The Bible Exalted! 035 Faith and Its Many Facets

The Bible Exalted! is a podcast program that seeks to uplift the word of God which is being highly exalted at this time. Each episode explores both sides of a doctrine, examining how one passage of Scripture may seem to teach one truth while another points in a different direction. Through careful study, the program seeks to uncover the harmony of the Bible as a whole, showing which understanding aligns with the full testimony of Scripture.


"...rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

About Panel Speakers:

Chris McCann:
Chris grew up in Philadelphia. Like many of God’s elect, he was first raised in the ways of the world until God drew him to His Word, the Bible. With an earnest desire to study the Scriptures and uncover the mysteries hidden within them, Chris—together with others—founded the ministry of eBibleFellowship. The ministry is dedicated to faithfully proclaiming all that is written in the Word of God and striving to remain true to its teachings.

Bob Grande:
Bob was also raised in the Philadelphia area.  God drew him to be interested in studying the Bible in the early 1990's.  He attended church until 2001 and departed out after learning about the end of the church age. He is currently seeking to grow in the grace of God.


Gary Daniels:
Gary from Philadelphia: Gary grew up listening to both a faithful ministry that at the time declared the truth from the Bible for many years, but also was under the pentecostal church. God led him toward the truth and is thankful for God's mercy showing many truth's from the Bible

Karl von Harringa:
Karl was born and raised in Ohio, just outside of Columbus. From an early age, he was brought up under the hearing of the truth and developed an interest in the Bible. He grew up in a household where the Word of God was central.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

And now here's a pre-recording of an eBible Fellowship panel discussion. Hello, everyone, and good evening. Welcome to the Bible Exalted Program. I'm your host, Gary Daniels, and tonight we're seeking the Bible's answers to various topics in which the Bible has the final say in the matter. Joining us today are our beloved three panel speakers, Bob Grandi, Chris McCann, and Carl von Huringa. Welcome again, radio listeners, and folks that are watching on Zoom, YouTube, and other platforms. Tonight's discussion is faith and its many facets. That's faith and its many facets. So welcome. You can join us live on eBiblefellowship.org or a read broadcast at a later time. This is a one and a half hour program with a one-hour program for those that are watching at a later date. And we'd like to hear from you. We'd like to hear your on topic comments or questions. And there will be a bonus half hour after the one hour portion for those watching live. All right. So again, tonight's topic is faith and its many facets. And we will start with you, Bob.

SPEAKER_04 1:22

Okay, thanks, Gary. Hi, everybody. Yeah, faith, faith has many facets, and uh, you know, over the past few decades, we've learned a lot about faith and some new doctrines that in the past weren't known. Um, one of them is, and we've known this, but it we've learned that another name for Jesus is uh, and he's a Jesus is is eternal God, of course. And another name for him is faithful. And we read in uh Revelation 19, verse 11, uh uh it says there, and I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and he that sat upon him was called faithful and true, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And of course, this is talking about Jesus. And in this verse, the word faithful is uh G4103 in the concordance, and it comes from the Greek word pistos. In addition, the word faith, which is our topic, is it's the word faith is closely related to the word faithful and comes from the Greek word pistos, which is G4102. So faithful is G4103 and faith is G4102, and both of these come from the same primary Greek word pho, P-E-I-T-H-O, which is G39 verse, uh G3982. Okay, now we got the math out of the way. Uh, I like to read a few verses that contain the English word faith from Epistus G4102, and then read them again, substituting the word Christ for the word faith. Okay, we'll start off with Hebrews 11, verse 1. Now, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Substituting. Now Christ is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. And after we make this substitution, we can understand that Jesus' demonstration of his atonement in 33 AD on the cross, uh, and the rec the record of it in the Bible provides the evidence of the actual atonement that he completed at the foundation of the world in eternity past, that no one witnessed except uh the Godhead. No one, no one was there in eternity past, and only the Godhead saw it or witnessed it. Uh, another verse, Jude 1, verse 3. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for a faith which was once delivered unto the saints. And I won't repeat the whole verse, but substituting and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for Christ, which was once delivered unto the saints. It makes more sense when we make that substitution because we learned that Jesus was once delivered at the foundation of the world when he sacrificed himself as the Lamb of God. And he was once delivered then, and uh also uh the the the uh he was delivered unto the saints because he paid for the sins of his elect when when he performed the atonement. Okay, and then there's um I want to look at Mark 10, 52, and Jesus said unto him, and and this is referring back to blind Bartimaeus, who wanted to see. Uh Jesus said unto him, Go thy way, thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus in the way. Now it sounds like you know, it was all up to blind Bartimaeus. It was his faith that made him whole, but that's not possible. If we make the substitution, it makes more sense. And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way, thy Christ has made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight. And this is a picture of salvation. Receiving his sight was a picture of receiving salvation. Um and there's a similar verse in Luke regarding the woman that washed Jesus' feet with her tears and hair in Luke 7, 48 to 50. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meet with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee. Go in peace. And making the substitution at the uh in verse 50, and he said to the woman, Thy Christ hath saved thee. Go in peace. So it makes it makes a whole lot more sense, and it and it gives uh a kind of a new meaning to the word faith that really has hadn't been taught uh in the past during the church age. So from these verses, we can understand that Christ, Jesus Christ, is thy faith or our faith, if we've been saved and have had our sins paid for. Not only is Jesus Christ referred to as thy faith himself, but the Bible also teaches that he possesses the work of faith, or he possesses faith. And it was his faith and his work at the foundation of the world that brought salvation during the day of salvation, which ended on May 21, 2011. And I'd like to look at a couple of verses here in John 6, 29. Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. And the word believe in this verse comes from the Greek word, which is G4100. And it's derived from the word pistis, G4102, which we learned is the Greek word for faith. So believing and faith are are very closely related. But uh we can't we really can't believe until we become saved, and it's and it's by Christ, the faith of Christ that saves us. And uh Galatians 2, 16 is a powerful verse that teaches this. I'll read it. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law. For by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. And Philippians 3, verse 9 teaches the same thing. It says, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Now, many churches teach that people start out with faith, and that the way to become saved is was to put one's faith in Christ, and that'll that'll be the magic trick, so to speak. But the Bible teaches that that this is impossible, as I said before, and we can read about that in Matthew 19, verse 26, uh 5 and 6. Matthew 19, 25 and 26. When his disciples heard it, they were exceeding amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them and said unto them, With men, this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. So it's impossible for anyone to put their faith in Christ to get saved. Christ, we we the only thing we contribute is being the corpse that the the spiritual corpse that Christ acts upon. Now, lastly, I I'll just finish with this. The Bible does teach that only God's elect will have true faith because it is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. It's a gift that God gave each of his people after he saved their spiritually dead soul, which previously was not able to believe the truth. And in Galatians 5, verse 22, we read about this in 22 and 23. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Against such there is no law.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Well done. Well done, Bob. And and uh starting it off with Christ being faith himself is uh such a good foundation to build on, and and leading that into the faith of Christ, where not only Christ is faith himself, but also the faith that's of Christ and building that foundation to the life of the elect really lays that um out very, very well.

