Mom Rediscovered with Jen Butler

You can find Jen on IG @jenbutlerwrites.

Her website is  jenbutlerwrites.com 

And you can get her book here or where books are sold. 

I’m Samantha Perkins and this is Why You Write That?!?!?  This podcast is for anyone who wonders what authors were thinking when they shared that really detailed secret or their most embarrassing moment.  For writers, future writers, readers, and those who love words Join me as I interview authors and writers to uncover the truth behind why they share all the of those cringey details and what it feels like to air it all! So press play and get ready to hear the story behind the words

Transcript

0:35

Hi Jen. Hello. I'm so excited to be talking to you. I am really pumped for your book. I am thrilled to be here and congratulations on this podcast. I'm so excited to be one of your first guests. Yes, thank you. I think that this will be interesting for authors and readers and anyone who likes to write or wants to get around that vulnerable piece of writing. I think that this will be fun for them to listen to. So yes, I love it. Yes. Let me introduce you. Jen Butler is an author, speaker, alcohol free life coach for women and fitness instructor who believes wholeheartedly in if the transfer. Transformative power of sharing stories. A mom of two middle schoolers. She draws from her own journey through motherhood, midlife, perimenopause, to encourage women to practice self-compassion and forge meaningful connections, empowering them to take up space as their amazing, authentic selves and their families, friendships, careers and communities. She is a graduate of Brown University and the University of Cambridge and lives with her family in Westchester County, New York. Ah, that's me. Yes, that is you and you do absolutely do that in your new book, which just came out yesterday. Yes. Congratulations. Thank you. As I said to you before we started recording, I, this is the morning after pub day and I feel like I was hit by a train made of books and birthday cake. Wild. I know. Wild experience. Yes. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your your book Mom Rediscovered. Yes, so this is my debut memoir. It's called Mom Rediscovered, my Midlife Breakup With Drinking and Diet Culture. This book is about seven years in the making, but it is really the dream of my lifetime. I have wanted to write a book since I first started journaling in middle school. It's just always something that I wanted to do. It was a bucket list goal for me to be holding my book in my hands, and now I am. And that is. Just so surreal, but also feels so real at the same time. It feels both oh my gosh, how could I actually have done this? And also, of course I did this. Here she is, this book, I have always wanted to write a book. I always, I think, knew it was going to be a memoir because that's just how I've always written. I've always written journals and blogs and all that kind of stuff. I love sharing stories from my life, but drawing out the larger themes that, and just throwing'em out there and seeing if people resonate with them. So I just, but I just wasn't sure what story I had to tell for a long time. And when I started my alcohol free journey in 2018, that's when I thought to myself, Ooh. I'm doing something pretty big here. Something that is meaningful to me and I think can mean something to other people. I also read a ton of quit lit at that time, like during those years. So quit lit is the, for listeners who may not know, it is the term for the, layman's term for the genre of memoir that are books that are about quitting drinking. Yeah. Or drugs, I guess that counts. And so I read a lot of Quizlet and I thought, oh my gosh, I think, I can do this. I have alet story on my hands. So that's what I started to write, and I wrote that for a couple of years, just writing scenes here and there, starting to piece things together into the arc that was my life. And then I stalled out and I couldn't figure out for a long time why I was stalling. And what I realized was. I, when I first stopped drinking, I thought that was gonna solve all my problems, like I'm quitting drinking. That's it. That is the solution. I'm gonna have it all together now.'cause alcohol was my problem, but actually quitting drinking just made me see with clear eyes all of the other work I had to do in my life. And so once I stopped drinking and got to the end of my quit lit arc. I realized not only did I have a lot more work to do, but there was so much more I wanted to tell. And so I had to do some more living. So I did, yeah. I had to do some more work. So I did. And then, a few years down the line, I got to a point where I thought, okay, now I have my book. Yes. Now I know the full arc that I wanna tell. And that meant going back into my childhood, surfacing some trauma there, going all the way through to midlife, motherhood where I am now. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for saying it just like this. And I, you're the second person that I've interviewed this week alone who talked about the length of time that it's taken to get their story out. Yes. And I just love this so much because one of my big spiels is using writing as a tool for coping and Yeah. Yes. And I feel so strongly that, yeah, you couldn't. Sign up for one of those, write your memoir in 12 weeks scenarios, and you could certainly push out probably a pretty good book, but like, why not go ahead and take the time and also do like an immense amount of healing, which does happen when you write a memoir and you take your time to do it. I have said to so many people that writing this book is. The most healing and cathartic thing I have ever done. It is the greatest gift I have ever given myself that I could ever give myself. Writing my way through the traumatic moments of my life, but also the really good stuff. Yeah, and being able to absorb that. While I was healing through the trauma, through writing, through the trauma I'm so as daunting as it was when I was at the outset of this, to think, oh my gosh, this is gonna take me like five years, seven years. That's so long. It was so incredibly daunting and that thought alone. Stifled me at various points along the way, but now that I am holding my book in my hands, I would not change a thing. I would not. I'm so glad I didn't try to write it in a year or even two years, or even six months, i'm really glad that I took my time with it and waited to do enough living so I had the full arc of what I wanted to share. Yes. I love that so much, and I'm really glad that you took the time too, because the book is amazing. I was lucky to have, thank you an early advanced copy and I read it. I was I remember feeling so frustrated because I would be reading it and then I'd have to go and take my kids somewhere and I'm like, dammit. Like, why do I have to, have responsibilities and being an adult right now, like that is a very high compliment. Yes. I just wanted to sit in my chair and read it from start to finish, and I was so pissed off every time I was interrupted, but. It was amazing and it is amazing. Thank you. And I know that it has absolutely met the goal of sharing who you are the truth of who you are, and then that connecting to people, I love nothing more than storytelling as a source of connection, yes. And yes, you did an amazing job with that. Just, reminding us that we're like, we're all in this together, yeah. And we might have different lives and whatever. So many different factors, but there some of what midlife moms are struggling with you know, all of us might be having some of those thoughts and feelings. Yes. And beliefs. Exactly. And self-doubt and fear and all of the things. And you touched on every one of those and I just couldn't get enough and I'm so excited about it. Thank you. Yes. So what I'm really talking about is. Oh, when I've said this over and over again, and I'm gonna keep saying it, but when I'm working with writers a lot of the time women will say, I just can't write this part because I'm terrified of being judged. What will people think? I've never told this to anyone before. And, I do love it when someone's, putting things in their book that they haven't shared outside of their therapy sessions, yes. And yes, but how, how would I ever get over that? In fact, I've had people say, everyone that I ever know. We'll have to be dead before I ask this book out. Oh I hear it. Yeah. Yeah. That resonates with me, that's for sure. Yes. And what I wanna say is, yeah, same. But you do it anyway. Like somehow you just do it anyway. So can you talk, just before you read your part about how did you. What was your process like for am I really saying this? Am I really putting this in my book? Am I really gonna talk about this? And what were some things that, that you had to work through in order to do that? Yep. Oh my gosh. First of all, everything you just said, I felt in my body, from my fingertips down to my toes. I literally, my entire body was feeling those things. What you were saying about what people have said to you, I. Have felt all of that. I went through all of that. And again, I can't emphasize enough how really going there and going into these dark places, some of which I had not accessed since they happened was the, is the most healing thing I have ever done. I some early drafts of this book. Were not what this current book is. I glossed over a lot of stuff, right? Because I wasn't ready to go there. I was terrified to go there. And I worked with an editor who really was a straight shooter, and that's exactly what I needed at the time. And she said, this is a journal. What I need you to do is make it a book. Okay? And if you're gonna make it a book. You need to go there. And I said, but I'm terrified to go there. And she said it's up to you. But if you go there, this will be a very good book. And if you don't, it's just not gonna connect with people. Ugh, man. So that was really great advice. Yes. And I know.'cause I do a lot of editing too. And when I'm reading something like, it's so funny, I'm editing something right now and I'll pick up on a piece and I'll say, what's, what's happening here? I'm not connecting. I'll say that to the writer and the writer will say, that's because I didn't wanna share the story. Yes, exactly. And it's exactly, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And she's this particular person is I hate you. I'm like, I'm sorry. Do what? Do what you want. But yes, that very, that's what makes you such a good editor and coach, because that is exactly it and that's what writers need to hear, and it's