Through Their Eyes with Nancy Collander

 Nancy Collander’s lifetime with animals frames the way she sees the world. Dogs are her teachers, providing her a unique outlook on life and amplifying her wry sense of humor. A lifetime of dog adoption and rescue provided the framework for Nancy’s first book, Through Their Eyes; Reflections on joy, loss, and learning.

Twenty-seven years on a small farm in Central Ohio inspired Short Notes from a Small Farm, an as yet unpublished series of short stories about a city girl’s life in the country. Nancy's short story, Foal Watch, placed first in the Westerville, Ohio, “Celebrate the Arts Writing Contest” in 2021.

Born in Cleveland, Ohio, Nancy’s creative writing spark was kindled at Ohio Dominican College where she earned her Bachelor of Arts. Nancy now resides in Michigan.

You can find Nancy's book through her website here. 

I’m Samantha Perkins and this is Why You Write That?!?!?  This podcast is for anyone who wonders what authors were thinking when they shared that really detailed secret or their most embarrassing moment.  For writers, future writers, readers, and those who love words Join me as I interview authors and writers to uncover the truth behind why they share all the of those cringey details and what it feels like to air it all! So press play and get ready to hear the story behind the words

Thank  you so much for listening! Please support the author by buying their books, attending their events, and liking and following them on social media.  If you liked this episode help please share with a friend and leave a review! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Okay. Hey Nancy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Thank you so much for having me. This is going to be great. I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Same. I'm interested to hear more about your book because I know that this is actually, I try to pick a lot of different topics so that the listeners can learn about all kinds of different things. And this is something that I haven't interviewed anyone about. And so I'm really excited. But before we get started, I'm going to read your bio so our listeners can learn more about you. So Nancy's lifetime with animals frames the way that she sees the world. Dogs are her teachers, providing her with a unique outlook on life and amplifying her wry sense of humor. A lifetime of dog adoption and rescue provided the framework for Nancy's first book, Through Their Eyes: Reflection on Joy, Loss, and Learning. Born in Cleveland, Ohio, Nancy's creative writing spark was kindled at Ohio Dominican College, where she earned a Bachelor of Arts. Nancy now resides in Michigan. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your book? I'm so excited for our guests to learn. I know we have a lot of pet lovers out there. So this is a world that is very eager to hear, I would imagine, about your story.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Great. Yeah, that's great. And I love to talk with and to um dog lovers because we're such a universe in our in and of ourselves. But I'm 73. And after having 16 dogs over the course of my life, I always knew they had something to tell me. Their eyes always interested me. And I always felt like if I could just understand them, if I could just somehow know what they were trying to tell me, then I could really connect even deeper with them. I love all animals, and I always knew that from the very day I was born. But I love there's something about dogs. They just have such a deep, a deep connection. And, you know, the book was such a journey for me. Writing it was such a journey. And I don't think I could have written it at any other time in my life. It had to be written when I did it because I had all this, all this lifetime of knowledge with dogs. So it just kind of all came out. But you know, it started out as this just a series of short stories. I wanted to tell people about my dogs and about, you know, the wisdom that they had and things that they had to teach me throughout my life. And, you know, everybody thinks their dogs are special. And you know, you just want to tell everybody about your dogs. Um, but you know, I'm I'm nobody famous. I'm just a you know, I'm just a regular person. And so it was kind of like, why would anybody be interested in my dogs? You know, what what is there about them that I want to share with other people? So I started the book about, oh, I don't know, five years ago maybe, and through many, many, many revisions, um, you know, of course, with my first manuscript, the very first version, I thought was fabulous, you know, and of course, when I reread it, I revised and revised. And after 23 revisions, I thought, you know, I like this, but there's there's something. It needs something. And so I gave it to three beta readers and I asked them to give me their opinions. And one of them gave me feedback that just absolutely changed the course of the whole book. Um, she said, you know, I really like the book and I like the stories, and it's obvious that you have a really special connection with your dogs, but a memoir is not a memoir unless you put yourself in it, and especially what she called the deeply personal stuff. And to me, that was the aha moment. I realized that I had been telling people in the through the stories what my dogs had taught me about myself, but not what they had taught me, or I'm sorry, what they taught what they had taught me about life, but not what they had taught me about myself. And that was when I really started the process of self-examination. And it was such a journey of self-discovery. And uh, you know, I really struggled for a while with, you know, why would I expose my personal feelings? Why would I share my vulnerabilities? But if I wanted the story to be the story that it should be, then I had to do that.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Yeah, I really love so far what you're what you're saying. And that makes me want to tell our listeners where we met, which is um, I wrote an article for Jane Friedman, who shout out to Jane Friedman, big fan of hers. And it was about writing memoir and how if the the title of the article was something like the person's life you'll change the most writing a memoir is yours. And you know, a lot of the work that I do is working with women to write memoirs. And a lot of times when I read something from them, the first, you know, their their first draft, I am always like, it seems like you have something to say here, but you're not really willing to like do the work or go a little bit deeper. And it's only when you do that, and so that the book actually becomes really good. You know, I mean, I think readers can just tell when it's just not, you know, from the heart or it's not deep, especially in memoir. And so I love that you got that feedback and that it helped you change the traject trajectory of the book. Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Well, and if you want people to connect with it, um, you have to share that because other people are obviously feeling what you are, even though you might think you're the only one, you know, you're not. Um, so sharing that creates the connection.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

