Life Is A Ride with Chris Joseph

You can find Chris Joseph here:

His Substack page is https://chriscaja.substack.com/, where he writes about health, politics, and life.

https://terrainnavigators.com/

His book is sold here:

https://www.amazon.com/Life-Ride-Chris-Joseph/dp/1951407296/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3JAFOZ6QGLGQG&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.SW-l7d0uDTykJjz9buWX6FF2cODMTx6QGkr2OyNNER7w1Q_LXjK-mvgdlhvmk83MorFjXFLIWp_PFF_HEJyt8z3FrJhWd8YvE0Gno7xAfD_1UNEp5cGay1cEkWF7XebETwvqCAlnw7t-QmkHDoOpR3DEUc7URDHCW39KYkG-_NKS5gHlbgW5MzUlBzr1ET9XpRCCdsSdDJg2UT-VKZJUps45D4o0UjZNtZ8d-k5T3SU.QXeeRamn2JZoUoY6CG6lniun7C2fNv-UeEMm0BKBy8U&dib_tag=se&keywords=life+is+a+ride&qid=1761157321&sprefix=life+is+a+ride%2Caps%2C143&sr=8-1

I’m Samantha Perkins and this is Why You Write That?!?!?  This podcast is for anyone who wonders what authors were thinking when they shared that really detailed secret or their most embarrassing moment.  For writers, future writers, readers, and those who love words Join me as I interview authors and writers to uncover the truth behind why they share all the of those cringey details and what it feels like to air it all! So press play and get ready to hear the story behind the words

Transcript

0:38

Okay. Hey Chris. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks so much. So great to, to catch up and see you again. Yeah, we go way back. We met in an online, we've never met in person, but in an online. Writing group that really was the thing that helped me finish my book and I think helped you finish your book if I'm right. Absolutely. Yeah. I remember Anna David, who started the writing group, started in March of 2020, right when COVID hit. So all of us had extra time on our hands at that point. Yeah. So yeah, it was it turned out to be a great opportunity. I think so too. And honestly, there is something to be said about that kind of accountability to help you get to the finish line with big writing projects. No, no question about it. I was writing I'm sure you were too, like an at least an hour every day. Yeah, sometimes more, but at least an hour. And I had that in Pacific time, 10 to 11:00 AM every weekday to do it. And you just crank out a few hundred words. Yeah. And pretty soon you're at, pretty soon you're at 40 or 50,000 words. That's right. That's, and you and you've got a first draft of a book. Yeah. Really cool. Before we go any further, let me introduce you. I'm gonna read Chris's bio here. In the last 40 years, Chris Joseph has started and managed three environmental consulting businesses, launched two fan funded music record companies, and founded a nonprofit charitable. Foundation. He has also dabbled in philanthropy, songwriting, and magazine writing, and he is currently studying for his real estate license. Chris is a certified terrain navigator, cancer coach and radical remission coach, and helps people learn how to thrive even with a cancer diagnosis. He is the author of the Memoir. Life is A Ride, my Unconventional Journey of Cancer Recovery and the co-author of the Epiphanies Project 20 Personal Revelations. Chris is a Los Angeles native who lives in the Pacific Northwest with his fiance Susie and his stepson Milo. Chris is also the proud parent of two older boys, both the whom have launched into the world. I forgot that we worked together on the Epiphanies project, which was your kind of vision that you came up with the idea. Is that right? The Epiphanies project came out of after I wrote, life has Arrived in 2020. I remember as I wrote that so quickly, I, the first draft was written three or four months, and I, after that book came out, I started thinking, oh, I forgot to write about this, and I forgot to write about that. And there were, there was an epiphany I'd had when I was going through my cancer journey that I did not include in the first book. I thought, oh, that's, that would make a great story. I realized it's just one story. And that was the genesis of talking to Beth Robinson, to you and 17 other people. Yeah, like who I, everyone has an epiphany, everyone. Yeah. It really is a question of, do you wanna write about it? Yeah. That was such an incredible time. I know for me, just, it was so exciting being surrounded by so many other authors and. Not just authors, but people with the, these incredible lived stories and experiences. And it was just a really fun thing to be a part of. And I'm still really proud of it. I am too. I will say that because I've never, I'm not being modest, I'm being honest. Don't think I am a great writer. I think I'm a good writer, but I don't think I'm a great writer. And to be surrounded by so many others in that book who are great writers. Yeah, that was a little intimidating, I have to say. Yeah, it really was. Yeah, I agree. Just great quality work, so yeah, definitely. I'll definitely share that in the show notes as another opportunity for people to check it out. