S2 Ep2: Appreciating Appreciation – discussing The STAY Report with Perry Timms

In this special episode, Host Tsvetelina Hinova is joined by globally recognised HR thinker Perry Timms to unpack their newly launched co-authored STAY Report - and why it’s set to change how we think, talk about, and apply appreciation at work.

Together, they explore a simple but overlooked truth: You don’t have a choice about appreciation, you’re sending signals either way.

We cover:

• Why organisations are never neutral - your culture is shaped by the signals you send every day 
• The hidden cost of silence (and how it slowly erodes trust and performance) 
• Why appreciation isn’t a “nice to have” - it’s infrastructure for performance, trust, and retention 
• How employees are constantly “scanning” for what gets noticed - and what gets ignored 
• The real reason engagement drops (hint: it’s not sudden - it builds quietly over time) 
• How to shift from “doing appreciation” to “being appreciative” 

About the STAY Report

The STAY report reframes appreciation as a system of Signals that influence Trust and Attachment, and shows how to develop your own appreciation infrastructure – Your way. 

It combines science, real-world insights, and practical questions to help leaders bring appreciation into the boardroom—and make it actionable.

Download the STAY report and start thinking and talking differently about the signals your organisation sends: https://www.thankbox.com/business/stay-report?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=launch-show&utm_campaign=stay-report

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Welcome to Lead with a Bang! In season one, we explore why appreciation matters at work. In season two, we're going a step further. Because believing in appreciation is one thing, but making the case for it inside your organization is another. In each episode, I'm speaking with leaders and practitioners who have to justify appreciation in business terms, tying it to retention, performance, culture, and real business outcome. If you've ever struggled to get buy-in, budget, or belief from the leadership team, this season is for you. Today's Lead with Thanks episode is slightly different. We're still talking about appreciation, but this time we're diving into something that we were very, very excited about, and that's appreciating appreciation. The Stay Report, which got launched last week. The report was produced by the phenomenal Perry Teams and the Brilliant Sandbox team. And the aim of the report is to um to change how organizations think and most importantly talk about appreciation. We're aiming to give HR professionals the language that they can use to bring appreciation into the boardroom and to make it from a nice to have into a strategic lever. Welcome to lead with thanks. It's an honor to have you and thank you so much for all the help. And I'll just pass it on to you. Can you introduce yourself to us and tell me why? Why did you say yes when I approached you? What were you hoping to achieve for the report?

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Oh, lovely introduction. I mean, it is sort of those things when I talk to people like my dad, who used to work in a shoe factory and then he used to dig up roads and lay gas mains about the work I do. And he's like, I just don't understand what that means and looks like as work. But I know for a fact, even somebody like my dad, if he was given appreciation for the work he did, it meant a lot to him. So let's just say that the calling for this kind of report is the fact that we know that what we do in work is fulfilling for us. But when somebody else recognises it, oh my goodness me, the kind of impact it has is so lasting. Anyway, so a little bit about me then. So um I've been in the HR world now, I'm in year 24, so that's a long time. And um prior to that, I used to work on projects uh to do with technology and administration and so on. But throughout my career, I guess I've sort of plotted a few examples where people have offered up to me some appreciation for what I've done, either for them or for the work that we're doing. And it's almost like they are indelible marks in my mind. So um when when people talk about work and careers, they often use words like expertise or guru and stuff. And I just say I'm just an enthusiast about the work I do. But enthusiasm will only last so far if people don't sort of recognise what that enthusiasm leads to. So I'm always interested in the impact of the work that you do, and so that's maybe statistical analysis, that may be some kind of outcome that you can pin evidence to. But what matters is when people say to you that made a difference to me and to other people. So yeah, so I've always looked at work through that sort of lens that it is about being appreciated for the difference and the impact that you make. But I think specifically, I think this sense of appreciation is something where and thanks and recognition, it it almost feels like it's a little bit like what in in business you have to do that kind of stuff. Don't you just do that outside of business? I'm almost like, I think you're missing the point. It's a kind of problem hiding in plain sight, right? That that that that this this thing, this phenomenon, whatever you want to call it, is where we've built models around performance and productivity and engagement. But there's something about like a low-cost driver that we can really tap into, which is that appreciation should actually be a kind of leadership priority, a kind of manifestation of the system that you're in and the culture that you have, and just this bond, this relational connection between people. I think there's something that we're missing that we think about it as a nice to have. And it's like, oh my word, it feels so important to us that we ought to look at it as infrastructure, but it's a system of signals that ultimately shape our behavior, our performance, and then ultimately things like cost and impact. So so getting asked to do that by you and putting something like this in a frame that's like business people, you are missing a trick. That was a really, really nice invitation.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Oh, you you put it so nicely, and and you're so right. Whether you are intentional or not about appreciation, it's there.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