unknown 11:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

You made a lot of good points from uh Hebrews 11:1. Now, faith is the substance of things, hopefully the evidence of things not seen. And just to add to that, because throughout the whole chapter, the faith chapter of Hebrews 11, it could be every time we read faith, we can we can substitute Christ. And in verse one, where it says substance, the Greek word that's translated substance, I think it's only found about two or three times. And one other time in Hebrews chapter one, it's translated person. It says in Hebrews one, verse three, who being uh well, I'll read from verse two, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds, who, being the brightness of his glory and the express image of his person, and it's referring to the Son who is Christ, and so we can take the word person, even though it's not the normal word for person, but we can take it because this word it's Strong's um 5287 is translated as substance in Hebrews 11:1, and so it would be interchangeable. So when we go to Hebrews 11:1, we can read now faith is the person of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, and it it adds support to the whole idea that that faith is a person, faith, and and it's correct. It's correct, it's a correct statement that Jesus is the essence of faith, and in his being, he is faithful, he is the person of faith, and that also, like you you mentioned in Jude 3, and I want to read that in Jude 3, because there's a lot of commentary on this and a lot of speculation what it means in Jude 3, beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. And so uh, you know, various theologians they ponder and think, and well, what could that faith be? And they decide, well, it's the faith of our fathers. It's the faith of our fathers, the church fathers. But what's the problem with that understanding? Was the faith or the you know, the confessions, the creeds, the doctrines of the church fathers, was it once delivered, or has that been delivered multiple times down through the centuries? And the answer is yes, it's been delivered many times and generation after generation. It cannot be the faith once delivered unto the saints. Now, the fact that it says saints, that uh, you know, not everybody's a saint. The Catholics have that part, right? When when they they um they have few saints, of course, they don't have the right criteria and they can't make any. God makes saints, and the saints are few because the saints are God's elect. And uh, you know, I won't I won't go to the various verses, but we can definitely prove that from the Bible. Christ comes with 10,000 of his saints. I don't think the Catholics have that many, but Christ comes with ten thousands, and and really that figure represents far more than ten thousands. It it is the completeness of saints, all that he has saved, because the word saint is the same word holy. He comes with ten thousands of his holy ones. And actually, it says in Deuteronomy 33, where it's really uh another verse that goes along with those scriptures that Christ comes with 10,000 saints. In Deuteronomy 33, verse 2, Jehovah came from Sinai and rose up from Sierra unto them. He shined forth from Mount Peran, and he came with 10,000 of saints. From his right hand went a fiery law for them, yea, he loved the people, all his saints are in thy hand, and they sat down at thy feet. Everyone shall receive of thy words. All the saints sat down at the feet of Christ, like Mary, like Mary did when she was listening to the words of Jesus. And so it's all the people of God that are the saints. We are the kingdom. Christ comes with his kingdom, he comes with his saints. And so here the faith was once delivered unto the saints. And the word delivered, we find it's the same word in the gospel account where Jesus is delivered unto Pilate. Pilate delivers him to be crucified. Christ once delivered is language that identifies with the atonement. Hebrews 9, verse 26 tells us that Jesus didn't have to offer himself often, but uh else he would have to suffer often from the foundation of the world. Uh, but he he was uh how does it say that in Hebrews 9 26? Uh for then must he have often have suffered since it's the same word from from the foundation of the world, but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. So now once in the end of the world, he went to the cross. And you know, the demonstration was a one-time demonstration, and payment performed at the foundation of the world was a one-time payment. So God can use the word once in regard to either one. But in Jude, Christ was once delivered for the cause of the saints to pay for our sins. And then we we see again the faith must be Jesus, like Bob was saying, and it must be the person of Jesus Christ called the faith. Nothing else qualifies, even the Bible. Even the Bible was not once delivered, the Bible was written over 1500 years, handed down from generation, generation, generation, all the way until it reached us. So there's nothing else that fits the criteria that qualifies for being once delivered, and then we look up once ties with Christ, delivered ties with Christ, unto the saints ties with Christ. It must be delivered Jesus Christ is the faith that was once delivered.

