3 On The Column
3 on the column, brings together Andrew Roberts, the renowned Classic car writer and Brian Thomas, to talk Classic cars, with occasional guests joining in to share their classic car world.
3 On The Column knows that all of today's classics were once new cars, so revisit with us and enjoy their new car moment and how they are viewed today.
Want to share your classic car world with us? get in touch, we want to hear about it.
3 On The Column
Commonwealth Car Club Meets 3 On The Column Classic Car Podcast.
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Having seen the buzz around the Commonwealth Car Club stand at Pride of Longbridge last year, Brian and Andrew felt that this matter needed further investigation. The invite went out and was accepted - Jonathan and Cat from the Commonwealth Car Club join us today to explain all.
We hear about word being passed around Longbridge on a 'need to know' basis that 60 cars would be required for a secret "stunt" at a certain location: the chosen few and their cars were in fact to be part of the opening ceremony of the 2022 Commonwealth Games. Experience our guests sharing with us what being part of this tremendous event was like from inside the cars.
Unbeknown to all at the time, the ceremony also heralded the beginning of the Commonwealth Car Club, a club which has grown to more than 8000 members in just 4 years, with two NEC classic car shows in the bag already, and staging their own celebrated events.
Listen now and find out how it all happened.
Hello, good evening, and welcome to the Free on the Column podcast with Brian Thomas and Andrew Roberts, and what a packed podcast we have for you tonight. We have indeed. We've got two very special guests from the Commonwealth Car Club. We have Jonathan and we have uh Catherine. Do I say Catherine or Kat?
SPEAKER_05Um either, but Kat is my normal numbing.
SPEAKER_00Okay, we'll go with Kat then. That's absolutely fantastic. Thank you for having us. Pleasure. Thank you for coming on board. Um I th I think probably the first thing to say, um, I first discovered you guys at the Pride of Longbridge um last year, and the first thing I noticed was an absolute buzz, and a crowd of people ran the stand. And I thought to myself, there's something going on here. So I need to have a chat with these guys and um kind of find out a little bit more, really. So um who would like to go first and kind of introduce themselves and tell us a bit more and help us understand what the buzz of the Commonwealth Car Club may be?
SPEAKER_01I'll I'll try and jump in there, shall I? So, yeah, I'm Jonathan. Um I am uh uh one of the um, as Kat is, one of the original um members of the of the of the car club. Um uh and I think what we need to do is just talk about where the the club come from, um so you can truly understand why there is this buzz uh around the club itself. So uh the Commonwealth Car Club, um, that's originated from the uh Commonwealth Games um opening ceremony back in 2022. Um there was a uh a call put out uh around the Midlands for vehicles, specifically red, white, and blue. And uh all we were told is that they had a stunt that they would like to uh perform during the opening ceremony, and they didn't say any more than that. Um I myself, I didn't hear about this. It was uh a friend of a friend that that passed the message on to my to my mother, and uh then it got through to myself that they were looking for um specifically red cars, they hadn't got enough red cars for whatever it is they were going to do. Um and uh we I put my uh name forward, contacted the uh the address that we were given, and uh yeah, we were we were happily accepted. Um uh to and we eventually then were given a date and and and a location to turn up, which was the um Longbridge uh manufacturing site. Um so the old Longbridge site, which obviously, as we know, is is a derelict site. And what what what's going on here? What why are we all together? And it was very unusual, surreal moments in all these random, you know, West Midlands cars suddenly turning up on this one particular uh afternoon um at Longbridge, and it suddenly all became very clear when we got inside what it was all about. Um it was we knew it was going to be an opening ceremony, but we didn't know what it what exactly what the deal was until we were given um uh the paperwork. And yeah, the idea was to construct uh the uh union flag uh with what would be 72 uh cars. Um 12 of those cars were um actually part of the uh Paul Swift uh stunt team. So they were they were registered stunt drivers, uh so those 12, but then the 60 other drivers were all volunteers. Okay, and hence the reason then we then went through just over a month's worth of training to try and get us all in line with what it is we had to do, and and it literally went right to basics, you know. Forget the cars, where we were literally standing there together as groups, given bibs and given directions and routes, which we had to do, uh, because it was the timing was obviously critical for what it is they were trying to do for uh for TV purposes, as you'd expect. Um so to cut a long story short, yeah, we we spent the next uh X amount of weeks, it was just over a month it took before uh we eventually got to Alexander Stadium. We were gonna get a bit more close, we start using the cars to start forming the uh the shape of what we were after. Um, but the point was over those weeks that we we we had um doing all this training, we we we we kind of developed this friendship and this this understanding uh with each other. Um obviously having to work together as a team. Um you build these kind of friendships and relationships, and everybody was pretty much bringing a different car to some degree. I mean, it just happens that myself and Kat, we've both got classic minis. Um but there's a variety of cars, MGs, rovers, uh Jaguars, all manner of things that that were there, and they all had issues, and there was always an an AA van that was uh that was hanging around ready to uh support us as and when we had a problem. Um and that just added to the the the the the character of the of the whole event, which we people obviously don't don't see that. They see something on the TV which happened in a matter of I don't know just just over a minute, I think it was to form the flag. And uh, but people's got absolutely no idea the the the hours that went into to do what it is we did. So the point I'm getting at is the fact that that we produced this stunt um in front of all these millions of viewers uh across the world, and as TV companies would do, as soon as you've completed the stunt, you are out the door, literally, out the door, driving down the road. Literally, we're all getting a gone. We're gone. Get off the store and go. And and we were we were kind of given this this this um uh direction before the the event actually happened, and we're like, this is a bit bad, this is because we've we've formed such a friendship, we should stay in contact. So generally, we're around the whole uh groups that we were in, we exchanged numbers, we exchanged phone numbers and searched before the actual ceremony uh happened. And uh this friendship and and gathering then started um over the the weeks and months um after the event, um uh which then developed into as it was then the Commonwealth Drivers Club. Um and we kept that going for uh a short period of time. Um but the the I mean we've got to give a lot of credit here to to Jordan, Jordan Tocknell, who who is the is the actual driver for the ultimately what is now the the the Commonwealth Car Club because it was his vision that sort of said, look, we've got something here, and and and the point is we have developed a friendship with a group of people who have all different backgrounds, different knowledge, and not all classic cars, some were brand spanking new cars that were on on this event. Uh, but the point was that everybody had a common understanding and appreciation for what are motor vehicles. So what can we do with that? And he he had the idea of starting this club, and it has well put like this the club has now been running since uh since 2024, about June 2024, two years, and I mean across all the social platforms that we've got at the moment, we're over 10,000 you know members of the club. So just on Facebook alone, we've got 8,000 uh members in our club, and the idea is it's supposed to be a a place, a haven for for any car enthusiasts. Um we we don't we're not prejudiced with regards to uh whether you've got a particular make or particular style of car. Um and and and that was the idea. We were looking at the actual the the Commonwealth side uh uh of the statement of what it actually brings, what it should be, and it's it's the gathering. If you think of the actual the the event itself of the Commonwealth Games, it's the bringing together of people from different areas for a common goal of sport, sporting events, and that's what we wanted to do bring people together with a common view of talking about motor vehicles, uh, and and that's what we're trying to do. And that's probably why you saw that buzz, because there is a style that that Jordan has has brought to the club uh with regards to the look, you know, the image that we've got, uh how we present ourselves, and literally a diversity of cars and people that we've got that just makes people feel welcome to come and and and and talk to us.
