S2 EP8. How To Heal Family Relationships With Christ

Conflict hits different when you give your heart to Jesus.

In this season finale, we talk about how our approach to relationships — especially with family — has shifted as we’ve grown in our faith. We unpack how God has been transforming our hearts and restoring family bonds, the real battle behind conflict, and how forgiveness becomes a full time job when you walk with Christ.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Being in a relationship with anyone is basically just signing up to forgive over and over and over and over and over again. Would you go to the cross for someone you hate? He didn't go to the cross for a good person. He went to the cross for a sinner. Would you do that? We do not fight against flesh and blood, aka we don't fight against each other. It's a spiritual fight that we have to take on.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

This is where our spiritual toolkit comes in to be like, God transformed my heart. I recognize the spirit of pride right now, and I rebuke it and I bind it in Jesus' name. The enemy is gonna do everything in his power to try to divide a family. The ways in which my relationships with my parents have transformed feels like an actual miracle. That's what's so powerful about the family system to begin with, because that's where we actually get to learn what it's like to love unconditionally. How do we move through this knowing that this is what love is, and yet we fall short of it every time?

SPEAKER_04 0:39

When you are choosing on forgiveness, you are coming out of agreement with the authority of the cross. That's not a position you want to be in.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Do you believe that real healing is possible in relationships without Jesus? Hello and welcome back to the altar. Guys, before we get into the episode today, we have to ask you a very special favor. Would you please hit the subscribe button, especially if you've been around for a while? Hitting subscribe is truly it's like making a donation to the podcast. It helps us to be able to continue to do this, and we want to continue to do this for as long as God allows us to. So please hit subscribe, share this episode with a friend, and we are so, so happy you're here. So let's get into it. Okay, I have a question for you guys. Yeah. What has God been teaching you lately when it comes to the arena of relationships?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Okay. No, I actually have an answer for this.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

This could be anything, like romantic, familial, friendship, anything. What is God teaching you right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:41

To not react. I think that's a really big one for me at this moment is um slowing down my response and actually giving myself time to digest what somebody's saying to me. Like, I think we think we need to respond to something right away in the moment. Yeah. But that can lead to like so much more conflict, and it doesn't actually give us time to prosper, prosper, to or prosper. Somebody make a note of every time that I say some whack stuff on this podcast. Yeah. Anyways, um, it doesn't give us time to process what we're actually feeling, and we could be haste, and I mean the Bible talks about the Bible talks so many times about not being haste. Hasty, hasty. Is haste not haste to not move with haste.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Not move with haste. Like you can be hasty if you're moving with haste.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yeah, exactly. To not be hasty, to not rush, and um like being slow to anger, being slow to anger. Yeah, yeah. And actually, I was literally reading about that today in regards to pride. Um in Ecclesiastes, it talks about like not being super quick to to move because um anger actually is what it says. I'm gonna read it. It's actually really great. It said, um, this is in Ecclesiastes 7 8. It says, the end of a matter is better than its beginning, and patience is better than pride. Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the lap of fools. And yeah, this was just really showing me that like number one, be patient because pride creeps creeps up when we move quickly, and also when we move quickly, it allows for anger come in to come into our heart, and anger does linger, it does stay. So be very careful of what we allow in to come out of us and to prosper and to grow. And I think that's something that it's been that I've been learning is it's okay to take time to process what I'm thinking before responding to it, and that could be even a few days. It doesn't have to be right away. Yeah. What about you guys? Learning in relationships at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

I'm always learning in relationships. Yeah. Um something that I've been praying over recently that I'm asking the Lord to really build up in me this year is my ability to listen. Um, and to be quick to listen and slow to respond. Because I think I've for most of my life I tend to operate in the opposite. I'm like quick to respond, slow to listen.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