You know, what I read an article on memoir and there were several questions that you needed to ask yourself. And one of them was, what happened to me? Um, and so I'm gonna share um just a short reading to sort of lay the groundwork for you know what the self-discovery process was all about for me. Growing up, my home was stable and happy, but the high expectations my dad set for his children left me with a deep sense of insecurity. Trying to meet someone else's idea of success always eluded me. And even though I tried hard in school, my grades were average at best. Evidently, I just wasn't trying hard enough. Somehow I graduated from high school, but without much sense of self or direction, and with a what's the point attitude firmly in place. Rejecting college, I drifted through through my twenties, in and out of jobs and marriage, taking what came my way, but not reaching for anything on my own, searching for something, but not knowing what. Through all my turmoil, dogs were my anchor, although I didn't realize it then. And, you know, that my my but what I grew to understand is that parental expectations can really shape your life. Um, you know, I have a my older brother and I have two younger sisters, and my older brother absolutely thrived on that, you know, the high expectation thing. I mean, he was very successful and always knew what he wanted to be. And being the second in line, I was like, what is wrong with me? I don't know these things. And, you know, the more my dad expected of me, the worse I felt. I felt like there was something wrong with me. And my two sisters are the same way, you know. We so there was one of us. And I think that parents don't realize that, that every child, even in the same family, are all different and they all take, they all learn different ways. Um, so that that was my first big discovery.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Yeah, and I I love that. How were you? Um, how did you get to the point, I guess, where you felt like you were able to well, I guess going back, I love that you said that you did 23 revisions because a lot of times, you know, people finish their first draft and they're like, oh, you know, hands, uh that's what I thought. Yeah, you know, I'm done. And really that's where the work just begins. And I, you know, I think that one of my biggest messages to get across is that if a lot of times people think, oh, if if this doesn't feel easy for me, I'm having to revise it so much, I must not be a good writer. And that's just not true. This writing this over and over again, writing is rewriting, you know, writing over and over again is the process. Um and so how did you get to the point where you were able to feel comfortable enough to like reverse the story to make it more about you? And did you have any kind of like imposture syndrome? Or, you know, like you've mentioned before, like, yeah, how did you get past the my dogs aren't special? I'm not special. Who would want to read this? You know, how did you kind of move beyond that?