SPEAKER_00And that's very special because as you touched on there, if you look at the goals of the Commonwealth, I think there's far too many people in the UK that don't necessarily understand what that is, but the key values are much, much wider than the Commonwealth, Commonwealth as a concept, isn't it? It is that feeling you've been sort of inclusion, isn't it? Absolutely. That's right.
SPEAKER_01Um I mean that that's that's a bit an unfortunate thing. And when people talk about the Commonwealth, you've heard obviously in in the last 15, 20, 25 years how how countries obviously have wanted to separate separate away from from what what the goal commonwealth was. And and that's not what we're trying to get involved with. What we're trying to, as you just touched on there, we're trying to bring you know the common love for motor vehicles to one place, and and we don't want to be uh prejudicially specific to one particular demographic. This this is for anybody, this is for this club is for anybody with any knowledge, any background with with vehicles, um uh and want that to be viewed as a safe place for people to have conversations, topics, and and you know, our plan is to take the club in in a direction uh that it would be for anybody.
SPEAKER_00And you're open to different vehicles as well. So has the angle of them not being just Commonwealth vehicles expanded now? Am I getting that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, most most definitely, yeah.
SPEAKER_05It's kind of a a car of interest, is how we describe it, and it could be of an interest because you're really interested in it. So that's kind of that's kind of it. We we you know we've got the the classics and obviously Longbridge. There's a lot of Longbridge built cars. Um, for some of us, you know, Jonathan's story about how he found out about it is different from mine. Mine was Gemma Cartwright, who organizes Pride at Longbridge, is a is a friend of my mum's from years ago. And I inherited my mum's mini when I lost my mum seven years ago. And Gemma was the one that emailed me and went, Your mum would have taken her mini to do this. Can you take her mini to do this? And I was like, Yeah, 100%. 100%. She would have been heavily involved in Longbridge. She lived in Longbridge. I actually worked at the Longbridge plant for a very brief period of time. We had that connection, and me, that was my connection was Longbridge built car, they needed us to go back to Longbridge. Gemma had asked me whether I would go and and be involved in it, and and that's that's kind of it. So yeah, the the the club has just become this thing that is so much bigger, and and that sort of idea that people they're members of our club, but they're also members of other clubs. There's not that exclusivity that you can't you can't be more than one because we're just we just want people who really enjoy and are passionate about their car. I don't know a lot about other cars, I don't know a lot about my car, but I love my car because it was my mum's and I've spent a long time getting it to the the car that my mum bought in 1995, 1996. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01And this is it, this is it, though the the the club itself. We've got to remember, we didn't just decide, right, let's start a club. I've got a good idea, let's start a club. No, we started a friendship. We started a friendship between people of a common like for vehicles, uh say not just classics, you know, go for any type of vehicle. And and that's kind of now been our motto is that is that the the club is to be fueled by friendship.
SPEAKER_07That's what we want.
SPEAKER_01We want to be fueled by friendship. And and as I say, you can come to this club, you can join us, you can have you can be a member of the Morris Minor Owners Club, whoever, whoever it could be, uh Jaguar Appreciation Club or anything. Um but there's no reason why you can't join our club as well. Because we we we're we're looking to it's interesting to I mean, as I say, I love minis. I've had minis since I I was uh in my adolescence, in my my younger years. Um so all I've known is is when it comes to car car customisation, is really the mini. So I've got a passion for that. Um, but I've still got an appreciation for other makes and models of cars. And it's great to see that come through in in the uh the input that we're getting from all these other members now that are joining the club, um, whether it's actually meet them at the shows uh or via the actual social media, which is the which has really been a huge tool for us to to grow the club as it has been.
SPEAKER_00It sounds like a success story, doesn't it, Andrew?
SPEAKER_02It's an absolute success story, and it's part, I think, of a growing trend of clubs that expand through social media with regular meetings, and that way you you can encompass so many more people, including, of course, around the world. I've been looking incidentally at your roster of motor cars, and your roster proves that. I see you have an IMA-built Portuguese uh Morris Marina amongst your lineup.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Quite diverse, isn't it? Uh Brian, you're looking slightly nonplusclier.
SPEAKER_00No, see I I'm not at all. I'm looking at the website actually and looking at the cars uh in one of the screen.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Because IMA built quite a variety of BMC and later British Leyland cars for the Portuguese market. And it's nice to have one there. I see you have a Humber badged single Vogue, because of course in Australia they used Humber badging, etc. The Humber Vogue, which um is a splendid vehicle. You also have an Australian Humber Super Snipe. Talk amongst yourselves. I'm just marvelling.
SPEAKER_05No, I've got it up in front of me as well because I was going back through and I was spotting all the cars. Oh, that was mine.
SPEAKER_02Ah, I you have a car that I wrote about years ago for practical classics. Which one? Mike Hanna's the Gato bodied Hillman Zimp. Yes. Oh, okay. What a splendid vehicle that is. Younger listeners, you may have to look up Man in the Suitcase, and you'll thank me when I do.
SPEAKER_00And that's basically anybody younger than us, isn't it, Andrew?
