Buying Guide: Citroen DS - Nigel Wild is with 3 On The Column Classic Car Podcast

In the first of our classic car buying guide series, we are delighted to welcome back our friend, Nigel Wild, chairman of the Citroen Car Club. 

So what is the secret to buying a good Citroen DS that will give you joy, not heartache?

What are they like to drive? What should you expect to pay and what sort of owner should you buy from?

Nigel shares his lifelong Citroen experience and knowledge of these cars to guide both novice and experienced enthusiasts into buying a better DS.

Listen now and begin your DS journey!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Hi, this is the Free on the Column podcast with Brian Thomas and Andrew Roberts and a very special guest. We have indeed. We have Nigel Wild, who is the chair of the Citroen Car Club in the UK, and we're going to do something sort of very slightly different this evening. Um we had somebody get in touch who said, Do you know, with all these wonderful people and guests that you've got on your car club podcast, then it'd be quite interesting if somebody actually wanted to buy a classic car, how could they kind of find out how to get the help to do that? And would it be a benefit if you did podcasts about actually buying a classic car? So we're not going to change tack, but we are going to have some occasional extra podcasts, and we are honoured to have on the show again. Our regular listeners would have heard him recently on our podcast talking about citrons and buses and lots of different things in general. Um Nigel from the Citroen Car Club, and I think we're gonna have a chat tonight about sort of demystifying the purchase of a Citroen DS and also the Citroen SM, why it's a good idea to do it, what the kind of pitfalls might be, and what the massive pleasure it would be to have one. So uh with that, can I hand straight over to yourself, Nigel? Thank you for coming on the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

My pleasure, Brian. Uh thank you all to Andrew. Thank you. Well, the first thing that's worth sorry, the first thing that's worth noting is not everything newer is necessarily better. If you're looking at a classic car to buy, not necessarily a citron, it's possibly because you're bored with the similarity of so many modern vehicles, you're looking for something slightly different, and possibly a little bit nervous as to what this will mean. And when I say that newer is not always better, when we look back at older cars generally, we have lost a degree of individuality, and in more mundane areas, we've lost things like all-round visibility. You can barely see out of some modern cars. Cameras may not necessarily be the replacement. But if you're looking to buy something older, the first thing is to remember you cannot treat it as a modern car. Uh it's got to be serviced more intensively, looked after more carefully, because it is true that the build quality of newer cars has improved enormously. Cars, and with the DS we're talking of cars from the 50s to the 70s, undoubtedly rusted significantly more than they do now. Most modern cars go to scrap with the body shells in reasonable, if not excellent, condition. It's usually mechanical and electrical bolts that kill them. So with the DS in particular, it has a major advantage over many classic cars. Yes, it's advanced, it's individualistic, it's almost unique, but also it was built in considerable numbers, not far short of one and a half million. And this means that there's a fairly high survival rate, which in turn means that parts are available. Because it doesn't matter how interesting a car is, if there were very few of them made in the first place, and it has got a major following, the availability of parts will gradually decline and it will become fairly difficult for anyone other than the dedicated to keep on the road. One example that I would give here is the NSU R080. Again, a very advanced car, beautiful car, technically sophisticated, but not made in huge numbers. And as such, although I have no first hand experience of this, I suspect that part supply is going to be relatively poorer. There will undoubtedly be dedicated specialists and owners, but not to the same extent.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Yeah, it's it's quite interesting that isn't it really? Because um the people when people have more of these cars and as more become available, people need more parts, don't they? And and I think that's very much where a car club through the mark will come into its own, isn't it? Because it's gonna be a group of people that get together, the need for the parts will be greater, and there's an audience of people with experience who know exactly what parts are needed where. Um and and that makes it quite a special thing, doesn't it? I mean, how else are you gonna get the knowledge and kind of find these parts and things when you need them?