What signals are you choosing to send? That's where you get in, that's where you can influence it, that's when you can create an impact and ultimately choose which way your organization or culture is gonna go, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:26

And and so you had the idea for this. So I suppose there's something in my mind of a question. What were you hoping people would walk away thinking differently about from having a report that distills all this and brings it immediately to their attention?

SPEAKER_01 5:42

That's a really good question. Do you know? I've I've been thinking about it for a long time. There's there's a lot of data out there about appreciation. There's a lot of research that's been done, and it's really unanimous. It really shows the power of appreciation. And yet it's still seen as a nice to have, despite all the data, despite all the information that's out there, for some reason we still can't get it through to the board and convince them that that matters. So I've I mean, with Tankbox, we've spoken to hundreds of organizations, thousands of organizations, and there's always the problem of like, how do I describe these this to the to the management team? How do I show them the meaningful impact of this? And it seems like just showing them the data doesn't necessarily cut through. What you need is you need to understand the deepness of it. You need to understand that by choosing not to have it, you're still making a choice for your organization. And you need to have the right language to relate this to your board. So, what I really, really wanted is to give a different perspective, a different way to explain appreciation to the management team, to the board, to the board level, and to your team, really, because even as a staff member, you are sending signals as well. Everybody's saying sending signals within the organization. And when you all come together and send the right signals, then that becomes a powerhouse, really, within your team. Um, and for me, that was that that was where I was I was stuck, and that's where the report helped me. And then I really wanted it to be practical. Yeah, I wanted it to be easy to digest, I wanted it to be practical, I wanted to have lots of examples and lots of things that we've got because the way the report is structured, we've got the theory, we've got the science, we've got um all the information there, but at the same time, we've got a lot of practical questions that you can ask yourself for your organization. Like, where do we stand? What do we need to do? Questions to get you to think outside of the box, outside of the norm that appreciation is just kept, you know, as a nice to have, or when you have time, or it's like when you feel nice yourself, and drop all of that information, all of that chat that you're telling yourself, maybe, and move towards like okay, that it's not about appreciation, it's about the signals that I'm sending to my organization. Um and I think we've really managed to to achieve that. Um, and I actually I actually have it here. Oh look at it. It's pretty printed, ready to go to everyone. To so many people, I really, I really genuinely believe that we're gonna have um a great, a great impact. People are gonna have a lot to take away from it.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Um, and and yeah, but I guess my next question for you is like, what surprised you the most? Obviously, you you care deeply about appreciation, you've been in the field, you preach it, you're amazing at preaching a few course and showing appreciation. But what what surprised you when you dived into the details of it and the science and I think you've just made me think about two things actually that do link to that question.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