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Well, I think um, and that kind of leads into my to to my second reading. It's it my second one is I told you what happened. It was like the next one is how did it happen? And that to me is where I really started to discover that, hey, there might be a connection here to other people. So I'll just let's see. Okay, this is um sort of how my mom was a was an early L teacher, so she knew that kids learn differently. Um so from flashcards and mom's patient guidance, we kids learned our math basics. But when I got to geometry and algebra, dad took over the homework help and I froze. I wanted to understand, but I just didn't get it, and his disappointment was palpable. One evening I was so lost and nervous I couldn't pay attention, and my fingers fiddled with a little plastic tape dispenser. Dad grabbed it and threw it across the room in frustration. In that moment, I gave up. I was a failure and would never please him, so I stopped trying. Even my small successes earned me the response, next time you'll do better. I suppose the goal was to make me try harder, but it only confirmed that nothing I ever did was good enough. And I learned to be hard on myself as well, with a do it right or don't do it attitude and an inability to forgive myself when something did go wrong. And the self-forgiveness to me was the big thing. I just carried, I learned to accept mistakes and failures, but I never learned to forgive myself for a long, long time. And I think there are probably many, many people out there who feel the same way. And there isn't anything wrong with you. You just have to examine yourself and dig and see what it is that's really really caused that feeling and then work to get past it.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Was uh writing the book, did that help you with this process? I just wonder.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Because it, you know, my life with dogs and and what they had to tell me through all those years, I learned to understand that all the little successes that I had with each dog and what what it was in particular that they had to tell me, it just gave me such, it started to really build my confidence and make me realize that, hey, I am good at something. Unfortunately, after um I met and married my husband, we I I've really discovered what it was that I wanted to do for a career. Um, I was a corporate librarian most of my life and was, I was really good at it. So that was a real boost for me. But the dogs along the way gave me the confidence, like if like I lost a job in the in the crash of 08. Um, and I thought, oh, how am I ever going to get past this? And then I remembered the rescues that because most of our dogs were rescues. I remembered, and they've the one thing about rescues is they have such determination. Um and they just take what comes and okay, I'll just keep going. So I learned to work around and through things with dog the same determination that the dogs had showed me.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Yeah, that's super cool. Because you're right. They do um they have a resilience and they also have to trust, you know. And it seems like, you know, not only do they have to trust you, but they just have to trust that everything's gonna work out for them, you know. And and so yeah, I imagine there is so much learning from them and in failures as an as a human, you know, that if absolutely yeah, failure is a big part of ownership because you don't know.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

When you get a rescue, you don't know what that dog's been through. So you you know, you you try to read them and look at their body language and see maybe what they've been through just by the way they react to things, but you do fail once in a while. So you make a mistake and you have to kind of earn their trust again.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

But um did you um did you uh how long had you wanted to write the book before you started, I guess? How did you know that you were gonna turn the experience into a book?

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Well, I always liked to write when I was at Ohio Dominican. I took a uh had a great professor and I took every literature or writing course that she took or that she taught. And um I wrote a number of short stories, which I liked. And of course, most of them were about animals. Um, and then I just once I got close to retirement, that's when I really started thinking about writing it. And unfortunately, I had not kept a journal, which I really should have done. I kept what I called my timeline of dogs, which was a spreadsheet of when we got each one, where they came from, how old they were, and when they when they passed away. And so I used that for the framework. But I I have a really good memory. So a lot of the things I remembered, a lot of the things like for for example, like when a particular point or pick particular thing happened with a dog and I had a picture of it. Fortunately, with digital pictures, they're all dated now. So, you know, you can see when it was taken. Um, but other than that, I just I went from memory, you know, just what they what I had learned. And one of the one of the quotes that I had in my book was, as dogs entered and left our lives, I became convinced there was a purpose behind each one. And I started to realize the critical role that they played in my life and you know what they what they gave me and and really how they shaped and transformed me. I mean, some of them had more to give me than others, but a lot of the what they shared with me in some cases was really profound.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Yeah. Can you share one of the one of those things, like a transformation or something that you just felt was I can that one I don't have page marked, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Let's see. Well, one of the things was when one of our rescues died, let's see if I can find it. I went, I thought about yeah, I'm not gonna be able to pull it up here. Um, but he I had scolded him once for being underfoot when I was in a hurry. And I turned around and I had my harsh voice, and you know, out of the way, and blah blah. And I turned around and there was he was a lab, so they're very expressive. And his eyes were like sad and his ears were drooped, and his tail, he was sitting down, and his tail, which is always wagging because labs are always happy, it just had this little tiny wag, like, oh what mom? I'm sorry, mom. And when I looked in his eyes at that instant, it was like suddenly I got it. It wasn't to him to understand me. He didn't know I was in a hurry, you know, he didn't know why I scolded him. You know, it was up to me to try to understand him. And I had learned long ago to learn to look at the world through a dog's eyes, but I had never learned to feel it through his heart. And that that was like a revelation to me because I learned to see myself as he saw me.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

