inuropinephrine and it makes you go and do that.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02I think in our generations now, yes, we are more gentle parenting and you know uh spanking and all of that is not really something that this generation will tolerate, tolerate, right? And so when the consequences are a little bit milder, you're going to see those things that you you were not able to get away with in the past, you're gonna be able to get away with it now. Exactly. And so it is much more difficult. Uh, however, I will say, you know, for the kid that hasn't listened 12 times in a row, my question is when you told them were they doing something? Were they upstairs and you were downstairs? Did you look at them in the eyes? Like what was going on where they weren't listening? Yes. Right? Because it's really an encoding issue. And so it's almost like when, and everyone has this experience, right? So let's say you're watching something and then your partner comes in and says, Hey, when you're done, can you just grab this and bring it upstairs for me? And you're like, Yeah, yeah, okay, I'll get right on that. Right. Exactly. It was never encoded, right? And so that's kind of the thing with with kids with ADHD, right? It's there's certain information that's not getting encoded because there's other their attention is allocated elsewhere.
SPEAKER_04Yes. And so in that instance, the guidance or the advice would be like sit down, look them in the eye, like turn the TV off. Yeah, can put the phone down. Kin, can we talk? Let's let's put the laundry away. Yep. By this time. By this time, okay, where there is an end.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Because when we leave it open-ended, there's no fire. There's no fire. We forget.
SPEAKER_00Right? We forget, but we forget. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. There's like a million memories in my head, even as recently as yesterday. And I was, you know, my instinct is like, yeah, but I asked you. Like I even put it in writing.
SPEAKER_05I asked you.
SPEAKER_04I why you're, you know, why are you being defiant? It's not being defiant.
SPEAKER_02Uh they're just it's difficult to implement. So it's never they didn't know that they had to. It's never that they really forgot per se, but it's that implementation, that initiation to activity is where they have the most difficulty with. Yes. Right. And so sometimes what I'll tell people is you know, pair it with something else that they have to do. Okay. So if you want to meet your friend Susie, you have to do this before you walk out the door. So as they're walking out the door, they're like, Oh, yes, this is what I had to do as opposed to just when you get a chance, that's probably the worst thing you can say to someone with ADHD because they will never have a chance. No. Um, so it's nowhere on their radar. Yeah. So being as clear and definitive as possible is the most helpful.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04So when you're because you were already a neuropsychologist, when your son was diagnosed, did it change how you approached it? Did it change some of the work you did or the empathy or the structure of anything? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02So it changed the way that I worked with the parents.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh, because as a parent, I know that they don't know. It's and it's really difficult. And I have to even remind myself like, okay, because it's very easy, because like I mentioned, yes, these kids are very smart. And so it almost tricks the brain into you thinking that they are capable of doing these things that they actually are not capable of doing. And so I did change my work around the support we had for parents because it was really, you know, diagnosing adults, easy peasy. Okay. Uh, but it's like after the diagnosis, if you have children, this is what you need to look out for. Okay. And that's the piece that I've kind of now really emphasized and incorporated into our practice. Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That's amazing. Okay. Um during your whole journey of your son's diagnosis and all of this work, what have you learned about the broader community and their acceptance or not of ADHD or within your practice at least?
SPEAKER_02Since being diagnosed, since him being diagnosed, I've recognized that people don't know as much as they think they know. That, you know, again, when I moved here, I was still very gung-ho. And I still do that work, the rehabilitation work with uh brain injury and all of that. But I've really believed that when people had were talking about ADHD, they really understood all of the nuances. Yes. So, but when you listen closely, many people are talking about procrastination, the disorganization, the not listening.
SPEAKER_04Right, the laziness, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But we're not really talking about the emotional dysregulation, which is a huge part of ADHD. Yes. Right? We're not talking about, okay, beyond medication, what else are we doing to, you know, manage symptoms? Right? That it's lifelong. So it's definitely increased my knowledge about how much the community actually does know. Right. And I'm absolutely an advocate for everyone, uh, everyone, but especially for folks with neurodivergence because they do get misunderstood quite a bit, even by people that claim they do understand. Right. Right. Yes. Um, so okay.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Probably a totally left field question, but can you can you self-regulate to a degree where you're no longer ADHD? Like it's not like an allergy that you can grow out of. Right. But can is there ways you can no longer be ADHD?