SPEAKER_02Come on. Man in the Suitcase is brilliant. He drove a Hillman, chain smoked even while being beaten up, and wore either a black suit or a tan jacket and looked grim. That's what I want from a television series. Absolutely. And the priest still drive wolves. You have in Scotland, oh behold this. An Alpha Romeo 1750 Berliner. And in fact, I just emailed you and today. Oh, okay. About Small World. About his honour.
SPEAKER_01Right. Well, this is it. This is it, Andrew. I mean, as far as the club is concerned, I mean, we've only done just as far as bigger, you know, shows that gives us some more of a spotlight, which is like the shows we've done recently for at the NEC, we've only done two of those. You know, we we do our own show as well, but we've only done two in a sense at what we consider a major event. Um, but again, those shows have drawn people to the stand because of the diversity.
SPEAKER_07Okay.
SPEAKER_01You know, we haven't just stuck with one model of car. They'll come to our stand and they'll see three, four different cars.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, of different backgrounds, different histories, different manufacturers. Uh uh and then they can talk to those owners of those cars about them. So, so yeah, it it it is it is it is what it is, what we hoped it was going to be. Uh, this diverse home uh for different people.
SPEAKER_00So tell me about the process getting to the NEC. I mean, you're obviously terribly proud of those two shows you've done, and rightly you should be, because it's not easy to get into the NEC. It's massively oversubscribed, and the clubs have to work at being good to be in there, basically. So how was that journey? How did you feel about getting there and and what were the challenges or or what gave you the idea to say I really want to be at the NEC? How how did you get to that point?
SPEAKER_01Well, as I said, you know, we we have we had started our own shows. So um we were doing uh gatherings initially uh in the car park of Alexander Stadium, obviously, where the opening ceremony took place. So we we we had started those and those events that we held there, again, they weren't um they weren't closed events. If you had a classic car uh and we tried to get it out there that we were having these these events, you could just turn up with your car, and we had people turn up that I never seen before in my life. Obviously, myself, Kat, and other people are there that were in the actual opening ceremony because we were the core kind of uh uh uh members. Um, but we had so many people turn up we've never seen before. Um, and that kind of showed that we we did have something that we could um project further and sell further. And as I say, gotta give credit to credit to Jordan here again uh for the for the effort that he's put in. He took those photographs from those shows and he contacted the the organizers at the events, and I know that he did his own personal bit of hounding and kind of and he's a good salesman, he's a very, very good salesman. He's uh he sold us us two. Yeah, we're both here. We're still here. So no, a lot of credit to him. You know, he he he done a fantastic job, a lot of effort, as you say, because he is oversubscribed to get into those shows. Um, but I I I'm I hope, I really hope that it has worked. We have had some uh positive feedback from those shows. Uh we have um attempted to reapply for for 2027. So let's hope that we we get a chance to to represent ourselves again because if and when we do uh turn up at a show like that again, you'll see a different set of cars. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05That's the beautiful thing, isn't it? Is that that there are so many cars, and one I was chatting to Jordan at the Practical Classics, and he was saying one of the things they have to have is a standby of cars. Because one of our cars at the Practical Classics, if you were there, was literally a shell of a metro. Yeah, um, literally a shell. It was one of the original cars from the the opening ceremony. I sat behind it for most of the rehearsals, but they just had to have so many things on standby. And and because we're such a big club and there are so many people who'd be willing to to sort of show, you know, Jonathan, you did the classic car show, didn't you, with Rogner? Was you was it with Roger and Kieran? Correct. Um but then we had a completely different set of cars for the practical classics. We're hoping we'll be at the classic car show again in November and Practical Classics and Restoration Show again next year. And Jordan's already starting to think about okay, what what can we use as the actual in in situ restoration project, which is the shell of the the metro. Um and then what do we use as the real sort of you know, the one that's been restored and is as it was, which was the other metro, which was full 80s classic metro this year. So it is it is that's the beauty of it. It's it it there's just so many of us, and we all have cars that could go at that. We all, you know, a few of us have a couple of cars that could go at any of those events, and that's that's just that's just and we'd all, you know, if Jordan was to phone one of us and go, This car will not stop, we can't get it to the NEC, any one of us, which let's face it, happens and a lot of us have rovers, it does happen. Um they you know, any one of us would happily go, yeah, one hundred percent I'm there and you can have my car and I'll come and talk about it because I love it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah we we we'll we we want to whether it'll actually get us to the event we'll have to wait and see.
SPEAKER_05But uh that that that's that's that's for coming over the last time we did the Alexander Stadium I had to be rescued by the RAC from an Asta car park in West Bromwich it happens to the best of us. It does it certainly does well I think I can see I mean every one of your cars would go down so well on a stand I think I see he said intriguedly you have a Bulgarian maestro yeah is that the purple one that's the one yeah yeah so so she she actually appeared first at um Pride of Longbridge two years ago which got rained off because beginning of April in Birmingham I live about five mile five miles you know five minutes away from Longbridge um the weather's not great and we were really kindly accommodated by Withall Transport Museum instead which is literally 30 seconds down the road for me and she came along to that for the first time in her maestro because she'd been intending to come to Pride of Longbridge.