So it was it, yeah, it was very, I mean, I carry that with me every day, what he taught me.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Yeah, that is such a valuable lesson and also something that translates way beyond just you and your dog. But if we as humans did more of that, I think that there would be a lot more peace in the world, you know, if we could start to, you know, just what you said, which was it wasn't up to him to understand you. It was up to you to understand him. And if we spent more time maybe understanding instead of assuming, it would be a much better, we would get along a lot better, I think. So that is such a valuable lesson.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

I agree. And I, you know, I think that if we, I mean, that was just a brief moment during one day in my life. And I think if we try to each day that we have with our dogs, because the time with them is so so short, you know, each day if we can find one little thing that we can remember, one little joyful thing, or one little lesson that they that they give us, that when we lose them, it's it is difficult. But if you can hold on to those little joy and learning moments, it's it just makes the time with them so much more precious.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Yeah. How how do you handle all the grief and loss? I guess part of this.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

My next point. Um, one of the things that the book really revealed to me um was the answer to what I call the why question that all dog owners ask. It's like, why do we do this to ourselves? Um do another another quick reading here. This was after we lost a dog that was very special to both myself and my husband. Why do we continue to bring dogs into our lives and pour all our love and care into them, aware of the agony we'll endure when they pass? They strike such a balance for us, the joy of knowing them versus the pain of losing them. The joy far outweighs the loss. And again, those little joys each day, because they're they always make you laugh. I mean, every single day a dog will make you laugh. So if we can just hold on to those things, because you know, losing losing one is so intense. I mean, it and it depends on how you lose them. Fortunately, we've always had them until the end of their lives when they told us that they were ready to go. Um but that even that, whether it's you know, this one particular that I just read about, he had cancer. So we had like a six-week battle and we knew it was coming. Sometimes it's shorter than that, but it's always very intense and very the time is usually shorter than we we have them for the joyous days. Yeah. So if you can hold on to those little joyous days, they will in the end outweigh the that big loss that comes.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah. And something I'm hearing too, you know, I think I've heard I know a lot of people who've had their one dog that they had for a very long time. And then after that dog was gone, you know, that that was it for them. And so I think it says a lot about who you are to be able to, you know, accept that knowing that kind of grief is gonna come again, over and over and over again. And just, you know, how maybe that really translates, because I always talk about the way that our culture kind of deals with death. You know, it's like we don't, we pretend it's not ever gonna happen. And then when it does, we're kind of like blindsided by it versus how other cultures really start accepting it differently. And so, you know, I think the dogs, like you said, this really does show you more of what life is like, you know, um, to that it's worth loving and having these experiences, knowing that you're gonna lose something, something that many people just really can't face. But I imagine that your level of comfort with grief maybe is stronger than what others are, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Yeah. Giving me such great lead-ins to my whole next point was exactly that. Um, we had a in 2009, the spring of 2009, I lost my dad, two dogs, and my horse all in the space of three months. So we had this horrible black spring. I mean, it was just, you know, it was almost unbearable. And toward the end of the summer, our little county newspaper, the dog shelter, always had pictured a couple dogs, you know, and they got me more than once. Um, but this one in particular was this little old, he was 12 plus years old, and he was his owner had to go into a nursing home. No one in the family would take him. So, of course, we did. And, you know, we knew he had limited time. He had a, you know, he had a bad heart, and he, you know, he had a number of other issues, but he was just so happy. You know, he brought us so much joy in the eight months that we had him. And so this is this is right after he he passed away with my last my dog of the of the two dogs that I lost, he died in July, and we got this little guy in August or September, and then the following spring, this is where this begins. Kevin came home and we dug yet another grave out near the corn crib next to Sammy, Bear, and Red. Shaman and Roscoe stood with us as we lit the candle, and we wondered aloud how Shadow's little soul could have made such an impact. He was only with us eight months, but the tears were hard and the loss huge. The life of the party every day. He'd brought our farms so much joy after a time of terrible sadness and loss. Plucked from a lonely end of the shelter, he taught us happiness in the face of overwhelming grief. Fate brought us together at exactly the right time. We had a friend years ago who could never bring herself to get another dog after her old one died. She couldn't bear the heartbreak again, couldn't imagine trying to replace her beloved companion. It hurt us to think that someone with so much love for dogs couldn't open her heart and share it again. For us, not having another dog would be unbearable. Seven times we'd been through the pain and knew those lost could never be replaced. But the new ones have so much magic, revealing themselves slowly, tricking our hearts into loving them, even though we know that they too will become irreplaceable. Because they are each their own, they'll leave their special mark on our hearts, as treasured as all those gone before. And that's what keeps us coming back from. More. Discovering each of them is so much fun. We don't ever want it to end. And it's interesting because when I read when I wrote that very last sentence, I was like, yeah, that's why we do it. And I hadn't really even understood fully why we did it until I wrote those words. So that's why I said this book was such a learning experience for me and such a journey of self-discovery.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Yes, I love, I love hearing that. Thank you for sharing that. I want to switch gears just a little bit and talk about kind of your what's how it's been since you've launched your book. So, you know, what were some of the things that you've you know done as an author, or how are you, you know, feeling now that you're an author? Any questions that you've gotten from people or what's the response been like?