SPEAKER_03 6:05

That's undoubtedly true. Um, in this respect, the Citroën Car Club is unusual insofar as having been founded as far back as 1949, at that point the DS didn't even exist. The owners, the initial owners, were uh traction avant drivers, um, the Tib C V was very, very new, and there were some rear-wheel drive cars in the mix. So when the DS came out in 1955, of course, the enthusiast members seized on this in amazement. Much was written about it in the club magazine. Um, there was much discussion as to how successful it would be, of course. There was a lag between it being announced with much fanfare in France and being released in the UK, and of course, shortly after that, some of the more um dedicated citronists over here actually bought them new, which was no mean feat because at that point a DS-19 cost around 1700 pounds which put it squarely in the upper market of volume production cars. Um the normal small car was four, five, maybe six hundred pounds. You had to really want a DS to buy one, and indeed, foreign cars didn't have much of a foothold then either. They were seen as rare and exotic. Now, as time went on, um, in that respect, we saw through the eyes of the car club, the D became quite popular, even in the UK, particularly after about 1970, when it became more affordable relative to other cars. We saw it become a from a new car move to a second-hand car, a cheap car, a banger, um, and then gradually come back out the other side of the pit of the breakers to being a quirky collectible for those who were dedicated before ultimately becoming uh iconic in the mainstream classic car world. So we've we've watched that go right the way through the cycle, and I think you're absolutely right that the clubs in general, and the CCC in this instance, have had much to do with keeping classic car interest alive, such that people then take them on and look around for support and parts, and if there wasn't the demand, remanufacturers wouldn't produce components. On the other hand, if they didn't do that and parts weren't available, owners would give up on the cars much more readily than they do.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

May I make an observation here? Um, following Nigel's genuinely fascinating discourse. Um I'll just quote your price, if I may. £695 nine shillings and tuppence in 1960 for a DS. And that makes it slightly more expensive than a Jaguar 3.4 Mark II.

SPEAKER_03 9:30

Was that sorry, was that £1,699?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

£1,695 nine shillings and tuppence. And this is also allowing for the fact it was classed as British built because it was slough assembled. If it were French built and imported, it would have cost far more.

SPEAKER_03 9:51

Wow. Yes, that's that is true. Not long after the DS came out, um, Citrone started to assemble them in Slough. They had already been doing that for years with the previous traction of the light 15s, the big 15s, the May Grey cars as they were widely known. Um, so it was logical that the DS and its simpler sibling, the ID of 1956, would both be built at Slough to avoid the duties. So these varied significantly from the French models in that they had to have a British content, with the result that we had um English leather, English electrics by Lucas, and I will not make the usual jokes, um, English paint. So, as many of the components that were not central to the car were of British manufacture, and with that, because they were intended for a different market within the UK, they were upmarket, uh, they had the leather trim as standard, also a range of um special paint finishes, including metallics, which were not available in France at the time. Again, they'd done this with the preceding traction of arms, and this allowed the DS and the ID to move into the upper market in the UK, but even then, it was a dedicated buyer who would choose one over, let's say, a Mark II Jaguar as the more conventional choice.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Absolutely, and that stopped, of course, in 1966. The last slough assembled DS was the Palace.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

Um it was. Um you're right that in manufactured slough stopped in 66. In fact, for the previous two years, they had moved from completely to semi-knockdown. Yes, for up to 64 they were s they were completely knocked down kits. That's to say, the press work was imported and the entire shell was assembled on Slough's production line. But for the last two years, the cars were semi-knocked down, in other words, the shells were coming in much more complete as they gradually made the change. One of the reasons for this was that the DS underwent a quite extensive mid-life redesign in terms of the mechanicals, the engine went from three to five main bearing, um, the gearboxes and running gear also changed. So it wasn't seen to be a logical point at which to make the change. Um bear in mind, incidentally, the palace is a trim level, it isn't a model on its own. Um, this always causes confusion, but there is no way of telling from the chassis number whether a DS is a palace or a non-palace. But there again, the palace trim didn't exist prior to 1964. You simply bought a DS or an ID. The DS Palace uh as a trim level was introduced part way through the car's life to, if you like, sexy up a little bit, because of course by then it was beginning to get a little bit older.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

So does that have a bearing, do you think, in terms of the sort of vehicles that people should be looking for to purchase, or is there not enough of different kind of models like that to choose from? I mean, i if for example I'm trying to think of there isn't a typical owner, but if you've got somebody who's maybe taking the plunge and fancies a citron DS for the first time, what would you recommend if there is such a recommendation of the type of DS to go for?