And the first is like in the sporting arena, we often have very high-performing teams, and we think it's about fitness and tactics and the coaching they get and so on. But actually, what you look at in a team like that is that they have this kind of kinship where they have to kind of live off the appreciation of each other because they are playing different roles at different times, supporting each other to combine to create that winning team formula. And I don't think we even tag that as appreciation, but I think it is because if you're in a team environment, you're thinking, I am glad I've got these other four or ten people with me, not on the opposition, you are by nature already appreciating them. And then I think if you're having a bad game, if they kind of come and put the hand on the shoulder and go, look, we all have them, let's just work together on the you know, all that sort of stuff makes such a difference to an athlete's potential to perform at the top of their game that it's sort of like thinking, that's appreciation, right? Um and then and then the second point I think is the perhaps the uh before I go into the detail of the answer here, almost like how we have sort of routinised appreciation in things like when we try and bring children into the world and teach them the way of the world. We don't when they fall over when they're trying to walk, we don't criticize them, do we? We kind of encourage them and show appreciation for the one step that worked. And it's almost like why why did we suddenly turn that down when we're in a workplace when we know that punishment and critique is sometimes really quite fear-inducing. Um so there was definitely the science bit in it, but here's how I think this report helped me come up with two major things that surprise me, and and people will probably have underestimated them like I did. The first is how non-neutral organizations are. People don't experience work like you said, they interpret it through signals. So, actually, whatever if you think you're not a nasty organization, but you're not very good at appreciation and recognition, that's a signal that you're not non-neutral. You know, there's something about you, yeah, you are playing into either positive or negative impacts of that. So I think that's a real strong thing to say. You know, you're never passive in this, there is always a signal to come through. So I think that was absolutely like a powerful thing for me, going, wow, if we think it's not important, then do you know what? It won't be important, and nor will people. Um, the second thing I'm thinking is that it's linked to that is actually, I think we underestimate the cost of silence. When people do dramatic, extraordinary things, you know, they stretch themselves, they show care and support for customers and their colleagues and so on. And and and and we don't we stay silent about that. There's something really gradually damaging to that, that people then do that less. They care less, they consider less, they they stretch less. Because they're not getting that tiny little bit of recognition or stimulation for when they do go into extraordinary territory. So I think it's that. I think it's that um, you know, that that helps people kind of disengage in a way that that probably we don't recognise. And eventually that just starts to evaporate because you're never topping it up, you're never realizing, you're never recognizing. So this silence thing is actually really quite dangerous, and that came out from the report. So those two things, just the non-neutrality of it and the silence, we're like, whoa, I bet there are lots of companies going, oops, that's us.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Yeah, because a lot of a lot of companies are saying, Oh, we don't have that issue, like we don't need to, you know, uh incorporate appreciation or anything like that, and ultimately they don't realize that that's a decision, you're making that decision right now that you're gonna move into the negative side of it where you're not sending the right, yeah, you're not sending the signals that matter to your organization. I really enjoyed the example with sports that you gave earlier because trust and attachment, yeah, they're all starting with the signals, and that's exactly what we talk about in the report, the stay report. It's the signals, the trust, attachment, and done your way. Yeah, and I think that's exactly it. We don't have to even phrase it as appreciation, we can just think about it in this order, like the signals you send, they create the trust. And it doesn't have to be just thank you, but it could be as you said, like when you're when something's not gone right to show you that you can trust me, yeah, you're not in trouble, we can sort it together. Yeah, we you know, we are a team. When one makes mistakes, we're all in it. When one wins, we're all in it. Yeah, I mean you know that appreciate that everybody says, but it's so true, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 13:35

The social nature of us, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah, and I love that, and you're absolutely right. I think a lot of people are focused on the decision are we gonna do something with appreciation or not, or are we actually you don't have a choice actually in the matter. You have to do it, or you're sending the wrong signals to your team, and the cost is um is huge. And I think one thing that we have in the report as well is that a lot of people wait for the engagement survey to find out if there's a problem and then react to it. Yeah. When ultimately it's building up, it's never rapid, it's never loud, it's never uh with a bank. It kind of builds up slowly, the trust starts to erode when you're not sending the right signals, and then the attachment starts to erode, and then you get the engagement surveyed, or worse, you get the recruitment call and your team members gone by that point.

SPEAKER_03 14:27

That's so true, isn't it? And so the acronym of stay is really relevant, isn't it? Almost like why do you stay here? And how can we create an environment where staying here is actually a pleasurable choice and so on. And I think there's something you just hit on there that I really like. It's almost like we we we tend to, and I mean we generally tend to think about appreciation as something that you do, but it's something that you're being, you're being appreciative, you are being thankful, and that being goes way beyond doing because if it's doing it feels a bit academic or throwaway or cliched. But if you're being it, there's something almost like, wow, I really felt that. So I think you're onto something about the emotional, psychological side of things that actually, again, we don't talk about enough yet. We do when things start to creak under the pressure and the stress and intensity, and then we think, how can we put this right? It's like, well, you should have moved that conversation further left a long time ago because you've not been being appreciative, supportive, kind, recognizing, thankful, and so on. So um you're absolutely right about all of those things that that that break it down. But but out of all that, because there's a lot, right? I mean, this report covers a lot, and that's what I really like about it. It's comprehensive, it's like the go-to on all of this. What's the kind of one thing that you're taking away from the report? And then a sort of supplemental question on that. What do you think people are getting wrong about appreciation today? So, what one thing are you taking away, and then what are people getting wrong about it?

