Replay: The Professor Will See You Now (If they still have a job)

Replay: Academic freedom under attack; viral case of an Oklahoma pre-med student's targets her transgender professor; Erika Kirk's terrible NYT interview; 

Our hosts investigate the alarming trend of politically-motivated complaints against university professors. From Indiana University to Texas A&M, faculty are experiencing acute cases of administrative panic when confronted with student outrage—often resulting in terminal employment outcomes.

• Here’s more about Samantha Fulnecky and the story at the University of Oklahoma
• Here’s more about the instructor (Jessica Adams) who was removed from teaching her class at Indiana University
• Here’s more about the instructor (Melissa McCoul) who was fired at Texas A&M and the findings of the faculty committee that reviewed what happened
• Jennifer Freyd’s DARVO concept - Deny-Attack-Reverse Victim and Offender

💊Take Two and Call Me In The Morning 💊

• Here’s one of Haley Dortch’s videos. You’re welcome!
• Somebody, Somewhere on HBO
• How I escaped MAGA! Critical thinking woke me up.
• Nurse Johnn on being unprofessional
• Here’s Jeff Hiller’s book Actress of a Certain Age

Thanks for listening to The Present Illness! 

Follow us on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube @ThePresentIllness

Credits

• Production by Arghavan Salles & Alyssa Burgart
• Editing by Alyssa Burgart
• Music by Joseph Uphoff
• Social Media by Arghavan Salles

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey there, fellow nerds. It's Alyssa, one of your co-hosts. Argivan and I are taking this week off, so we thought we'd bring you one of our older, most popular episodes. This is episode 11. The Professor Will See You Now If They Still Have a Job, which we initially aired on December 5th, 2025. So for those of you who joined us after that point, welcome and we hope you enjoy this previous episode. It is so disappointing to me for someone to claim that they want to be a physician, that they want to be in a caring profession, and so quickly demonstrate directly to another human being that they don't give two shits about them.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Hey there, fellow nerds. Welcome to another episode of The Present Illness, the podcast where two physicians try to make sense of a world that's a little febrile and definitely, I would say now severely underdiagnosed. And uh I'm Arga Von Salis, a surgeon scientist and your friendly neighborhood doom scroller in residence.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

And I'm Alyssa Bergart, an anesthesiologist and bioethicist who tracks news and health law like their EKGs, full of spikes and surprises. The present illness is where we dig into public health, politics, culture, and ethics with a scalpel in one hand and a meme in the other.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Once again, we want to thank everyone who's listening to this episode or has listened to any of our previous episodes, especially those who have liked us enough to subscribe or follow. We appreciate you so much. Um, and a warm welcome to anyone who just stumbled in from Erica Kirk's atrocious New York Times interview. Wait, what I didn't read this.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

What did she say? Well, I don't blame you because it just happened, but so so and I just want to be hang on. And Erica Kirk is Charlie Kirk's widow, right? Correct. You got it. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

So we're not gonna spend a lot of time talking about this, but I just for context, like the New York Times has this major event. It's called Deal Book. I'm not real sure why Erica Kirk needed to be platformed there. Number one. Number two, they ask her about voters, women in particular, and Zoran Mamdani. She doesn't live in New York, she's not from New York. Interesting choice of question. Now, her answer, though, is really what's it's um almost astonishing. Like she rambles. It's really hard to know what she's saying, except for she seems to be implying that women are choosing to not get married and to rely on the government for even relationship. I mean, it's it's very hard to understand if you're a rational person listening to her and trying to actually interpret what the words she's saying mean. It's a bit of a struggle bus, I'm just gonna be honest. But it's something along the lines of women are using, she's suggesting that women are using the government as a replacement for relationships and support. But also we're we're not having kids. And so presumably we have a career, but then we're relying on the government for support. It's a little hard to comprehend.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Okay, I might just pass on that then. I might just, you read it. I think maybe I can just not read it, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

I I think it is not essential to your understanding of anything in this world unless you're particularly interested in this specific person. But I would like to point out to the New York Times, who um recently asked if women had ruined the workplace. I would just like to point out that there are women who are situated to understand that question and answer it coherently. We do exist. We are out there, some of us have degrees studying gender, and um, and we're available for platforms like that. Um, and that might make more sense. Just saying.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

I love, I love uh an opportunity to platform expertise. Love it. That's right. Well, I didn't read that, but I would I you know what I did read Argivon that I would like to share. We got a really nice five-star review. I thought I would share it with you. Yeah, I'd love to hear it. Okay. It says the also the the title says just what the doctors ordered, which I love because I love a pun. Um the host grace us with insightful commentary, delightful banter, and incisive wit. The present illness shines a light on what's ailing us by just the right with just the right mix of seriousness, compassion, and levity. A real treat to listen to. I mean, thank you. And stop it some more. I love that. So sweet. Thank you so much to um funk Dr. M-E-P-H-D.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Absolutely. Well, we listen, we love a good review. Feel free to write us some more.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

And we would love to read them online. Also, if you don't want to leave it on um Apple Podcast, I added something to Buzzsprout. You can just text us. So, right at the top of the episode, you can it says text us. It's a link. You just click it and like tell us what you think. We would love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Oh, I love that. That's great. All right. Well, Argamon, what do you want to talk about today? Tell me. Okay, so today I I want to talk about something I've been thinking about all week. Um, and it's relevant to both of us in particular, because we work in higher ed, but also super relevant to anyone who cares about, to your point, expertise, getting an education, the value of an education, the value of academic freedom and freedom of speech. Um, and folks may have seen uh this story in various levels of detail. But basically, um, what's happened this week is a student at Oklahoma University, or I believe it's actually University of Oklahoma, even though they go by OU, it's a little confusing. Anyway, at that institution, a student who's a psychology major, who is a junior taking a psychology class, wrote an essay that received a score of zero out of 25 points.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

And um the student, hang on, I'm sorry. Zero? How do you get zero points? Do you not even write your name on it?