SPEAKER_03 14:12

There is uh certainly a clear break here. The the later cars, that is to say, from 19, well, for our purposes, from 1968 onwards, are the better choice. The reason I say that is the earlier cars with the three-bearing engine also used a synthetic um hydraulic fluid, very much akin to brake fluid, which of course, as we all know, absorbs moisture and internally corrodes systems. Yes. Bad enough on a conventional car and much more of a nuisance on an early Series D unless that fluid has been changed rigorously every couple of years. Not a problem to do so, but if you find a car that's been stored or neglected, that is going to involve major work just to make the thing roadworthy. So post 1966, a new fluid, the mineral base, akin, yeah, very low viscosity, akin to auto-transmission fluid, uh was introduced, LHM, liquid hydraulique minerale, and that has the advantage of being completely non-corrosive and nothing like as flammable as brake fluid, uh, doesn't damage paint, doesn't readily damage you, and why the rest of the world doesn't use it to replace the vastly inferior brake fluid, I have never worked out. So that being the case, and with the later cars also having the upgraded and updated mechanicals, anything after 66 is the better bet. The reason I mentioned 1968 is that for the first couple of years, the cars had the older front end, the frog-eyed nose, as it is known. And that combination with the of the earlier front and the later mechanicals and hydraulics for the year only of 1967 is highly desirable, and those cars are therefore relatively expensive. From 1968, the cars had their very first, their first major front and restyle, which gave them four headlamps under glass, two of which steered with the steering. That's right. Those are the, if you like, the typical later cars, of which far more survive, because of course, in period, logically, people would trade in their earlier cars, whether in the UK or in France, they would buy the later model. Ultimately, the earlier cars would be lost to SCAP. And so, although we have a dedicated group of owners who keep and enjoy the earlier cars, and they are lovely, they really are, but certainly for the first time owner, I would always recommend a later car, and it's most likely to be 1968 to 70 to 75 when production ceased.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

And that's yeah, that's that's so we're really looking for something it's certainly based on the availability of the cars, it's more plentiful. And are there any I suppose the big thing everybody talks about with with classic vehicles is kind of things like rust, isn't it? And I think sometimes people think that the Citron DS is going to be a very, very complicated car, but is it actually any more complex or more difficult to have run and enjoy in modern day times than many other classic cars?

SPEAKER_03 18:15

When it came out, it was undoubtedly seen as very complex, bearing in mind, as released in 1955, the DS-19 had the high pressure hydraulics not only feeding the suspension, but also full power braking, power steering, and the semi-automatic clutch and gear change. And all of this was standard, you couldn't opt out of any of it. So that made the car complex, and indeed there was an element of debugging by customer usage in the first few years, but after that period they'd got the car reliable and durable, uh mechanically tough. The ID that was brought out in 1956 merely had the hydraulics for the suspension, manual gearbox and clutch, manual uh steering. Now, as time went on, two things happened. The ID acquired power steering and power brakes, and the DS also became available with manual gearbox. That happened by about 1964, and incidentally was partly the fault of the engineers at Slough who created this variant for the UK market, and the French looked at it and thought, hmm, not invented here, but we might copy that, and they did. So by the time we reached the late 60s, you had effectively two strands of the same cloth. You had the IDs, which by then were power steered and braked, as I mentioned, and with various levels of power, but they could not have the semi-auto gearbox, they could not have the fuel injection that came on the DS later on, and they could not be fitted with the Pallas trim option. On the other hand, the DS by then could be either manual or semi-automatic, it could have um carburetto engine or fuel injection from 1970, and it could also, and in the UK usually was specified with Palace Trim, which was an internal and external trim upgrade. So you've got the the different variants, and what the point that I would make here is all these of a particular era drive the same. In other words, unlike some manufacturers who cheapen the running gear down, the Americans were brilliant at doing this, so that although you might have the same basic vehicle, the cheaper model would have cheaper suspension, cheaper damping, cheaper bushes, and be noisier. Now, with the DS and the ID, let's pick 1972 as an example year. The running gear on both models is absolutely identical. Same steering, same transmission, same brakes, etc. etc. Same suspension, of course, with the result that they drive identically. The DS will be a little bit quieter. With a fifth gear, it will be a little bit more long legged, with fuel injection, it will be somewhat faster. But both variants will give you the same essential experience. And I have long advised people rather than buy a dodgy high specification car because they're seduced by possibly. Leather trim and shiny black paint and fuel injection. Don't go for the money pits. Go for the simpler model, such as an ID, a D special or a D super, as they were latterly known, which is a slightly smaller engine, but the same basic unit. Still power steering and brakes, simpler trim both inside and outside. It will drive every bit as well, and we'll get more for any given expenditure. And it's simpler to look after, simpler to learn to look after, and easier to repair if something does fail.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

And I think as well, it's quite interesting listening to sort of explain about later models and kind of going through that. It it kind of makes me think that what you've actually got here by buying one of these cars is almost a modern classic vehicle, or is it a classic modern vehicle? Because the sort of refinements, I mean, this was actually way ahead of sort of comparable vehicles, wasn't it, really?