listen, it's your choice if you don't wanna go there. That is also a choice you can make. Correct. Just know that your book will not connect if you don't. Yeah. And that is terrifying. But I also know, I'd read enough quit lit by the time I started writing this book to know that the stories that. That most impacted me were the stories that went all the way there. Yeah. And a lot of the books I read, because a lot of what's out there in terms of alcohol, sobriety books, it are books about rock bottom stories. Yeah. And one of the reasons why I felt so compelled to share my story is that it's not a rock bottom story. Yes. I never hit rock bottom. And I'm really proud of that. At the same time, my story's not as dramatic, but I also think my story is more universal because of that. Yeah. And so I, I felt okay, this is actually really important that I figure out how to get this book out there. Yeah. Because this is a book for every woman who. Doesn't wanna hit rock bottom or hasn't hit rock bottom, but knows in her heart she has to change her behavior and she deserves to change her behavior, but doesn't know how to do it. Or doesn't even know where to start. Yes. But in order to do that, I needed to share the moments that while they were not like complete rock bottom moments, they were. Moments for me that were traumatic, that were formative. And that led me, that ultimately led me down my path of gray area drinking and face first into wine mom culture. Yeah. Because only by going all the way there. Was I then able to show how I came all the way back out. And I think that, that story, that last part of the book of me emerging from that and now facing the rest of my life and doing all the other work that I had to do as I emerged into midlife, perimenopause, all the rest of it. That part of the book is so much more relatable and powerful because I share so vulnerably about the things that happened in my life that got me to my lowest point. Yes, I absolutely agree with that, and I think, I love that you said this on so many levels. My mind is spiraling'cause I wanna comment on everything that you said, but one of the things that I think when someone does have a rock bottom story, a lot of times that's like a public facing story already. So for authors who are writing quit lit, who had a really, like maybe they had an accident or they, went to rehab and their whole family accompanied them there, the people in their lives that kind of already know that part, wow. Yeah. And so I thought about that. Not that it's easier to tell by any means, but it isn't a secret, whereas these stories that you're talking about are things that you've just carried along with you since, for all of these years in particular, the story that you're gonna share with us. This is something that you had to carry for with you for so long that no one knew about. So not only are you putting in your book, but you're also telling your family members and. You're like, oh, by the way, this thing happened. Yeah. Yeah. And I experienced that too.'cause my story doesn't have a rock bottom. In the sense that people are so used to, like catastrophe. Yep. Exactly. Which is why you were one of my original inspirations when I thought oh, maybe I can write a book that's not a rock bottom book. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. But I agree. I thought the same thing. I know that. There are books and great resources out there for people who are at that rock bottom stage. But what about the people who are headed in that direction? And so this is a book of just showing people another way. Hey, you can stop and make a change anytime, right? And you are the only person who knows if you're. Suffering. You're the only person who knows if you're having a hard time right now. And what are you gonna do about that? And hey, here's what I did. And that is so cool. Yeah, exactly. So why don't you share the part of your book that was vulnerable to write, vulnerable to talk about. If you want to, you can just read it and then afterward we'll break it down and talk about it a little bit. Okay. Oh my gosh. This is the part where now I start to get a little nervous. Yes. Because this is it's in my book now, right? So like everyone's reading it. My parents have read it, my, but it's something that I have not talked about yet on a podcast. Okay. And it's something that I have, not really talked about with friends who've read the book, people who come in and gimme feedback on the book, who talk to me about it. It is, I think, the most vulnerable part of my book. It was 100% the hardest scene to write. And I am. Really proud of myself for doing it. But yes, this is the first time I have spoken about this. And certainly the first time I've read it out loud. I didn't even read it out loud to prepare for this podcast. That's okay. So this is the first time I have ever read this out loud. Okay. Vulnerability at its finance. Woo. Let's see it. Here we go. As if I was not suffering from enough of a vulnerability hangover today being the day after my pub day. Okay, no problem. We'll just pile it all on. Okay. This is a scene that takes place on Fire Island when I was 23 and my stepdad had just passed away from colon cancer and a friend of mine took me, whisked me away to Fire Island for a night of fun and escape and some, I