Modern Movements in the Church

In today’s episode, we’re diving into a big question: how do different movements within the Church enrich or challenge our faith?

We begin with God’s promises in Deuteronomy 7:6–7, 9, where we’re reminded that God chooses His people not because of their greatness or numbers, but because of His faithfulness and love. That sets the tone for our conversation about unity, identity, and belonging within the Church.

Throughout the episode, we use Terri and Terry from Monsters University as a fun analogy for two major spiritualities in the Catholic Church: Traditional Latin Mass Catholics and Charismatic Catholics. Like the conjoined twins, these groups can seem wildly different in personality and expression, but they’re still connected to the same body and ultimately moving toward the same goal — a deeper relationship with Christ.

We spend some time clarifying vocabulary because terms like “Traditional Catholic,” “Rad Trad,” and “Charismatic” can carry a lot of assumptions. We talk about how Traditional Catholics are often deeply drawn to the Church’s historic liturgy and reverence, especially the Traditional Latin Mass, while “Rad Trads” tend to represent a stricter or more separatist mindset. On the other side, we explore the Charismatic Renewal movement that grew after Vatican II and emphasizes the active presence of the Holy Spirit through expressive worship, contemporary music, and spiritual gifts.

From there, we walk through three major differences between these groups: liturgy, doctrine, and community worship style. We discuss how Traditionalists often value structure, precision, and reverence, while Charismatics lean toward spontaneity, personal conversion, and experiential prayer. Even though those differences can create tension, we also reflect on how they reveal the richness and diversity within Catholic spirituality.

Most importantly, we talk about what these groups actually share. Despite the external contrasts, both traditions are deeply devoted to Christ, committed to the Church, and passionate about prayer and evangelization.

By the end of the episode, we come back to the idea that the Catholic Church has always made room for different spiritual expressions. Instead of focusing on which group is “right,” we challenge ourselves to appreciate the beauty of that diversity while staying rooted in Christ and the core truths of the faith.

Reflection Question: What does the diversity of worship look like within your church community? Within your own prayer life?

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the Glory and the Pride, the podcast where we explore the beauty and the struggles of living out our Catholic faith.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

I'm your host, Harley Flynn, and I'm also here, probably put today. We're just two friends finding the grace and the grind of motherhood and ministry while praying to Venus, responding to your text a week later because, well, you got distracted and forgot, and looking up phrases on Urban Dictionary just to make sure we're not accidentally saying something inappropriate. We take your questions from life and the grind and look for the glory woven into your story. So let's dive in. The moments where holiness and hot messes meet.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Raleigh, I love whenever you add those things to the intro, and they're always so true. They're so off the cuff, but they're accurate. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

So accurate.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Thank you for having that and letting us all feel seen. Um, I have an icebreaker for you today. Everyone's favorite thing is an icebreaker. I want you, Raleigh, to enter into a world where the Earth day is now 25 hours instead of 24 hours.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

What is that extra hour in Raleigh's life? Like, what would your day if you had 365 extra hours in a year? One extra hour a day. What you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

That's a really, really good one. So, like, I should say, like, I'd spend that hour in prayer, and that would be great. Realistically, I'd probably just be able to do more laundry. Like, I would love to spend that time in prayer or like spend that time with my family. That would be wonderful, but I'll probably just fold more clothes because five people make a lot of dirty clothes, and that is what I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Especially when three of them are little and the food and the play-doh and the grass is everywhere. If I'm honest, I think I would try to sleep a little extra.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah, that's true. Maybe a nap.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Wouldn't that be great? Um, yes, because sleep is important for all people and all things. I'm a temple of the Holy Spirit, and I require a certain amount of sleep that I don't currently get.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

But as okay, maybe maybe this is just me, maybe it's the same for you. But as I get older, I notice the less sleep I actually need. Is that normal?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

I think that's normal insofar as as you go through stages, your body does need more and less sleep because of the different things that are happening in your development. Um, but also I think just as a mother, your brain is programmed to anticipate that you will not get that sleep. So then your body's just like, well, we're gonna do without it and we're gonna move ahead.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Yeah, we didn't have that on the agenda today to sleep. So we're not planning for it. No, that's not my brain.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