And I just feel like there's so many moments that I'm missing out on in relationship. Moments of real intimacy because I'm more concerned with saying what I want to say rather than hearing and seeing the other person. And I notice this tends to come up the most, like where I see this reflection the most is with my parents, is where my patience is really thin and where my need to correct is a lot more heightened. And so I'm much more snappy, I'm much more um aggressive, confrontational, or I shut down and withdraw altogether. And I've just been asking the Lord to soften that part of my heart and to really just teach me to listen more, to listen to understand the other person. And maybe I won't even like what I hear, but I just want if I want to know that person, like, can I just hear what they have to say? Can I get more curious about how they're experiencing the world and how they're experiencing this moment, even in conflict? Like, I think that would change so much if I could come into a part posture in a position where I'm like, how are you actually experiencing this? So it goes hand in hand with kind of how he's been walking me or how he's been having me walk in my relationship with him. I'm learning to listen more. I'm really understanding what it means to hear him, to listen to him. And as he's attuning my ear in that relationship, I feel like it's actually having me move much more slowly in my personal relationships and in moments of feeling triggered and moments of conflict. Um, because I'm so aware when it happens. I've always been so aware when I handle a situation poorly, when I get snappy, when I've like, you know, responded from a reactive, triggered place. And then I'm always repenting afterwards. Like I'm always bringing it to him immediately after. I'm like, Lord, why does this keep happening? Like I hate that this is still happening. And that's kind of where I'm at in my walk now. I hate when it happens. I actually hate it. I hate when I respond from a place of anger. I hate when I respond from a trigger. Um, and I know that it will continue to happen. But I've noticed that just the more that I've been asking him to make me the kind of person who is quick to listen, there actually has been a softening in my heart. In and and and a grace, I feel like on my relationships right now to be able to not be as reactive and as um judgmental or corrective as I tend to be.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

That feels like very similar to what I was kind of saying in more detail. But yeah, yeah. Resonate with that.

SPEAKER_04 7:14

Yeah, it's interesting though, because it's like I don't feel like it's those relationships specifically. Those relationships with my parents are where I'm the most reactive. Outside of those relationships, I have so much grace and patience. Like I don't tend to get as reactive when I'm in moments of conflict or just you know, navigating disagreement. I actually don't. I feel like I'm very responsible for my own emotions and my own nervous system in those moments where like I can create space and I can breathe through discomfort. I've I've practiced that in many ways. Um, it's those particular relationships. And I feel like it's because those are the relationships where I'm trying to correct and change them. And when I'm in a relationship where I'm trying to correct and change the other person, I have stepped out of the posture of loving them and understanding them and getting curious about them.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

What's the balance though between loving somebody and accepting them as they are, and then out of love, wanting them to become better because that's the way that God loves us. You know, it it the scripture tells us that the Lord disciplines those that he loves, and not that we're necessarily here to like discipline our parents, but naturally because you love them, you want to help them be the best that they can. And sometimes it means like pushing them out of their comfort zone to be the best that they can, to make sure they're taking care of themselves well, to make sure that they are also like picking up their cross or denying their flesh. You know, it's like I also am treating them like a brother or sister in Christ, like, hey, I I see that you're living out of alignment with God's will in this way. Like, I don't want that for you. Yeah. So it's like that's something that I really struggle with, I think, is navigating that fine line between like I I I love you completely, accept you as you are, and I just like I want to have such a peaceful relationship with you. And yet I love you so much to the point that like I don't want you to stay at peace with what you're currently experiencing because I know that God has better for you.

SPEAKER_04 9:14

Yeah. So yeah, I still think we need to check our heart postures in those moments of where are you trying to change this person? Because you can't change them. The Holy Spirit does. So if I'm trying to control their transformation, then I am not doing my job well of loving them. And I think that I have to constantly check that because I will step into the savior role. I don't actually allow the savior to work in their lives. And I also don't fully know. This is the thing. I have noticed, I'm gonna speak my from my own personal experience, I tend to correct and judge more than asking questions. I don't actually know what the relationship with the savior is right now. And I think it was Victoria Washington who said this on one of our Bible studies. She's like, you are holding people to godly standards who are not actually walking with God. Yeah. And I think that's where more my discernment is coming from of like, is this somebody who's actually picked up their cross? Is this somebody who's actually fully received the truth of who Jesus Christ is into their heart and therefore gave their life to him and is now following him and being discipled by him? If that is the case, then I tend to be, I think, a little bit more, let's say, forward and direct with maybe offering feedback or saying things that I'm noticing and picking up on as a way to hold them accountable to their walk and their faith. But if this is not somebody who is fully in the Lord yet, I can't hold them to those heavenly standards just yet. Um and I feel like it just puts down, again, the part of me that is trying to correct and change them, that's not my job. That will never be my job. It's the Holy Spirit that transforms.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:55