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Well, I think if you see the essay, it will become clear. So we we will talk about what's actually in the essay in just a moment, but I will just say that I want to just say before that that what happened was a student, just a big picture. The student got a zero, the student was upset at getting a zero, the student filed a complaint and will try to appeal the grade and then filed a complaint, and then the university removed the instructor from that course. So student got a grade that the student didn't like, and we can we will talk about what's in that essay, and then the instructor is the person who's removed from their job. So the student then um also had gone to their local Turning Point USA chapter, another connection to what we were just talking about with Erica Kirk.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

So just for for folks who don't know, CEO.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Yeah, she's currently the CEO of Turning Point USA, which was the company that um her former husband, um who had who we all know, I think was murdered, he was the person who had founded that company. So now she's the CEO. Anyway, so the uh the student, her name is Samantha Fulnecki. This is all publicly available information. The student had um coordinated with Turning Point USA. So Turning Point USA released, well, the local chapter, I should say, the OU chapter of Turning Point USA. So they had released her essay and also the feedback from the instructor. And this is where it gets really interesting because if you read the essay, I would say the most common response online has been, oh my, I would never, if my writing were that bad, I would not want anyone to see it. And yet she has chosen to make it national news, um, which is a very interesting choice. And um sorry, good.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I just I've heard a little bit about this. Obviously, I don't know as much about it as you, but like I did see I saw part of the essay. I didn't read the whole thing because it was so dumb. Um I'm sorry, I just couldn't. I was like, I feel like I've seen enough. And then I did see the the instructor's response, and I know we'll get into the details, but um like it does this person like do they usually get bad grades? Like, is this a I'm just confused. Like, if you did such a terrible job, like you're just saying, like, she's made it in this national news story. And like I looked at that essay and I can understand why that is the feedback that the public is providing. Um and honestly, I thought the instructor's response, and like you and I, you know, teach a college course, like you sometimes you have to give tough feedback to people and you have to be very specific. And I thought that the instructor's response was actually quite measured and quite professional. So tell us, tell us more.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Okay, yeah, I agree. I think the instructor was quite generous. Okay, here's what I'm gonna say about the essay. So uh by the way, it's worth noting that when the essay first was released, a lot of people thought this was a freshman, right? Because it's like December, you could imagine someone in their first term, maybe not quite understanding how the assignment was supposed to work or something like that. But in reality, when I read, I'm gonna just read a couple sentences. This person is a junior, okay? And I don't know to your question of like, does this person typically receive bad grades? I have no idea. I don't know what their GPA is, but I did see, take it for what it's worth, I did see a TikTok of someone who who says they go to that same university and who says that Samantha is in a sorority that requires maintaining a high GPA. And so presumably, if Samantha has been able to stay in that sorority and is now a junior, that she should have been able to maintain a relatively high GPA, which suggests that either this type of writing has been typically getting better grades or that she's capable of writing better than this. And we'll come back to that. So here's a couple of things that are uh in this essay. By the way, we don't know exactly what was supposed to be discussed, except that it's a reaction to some article they've read that has something to do with gender. And so she says, um, Samantha says in the very first paragraph, God made male and female and made us differently from each other on purpose and for a purpose.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

She also says, Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. But it's a psychology class. Yes, it's a psychology class. Okay, it's not like a like I attended a religious university where we took religious studies courses where it had to do with like biblical interpretation. Like I took classes like that. But that sounds like this is not that kind of class.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

This is not that type of class. And I think she she could certainly have chosen to write about the Bible. Um, from what I understand, based on everything I've read, including the instructor's feedback, I think that would have been acceptable if she had used citations and references, which she does not do. She makes these kinds of statements like the one I just read you, but there's not like a chapter or verse that's cited. There's not a specific.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

So she's like, okay, hang on, excuse me. So she's making biblical claims in a research paper and not even citing the Bible. Yeah. I mean, so she says that she's I mean, that shit's funny. I know.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

So she says I know how to cite a Bible verse. Right. I mean, that's the thing, is like there is a perfectly reasonable way to write a paper that incorporates the Bible, if that's what you'd like to do, but then you should do that. And she's arguing that um she received this grade out of religious discrimination. But even people who I've seen online talking about they teach at a religious school or they went or they went to a religious school, they they studied theology, are like, you couldn't turn this into a religious school either and expect to get a good grade because there's no citations, there's no evidence, there's nothing to support these assertions.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

She goes on to say, I attended a lot of religious school. And I can't, I mean, I got I got a good education. Okay. Like this is fascinating. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

It is more so so she goes on to say women naturally want to do womanly things because God created us with those womanly desires in our hearts. But like, did Joel Webbin help her write the essay? That's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

I would Okay, but but like hang on, hang on. But I have questions for like when she does the rewrite. What's a what's a womanly desire?