We're gonna do something else. But we are gonna go ahead and jump in to God's promise for today. Just a reminder, we always do a God's promise to remember that even though we are experiencing the grind and the lack of sleep, God has good things for us. So today's promise comes from Deuteronomy chapter seven, verses six through seven, and then a jump over to nine. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you from all the peoples on the face of the earth to be a people specially his own. It was not because you are more numerous than all the peoples that the Lord has set his heart on you and chose you, for you are really the smallest of all peoples. Know then that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God, who keeps covenant mercy to the thousandth generation toward those who love him and keep his commandments.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

So amen, though. To follow that, let's dig into today's main question. How do different movements within the church enrich or challenge our faith? So, quick disclaimer: we encourage you, the listener, to take our words and hold them up against church teaching, sacred scriptures, secret tradition, especially if something doesn't sit well with you. It could be the Holy Spirit's prompting for you to dig a little deeper on certain topics, or it can just be our human era, you know, on our part. But either way, we ask you to bring everything to prayer.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Yeah. So now that we've got the legal stuff out of the way, Raleigh, I'd love to hear your take on today's questions about the movement in the church.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Love to. So when we talk about movements in the church, we're not talking about the constant standing, sitting, kneeling, standing, sitting, kneeling of the church. Like that is immediately where my mind goes. And there's also like different seasons within, you know, the church. We have the liturgical season, and that is just a constant revolving door of Advent, and then we have ordinary time, then Lent, then Easter, then well, we have Christmas between I'm so into Advent.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