SPEAKER_01So that year there were quite a few of us and again this was by word of mouth we'd done a few coffee and cars at Pride uh Withal Transport Museum at that point and so when we reached out to him to the the the guys that ran it and said look Pride of Longbridge isn't going to go ahead there's a lot of cars that are going to come we were one of a few car clubs that they said they would host at Withall Transport Museum and that that lovely which I love my my dad had a red Maestro um which got us all the way to the south of Italy and back did have to stop and be rescued because the club twent but you know um I loved the Maestro but you don't see them you know we've got metros we've got minis very the maestros because they were just driven like family cars they didn't they didn't last in the same wasn't that wasn't that something cat that we saw at this this recent show with the fact that people were coming around going oh look and and they were showing their the the the older the gentleman were showing their younger kids your mum had one of these or your dad had one of these type type conversations and and there's something we try and do as well we try and have a car or at least one car on the stand that people can sit in okay and take them back because some people on some of their um no disrespect but some of them they don't want their cars to be just enough but but but we try and but be a bit more realistic about this and and I say we try and have cars and vehicles that bring back that nostalgia bring back that memory and allow them just just sitting back in that vehicle and remembering uh the smell of that car um remember especially in my in my occasion just looking around and see how much you can actually see you can't see out of these modern cars nowadays I've got a company car out the front and I rely on my cameras whenever I reverse I mean it's ridiculous. But you can see so much what you see in the in a in a in a my show for example or metro um and we were trying to do that and and specifically as you said that there you know people were coming to our show and and just seeing that nostalgia that the light are back in their eyes and and and you know we try to decorate one of the cars with a lot of that nostalgia to bring back that memory and that's what we're trying to bring we're we're we're we're thinking about the next generation I mean my my my lad he he's 15 years old and in a lot of cases he knows more about some classic cars than what I do um the typical typical young people uh of nowadays they're able to to hold and retain so much more information that that that that that I can remember I ever had and and we've embraced him he can't even drive he's only 15 years old but the club has embraced him in he's a member of the club he's on the stand with us and and this is what we're trying to do we're trying to encourage younger generations into the the the classic car uh market and industry and and and this is what we want to try and do with with the people that we bring in bring the next generation in as well let's get them all interested because because it needs to to to keep going the next generation of classic cars are out there and and we're happy to have them as a as a member of our of our club and I think that's the really important point I have a 13 year old daughter and we we went out for a spin today in the mini because the weather was so beautiful and we've got two other potential show cars that we could that we could show but it's the mini she likes being and it's the mini she wants to drive because it's you know the other ones they're nice and they're our cars but that has a history to it it's a history of where we live because we live down the road from the Longbridge plump we you know I worked somewhere where we took on a huge amount of stuff that had been laid off by Longbridge when it closed my mum was counsellor for Longbridge um my and it was my mum's mini and you know it bought there it was driven there it lived there for years and that's what my daughter sees that's that she she has learned that passion for a car it's not it's not the fanciest of the cars that we have it's not the fastest of the cars that we have but it's it's the one that she has an attachment to because it it was it it means so much to here and you drive it around here and it's like driving a Lamborghini or something down the road because people look at it because it's isn't it just yeah I get exactly the same reaction when I take my car out as well you know that you know it is just as much of a head turner as you would see with a with a modern supercar. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well it's interesting we had on the podcast for the A35 owners club last week. I listened to that I was listening to that she was saying about because one of the things we put in the show notes was how does an Austin A35 beat an Aston Martin and the answer is you turn up outside the school with an Aston Martin and an A35 and everybody looks at the A35 and she made a comment I think um about one of her son's friends I think who said something when she showed them the A35 sort of in the garage or somewhere and he said wow that's amazing but does it go on the road and and it was such a concept of this is a vehicle that that couldn't possibly go on the road because it's so difficult and so small.
SPEAKER_01But yeah I mean that that was the point she was making you rock up in an A35 and and people go wow it's um I mean Wallace and Gromit they didn't pick a Ferrari did they they picked an Osted A35 because it was friendly it was it it kind of got people I think classic cars make people feel good a classic car doesn't ever make you feel bad does it and if you think about just going back to the younger generation again I mean if you talk about I mean I know it's a bit of an Americanism but the the the idea of having a a prom here in in the UK um it's it's fairly new and and there's uh when it first started the idea was you know to be show big showy have a limo have this have that whatever kind of supercar type thing but a lot of times now yeah people want people want a classic they do my lad my lads already said oh uh when I when I go I want to go in the mini daddy do you really want to go in in the mini? Yeah all the lads love it I'm like great yeah let's do it yeah we have a modern Mustang she wants to go in the mini she's already and that's what it is it's that it's it's it's it's it's kind of having that difference that standout to everybody else and and you know these cars are well I'd say they're not necessarily disappearing you know I mean if I think of talk about minis I know minis for a for for a for a fact with there's a huge amount of support for the what is the classic mini now uh uh in a sense you mean you could build the classic mini from from scratch with with all brand new parts um so so so so that's always going to be um you know you know well supported um but but look just walking around the the the the recent retro um uh restoration show um you could see the same sort of principles in all manner of of vehicles that I didn't realise whether it's Fords or or Jaguars and there's cars there that that have have been saved from from the scrapyard which I never would have expected to see driving around and and yes there is there is still a thriving industry there really is there is absolutely and um and it's amazing how people build these cars from something you look at and you think ah that's never going to be restored but it's just too far gone.
SPEAKER_00It's um I mean there was a there was a lovely couple um at the breakdown of the show on the Sunday they were obviously getting the cars out of the um the halls and they sort of go up to where they have trailers and things in the commercial parking you've probably done it yourself and there was a couple wheeling along a chassis of what I think was probably like an Austin 7 or or something like that.
SPEAKER_01And and there was a lady at the front with like a piece of rope round her it's it's on the Facebook page and I I just paid tribute to these people that instead of putting on a trailer on the back of a lorry they actually wheeled it along as just literally a chassis engine and gearbox steering wheel and four wheels that's all there was but it where would you see that anywhere else other than a classic event I mean it's it's it's just incredible and and the passion and the dedication that most people look at that and go what are you gonna do with that I mean where's the body they've got to build a whole body to put on it at some point it's not just a chassis it definitely brings it definitely brings people together sorry K definitely brings people together I mean I mean I mean my family alone my direct family here my wife uh she used to have a a classic mini um so she takes an appreciation to the shows and we go to all the all the the the mini shows as well so she comes along to those uh my daughter comes along as well so so yeah you know it it there is there is something about classic cars that brings everything together and I think there's a thing the thing that really struck me when I was at the practical classics thing was that it it's all individual as to what you m makes you excited when you see a car and you might have heard me Randall you're shouting Twingo because I went to France in the 80s and the twingo the original twingo was so unusual it was so different you didn't get it in the UK so in my head I you know I grew up the twingo was the absolute classic and we now play a game when we're driving that you play the snooker game you get points for the colour of twingos that you see which you can make but I was at the classic car show and I was chatting to Simon who's got the Metro with all the 80 stuff and he just bought himself a Mark I twingo because he was like I just loved it.