Um and I also know, like realistically, I'm still, I personally know for myself, I'm not showing up from a place where I can confidently say that my heart is open enough in those relationships for the Holy Spirit to move.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

I think what you're explaining goes really well with like what we wanted to talk about today, which is we might like we cannot hold anybody to a standard. We cannot control anybody. We cannot, we we cannot do that. And it's not our job to, it's not our place to. Um, but I think that's where my walk with God, like that that's what's shifted my heart in relationships and in conflict, is it's when we turn that that's where I've been turning to God and saying, God, help me with this. Like, I don't know how to move with this. And sometimes it's praying over my own heart, saying, like, God, if I'm wrong, like if I'm not seeing this clearly, then change my view on it. Yeah, like call me out, convict me of where I'm stepping out of line here. Totally. And Lord help them. Like, I pray for this person, I transform them their heart, let them seek your face, like remove the the soften their heart. Like it's like I think that is the biggest tool we have as Christians, is going to God about it all. And it goes perfectly with Ephesians 6, 12, which is really where I'm getting this from. It is, for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against rulers, authorities, cosmic powers over the present darkness and spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Because a lot of the time, what we're speaking on, like what you're speaking about, though, that's actually like the the Bible talks so much about the spirit of pride, division, fear, anxiety, like all of these things, there's there's over like 20 something spirits of whatever that God is talking about in the Bible. And that is just another thing that it's not of God. These, these, this pride, this jealousy, this comparison, whatever it is, that is not of God. And so that's this is where our spiritual toolkit comes in to be like, God transform my heart. I recognize the spirit of pride right now.

SPEAKER_03 13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

And I rebuke it and I bind it in Jesus' name. Take this away from me. Like, and if you see it in somebody else, you might not be able to get through to them, especially when the spirit of pride is up. Like, you're not gonna be able to get through to them. But what you can do is you can pray for them.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

And that is the most spiritual, like that is that is like everything that we have.

unknown 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

So what you're saying, because you went through a lot of points really quick, just this. So what you're saying is what you're saying is that when you are in conflict with somebody, it's better to pray for them than it is to try to make them change of your own will. That is what I mean because what is oftentimes what might be operating through them, and maybe even operating through you too, yeah, are these spirits, like the spirit of fear, the spirit of pride, the spirit of jealousy, their spirit, I think we have more here, the spirit of envy and selfish ambition, the spirit of division, the spirit of offense, right? So these spirits are actually what's operating in them, and that's what the scripture you pointed out is telling us that we do not fight against flesh and blood, aka we don't fight against each other, we don't fight against earthly things, we don't fight against people. Yeah, we fight against rulers, authorities, and cosmic powers over this present darkness and spiritual forces of evil in heavenly places, so it's a spiritual um fight that we have to take on rather than one here in person in the earthly realm. Yeah, that's what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

And God is really teaching me this right now. I think actually I've actually found this harder to move through sometimes when I'm in just relationship day to day, but I actually find with my parents that is where this scripture has been really speaking to me, and I actually feel like it's been the most transformative in my life is really praying for my parents. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

Yeah. Yeah. I ask myself a lot, like, how can I be a carrier of Christ's love in every room and every relationship that I'm in? And I do find it I probably the most difficult with my parents as well. Totally. Why is that? Why do we struggle so much when it comes to literally the people who brought us into this world?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

There's I know there's some psychologist somewhere that could give us the answer for that. Because it is um it's very common.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Like it's so common. It's where we learned love.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

You know what you know what I think is interesting? And this is my own personal opinion and sort of like hypothesis of this based on how I've experienced it. But I think, especially coming from the world that we come from, that we think, or maybe I think, my own experience, that in order to become free of the things that keep me in bondage, I need to correct them in the people that I got them from. The patterns that like the patterns that trigger me the most in my parents are the ones that I know I'm capable of. And so I feel like the only way to be free of this, for this to really be resolved, is I have to go backwards to fix it in them first. And I think that's what's shifted so much in my walk with Christ is spiritual bondage is broken not by going backwards, but by going towards him and forward. Like it's like actually through me and through generations to come, essentially. And I think sometimes we get so preoccupied and focused on the past. I need to correct the past in order to experience the future when it's like Jesus did that already when he went to the cross. Like he already died for your past, he died for your sins, he died for your family's sins, he died for all sins and iniquity. And now he calls you to walk in that freedom and in that victory. And so I feel like I have to constantly check myself like, where am I trying to change my parents? Because I'm worried that if I don't, I will not be able to walk in freedom. And it's not easy. You know, that's one expression of it. That's it's not easy. Um but it's true, like a lot of the patterns that we carry, like the ones that hit us in the deepest places, they are generational. And so much of our identity is wrapped up in our parents.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Yeah. Like when you find yourself acting out in these ways that you've been talking about with your parents, when is the moment that like convicts you? And kind of what how do you respond with it? Like, do you do you feel it in the moment or is it something you reflect on later?