SPEAKER_03 23:24

In many ways, yes, it was, because of course, Citron was owned by Michelin at the time. Um therefore the Michelin radial tires were developed along with the DS, and you've got a car which for the 1950s had remarkable grip, steering, ride, handling, and braking, um far in excess of many, many competitors. The engine was widely seen at the time as being relatively mundane as a four-cylinder push rod water cooled unit, and indeed it wasn't what they'd originally intended to use, but that's another story. Um that said, the conventionality of the engine over the decades has proved to be a strength because they are so durable. But what it means in practice is that compared with driving many cars of the 1950s where they drive well of the era, but you make allowances for drum brakes, leaf sprung axles, etc. etc. crossply tires, and you don't go mad. With a DS, certainly of the second generation, but even the first, you can actually drive them quite hard, and you'll find the steering is precise, the brakes are responsive and powerful, there is a lot more grip than you might think, even though there is a fair bit of roll on corners, and the ride quality is still superb, even by modern standards. And we've got multiple members within the Citroen Car Club using the cars on a regular basis, um towing caravans with them, enjoying them, and also doing quite long runs. We we have um one of our members organises uh trips around France into further into Europe from time to time, and multiple D owners go on these and report just how well the cars perform, even you know, in hot conditions on alpine passes, etc. etc. It is quite remarkable how well they do drive. Okay, it's not a modern car, you've more wind noise, you've more road noise, you are aware of these things, but in the fundamental drivability, you can actually chuck a DS about far more than you would expect.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Wow, that's amazing. And if we look in terms of I suppose the next question I mean, I mean that's the thing that massively excites me, that it's the fact that you've got a vehicle that was so far ahead in its time, that it's actually something you could almost get out of a modern car, go straight into and really not have to make any serious sort of compromises, really. I mean, in terms of actually looking at cars, um how what are the biggest, I guess, as with all older vehicles, it's probably rust. I mean, how serious a a problem is it? And it probably isn't any worse than other cars of the period, but what are the things that if you go to look at one, what are the main areas to look at that would tell you that this is not a card eye? Well, what are we actually looking for in a choice of car? How do we know we get a good one to it?

SPEAKER_03 27:11

Well, the first thing is to ignore the bits that you can see, because every every panel on a DS is removable. That's to say four wings, four doors, bonnet, boot, roof panel, would you believe, on bolts, front valence on bolts. So everything that you can see can be fairly readily swapped around, taken off, fiddled with, botched, filled with filler, and painted to look pretty. The bits that you can't see are therefore what you need to concentrate on. Now, as you say, these rust as well or as badly as any other car in period. There is a hugely strong punt chassis underneath the DS. Um the roof does add some strength, the roof structure, but uh the strength of the punt is shown by the ease with which these were modifiable into convertibles, the famous chaperon coach built descaplas of the nineteen the late fifties onwards, which were enormously fashionable in France and enormously expensive anywhere, and of course, if you don't have a strong substructure in the first place, it makes it rather difficult to make a full convertible. So, having said that, in France, citrons tend not to go rusty anyway, particularly in central and southern France, but over here, rust tended to affect most D's fairly early on, that's to say, within 10 to 15 years. And of course, in most cases, when they got old, they would be botched and ultimately scrapped. Um there were more cars around than there were dedicated owners to keep them. So the thing to look for is first off, underneath the car has it been patched and plated. These are poor liars. The underbody is relatively flat and smooth with corrugations for added strength. But if you can see plating, welding, anything that doesn't look to be original, that is a red flag that needs investigation. Either the owner needs to be able to tell you about it, or they need to be able to point you at the specialist who carried out the work. Some some UK cars have been really well looked after all their lives. Those are the pick of the crop. Some have been off the road for years for one reason or another, and they can be, if you like, long-term survivors simply through storage. But bearing in mind I said that the average car had got quite severe rust risk by say 10 to 15 years. Even if a car's been off the road for, let's say, 30 years, that means that it would have been the nineties by the time it was stored, and that it all could already have got considerable deterioration in it. Now, obviously, panels can be swapped quite readily. This is one of the major advantages of the DS. Well, it's an advantage, but it's also a trap. With almost one and a half million of them built, it the survival rate has been remarkably high overall, and obviously people would swap visible parts around like fun from strapped cars, and they could make them look surprisingly convincing. Now in the days when only the dedicated enthusiasts were chasing these and everybody else was saying they were quirky, that wonderful Q word beloved of so many magazine journalists, um you didn't tend to get wholesale bocci. However, because there wasn't any money in it. However, as the cars moved from being quirky and um specialist to being iconic, that other wonderfully overused term, the mainstream classic car trade became involved, and those who'd been trading in Jaguar and Rover and MG decided that there may be some money in buying and selling D series. And not all of these cars were, shall we say, as honest as they might be. So you know, they needed to be watched. So basically, you're looking underneath for rust, and you're looking, particularly in the rear gutters between the boot lid and the rear wings. Um, a private owner will probably allow a potential buyer to take the rear wings off, they're held by a single bolt because they have to be removed to change a rear wheel. And that allows you to have a quick look in there to see whether there is corrosion, because most D's, the first thing that will go rusty will be the rear lane gutters in that area between the wing and the boots. Um, if the roof seal has um failed, that's to say the roof is GRP with an invisible metal edge, and it's bolted down onto a rubber seal. That's meant to allow for a certain amount of flex and movement in the shell, as with any car, they always flex a bit. But with age that seal hardens and fails. Water will get into the roof cantrail and it will drain naturally towards the rear, wander quietly and invisibly down the rear quarter panels behind the trim, and end up in the front of the boots. Um roughly we are speaking of a line between the front of the two rear tyres. And that's where a D will rust even half a chance. Um sometimes you find water in the boots. Again, that is a red flag. Sometimes you will look under the car and see there is some rust breaking through in that line between the front of the two rear tires, in which case somebody needs to have a good explanation as to how how serious it's been, how much it's been repaired, etc. etc. Obviously, they can rust elsewhere. The sills, which are a massive box section on each side, can also corrode in time. Um you find bubbles in the original underseal, but more usually you find that it's been scraped down, resprayed with anti-chip or unbrushed underseal or whatever, to tidy it up at best and disguise it at worst. It's usually the case that it's down to the provenance of the car. There's not a huge number of Ds in the UK. There are a fair few original right-hand drive examples. There are far, far more imported left-hand drive cars from the sunny south of France. There are some South African cars that have sneaked in because, of course, they're right-hand drive and they are worthless in mainland Europe for that reason. So all of these are possibilities, but provenance is everything. Where's the car come from? Where's it been? Who's owned it? What's been done to it? Good cars don't just turn up from nowhere.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