SPEAKER_05 19:33

Yeah, excellent.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Excellent, Chris. Uh Carl, do you want to say something?

SPEAKER_03 19:38

I was just I have a few verses uh that are good too. I don't know if they read. Second Thessalonians 1, verse 11 reads, uh, wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness and the work of faith with power. And again understand those verses that you brought up, um Bob, with when it says thy faith hath made thee whole. Because I always used to struggle with uh I mean I knew Christ is faith, but as soon as I replaced uh faith with Christ, and it and it made perfect sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Now, if I may, I I I grew up in the church and charismatic church, and I think this is one of the most uh poorly handled uh terms in the Bible that mankind has stretched out, to the point where even in media, even cartoons or shows, they would say, You gotta believe, and they would say, the power from within, and they would say things like exercise your faith. Those phrases were used so much in my childhood, I could not just differentiate if exercise your faith was in the Bible or not. Because you would have pastors and leaders using phrases like, you gotta believe, exercise your faith. And it they set it as a command, almost like a power that you could summon. It was an ability, almost like um if you wanted to get a job, if you wanted to pursue something in life, they would use that phrase, you gotta exercise your faith. And so I have a few Bible verses, and perhaps you gentlemen can tell me if this seems uh somewhat accurate. There were some verses that God put in the Bible as a stumbling stone and as a test when God would say, you know, in like in Proverbs, it would say, if you fall, your your strength is uh let me see if I can find that verse, but it would almost give the impression that if they couldn't cast out a demon, they didn't have enough faith. Or if there was something that that they were troubled by, they couldn't they couldn't uh affirm to it because they didn't have the ability. or the faith to summon. So I have I have a few verses here. In in Matthew chapter eight there was a centurion who was able by God's grace to have faith. So I'm going to read this. And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, and first came this Matthew chapter eight verse five. And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion beseeching him, and saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof, but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. And I'll ver I'll go to verse 10. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And that made me think about Deuteronomy chapter thirty-two and I believe it's verse twenty. Where God spoke of those of old and he says in Deuteronomy chapter thirty two verse twenty and he said, That's Jehovah I will hide my face from them I will see what their end shall be for they are a very forward generation with children in whom is no faith. And the the people who represented the external representation of the ch the kingdom of heaven they did not have Christ. And so that carried on I believe not only with national Israel but with those in the synagogues and and also those in the churches the external representation of the kingdom of heaven and that continued on but it almost gave the impression that faith was something that they could could could you know conjure up themselves especially when God says great faith because when he speaks to sometimes his own disciples he calls them O ye of little faith in Matthew chapter 17 God talks about a gra a faith as grain as of of a mustard seed. So if you can let me know gentlemen is it possible that the faith as grain of mustard seed in Matthew chapter 17 verse 20 and Jesus said unto them, Because of your own belief for verily I say unto you if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, remove hence to yonder place and it shall remove, and nothing shall be impossible unto you. How beit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. So what I'm what I'm thinking is is that when God says little faith, could this happen to be the timeline in which God is manifesting salvation? And when he says great faith could it be also a picture of God of the portion of the Holy Spirit being poured out at different timelines of history because we read in Deuteronomy that they had no faith I think I think that's where we got to start.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Okay. Like the Deuteronomy verse. And verse uh two and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men for all men is italicized but it would you know for all have not faith all have not faith uh and it it's speaking of unreasonable and wicked men well okay someone might say yeah all the wicked men they don't have faith well just one problem who's who's the wicked who's the wicked um the heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things and so all have sinned all have fallen short of the glory of God all to begin with have a desperately wicked heart and if you're wicked you have not faith children in whom there is no faith faith is Christ and that doesn't mean people can't have intellectual type faith right they can have faith in and in Deuteronomy 32 in that passage it mentions the false gods leading up to that so they they have that kind of faith um going back there deuteronomy 32 uh 16 they provoked him to jealousy with strange gods they verse 17 they sacrificed unto devils not to God and of the rock that begot thee thou art unmindful has forgotten God that formed thee and then it leads into I will hide my face from them they have provoked me to anger so man has faith in statues he has you know carved images he has faith in other writings that are not the Bible and some have faith in a God that the Bible speaks of and teaches you know Christ they have faith in Christ but they go off from what the Bible says and they really make a God out of their own mind their own imagination but as far as true faith saving faith in the Bible is always Christ no man possesses Christ in his sinful condition and this this the whole problem with um man's heart uh over in Hebrews 3 in Hebrews 3 it says in verse 12 take heed brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God now unbelief as well as no faith no faith is a negative with the Greek word and and there's a series of words Bob was mentioning uh I don't have it straight in my head it it's either pisthis or pista so it's no pisthis or no pisthia no faith a pisth yeah unbrief unboking coming up okay yeah let's let's do the break and then we can we can continue so folks you're listening to the Bible exalted program our tonight's topic is faith and it's many facets uh once Chris is finished we can open up the lines for you to ask your questions or give a comment uh but you're listening to the Bible exalted program and tonight's topic is faith and it's many facets please go ahead Chris well uh the word the Greek word unbelief is the word faith or belief with an alpha prefix prefix in attached that negates it so it literally means no faith therefore an evil heart of no faith is what unbelief means and that's the heart of man Jeremiah 17 verse nine that is man's fallen nature no faith this is the error of the uh the the false gospels what we we can we can recognize them as that of the churches that that uh present a gospel to the congregation to people to the world where like you're saying you have to exercise your faith you have to believe you have to summon it up it's in you somewhere and if you don't believe it's your fault it's your fault uh really they don't say that I guess but or maybe most of them don't say it but that's the definite implication there's something wrong with you if you don't do what I've done what all these others here in the church have done we we um in our in our wisdom in our uh in uh you know our understanding we have found that faith and we have exercised now what they're talking about is intellectual understanding yeah okay and and uh you you have made a decision which is in the mind right if I decide to do something tomorrow I make the decision in my mind and I I go do it well they've made a decision I'm going I've had enough uh and in their their misunderstanding of the true gospel of