I love Advent.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

For whenever you listen to this right now, we're recording this during the season of Advent. So like I am locked into we're in Advent, we're not in Christmas yet. But movements within the church is actually referring to something that I think a lot of modern day Catholics aren't familiar with, especially those that were born well after Vatican II. So the movements within the church are referring to these two different sects that we have. It's the modern day charismatic Catholics who enjoy and appreciate modern day worship songs and things like that, and then our more traditional Catholics who prefer, you know, the traditional Latin mass and things like that. And I'm gonna dig into like the vocabulary of them too, but first I have to share where my mind goes when I think about these two movements within the church. So there's this Pixar movie called Monsters University, and it is the you know, Mike Wazowski and Sully, they go, it's it's the prequel before Monsters Inc. And they're in the university and they join this fraternity, and there's these two characters in their fraternity named Terry with a Y and Terry with an I, and they're conjoined twins, and it's hilarious because one of them is a dance manger and the other one's like, and I'm not, and they're just polar opposites, but they're they're conjoined, right? They're conjoined twins. These brothers are physically connected by their bodies, uh, and also intrinsically connected, you know, through their DNA, through their experiences in life. But even if they have all of those things that connect them, right, they're still two different people. They are still two people with well, monsters with different personalities. So even if they were separated, you know, that connection that they share internally, it would still hold because it's a bond intrinsically a part of who they are. But the bond could suffer if they allow themselves to grow apart because of this newfound freedom they have if they were separated. But we see them throughout the movie so opposite to one another and so kind of um what's that like big vocabulary word? Juxtaposition, juxtapose? Yes, yeah, that's a $10 wood. So they're so opposite, but they are they're still working in synced. And I just I love to pick apart Pixar movies for their theology, and that's a really, really good one because personally that's how I view, right, the two different major movements within the Catholic Church. This is how I personally picture the two spiritualities within the church that we call the traditional Latin mass goers, right, and the charismatic Catholics. And it's not like you can't be anything other than these two, but those are the two main movements that I think we predominantly see. So whether you've experienced one of these spiritualities, both or neither, this episode is going to hopefully help you understand the richness that each bring and how they're fundamentally striving for the same goal, right? A deeper relationship with Christ and fidelity to the church. But first, I feel like we have to do a little bit of a vocab lesson.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Both were teachers, meaning know that the if you don't have the words correctly in your brain, then words have meaning won't make sense.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Words have meaning, they have meaning, that's why we have to use them properly. I could do a whole episode on words with their meaning, but let's digress another day. So, what do we mean by traditional Catholics or what some people in you know Catholic social media have referred to as the rad trads? Traditional Catholics, those are those who have a deep love for the church's like long-standing liturgical traditions, especially the Trinity Mass, aka the traditional Latin Mass, which I think a lot of millennial Catholics might be unfamiliar and unaware that the standard practice of the church until about Vatican II in the 1960s was to say the Mass in Latin, the priest would face the altar. That's how the Mass was said, which is you know, 1960s, that's over 60 years ago. Like I hear 1916, I think, oh, 40 years ago, but like, nope, that's 60. Like millennial math. That's millennial girl math if I've ever known one. But like, side note, the theology teacher and me would love to do an entire episode on the magisterium and ecumenical councils. Like, I just would love to nerd out about that, but I'm gonna try to hold it down so I can focus on the case.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Also, like that, listeners, you can post a question where you say, I would love to hear about the ecumenical councils of church history, please jump.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Talk about them from whole episode. That would be fun. But if not, just say you absolutely would hate it, and then I'll just talk about it with myself. But I digress. So the traditional Latin Mass in the 1960s after Vatican II, the Mass was more modernized. It was started to be said in what's called the people's vernacular, meaning the language of the people, wherever they were, whichever you know, country, community, and whatnot. And within this group of the traditional Catholics, we have what some groups have called the Rad Trad, shorter for radically traditionalist, which is a little bit more specific and can refer to individual groups who take a little bit more of a stricter or more separatist approach to these traditions. Um, and it's they've got a cool name. Like if you're calling someone rad, you know it means radical, it's still like, I don't know, it's a positive in my book. So you've got your traditional Catholics, and then you've got what's called the charismatic renewal, which we have some groups. Um, we're from the Archdiocese of New Orleans, we have a lot of groups that have charismatic qualities within them. So the charismatic renewal, it emerged after Vatican II. Um, charismatics they emphasize the active, dynamic presence of the Holy Spirit. Their worship often has like, you know, spontaneous prayer. They focus a lot on spiritual gifts and spirituality, especially on the gifts of like speaking in tongues and prophecy, and they emphasize a lot of like personal conversion. Both movements are recognized by the church. It's not like they're these two, you know, subgroups within the church that the church is like, what are you guys doing here? Like the church recognizes these groups as forms of worship, right? And I've experienced both in high school and in college. I was part of a group called the Charismatic, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal of New Orleans, and they did, you know, youth groups and retreats and stuff, and they were a very big part of my spiritual growth. Um, and in the traditional Latin Mass, I've actually attended traditional Latin Mass a few times when I was in high school, my ex-boyfriend and his family went to traditional Latin Mass, so I would go with them and both beautiful forms of worship, but obviously I felt more called and more at home in the modern day mass where you know the priest would face us and during the consecration he would say the prayers in in English or in our vernacular, and that's just both beautiful forms of worship, but that is just where the spirit has led me. So we see that they're different, but we have to remember they're same, same. So differences yet same, same. So what are the major differences within these things? So first we've got the liturgy, the Catholic, the traditional Catholics, they prefer the extraordinary form, aka the Latin Mass, and it's known for its uh silence and its reverence. And uh it's very, you know, women they wear veils. That's kind of like an ex an expectation. All women will wear veils into church, and the charismatics, they celebrate the ordinary form, which is what most Catholic churches celebrate now, often with contemporary music, you know, dynamic preaching, sometimes spontaneous worship, but they're two very, very different experiences worshiping the same God, right? Their approach, their approach to doctrine, like the teachings of the church, um, they follow the Vatican, right? They both listen to the Pope, but their traditionalists they tend to emphasize a stricter adherence to doctrine, rubrics, and long-standing rituals, while charismatics really emphasize the experience and how the spirit moves within the hearts of its people and how God speaks personally and prayer and how the spiritual gifts shape discernment. So if I'm looking at both of these, you think, oh, well, if we put them both together, then that's like that's the whole pie, right? Um, and and I think that's how a lot of people are. Like, I really, really like this over that. Uh, and we can kind of get like a you against me mentality, but what is our goal, right? Our goal is heaven, our goal is salvation. So we're gonna talk about same, same in a minute. Um, the last thing different is that the traditional, the traditionalists, they communicate um their communities often gravitate towards structure. You know, they have like their scheduled devotions, their processions, their novenas, their very formal prayers. And the charismatic communities kind of embrace expressive worship, I guess you can call it, you know, uplifting hands and personal testimonies and praise sessions, you know, prayer groups, things like that. If I saw someone in my church today raising their hands during praise and worship, I wouldn't be, you know, scandalized or think anything of it. But I'm sure, you know, the modern day person just walking in a church wouldn't be as familiar with that in a Catholic church, but it is an acceptable form of worship. These differences, they create, they can create tension because people see differences as something negative, right? I think, and that's a generalization. I know we don't all view it that way, but I think a lot of the time we see differences as a negative instead of just different access, different roads to access the Father. But there's also some things that really highlight the vast spectrum of Catholicism and worshiping the same God if we recognize these differences.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Sure. And I think also one thing that I've heard the reason I think this was a listener question is because whenever we sometimes experience these differences in a community, the comment tends to be something to the effect of, well, blank is not Catholic, right? Like that's not what Catholics do, or that's not how it should be. And the the reason I think it creates tension is because we love the liturgy and we love the sacraments and we want it to be handled with care and handled with respect and handled with reverence. So then it becomes a conversation of what does reverence look like? What does worship look like? What is right worship? And that's a big question. So if you are maybe like I was whenever I was really young in college, like you were saying before in high school and college, and you're you're going to a different church with another family, or you are entering a college campus, and there's these different trends and these different groups of people inviting you to a different thing and you're not sure. Am I doing something wrong? Am I doing something that I'm not supposed to be doing? Am I gonna get in trouble? Am I disrespecting God or the church by participating in one or the other? Because both camps will say the same thing, right? That the other way is not correct or the other way is not appropriate. And so I think this became a listener question because people, especially maybe in our age group or younger, would like help navigating that to say, is it okay if I like one or the other? Is it okay for me to go occasionally to a retreat that is charismatic or to a mass that is speaking in Latin? I'm not sure. And so to hear the differences laid out and to get your vocabulary is helpful because hopefully it places the question of the listener on their heart, like at this moment. How much of that did you understand? How much of that did you know before? And where right now do you sort of feel that tension within the church in your heart? Because whatever is true for us as a whole is also true for us as individuals. So if we're experiencing tension as a whole, there's probably a question somewhere in your heart of do I understand that both are true expressions? And do I need to look into that myself? Do I know anyone who maybe would consider themselves different from me in that form of prayerful expression? Do I have an inclination? Or do I just kind of go on Sunday and whatever my parish church does is what I expect? And like, do I want for more? Do I want to look into either of these things? Do I love one or the other and maybe judge people in the other camp? What is the truth of that? Um, and I just invite listeners, just maybe pull that. That where do I stand in this? Either as an ignorant bystander just figuring it all out, or maybe I've already kind of chosen a side. Um, because we're gonna jump in in just a second to how these are the same and how we can like love one another through all of this. But just think for a moment, where's your tension? And and Raleigh, do you experience any of that tension right now?