So it is, I mean, that's quite a common one, isn't it, when buying a car, you should be looking at its history. Um but it I mean, to my mind, these are cars that they kind of were workhorses, but they were perhaps bought by perhaps quite cultured people that would take them on adventures, and they they probably their vehicles, certainly the survivors, actually over their lifetime probably would have been cared for and treated quite well, but you only know that if you ask the questions, don't you? And you and you need to look at that history, what paperwork comes with it, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

Some some would have been looked after, but bearing in mind you were dealing with a model range which was everything from the Paris taxi to the executive saloon, the ministerial transport. So some cars would be well looked after, some would be worked damned hard, um, they would generally withstand hard work, but we should be under no illusions that when they were worn out, as far as the French were concerned, they would end up being scrapped. The French as a nation have never worried about the age of a car in the way we do. Um we're very much on the American model of annual model changes, year letters on the number plate, etc. etc. The French have never bothered. They'll keep a surprising number of one owner cars in use for a very long time. But obviously, we're talking about cars here which are at minimum half a century old. So there's a relatively small number of owners who would keep a car for that length of time. You do find the odd ones, and you do find some which have been stored away by a family when grandfather stopped using the car, but most of them have been through multiple owners and have been partly stored somewhere along the line because the the D was always the pride of France. When it was brought out, it was seen as embodying the, as was described in the UK, the white heat of technological revolution, much the same way as Concorde. And as such, the French are enormously proud of the of the model. They're proud of Citrone in general, but the DS and the two C V have a particular place in the French car owners and the general public's hearts. So the other side of the coin though is that if you've got a DS which is in a reasonable condition, but will need some work, there is a huge backup of parts. In other words, for a long time now there have been remanufacturers making sills, floor panels, boot sections, gutters, all the bits and pieces, door bottoms for the outer panels, wing edges, they know exactly where they go rusty, and they've been fabricating these parts to an improving and ever better standard. I was at a rally in France last year, and a friend of mine over there who actually manufactures in the Netherlands had a uh a drop head DS on display, and this was a body shell lacking the outer panels, so the complete hull and rear structure of the decapitabla, which as we said is very similar to the saloon in most ways. And the bulkhead was in red primer, red oxide, and everything else was in the zinc finish Zintex steel, and the reason for that was everything other than the bulkhead was brand new. He'd he'd taken, he'd salvaged a 1963 bulkhead from an otherwise unrecoverable car, and every other component was new, and the majority were made in his works. Um he said, you know, we buy some parts in, but where we can improve on those, we're gradually making those ourselves as well. And that was only, say, I would say 10% of what uh was on the car. So we're not quite to the stage of being able to build a brand new DS, but it's getting suspiciously close. Um, the mechanical components, even for the earlier cars, are obtainable. Um, the mechanicals in general are incredibly long-lived with some care and attention. Um, as I say, body panel repair sections are available. So we've got multiple owners in the UK who've got cars which are nowhere near perfect by their own admission, but they've got a car they can use, and then one year they will say, right, this year I'm going to get the sills sorted out, um, whatever repair or replacement they need, or another year they'll decide, right, we'll do all the body panels or half of the body panels, at least get them into the same colour, um pending a complete respray further down the line. You know, it's lovely if you've either got a car which is so perfect it needs next to no work, or you can afford to do everything at once. But in the real world, most owners can't, and the journey is part of the pleasure. Yeah. But um, it is part of the pleasure. Within the club, we welcome all owners. In other words, there is no requirement for a car to be perfect. It's a case of if you own it, or