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yeah. Isn't that a great question? I mean, I desire equal pay. I desire, as some people have said, smashing the patriarchy. Like that's my womanly desire.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Ooh. My womanly desire is for women to be able to be in relationships without being murdered. Oh, wow. How dare you? How dare I ask you? Okay, so sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Tell me more about our womanly desires as designated by God. I mean, it kind of just goes on like that. She says things like, it it is frustrating to me to read articles like this. And she says things like, well, there's there's lots we could say about the essay, but she, for example, says that um believing that there are multiple genders um is mundane. So she's criticizing her fellow students, saying that they're cowardly and mundane when she is taking a position that is been around for all that has been around for much, much, much, much, much longer. Um anyway, um, she also goes on to say that's just an opinion.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Again, like that's just an opinion. That's not a that's not like a fact.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Right. Correct. It's not a piece of evidence. Um, she also says things like, he created us with such intentionally, not intentionality, but just intentionally and care. Um and then she also says, I strongly disagree with the idea from the article that encouraging acceptance of diverse gender expressions could improve students' confidence. Society pushing the lie that there are multiple genders and everyone should be whatever they want to be is demonic and severely harms American youth. Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Sorry, it's so funny.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Um, until until you realize that I mean I should have mentioned it earlier, but the person she's submitting this essay to is a trans woman. Oh, Jesus Christ. So she's intentionally writing an essay. It is known that the instructor's uh gender.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

She's trolling, she's trolling her teacher. Correct. She's harassing her teacher and then claiming religious discrimination. Correct. That's classy.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Wow. Jeez, Louise. So, to your point about the instructor's feedback, um, the instructor had, I a hundred percent agree with you, been very kind and generous. I'm not gonna read by any means the whole thing, but I'll just read the first couple sentences. Uh, the instructor's name is Mel Kirth. Mel says, please note that I am not deducting points because you have certain beliefs, but instead, I'm deducting points for you posting a reaction paper that does not answer the questions for this assignment, contradicts itself, heavily uses personal ideology over empirical evidence in a scientific class, and is at times offensive. Um, she goes on to say you're more than entitled to your own beliefs, but that's you have to back them up. You have to use evidence. Um, and never mind that the position you're arguing is actually at odds with the majority of the scientific evidence out there. Anyway, um the university. So, you know, people are gonna do what they're gonna do. And this is not the first time we've seen a student going after an instructor even this academic year, which we're only a couple months into this academic year. But these universities, I think, have a responsibility that they are failing to meet. Um, and so the University of Oklahoma, in response to this, put out a public statement saying that they are very concerned about First Amendment rights. Who's First Amendment rights, mind you? Samantha's apparently, but not the instructors. Um, and that they are reviewing the situation. And they say, as previously stated, a formal grade appeals process was conducted. The process resulted in steps to ensure no academic harm to the student from the graded assignments.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

And then, like that's literally, I mean, your academic assignments are the way that you demonstrate your understanding of the material in order to obtain an evaluative grade.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Right. But they are making this Samantha and um her mother, who by the way has defended multiple folks who were involved with January 6th, have made this. There it is. I know. Shocking. Um, they they have made this about her freedom of speech. But the thing is, freedom of speech doesn't give you a right to a grade that you have not earned, right? So Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Oh my God. This is exactly the sort of nonsense about, you know, like this the cancel culture panic. It's like, I'm sorry, you do not have a fundamental right to a good grade. Correct. You you don't. You do not have a right to a good grade. You do not have a right to a grade that is not commensurate with the amount of work that you put into it.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Yeah, with the product that you turn into. You didn't, you literally had an assignment with rules and you didn't do it.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

And I think like I think a question that has been raised that is valid is was this intentional?

SPEAKER_01 17:59

I mean, you telling me that her mom is a lawyer for January 6th, people tells me she planned this shit. I mean, obviously, I am that is my off the cuff opinion. I have no evidence to support that belief. But when I mean, a third-year student who is reportedly in a sorority that requires them to have high grades, and I mean, listen, grade inflation is real, that's a real thing, but like let's just presume that this is generally a good student. And three years in decides she's going to railroad a particular course. I mean, she's a psychology major and it's a psychology course. So this is also a course in her own major. I mean, it just that sounds pretty darn intentional. And it's wild to me also that like a reportedly, let's assume, again, smart person who usually does a good job on their assignments would so explicitly not appropriately do this specific assignment. Like it feels not only spiteful, but it feels intentional. And especially now that I see that there's, you know, a lawsuit coming out about this. I mean, it just feels like she did it on purpose to create this whole fervor. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