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Yeah, and I think also something you pointed out is like the heart of where these questions are coming from. Like you're you're concerned about getting, and I say you, like as the listener, you're concerned about getting it right because you know that it's important. I remember growing up, we would go to, I went to Methodist youth group with my one of one of my friends, and we would go to their mass on Sunday, but I would still go to my mass. You know, I go to the Catholic Mass on Sunday as well, make sure that I was there receiving the Eucharist, being in the Blessed Sacrament, right? I was worshiping God the same way, not the same way, but I was worshiping the same God. Excuse me, I should say. But there's something to be said about being in full communion with the sacraments. And I think a lot of the times we worry so much about getting it right, and if we are in the territory of getting things wrong, like for me personally, I remember in high school when I would go to the the traditional Latin Mass with my ex-boyfriend and his family. Wonderful, wonderful, beautiful, you know, form of worship. But it was always very tension-filled because if I went with them to their Latin mass, I would always feel like, oh, I still need to go to my church as well. Or if he went to church with us, he'd always kind of feel like, oh, well, I mean, I still need to go to mine as well. We get so caught up in the the minute details that we forget the heart of why we're there.

unknown 20:03

Right?

SPEAKER_00 20:04

More of a performance and it's more of a obligation or task than to like focus on the worship.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yes, that's perfect. And at that point, is it for you or is it for others? Like, is it for you to to be there to worship God and to be in his presence, or is it so that others can make sure that they saw you there?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

I know I think that brings it back to God's promise because we heard in God's promise today that Christ has chosen us. You know, in Deuteronomy, we're talking in the Old Testament, so maybe you're more comfortable thinking Old Testament Father, but we know that what is true of the Father is true of the Son and the Spirit. So we hear in Deuteronomy that God, Father, Son, and Spirit has chosen a people and that he promises to be faithful to those people. So then our question really is how do we respond faithfully to our faithful God? And that is the essential question of these movements to understand where am I faithful? And the answer is in both camps, you are faithful. And it's about prioritizing the worship, prioritizing the relationship with God, and not making an idol of either camp, right? Because just because you go to Latin Mass or you wear a veil or you, you know, have a long beard, whatever, that's kind of part of the stereotype, right? Yeah. My husband has a beard. I have nothing against beards. Um, I have nothing against any of these people because they are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Just because you go to that particular Latin Mass, maybe that is where you find your faithfulness. That is where you are inspired to worship the Lord, to feel like you are in line with the church, to feel like you are in line with God's will. That's great. Maybe you also love to go to, it's usually the evening mass, the 5 p.m. Mass, where there's an acoustic guitar, and maybe there's a Matt Mark. Song at the reflect. I was gonna say we call that the Matt Marmat. Matt Marmat, and maybe you have your person who sits in the front row, who's the youth group leader who raises their hands and who says amen randomly through the homily, and that we love that person, right? So to be able to recognize both camps are faithful to God. And as we heard before from Raleigh, the church has said both are acceptable forms of worship, both are within the expression of faith, because that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to express our faith just like we might do in our fashion, just like we might do in our musical taste or whatever that looks like. What the Lord has placed in us, we are called to express our reflection of Him. And the Lord is infinite, and our expressions of worship for the Lord can also be infinite. So then it's just a matter of questioning how do I meet the requirement to attend Mass on Sunday, participate faithfully in the sacraments, follow the magisterium of the church, and then how I worship the Lord can be a really fun question of how do I express my love? Am I the kneel and look down at the floor and hold my hands fast together with a rosary between them, silent and reverent and pious? Am I hands up, tambourine, you know, speaking in tongues, all the things? Both are true and good, beautiful expressions of love of God. And we are okay to kind of play that camp a little bit, but it does require, like you were saying before, Riley, knowing your words, knowing the things that are important, knowing what is my absolute obligation, what is my absolute, like this is what the church wants of us in order to worship the Lord and participate well in the sacraments. But if you want to say amen during the homily, you're okay. You're gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

You're gonna be you're gonna be okay, honey. And I think like going off of that, thinking about how these are very different, but they're both acceptable forms of worship that might be a little confusing because many of us see like, no, there's only one way to, like with you know, math, there's only one way to solve this problem that is gonna be acceptable, blah, blah, blah, blah. But we all know there's multiple ways to get to an answer. But looking at how these are the same, both groups are profoundly devoted to Jesus Christ and the church. They both want holiness, they both crave authentic discipleship, right? When done well. So whether it's through like a missionary zeal or quiet witness, both movements emphasize spreading the gospel and bringing others to Christ. We have, you know, some that will be more devoted to the rosary in the divine office or in silent contemporary contemplative prayer, or you might have someone who's more comfortable with praying in tongues or spontaneous praise or gathering in, you know, groups for prayer, but both have what in common, right? The power of prayer, and they see its transformative grace through living a life of prayer. I think something you pointed out that really resonated with me was this idea that when we can see differences, and you know, we we might have this idea of, well, this is right, this is wrong, we can get kind of a spirit of superiority, and that should be a red flag in our minds immediately, right? Like that's not virtue.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