SPEAKER_02Nope, no, you're always gonna be ADHD. Okay. So it's always I don't even know how to ask it. Yeah, so once upon a time we believed that you could grow out of it. Okay, but what was actually happening is that people were just kind of doing some self-compensation and just really self-management. And again, things would fall apart when there was life stressors. And so even now, after treatment, it really takes a lot of effort and a lot of work. And that's with all mental health uh diagnoses. This is why we call it fighting anxiety, fighting depression, because you're literally fighting. Yes. Now, with ADHD, it's I think the biggest work is mindset and really recognizing this is this is the way that I need to do things, and I'm just gonna follow my lead. Okay. And making sure you're doing it in a way that's healthy and productive for you, as opposed to trying to do what everyone else is doing to achieve the same outcome. Right. Right. And so sleep is a big example. There's a lot more research coming out around sleep. And while sleep is so important for people with ADHD, saying, okay, well, you need to go to bed at you know 11 and wake up at 7, that that's not always going to work right for uh individuals with ADHD. Same when we talk about our um people in corporate where we say, get up at 4 30 in the morning and just do all of this work and get that deep work in. That's great if you can do that. Yes, but sometimes people will get their wind at nine o'clock at night, right? When they're supposed supposed to be winding down. Yes. And so it's really about working at nine o'clock at night, taking advantage of that wind because you know what? At 10 o'clock in the morning, you're not going to be your best self. And so really working with what you have. Yes. Right. And so that's how we treat ADHD is really working with the symptoms that you present with so that you can still achieve your goals in a way that's healthy for you. Okay. As opposed to kind of getting into that grind of do this at this time and more structured like everyone else.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yes, yes. Structure is good. Structure is excellent. Excellent, right? But it's not everybody's structure is correct. Correct. Right, right, right. It has to be unique to you. Exactly. Okay. Amazing. All right. My last question for you is what would be your words of wisdom for the audience?
SPEAKER_02Be gentle. I think that would be if there's anything, whether you know, they have ADHD themselves, whether their partner has ADHD, whether their child has ADHD, is to really be gentle. Because, you know, with this, we didn't talk about this today, maybe in another uh podcast, but RSD is something, uh, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, something that coincides often with ADHD, right? They're very sensitive to criticism. Um, they're constantly self-criticizing. And so if we could make their lives a little easier by just being a little bit more understanding and just helping them build the structures as opposed to why can't you just you just need to ask? Yes, would be just so much more helpful and beneficial for them.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Be gentle, be kind. Be gentle, be kind. Okay. I like that. I think that applies a lot of places today. But yes, definitely for those. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing all your knowledge and your you have so much happening. I have learned so much. I probably now have a thousand more questions. So beware. You might get pummeled with a bunch of questions. But this is it, there's just so much still being learned about ADHD. And and I think the work that you're doing is so important because the conversations that I've seen about ADHD is really talking about children and about how we function in the in the education system. But I look back to being in corporate, we never talked about it, and that was only a year ago. And, you know, I'm immediately starting to think of people that I worked with that I thought, well, it never occurred to me that I should that should even be part of the conversation. And I can guarantee you that there's people that went on performance plans or were exited that maybe that wasn't the right answer. Absolutely. So it certainly made me stop and think. And so the work that you're doing is so important and really, really appreciate you sharing all your knowledge with us today. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much for having me. It's great. Great being here. Thanks.
SPEAKER_04Thank you for joining me today. I really enjoyed my conversation with Dr. Nick, as there is so much to learn about how to navigate life with a child diagnosed with ADHD. All the natural instincts of how to parent need to be reconsidered and rebuilt. And yet, I had never really thought about how ADHD may show up in the workplace. Truly fascinating work that she is doing. If this story resonated with you, please share it with someone you care about and be sure to subscribe so you can continue to hear more pivotal stories involving one question, one turning point, one powerful story. I'll see you next week with another guest on the Leslie Hawkins podcast.