the Bible they make a decision I'm going to walk down the aisle I've heard the preacher preach this many times and I'm finally going to do it and I'll be baptized and I will say those words I accept you Lord all intellectual that is all happening in their mind the decision the thoughts of it probably very sincere in most cases and yet that is not the area that uh the Bible's talking about when it speaks of an evil heart of unbelief it's talking about the soul going back to Jeremiah 17 verse 9 the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things who can know it and and so a man in his physical mind he decides I'm going to live as a Christian and he can he can be very faithful you know even in attending church and and reading the Bible and praying and and and it it none of that is salvation. None of that is man cannot save himself because he has an evil heart of unbelief to begin with which requires a heart transplant and God tells us I will take out your heart of stone a heart of stone is a heart of unbelief you you can't it it it's stony there there's there's no um spiritual life in it it's a dead thing I will take out your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh God does the transplant now once God does the transplant um then like like Bob was mentioning the fruit of the Spirit one of which is faith so now God has saved me but he saved me by the faith of Christ the faith once delivered to the saints Christ delivered on on my behalf and God applying that faith comes Romans 1017 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God so the the the method God used to deliver Christ faith to the saints was the hearing of the Bible and and then the spirit of Christ entered in and all of a sudden we possess faith even if we didn't know it for a while and the spirits within now afterward we can exercise faith now I don't know see that you you probably pick the hardest um passage or you know verse where where great is thy faith because the other ones like Bob was saying we we we have good understanding good explanation thy faith has saved thee and if if you substitute Christ or God thy God has saved thee we understand right away oh yeah Jesus Jesus um did the work jesus did it all which which it must be that has to be the understanding it's the only thing that harmonizes with all the Bible but um it it the way God wrote it yeah perhaps it could be the individual's faith but the rest of the Bible won't allow it now great is thy faith well it's true of Christ he he is great but the the passage definitely seems he's focused on that man and and it it uh and I have not found so great faith in Israel so uh I I know you're thinking of uh maybe even deeper spiritual meaning that would identify with um maybe some particular time and season or something like that. I don't know I I I never thought of that but um it would one thing we know when when we let let's go to James and I'll let somebody else talk in James 2 James 2 where it speaks of works and faith and says in James 2 verse 17 even so faith if it hath not works is dead being alone yea a man may say now the man who's in view is Christ a man may say thou hast faith so it's Christ let's say speaking to countless professed Christians who professed they they say with their mouth they're a Christian a man may say thou hast faith and I have works that is Jesus has the works of the atonement the finished works Hebrews 4 3 at the the works finished from the foundation of the world so you say that you have faith and Jesus says I have works show me thy faith or your faith without thy works and I will show thee my faith by my works so in speaking to someone who's a professed Christian you have the profession but what you're lacking is the works and and people immediately think oh uh Lord Lord have I not done done many wonderful works in thy name cast out devils and done this and done that well Christ says depart from me ye workers of iniquity that's not the right work and and maybe they did do actually good works just like today in our time we have people you know who have since gone away and they did some wonderful works using their money to support the family radio uh uh to support family radio sending forth a lot of rain going on track trips all kinds of things lord lord but that's not the word that doesn't save anybody it's the accompaniment to profession of faith is the work of Christ performed on your behalf so then it says after it's saying I will show thee my faith by my works so when we read in Hebrews 4 3 the works finish at the foundation of the world that's telling us about Christ's faith at the foundation of the world thou believest there is one God thou believest you have intellectual ascent you agree thou doest well God is commending you you who you know all profess Christendom you believe you believe there's one God even Muslims okay in in the understanding there's one God fine or the Jews okay on that level you believe there's one God well thou doest well the devils also believe and tremble now why did God say that who are the devils the devils are the fallen angels the the devils believe or has had when they saw Jesus has thou come to torment us before the time they believed they they trembled but they so so the devils had belief as much as men but what did the devils lack works performed on their behalf Christ didn't pay for the sins of any of the devils so that's the point you say you have faith but it's without works speaking you know in the earlier verse to men and then he gives the example the devils also believe in tremble and we know no work was done for them no paying for their sins was done and and so the professed Christian without the work of Christ the faith of Christ in in um paying for his sins is on you know uh basically the same level as the devil the the devil has belief of God they know God exists maybe even more than men but no work no work and and uh that's where the church fails they they misum apply and misunderstand intellectual assent and and faith out of their mind with that of the heart and uh they they also fail to understand that it must have accompanying any profession of faith must have accompanying work that is not their own work but it it's Christ and that means that Christ had to save them uh in order for their faith to be genuine having been genuine saving faith yeah Simon of the of the man right who had who had belief right because he said he believed Simon the sorcerer but yet his heart condition wasn't right yeah do you want to read that I think it's in Acts eight yeah though I have all faith that I could remove mountains so uh verse thirteen of Acts eight and Simon himself believed also and when he was baptized he continued with Philip and wondered beholding the miracles and signs which were done so he believes but then let a little further down yeah his heart was not right that's uh verses twenty one uh yeah thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter for thy heart is not right in the sight of God and then he's telling him to repent therefore of this thy wickedness and it even says I perceive thou art in the gull of bitterness in the bond of iniquity and and he believed he believed uh because um belief belief of mind uh is not salvation and and so his heart was in the gull of iniquity desperately wicked deceitful still um because God has to do the changing of the heart Chris I'd like to you know you made this a comment about you know the churches say well what's wrong with you why don't why don't you exercise that faith that you have in and get yourself saved um you know but it it ha that's based on the um the the false foundation that that Christ paid for everybody's sins right and not just not just for the sins of the elect but for everybody's sins and so yeah it it the uh uh you use the uh analogy of the a basin full of of of blood that uh you know i is applied by the hyssop that that's that's there for everybody no but that's not true um but that's where they get this doctrine uh that you can oh you can just uh exercise your own faith and get yourself saved and um you know the biggest verse that I I think uh the most popular verse that they use is uh is John three sixteen right um turn there it's uh it's you see that verse um people just hold up the sign John three sixteen you know sporting events or behind yeah

