The Present Illness

Epstein's Dirty Medical Money (plus Space Babies!)

• Alyssa Burgart & Arghavan Salles • Season 1 • Episode 19

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0:00 | 59:33

Epstein dirty money in Medical Education; Should we make babies in outer space?; Olympian’s relationship fumble; Knitting the resistance; Possum cake (yeah you read that right)

Epstein’s Ties to Medical Education

Fact check! The representative Arghavan referred to who brought up the email from survivors is Thomas Massie, not Anthony Massie.

Space Sex (Not SpaceX)

Take Two and Call Me in the Morning💊

Thanks for listening to The Present Illness with Drs. Arghavan Salles and Alyssa Burgart!

Follow us on TikTok and Instagram @ThePresentIllness

Credits

  • Production by Arghavan Salles and Alyssa Burgart
  • Editing by Alyssa Burgart
  • Theme Music by Joseph Uphoff
  • Social Media by Arghavan Salles

Arghavan (00:00)
But at Ohio State, if you are a medical student at Ohio State, when you are learning how to care for patients and how to protect patients,

you are walking through the doors of a place that has the name of a man who not only was really close to Jeffrey Epstein, but to be clear, we found out this week was one of the names that was listed as a potential co-conspirator of Jeffrey Epstein

Hey there, fellow nerds, welcome back to another episode of The Present Illness, the podcast where the two of us as physicians try to make sense of a world that's a little febrile and definitely underdiagnosed. I'm Arghavan Salles I'm a surgeon scientist and your friendly neighborhood doom scroller in residence.

Alyssa Burgart (00:43)
And I'm Alyssa Burgart an anesthesiologist and bioethicist who tracks news and health law like they're EKGs full of spikes and surprises. The present illness is where we dig into public health, politics, culture, and ethics with a scalpel in one hand and a meme in the other.

Arghavan (00:58)
Huge shout out to everyone who's listening and extra love to our subscribers and followers and a warm welcome to anyone who just stumbled in from Pan Bondi's congressional testimony from yesterday.

Alyssa Burgart (01:10)
Terrible.

Terrible.

Arghavan (01:12)
I know

in case folks didn't see it, she basically refused to answer really anything and insisted that everything was fine because the Dow Jones is over 50,000. So what does it matter if the president was involved in harming children and young women? The Dow is at 50,000.

Alyssa Burgart (01:34)
I just... it's... there are no words. There are no words.

Arghavan (01:40)
It is, no,

it's very hard to, it's very hard to understand and make sense of the whole thing. The other thing that stood out to me from it in case folks haven't seen it is that there were a couple of times when the members of Congress acknowledged the survivors who were there for the hearing and asked them things like, had they asked to speak with folks at the DOJ and they all raised their hands and said, yes. And then they said, has anyone from the DOJ reached out to you? Not a single person had been reached out to.

They also asked Pam Bondi, the Congress folks ⁓ asked Pam Bondi to apologize to the survivors for the way the files have been mishandled. ⁓ know, ⁓ Anthony Massey, he had put up, you know how they have those big boards. Anyway, he had a big board with an email that survivors had sent the DOJ with a list of names that they would like to see redacted in the files, the names of survivors.

Alyssa Burgart (02:37)
Mm-hmm.

Arghavan (02:38)
and they included that email in the files.

And so Pam Bondi refused, not only did she refuse to apologize, but she refused to even turn around and look at the survivors at any time. And there's a photo, if folks haven't seen it, it's worth seeing, where you can see Pam Bondi just looking straight ahead and all the survivors behind her with their hands raised and half of them are looking at her, expecting her to turn around and look at them. And she will not even give them that tiniest bit of dignity or acknowledgement.

Alyssa Burgart (03:14)
I mean, there was no ⁓ more obvious visual to how little the government cares about the survivors. ⁓ But on that note, we are glad that you are all here. And as a note to our new listeners, as you have probably picked up, we often talk about topics that are intense. They can be a lot. And that includes things like SA and CSAM. And so if you ⁓ have little ones with you, you might want to put your headphones in. And if you need to take a break, we totally get it. ⁓

But let's get into this week's episode. Argevan, I know that you have a lot more to say about the doctors in the Epstein files.

Arghavan (03:54)
Yeah, I do have things to say about doctors and the Epstein files, but also I want to start with Les Wexner. So Les Wexner is a business guy. He's I think 88 now. ⁓ And he was the founder of The Limited and was a former CEO of Victoria's Secret. And he was really good friends with Jeffrey Epstein. And ⁓ he was, a lot of people say that a lot of Jeffrey Epstein's wealth came from

Les Wexner as Epstein was managing Wexner's wealth essentially. And they were so close that in 1991, Les Wexner gave power of attorney for his entire estate to Jeffrey Epstein. And I mean, like they were close, you know? And that continued to be the case until around 2007. So what happened in 2007?

Alyssa Burgart (04:40)
I had missed that.

Arghavan (04:53)
was not that Les Wexner was like, bro, you harm children, I'm out. No, that's not what happened. What happened was there was this investigation right in Florida that we know ended with that sweetheart deal for Jeffrey Epstein when he pleaded guilty in 2008. So in 2007, that investigation was ongoing. Epstein had reportedly said to Les, hey, why doesn't your wife handle the finances for a while while I'm dealing with this investigation?

and Les Wexner's wife Abigail then started looking at the records and found that Epstein had been stealing a lot of money from.

Alyssa Burgart (05:33)
I mean, I'm just saying, I know we've said it before, we're going to say it again. It turns out that when someone is a scumbag in one major part of their life, they may very well be a scumbag in another part of their life.

Arghavan (05:44)
Correct.

And so that is what led to the rupture of this relationship, this business relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and Les Wexner. Now, what does that have to do with medicine? Well, Ohio State University has one of the best medical schools in the country. And the medical center that's affiliated with the medical school is called the Wexner Medical Center.

He has, I believe he's from Ohio, he lives in Ohio.

So he's donated a lot of money over the years to Ohio State and other places, by the way, he's got a building named after him at Harvard and Harvard is now including him in their investigation, which we've mentioned a long time ago about the Epstein files.

Alyssa Burgart (06:14)
Mm-hmm.