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your book and your memoir and what spawned you writing it and more of your story. So in October of 20 16, 9 years ago this month, I was diagnosed with third stage pancreatic cancer. Your listeners may or may not know that 70% of people with pancreatic cancer are dead within one year. 90% are dead within five years. I knew I was being that I had a really serious diagnosis. I thought I was gonna die countless times in those first few months. I did standard of care like most people do western medicine, and that didn't work. And so I quit chemotherapy, fired my oncologist, and embarked on a journey, which I will, it's too long to get into in this interview, but once I quit chemo, a few months after I'd started it, it opened up a world of opportunity about alternative medicine that I knew very little about and. I did that, I also did some more western medicine stuff, some immunotherapy, and the combination of all those things worked. It's nine years since I've been diagnosed. Yeah. I'm doing great. And have been doing great for a long time. The genesis of writing life is a ride back in 2020, is that when I got diagnosed back in 2016 I was very public. About my journey. I was writing about it on social media. I was blogging, I had a WordPress blog. I was posting videos on social media. Even when I wasn't doing well. I was doing all this stuff. And then of course, once I started doing better, I was posting about that so people knew my journey for better, for worse. Then I started getting calls like in 20 18, 20 19 tell me what you did other pancreatic cancer. Patients or their loved ones, other types, people with other types of cancer. And I started thinking, I have a really good story here. But I didn't think about writing a book at that point, but when I started in my head, I started thinking about in early 2020 before COVID, then COVID hit I'm gonna do this. Yeah. I'm just gonna write it. And I had never. You don't, your first book is your first book, right? I don't know if that was on your radar screen. You can tell me that. Yeah. If someone would've told you 15, 20 years ago that you'd be an author, no. Yeah. That's how I, not only would you be an author, but you're gonna write about your journey with drinking, right? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So yes. It was not on my radar to write a book. But I am so glad I did it. To me the, and I didn't know this at the time and I'm willing to bet you didn't know this at the time either. A book brings a memoir, especially brings credibility. It's like a business card that gets your foot in the door. To me, and I'm saying, I'm not saying it's a gift that keeps on giving to others. It's a gift that keeps on giving to me. Yeah. One other thing I'll say about it is originally I wrote the book for my kids. When I got diagnosed, they were 14 and 12. Now they're 23 and 21, but Wow. But I wanted them, I could, I still, even in 2020, even when I was doing well, you just never know how long you're gonna be here. So I wanted it to be a memoir that they could read. The PS on that is they've never read it. They've never read the market? Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. Which I think is great. And I'm totally in support of that. Their feeling is they lived it. They don't need to read the book. Yeah. They don't need to read it. But they will, they will. Maybe they'll read it after I'm long gone. Who knows. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there can't be enough upset about. Leaving a little bit of a legacy behind when it comes to something like that, and I do think, that with adulthood, as they grow into adults, maybe they'll be more interested in reading it or when they have their own kids and families, and they have a different perspective they'll pick it up on their own time. That's right. Or they want's. Totally cool with whatever they do, that's their choice. I remember reading your book. We had I had first of all, you wrote your book pretty quickly. I think when you set your mind to doing it, you were just like, this thing is happening. And honestly, it's funny'cause I'm working with a writer right now and she has that first time writer vibe that I don't have anymore. And there's something like a little bit easier about it when you're a first time writer, you're just getting this story out and you don't know what you don't know. And I think that can be a real benefit.'cause I know for me now. I've been working on my second book and it's hard for me to do it'cause I'm focused on all the mistakes I'm making and I know I should be doing this instead of this and, that's okay. But I, I do think that I remember how quickly your book came out and I was reading it. This is an interesting story that I probably never shared with you, but my dad had just been diagnosed with dementia. And I had gotten your book and I was sitting in a hospital waiting room and I'm reading it as the doctors are telling us all of these things. And I remember thinking like, gosh, Chris's story is so profound and. My mom, I'm seeing her sit there just, crossing, nodding her head and whatever they say is exactly what we're gonna do to help my