was really looking forward to, getting out of my grief spiral. That was my real life at the time. So we were in a house with we stayed the night in a house with her and a bunch of her friends from college. So we, let's see. Okay. And we are starting to play a drinking game. Okay. That's where the scene, that's where the scene picks up. Every time I drank, my eyes flicked across the circle to the cute boy. He was always watching me smiling. I was drunk by the time the group was ready to leave for the bar. Shayna and I linked arms and walked a few short blocks to a spacious restaurant with a long, glossy bar and thumping music, what can I get you to drink? The boy was suddenly right beside me. Close enough for me to smell his clean scented deodorant and see the beads of sweat on his forehead. Sauvignon Blanc please. He returned a few minutes later with a large glass of white wine. It didn't taste like Sauvignon Blanc. Maybe he hadn't heard my order, but it hardly mattered. I drank it like water. Anyway, this night was exactly the escape I needed. Here I was on a picturesque island, far removed from Manhattan. There were no memories of John here, no reminders. Everything about this place was new, including the boy beside me whose hand was now resting on my lower back. The blackout starts right about there. I don't remember how much more I had to drink. I don't remember when we left the boy and I to go back to the house by ourselves. I don't remember saying goodbye to Shayna or her reaction to my leaving the bar with the boy and I don't remember the sex. I do remember waking up in the middle of the night naked with him, also naked, pass out half on top of me. The two of us barely fit on the thin twin mattress. The sheets were twisted around and beneath us, and my skin was soaked with sweat and other fluids. Through the crusty slits of my eyelids, I saw Shayna asleep in the twin bed next to us. A torn condom wrapper was on the floor. Oh, thank God. I let out a shallow breath. I didn't realize I was holding and passed back out again. And then I go on to talk about how the next morning he basically ignored me as we all packed up to leave. And the last paragraph of the chapter is this. For a while, I stalked him on Facebook, but never messaged him. Eventually, I gave up on making anything more out of the night than what it was I had wanted. An escape, not a meet. Cute. And that's what I got. I got exactly what I wanted, what I deserved. Whew. Deep breath. Ugh. Whew. Yep. First of all, I have to speak to your writing because it's just so vivid and I am right there with you in the scene, and it's just so beautifully told with all of the imagery, and I loved that throughout your whole book. So thank you. Nice job. Thank you. So yeah, that's very vulnerable. So what was that like? Yes. To share, and if I can ask, what have people reacted like your family have, has anybody said anything to you? And what was your fear around that? I, oh gosh. Where to even begin? I carried that night with me. For 20 years. Little less than that. Actually it was about 15 years before I was able to name that experience for what it was, which was sexual assault. Yes. And I share in my book as well what spurred me into that realization. And, but it was 15 years before I was able to acknowledge that. And for those 15 years I. Blamed myself for getting drunk. I thought, it was my fault that I did that. And, he didn't do anything wrong. That was my fault for, I just completely blamed myself. And every time, someone would mention Fire Island, or I would see the friend that took me there that night popped into my head and the shame around it was crippling. Even, and I will go so far as to say that even once I realized it was sexual assault and started feeling like. Okay. This is what it was, f that guy like I now get to be a sexual assault survivor, and wear that mantle and that felt good and strong. But there were still kernels of shame and yeah, doubt and guilt inside. Up to the point that when I was writing that scene, and I have, I don't think I've told this to anybody, Samantha, when I was writing the scene, I just read, I actually Googled, is it sexual assault if you are blackout drunk? Oh my gosh. And Googling that took me to a, like A-A-P-D-F kind of digital pamphlet from I think Arizona State University. That was a pamphlet for college kids that said. If you are in a state of blackout and you know you have sexual intercourse, it is sexual assault. Wow. And that was, I, that was the validation that I needed. Like I still had that shame, I realized I still was carrying that shame. And so reading that pamphlet that was meant for 20 year olds at age 43 and writing my way through that scene. And then progressing further through my manuscript and getting to the scene where I had the realization that it was sexual assault and where I really own that. That was the time when those last little kernels of shame and doubt and guilt evaporated. Yeah. And I really felt healed. Yes. That is so powerful. And gosh, like what a testament to like how women. Don't trust themselves. Like how much work you have to do to trust yourself. Like I, Yeah. And how deeply ingrained Yeah. Some of this messaging is Yeah, exactly. To blame ourselves. Yeah. And back then, at that time you didn't have nearly the access