Arghavan (06:24)
But at Ohio State, if you are a medical student at Ohio State, when you are learning how to care for patients and how to protect patients,

you are walking through the doors of a place that has the name of a man who not only was really close to Jeffrey Epstein, but to be clear, we found out this week was one of the names that was listed as a potential co-conspirator of Jeffrey Epstein in the files. His name had been redacted until earlier this week when there was a demand from Massey to unredact it.

So we have this guy in Les Wexner, super wealthy guy.

who was not only close friends with Epstein, not only trusted Epstein so much that he gave him control of his entire estate, but also was considered by the FBI at least at some point to be a co-conspirator. Now I wanna add another wrinkle that you may or may not have heard of. So there's a person I've mentioned to you before, I can't remember if he's come up on our podcast, but his name is Barrett Paul. Barrett Paul was a model and he...

Alyssa Burgart (07:27)
Mm-hmm.

Arghavan (07:32)
has talked for years now about his experience being trafficked and has multiple times called out Les Wexner by name as being integral to the trafficking of himself and other models. So Les Wexner of course denies any knowledge of Jeffrey Epstein's, yeah, wrongdoing.

Which, I believe as much as I believe any of other people who are in the files many, many times and say, ⁓ I had no idea. I'm just a little businessman. How could I possibly know? Anyway, so.

Alyssa Burgart (08:09)
Also, you're terrible business person if you literally have no idea what's happening to any of your money or anything about the people who you're letting run your money and that you're giving money to people who are terrible. You're bad at business. No matter how much money you have.

Arghavan (08:24)
Yeah, if that's what you want us to believe.

And I agree. If that's what you want us to believe, that you had no idea this stuff was going on, then you were not doing your job well. The other really, or another really key point I want to make sure to mention is that Virginia Dufray, who is a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein, had testified as part of a deposition in 2016 that Les Wexner was one of the men she was trafficked to and that she was forced to have sex with him.

up to, she says somewhere between three and 10 times, more than three times, fewer than 10 times. And she was a witness to him having sexual relations with another girl and specifically calls out that he was raping minors in this deposition, which was in 2016. Now, Les Wexner's name has been on the Ohio State Medical Center since 2012.

Alyssa Burgart (09:23)
Yeah, I was just doing a back of the envelope calculation. we got 14 years. I just looked up there's 230 students in the School of Medicine at the Ohio State University every year. And so since it bore his name, 3,220 physicians, give or take, ⁓ have graduated from an organization that bears his name.

Arghavan (09:51)
And probably I would guess most of them had no idea about any of this, but I can guarantee the administrators knew. I can guarantee at least in 2016 when this deposition happened that there had to have been some attention to this, but clearly no change was made. And...

Alyssa Burgart (09:54)
No, but I mean, of course not.

Arghavan (10:14)
I think it's hard to be learning about ethics and how to protect our patients when your institution has aligned itself with someone who had this kind of relationship with such a terrible, terrible person in Jeffrey Epstein, in terrible and multiple ways as you were saying, and the institution doesn't seem to want.

to address it in any way. It's also worth pointing out that the doctor for some of the athletic teams at Ohio State who had been abusing athletes for many, many years at Ohio State, his name is Richard Strauss, when he was there, Les Wexner was on the board of trustees at Ohio State. And as part of that case, so if folks haven't watched Surviving Ohio State, I would really recommend watching it.

As part of the ongoing attempts of those survivors to seek justice from the university, they have been trying to get Les Wexner to come and testify. And he is basically dodging all their subpoenas and refuses to come, just even say as a member of the board of trustees, what did he know and when did he know it and what were their conversations? And he just keeps dodging them. So.

Alyssa Burgart (11:40)
is this is just one of the many ways that you see again and again the way that wealth protects predators. Because if this was somebody who didn't have a lot of money, didn't have the ability to hire, I don't know, whatever fancy lawyers rich people hire, can you imagine being able to get out of being summoned? I don't think so.

Arghavan (11:59)
No, most of us would be shaking in our boots if we had like known about this kind of harm and not stopped it and then someone wanted to just ask us about it. Most of us would be very scared. But people like this, right, in general, as some folks are calling it the Epstein class, they think they're above accountability and that and they have been. And as long as Pam Bondi is the one we're relying on to do something about it, they're going to continue to be.

Alyssa Burgart (12:19)
And they have been.

Arghavan (12:29)
beyond reproach in a way. So that's the Les Wexner part of it. And I mention it because it just is so incongruous to me that a medical center would carry this man's name. And I understand that money talks and I'm not naive to the power that money buys people. And I understand that these institutions need money and it's not a minor task to remove a person's name.

from the medical center or any other building. I'm not, I'm genuinely not naive to those challenges. And yet, I think it is so unprincipled and unethical that it's worth figuring out how to do. And it doesn't seem like, from what is publicly available, it doesn't seem like Ohio State is making really any movement in that direction.

Alyssa Burgart (13:20)
And this is the power of the donor class is so obvious in medicine. was just explaining this to someone in the hospital recently where they were just trying to understand like, doesn't the hospital invest in X or Y or Z? And I was like, well, there's no money for that. was like, 40 % of our patients are Medicare or Medicaid. Like, the reason that this building exists is because a lot of rich people were convinced to give a lot of money to put their name on a building.

That's why this facility exists. That's why we have these certain resources. These are all bonus things that are only possible because you have a donor class that is relied upon to make those things available. ⁓ And so it's this very dysfunctional relationship across the healthcare sector that really relies on VIPs.

Arghavan (14:09)
Yeah, and it's not just in healthcare. I I was also thinking about this ⁓ across higher ed more generally, because if you look at Epstein's behavior over time, he clearly had an intentional strategy of laundering his reputation through academic institutions. To whatever extent you want to believe different people, it is clear that a lot of people in academia were going to him for money.

Alyssa Burgart (14:25)
Mm-hmm.

Arghavan (14:35)
what knowledge they had of his other activities and to what degree they were involved in those other activities is a different question. But clearly a lot of people in academics were eager to be connected to him and to seek donations from him to support their work. If we had a system that were more functional where getting a job at university meant, for example, that you had the resources to do the work that you needed to do, people wouldn't need to be putting themselves in these positions. And I'm not excusing anyone either.