SPEAKER_05And then like there was one that was had literally been bought the day before in Ireland and brought to the club to the show but then there was a restored one over the other side with the Rene stance and I was just like this nobody else necessarily would think of it as a classic but I get so excited when I see an original Twingo it's like it takes me back to driving through France in our VW Golf originally and then you know VW Polo and then our Austin Maestro it just reminds me of of that and that for me that's what a classic car should be and and you know that's part of the principle of our club is that it it means something to someone it doesn't have to mean something to everybody but it means something to someone and that's really important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah an interesting point on that as well if you look at it from a brand new vehicle perspective and you look at Renault name three of the vehicles that they've just launched or are about to launch brand brandy Renault cars. Renault 5 Twingo I don't know what's but I've got my eye on the Twingo electric I like the look of that yeah they're they're they're free electric versions um and you can look at each of those cars and you can see details from the originals and there's they stand they've got to stand out as good cars in their own right but it's a heritage and whether you're into classic cars or not people will remember a Renault fire. Their teacher had one or their neighbour had one and and you're talking about the twingo if you wanted a tiny little electric buzzy brand new car you'd be probably very likely to look in the Renault showroom to buy a twingo and and so it's something now I mean there there was a stage when kind of the I think the Beatle the new Beatle came out about 99 2000 and people kind of thought okay where's it gonna go with that um but I think now cars like that have proven so successful and I think the difference is now that the manufacturers actually cherished their heritage whereas a few years ago it was all about the latest model and and if you look at the kind of press hubs as as I do for the various sort of manufacturers, I mean all of the good manufacturers have got like a heritage section where you can go and you can read stories about the cars in their past and and there's only one reason why they do that because it strengthens the brand and and the mini is a classic example that when BMW you know bought the rights to do that they bought that name.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And it's that name is what they've used going forward and it's branded so well and and uh I I mean I I being a as I say being a lover of of the classic mini I try and buy as much memorabilia as I can. Yeah okay and the fact that BMW had tied everybody up in so many knots legal knots not allowing them to manufacture this or manufacture that because they used the Mini's image even the image of the Mini was licensed by BMW um that that you know that they could see that it it was something that they could tangibly use to move forward and sell their product and they've done that how successfully you know this is this is a huge market for them.
SPEAKER_00Might have been a little bit successful. Yeah might have just possibly been successful.
SPEAKER_05Yeah it's absolutely massive and and you know it you can you know I'm not I have I have my emphasis coming from Longbridge about BMW and the Mini but that's one thing they have they have just done brilliantly and people who and it's really interesting because people who have a new mini are as passionate about having a mini as people who have a classic mini um and that's really I find that really interesting. They they feel that they are classic in because they are in their own right.
SPEAKER_01They're not they're not the you know the our minis but you know we actually have one of each so so we've got the red classic mini and we've got a red uh BMW uh mini as well um in our family so uh yeah we've got the best of both worlds and and I remember an advert when the uh the minis came out the new ones and uh it was the mini adventure series and it was like the mini goes round bend, does well gets first it's a mini adventure.
SPEAKER_05It was as simple as that or was that Sean Locke on voiceover it may well have been actually yeah I love the one with the old woman with the fake steering wheel that was one of the original new mini adverts in the road and it's the steering wheels on the other side and she goes like that and the other car swerves off I I loved that advert.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely loved that advertising advertising I seem to remember because I'm very old the Austin Maestro launch advert being spectacularly over the top as in even more over the top than the Metro launch advert which if you've ever seen it have you anyone here ever seen it?
SPEAKER_00Miracle Maestro or something the miracle driving is believing.
SPEAKER_02That's right. And if you have the upmarket versions um you had the voice of Nicolette Mackenzie telling you what to do. Wow well my next door neighbour sister owns a talking maestro oh okay an MG it is a it is a vehicle of utter fascination and we talk what strikes me looking at your lineup and what you've been talking about is how we perceive time in the classic world it doesn't was it really 40 over 43 years ago the Maestro was launched am I right in saying the BMW Mini is a quarter century this year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah 2000 yeah 2000 2001 when right here closed so yeah so that's right if you celebrate your 18th birthday this year you were born in 2008 the um Montigo in the UK ceased production 14 years before you were born and this isn't it I mean I mean I was I was born in the 70s so so I I've come through all those kind of like well-known uh uh 80s car classics as you said there the Maestro the Montego all the all those cars and and seeing them come and go and the fact that I owned a mini and you know obviously it was in production back in in in the early 90s when I when I owned my car um uh and it didn't stop till till to uh you know 2000 um now it's they obviously been considered as a classic I it just in some ways it makes me feel very old as well but but but yeah you know I'm I've I've kind of grown up with this car and I've got such a uh I feel like I've got uh I owe it a debt of uh to to keep it going and keep it to keep it surviving. So so the mini that we actually owned which we used in the show that has that's we're the only owners of that car. We we had that car since um uh 1992 uh uh and we've kept that one running so I had a I had a uh a mini myself and uh this car we've got now was my is my mother's and when I I I customized my car I had all the nice alloys and I had a uh 1100 watt sound system in it with a big bass tube and all manner of things you do as a teenager and I move those items some of them at least across to my mum's car the one the acceptable ones um the nice dash a nice steering wheel the nice wheels and and that's what's still on the car today we've still got those same items that I had back in the 90s are still on that car now and I don't really think how old it actually is but yeah they are they are getting up quite a bit I'm still trying to keep abreast with the Mond technology so now it's now got a a TV screen in it and it's got a Blu-ray player so you can watch movies. So let's do it opening ceremony as you do all the opening and that's that's one of my little yeah one of my little sell employees at the shows is that when people come round and they they see my car at the show I will be playing for example the opening ceremony so what I did is I had a camera set up in my car uh with a microphone uh so so I didn't explain this when when we were doing the actual stunt itself um uh Paul Swift the the the the stunt coordinator he was talking in our ear uh to all us drivers and um we uh I I took a direct feed from that that radio link into a recorder um uh so you could hear what he's saying and I've and I've put that on a on a YouTube uh video so if you search for Commonwealth opening ceremony you you will find it um but but yeah you can you can hear the the the the the the step by step um uh triggers that we had for each obviously we're all we've all got different numbers different codes because we're different parts of the flag um so it sounds quite complicated when you hear it on the uh on on the on the video but we all knew what it knew exactly what it was because we've done it so many times before um uh but yeah just just just to mention the logo as well that we've got um one of the reasons why the logo is the the the style that it is I mean obviously you can see the uh the representation of the of the union flag on the logo made up with the cars but you'll see the sweeps going across as well the actual logo that is representative of the red arrows because obviously after we after we formed uh the flag they typical red arrows their timing is impeccable and they flew straight over the top of us uh with their their uh you know their arrow Formation that they do, and uh you can hear that on the video, and I'll do a little snapshot showing that the the red arrows coming across as well. And uh it was it was that's why it was so unforgettable that that whole event. Some people did did you know you mentioned the opening ceremony, they go, Oh yeah, a vague, vague memory. But if you actually, if you were there, it was such an event. It was fan. And and just touching on um the the royal side of the event, obviously, you know, we were expecting the queen to be there, um, but unfortunately, obviously, uh at that time she was you know uh her health was was was was was failing. Um and we I think we learned was it about a week or so before something like that that she wasn't actually going to be able to attend and as he as he was then that Prince Charles would be uh uh would would be attending. But we didn't know in what way, in what form. We were told you know, about the sequence of events and that we'd formed the flag, uh, and then uh Prin you know, we we allow Prince Charles to appear again. We don't know how it was going to appear because we weren't told. Um and it wasn't until the very last whether it was the last day or the last year. I think it was the day.