That's not of God to have this spirit of I'm doing it right, which means you're doing it wrong, which means you're not, you're not gonna get to sit with us in heaven because you're not doing it right. Like that, if if reading your Bible does not make you a more loving and compassionate person, then I don't think you're reading it. I think you're just looking at the words. Like the Catholic Church has always been a home for diverse expressions of spirituality, and that might not seem like the case, but that is the truth. I mean, think of the early church. Some Christians were drawn to contemplative prayer and contemplations, but others were drawn to missionary work, and some were called to monastic silence and others to prophetic preaching. And if we all had these early church fathers and these, you know, boots on the ground missionaries in the church, if we only had one way of doing it, then it would be really isolating and uninviting to the rest of the world. The church requires this diversity. So I think the question isn't which group is right, because I think a lot of the times people, you know, like this person who asked this question is probably wondering, like, okay, what should I do? Like, what's the right answer? There's I think the question is what's right. I think it's instead, how can we find the value in the diverse expressions of the faith while staying rooted to its core truths of Catholicism? Because I think when we try to add our own idea and our own theology into it, we can kind of get away from the truth of our core doctrines. And that's when we really have to lean on the teachings of the church and really trust the beauty of Catholicism.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

And that I think is part of what I enjoy about being Catholic is that I can look at a long-standing history that spans so many time periods and so many parts of the world to see that like there is so much that I can lean on. The tradition is so strong. And I heard that from someone who converted to Catholicism from Protestantism, you know, that like if your pastor died as a Protestant, or if your community sort of fizzled, that there was there was nothing else behind it, you know, and that there could be beautiful, wonderful Protestant communities that are like building each other up constantly, but to know that like if you moved, or if you know, whatever is going on in the world affects your church parish, there's another church parish that's gonna do the same liturgy and offer the same sacraments, and you're gonna be able to have the Catholic church still. And I can only imagine what it would have been like to you know be there in 1969 and 1970 with all these people going to the Norvis Odo Mass for the first time, and maybe it felt like they didn't have their church anymore. You can see why that traditional Latin Mass has held so much emotional weight for people because it was the tradition for so long, and then all of a sudden, for it to change, you could totally see why generations and communities would have grasped onto it and said, No, this is my faith, this is my community, this is this is what I want, and this is what I'm used to, and and whatever that looks like. So the change, I'm sure, was traumatic for many people, and in some ways, that trauma is still affecting our church, right? It is something that even though it's been 60 years in the life of the church, that's a relatively short amount of time. So we're still feeling the aftershocks of that change. But what I believe is happening, and what the charismatic renewal is kind of bringing to the surface is that we have made space as a church for the Lord to work in a new way. And the charismatic renewal is one answer to that chasm, like one way of saying, like, hey, you made space for something new, and this is one of those new things where maybe you need to have a relationship with one particular person in the Trinity in a new way, and hear some Holy Spirit magic power, good love that you can explore, you know, because yeah, infinite, you can explore forever.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Yeah, that's really good. I'm happy you pointed that out because I think that that's something that we can also be very dismissive of. And I know I can be dismissive of it as well because what I'm used to is what I'm used to, and it's important to understand and try to empathize with someone who's being presented with something that's new. Because I mean, you think about in the 60s and 70s when they were transitioning to this new form of worship, there was some crazy stuff. Like they had, you know, the priests dressed up as clowns and they had like motorcycles in the church running down. Like they they kind of the felt banner period was wild, and right was wild.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

The clergy, right, the clergy was experiencing that trauma too of like some of our priests went through a seminary where there was a lot more question marks than there were, you know, exclamation points. And just figuring that out, I'm sure that it was cuckoo for a while, and our our our dust might still be settling, and that's part of why we're feeling this tension and having these questions.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Yeah. It's like when you know those teachers who went through COVID in the years after COVID, like we know what it used to be, and we know what it is now, and we know the growing pains of what happened in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yeah. And I'm sure 60 years from now, they'll still be talking about that in education circles.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And that's that is the beauty of Catholicism, people, that there's room for variety as long as our heart and our doctrine and our discipline remain anchored to Christ and his church. That's where our heart must be. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Amen.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Amen.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

We hope that you enjoyed today's episode and pray that the spirit has guided your reflection. In the next episode, we're discussing legalism, which unfortunately has nothing to do with legally blonde. See you in the next episode. Through the grind and the grace, we're praying for you. Please pray for us too. See ya.