Alyssa Burgart (14:35)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Arghavan (15:04)
But we wouldn't need to be seeking out donors like this and then helping them launder their reputations when and at times unknowingly, right? Probably a lot of times unknowingly. But speaking of that, so I want to have I have one more kind of wrinkle around Ohio State that I wanted to mention, which is there's this the chair of obstetrics and gynecology. There is a man named Mark Landon. Mark Landon was affiliated with Epstein in the early 2000s. So preceding

I think the investigation and certainly preceding ⁓ the plea that Epstein had in 2018. He was getting something along the lines of 25 to $30,000 a quarter up to about, it sounds like $75,000 a year from Epstein. And Epstein was billing Les Wexner for that money to pay Mark Landon. Yeah.

Alyssa Burgart (16:01)
Sorry, I'm sorry.

Arghavan (16:04)
For who knows what? It's really not clear. Mark Landon says, of course, that he was doing consulting work, I believe he said, on biotechnology. For what purpose? mean, Epstein doesn't have a biotechnology company. Les Wexner, to my knowledge, doesn't have a biotechnology company. And what are you doing as a consultant that pays you $25,000 a ⁓ quarter? I I do some consulting work, as you know, for an industry partner here.

Alyssa Burgart (16:16)
what

Arghavan (16:33)
I don't know that I've cumulatively over like six years been paid $25,000, much less per quarter. And so I don't know, I don't know. I'm not saying that I know what that money was for, but what I will say is that Epstein's brother has in the emails, in the files, we see an email from Epstein's brother asking, who is the gynecologist you use for your victims in New York? Or sorry, for your victims. And then Epstein writes back in New York, which implies,

like in other places too? Correct. So which of these gynecologists that I'm using for my victims are you talking about? And I raise that in this context. Now, again, I don't know anything about what Mark Landon did or didn't do, but what we do know is that because Epstein was harming many women and children, some number of them were getting exposed to sexually transmitted infections. Some number of them we know from the files were getting pregnant.

Alyssa Burgart (17:02)
There's many other opportunities, yeah.

Arghavan (17:30)
some number of them would have had injuries that needed to be treated from the things that were done to them. They needed to get care somewhere. And so I think the question, and it's really just a question, the question this financial arrangement raises is was Mark Landon treating the women and children who Epstein and his clients, whoever, were harming? Mark Landon says no.

Not surprisingly. says, no, I never cared for anybody. was strictly a consultant. But that is just such a large amount of money. It's really hard for me to think.

what were you legitimately doing for Epstein that was billed through Wexner? I don't know, but it raises a lot of questions. And this is not a random person. This is the chair of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology at one of the best medical schools in the country.

At the very least, there needs to be an investigation from Ohio State. They need to be figuring out what this money was for. also, I forgot to mention Epstein was shipping packages to Mark Landon via FedEx. At least 10 different packages were sent. We have no idea what was in these packages. What kind of consulting work requires your client to ship you packages?

Alyssa Burgart (18:57)
My f- I-

I can't even imagine. I don't want to imagine.

Arghavan (19:04)
I don't know. mean,

yeah, there could be, again, I don't know enough, we don't know enough. There could be some reasonable explanation, but it certainly doesn't look good from where I sit. And it's certainly enough information for Ohio State to be wanting to look into it if they care about justice. And keep in mind, not only is this man the chair, he's still seeing patients at Ohio State.

And you and I have both talked many times about men physicians who use their position of power to harm patients. I'm not saying that this man did that. I have no idea. But when you have someone who had this kind of relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, who we know, indisputable, harmed so many women and children, I think it's incumbent upon the medical school and the medical center, his employers.

to make sure that they're protecting the patients.

Alyssa Burgart (20:03)
Yeah. And it's going to be interesting, right, to hear what comes out now that his name is in the news around this issue. ⁓ You know, what reports are going to come out. And there's going to be probably some patients who are like, he was the greatest doctor. He never did anything bad to me. But I also won't be surprised if there are people who say he was not a good doctor to me.

Arghavan (20:28)
I mean, it's hard to know, right? Like we've talked to before, you and I, that if you want to go digging dirt for dirt on anybody, you can find it. You can find it. There's no one who's a complete angel at all times in their life with every single person. so I'm not saying this is an easy task. I'm not saying it's clear cut, but I think that Ohio State owes its patients the due diligence of looking into this and figuring out.

Alyssa Burgart (20:40)
Of course.

Arghavan (20:55)
What actually was the nature of this relationship? What was in those packages? What was going on for real?

Alyssa Burgart (21:02)
Well, and there's

no way that other people at Ohio State, other administrators, other folks didn't understand there was a financial arrangement and wouldn't have asked questions or at least been curious. And maybe they had been told to set those fears aside. ⁓ But as we've seen with lots of physicians who have done inexcusable, harmful things, whether those are things related to sexual abuse, whether those are things related to fraud.

Arghavan (21:14)
Mm-hmm.

Alyssa Burgart (21:32)
things related to other kinds of financial abuse. ⁓ There's oftentimes a culture of silence and complicity that allows that behavior to continue and to escalate.

Arghavan (21:45)
Yeah, that's right. actually, Cortina and colleagues called this network silence, this idea that everybody knows, but nobody says anything about it. ⁓ And it's how they describe it in the context of sexual harassment and sexual assault. ⁓ And that's how people continue to carry on with these behaviors, because everybody knows. mean, look at Harvey Weinstein. For how many years was he?

Alyssa Burgart (21:49)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Arghavan (22:15)
abusing actresses, models, whoever. And I mean, it seemed like everybody knew. And it wasn't until the big explosion of Me Too in 2017 that there started to be some accountability for him. So I do think, yeah, network silence is definitely a big part of what happens. There's other doctors or academics, there's lots of academics in the Epstein files.

But another one that people have talked about, well there's probably two more who are worth mentioning. I'm just looking at my notes. I mean there's many, but the two I would mention are a guy named Martin Novak at Harvard who had this email that he sent Epstein where he said he was so happy he didn't kill anybody. Seems weird. I mean, could be a joke. I've never.

Alyssa Burgart (23:10)
We don't know the context, I guess.

Arghavan (23:14)
joked that I was so happy I didn't kill anybody, but maybe people do, I don't know. There's also an email where he says, our spy was captured and Epstein writes back, did you torture her?