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Sure. Well, the first thing was when I am I published it through Amazon KDP. And when I ordered my my author proof copy, the day it came and I held it in my hand, it was like, I did this. You know, it's really, really a book. Um, and it had the not for resale across the front, but it was still my book, you know, it was it was something that I had, it was really a success for me and achievement. And then I was like, oh, how am I going to promote this? You know, because I didn't, you know, I really didn't have when I did, when I went through the publishing process, I didn't have a plan in place. And I didn't know that you could set your, you know, your your publication date and your release date so that you could market pre-release. I didn't know that, you know, I'd never done it before. So I kind of I played catch up pretty much the whole time. I mean, I obviously family and friends, you know, and I had a good response in the beginning, and then it really started to taper off on Amazon because all my friends and family had already bought it. So I'm gonna get strangers to buy it. But I started, and and this is my really my favorite thing, I started doing author talks. Um, I'd contacted local indie bookstores, um, and I also published through Draft to Digital, because obviously indie stores won't buy from Amazon, um, but they'll buy through the distributors for Draft to Digital. So I started approaching indie bookstores and I got really good response. Um, and I also uh promoted it through library author talks. So it's, you know, and that that's something that I really the author talks are something I really like to do because I love to sit face to face with my readers and tell them about the book. And, you know, they're almost always their dog lovers because they've read the little announcement about the event. And they I always like to hear their stories. So I share about my book and you know, tell about my dogs, and then I like to hear from them as well. The question that I they always ask me is the why question, you know, and and the how question. You know, how did how do you face this? And what do I tell friends of mine who say I'll never have another dog? Um, you know, and really there are multiple instances in the book that they could refer to. But I think the last one that I just shared with you was the big one. Um answers to my question.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

I think that's so that's great that you do the author talks because obviously it's for you know, it's for you to sell books, but it's also like such a great way to like meet new people and connect. I mean, the whole reason that you rewrite it, I think sometimes is to find that one person who's like, yes, I totally get this, me too. And when you actually have that experience, it's so so good. Oh, it's so good.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Yeah. And the other thing about doing author events, um, especially if there are, if it's a big event, like I just recently did when I'm in Western Michigan, live near Grand Haven, and they did they did uh recently a uh Third Coast author and book festival, and there were over 200 authors spread over a number of venues around the town. And authors are just such great people. They're so much fun. You know, they want to talk about their book, they want to hear about your book, and then we start to network and they say, Oh, well, here, did you know about this event coming up? Um, and I'll share, you know, different different events that I've been to, different locations. You know, you really that's how you you build the network is you know, through word of mouth and face-to-face encounters with other writers. And even if it's not your genre, I mean it's yeah, it's a great connect.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