dad. Without question what the doctor says goes, and I'm reading some of your book, and I'm like, wow. Like the bravery and the courage that it took to. Not agree with your doctor is a really kind of big deal. And it was helpful to have, and I can only imagine if it, opened up something for me who, wasn't even related to cancer, but just as a reminder that we do have, we do own our own stories and we can, question things. It's okay to question things. I think it's an obligation. To question things. And by the way, when I wrote the book in 2020. I purposely made it a memoir, not a how to book. Yeah. And there, and as there is a difference. Yes. Because I felt with memoir, you're telling your story and you have to be true to the story, and you have to be true to the people you're writing about. So you have to write it with honesty. I'm sure I made some mistakes, or, chronologically I forgot it, a few things here or there. Or maybe people had different interpretations of things. But I'm convinced 99% of what I wrote is. Factually accurate, but it was memoir, it wasn't how to.'Cause with how to, people can argue about it. Yes. They can disagree with you. No one can disagree with my story. My story is my story, and I think that's the value of memoir that you get to share and you get to dig deep. That's right. And you get to be, you get to be vulnerable. Yep. Absolutely. And those are the stories. I know your book has helped many people. I want to, hopefully believe my book has helped people and that's, that makes it worth it right there, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's funny that you say that and I wanna talk about that for just a second.'cause I am talking to people and I haven't made this explicitly clear, but everyone that I'm interviewing is someone who wrote a memoir and, yeah, there is a difference and I think that your book helped people, not because you said, here's what you should do, but because people connected to your story. And I think that same for me. Like I wasn't like, here's all the things you should do. I'm just like, Hey, here's someone who might be, I might be like you, and if you're like me, this is what happened. And people connect to the story and they feel maybe you give words to something that they were thinking or sh shine light on something that they too are experiencing and it's the connection. That helps. Yeah. I love that. That's a great way of describing it. Yeah. Yeah. So can you share, set, shed some light and share with us a piece that was really hard for you to write because again, most of the authors that I'm working with, I think they have this idea that authors who share vulnerable things like somehow didn't feel vulnerable when they were writing it. That it was just easy for them to write easier for them. And that's, I don't think that's the case with anyone. No I will tell you because I do a lot of public speaking now and I'm always asked to tell my story, so it's an extension of the writing the book. And even when I'm talking about my kids, when I'm public speaking, talking about my kids, about that period in my life, I still get choked up. Yeah. Still'cause it just takes me back to a time that was very. Painful. And difficult. So yeah, the part I wanna read to you is from the book, it, I, if anyone buys the book or reads the book, I write kinda the way I talk. But very short chapters, like three page chapters. So this is a chapter, but it's five minutes if or less. And the chapters called the Goodbye Letter. And the context of that is that this was a letter I had written to my kids. Back in that I wrote that I was gonna give to my kids back in 20, early 2017, right after I got diagnosed. So I decided to put the letter in the book. So it's called the Goodbye Letter and it's goes like this. Thinking I might not be around much longer. I composed a letter to my boys. Dear Jasper and aj, I write this letter to you in early March, 2017, not knowing what the future will bring. The truth is we rarely know with a hundred percent certainty what the future will bring. It pains me, see, I do this. It pains me deeply to not be able to spend as much time with you both as I have in the past. Dealing with this illness, as has been very challenging. Please know that I hope in the near future we can start enjoying more time together and resume going on our travel adventures and enjoying life. In the meantime, I want you to know some things. First, I love you so much more than I can write, more than I can ever say. I've never experienced unconditional love until I had children. Getting to help raise you and watch you grow into great young people you have become is the greatest gift ever. You boys are such wonderful kids. Keep doing what you are doing. Study and work hard in school. Lots of people are smart, but not everyone works hard and that makes a difference. Listen to people really listen. Remember that when a person is talking, they aren't listening. We learn more from listening to others than we do from hearing ourselves talk. Be fearless with love. Don't be afraid of love. Move toward