Doesn't seem, again, you'd have a hard time finding me sending an email like that or receiving an email like that. Anyway, so there's that guy. And I don't know what's becoming of that situation. There's also a guy at UCLA who's a neurologist, name is Mark Tramo, or Tramo, T-R-A-M-O, who had an email, had a number of somewhat concerning

Alyssa Burgart (23:51)
Mm-hmm.

Arghavan (23:59)
emails with Jeffrey Epstein. But one of them that's probably gotten the most attention is this one where he says, was just reading today that newborns will suck on a pacifier more vigorously if it triggers playback of a recording of her or his mother's voice ⁓ than another woman's voice. And people have interpreted this as giving advice on how to get newborns to suck more vigorously, which is a really terrifying and disgusting thing to think about. ⁓ We don't know.

that that's what the intention was. Maybe it was just sharing some interesting science fact, you know, I don't know. But that's been very concerning to a lot of people and there have been a lot of people who've contacted UCLA asking them to remove him. They had, seems, briefly taken down his webpage for the university, but then I heard that it was back up. haven't checked that myself. It's not clear.

what's happening with that one. And then I guess there's one more I wanna mention, which is this guy named David Gelernter, who is at Yale. And he is in the Epstein files as well, obviously, and he had recommended a student to Epstein, ⁓ it's unclear for what job, but some sort of job recommendation for a woman who was his student, and he calls her small, very small, ⁓

And I forget, I'll look at it right now, but gorgeous, I think is the word. So he's commenting on her appearance as part of this job recommendation. And people of course thought that was inappropriate. And his defense was, well, when you're writing a recommendation, you're thinking about what the person who's doing the hiring wants to see. And I knew he would want to know how she looks. And if I didn't put it in the letter, he would have called me and I would have had to.

Alyssa Burgart (25:50)
Hmm.

Arghavan (25:55)
explain in even more detail about how she looks, which I mean seeing the look on your face, you have to wonder why would you be recommending your student to go work for someone who is going to care so much about how this student looks. That seems weird. That seems like you're putting her in an unsafe situation.

Alyssa Burgart (26:11)
Also, I'm sorry,

I'm sorry, if I don't put how someone looks in their letter, they're gonna call me to ask me. I mean, guys, this is not normal. This is not acceptable.

Arghavan (26:23)
No,

no. And I'm just saying, like you could say to her, this is maybe not a good job for you. Like you don't have to indulge this pathologic behavior because I would just submit that if you know a person is only gonna hire someone because they're attractive, you are exposing that student to risk. And this is totally not the thing you should be doing as their professor.

as their mentor, however he saw his relationship to the students. So anyway, he did not apologize.

Alyssa Burgart (26:53)
mean, he sounds like

he thought of his job as being their pimp.

Arghavan (26:58)
I mean, yeah, you're not wrong. It does have that vibe. Now he, to my knowledge, as of at least a couple days ago, has not apologized for that. In fact, he's just continued to say that that was the right thing to do. I just saw yesterday that he has been removed from teaching the class that he was teaching this term. I don't know what's going to come of that. Anyway, so that's another case. Those are probably the main ones worth.

Alyssa Burgart (27:00)
I mean, that's what that sounds like.

Hmm. Well, I just looked up Mark Trammo on UCLA's website and he still has a faculty profile.

Arghavan (27:28)
mentioning at this point.

Yeah, I think it was only down briefly and who knows why even it was down. It might've just been a glitch, but people thought it meant something. Yeah.

Alyssa Burgart (27:45)
Maybe something was going to happen. Maybe some sort of responsibility

would be looked for.

Arghavan (27:52)
Yeah, that's probably what the hope had been. then, yeah, it might have just been an IT issue. Who knows even why it was gone briefly, you know?

Alyssa Burgart (27:56)
That's so cute.

website

was down because too many people were trying to read it.

Arghavan (28:03)
It

could be. mean, I've seen a lot of people putting up like for Mark Landon, putting up his page from Ohio State with a phone number saying, feel free to call, ask whatever questions you want to ask. You know, if they get that feedback from folks that there's concern, maybe that pushes them to take some kind of action. ⁓ So Galernter.

Yeah, he described her as a very small, good-looking blonde. Those were the terms that he used. He also called her an editoress, like an editor, but that's not a word. No. Anyway, he is, yeah.

Alyssa Burgart (28:44)
That's not a gendered word.

He sucks.

Arghavan (28:54)
Yeah, he said Epstein was obsessed with girls like every other unmarried billionaire in Manhattan. And he was keeping quote unquote, the potential boss's habits in mind. So long as I said nothing that dishonored her in any conceivable way, I'd have told him more or less what he wanted. She was smart, charming and gorgeous. I had to have suppressed that info? Never.

Apparently he said, I'm very glad I wrote the note.

Alyssa Burgart (29:25)
today

in the year 2026.

Arghavan (29:29)
I think so.

Alyssa Burgart (29:33)
⁓ So also no evolution since that was written.

Arghavan (29:38)
As far as I can tell, yeah, last week, that was last week. ⁓

Alyssa Burgart (29:38)
You know what?

I'm sure that he is somebody who hates woke-ism. I bet you. And I bet he rails against cancel culture.

Arghavan (29:51)
And me too went too far, I'm sure, in his assessment.

Alyssa Burgart (29:54)
You can't say anything anymore. Am I right?

Arghavan (30:02)
You can't even comment on your students' appearance anymore. Gosh darn it, what a terrible world we ended up in. How did we get here?

Alyssa Burgart (30:17)
Okay, well, I think that's enough of those people. They suck. These people suck. We deserve better. Everyone deserves better, okay? You deserve better letter writers. You deserve people who want you to be safe and actually try to aim to create a moral community in which people can be safe in their bodies and their minds in order to work and to live. I mean, you should be able to go to the doctor and not worry that something terrible will happen to you because the rules don't apply to them.

Everyone deserves that.

Arghavan (30:49)
Everyone deserves that. And yet I think, you know, one of the services, if we can call it that, that these files and these emails have done is to show people who may not necessarily have been aware how far money will get you. ⁓ And I think we, you know, most adults know the world is not fair, but to see the egregious things that these people were doing and facing absolutely no consequences for

Alyssa Burgart (31:06)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Arghavan (31:19)
I do think is surprising even for those of us who are well aware of power dynamics. you know, I know we can, we can move on a second, like even Zorro Ranch, the ranch that he Epstein had in New Mexico, what do you mean they never did a thorough search of the ranch?