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah. Um, I'll start with the wrong thing because that's um that's something that I find really fascinating. And one thing that we actually see in fangbox a lot is that appreciation lives in pockets, it's left on on the personality of the manager or whether they feel they've got the time, etc. And that's actually the being versus doing appreciation is really important because when the minute you say doing, you're immediately, oh, but I've got so much to do, have to do that as well. Where if you're being appreciative, that's your personality, that's yourself, that's when you feel like, well, that's just I'm just being authentic, me by being appreciative. And I think that's a really big shift there. But when we leave it on the depending on a manager or a team, what that does is it creates a big disparity between teams. You're sending different signals um from your organization, and the way people feel about your organization is quite fragmented, so they don't know if this organization being appreciative or is this appreciate organization if it doesn't care about any of my achievements or how I help, etc. And I think that's a really bad signal because you can't that ruins the psychological contract that you've got with the organization. You're suddenly feeling like, well, I don't know where I belong here. Am I being appreciative? Am I helpful? Do I have value? Um, do I mean anything with this organization? I think this is this creates a lot of distrust between teams, it creates a lot of tension between teams. And it's one of the things that always, always comes up in my conversations with organizations, especially like talking about implementing tank books, etc. It's really important that we we we introduce infrastructure into our organization that helps us manage that disparity and doesn't leave it to chance. It encourages people uh to happen in the moment. It's really important that we don't wait um months and months for approvals, etc., to share a simple appreciation. It's really important that it happens in the moment. So there's impact, you know why you're being appreciated, you know what's the behavior that's being appreciated and recognized, and you repeat that. Um, so these are the two things in the moment and in and don't leave it to chance, don't leave it to people to remember, just build infrastructure around it. And it doesn't have to be complicated or big program or expensive or anything like that. It could be simple. People don't need more complexity in their life, to be honest. I think there's complexity enough, especially with AI and all the changing worlds, but simplicity, something that can work in the moment and help you remember, yeah, um, is really important. And I think that's why we've got the why in the report as well. Make sure you make it your own one, something that fits your something that fits your organization. Don't try and copy. You can get inspiration, of course, from other people, but go and be thoughtful about what your people care about, be intentional about your people. So if if they are, I mean, I give this example a lot, but if they care about salmon, we've got a salmon company that uses all the salmon references. But if they care about the salmon and the environment, go and introduce appreciation combined with that. Be creative, be um understanding of what your people care about. And I think that's the why in the report is is why it's so important to me as well. Um, is that it really makes you think about your own case, your own people, makes you being thoughtful and intentional when you're introducing appreciation. So I guess that's like the things that I think people get wrong. And I think that people should really take away uh from from the report, alongside what you say about the silence. This is like mind-blowing. I think so many people overlook that. Yeah, and we get so caught up into the data without realizing, oh, wait a minute, I've been sending the wrong signals for years in my organization. So um yeah, so it's um yeah, yeah, it's um it's it's incredible the the different how the minute you change the way you think about appreciation and what it can bring for for you and your organization. But and I guess we talk a lot about signals and what they mean, but what does that mean day-to-day for our work? Like why is it such a powerful signal? How can we see it in our day-to-day um life?

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Yeah, you um you you picked on some lovely things there. I I really want to pull on that thoughtfulness thread because you know, we often talk metaphorically about the organization being a machine or a brain, because it kind of is like you know, a high intellectual organization that's doing research is a thinking organization, one that's producing stuff is a mechanical machine, but so many organizations are that plus the characteristics, the personality, and the supportive environment for people, whatever their sort of major metaphor is. So I think there's something in that thoughtfulness, which is can you really describe your organization, not just the people in it, but the organization's overall essence as being thoughtful? And if you can, but I think that's likely so strongly linked to it being appreciative and recognising because that those two things almost seem to be the direct consequence because they feed each other and they sort of manifest in that way. But there's a couple of other things I want to pick up in in that lovely answer you gave there. One is how confusing it can be for people when it is down to individual characteristics and traits because they get it in one situation, then they move to something else with a different leader or colleagues, and they don't get it. They're like, Well, I'm not any different, so why is this now not an appreciative environment? And and that can make them think, oof, am I not performing very it can have all sorts of doubts in their mind because that tension then comes from the mixed experience and the signals that you talked about. So it it cannot be this blanket academic perfunctory thing. The genuine side of things has to come through because otherwise people pick up very quickly. Confusing signals in that respect there. Then I think you also picked on disparity and the context as being crucial. When things are really hot and intense, guess what? The last thing you probably think about is showing appreciation for people. But when it is hot and intense, that's probably the time it means the most. Like, wow, you didn't have to do that because we're hyper busy. But wow, you took the time to say thank you for doing that. Wow, that can have a double, if not 10x effect, because it almost feels unexpected in that context. And we just don't think in that way systemically because that's not thoughtful, is it? That's just machine-like production at any cost. So um I I really love all that. And I think if we talk about it as a tension rather than something we're doing wrong, we are creating tensions unnecessarily rather than doing wrong. That almost feels like we can almost not have to have a confessional about it, but we can just answer the call that that tension is telling us needs resolution.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