SPEAKER_05So even rehearsal, he just the person pretending to be Prince Charles walked on. That's right. Even at the dress rehearsal two days before, we didn't know.
SPEAKER_01No, but he turned up in his own personal D B6, which is which is which is the car which is you know famously is his uh the the late m uh the late Queen bought for him drove for his 21st birthday and he drove in himself, which was that's the big thing, isn't it? He drove it himself with with Camilla by his side, uh, and we just weren't expecting that at all. Um I mean it's such a beautiful car. And and he he drove it in, uh he got out, and it's he's obviously he's his security detail, then drove the car away. And and and it's a funny story. When I was as I say, after we formed the flag, um and all the dancers that we had a dancer in each one of our cars, and if you're aware of this, so we had a dancer in the car, we we got to a position or a time where we had to stop, those dancers would get it would get out the car and with suitcases, that's right, with all their props that they've got as well. Um, and they would then prepare themselves, ready for the next phase of the of the opening ceremony. Um we were in a sense delivering them to the to the to the centre stage. And uh we then had to exit and get out of the way and get out of the main um arena. And on my way out, I just got to the to to the the main exit and to get onto back onto uh onto the road um uh to just drive back home, mostly because that's where we nobody else could go anywhere else. Um and and security stopped me, police cars, and and the Aston Martin came straight past me. Uh, we want to be security details in there. So I don't know where he was taking the car, but but obviously uh was Charles was getting back by some of means uh on that night. And I was wondering where it was going, but yeah, it shot off um to the side of me. Isn't that the deep so so but the point I'm getting at is that I I've got a I've got a photograph down in my hallway, which is a big kind of pararic photograph of us uh forming the flag. You've got one there as well if you can't. Yeah, and and and and Charles is there with the car at the very front. Now, what I'm saying here is ultimately, really, he should really be a member of the club. He should. Really. So I think I may have to see if I can try and reach out to the uh uh to the royal family.
SPEAKER_02Royal family, he should.
SPEAKER_01And and just see whether or not he'd be willing to join.
SPEAKER_02Well, I there is one logical argument. He is the head of the Commonwealth. Yes.
SPEAKER_01There you go. There you go. And uh I think that would be uh that would be absolutely fantastic if we could get him as an honorary member of the of the club.
SPEAKER_00He's a big classic car fan as well.
SPEAKER_01Yes, there you go.
SPEAKER_05I think that car was the one that he's had converted to run on the wine, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's the one that runs on biofuel, that's correct. Yeah, so apparently it runs on a on on the the waste product of wine production and and and uh cheese production as well, apparently, from what I from what I was reading. But but uh it's just uh it's a is it um um is it uh eighty five or something, the the fuel type, the biofuel. Um uh yeah, it's it's yeah, it's just that I'd be converted. But uh yeah, but wouldn't it be wonderful to have him as a member of the of the club? I think that's that's gonna be my challenge, I think, for 2026.
SPEAKER_00I must say every time I see him, I think we really should invite him onto the podcast to talk about his history of cards, really. But uh it may tell you while you've probably got more chance of having him as your patron than we probably have of having him on our podcast. But I don't know, Andrew, do you reckon we're worthy of having Prince uh King Charles on our podcast?
SPEAKER_02If you refer to him as Prince Charles, I can't.
SPEAKER_05I know, that's where you downgraded him.
SPEAKER_02I know, we could talk about his MGC GT and his um DB6 Valanti and other fine vehicles. We could talk how Graham Hill taught him driving techniques. Wow. So and his uh relationship with um relationship with motor cars, etc. So and the fact I think his first car was a specially coach-built Austin Jr. 40 pedal car.
SPEAKER_00Indeed. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02With all the extras.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Had a windscreen, didn't it?
SPEAKER_02In the lot, the full works. Yeah. I mean, I think we need more pedal cars in car clubs. I really do. But if you go back to what you're saying about inclusivity, I think and this is purely personal clubs who emulate Arthur from on the buses at shows and sit grumpily in deck chairs eating sandwiches on a Tupperware box and growling, they're doing their club and the classic car world no great service.
SPEAKER_05No, correct. Uh and you know, we're we're definitely not that club. We are definitely we will chew your ear off, we will talk talk to anybody, and it you know, when we did Pride of Longbridge last year, actually, there were a couple of people that were there that were came over to look at our stand, they didn't know much about us, but they'd actually been in the opening ceremony as peaky blinders. Um and so they'd be like, We remember you, we remember you, you were taking up all the space on the entrance into the arena. And it's it's that sort of thing as well, because it it then connects a whole other group of people who aren't necessarily car enthusiasts, but to that as you know, that completely unique event. We will never ever get the opportunity to do something like that again.
SPEAKER_01That's a that's a good point, isn't it, Kat? Because I remembered on on the video, because we're obviously when we're doing all the the training, you saw all these people, you saw all these other dancers and entertainers, but you didn't really get to interact with them. Obviously, we got to interact with the specific uh uh uh dancer performer that was in our cars. We were paired with that person quite early on in the in the world.