SPEAKER_04 18:14

Sometimes there is a supernatural grace in the moment where the Lord reminds me, take a breath here. I've experienced it actually. There have been few moments in my life, like a few moments that I can count where I remember in the moment, it almost felt like this moment of sobriety. Like sober, I'm like sobering up and like, wait a minute, hold on. This is not the fight that you need to be fighting. And in those moments, I will take a breath and I honestly might ask for a redo. We're like, can we can we do that again? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Can we start over?

SPEAKER_04 18:41

Can we start over? Um, because I find I find that it breaks the tension, but I have to put a lot of pride down in order to do that. Like it's hardest for me in the moment. I find that when the when it's all when the trigger's already started, like I'm like, I man, as much as I want to be able to lay my pride down, I can't sometimes. But I will feel it immediately afterwards. And as soon as I feel it afterwards, I come into a posture of repentance immediately. And I I'm sometimes like repentance is hard, guys, especially when you keep repenting for the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Like I'm sick of myself sometimes. That's how it feels. And that's what I bring to the Lord. I'm like, I hate that this is in my heart. Like, burn it. Literally burn it to the ground. I'm done with it. I'm so tired of it. And I don't know if it's ever gonna fully go away. I don't know. I just know that this is my work. This is what it takes. This is what it means to pick up my cross right now. Like, I have to keep repenting as often as it happens. And I have noticed a softening just through that process. Like there has been moments of softening, there has been moments of grace. Um, because I think he sees how much my heart wants to look like his. Like how much I want to look like him, but I can't right now. Like it's I'm just so broken, Lord.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

I'm so broken. I think that's actually what I've been realizing so much in regards to our relationships as well, is that like we you're asking God, like, God, I want my I want my heart to look like yours. So he's gonna give you opportunities to make to make your heart look like to walk that out. And that I'm experiencing so much at the moment. It just feels like I'm being put in situations where I'm like, it is so challenging, and I'll react. And then I realize I reacted. Yeah, I didn't respond.

SPEAKER_04 20:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Take a moment, step back, and I'm learning what he's teaching me about his heart. Yeah. And it is literally that like you show up with love even when you're not when when you don't want to.

SPEAKER_04 20:50

And that's what's so powerful about the family system to begin with, because that's where we actually get to learn what it's like to love unconditionally. You will start to experience and come closer to God's love when you're put in a position where you're asked to love someone that is hard to love. In your family, you can't like you can't just wash your hands and walk away from. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

You just can't.

SPEAKER_04 21:10

The amount of times when I was younger, I used to just be like, but you know, but they're hurting me. No, guys, I've even experienced this in our relationships. Like, there are moments where the Lord has truly tested me because I I know so clearly, He's like, I can't let you off the hook with this. And I'm grateful for those moments, actually. Those have been some of my greatest prayers of gratitude, where I'm like, Lord, thank you for this one that you wouldn't let me off the hook. And so that's where we actually get to experience his love, like what his real love is loving the people that are the hardest to love, who are the closest to your heart. And I feel like we don't even fully understand that just yet. Like, I feel like when we have children, we'll really start to get it. Because that's how God loves us. He's like, What, you think that you're easy to love? You'll be out here doing all this crazy stuff. I didn't tell you to do that. Be out here disobeying. Like that's actually how he loves us. Yeah. He's like, you know, you're not the easiest person to love, Elena.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