it. Embrace it. Once you find it, work hard at it. Give remember, not that not everyone is as fortunate as we are. Find ways to give to others, to be of service to others. Embrace life. We never know how long we will have. It's okay to have fears. Everyone has them. What I've learned is to figure out how to walk through the fears. I've seen you both do this already in so many different ways. It's okay to cry. Don't ever let anyone tell you that it's not okay for boys or men to cry. It absolutely is. Communication helps. Talk to people if you're hurt or feel you've been wrong. Don't focus on what they had done. Focus on how you're feeling. Be genuine with apologies. Drink lots of water every day. Stay hydrated. It took me decades to learn this. Eat healthy, eat moderately, eat consciously. Exercise, get outdoors. Hike, bike, ride, swim. Be kind to everyone. Not everyone will be nice to you all the time, but be conscious that if someone is not being nice to you, it says something about them, not about you. You have so many opportunities in front of you. Live them to the fullest. I love you both so much, dad. So the kicker I'll end with this is I actually never sent them that letter. I published it in the book. But I was too afraid to send it to them. Because I, they knew I had a serious diagnosis, but, to me the, as I titled it, the letter was like a goodbye letter. And I didn't want to say goodbye to them. Yeah. So I felt like after I started doing better, a few years later when I wrote the book a few years later, I thought, okay, I can publish this letter now. Just because it gave the reader an idea of what my thought process was at the time. Yeah. That's so good. Thank you for sharing that. And I know that, yeah, when you're writing a memoir and you're putting in there, this is just something so personal to you. This is just you and your family and illness and parenting and love and all of it wrapped into one. And it does take a lot of courage to share that side of yourself and to let people in on that, and I know that was really brave of you. Thank you. I also, some context, I repeatedly and constantly was thinking, I'm not gonna live long enough to see my kids graduate high school. Yeah. I really believe that. And it wasn't just the thought that I had a few times or hundreds of times. It was literally thousands of times. It was a loop in my head going over and over that I had for months. The spoiler alert is one just graduated college in June, and the other one's halfway through college. It's a good reminder that our thoughts are our thoughts. Yeah. They don't necessarily dictate our reality or our future. Yeah. Yeah, that is such a great reminder and also like congratulations to this time that you've had and how has this kind of. Do you have a before cancer After Cancer mindset? Totally. I know it sounds a little weird, but cancer I wish I'd never had it. I wanna be clear about that. But to learn the lessons I've learned in the last nine years and to have the experiences I've experienced, in some ways it was like a gift. Which I know is a weird comment or a weird thing to say, but, my life is better and it's better because, I'm, I was always close to my kids when I'm closer to my kids. My fiance we've been together most of 13 years and we had every couple our ups and downs. But we're closer now than we've ever been. And I attribute it to. I recognize the value of these relationships, and I'm more grateful about being here. And being alive. And we don't, none of us know, I don't care if people are religious or spiritual. None of us know what happens after we die. We just don't know. And so it's helped me live more fully without question. That's amazing and I'm sure that yeah the quality in these last nine years, just the focus that you've had on your relationships and just being present. I'm sure that is a wake up call and I'm, I know that you would've never asked her that, but I'm just happy that you're here and that I got to be a part of knowing you and seeing some of this, come forth. Likewise. It's also given me an opportunity to, it's given me a mission. As a parent, we have a mission. That's always the biggest one. But putting that aside for a second, other than being a parent and I guess being a husband or boyfriend or whatever. Being of service to people and helping them on their health journeys. Again, I didn't see that one coming. If you would've told me 10 years ago, you're gonna become a health coach. No, I don't think so. And so that's really been gratifying. Yeah. It's challenging. I'm betting in your world too, in your world as well, because not everyone does well. When they try to stop drinking, right? Not every, not everyone does well when they're trying to deal with a chronic illness, right? So that part is challenging, but, being able to impart wisdom and share stories and provide hope. Yeah that's a good thing. Yeah. I agree. That's cool. So what are you doing? You're offering coaching, like just health coaching and yeah. I decided in, in Anna David our. Writing coach. She published my book. She used to tell