Alyssa Burgart (31:25)
Mm-hmm.

I mean, and New Mexico has a terrible, terrible human trafficking problem. There are so many people that are trafficked specifically through New Mexico, so many vulnerable people there. It is horrifying to not even do the bare minimum and like go check the place out.

Arghavan (31:53)
And right, this is what I'm saying.

Like it's a massive ranch that he had there. I've seen just from the aerial pictures, it's a huge property. I don't know how many acres, but that was one of the places, if folks recall our conversation about Atiya, Atiya had bought plane tickets to go to that ranch. mean, this was one of the central sites where he was, Epstein, was harming people ⁓ and children.

What I understand is that he filled the underground tunnels and passages and he filled it all with concrete before he was arrested apparently. I don't know what evidence was there.

Alyssa Burgart (32:33)
Contractors

did that. Okay, guys. want to know what gentlemen Gentlemen y'all went out there and you were like, I know let's fill it with concrete. Come on You didn't think that was weird

Arghavan (32:45)
Come here.

you know the thing is again that goes back to making the same point is that people will do things for money. I mean look at Leslie Groff. Lesley Groff was his assistant. She's on I don't know what proportion of these emails she was helping people booking plane tickets, hotel rooms, staying in Epstein's apartment. There's this whole thing about the dentist appointments. We don't have time to get into but a lot of dentist appointments. I don't know what those are all about genuinely don't know. There's a lot of talk about beef jerky.

What does beef jerky, lots of beef jerky? Exactly, lots of needs for making sure that there's enough beef jerky. Anyway, Leslie Groff, why is she not testifying in front of Congress? That's what I wanna know. Yes, Peggy Siegel, publicist Peggy Siegel. She's also all over these emails. And I'm not just saying these two names because they happen to be women, but they're involved in these networks, especially Leslie. mean, she was his assistant.

Alyssa Burgart (33:23)
I don't want to know. don't want to know. ⁓

I want all these people to have to testify.

Mm-hmm.

Arghavan (33:49)
So she was organizing everything. I don't understand. They know everything. It's the same like with Diddy. We talked about this with Diddy, right? That these types of abuses do not occur in a vacuum. All those people for ⁓ Diddy, Puff Daddy, whatever you want to call them, you know, the drivers, the assistants, everyone knew about the harm that he was causing. Yet,

Alyssa Burgart (33:51)
Let me tell you, the assistants know everything. They know everything.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Arghavan (34:16)
They had a job and they needed a paycheck. They had to pay their bills and that's how it happens. But at this point in time, what I'm saying is Leslie Groff knows a lot and Ghislaine Maxwell is not going to say anything. I mean, she was brought in front of Congress earlier this week and she pleaded the fifth. You can't plead the fifth when you've already been convicted. What are you protecting yourself from? You're already convicted, you're in prison. But she pleaded the fifth, she refused to answer any questions. She is and she...

Alyssa Burgart (34:40)
She's in a cushy prison now though.

Arghavan (34:44)
has said that she will absolve the president if he commutes her sentence. That doesn't sound like a bribe. But anyway, my point is we don't need to rely on her. Leslie Graf exists and the survivors, as many have pointed out time and time again, the survivors also exist and many of them are wanting to talk.

Alyssa Burgart (35:02)
What if we... Are you

saying that we should actually believe the people most impacted? Are you saying believe survivors?

Arghavan (35:10)
I am saying that and I am saying that they have said many times, they know the names, they know who was involved, they know who they were trafficked to. We don't even need Leslie Groff to tell us that. But no one in our justice system seems to be following the leads that seem like they make sense. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not in the FBI, like, I don't know, maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about. But like sitting from the outside, it's like there are people here who clearly know what happened. Why are you going to Ghislaine Maxwell who has a vested interest in lying?

so she can get herself out of prison.

Alyssa Burgart (35:42)
Yeah, I mean, and this is also to your point about how people are starting to see the networked nature of these crimes. It's so important, right? Because we've been conditioned in so many ways to think, oh, it's just one bad apple. It's just one Epstein. It's just one Jelaine Maxwell. It's just one Larry Nassar. It's just one whatever. Yeah, Robert Haddon. It's never just one person.

Arghavan (36:07)
Robert Haddon.

Alyssa Burgart (36:11)
It is a group of people who embolden and embody and make it possible for these people to continue these things that they're doing because they have no boundaries. There's no boundaries put around them. There's no accountability. And everyone's like, well, this is just the way it is, or I don't know how people sleep at night. As a transition, I did see a really funny video that I will put a link in the show notes. And it was... ⁓

a woman playing herself in 2016 and herself now. like how, you know, in 2016 it was like, love is love and we're gonna teach everybody how to understand that we care about everybody. And then now she's like putting on my riot gear. And there's a section where she was like 2016, you know, it was when QAnon was all the stuff about Pizzagate and like, oh, there's this sex cabal of all of these like billionaire elites who were

who were raping children and that that just sounded too nuts. And now in 2026, it's like the Epstein files. actually like it wasn't Pizzagate, but it is real.

Arghavan (37:17)
Yeah, was the wrong people. It's a thing, but they have the wrong people implicated. If folks remember somebody went to this pizza shop in DC and shot at people because he thought Bill and Hillary Clinton were trafficking girls through there, which was not the case. But turns out there are people trafficking girls ⁓ and they're, I'll be honest, I think they're still doing it because just cause Jeffrey Epstein is dead doesn't mean anything. Like somebody took over that business. It was a thriving business.

Alyssa Burgart (37:28)
Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, this is a huge problem.

Well, and we should talk at another time about the way that ⁓ AI technology is making actually a bunch of these issues a lot worse. Not just in terms of ⁓ the digital crimes, but in terms of how that's leading to more kids being harmed. ⁓ Okay, well, like, let's move on. Let's talk about something else. It's gonna be a little...

Arghavan (38:13)
Yes, I want to

hear you had something interesting, a science related story to share.

Alyssa Burgart (38:17)
⁓ Yeah, and like maybe this can be little jarring, ⁓ I'm really excited about it. So I'm into space ethics. Like I am not, it's not my area of expertise, but I have some friends that are really into space ethics. And many years ago, I got to go to ⁓ the American Society of Bioethics and Humanities had their conference in Houston, which is where NASA has been. I guess it's moving back to Huntsville or whatever. But some of

Arghavan (38:42)
Mm-hmm.