SPEAKER_04 44:00

Courageous. It's courageous, you know. Media are covering somebody that's famous, and there'll be somebody behind them with the sign. Um, John 3 16 says, For God so loved the world, and the word so means in this manner, God in this manner loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever, and see they they jump on the word whosoever, uh it could be anybody, uh, believeth in him, should not perish but have everlasting life. So uh the job is to believe in him. But like you said, you know, intellectual belief is not gonna do the trick. Uh only only God's elect will believe with you know with a a new heart, the the heart transplant that you uh had had talked about. Uh that transplant has to has to take place first. And then a belief is is a a product or a function of the the gift of the Holy Spirit again.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Like the verse you brought up earlier in John 6. You know, I mean that this is really Yeah, that really hits it, uh hits the nail on the head. John 6, uh, verse 28, 29. Then said they unto him, What shall we do that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto him, This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he has sent. So it's the work of Christ that anyone believe that that uh that he's the savior, that we you know believe after we have faith, after he saved us. It's it's his work that saved us. Then we have the responsive, you know, um reaction of faith, but first he must do that work.

SPEAKER_04 46:09

Yeah, there's a there's a good verse that that uh ties that in in Hebrews 12, too. Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, right? Who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. And you know, the the um back going back also to John 3.16, for God so loved the world, one of the things that that uh you've been teaching for several years now is is that it's not the whole world, it's not the world of everybody. It's there's a there's a world of God's elect, and then there's on the other hand, there's the world of those that are not elect. So, you know, John 3.16 is really just talking about God loving the elect.

SPEAKER_03 47:04

And also that the whole idea of um God paying for everyone's sins, right? Doesn't agree with verses like Isaiah 53.

SPEAKER_04 47:14

You know it or you cut out a little bit there at the Isaiah 53.

SPEAKER_03 47:19

I think you have a loose wire. Uh no, I think uh somebody was using the computer at the same time, so slowing down the connection. You know, you know what's interesting?