me after the book came out, oh, you're gonna become a coach. And I kept saying, no, you're wrong. And pains me to admit it, but she turned out to be right. Sorry, I've got a cat here that's challenging me. So yes, I'm, I am cancer coaching. I got training, formal training from metabolic Terrain Institute of Health and also from an organization called Radical Remission. Yeah, that's my goal now is to just work with people, either one-on-one, sometimes in groups. And like I said earlier, just provide some wisdom and share hope. That's awesome. Yeah. I'm sure that you're helping a lot of people and yeah, there's that feeling of being able to give back. It is just unmet, it's just a really driving force I know in my life and and I'm sure in yours too, so That's great. It is. I don't know if you have this challenge. I have a somewhat of a guilty conscious because, I don't want to charge. If I could do this for free, I would do it for free. Yeah. But but obviously I need to make some money. I don't mean need to make a lot of money, but Yeah, some to keep the lights on and stuff. And so I'm not entirely comfortable even after doing this for a few years now. Of the thought of charging people. But that's something I'll just get over or I won't. Yeah. I don't how do you deal with that? I have, that's so funny that you asked this because this is an ongoing issue for me and I. One thing I've been thinking of money more as like an energetic exchange and Yeah. Like you i'm like so filled up from some of the work that I get to do that I'm just so excited to have the opportunity and yeah. I'm like, I'll do this for free, but I've been thinking money about money more differently lately in that just like the energetic exchange of I'm so pumped up about doing this. And is the person on the other end also really excited and motivated and inspired and maybe if they were using money as a means to show that, that would be okay. A little weird, but no it totally makes sense. I also think totally. I also think one thing is, especially with your situation, you know these people are probably gonna be paying someone and sometimes it should be yeah. If they're paying someone, how me back up? I never want to say, I never would say that I'm against western medicine. I'm not. I want your listeners to know that I think some of western medicine, what western medicine does is amazing. If you get in a car accident or something, you wanna be taken to an emergency room. Or for orthopedic stuff. I've had, I'm turning six United, I don't wear glasses. I've had cataract surgery in both eyes. So some of Western medicine is incredible. I think chronic illness they're lagging. And so the reason I bring that up is yes, when I think about the conflict of charging or not, I'm thinking, wait a minute, they're going to this doctor to give, who gives them bad advice? I'm gonna give them good advice. Yeah. So they can pay me. That's right. And the other thing is that the people who pay. Allow me to help people who don't have the means to pay. Yeah. Because not everyone can afford this. So that's a challenge too. Yeah. And that's a really great way to, to frame it, I think. And yeah I always say, in fact, I write in my journal every morning and I write, I wanna be a philanthropist, but I need the money coming in so that I can give it away to people. So I just gotta make that I, I'm really good at giving money away. I just. Gotta figure out how to bring it in for myself, so I get that. Yes, I call myself a money broker. I, the money comes in and the money goes out. It just it stays in my hand for a day or two, and that's it. Yeah. Maybe this could be what you write about next, how to, when you get this problem solved, you can write about it. Speaking of writing, what kinds of things have you been working on since your book? What kind of writing have you done? So I started writing a new book. I actually had a title for it. I wrote about half of it, half of a first draft. And the title was going to be called The Kitchen Sink Approach to Cancer. And the reason for that is because I still get calls all the time. Tell me what you did. Tell me what you did. And there's no, I understand why people are doing this, but people are looking for quick fixes. And easy answers for their health issues. And there are the secret is there are no quick fixes. It takes a lot of work, but it, I still get the question. And one woman, just a few years ago now, she called me about her husband and she was understandably very upset about how her husband was doing. And she kept saying to me on the phone, on Zoom. Just tell me what you did. Tell me what you did. And I said to her, I was getting a little frustrated, not with her, but just my inability to answer her. But I finally said to her, I just threw the kitchen sink at my cancer. And then I thought that's a great title for a book. The kitchen Sink Approach, the cancer, that's the origin of the title. And the subtitle was, and Why you shouldn't always Listen to your Doctor. And I, so I wrote a lot. I outlined the whole book, wrote a lot of it. And I wouldn't