to resources or information. And so of course you tucked that away. And even when you said it like, I'm cringing'cause you're like, I got exactly what I asked. For, like you're just telling yourself even though deep in your core and your soul, that something's not right about this. Yeah. But then allowing yourself to let that trust come through is just it takes so much work and effort. Yep. And I know I'm proud of you for acknowledging that and letting yourself heal through that and Yeah. I have no doubt that sobriety helps a little bit with Sure does. Sure does. Being able to actually, look at being able to be free of the shame of drinking and all of that. Yeah. And and being able to see everything so clearly. I will say too, and I don't know if you experienced this when you were writing your book, but. It. There is something about writing a scene like this and there are many scenes in my book where I felt this way and actually seeing it on my computer screen in black and white, that just makes it like, oh, that's my truth right there. Yeah, there it is. Yeah. And just feeling I, it really empowered me to. Own it in a way that I never had and never would have if I hadn't actually written it out and written it from, an as honest a place as there is inside of me. Absolutely. I always say, and I don't know where I got this, and I will find out and give credit too, but I always say the page reveals, like it shows you something. Yes. You said that to me. Yes. Yep. I love that phrase. It's just, it shows you something that when you take it out of your body and you're ruminating thoughts and all the voices that are adding piling on top of all of the things, and you literally put it on the page, you will see a new side of things. You just, you can't not, yes. And sometimes for some people that side of things isn't great. Like sometimes they're showing you things that you might not wanna, the page is showing you things that you might not wanna see. Yep. But sometimes you are getting a lot of clarity around something so heavy and big that you've just sat inside and Yeah. This is, and I think if it's something you don't want, and that also happened to me in the course of writing this book. But ultimately I know that it is for the best to see those things because, I know that I. I want to go through my life seeing things as clearly and honestly as I can. Yeah, and I guess as a disclaimer, I do wanna say that you should have other practices in place other than just writing to Yes. Help you heal on the side. Yes. I think both you and I were able to write from a place of having already gone through a lot of, like becoming sober and having more like coping skills and, I always do tell people, if you haven't quite healed through it, definitely don't write about it, yes. Yes. You'll have to work through that part. You shouldn't just put out everything and then just see what happens. It's not for, that for sure. And I will say that I found a new therapist two months. Before I finished my manuscript, so yeah, as I was finishing the manuscript in 2024 and really reaching the end of the arc and, but also at the same time, like going back through and really looking at the whole picture. I found a new therapist and I had been seeing her now for over a year and I. That has been absolutely instrumental in all of this because you're right, like this stuff comes up and out, onto the page, but then that's not the end. Yeah. Like you still need a lot of support in dealing with it. I would write and this stuff would come up and out and then I'd be able to go to therapy and cry for 45 minutes and work it through. That was therapy has been. An absolutely instrumental part of writing. I don't, I feel like I will be going to therapy for the rest of my life. As long as my therapist will have me, I'll be seeing her because that really is so important. So important. Yeah. Yes. Yay. For therapy. I'm a big fan too. The best. It's the best. It is. It is. Did you have. Have you had any responses? Not to necessarily that part, but just in general, have you had any responses to your book where you're like, huh. Or anything that kind of made you, wonder did they quite get that part? I just I'm walking you through, like walking other writers through those experiences.'cause I know that those do come up. So yes, I have, although I will also say that. 99% of the feedback I've gotten so far has been exactly what I was hoping for, which is people being like, oh my gosh, like this resonated with me. I felt seen. Yes, I feel like you get me. Where, all of that has been phenomenal. And that was one of my, one of the main reasons for writing the book was to be able to provide that for other women the way that other books have provided it for me. Yeah. Including yours have provided it for me. But I will say there one of my advanced readers left me a review that definitely made me be like, huh? What book did she just read? It was very strange, I think that the gist of it was implying that I was trying to say that my way was the right way. Which is exactly what I'm trying not to do. I am definitely not saying that this is not a prescriptive book. This is just I needed to change and here's how I changed and I'm really proud of myself and I want you to believe in your capability. Yeah. And your ability to create