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Um better now. Yeah, it sounds pretty good. Okay. Someone can substitute uh the word faith for salvation, right? Because when when people talk about the faith of Christ, it's like the salvation of Christ. Christ is salvation. So when people talk about uh faith, uh you could actually substitute whether God saves someone or where whether if someone believes of themselves and it's a false sense of salvation. And so it just if you substitute the word faith for salvation, if someone has their own faith, they basically have their own salvation. But if they have the faith of Christ, they have the salvation of Christ because Christ is salvation. And uh a friend of mine was uh telling me this verse in John chapter 20, it's a 2033 plug. Let's see if you can pick up the curious language here, John chapter 20, verse 26. And after eight days, again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands, and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side, and be not faithless but believing. So this verse on the surface, it almost gives someone the impression, if they're the Holy Spirit isn't guiding them, that if someone is faithless, you can recover that if you believe. So if you don't have faith, just believe and the faith is going to come. And and so you have a you can see uh a pastor or you know someone in the past that God may not have opened their eyes, they could look at this verse, and these are all action words, these are all things that someone can participate in and give a very false sense that they can somehow believe to get the faith. Because if, you know, be not faithless, it's as if God is is giving this command. But again, it's like saying, Rise up and walk. It's like saying, Come out of the tomb, Lazarus. These are commands. But uh, without Christ, um, if someone tries to have faith on their own, they basically are saving themselves, which I believe is like they're paying for their own sin. It's because either Christ atones or someone atones. Christ.

SPEAKER_04 50:05

I thought I thought you were gonna point out that the doors being shut. Well, that that was the clue. You got it. And eight days. May May 21, 2011, the doors were shut.

SPEAKER_05 50:17

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 50:18

And and uh, you know, there's no more salvation, but you know, it I I guess are you saying that is uh are you saying that Thomas is a figure of of uh the the the bride of Christ?

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Well I didn't get I didn't get that far, but the eight days the eight days, because that's that's that's pretty interesting, the number eight associated with salvation, all those safe in the ark with the same thing. Well entering entering into the eighth millennium, that's right. The door is shut and Christ is with them. And in in terms of Thomas, I I didn't get that far, but just significantly the number eight, the door being shut and Christ with his elect. Those those uh stood out. And as and in terms of Thomas, you know, Christ was telling Thomas not to be faithless. And and unfortunately, you know, if someone's a casual reader of the Bible, as Eddie would say, that's a that's a major pitfall because you know that that would seem to indicate that someone can believe and somehow recoup if they're having doubt, that they can somehow recover just by just by believing. Just close your eyes really tight. You know, that's unfortunate because that's how I grew up. You know, you can you can summon your faith by by just you know closing your fist and and closing your eyes. And I think a lot of I think a lot of people can identify with that.

SPEAKER_03 51:42

Well, Chris pointed out too that the verse says Carl lost. No, I was saying the verse that you brought up earlier about faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, that just goes to show you they don't start out with faith faith that it comes by hearing. So already that right that dismantles that idea that everyone has faith or whatever they believe, they start out with faith.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

Well, well, that verse I think plainly says all men have not faith. Yeah. It it it says that, and then when we an evil heart of unbelief, evil heart of no faith. Um, and and that's why it's necessary and and uh you read the verse that faith's a work, right? In uh 2 Thessalonians. Uh I think there's another one in first Thessalonians.

SPEAKER_04 52:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

Yeah, so there's those two verses. Um let me first Thessalonians 1 3.

SPEAKER_04 52:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

It says, uh remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love. And actually, I think that's saying love is also a work, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 52:56

Love is a work, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

Yeah, keep my commandments. So your labor of love, your work of faith, and um and and and uh Galatians 2 Galatians 2, 16, it says knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ. So that's twice. Notice the little word of possessive, it's in the genitive case, faith of Christ means belonging to Him. We are justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law, for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Faith is a work, and what is the definition for a work? If we had to give a biblical definition, what's the Bible's definition for a work? And it it would be whatever God commands us to do, your labor of love, right? Keep my commandments.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Now, Chris, uh that's the work. We we did get to our full hour. So at this point, we're going to say goodbye for today's Bible exalted uh episode. Uh tonight's topic was faith and its many facets. So, folks, uh our program will continue on for a bonus half hour on uh YouTube and Zoom, where you can click the join uh zoom button on www.ebiblefellowship.org. But for now, we're gonna say goodbye to our radio listeners. Welcome back, everyone, to the Bible Exalted program. This is our bonus half an hour. Today's topic or tonight's topic is faith and its many facets. That's faith.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

Uh I have our uh I'm sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Yes, yes, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 55:06