Alyssa Burgart (38:44)
when this meeting was in Houston, I got to meet a bunch of people who were like the research staff for NASA and the people who were on the IRB for NASA. And I got to meet a bunch of astronauts and it was really fun. And so I'd really enjoyed like learning more about space ethics. And so I kind of keep an eye out for, you know, what are like interesting things that are coming out around space? you know, I don't ever need to go to space. Like I don't think that we should colonize Mars. I'm not into that.

Arghavan (39:05)
and

Alyssa Burgart (39:12)
But I ⁓ like the intellectual things to think about. There's also a whole branch of medicine that is people who do like, you know, low gravity medicine and stuff like that.

Arghavan (39:22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way,

did you know that, so Elon Musk, for folks who don't know, has four years said we're gonna be on Mars within like, pick a number, he changes it all the time. But like he basically said we would already be on Mars, which we clearly are not. Recently, he has revised his goals. He says he's given up on going to Mars, takes too much effort. He's gonna develop a colony on the moon. So just so you know, that's a coming right up.

Alyssa Burgart (39:52)
Could he just shut up? ⁓ Anyway, well, so I don't want to talk about SpaceX, which is his ⁓ space company, but I do want to talk about SpaceX. And so there was this paper, tell me more. So there was this paper that came out and it's called Reproductive Biomedicine in Space, Implications for Gametogenesis.

Arghavan (39:54)
Wouldn't that be nice? ⁓ my goodness. Yeah.

Tell me more!

Alyssa Burgart (40:18)
fertility and ethical considerations in the era of commercial space flight. Which I just thought sounded super interesting. So there's all of these technical questions around space travel. If you imagine, let's say that people were still going to try to go to Mars. It's like a three-year journey.

Do you send a surgeon so that they can do an appendectomy if somebody needs an appendectomy? Do you let them die in route? How are we thinking about Hope for the best? How are we managing ⁓ caring for the people who supposedly are on these ⁓ long space journeys? And so. ⁓

Arghavan (40:48)
You just send them with antibiotics?

Alyssa Burgart (41:02)
There have been a couple of years ago, there was this ⁓ sort of fervor in the space community about like, should we have babies in space? And, ⁓ you know, we're humans, we like to reproduce. It's a big part of who we are as creatures, is we wanna make more of ourselves. ⁓ But space is very toxic. Like there's a reason that there is not life on the moon. There is a reason that we have not found any life on.

Arghavan (41:27)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

Alyssa Burgart (41:31)
Mars or any of the other planets in our own orbit, that's not possible. It's not the right conditions. And so ⁓ it's this very hostile environment. The Earth is this very unusual place that's made it possible for life to be sustained on this planet. So there's all of this interest in finding other kind of near-Earth type of ⁓ planets in other solar systems. ⁓ And so anyway, this

⁓ This paper from somebody named ⁓ Giles Anthony Palmer, who's from the International IVF Initiative, ⁓ brought up all of these issues around microgravity. So this idea that you don't have the kind of gravity we have on Earth. And so what kind of changes or problems might that cause? ⁓ Cosmic radiation. Like we don't want pregnant people to get CT scans because we don't want them to be exposed to radiation. So do we really want to send them out?

beyond our atmosphere where they're going to be exposed to all this radiation, circadian disruption. if you listen to interviews, for example, with people who have been in near Earth orbit, for example, on the space station, night and day happens a lot faster, for example, just because of the positioning of if you're going around the Earth,

Arghavan (42:36)
Mm-hmm.

Alyssa Burgart (43:00)
you're going where it's dark, and then you're going where it's light. And that's not happening at the same rate that the Earth turns. And so ⁓ that's very disruptive to human beings. ⁓ And I remember being pregnant and having a hard time sleeping. And if you further mess with my sleep, can only imagine ⁓ just as a person on Earth how hard that would have been. Pressure is not the same. There's all of these things that happen. ⁓

Arghavan (43:03)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Burgart (43:27)
When Mark Kelly came back from ⁓ spending, I think, a year in space, ⁓ he has a twin brother. And so they did all these studies on what had changed for the person who had been out of Earth. And there's a lot of adjustments that happen when a human being comes back into Earth gravity. ⁓ And so all of these things are bound to impact not only fertility, but the ability to like

gestate safely. in my work as a pediatric anesthesiologist, I see a lot of children and young adults throughout the lifespan where some part of their anatomical development, something in embryology, happened a little differently than it typically happens. And we see what are the consequences of those changes. And it doesn't take a very big change to sometimes cause some really big issues for patients.

Arghavan (43:59)
Yeah, yeah.

Alyssa Burgart (44:25)
And so I just found this fascinating. They were really just putting it in perspective of, you know, there's all of this sensationalism and like, ⁓ you know, sci-fi stuff about having babies and space and whatever. ⁓ But there are some serious questions, serious ethical questions about, you know, maybe that's not a good idea. And do you want to be, you know, if you think about it, let's say,

Arghavan (44:47)
Hmm.

Alyssa Burgart (44:53)
Elon Musk sends people off to the moon to go colonize it. Well, do you really want to be the first person to try to have a baby in space and like find out how bad things could be?

Arghavan (45:08)
Huh, that's interesting. So the paper was about kind of like the ethical considerations for potentially exploring having children in space. That's very interesting. I haven't honestly never really thought about that, but you know, there was, there were those two astronauts who were stuck in space for, what was it, nine months together. ⁓ I don't know if they were of childbearing age, but that's another one of those circumstances where you could be like, ⁓ that might've been interesting. They had explored that.

Alyssa Burgart (45:13)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes, yes,

Yeah. And you know, it's interesting. We don't even know, could someone get pregnant in space? does it, you know, do the sperm wiggle the same way if there's no gravity? Is the egg gonna change? Like, I don't know. Is it gonna go down the fallopian tubes the same way? Will it implant in the uterus? Like, we really don't know.

Arghavan (45:54)
travel the same way, yeah.

But they can study that, can't they study that like at the space center? Don't they have those like zero gravity spaces? Yeah.