I mean, I agree with you. Like, obviously, we don't really know, but I I thought from the first time I read about it, once I learned about the identity of the instructor, that this was an intentional move to specifically target a trans instructor. We know that this administration, the federal government that we have right now, this administration has been trying to eliminate really any race, trans people. And this seems, again, it seems, I don't have any proof. Who knows? But it does seem like it's intentional. And, you know, Samantha has now gone on Fox News. People are talking about like she's kind of following in the path of Riley Gaines, right? Someone who the Riley Gaines, for people who don't know, you know, tied for at fourth in a swimming meet, and one of the people who finished ahead of her was a trans woman. And she's really made this her entire personality. We're talking years later, and this is like most of what she talks about, but she's become this uh right-wing influencer, and so it does seem like this is a way to launch your own career as a transphobic right-wing influencer if you're someone like Samantha. Now, interestingly, I just read yesterday that she's pre-med.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

No, no, no, no. Hang on, hang on, hang on. I can't this person wants to be a doctor.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Apparently, um, this person who called a whole group of people demonic.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Okay, um, a person a person who had the audacity I'm gonna say to troll her instructor for being who they are, who selectively chose to do so in an essay about gender, would like to be in our profession in which I mean I understand that not everyone in medicine is is beyond reproach, of course. But like I got into medicine to take care of human beings, and I didn't get it into it to decide to only take care of human beings who shared my belief system.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

So, um that is horrifying.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

But also, I mean, I don't do med school admissions, but like do you think that like their Google they're gonna Google her and be like, what are you famous for?

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Yeah, it's a great question. I I mean I've done a lot of med school admissions work. I personally did not get in the habit of doing that. Um, but I do think more and more schools and interviewers are doing that, especially as more people are on social media. And certainly, if anyone does Google her, this will come up. The essay itself will come up, this whole story will come up. And I think most medical school admissions committee members would really frown on someone calling people demonic. I mean, as you said, we're here to care for everyone. And it doesn't matter what they look like or how they identify or what they've done in their lives. As physicians, we care for everyone who comes through the door. And, you know, you have to question whether someone like that would be able to do that when they think a certain group of people is demonic. Um I mean, that's quite the word to use.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Um about and I it's just so it is so disappointing to me for someone to to claim that they want to be a physician, that they want to be in a caring profession and so quickly demonstrate directly to another human being that they don't give two shits about them.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Right. That's terrible. And not only that, but like to be actively trying to cause harm to that person, right? That person has been placed on administrative leave. Mel, the instructor, is a, I believe, a graduate student. So this could have really severe consequences for her career. So all for Samantha to get some extra attention. And she, you know, when she's I've read her comments and seen her interviews, you know, she just says, Well, I'm not gonna back down from my beliefs. The problem is not your beliefs. I mean, Mel said it herself. The problem is not your beliefs. I mean, except for calling people demonic, I would say that's crossing a line. But like you can have whatever religious belief you want to have, but if you're gonna write an academic essay, then you need to support your assertions with evidence. And she's insisting that that's never been uh needed for this course and that the the rules have changed in some way because she mentioned her religion. Um, that's the story that she's telling. And she, I just saw last night they she they gave her an award. Like some local politician gave her an award. Like she's already on her way to being the next Riley Gaines.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Infuriating. Um, so I think this is a really great time. I'm always kind of um, I immediately am thinking of Darvo. D-A-R-V-O, something that you and I have talked about many times. Um, Jennifer Frey's concept that, you know, deny, attack, reverse victim and offender. And, you know, this this tactic that is used by abusers to blame the person who has been victimized and make themselves the victim. And it just feels like this is such a classic utilization in an unusual space, right? Like we usually talk about this in terms of um, you know, sexual assault and in sexual harassment and other forms of um of harassment. But seeing it in this way, so interesting how it is that this student has cast themselves as a hero, as a victim and a hero, um, as someone to be uplifted. And you know, what's really wild is I mean, it's Oklahoma. Girl is not the only religious person in this university. Oklahoma's got a lot of religious folks. A lot of evangelicals live in Oklahoma. Like, are you kidding me? It's not about you as like because you have a faith, because you have a faith tradition, even if it is a faith tradition that is apparently perfectly fine with characterizing human beings as demons, um, which is a you know, common I mean, I hate it, but a common dehumanizing tactic within certain Christian circles. Um But I am so I'm so hard um I'm so concerned now about this instructor. Because when you said instructor, I sort of assumed that it was, you know, people who are um not in tenure track roles obviously do not have as secure of a job position in general. But if this person's also a graduate student, I mean, this may really impact their ability to get their PhD or their postdoc or whatever it is that they're working on.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

That's exactly what I'm concerned about. And I don't know if I have it here, but they did have another person, I think it was the co-instructor for the course who also, I don't think I saved it, who also graded the essay, but complet and and completely agreed with the original assessment. Just for the record, you know, they did have a second instructor who agreed with the score that was given. And I will say there's been much debate online about whether she should have been given five points or seven points or something out of, you know, it's the same, friends. Like that's still failing the assignment. Like, if you want to argue that, like, oh, she turned it in, okay. Like participation points, okay, but it's still gonna be an F. Like, there is no way that you can review the rubric and then give this person a score that's anything, I'd honestly give this person a score that's anything that other than an F. Um, and I think part of the conversation, I mean, some folks have been talking about this, uh, the transphobic attack aspect of this, but a lot of people haven't. A lot of people are talking about like, oh, what's the rubric? Was this the right rubric? Should the rubric have been written differently to communicate better? You know, should the should the instructor have, this is also mind-boggling, should the instructor have just given her a better grade to avoid this situation? Like that's what people are arguing online. That's the level of um discourse that we're having because there are so many students who are weaponizing our federal administration's bigotry to go after instructors who are teaching things that they don't like. And so people are saying that maybe she should have just given her a better grade, not because it she the student deserved it, but because then this wouldn't have happened. And I think that's a really scary place to go where we are now saying students should get grades that they don't deserve so that they don't bully their instructors. Like, how do we run? Yeah, exactly. How do we run a university like this?