Uh well, I just want to um because we're we're all very familiar with Galatians 2.16. I think Carl mentioned Philippians 3.9 earlier. Um Philippians 3-9 that um also mentions faith of Christ or something similar. Yeah, yeah, faith of Christ. It says, and be found in him not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith, faith of Christ. And in Romans three, Romans three twenty-two, it's basically said again, even the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all, and upon all them that believe, for there is no difference. And in uh Galatians two twenty, this is put a little differently, it doesn't say Christ. Galatians two twenty, it says, I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. And so it's Christ's faith that justifies, no man is justified by the work of the law, and the definition for the law would be um if God commands something, then the uh attempt to obey it or the actual obeying of it is the work. Um, we have the example in James 2, where the Lord speaks of Abraham. Was Abraham our father not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac? Why did Abraham offer up his son Isaac? It just popped into his mind one day. God commanded him. God commanded him, uh, Abraham, take your your only son Isaac and offer him for a burnt offering. So as Abraham saddled his ass and went to carry it out, it was a work. And and God is saying, was not Abraham our father justified by works? Which you know flatly contradicts um Galatians 2.16 and other scripture. No man's justified by works. And even concerning Abraham, God wants to make sure that we don't go in a in a wrong direction concerning James, too, as as um uh you know it's it's reported that Martin Luther was upset about that chapter because he he learned justified by faith alone in the Reformation. And and there is not, was not Abraham our father justified by works? So God uh makes sure by saying in Romans 4, verse 2, for if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. Well, there's uh a definite, apparent contradiction, because no man's justified by works. Abraham, if he were justified by works, he has nowhere to glory, not before God. And yet it's said of him and and Rahab the harlot, um, was not Abraham justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac? And it must be the only the only solution, you know. Um we have to face these things. We what many do is just avoid them and and uh go around them and and not not try to harmonize them, but God calls his people to uh you know harmonize uh everything before reaching a conclusion. And what harmonizes is the work that justified Abraham. It was counted to him for righteousness, it also says in Romans 4. That work that justified him was the work of Christ performed on his behalf at the foundation of the world, applied to him through the hearing of the word of God, faith came to him, God justified him by works, and and then we ask the question uh it's like a snapshot in history. It's like God took a picture of Abraham taking Isaac to offer him as a sacrifice, and and then the caption is the question: was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son or when he went about to offer his son Isaac? And the answer, yes. Abraham was justified by works at that point because God had already uh applied his word through hearing and saved him, and therefore the work of Christ performed on his behalf was credited to him, the blood, like Bob was just mentioning, with Hissa, was applied to cover his sins, he's justified by works. Just uh an identical situation with Rahab the harlot. Was not Rahab the Harlot justified by works when she hid the spies with peace, or however that's put. Yes, Rahab had become saved. She even told the spies, we have heard, we have heard what God did when you crossed the Red Sea. She heard the word of God, she became saved through hearing the word of God, and in that moment, she was truly saved, justified by the work of Christ. And and God is just making reference to these particular points in Abraham's life or Rahab the Hard's life, uh, because he knows it's misdirection, you know. Kind of I've used that uh example before, the the pee under the cup. Where is it? Where is it? So God he points to something great and dramatic, like Abraham offering, uh being obedient to the point of being willing to offer his son, getting ready to plunge the knife down. It it it's if you've ever read uh theologians on Abraham and that act, uh you know, they're in love. They're in love. It's like, oh, oh, it it the great act of faith that Abraham performed that that justified him. And no, no, no, you've been deceived. You you you followed God's hand over here when the peas in this one over here. And uh the the truth is Abraham was justified like any other elect child of God by the faith of Christ. And so God could take a picture of uh let's uh let's see, what's a good name? See, I always use the old old names like Mary and John and stuff like that. Uh you know, when I was growing up. But let's pick, let but no, Bob forget. Bob's so common. It's not common anymore. Gary's actually so common. Gary's. How about an Amish name? Jebediah. All right, when when Jebediah was taken out the trash, and let's say Jebediah, he's um he was Amish, but he came out of that church because God saved him. And now Jebediah, he became saved and he's taken out the trash, and and so um the question could be asked: was not Jebediah um justified by works when he took the trash out back, you know, on Wednesday? And and people would say, What are you talking about? What are you talking about? Taking out the trash doesn't justify anybody. Okay, he did a good work as far as his wife's concerned. That just that doesn't justify anybody. Well, that's the point. Neither does even offering up your son, neither does hiding spies. Nothing a man can do justifies anybody. No man is justified by the works of the law. Whatever God commands, you could you could give um um you know all your money away. You you could devote your whole life to Christ from from this moment forward, and no act of obedience or attempt at obedience will ever justify any person. It's Christ who justifies. Thou sayest thou hast faith, Jesus, that man in James 2.17. You say you have faith, I have works.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

Right. You know, you know, Chris, that's an excellent point. Does this verse compliment that in Hebrews chapter 4, verses 1 and 2? It says uh that's Hebrews 4, verses 1 and 2. Let us therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into his rest, because he's doing the works, right? Any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached as well as unto them, but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. So again, the sleight of hand, like you're saying. And if Christ is faithful, if Christ is the faith of Christ, we ought to therefore rest in his works, right? Does that kind of continue on?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:45

That's definitely yeah, that's a good point about the Sabbath rest. That's that that is the spiritual meaning of why God gave the seventh day Sabbath. Do no work. Do no work. Um the man who paid. Up a few sticks. He did a little bit of work. Just a little bit of work. Like, like those uh, you know, uh, if you said to those Christians who think um that that accepting Christ is what they're supposed to do, and you said, Well, you're doing work, though I'm not doing any work. No, I don't think I'm so they they also the church has uh kind of made uh a difference between faith and work. They think faith is not work, and and and so you have to have faith so you don't do work, and they don't understand that God commands uh in first John, first John, um first John, where is that? 1 John 4. Anybody know where that is? Uh 1 John.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:58

This is his commandment that we should believe. Yeah, yeah, where's that up? 1 John 3 23.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:04

Uh are you there?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:06

Yeah. Well, I have it. Uh 1 John 3.23 says, and this is his commandment that we should believe on the name of his son, Jesus Christ, and love one another as he gave us commandment. Is that what you wanted?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:21