even if you're interested and don't yet own one. You're very welcome because learning before you buy something is far better than learning after you've bought it. We have had cases where people have looked at these for sale within the club and thought, yes, but I've seen something much cheaper on eBay. And behold, they go away to eBay and they buy something. And they then bring it along to a rally in triumph. And we say, Ah, we wondered where that one had got to, because we knew about it and were quietly avoiding it on the basis gone. Yeah. Well, not necessarily hoping it had gone, but rather hoping that it would depreciate to its actual value and not the price that some trader or other owner had thought that it was worth. You know, somebody advertises one for sale for let's say £15,000. We know it isn't worth a penny more than let perhaps seven. And hopefully, if these buyers are lucky, they manage to buy one relatively cheaply on eBay. And although they'll have to spend money to get the car up to standard, and it may still have been economical to buy one that was in a better condition to start with, nevertheless, they'll be all right in the end. The trap is if they buy one for the aforementioned £15,000 and then found find they have been landed with a £7,000 car. It has been much worse than that. I know of one car, and I'll give no specifics, which the owner, I believe, paid something around £28,000 for and was warned not to. Um, and the car is actually scrap. It is not recoverable. Well, anything's recoverable if you throw enough money at it, but this one is terminally corroded in places that you really don't need it to be. So it's always better um to have a chat with the car club. We really don't bite. We're happy to meet anyone with an interest, whether they own a car or not. Um, come along, have a chat with us, have a ride in a car. You might even get lucky and get the chance to drive one, because people come to the DS and the ID from all sorts of backgrounds. Some have owned these in the past and what. To return to them. Some have say they have always wanted one of these. It's you know been a long-term aspiration, and now finally they've got to it. In some cases, the owners are relatively young, surprisingly. So we have owners in their twenties and thirties, which not the owner group that you would necessarily associate with the car, and that includes some young ladies. Um, this is not necessarily a male thing. So, you know, it's it's a wide range of owners and potential owners, but we always say, come and talk to us first, meet us at the classic motor show in November, the restoration show in March, come along to one of our rallies, look us up on the internet, ring us up Good Grief, we'll actually talk to you. And if we can guide you into D ownership, um, all the better. Very few people who've ever owned a D have gone away and said, Well, actually, I was disappointed. Those who've had to sell them for one reason or another have uh ended up feeling, as they say, deprived um and want to come back to one. So, you know, they once you've got into one and found its virtues, you tend to want to stay with them.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it becomes part of you and it it's like a family friend, I guess, isn't it really? Like a member of the family, or an extension or not I forgive me, I'll say an extension of yourself.

SPEAKER_03 45:47

Well, there there is that. I mean, there is the there is the um rumour that in period they were owned by designers, architects, uh men of taste and discernment, etc. etc. That was true up to a point, but you didn't have to be an enthusiast to own it. Many people bought them simply as large family cars, particularly in France. So uh buying one now, on the other hand, as I say, is often the fulfilment of a dream, but the beauty of it is that in this case there is substance behind the dream. The car is actually as good as it's made out to be. Um, there are cars on the market, and again I will name no names, which look more appealing than they actually prove to be in practice. The D is not one of those. Um, it tends to exceed expectations.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Wow. So there's really no fear, Lynn, is there, providing you've you go into it with your eyes open and you garner the experience of the Citroen Car Club, which will help you give you that advice and support, and ultimately you've got a fantastic organization that once you've bought your car, you can get into and join and share that joy with the people who already know how wonderful they are. So it needn't scare people, this car, should it? No, it doesn't need to do.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