I think authors really know like what's how much support really matters, you know. I think that you know, the general public has this idea that like, oh, you you've written a book and you're just selling thousands of books and the money's raking in, you know. And even for the most successful authors, that's generally not the case, you know. Um, they still need a lot of support from and and it does come from that, that those kinds of networking and face-to-face contact. A lot of times when I reach people, they say, I just don't have a platform, so I'm not gonna do that, you know, I'm not gonna pursue this because I don't have a platform. And I just feel so, you know, frustrated when I hear that because I'm like, you do, there's always a platform. You know, your platform can be your two friends. And something that I actually read recently on one of Jane Friedman's newsletters that I've been sharing a lot with people is I can't remember exactly where the data came from, but basically somebody ran the numbers of how people learn about books. And the number one way still, even with all of this technology and all of this um internet is word of mouth. So, like, you know, if you tell me about a book and you say it's good and you're my friend, I'm gonna buy the book, you know? And people just really underestimate using those tools as that is their network, that is their platform, is the you know, the people in their community, the people at the places that you already go, you know. I'm a huge fan of my local library. I absolutely love it. And I love doing talks there. And I show up for free and do things all the time because there is such a great, it's such a great feeling when you can connect with other people and meet other, you know, the people showing up to those library events are interested in your topic and they want to talk to you about it. So it's such a book. They do and they love books. Yes. I mean, it's the perfect person. So I, you know, I really encourage people to like get out there and do those kinds of things. So I love it that that's that's what you, you know, the path that you went toward.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Yeah. Yeah. Why don't I go back to something you said a minute ago? You said, you know, you talked about your platform and it could be just a couple people. It could be just yourself. You know, you do this. Uh I I I tell people who are thinking about writing a book, I say everybody wants to sell a million copies, but I don't do it for that reason. Um because 99 times out of a hundred, it's probably not going to happen. You know, you'll have a you'll sell some and it'll be great, and you know, you'll feel successful and you'll make a little bit of money. But for me, the the uh I didn't really obviously it helped me with my life's issues, my failure issues and everything like that. But I one of the things that I started to feel you get to a certain age, and I I keep thinking, you know, we have two dogs now, uh and they're both rescues. Who's when I'm gone? Who's gonna rescue all the ones I could have? And when I I had my review with my editor, I had the book edited, and she we did a Zoom call, and she's uh she's we got on the call and she said, Before we start, I want to show you something. And she held up two kittens in front of the camera, and she said, My old cat died last year, and I couldn't even think about getting another cat until I read your book. And man, I'll tell you the tears, and I said, Oh, Kristen, that means so much to me. And that's when it hit me, if I can just save, you know, the book was already successful, even if I never sold a copy, I saved two cats from the shelter. You know, so if I can do if I can reach people that way, you know, and and they spread the word too about rescue and adoption, it's a success.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Yes, 1000%. I completely agree. And I think that people really underestimate that that part of it, because for me, that's been the most rewarding thing. And I, when I wrote my first book, I said the same thing. If one person reads this and their mindset changes just slightly based on this new perspective, I have won the lottery. And you know, I still feel like that today. And when people like I'll just recently my husband said, Oh, I ran into so and so. And he said he read your book and it really helped change his life. And I just started bawling because I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, like, you know, who cares about the $10, you know, that I made from, you know, the sale or whatever. It's more important that that you're giving back.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

And absolutely. Absolutely. It makes everything, it makes it all worthwhile. And you know, you you know then that you've made that connection through the book. You've connected to somebody else's life and heart.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Yeah. And I think for me, and I wonder if this is true for you too, you you do realize, like you said, I'm I was never alone. I'm not the only person who felt this way. You know, there's this whole world of people out there who also felt that way. And, you know, I think that's why I tell people it's worth putting out, you know, being vulnerable because you do find that you have this whole, you know, connection out there.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah. And once you do that, you get you get empathy. You share the empathy and you get it back.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

You know, it's just that deep connection that you make with people.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

That's great.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Yeah. Well, I'm just so happy I got to meet you. And I'm really um happy for you. Congratulations. And thank you so much for, you know, writing your story and putting it out there for people to read and for having all the courage to to you know go deep and to go to these places that I think a lot of people fear, you know. And so Oh right.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Yeah.

unknown 31:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

And um, I'm really glad that that we were able to connect with via James. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

I too. Yeah, definitely. I'm, you know, I I I really like that's the part of writing that I like the most, is the is the connection. And I didn't realize that when I started writing.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Yeah. So I completely agree.

unknown 31:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Okay. Well, I'm gonna tell our listeners all about you, and I'm gonna link your book. And everyone who's listening to this, if you are a dog lover or even if you're not a dog lover, I highly recommend getting it because there's many lessons that you can learn that aren't directly related to having an animal in your life, but you'll enjoy it. It's a really great read. And, you know, thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Yeah, just wait one second. I'm gonna end the recording, but I want you to stay on for just a second.