SPEAKER_01 28:34

But it's but it's so funny, right? Because like when you think about, you know, this person, I guess, is 20 years old, and you I think about the discourse that was happening like a year ago of people or sorry, like 10 years ago, of like, oh, you know, parents are helicopter parents, and there's just too much, you know, coddling of all of these kids and all of their getting these participation trophies, and kids don't even have to work hard enough anymore to earn anything. And it's like, oh, we had no idea how far it would go, folks.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Look at where we are. Look at what's happening. Absolutely. Um, and so I I want to put also this whole situation in the context of what's been happening at other universities, because this is not an isolated incident. I think this one's gotten more attention than some of the other ones. But even just this academic year, there are two other somewhat parallel stories that have played out at other universities. So, most recently at Indiana University, there was an instructor who was teaching a class called uh diversity, human rights, and social justice. Okay, so you can tell based on those words.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Sounds like my kind of class.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Right. What is likely to be covered, right? Social justice, human rights, diversity. Okay, so this was in uh the school social work, I believe. And in one of the classes that was about race and ethnicity and structural racism, the instructor shared a pyramid that includes multiple different aspects of white supremacy. And one of the things that was on the pyramid was MAGA. And apparently a student in the class took great issue with that and felt that that was uh discriminatory. And so complained not to the university, um, but to Jim Banks, who's one of the senators from Indiana. And Jim Banks then went to the university and the dean of the School of Social Work, this is interesting to me, the dean of the school of social work decided to file a grievance on behalf of the student against this instructor. And uh the way things are structured at this particular university, that dean who filed the grievance is also the person who adjudicates apparently whether there was some sort of violation, which is, as you can imagine, concerning to the instructor in question.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

I mean, to be to be clear, that's a gross conflict of interest. Correct. Correct. I mean, and so that's not just concerning, like that's bananas.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah, you're right. Bananas is a good word for it. So this in this case, I would also want to give us give a sense of the timeline. So in this case, that class that was where this pyramid was shown was on September 22nd. And by October 6th, this instructor was removed from teaching that class. Now, the instructor is continuing, as I understand it, um, to teach a few other classes at the institution this term, but they're not teaching that class anymore as this investigation um progresses. But we're investigating whether someone could teach something that was directly related to the topic of the course that they were asked to teach by the university. I just want to make that really clear because you and I have both been in conversations about academic freedom. And it's been clear to me, at least from our legal colleagues, that if you are teaching something that is in your area of expertise, that is relevant to the subject of the class, that is in fact the subject matter of the class, that you are allowed to speak about it. And that is a case where they're sit, they're considering, I guess, whether that's true. Like that's wild. I just imagine being a biology instructor and teaching about evolution and having a student who says, that's not how it happened. The Bible says God created the whatever in seven days. I mean, you can tell I'm not a religious person, but whatever the things are about like how God created the world, and a student could argue, right? They have a right to argue whatever they want to argue, but a student, if the precedent that is being set by these cases is that a student could argue that and then get an instructor removed for teaching the truth about something like evolution. Like I'm sure that sounds wild to some of the folks listening to this, but that is where we are going. Like that is clearly the direction of this line of thinking and where will it stop, right? If we say as someone teaching a class on human rights and social justice can't talk about white supremacy, what other things are we going to say people can't teach about? I just want to add one more example. Sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Well, and just again, you know, and academic freedom correlates in it's not the same as free speech free speech, but it is a very related concept because it has to do with how it is that educators are able to educate people within their scope of expertise. And like it is not lost on me that it is the group that has been complaining over and over again about how, oh, free speech is the pro, you know, we don't have enough free speech. We're not allowed to say whatever we want. Free speech is not being able to say whatever you want. That's not what free speech is. And that's an academic freedom, this idea that they're going to use their free speech to eliminate the academic freedom of a person teaching within their area of expertise. I mean, the snake eats its tail. What are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Right. And I think that maybe people aren't in the general public like connecting these dots to think about what does that mean? If a student can get an instructor removed because they don't like the content of a course, not because it was inaccurate, not because it was like, I don't know, hateful or whatever, but like just because they don't like it, that is a terrible, terrible precedent to set. And students are already kind of consumers, right? They're customers. So universities are already oriented to try to serve those students. I think that's part of why we're seeing this play out the way that it is. But then you're going to start having to, universities are going to start forcing instructors to change what they teach to please students. That is really antithetical to higher education. Higher education is supposed to be about exposing students to new ideas, helping them think critically and helping them expand their horizons. And what we see, like in this case with Samantha, is if she's upset that she's getting a bad grade because she hasn't opened her or expanded her horizons in any way, then what was it that she was expecting to get at a university? Do you see what I'm saying? Like, what is it that that we want? If if students only want to be told the things they already know and to have people agree with everything they already believe, what are they gaining from that education that they are spending thousands and thousands of dollars for? Like, I don't understand that piece of it. That's not the purpose of going to college is not for people to tell you everything you knew before was sufficient and correct. If you felt that way, why would you go?