As I say, it needs more servicing than a modern car, some care and attention, a good rust-proofing treatment is a very good idea, but the the parts backup is excellent, the knowledge is excellent, because that's the other thing, of course. Over the two decades the car was in production, there was subtle development all the way along the line. Citron had got most of the uh any significant bugs out of them in the first few years, but certainly by the second generation they knew exactly how to develop and improve the car, and it's enormously tough and durable, bearing in mind that nobody ever expected these to last the length of time that they have, but they were tough enough to go international rallying in period without braking. Um they are durable long term, engines are good with servicing for quarter million miles. Um so they it's a very usable classic, and there are virtually no issues that haven't already been experienced by owners and addressed by specialists or enthusiasts. Um in other words, you whatever your D might be doing, making funny noises, doing strange things, the answer is going to be there fairly readily. There are virtually no unknown unknowns by now.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Wow. So they seem very reasonable cars to buy as well, unless you're going for something massively concords. What kind of reasonable cars to buy?

SPEAKER_03 49:12

Pricing for I would say the baseline for a usable car, um lower specification, but every bit as enjoyable, at the moment is going to be somewhere around £10,000. For a higher specification car, um or well, obviously the higher the specification, the more conventionally attractive they are, and the more that the higher the values. But low end 10,000, mid is about 20. Once you get up to about 30,000, it's going to be a very nice car, um, and it will be quite high specification as well. Um, anything above 30, once you're up to 40 odd, um, it's going to be something quasi-exceptional. When you get beyond that, it's going to have to be quite remarkable. Um, the day caps, that's to say, the drop head coupés, those are in a different price range, they tend to start at about 90,000 and go to around 150. That said, I have been present at a Parisian sale where one of the late ones sold for 330,000 euros. So they can get interesty. But the normal range in the market is let's say 15 to 25,000 pounds. If you find one at 10, it can be a very, very good buy. It can also be a pile of rubbish, so you've got to be very careful. Um, but if you go above 25, there can be some exceptional cars at the upper end. Obviously, it depends where you buy. Private owner uh is going to be the best value. Dealers, there are relatively few dealers who specialise in these in terms of sales. We've got some very good specialists who service and restore, but they don't keep stocks of the cars because it isn't there aren't enough of them around to do that. But usually scratch the surface, and most people will say, Oh, yes, I know of one of my customers who's thinking of selling his car or changing it for whatever reasons, or somebody has died, and it's not too difficult to get the low down on something which may not even have been advertised. There's always going to be something lurking on the market, and this is infinitely safer than going on to eBay, yeah, where things end up for a reason. Um, there can be good cars on eBay, but equally there can be rubbish. I've seen both. And equally on the uh online sites, such as Car and Classic, um again, there are some nice cars on there, but there are also some cars which are overpriced because to the unwary, a tartied up D with a nice paint job looks very little different from a genuinely sound car which has been looked after. Um obviously, also there are books available. Um the The Original DS is a very good book, uh, which is I think it's been reprinted and is still available. That is a very good reference work in terms of unraveling the different models and the different specifications. In this, as in all things, knowledge is power. You know, research what you're looking to buy first, and it makes it much, much easier when you find something, you'll have some idea what you're looking at.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

That's amazing. Um, and we've got a few minutes. Um it's quite easy to think of these as just the saloon, but what's the following like for the estate cars? Because there was I always think I had a model, it was a understand a Citron Safari as a kid, the dinky car. Um had you saw them as horse racing chase cars with the BBC steaming along with a bloke on the roof, um, because it was basically the only kind of vehicle that would keep the camera steady. Um, you rarely see any state cars, um, but they obviously are out there. Um how is the market for those? And are there any special issues that you need to be aware of, perhaps any more than saloons?