the change that you need to make in your life. It's not like this is the only way. But that's clearly how it was interpreted, and it made me feel very weird and uncomfortable. Yeah. Then I just moved through that and reminded myself that I can't, and I'm gonna have to remind myself of this 50 million times now that my book is officially out, but I can't control how other people are gonna take this book in. I know that. When you read a book, like whatever's going on in your life, you'll read a book differently in kind of one stage of life or in one moment of your life. Then you might at a different moment of your life. And I can't control when people are gonna pick up my book, what's going on in their lives, how they're going to respond to what they see. I think memoir can really be like a mirror. And I think sometimes people don't wanna look in that mirror. That's right. And that's, it's really hard when. Someone then comes back to you and didn't have the experience that you're hoping that they will have? Book reviews are brutal people. Yeah. Are, yeah. Like I think of Glennon Doyle, for example. If you go on and read a lot of her book reviews, people are just like mad. They're like really mad and they're letting her know in a book review. And most people that I know, in fact, everyone that I know that has been working on a book who I know personally, just like what you said, and I know from my book and every person that I'm interviewing on this podcast, the purpose for writing the book was an act of service. And I think that people, first of all, they don't understand that. Book writing is not this lucrative. If only, you're not making millions if only. And yeah, so people, it's like they get your book and they read it, and if it doesn't perfectly resonate, they do, they get upset. And I think part of it is because they think that you are like profiting, like majorly profiting from things or, yes. What you said, like they're, they are filtering it through their own experiences and then that's coming out and I just wanna remind people that Yeah. Most. Most authors I know write this as an act of service. Oh my God, I figured this out and I'm just gonna tell you about it. Pull up a chair, girl, I'm gonna tell you the story really fast. And it is, not prescriptive by any means. You're not trying to tell people how to live their lives. You are telling a story and people forget that it, sometimes it can just be a really fun story. We don't have to resonate with everything that Jen says. Exactly. It can just be like, Hey, that was a really. Good gossipy read, and I did try to spill a little t here and there throughout the book you did. You did. And so a lot of what you write in a memoir is so serious, but a lot of it's really fun too. And I think that you touched on all of that just really beautifully. And thank you. I think that by sharing your story. Literally the story of sexual assault I do think will open up eyes for people. There might be somebody reading it right now who hasn't yet claimed what happened to them who are still living in that shame. Yes, and I can't imagine it more important than you, them being like that. How many times, how many women do you know that experience has happened to many? Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And so for you to give voice to somebody who doesn't quite have that voice yet or who hasn't cultivated it, I just, I think it was well worth it. And if you do get any backlash, I think you can handle it. Yeah I'll come back to you though, or I'll come back to this podcast episode and be like, okay, at minute. Such and such. I know she's gonna gimme the advice that I need because somebody just tore into me on Amazon and I need a little support right now. Yes. But so far and because you deserve it and it's worth and you are worthy of it, everybody. I've seen so many beautiful reviews and reviews have been amazing. Yes. Just. Yeah, e everybody's really excited and I think that's not just because they love you, but it's because the book is that good, thank you. Just keep telling yourself that. Thank you. So congratulations. Thank you so much. Yes. How can guests find you and how can they find the book? They can find me primarily on Instagram, although I am on TikTok and Facebook occasionally. But my handle, my social handle is at Jen Butler, writes Jen with one N and my website is jen butler writes.com. So there's information on there about my book, my Substack Best Mom Never, and also my coaching programs that I do. All that information is at. Jen Butler writes.com and my book herself has her own cute little website. Okay. And that is mom rediscovered book.com so people can find me in all of those places. Yes, and I will be sure and link. Make it really easy for everyone listening. As soon as you're finished, you can just click the link and buy Jen's book and check out her website and get to know her a little bit better. Her Instagram is super fun and exciting. And so that will be fun for everyone. I'm so thankful that you were willing to share all of this today, and just really happy to know best way to spend the morning after. Yes, and just so many congratulations. Thank you so much Samantha, and congratulations on your podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, we'll talk soon. All right. Bye.