SPEAKER_05Randomly allocated.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that's right, yeah. Um uh but but everybody, everybody was having such a great time, and I and you can see on the video, uh if you ever do get a chance to watch it, um as I'm driving into the actual arena, you can see everybody there waiting, who are then about to come on and do their performance, and everybody's waving at everybody as we drive past. And there was just such a positive vibe um about the whole event. And and I know my family get and my work colleagues get sick to death of me talking about it. But but it but it but it it it was such a fantastic event uh that that that that it that it's formed this this this club out of friendship. Uh and I'm sorry about it. Just to point on that, the the the the dancer that was with myself, Amy, um she we're still friends. Yeah. I've I've I've I've befriended her on on Instagram. Um I'll see what she's she's continued on uh doing uh theatrical school and and university and college, uh graduated. So yeah, you know, you you make new friends and and and in in a in a in that particular case, an industry that I never would be as paying kind of interest to really the the theatre side. Um uh but yeah, I I'm I'm I'm I'm enjoying the the the kind of uh uh experiences that I'm seeing.
SPEAKER_05And then it does randomly allocated as well. So my dreamer, Mini Cooper S was six foot two, and I had they all had suitcases because the whole point they would they were going, they were called dreamers, and they were going to this magical place where they're gonna start in use, they all had suitcases. And my my guy Zach was six foot two, and his suitcase was the biggest lot of the suitcases, and the seat didn't go back far enough for him to get in it, so he had to sort of refine it as far back as it could go and sort of sit there with this suitcase upon it. And we now, still in the mini, have scratches of paint from his suitcase that have never come out of the veneer on my mini.
SPEAKER_01So so my dreamer Amy was five foot nothing, she was nice and petite. However, her bag that she was given had a huge hockey stick sticking out of it, so yeah, it was again it was quite similar. She had no problem getting in the mini, but this this hockey stick she was trying to get in as well with the bag, this prop. Yeah, that caused a few uh panics from time to time.
SPEAKER_05And they literally had like five seconds to get out of the cars because that's where they then started their dancing. It was so funny, so funny. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's quite fortunate they're all quite nimble, really, and dancers. Otherwise, it it could have I mean, if I had hockey sticks in a bag trying to get out of a mini, it'd take a week.
SPEAKER_03You just put it on the roof track, wouldn't you? You'd just stick it on the ripple, you just put it in the car.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I can remember when my wife picked up her her new BMW I3, and I'm going back nearly 10 years now, and uh she was doing the paperwork for the car, and I saw the BMW I8, the very low-slung kind of electric and beautiful, beautiful looking car and um sort of galling doors that lift up, and um I thought to myself, I've got to sit in one of those. So opens up the door, gets in the car, shuts the door down again, and thought, oh, this is fantastic. And uh after the dream was over for a couple of minutes, I thought it's time to get out, and that's where it all started looking very, very bad. Because I I thought, oh hang on, like the sill is about two foot wide, and I'm thinking, hang on a minute, this is gonna like not look very graceful, and I'm thinking I know you'd get the hang of it in time, but um fortunately it was an empty showroom, and I could see my wife looking at me and thinking I told him not to go in that.
SPEAKER_01Well, there are some obviously supercars out there where you literally have to crawl to get out of these kinds of things.
SPEAKER_00I know, I know, and the um the Lotus Elise is one actually. That's I I've been in a few of those, and they're they're terribly easy to get into, yeah, but it's the getting out bit that you know, and and if you have something like that, you've got to look cool, haven't you? It doesn't look good if like you get out and it goes wrong.
SPEAKER_01I thought you were gonna say that you couldn't find the door handle to get out, because I know that you know for example, my my uncle years ago, he had a TVR, and they didn't have conventional door handles on the on the door to get out. That had a little center, a center knob, but like a golf ball, that you turn either left clock clockwise or anticlockwise to open your your respected door. Um and then even to get in, you know, yeah, the door release being under the door mirror, isn't it? On the door mirror, yeah, that's right. And some of the other ones are round the back of some of the the the fairing on the car itself. So yeah, I thought you were gonna say you got locked in the car and you couldn't get it. No, no.
SPEAKER_00I managed to I managed to get the door open, I just couldn't get out very gracefully. So if I had one, that's make me effort and get better.
SPEAKER_01Well, there you go. So let I mean let's talk about that car just for a second. That in my mind is gonna be a future classic. Absolutely. That's such a distinct shape. Absolutely. Um, you know, that that is gonna be a definitely a future classic.
SPEAKER_00I saw one today and I just thought, wow, and um and even the BMW i3, and I say this to my wife, and she's now convinced that she drives a classic, because obviously electric cars now are becoming like normal electric cars, and when they bought out the i3, it was designed so that it's electric and it's different, and now we don't want electric to be different, we want it to be like a normal car. Um, but when you sort of look at it, and every time I see one, I think, yeah, when you kind of drive it, you just think, well, I'm driving my wife's car, whatever. But it's only when you're uh sort of uh walking down the pavement or something, and one drives past, you think, oh, but yeah, someone really thought about the design of that. And um, yeah, it's and I think you know, we're looking forward all the time because what we've got to remember is that the people that are being picked up from school in an I-3 or whatever it is now in 20, 25 years' time, they're gonna consider an I-3 a classic, and they would have had wonderful memories growing up with an I-3, but they're gonna want to have one when they're older, and uh and it's right, yeah, because it has to keep moving forward, doesn't it, Andrew? I think that is everything about classic cars has to move forward. You have to keep the young people interested, it has to constantly develop.
SPEAKER_02It's ever embracing. I'm hopefully going to shoot a video with a 90-year-old gentleman who owns a 1970 Vauxhall Viva HB four-door. Now when that Viva was 10 years old, I doubt whether anyone would have regarded it as a classic. It would have been the sort of very cheap used car you'd have found in auto trader bargain section or an Arthur Daly style car lot, etc. Or in exchange and mart. It's when once familiar vehicles begin disappearing and you think to yourself, when did I last see X? When did I last see Y? Then they're becoming classic. We're seeing some of the Rover 75 now, I think.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And the and the MG, obviously the MT said to you, in fact, the Rover 25, the 45, the uh Alan Partridge era of Rovers, even though he doesn't like many metros. Because Alan that series was the 90s.