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

I mean, and I think this is also part and parcel of like a lot of things that have to do with the diminishment of the value of expertise, you know, brought more broadly in society, and the fact that like because universities, I mean, I think there's a lot of criticisms to be made of universities and the rising cost of education and how, you know, it used to be that you could get a job with a high school degree, and that was your ticket to being able to make a living wage and raise a family and like all those things. And then it became that you needed to have a college education in order to do those things. So I think that there's also all of these issues around, uh, like you said, universities treating students as consumers. I think there's a huge problem in terms of using, like, I want feedback from students about what's going well and what could be done differently so that I can improve as an instructor, so that I can do my best work for them. Um, but what I'm not interested in is using those reviews as a way to say, oh, well, now you have to, these people are not pleased because they don't like it. So therefore you have to teach a different class or you have to teach outside of your expertise. Like that doesn't make any sense. Like we've really lost the plot here.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Absolutely. And I just want to add a third example, which happened earlier this year at Texas AM. And this was from a summer course that an instructor had taught. And in September was when it came to light. In this case, the student in the class had recorded the instructor in the middle of a lecture, which I believe when I last look is against the rules of the institution. Like they're allowed to record for their own use, like if it's part of their IEP or whatever, but um not for sharing externally. And the student not only recorded, but then took that recording to a legislator. So again, going outside the university and going to a legislator who then went back to the university. And even the governor of Texas was posting about this on Twitter. I should note that the governor of Oklahoma also has posted about the Samantha Fulneckey case and the importance of freedom of speech. But again, freedom of speech for her, but not for the instructor. Um, and so because of this external pressure from these legislators, the University of Texas AM had originally not intended to punish this instructor for teaching what was supposed to be taught in her class, which by the way, just for for because I think I didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Literally punish a person for teaching what they're supposed to teach.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Yes. And so this person, the recording that was um online, and folks can can look it up, it's easy to find. It was a section where the the teacher was talking about gender, and the student um very clearly on the recording says, Yes, this is illegal. What you're saying is illegal. And she references the executive order from like January, where uh, you know, our president insists that there are only two sexes, which is not even biologically true.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

But that's not how the law works.

unknown 39:01

There's also that.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

But so the student multiple times is saying, like, this is illegal, what you're saying is illegal, you're not allowed to do this, da-da-da. And the teacher actually, like, was again very gracious and said, you know, if this is making you uncomfortable, feel free to leave. You can step out. And the student keeps arguing. Anyway, so that's the basis on which the student was making a complaint that the teacher was talking about gender. And then the university, after the legislators came to them, you know what? I want to, I wanna oh, sorry, go ahead. So mad. So mad. Understandably. So the university fired the instructor and then also removed the chair of the department from being the chair, also removed the dean of the school from being the dean. And then since then, so I have Can you a little pause.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Can you imagine if that's what we did when there were credible accusations of sexual harassment and sexual assault against teachers? Can you imagine if that was the response? Wouldn't that be interesting? I have not seen that generally.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

I have I have thought about this, as you're you won't be surprised to hear. Yeah, there's such a contrast with what happens when students report sexual harassment, sexual assault. Um, and which, by the way, is actually breaking a law, lots of laws.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Yes. Just to be clear.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Yes. And it's actually harmful. It's actually harmful. Like it's not just a grade, it changes the trajectory of people's lives. Um, and yet we never see swift action. In fact, most times we don't see any action at all in those cases. Um what I was gonna say is that at Texas AM, a faculty committee then investigated this whole situation and they reported back to the university president that actually there was no basis on which they should have fired this individual. Um, then the university had given three different reasons for her firing, and they were like, no, none of these is valid, not a single one. Um, and the president apparently still gets to do whatever they want. So they are reviewing this information currently, is my understanding. Um, it was their Committee on Academic Freedom, by the way, that had done this review. So the reason I wanted to share that is that again, this the situation with Samantha Fulnecki, I'm glad is getting a lot of attention, as it should. And it's not the only one uh only situation in which a student is attempting to get their instructor removed. Mel is the only trans person of these three instructors that I'm aware of. Um, and so that's a new layer to this latest um case. But all of these are attempts by people who don't agree with certain perspectives to remove the faculty teaching the those perspectives from the institution altogether when they could choose to just not take those classes, right? That's pretty easy. Just don't take that class.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

I mean, and again, you know, and it's so interesting because I feel like this is ultimate thought policing. Like I'm as like as a student, I need to police the ability of other people to utilize critical thinking skills. That's bananas.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Absolutely. Absolutely. But what is what does that mean for higher education? That's the thing. Like, what does any of what do any of our institutions stand for? What are they offering students if it's the students who can determine what gets taught?