Not at all. Yeah. It's like it's, you know, family are the people that we have to continue to choose. And listen, the world is actually going to tell you otherwise. Totally. The world is going to tell you you don't need to choose your family. Totally. That you can just um leave your family behind and cut off all connections with them if uh your relationship with them is not great. And of course, if there's abuse or like serious trauma, this is a this is a different scenario. But for the most part, like I don't want to preach your message of just because there's a lot of conflict, totally the people in your family are difficult to be in a relationship with, that you should just walk away. Amen. And stop trying to improve your relationship with them. Because it's true, this is where we, I think where we get to practice the ability to choose people even when they don't do what we want them to do. Because that's what God has done since the beginning of time is continued to choose us. Totally. Not because, again, like Ellen was saying, we're the easiest to love, but because we're his.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Totally. Totally. Yeah, that's what I mentioned there. There are limitations. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

That's definitely why I mentioned that because I know not everyone's situation is the same. I just think in general, what I've seen culture do is just write off any any sort of difficulty or like repeated conflict. Like there's a difference between abuse and conflict.

SPEAKER_04 24:01

Totally. There's a very big difference between. And I do think we've gotten into a habit of naming everything as trauma. Yes. I agree. Without actually understanding what trauma really is. Yeah. So, and I was in that place, guys. Not necessarily in that place of like, you know, calling my childhood traumatic or anything like that. But there was like a moment in my life where I just thought like I would be better off if I had more distance and separation from my family. And for what? Like, I come from a beautiful family. Yeah, we have our flaws. There's a lot of dysfunction in our house for sure. But I, for the most part, have been blessed by the family that I brought in, I've been brought into. And somehow I was buying into the belief that I needed to separate myself from them. I thought that that is a direct agenda from the enemy. Like that is a straight lie from the enemy. That's the spirit of division at play in households right now. Because that's the God's strongest unit. Like that's his, that's like his greatest institution, is the family.

unknown 24:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

It's the family unit, right? If that's where we get to learn to walk more like him, then of course the enemy's gonna do everything in his power to try to divide the family.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

That is such a good point. And I'm just recognizing that now. Like I have very much had that play in my life, that's been my story for the longest time. Is I can't be myself if I'm not as far from my family as I can be. And it's actually been being home recently and like really using this tool that I've been saying, like prayer. Um, that I've seen such transformations in my relationships with my family.

SPEAKER_04 25:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

And see, I even see like joy and laughter being brought back in. Yeah. In ways that like I was like, like it's like a miracle to me.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Literally.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

The ways in which my relationships with my parents have transformed feels like an actual miracle. Totally. And it just and it came through prayer. Like I wasn't doing nothing. Like I had been praying and praying and praying. And you, it also just shows you how much God wants family together. Yeah. Like totally. He wants to restore the family in it.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

No, it's Jesus. Like we all gave our lives to Jesus, and then we started taking our faith seriously. We started getting into our word, truly understanding his character, understanding the way he loves, understanding how unworthy and undeserving we are of his love, and yet he still chooses us anyway. That started to change our hearts. And we started to approach our parents differently. We also started to bring them to church with us. We started to uh read the word and to them and show them like these different parts of scripture. They've started reading the word as well. And they are getting completely like our bloodline, our family is being completely transformed by Jesus right now. I'm seeing him more and more in my parents on a day-to-day basis. And like it's small, subtle changes. Like the way they're the tone of their voice is different when they address me. And I, or just like the way that they might handle like conflict is uh is slightly different. And you know, nobody changes overnight. We are so imperfect, we still like have our moments as you know. I hope we've conveyed that really well. But but it's just amazing to see how like you truly have no idea like how Jesus is gonna change not just you, but all the relationships around you, and specifically the relationships within your family when you give your life to him, because the you will start to influence them, yeah, because you have him in you and with you. Yeah. And I actually like would love to hear from you guys like, do you believe that real healing is possible in relationships without Jesus?

SPEAKER_04 27:44

I think anytime there's any real healing at play, it's Jesus, even if you're not aware of it. Yeah. My first encounter with Jesus, what led what followed after that was reconciliation in my relationship with my parents. And I knew it was the Lord because it was a love that I had never experienced before. But I didn't know at the time that God was Jesus. I still hadn't read the gospel yet. But the love that penetrated my heart, that transformed and healed my heart in that moment was something extraordinarily different than the healing work that I was doing before that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:16

And the first ministry, the first place that he touched in my life was my family, was my relationships with my family. And so I think that when there's true healing at play, it is Jesus, whether or not you're aware of it. And I do not believe that real healing is sustainable without him. I have not experienced it.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