say I lost interest in it, you've experienced this writing the second book is a whole different challenge than writing the first book. And my interests changed somewhat because I think. We're in an era, sadly, where a lot of people just don't read books. And so I'm trying to overcome that too. Trying to overcome that reality. It's not 20 years ago. Especially for people who write independent books. Right now I'm mostly writing Substack stuff. Okay. So I write essays. I can write three essays a week sometimes, and now I have written since August. Okay. Yeah. I get that feeling. Yeah. It can be really productive. And now for good reasons. I, I'm just traveling and stuff I haven't written, but I'll get another book out. Yeah. And honestly, I think what you described is the life of a writer, I think that when you get on social media, there's all of these people that are like, they make it look like it was just so easy. They decided one day they wanna write and then their book is out and, they just keep writing book after book. And, maybe they do, but it's not looking, it's not, it doesn't look like what it looks like on social media. The back end of that is probably a pretty gnarly experience. And I think, many of the authors that I've interviewed for this podcast, they're like, this book took years and years. And I think that's the reality. You get going on it, you have other work to do. It's not just your one thing. And you write and then you don't know if you like it or not, and then you get away from it. You come back to it. I just do think that's the reality. Yeah. And I think also dealing with our own insecurities and demons. Yeah. Just circle back to an earlier part of this discussion. When I was writing the memoir I didn't really I was feeling inadequate am I a good enough writer and all that? But it's memoir is memoir. But now writing like a how to book, The catch and sink approach to cancer, that was gonna be how too. And I started thinking, oh my God, people are gonna take issue with what I wrote. Or I'm gonna, or I'm gonna get shit from this group or that group. Yeah. And that's a whole different energy. Yeah. That I'm not sure that I'm ready for. Yeah. Writing, as is a very lonely process. Yeah. Which is sometimes really great. You can get lost in it, right? You can just, when I'm in a zone, I'm guessing you get this way too. When I'm in a zone, it's like exciting. Yeah. But then, I'm not talking to people. I'm not petting my dog. I'm not getting outside. Yeah. So it comes with a cost. It's such a unique profession and I'm not saying it's a profession for me, but it's a unique job. It is very unique job. It really is. And yeah, I think you said it. I'm the same, like when I get into the zone, I'm, first of all, sometimes I can wake up and start writing and if I had time and didn't have to go anywhere, I could sit here. For hours in my pajamas. I'd never get up to go to the bathroom. I wouldn't eat, I'll, write through thirst, right through hunger, but then there are times when I have all the time in the world and I sit down to write and nothing comes. And it's just so frustrating. Or I do, I let those, the fear come in. And again, I think that is the what we said it's the curse of writing your second book. You now know. What the outcome could look like. And there's just more at stake, or it feels like there's more at stake. And so yeah. It's just hard. It's also for your listeners and there's, it's one thing to write the book and another thing to publish the book, but then the third leg of that is to market the booker. Yeah. And that's a whole other job. It is, yeah. And a whole other job. I think for most authors, like you said, writing is a really lonely thing. It's very rear, like behind the scenes. But marketing your book is very forward facing and most people don't want to be forward facing, and it's just a challenge and it's hard and it feels icky, it feels I'm sure well, you're, you, it sounds like you don't go on social media all that much. I do. Like in my Instagram feed, I get self-help after self-help, after self-help and some things I watch, some things I don't feel comfortable doing it. I've done it sometimes, but I, yeah, it's not something I'm comfortable with. But I, it's also the challenge of how do you break through? Yeah. If everyone else is, if everyone else is selling something, how do you sell something? Yeah. But you also can't not do it. You have to do it. Yeah. I, you have to, you do. And I remember my line right after my book came out. I would say every time I put something out, I'm like, if I took the time to write this book, you guys, so I'm gonna tell you about it now. I just kept telling myself like, I took the time. I'm not gonna write this book and then not tell people about it. Like I'm a, I'm obligated to this now. And I'm glad I did because again, like. All the people that needed to find it did much like your book. And it's important that you tell people about it.'cause, you were meant to write it. And no question. Yeah, absolutely no question. I will say for people who are thinking