You're quite right, and it's it's quite nice to know that we can solve it as well. It's in our power, it's not outside of our power. And I I love the fact that you say um what happens when you're very busy. And that's exactly one of the questions that we added, you know, at the end of the report where we talk about what questions can you ask yourself to help. That's exactly one of it that we've added. Like, what happens in your organization when it's really busy and really hot on you on your head? So I'm really, really important question. What happens then? Is everything dropped? Does everything disappear?

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

It's it's crucial to ask. It is, isn't it? And I guess oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

No, go, no, no, go.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

I was just gonna ask, like, um, how do you see this playing out day to day? Well in terms of the signals, what happens day to day in an organization? What should we looking for?

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Yeah. I think this is where we can bust the myth that people go, oh, it's all these needy individuals who want constant feedback and all that kind of thing. It's like, no, it's not, no, it's not, because whether we express a need or not, every single day that we're at the helm in some shape or form of work, we are absolutely scanning for what gets noticed, what gets ignored, what gets followed up. That helps us understand like what is really going on here. So these kind of micro things, we're always picking them up. I suppose in a social setting, we're thinking, Am I safe? Am I in a place where actually other people will sort of recognise that I might need some help or or whatever? Um, so it's not an unnatural instinct at all, but there's something about the variations that we would feel when we're doing that constant scanning. You know, let's say we've had a very attentive and appreciative colleague or manager up to recently, and then we move into a different environment, and that's not the case anymore. We're scanning and we're not picking them up. Now that's creating a bit of interference in our mind and psychology. So then we're sort of starting to think, oof, I I sort of fill in the blanks with things like almost, well, clearly I'm not having the impact I should have, and maybe I got that wrong. And should I speak up there? Or so we've got lots of confusing dialogue inside us. And I mean, this is literally happening every day, every hour, but we kind of don't always tag it because we're kind of going through the motions, we're filling in a report. I mean, I just had a piece of work I did for a client, and it was pretty complex and pretty sophisticated. And I sent it off and they had a chat and then they wanted to get on a call for me. And my first instinct was, have I got that wrong? Have I gone too far with this thing? But actually, no, what they said is like, wow, how did you make this happen? From the conversation we had. I'm like, oh, actually, so they appreciated it. It was perhaps a little bit too engineered in some places, and they've now decided on how to split that work up. But it was almost like, wow, I didn't get a negative reaction at all. I actually got some appreciation for the fact that I tackled a very complex thing and delivered a very complex product. But that just shows you we fill in the blanks until we get that feedback. And even if they said, Well, it's not quite what we wanted, but we appreciated your effort, I still would have been okay with that. So uh happens all the time, uh Svetalina. And I think there's there's something again about silence. When it is, we just fill it in with the wrong kind of stuff. Um, we don't tend to think, oh, no news is good. We don't think that at all. We think I haven't got any feedback on that. It must have been crap. I better run away and not talk about it ever again. It's like, oh, that's so damaging to people. So I think that's how it shows up every day in a meeting where somebody is talking about something and you think, oh, I've got something to add here, and you're like, I'm not sure I'll get that appreciation for putting this in the mix because that's not happened before. Guess what? You hold back. That one thing could have changed the direction of something to be majorly important versus a bit mediocre. So we talk ourselves out of things all the time because we don't get that sense that it's going to be appreciated. That's how it shows up day to day for me.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Oh, I I love that. And it's interesting what you said that our brain goes to the negative almost. If you if you've not gotten the clear sign or signal of what you're doing right, like immediately we assume the negative thing, and that becomes kind of narrative that we're telling ourselves. That's it's it's difficult. We should be giving more clear signals. And I think clarity here is really important as well. Um, to be clear what what the signal is, not just simply signature for the report, because that's it's not negative, it's great, yeah, but it doesn't carry any information.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