I feel like I'm just like recognizing this when I'm reflecting back on like the work I did when I was in new age and like how I would address familial hurt and pain. I felt like a lot of it was pointing the finger at the parents. Like you do this, you're bad at this, like they treated you like this, so that's why you feel like this. Even though it was still saying, like, this is why you feel like this, it was still pointing the finger at them. And when I'm reflecting now on how I address my parents, I'm really asking God to transform my heart. Like, God, help me communicate in a way that softens them. Because that's the we have so much power over our tongue, and I'm really realizing that. And I remember the first situation, the first experience I had with one of my parents was when there was a lot of tension going on in the house, and I was feeling I was angry, and I was frustrated, and I wasn't feeling seen. And I knew that I did not have the words to speak on the situation, and so when the time came to have the conversation, I really just said, Jesus, like take Holy Spirit, take my voice, like be on my tongue, and that conversation went so much better than I could have ever imagined, and real healing and transformation took place from that, and it was because I I asked God to first soften my heart so that I can deliver the message in a way that was actually responsive.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

And since then, I've seen just that, but better and better and better and better every time that I've had conflict.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

Yeah. Yeah. I I feel like it's not possible. And my reason is really simple. I think that being in relationship requires you to have the skill of forgiveness. Like being in a relationship with anyone is basically just signing up to forgive over and over and over and over and over again because they are going to mess up, they're going to hurt you. Like it's we're perfect broken humans trying to be in a relationship with each other. It's inevitable. And I don't know if I would have the capacity to forgive if I didn't know Jesus. Because when I consider the fact that God forgave me before I was even born for every and any mistake that I would ever make, I'm just like, dang, I really got no excuses for not forgiving someone else. Like, what can I what can I say? I have no defense. Like, he has granted me so much forgiveness, more than I ever deserved. And so, how can I ever point to somebody else and say, well, they don't deserve my forgiveness? I would be a hypocrite. And I only can be like that because I know Jesus. That's the only reason, or else I would not be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

And I wouldn't say it's not hard to forgive. Like, it's really hard to forgive. I think we've all experienced how hard forgiveness is. It's actually the hardest thing to do in the world.

SPEAKER_04 31:52

Okay. Like it's not that it's not, it's maybe sometimes it's hard. It's literally the hardest thing you will ever do in your entire life is forgive. That's it. We don't know how to do that actually. And we don't do it well. And we don't do it in completion in the way that Jesus did when he forgave us. Yeah. And and I think what's shifted in my heart too is that he didn't just forgive me. That forgiveness was not just offered to me, it's offered to the person that I'm currently accusing as well. Whether or not they even know him yet. So he forgave all sins, not just mine. All sins. And I don't believe that we could ever fully measure up to that. It's not possible.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:43

Would you go to the cross for someone you hate? He went to the cross while we were all still sinners. He didn't go to the cross for a good person. He went to the cross for a sinner. Would you do that? I can't even go to the cross for people I love.

unknown 32:58

Straight up.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

Yeah. And it's crazy to think too that like you've said this to me before, actually, in like moments that are really hard for me to forgive. You were like, listen, Jesus already forgave that person. So if you're gonna stand here and withhold forgiveness, you're basically saying that the works of the cross were not enough. Exactly. No, you're you're in direct denial and conflict with the finished work of the cross. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 33:31

That was the word he gave me, but that was the word he gave me recently. Because there was there's one particular situation in my life that has been really hard for me to forgive. One person in my life that has been really hard for me to forgive. And I want to, though my emotions may say something otherwise. And I remember I was meditating on the cross one morning because I was like, Lord, I need you to help me with this. He actually showed me that I still had not forgiven them because I had a dream the night before where I was throwing plates at their face. I was like, oh, okay. Woke up the next morning and was like, Kate, true. So I really brought it into prayer. And um, I was walking to church that morning, actually, and I was meditating on the cross. And he said to me, He was like, I was like, Lord, help me forgive this person, help me forgive this person. He's like, You're forgetting that I already did. And what he showed me in that moment is when when you are choosing on forgiveness, you are coming out of agreement with the authority of the cross, the finished work of the cross, which means you're coming out of agreement with your identity in Christ, your authority in Christ as a daughter. That's not a position you want to be in. Think about how what that means for your life and the just the lack of covering that you now have as an individual, because you're essentially saying that the that what Jesus did is null and void.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:56

Wow. Like, right? Um it's not even, it's like forgiveness is more of an authority issue than anything else. Because if you really believe that Jesus died for you, you would be forgiving everyone like it's your daily job.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Even when they don't apologize to you.