Alyssa Burgart (46:07)
In animals,

well, and also you can, you know, they'll send animals up into space and be like, little mice, you making babies? What are those babies like? Mice love to make babies. True. But rabbits take up a lot more space in space.

Arghavan (46:21)
So do rabbits, I hear. That's true.

That's true. Yeah. Well, that's very interesting. Thank you for sharing that.

Alyssa Burgart (46:30)
⁓ yeah,

I just thought like, you know, something totally different.

Arghavan (46:37)
Yeah, yeah, I'm thinking about this little colony on the moon and whether there will be children populating. I mean, I don't even think that'll happen. To be clear, I don't believe anything that means that, but pretty much, I mean, it's mostly aspirational and weird. I mean, remember, this is the same guy who said that, what was that clip? He said something like, we could transform into other species any day now, like if we tried really hard.

Alyssa Burgart (46:47)
Sure, sure.

Arghavan (47:05)
Yeah, not buying that.

Alyssa Burgart (47:09)
Yeah, there's no amount of trying that will turn you into another species.

Arghavan (47:14)
Yeah, I did wonder if he had just recently watched The Fly or something, like where the idea came from.

Cause who would say that? And he was like, well, you know, caterpillars turn into butterflies, so.

as if that's the same thing as like people turning into another.

Alyssa Burgart (47:32)
Sir, you are not a caterpillar and you

are not a butterfly. Mm-mm. And never will be. ⁓ my gosh. Well.

Arghavan (47:38)
And never will be, thank you very much. Anyway, all right, well.

Alyssa Burgart (47:49)
Okay. Let's do take two and call me in the morning. Let's end on a, on some high notes.

Arghavan (47:53)
Yes, absolutely. Okay, so ⁓ I wanna talk about a trend I am noticing that I think is delightful. And this trend is that women are no longer taking men's bullshit. And ⁓ I love to see it, especially because you and I grew up in a time when all sorts of weird behaviors were romanticized in TV and movies, like treating a...

a woman poorly meant that you actually loved her, you know, like all these weird things that we were taught. But this week, one of the things, one of stories that really reminded me that we are not living in that world anymore is this Norwegian biathlete. I don't know if you heard about this, this guy, and I'm not going to be able to pronounce his name. It doesn't super matter, but he wins a bronze medal in the biathlon and he uses his time as an Olympic medalist to say that he cheated on his girlfriend, ex-girlfriend.

Alyssa Burgart (48:35)
Mm-mm.

Arghavan (48:50)
and ⁓ she was the love of his life and he made this terrible mistake and he wants her back and ⁓ that's what he uses his airtime for. They were together apparently for six months, he cheated on her three months in, but now he knows that she was the love of his life and he made this giant mistake. There is a time when people would have looked at that as like a sweet gesture that he was admitting.

that he was wrong and he was, you know, like apologizing publicly. But when I went, I was just curious what the reaction would be. So when I went and looked at videos and posts about this, I was so delighted. It was like comment after comment of get this man off my screen. He is a manipulator. He is narcissistic. This is abusive. He should never have said anything, which is true. He should never have said that. I mean, he erred.

Alyssa Burgart (49:41)
Well, all he's done is he's

put an international spotlight on this woman that he's wronged.

Arghavan (49:49)
And he's put all this pressure on her. That's why, just to be clear, that's why it's manipulative. Because he's telling this story publicly because he knows that will put pressure on her to at least speak to him. I mean, one person was like, you better believe she had him blocked on everything and that's why he did this. And that's very possible. Exactly. And anyway, I was heartened to see that so many people saw right through it. There were some people.

Alyssa Burgart (50:06)
because she is smart.

Arghavan (50:16)
To be fair, there were some people who were like, this is really sweet, he feels really bad. But the majority of comments I saw at least were like, red flag, red flag, red flag, girl run, like do not take this man back. And he did put so much pressure on her that she did have to make a public statement saying, I don't wanna be part of any of this.

Alyssa Burgart (50:33)
Mm-hmm.

I like the, I just looked this up to see if she had responded and ⁓ the quote is, hard to forgive.

Girl, we agree.

Arghavan (50:47)
Yeah.

And now what's also interesting about it is he's now apologized and said, whoops, I shouldn't have done that. ⁓ Because also, does anyone know who won the gold medal in that competition? I don't, because he took all the attention for him and the story with the girl. And I think that he said it was his own teammate who had won gold. Yeah, this is what I'm saying. So really bad behavior, but again.

Alyssa Burgart (51:10)
⁓ God.

Buddy!

Arghavan (51:17)
The point is why I think this is a good news story, string of bad decisions and people saw it and called it out. And that's what I think is different because I think again, many years ago people have been like, she should take him back. I mean, you remember, okay, little side story, but Mike Tyson, there was this ad at the Super Bowl, a terrible ad, terrible from a public health standpoint and terrible also from the fact that he's an abuser and he's not a role model. But anyway, if folks remember back when

Alyssa Burgart (51:18)
⁓ string of bad decisions.

Arghavan (51:46)
we were children, you might be too young even to have remembered this, but he was married to an actress named Robin Givens and they had a very public divorce. Okay, good. And she alleged that he had, that it was a case of domestic violence. She was the bad guy at that time. She was viciously maligned in the press. Did you see what I'm saying? Like we went from that where the victim of domestic violence was painted as the bad guy to now being able to see through

Alyssa Burgart (51:51)
No, I remember.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Arghavan (52:16)
this attempt at manipulating this woman to say, no man, that's not okay.

Alyssa Burgart (52:23)
Although I won't want, don't want to, I don't want to take that from you. So maybe I shouldn't say what I was going to say.

Arghavan (52:29)
It's okay, say it, say it.

Alyssa Burgart (52:30)
Well, I do wonder if the reason that people are able to do that so voraciously is that nobody knew who he was before. But I'm just thinking of, you and I have talked about many times about, ⁓ you know, Amber Heard and how she was really dragged very recently ⁓ for basically being a victim of domestic violence. And ⁓ we still have we have room to continue to grow.

Arghavan (52:42)
Mm-hmm.

Alyssa Burgart (53:00)
But I agree, it is lovely that he was called out.

Arghavan (53:00)
absolutely.