It's it doesn't tell you what you what about it is great, like what have you done specific the specific thing that has made a difference there. It's fascinating. My brain always goes to the negative as well. It's like the minute, the minute you get convicted and you're like, oh no, what have I done wrong?

SPEAKER_03 27:54

Yeah, exactly. I think there is something about you have a sense of what you do is the best you can do, but you still have this doubt, don't you? And if you don't get any appreciation for even if you weren't quite on the mark, but the effort was admirable or whatever, you will probably just back away or doubt yourself even more. So there is an inextricable link, I think you're talking to here, about appreciation and confidence. And and then that does link back to trust, right? How can you be confident in a low trust environment? Well, it's difficult. And then how do you create a high trust environment? Well, not being funny, but you have to show appreciation and you have to build that trust through that. So it's like, what why haven't we triangulated this stuff almost like uh as a normative state of being? So there's definitely something about um, again, the system of signals. Um uh and and so there's something in here about the signals having a cost. So that's the kind of question I want to put to you. Like, what's the cost when we are inconsistent in the signals that come through when it comes to appreciation and trust building? Um, because I'm sure there are some, and I think this report starts to pull some quite serious threats, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yeah, and no, you're absolutely right. And ultimately it's one of the most important bits around appreciation, isn't it? And you actually started touching on it when you said, imagine you're in a boardroom and you've got a point to make, but then you know there's no impact of you making points, or nobody's ever appreciated you making a point, or nobody nobody's ever acknowledged it, and then you hold back and that changes.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