SPEAKER_04 35:11

When they don't deserve it. Yeah. Forgiveness is not about does it's not it's something you grant when somebody deserves it. It's a free gift. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Mm-hmm. It's actually a way, like, like it is, it really is for you. It really is. Like, I I think I've recently experienced I had a relationship with a friend and I realized I hadn't forgiven them yet. And my pride was not wanting to extend love towards them. Like, I wanted to share something with them, but I was like, oh no, but I can't do that because they haven't reached out to me. They haven't, I've experienced that feeling of not wanting to reciprocate or wanting to reciprocate what somebody's giving me so many times. And this is something I was recently convicted of. And had a moment where I was like, I should just share this with her. I know she liked it, I know she wanted it. And I was like, let me just share this with her. And I did. And I felt this relief of like, wow, I actually did not want to be holding that unforgiveness. It actually pains you to hold unforgiveness because it is it is not in our nature in Christ to not forgive somebody. It's it's a direct separation. It separates you from the Father's love. It it's yeah, and it that's actually painful. And I and it's like it's and then everyone like I've experienced myself actually get frustrated because I've blamed somebody else for not letting me be the loving person that I want to be.

SPEAKER_03 36:39

It's crazy. Like I can't be a good person because you hurt me. That's crazy. How dare you not let me be good to you?

SPEAKER_00 36:49

I've experienced that real life. But I can't, and I'm upset because I want to be this, but I can't be this because you're hurting me. And it's like, no, that's not actually how it works how it works. And yeah, you realize how much you're actually causing yourself pain when you're not forgiving somebody. Yeah. Even if they didn't apologize to you.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

Right. I think when you become a Christian, your entire definition of love really changes. And everything we've been talking about on this whole episode really points back to that. How, you know, we used to think love was being in relationship with somebody as long as they're doing everything right in your eyes, as long as they're showing up when you need them and how you need them too, and they're, you know, never speaking to you rudely or you know, not following through on their promises. And becoming Christian, you start to face the brokenness of the world head on, and then you also start to understand what God looks like or from what love looks like from God's perspective. So I want to anchor in everything we've been talking about with this scripture from 1 Corinthians 13, which is where we really get a definition of love in the Bible, and it's very different from the worldly definition of love. So, 1 Corinthians 13 4 says, Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, it always trusts, it always hopes, it always perseveres. Love never fails. So as carriers of Christ's love, our goal, which is an impossible goal, is to love like this, patiently, without envy, without pride, without being self-seeking, without dishonoring others, not being easily angered, not keeping a record of right and wrongs, aka not holding resentment. To always trust. Can you imagine that? To always hope, to always persevere in your relationships. Even the ones that it feels like, oh, like I wish I could stop choosing this person, but unfortunately God assigned them to be in my life. Just by nature, the fact that they're my my kin. My blood. Yeah. Or my spouse or my child. You know, like there's certain relationships that that God has assigned to us so that we might actually experience and live out this love that always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

How do you guys move about knowing that like because Christians are most persecuted for oh, but you guys you believe all these things, you follow all these things, but you're not doing it all the time. You're not perfect in that. And it's like, how do we move through this knowing that this is love, this is what we this is what love is, and yet we fall short of it every time.

SPEAKER_04 40:24

I think heaven is crowded with imperfect humans. And I think the only way is through God's grace. I think when you accept Jesus Christ into your heart and you have the Holy Spirit living in you, He gives you a desire to want to love that way. And to notice the moments when you separated from that kind of love. We'll be learning how to walk that out for the rest of our lives. This is like a training ground for how to love well, this world, this broken world. This is a training ground for learning how to walk God's grace out. And so I don't think that it's possible without his grace, without daily repentance and without a willingness to seek his heart first, always.

SPEAKER_03 41:15

Thank you so much for joining us here at the altar. Can you guys believe that it's been two whole seasons together? We are so happy that you've been with us through the first few seasons of this podcast. And if you've been loving these episodes, we just want to ask you to subscribe. It really is the best way that you can support us and that we can continue to create many more seasons for you. So please, as always, leave us a DM, leave us a comment, let us know how you enjoyed the season. Tell us what your favorite episode was, and we will see you again very, very soon at the altar.