Yes, I'm with you 100%. I mean, the whole conversation we've had today is about how powerful men are not being held to account. So 100 % agree. And yet there are these like little bright spots here and there. And I was just glad to see that people could see through this behavior, which I think we would not necessarily have seen through as clearly 20, 30 years ago. Anyway, what is your recommendation for folks? What would you like folks to take two of?

Alyssa Burgart (53:11)
Totally. Totally. Yeah.

Excellent.

Well, one thing else, just because we were talking about Norway, ⁓ there is this whole movement, you know I'm a knitter, ⁓ we should actually, anyway, there's all sorts of things we could talk about, the crafts, ⁓ but there is this Norwegian hat that ⁓ became a sign of the resistance during ⁓ the Nazi era in Norway, and there's a folk tradition around this hat, ⁓ like a character in Norwegian folklore that's related to.

But people started wearing this hat as a sign of resistance to the point that the Nazis actually outlawed wearing red hats ⁓ in Norway during the war. And so there is currently a resurgence of this hat. It's being called the Melt the Ice Hat. And so I can put the pattern up for anyone who's a knitter who wants to know about the hat. ⁓ Yeah. And there's some cute videos.

Arghavan (54:18)
I love that.

Alyssa Burgart (54:22)
explaining the history behind it and kind of what people are doing now. The things that I had jotted down that are giving me joy is one, there is this ⁓ creator that I found, his handle is at the weighted cape on Instagram and he's in Dallas, Texas. And there's this wonderful video of him giving a sensory haircut to a child who has autism spectrum disorder. And ⁓

Arghavan (54:40)
Mm-hmm.

Alyssa Burgart (54:51)
One of the things that I try to teach our residents and fellows is, when we're taking care of a child who has any sort of sensory difficulty, you know, they don't like the gown, they don't want us to put the monitors on them and things like that. I talk a lot about ⁓ your physical exam skills, how can you use your observational skills to assess the patient without traumatizing the patient, how do you remain calm even if

Arghavan (55:14)
Mm-hmm.

Alyssa Burgart (55:18)
The child is maybe starting to get a little bit escalated. How can you create a calm environment rather than inadvertently escalate their anxiety? And it was just, was so lovely to watch this man give this, and this kid has some long hair. It was like way down over his eyes. And he managed to give him a beautiful haircut. And he's just following him around the room just quickly. It's amazing. This man is brilliant. And he's just so calm. And that man's walking around with scissors.

Arghavan (55:27)
I'm just kidding.

Alyssa Burgart (55:47)
and a comb following this kid around. He has all sorts of like sensory exploration stuff for the kids to use when they're there. Anyway, I just thought it was brilliant. And I'm now going to take this and I'm going to add this video to the training that I do at the beginning of the year with all of our fellows, because I thought it was just brilliant. And I love to see people sharing like there's really great ways that we can change and adjust our behavior.

Arghavan (55:54)
Mm.

Nice.

Alyssa Burgart (56:15)
to make an environment more safe for the people that we care for. So I just loved that. And then I wanted to share something that's just ridiculous because I love something that's absurd. ⁓ my kids and I love to watch, it cake? like I just, it's something that we all got into together and I really enjoy just people who are really good at making complicated cakes. And so I followed ⁓ Gregory Mason as one of the previous contestants.

Arghavan (56:26)
Mm-hmm.

huh.

Alyssa Burgart (56:45)
And I saw that he was making this. He has kids draw a picture of what they want on their cake. And then he makes it. And this kid drew this kid drew a possum ⁓ dancing in spaghetti noodles and trash. And I mean, listen, this is what I love. There's you know what? Whatever the kid wants.

Arghavan (56:52)
Mm-hmm.

What?

Alyssa Burgart (57:09)
And he does this, it's a hilarious job where he he's using all of these different buttercream flavors and like colors and he, he does the image justice and it is hilarious.

Arghavan (57:20)
That's amazing. It reminds me of Ratatouille, even though I rats and possum are not the same. yeah, that's fantastic. Please do. And then actually, since you mentioned that, there is a baking series that I've been interested in lately, which is this woman. I will have to look up her name. I'll put it in the show notes, who's been uncovering lost recipes. So she's a Black woman, and she's talking about Black American recipes that were popular in the past.

Alyssa Burgart (57:24)
Yeah, yeah, Very much. Very much so. Yeah, so we'll put links to those in the show notes.

Ooh.

Ooh.

Arghavan (57:47)
1800s or early 1900s or whatever that you don't really hear about anymore. And she's testing them out to see what was the reason that they fell out of favor and should we maybe bring them back. And so she's doing, I think it's one a day. It's been really, really cool to see. And she gives the history for each one. She gives a history of like when it became popular and how it was being made at the time and what changes led to it falling out of favor. Often it's things like, well, box cake came around or.

Alyssa Burgart (57:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

⁓ wow.

Arghavan (58:15)
chocolate flavoring became easier to access or whatever other trends that happened that led to these shifts. But anyway, I will put a link to that. It's very interesting and also looks delicious. All of it looks delicious. So maybe new and interesting things for folks to try.

Alyssa Burgart (58:16)
Mmm.

Fantastic.

Arghavan (58:33)
Anyway, on that note, that's it for this week's episode. If you didn't like what you heard, this has been The Daily Breath with Deepak Chopra.

Alyssa Burgart (58:33)
Okay.

Arghavan (58:41)
If you liked it, don't forget to subscribe to The Present Illness, leave us a review or a rating, and tell other folks you know to give us a listen.

Alyssa Burgart (58:49)
We know you like us more than Deepak Chopra, we know. ⁓

Arghavan (58:53)
We are not

in the Epstein files.

Alyssa Burgart (58:56)
We are not in the Epstein files. So follow us on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube at The Present Illness to stay on top of all our TPI related news.

Arghavan (59:04)
and we will be back next week with more headlines, hot takes, and doom scrolling, hopefully wrapped in some laughs.

Alyssa Burgart (59:10)
Until then, agitate, hydrate, and take a nap. We'll see you next time on The Present Illness.

Production by Arghavan Salles and Alyssa Burgart, editing by Alyssa Burgart social media by Arghavan Salles, and original music by Joseph Uphoff. Don't take medical advice from random people on a podcast. This show is for informational purposes. It's meant to be fun and it's certainly not medical advice. So please take your medical questions to a qualified professional.


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Alyssa Burgart, MD, MA

Host
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Arghavan Salles, MD, PhD

Host