I mean, that means that you it takes you longer to identify an issue, which would cost you a lot more money later on down the line. It would mean that you could have done something quicker. So imagine like a much better product or much better relationship with your clients if that issue was identified earlier. That alone is something that people don't quite because it's not the visible thing. Again, it's like the slow buildup of all those moments when you hold back, when you don't share with the rest of the teams because you're like, well, they don't care. Why would I put in effort when you don't show your mistake or don't share your mistake early on when it's happened? Yeah, um, or you're not being the creative best self because you know that ultimately there's no benefit for you in any in any way from that situation. That's that's a hidden cost that almost like you can say, yeah, 45% more productivity, etc. But are you acknowledging that huge cost that you're losing? Talking about discretionary effort as well. I mean, a lot of organizations rely on their employees to to go the extra mile, not just tick the box and complete their job, but think about it test improvements, or now with AI, maybe work in their own time and create like a new product that they can do the work faster. We rely on our employees. Our employees are our biggest assets, and the discretionary effort is so key in all of that, that extra mile that the employees go. But if they don't feel appreciated, if they don't, if they're not sending the right signals by the organization of what matters to the organization, if they don't trust us, if that psychological connection and contract is broken, then the attachment is gone. And if we don't have the attachment, then we're not gonna go there, we're not gonna put that effort in. And ultimately, when the recruiter calls, we are gonna go somewhere else because we're gonna be hopeful that maybe we will get appreciated there. Maybe we will be able to unleash ourselves and be that amazing person that we want to be somewhere else. And I think that's something that people don't think about. Yes, the cost of replacing people is so big, but alongside that, the quiet quitting or the slightly disengaged staff, that cost is much, much bigger because you've got the people there, you've got the people there, but they're not giving you the their 100% or even 70%, you know. They're not giving you because they don't believe that that would matter, that would create an impact. And nobody wants to create something that does that won't have an impact, right? Yeah, and I think this is something that we're missing as an organization at the time the energy, the coordination, that performance problem that happens before you even acknowledge that there is a performance problem, right? Um, and I think this is something that the report pulls together, and it's something that we haven't probably thought about in this sense. It's difficult to measure. Yeah, I agree. It's difficult to measure, so it might be difficult to put the numbers. We all love numbers, it's difficult to put the numbers around it, but you see it, you see it when it's working, you see it when teams collaborate, you see it when you're thinking uh as part of the customer service um team, and you see there's 10 customers this week that complained about this particular issue. I'm gonna go and speak to the development team and I'm gonna tell them that and see if is there anything that we can do to fix it. And then what happens then? They build it, we save time uh on replying to customers, our customers are happy, and all of that happens because we trust each other as a team, we collaborate with each other, we have the attachment with belong all together to the business, and and we trust that when we go and share an issue, it will be helpful, it will be acknowledged, it will be received, and that's that's where the benefit is coming, and that's where the cost is coming at the same time that we probably not necessarily acknowledge.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Sorry, that went on very long, but no, no, no, I totally agree because I think there's another element to the stay thing, which isn't just that the recruiter calls and off people go. So there's but there's kind of stay the course, stay with the mission, stay with the impact you want to have, stay with the customer need. So I think this stay thing translates not just to um disappearing, quite literally, but I think it's all almost gradually checking out of all those things that actually make a difference to an organization that's really strong on enterprise and and powerful on its impact. And you just made me think about how difficult it is to track the causality of a kind of low appreciation culture and the impact on performance. But it shouldn't be something that just because it's hard to compute, that we shouldn't put in the conditions that would correct that anyway. So if we can't prove it, then we can't disprove it either. So therefore, that is a neutral stance to be in. So therefore, put some effort in and then just sense what the improvements are. You made me think about the fact that this is much more of a phenomenon than it is an absolute calculable thing, right? And I think if I think about quantum computing, like computing is built on ones and zeros, and quantum computing says, I'll just put them in any formulation I need to get there quicker. I think we're also talking about a quantum energy thing here, because if there isn't that kind of backdrop of appreciation, support, thankfulness, and thoughtfulness, then the quantum impact on us is that you'll see less and it'll be drag and it'll be lag and and and it would just be so unfulfilling for us. I think that that fulfilment top-up is so important to us. And there's a wonderful research researcher who sadly died a couple of years ago, Sigal Barside, who talked about the concept of companionate love. And so she would talk to things like fire and rescue services who were like, you know, in in their sort of um uh cafeteria area waiting for the alarm to go off before they then all piled in the lorry and took out to the roads to put a fire out or something. These were people who lived together, who bonded, because it's like, I've got to look after you, you've got to look after me, we're in dangerous situations, we're in it together. They actually described their their connection to each other as quite loving because it was deeper than just colleagues. And because of that, there's an enormous amount of appreciation for each other that is spoken, that is almost ritualistic in a really, really nice way. That's the kind of quantum power that you you would be very difficult calculating it and putting it on a spreadsheet, but you know it's gonna power your team through the toughest times and the and the smartest innovation. So, yeah, uh again, there's so much that this talks to of human spirit, it is almost like we sometimes forget the human spirit at work is a big contributing factor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Yeah, you're totally right. And what what you touched on there is that appreciation actually goes into every part of work, even safety, right? Because if you don't trust the people, if you don't feel supported by them, then how would you trust them with your safety, right? Even in that area, it's um yeah, it just it impacts every single area of the business without us acknowledging it.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

And I guess my last question um to you is what's the simplest thing that we can do to make a difference in terms of appreciation? What's the the first thing that we should start with?

SPEAKER_03 37:01

Or yeah, what a lovely invitation to think. Because I think you said this right at the start, actually. Simplifying this is not an attempt to dumb it down. It's just to remind us that this is not as awkward, difficult, and and you know, um dangerous uh as we might think it is. So I think there's something about we jump from thing to thing that are our priority kind of thing, right? So I hate priorities the double because I don't think that's right. When it's a priority, it's the one most important thing. So we do that, then what we find ourselves doing is going on to the next priority on the list, right? The next thing down because we got rid of that one. So that's becoming the priority. Without even a moment's thought to kind of go into that and say, right, people involved in this priority, let's just take a bit of time out. What happened there? How did we get on? What do we want to appreciate about each other in getting that priority over the line and sorted? Almost like as a like a retrospective in Agile, but just a tiny, tiny pause between that and the next priority. Because I think that's something where you can just stop, think, share, feel, and then go, oh, wasn't that good? Right, let's go again. So it's not interrupting the flow in a in a way that stops you being your best. It's just topping yourself up, it's reminding yourself that this is a collective thing, that you did something good, that that you know, people recognise your effort, even if it didn't quite work out how it should have been, and somebody had to bail you out. But you can show that appreciation, that thanks, that kindness, that thoughtfulness. Just in a tiny little two-minute interlude before you go on to the next thing. And you can do that for yourself as well. If you're solo playing a piece of work, don't just go, right, I'm on that now. Just go, mmm, two minutes. What am I appreciating about myself in that? So even you can self-teach it. So I think self and collective, just a two-minute appreciation, thankful pause, remote or in place, whatever, that just that to me is like that's a one day-to-day thing we can just enshrine.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Yeah. Do you know two things there? The first thing is feel.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