SPEAKER_02 42:29

What service are we offering? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Well, but it also shows like why, you know, I have colleagues that are like, well, you know, I'd love to teach a class about this, you know, abortion, or I'd love to teach a class about uh, you know, gender, but like I know that it'll be they have to worry about who's gonna enroll. You have to worry about if you're gonna get trolled by your own students. I mean, it's just it's depressing. Like we should be able to have and and obviously, like there are also classes where there's gonna be opinions that you think are wrong, and you should be able to make critical arguments in response to those. So again, like if you want to make a critical argument and you want to ground it in evidence, wonderful, do it. That's part of the practice.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Absolutely. I mean, I I hope it's clear that neither of us is arguing that students have to agree with everything their instructor says, because that's definitely not what we're saying. But there has to be, oh no, the whole point of these courses is like to teach people argumentation and to teach people how to have a respectful conversation across these differences and to use, in the case of the psychology class, to use pieces of evidence to support the argument, right? It's not just like I've been using this example recently with RFK Jr., like I think the sky is brown if you're RFK Jr. And then scientists are like the sky is blue, and people are like, oh no, I don't know what it is. Is the sky brown or blue? Well, yeah, actually we do know. We very much do know that the sky is blue. And we have no obligation to pretend that him saying it's brown is somehow like accurate or valid. It is not. He doesn't have any evidence to support that assertion. He could not write an essay defending the position that the sky is brown, right? But there are other things where yeah, you could have a difference of opinions totally valid. And as long as you can provide evidence to support your position and help make your argument, then that can be a very well-written paper that would receive a good grade in a class, even if you disagree with whatever.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

The emperor has no clothes. The emperor has no clothes.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

This is absurd.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

It's just, and it's so I'm so disappointed for the people in this class who did the assignment, right? Like they've now, they now don't have this instructor. They are not getting the opportunity to learn what they would have learned. And, you know, and again, having, you know, I was I was raised in a very religious household. I attended religious schools all through, I mean, I I went to junior college that was secular, but I went to religious elementary school through high school. I went, I attended a religious medical school, I attended a religious undergraduate school, my undergraduate school was Jewish, my medical school was Catholic. Um you know, there's lots of people who believed a bunch of stuff that I don't believe. Like that's that's not the problem. I mean, I have a problem when when we are in caring professions, such as psychology, medicine, nursing, you know, I do have a problem with people who characterize other human beings as somehow unworthy of dignity, care, and love. Like that I have a problem with. You believe whatever you want about whatever about the Bible um and your interpretations of the Bible. And like you can believe those things for yourself, but your beliefs should never harm your patient.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

That's right. I mean, we talk about that a lot with abortion, right? Like if you if you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one. Well get one. But what right does anyone have to tell someone else what to do with their body? We don't we don't have a right to do that.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Um well, it's only freedom for some people, Argivon.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Well, I mean that that has never been, well, maybe not never, but in my lifetime has not been more clear.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

Well, you know, Argivon, I think it's time we we've decided to to to give our little segment about joy. We've been saying what brings you joy, but we were talking, we're gonna start calling it take two and call me in the morning. Um, because it's not always necessarily joyful, but it's usually something that we are getting entertainment from or or sometimes joy, but sometimes like you had one that was like kind of scary, but it was still cool. So we're gonna call it Take Two and Call Me in the Morning. So this is the first one, and I'm so excited. So, Argivon, what do you recommend for our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Okay, I came across someone who had who needs many more followers. So I'm gonna tell you, we'll put a link in the um show notes. Her name is Hortch, H-A-L-E-Y, D-O-R-T-C-H. And I just like randomly came across her yesterday when I was scrolling on TikTok as I do. And she's super talented. Okay. This is a person who has an incredible singing voice, number one. Number two, she is hilarious. Like her whole stick at this moment, anyway, she has a relatively new account, I think, is she acts like she's a specific celebrity singer or uh like Adele or Celine Dion or Winnie Houston or Lady Gaga, but she's like in her kitchen, looks like she uses like a Swiffer as her microphone stand. And um, and she yeah, and she has like, she'll set the scene a little bit with just some text on screen. Like so for Adele, she's singing, you know, one of her heart-wrenching songs, and the text on screen says something about like her mom. It's every time it's that her mom has asked her, aren't you lonely? Like her, Haley, aren't you lonely living alone? And she writes back, No, what are you talking about? I'm giving a stadium performance as I'm going through this terrible, heartbreaking breakup. What do you mean? And then she's like, she puts her um headphones in her ears, like they're those um, I guess whatever microphones or no, sorry, speakers that people, artists will have. I mean, I'm not you can tell I'm not a musician, but you know, they have those like earpieces that help them to figure them out. Yeah, yeah. Um, and so they're called Yeah, what are they called?

SPEAKER_01 48:27

In-ear monitors.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

There you go. She uses her headphones as like fake in-ear monitors, and she'll she'll like touch them. Sometimes she takes them out because she's like, I need to hear better or whatever. You know, like maybe she doesn't say that, but you because you'll see our artists do that sometimes when she's doing it just like with her little headphones. And um, and then she's like, for that one, she's just like super emotional as she's singing. Um, in other ones, she is like one of them, she um does that song from the movie that Lady Gaga did with Bradley Cooper. Um and it's the first performance of Shallow on stage. So she's like, What do you mean? I'm my boyfriend just asked me to give this performance on stage to a stadium full of people. It's my first performance. And so she like starts out very like anxious and not sure what she's, you know, that not super confident by the end of the song. She's like, yes, like full rock star mode. And you know, she'll like look out into it, pretend like she's looking out into an audience. And she'll anyway, it's amazing. I just love her vibe, and also she's got just an incredible singing voice. So she's actually singing these songs. She's not lip syncing, but she's singing these songs and then doing this whole like acting around, you know, in trying to embody some specific feeling. Um anyway, she's fantastic. Hayley Dortch, we'll put a link in the show notes. Yeah. So what do you think people should test out or try out?