SPEAKER_03 54:20

There were always fewer of them in the first place. Okay. So logically, fewer have survived. However, they were one of relatively few big estate cars available in period. In other words, the other major manufacturers were Volvo with the 145, 245s, um, beloved of antique dealers in both cases, Peugeot with the 504 and 505. Now, what this meant was that people who would not have bought a D saloon in period would buy a D Safari, possibly second hand, and they would work it quite hard. In other words, antique dealers loved them for what they could carry, and the built-in roof rack on the D Safari didn't escape their notice. Builders loved them because you could put three-quarters of a ton in the back, and it would self-level out. Still be them. And um speedway riders loved them because you could put a speedway bike in upright. As somebody once said, not many people know that. Now, on that basis, they tended to get worked fairly well to death in those circumstances. So there are certainly surviving safaris, they are in the minority, they're no more difficult to look at than the saloon, other than there is more metalwork in the rear body structure, and therefore the potential for them to go rusty under the rear side windows. Again, it's all sortable. Um the parts are available. Values because they are um less uh if conventionally desirable than the high specification palaces, they have the non-palace trim, and yet that they are more expensive than the base model saloons, they are mid-range, but a good safari will fetch a high price because of its rarity. They're definitely available though. Uh our recent D-Rally, because the the D section within the Citroen Car Club holds an annual model-specific D rally at Little Hallwood, which is near Milton Keynes, in a lovely thatched village. Um this year I think we had about 70 cars present if I recall, and there would have probably been 10% of those would have been safaris. So not lots. Um, and I would say, just commenting on the usability, um, 30 plus cars went on a drive out on the Saturday afternoon to you know about an hour's drive through the lovely local countryside um to a local place of interest for pub lunch, etc. etc. Um, and the cars are eminently usable for that. It's not just, oh, we've made it to the rally, now we'll park up with a sigh of relief. No, these cars go out, do some running about fast road work, country lane work, they'll deal with it all. Um, everybody goes out and everybody comes back. It's hard, it's hardly a major test of endurance, but they are eminently usable. So that is roughly where the values are on safaris and the saloons. Um obviously they are variable at the moment. The market is quiet, it doesn't the the prices haven't dropped hugely, but the market is certainly relatively quiet, and people are being selective as to what they buy. But there are definitely cars available out there, um and the general trend continues upwards. This is not a model which has risen dramatically in the way of, well, let's say Aston Martin, and I mean no slight on Aston by that, um, where prices shot up quite dramatically and then fell back almost as dramatically. Um with the DS, the prices generally move upwards, they vary up and down a little bit, as most classic car prices do, but without dramatic removement.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

And it's amazing. Andrew, any thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 59:07

Yes, indeed. I think one of my favourite vehicles is the slough-built safari, an incredibly rare vehicle, but uh one owned by my great friend Jamie Pickett, and what a vehicle it is. Just about an eight-seater, again with that um slab of wood to try and tempt Humber and Wolvesley owners to citron. It it truly is a citron among citrons. I would also like to point out that the DS in cinema terms is an exceptionally good getaway car. And I imagine Nigel has seen Go to Blazes 1962. Surprisingly, no, I haven't. I want to, because the um Hoods use a slough built DS in the opening credit, in the opening scene as a getaway.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:00

I shall have to have a look at that. Of course, as getaway cars go, you don't get much more dramatic than De Gaulle's famous getaway from his attempted killers. Um uh La Petit Clamart when the uh they made the assassination attempt on him in the early 60s.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

That's right, 1962.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:21

Yes, and that was you know, why the D was widely credited as the car that saved his life, insofar as it could continue to be driven with one tire punctured, um because it would still drive and steer, and of course the self-leveling suspension could compensate to a degree. Um, De Gaulle was a great fan of the D. Um, but you know that testing it out against um hired killers is probably the ultimate test. And uh you know, some other cars, rear-wheel drive, conventionally sprung, whatever, may not have been able to assist in saving his life. So that's probably the greatest getaway. Um, of course, most uh memorably seen in the Day of the Jackal film.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:17

Where nearly every other car is completely anachronistic, and I never knew there were 1969 Opal Records in 1963, along with Renault 12s, Simker 1100s, men with long hair and flared trousers, etc. etc. Um, on a slightly happier note, the 1969 Anglo-American French film The Brain has a Citroën E Day cut in half, and of course it continues on its progress.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:45

Fantastic. It has been amazing. Thank you very much indeed for coming on the show again. Um absolutely amazing as always, and uh I think we're definitely gonna have to have some regular sort of buyer's guide to citrons because we could do this every six months on Citron, couldn't we, if you're able to niggas and pick a different model each time.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:18

I'm happy to uh be amazing. I've I'd be delighted only an outline, but you know obviously it has to be within the limits of the uh of the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

But absolutely. We don't have a set of spanners that we can demonstrate and other podcasts may be available for spannering, but it it is an us, unfortunately. But hopefully we've given people today a very good feeling and confidence, really. Um that the Citron DS is indeed a vehicle that they can use every day if they have to, and they can purchase it and enjoy it without having their limbs removed, which is um a good thing to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:05

Certainly the case. Essentially, I think the one thing I would want people to take away from this is the the support, the enthusiasm, and the information is all available within the club. Talk to us first, don't buy a DS without doing so, but don't be afraid of doing so once you have.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:31

That's amazing. Thank you. Thank you very much, and we'll speak to you again soon, Nigel.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:39

We hope so. Thank you for thank you for having me, and you're both very welcome. Thank you.