I think we so often we so often want to ignore the feelings or take away the feelings from work, but it's impossible. They are part of us. However hard we try, feelings are gonna play a role in our work life. It's impossible not to. And I think the quicker we acknowledge that, the better work life we're gonna have. Um and the second thing is that we should appreciate ourselves as well.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Um, I say this a lot to my founder friends because as founders we're so rushing the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, and it's so important to just stop and acknowledge the journey that you've had and the things that went well because that that's what gives you the fuel to carry on. Uh, and I think that's that's true for for every person out there, isn't it? The appreciation should come from within as well.

SPEAKER_03 40:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then I've just got one question for you, and it kind of talks to how I've seen a lot of recognition programs come into the commercial work because I think that they have this intent that to do what you said. Um, what do you think is the difference between a program that lands and one that feels a little bit empty and doesn't quite hit the spot? What have you sort of found in your time and what's in the report on that?

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Intention is it what I would say. So what what we see often is a lot of people kind of introduce a platform, let's say, and they're hopeful that the platform is magically gonna solve everything within the organization. But unless there's uh an intention, unless there's an openness about the program and a bit of encouragement, whether that comes from the management or from those really um out there individuals who are understanding the power of appreciation, I think you have to have the intention of it becoming part of your work life. You have to think about it like what works for your team, don't just leave it to chance, but be a bit more proactive, put the infrastructure around it through a platform, but through a bit of thinking of what works for us or how do we want to think about it. There's a question actually in the action pack that asks you if uh if a new joiner is asked the question of what is this culture to you after a month within the organization, um what would they say? And I think that's really that's really get get gets you thinking. Like you need to know what are you trying to achieve with this? Is it turning it into a daily habit? Is it celebrating the big, the small moments? Like, what are you actually trying to achieve by introducing a program or introducing a platform? And how do you get everyone on board? Um I think this is kind of the the clarity there um through introducing this, um through introducing appreciation is really, really um key. And don't just leave it to chance, it it won't happen over chat uh just by chance and it'll take time. You just need to accept that it will take time, people need time to get thinking. Like there's one other thing that we've got in the report is that trust comes on a donkey but goes as a rocket or something like that. And that's so true for everything. It takes time to build that trust, that attachment, that to send the right signals consistently, and that's when the cumulative um impact happens. So be patient and be intentional, I guess, are the two things that people need to understand.

SPEAKER_03 42:39

Because I think that kind of wraps it up when we go back to the difference between doing appreciative things and being appreciative. I I think that's just perfectly encapsulated that. So gosh, it feels like we have talked about both that acronym and the whole report there, which is no mean feat, because um I can honestly say this, it's been one of the most enjoyable pieces of work in terms of research and compilation I've done in a long, long time. You kind of think it should be about this subject, but I equally thought I don't know how convincing we can be to produce something when I want it to be, but I don't know how convincing it is. And now I look at it and think, wow, it's more convincing than I thought it ever could be. So thank you for um for adding to that and making this an opportunity to actually really say science says, uh the spirit says, and now the system needs to say it as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

I love it. And again, the whole Thangbooks team is super grateful for your time and your involvement and bringing this to life is um yeah, uh honestly, we couldn't have done it without you. So thank you so much. And I hope everyone enjoys reading the report and gets a lot out of it.

SPEAKER_03 43:42

Gosh, me too, yeah. Otherwise, we'll have words. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

Uh thanks Vietalina.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

I hope this episode gave you some practical ideas on how to. term appreciation from a nice to have into a business priority. If you like the episode, please reach out and share your thoughts with me. If you have any feedback, I'd love to hear it too. Thank you for listening and don't forget to share appreciation.