SPEAKER_05That's you see, for me, until I got into this, when I heard Metro, that's what I thought was Alan Partridge.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And not driving a metro. No, not mini metro. He still calls it a mini metro.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. She said it's not driving a metro, it's a rover. Was it a rover seven? She called it.
SPEAKER_02Was it they changed the badge, you fool. What is it? Nothing to do with cars. One of the greatest aspects of Alan is his relationship with Lynn.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I love her. Absolutely love her.
SPEAKER_00It's wonderful. It's wonderful.
SPEAKER_05But he always drives rovers. All of his cars are rovers. And that was, you know, that was the the thing about rovers at the time that that was set and was being filmed was they weren't cool.
SPEAKER_02They weren't the sort of cars that actually so many of them have become really retro. Well, do you remember the Christmas special 1995 where he's been basically paid to you know advertise a Roma Vitesse on a BBC programme? Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I love Alla Partridge. It is, it is, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's just amazing, isn't it? It's just so, so good. Um I mean, on that note, probably I think we need to kind of bring it into the garage a bit, really, because I can't think of anything more inventive to say than that. Um, but it gives us a great opportunity to find out what are you guys up to this year, where you're gonna be, and how can they get in touch?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um I think we alluded to it uh at the start of the uh uh of the podcast that uh we're we're gonna be at Pride of Longbridge. Um so that's on the the 18th of April. So if this comes out in time, then then obviously please come and see us there. Um we've got um on the 31st of May, we've got the big auto club day out. Um I don't know any specific details about that one, but we're we're gonna be there as well. Um we uh so we have as I mentioned before, we've got our own show that we do. We call it the the Retro Refined Show. Um, and that's the one we hold at Alexander Stadium in the car mark. Um we so we've got a show there on Saturday, the 6th of June. Uh, and as I mentioned before, anybody's welcome. If you've got a car that you would like people to look at, or you think it's something unusual about it, as I said, it's not as it doesn't have to be a classic, it could be a new car as well. Um, then feel free to come along.
SPEAKER_05There's no entrance fee, it's literally drive your car into the car park and meet the source. That's right.
SPEAKER_01And that's that's something a point that's a good point there, Kat. You know, our club, it there's no there's no fee to join our club at all. Okay. So if you want to join our club, there's no entrance fee uh outcome to the shows. If it's one of our shows, there's no entrance fee again. Obviously, we're happy to take donations because the the money has to come from somewhere, and mainly it's coming out of our pockets at the moment, but it has to come from somewhere. Um but yeah, so so yeah, there's no there's no expectation uh uh for for any kind of uh payment for that. Um over recent years we've we've um we've learnt to um fell in love with the the Stapfold uh Road Rail and Ale Show. Um that's close to me here, um just up the road uh from Tamworth. Uh we'll be there on the 12th and 13th of September. Um and then as I mentioned, we've also yeah, as I say, we've tried to to get back into the the classic motor show um uh and also the the the restoration show again for 2027 and 2028. So but let's let's let's see what happens with those as when the time comes. Um but yeah, so as I say, you know, we we we're out there, you know, please go on our website, you know, please look at us on uh look for us on Facebook. Um we are uh you know we're not a profitable um uh profit making club. Uh we are we are looking for sponsorship, you know. What we do does cost us money. We are trying to uh bring a particular theme and a particular look to our club, and it does cost money, uh unfortunately, so uh as all things do. So um we are looking for sponsorship. Um and hopefully with the numbers that we're we're we're gathering from our members, um there's uh prospective uh uh sponsor out there to be interested in uh in getting in contact with us.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, yeah, and it is all about the numbers, isn't it? And you're certainly reaching those goals at the moment, I think. I don't know about you, Andrew, but I think it's been an incredibly impressive start, hasn't it, really?
SPEAKER_02I think so, and it you will only go from strength to strength. And I do hope you find even more cars from the uh British Raillands IMA operations and other vehicles that people over here are not generally aware of. That's another wonderful aspect of your club. It tells us different facets, unfamiliar facets of an old favourite, such as the Bulgarian Maestro, the Portuguese Morris Marina, so on and so forth.
SPEAKER_01So, and just very quickly to touch on that, this is what we try and do at the shows. So at the shows, we have a display board uh and we have some of these cars, obviously, who can't make it to the shows that we have. Obviously, they can't come across all around the world, but we do have representation for those people. Uh, we do little little little little pages and data sheets for those people so people know about find something out about that particular car. Uh and in the future, you know, we are planning to have kind of like um uh forums uh uh and and blogs on our on our um on our webpage uh so you can read up more about these these unusual cars from around the world. So that's that's to come as well in the future.
SPEAKER_00Brilliant, amazing. Well, it has been absolutely superb, guys. Very well have you on the show. It's been absolutely incredible. Um, and I'm looking at my screen, it says the website for the Commonwealth Car Club is CWCC.uk. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_05That's 100% correct. I was gonna make sure that we're on we're also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. Probably I don't use Twitter, but we're on all those uh platforms and YouTube as well. We have some videos on everything.
SPEAKER_00So amazing. So that is absolutely Can't escape us. We wouldn't want to, would we, Andrew? No, we wouldn't.
SPEAKER_02We couldn't anyway. You send that lovely Armstrong Sidley um looks like a four light sapphire to chase us. And I couldn't remember being traced by a pineapple.
SPEAKER_00We'd better remind people if they want to hear more about the uh Freeman McCollum podcasts and the people we've got. They what do they need to do, Andrew? They need to like and subscribe. Fantastic. Don't know what it means, but every podcast says it, and we thought we should too.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. We we like to be on the cutting edge of fashion, daddy oh. Man wonderful.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much, guys. It has been absolutely amazing. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Pleasure.
SPEAKER_02Uh a pleasure. Do take it.
SPEAKER_00Good night, guys. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02And on that one, shell, take it out. What was the first British film to feature a Mini Cooper?
SPEAKER_05Well, the obvious answer would be the Italian job, but I guess. No, it's not the Italian job.
SPEAKER_02Far too late. Made nineteen sixty-eight, released in 1969.
SPEAKER_01No, it's not the Italian job, is it?
SPEAKER_02Sir Farce Lady. Julie Christie drives the Morris Badge Cooper with a Verb. And that was made in the middle of the year.