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Okay, well, so I had already I had already put in our little notes to each other that I wanted to talk about somebody somewhere, which is just a lovely, lovely show. I forget, I think it's on HBO, um, but it's about a woman living in Kansas and sort of her, she's she's moved back home to care for her sister who died. And and you're the the show sort of starts in the aftermath of her sister dying. There's three seasons. I've just been catching up on the latest season, and it's just it's a beautiful show. It's very tender. She's actually a singer as well, and that's a through line that comes through this, is how she's like really been wanting to really find her voice literally and figuratively, I would say. Um, and I love to sing, so I enjoy seeing that that aspect of it. Um, but the other thing that I was realizing, I was thinking about a couple of things when we were talking earlier, which is that um the YouTube algorithm in all of its glory sent me a video that I just I it it dragged me in. I was cooking and it just started playing, and I was like, oh, well, now I'm hooked and I have to watch this whole thing. And it was a uh right-wing YouTube influencer who has left the MAGA cult. Um, and she was very afraid to like be public about it, it sounds like. And then when she started talking about it more, she realized there was a lot of interest in people who have been really deeply committed to MAGA who are seeing things differently now. And um, and I, you know, I totally was into it. I I enjoyed hearing her story. And she talked about how um her public school education, where she learned about critical thinking, was really important. She was raised, um, I and I apologize, I don't remember her name, so I'll I'll find the link and put in the show notes, but she was raised um, you know, in a very profoundly Mormon household and um in a very Mormon community and got married very young, ended up finding out that her husband was cheating on her and left him and then switched church and like she went through this whole thing that like the evolution ended up being that she was like, wow, I believe I have been trained to believe a lot of things politically that I don't think are in alignment with who I am and who I want to be. Um, and that that led her sort of out of out of the cult, which I thought was really interesting. Um and then a third thing that I'll share just because we you talked very I can't help myself. You alluded earlier to, you know, the government say, you know, not wanting to give loans to certain people. And and I can only assume that that was in reference to um nursing, advanced degrees in nursing no longer being considered professional degrees and having that removed from uh, you know, the ability to get federal loans. So they you may or may not be able to get those loans depending on who the loan servicer is. And so there have been so many. There's this guy named Nurse John who like, I don't love all of his videos, but there's a lot of them I love. And he has made some hilarious videos about how he's like, well, I don't have to be professional anymore. And he always is like dressed up as like different characters of nurses, and it's really funny because you know, he's like twerking and he's like, I don't have to be professional anymore. And like he's um, he's he's making the pay, he's like, he always shows himself like opening a door as though he's going into a patient room and he's like insisting that the patient tips him, like like when you go to a restaurant and you like have to click which tip you're gonna give. And he's like, No, I'm not a professional anymore. You got a tip. Like it's just funny. So I'm gonna I'll put a link to that in the show notes because I I just thought it was so funny. I mean, nurses are doing such incredible work. We cannot have healthcare without nurses. The idea that they're not professional is is bananas. And so this this video though, like really captured like the just the absurdity that nurses are now having to face this quote this accusation that they're not professional. It's it's hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

Yeah, nurses, teachers, occupational therapists. I think a lot of people are on that list and it's deeply offensive. I did want to just say for somebody somewhere the actor who plays her friend, you know, the tall guy with the glasses, that's a connection, throwback to our last week's episode because he's also on Pleuribus.

SPEAKER_01 54:08

That's right. I did see him on Pluribus, and I I love him. He's fabulous. He he really is. He has like has a book, I forget if it just came, I haven't read it. I can't remember if it's come out yet or not, but he has a book that if it hasn't come out, it's coming out soon. That's all about like spontaneously becoming famous after being a working actor for decades and decades and like suddenly being super famous. I think I'm I'm curious because I think he's so fun. He is.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

He seems like a really lovely person. All right. Well, we've we've talked a lot. That's it for this week's episode. If you didn't like what you heard, this has been the Tucker Carlson Show. If you liked it, don't forget to subscribe to The Present Illness. Leave us a review uh to and tell your friends and neighbors and whoever else you run into uh to give us a listen as well.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

You can follow us on all the places. We are on TikTok and Instagram at the present illness, and you can stay top of on top of all of our TPI related news. We'll be back next week with more headlines, hot takes, and doom scrolling, of course, hopefully wrapped in some laughs. Until then, agitate, hydrate, take a nap. See you next time on the present illness. And I wanted to say our new music that we have, um, we're gonna have a credits section now. Our new music is from Joseph Upoff. Um, I do the editing, Argivon and I do the producing together, and Argivon runs all of our social media. Don't take medical advice from random people on the internet, including your podcasts. This show is for informational purposes, it's meant to be fun, and it's certainly not medical advice. So please take your medical questions to a qualified professional.