about writing a book, put as much effort into the marketing as you put into the writing. That's right. Which is hard. But, call people, get on. Podcasts. Don't be afraid to volunteer. Yeah. Don't be afraid if you know you have a good story. You had a good story. I had a good story. Yeah. People want good stories. That's right. Do they want good stories? And most of those people are looking for content anyway. If a podcast, reaching out, a podcast host is looking for guests to get on the podcast, so you know, you gotta put yourself out there.'cause that kind of stuff is what they're looking for anyway. So again, it might as well be your content that they're, that they put out. As much as we all would love to be interviewed by podcasters who have millions of followers I'll pretty much I don't look at it that way. I look at it that, and because I've probably done about 30 or so over the years now, that. I don't even think about the audience who, how many in terms of how many people are listening. It doesn't matter to me. Yeah. Doesn't matter to me.'cause it helps me like refine what I wanna say to people. The more practice I get I can use being on other podcasts, which I did to get on your podcast. That's right. Yeah. Samantha, I've been on another podcast. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Marketing is effort. It's, and the last thing I would say is. And I actually tried this and it didn't work. I tried it with two different groups and to help me market it didn't help at all. Yeah the best marketer is the writer. That's right. And honestly, I think I've learned from, no matter how you publish your book, if you're self-published or traditional published or hybrid published, it doesn't matter. You're in charge of your marketing. You're, there is no marketing teams behind people. Like there may have once been, back in the day, now it is on the author to do the marketing and. It is a whole different beast to try to overcome, but, so important and worth it. I remember when did you did TEDx? Like three years ago. Four years ago? Yeah. It was 2022, so yeah, three years ago. So I remember when you did that, how, first of all, how impressed I was, but second of all, how oh yeah. Okay. That's a good way to. Market. Yeah. It's a good way to market it. And you can, it's on, I assume it's still on YouTube. It is, yeah. And it lives in Infinity, right? It, yeah, it does. And I think that's one thing, and with Life as a Ride, like that book is a book forever. It's not just for a certain amount of time. Where people come in, they buy your book this one time and then it goes away. And I think that's what's also great about memoir. There's not like a, it's not ex expiring, this is something that you're gonna just talk about and use forever. And, there's always a way that you can bring it back to, the forefront of, Hey, I wrote this book and tell people about it. There's never a time that you're not. Chris Joseph, the author, and I try to keep that in mind for myself and to remind other people of that. Yeah, definitely. I think my book sells a couple copies a week now. That's great. And which doesn't, of course doesn't sound like much, but I. It is, as most books are gonna sell within the first six months or whatever. Yeah. Unless they have a second or third big life. But most of the sales come in the first few months. But yes, especially with memoir or something that people are gonna refer back to. Oh yeah, Samantha Perkins wrote this book. You should read this. Yeah. Chris Rose wrote this book. You should read this. That's how my book sells now. Or if I go public, speak somewhere, or to be on. A couple copies or whatever. Yep. But yeah, that's totally fine too. This has been an awesome conversation and I'm just really thankful that you came on and that you're. First of all, that you're here to talk about it'cause that's the most important thing from your journey. I'm, grateful to know you and have been, really inspired by your story since I first met you. And I'm so glad that you wrote your book and I think it's still something that people can glean a lot of insight from. So thank you for doing that. Thanks. Thanks for having me on. It's been great to reconnect with you and hopefully maybe in two or three years we'll both have new books out and yeah we can do this whole thing again. We can do this again. Yeah. Awesome. Tell us really quickly how people can find you. My website. My, go ahead. Yeah. The website where people can find me is www terrain navigators. But if people Google, me know Chris Joseph and pancreatic cancer, things will pop up. Okay. So there's, they can find me that way. Okay. I'm on social media, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram, not on TikTok, not on Twitter or X or whatever it's called. Yeah. But but yeah, Facebook and Instagram are my two. Social media platforms of choice. Okay, awesome. I'll be sure and link all of that so people can find you and hopefully people will buy the book. Check out your website and just learn more about your journey. So thanks again for being here. Thank you.