That's it, yeah. Yeah. So God is commanding, and even in Romans, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Command, believe, and you'll be saved. But the catch 22 is if you attempt to believe, now you're attempting a work, work of faith. God commanded it. Whatever God commands, God says, um, you know, uh, husbands love your wives, that's a command. Um, you know, raise your children well, and and and so forth, all the Ten Commandments. They're the commandments of God. This is his commandment. This is his commandment that ye believe. So we're commanded to believe. And so what numbers of people are doing are saying, I can keep that commandment, and by keeping the commandment to believe, I will become saved. And they've placed themselves under the law. They're they're doing a work that Galatians 2.16 says no man is justified by. And um that they've added work to grace. It it it's a little, you know, it's so it's almost hard to see. It's almost hard to see, especially with the confusion about faith and thinking, well, that's not a work. Uh and no, no, they they have done pretty much what the Jews did. The Jews were more, you know, don't don't do anything on the Sabbath day, get circumcised, offer sacrifices. So then they had many works. But but the church circumcise your heart. Yeah. Even there, they they didn't understand. They were they were going after physical circumcision rather than the spiritual circumcision.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:21

And Chris, getting back to Abraham, uh, I think a lot of the confusion uh also arises from, I mean, first of all, it's a it God did set a trap about believing and faith. And and uh, but in Romans 4, 3, it says, For for what saith the scripture, Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. There it is. He believed, you know, he believed God, and and then therefore God, you know, blessed him or you know, saved him. But um, you know, we have to realize that that word it is is talking about the faith uh or the works that you were talking about from the foundation of the world, the atonement. The atonement was counted unto him. Um and and also it could be translated as he. The word it could be translated as he, right? Um uh a personal pronoun. Uh Abraham believed God and he or Christ was counted unto him for righteousness. So uh yeah, the translators could could have translated it as he, but also it it served God's purpose to uh to hide the truth here, which he he does all over the place with many doctrines.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:42

Yet um going along with that, look at Hebrews 10. Hebrews 10 says um Hebrews 10 37 through 38 for yet a little while, and and he that shall come will come and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith. Yeah, just will live by faith. That's a quotation from Habakkuk. Yeah. Yeah. And in read that, are you there?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:16

Yeah, I was there. Yeah, I was gonna bring that up. You got you can read it, Bob, if you want.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:20

Well, I was gonna say, this is the only there's two verses in the Bible that uh in the Old Testament that uh have the word faith. And and you, Carl, I think it was you who brought up Deuteronomy, no, Gary, brought up 20, uh Deuteronomy 32, 20. But anyhow, back to 2.4. Behold, his soul, which is lifted up, is not upright in him.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:42

Well, Bob, Bob, read verse 3, because I read 3738. It'll show it matches.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:48

So uh let me turn. I don't have I'm not of a bar. I haven't printed, I haven't printed. I got it, Carl.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:55

You got it? Okay. Okay, so verse three. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak and not lie. Though it tarry, wait for it, because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:07

Now let me stop you there a second. Because in Hebrews it said he. Right? Here it says it. Just like in see the it's important for people to understand. In Romans it said it, and Bob pointed out it could be he. So here where where um uh uh obviously um uh it it says at the end, it shall speak. What's in it? What's in it that's gonna speak? Who's gonna speak? The spirit, the spirit, and not lie, though it tarry, though he tarry, wait for it, wait for him, because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Of course it's Christ, he will come, he will not tarry.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:54

Uh uh yeah, I'm sorry, Carl. Go ahead. No worries. All right, verse 4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him, but the just shall live by his faith. What did it say in Hebrews?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:07

It says, Now the just shall live by faith. By faith. So it's a quotation, and and you know, did um well um uh you know it's it's pretty pretty obvious, I think. That uh what Paul is the man that God used to write Hebrews. It uh we don't know that absolutely, but but um was it whoever wrote Hebrews, was it their decision to leave out the word his? No. It was God, all scripture given by inspiration of God. God intentionally left out the word his because he's in the whole New Testament, he's setting up the trap, the snare for those in the churches and congregations that it is their faith, man's faith, rather than Christ's faith. And here the just shall live by his faith, referring to Jesus, who again is the um, you know, he's faith himself.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:22

Romans 117 also mentions it's similar, for therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, the just shall live by faith.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:32

It's mentioned again there. We do have a we do have a hand raised. Uh yes, Louisa.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:39

Yes, good evening, everyone. Good evening. I remember hi I I remember um our common mentor, the late Bible teacher Carol Camping. He said the drawing process could take a long time or many years. And and then he he thinks he thought that nobody could know exactly the the day, the time they were saved, like a lot of people in church, they say, I'm saved this day, I accepted Jesus. So uh Brother Chris just mentioned Rahab that he he uh heard the word of God um that about the Red Sea, you know, all that, and so we cannot determine that would be the point that she was saved, right? Because apparently she was being drawn, and the whole town, many people heard, but the Holy Spirit would have to apply salvation, but we can't say that was the time the Holy Spirit applied salvation. Is that what that is my question? At what point was she saved?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:06

Well, we we don't know exactly, um, although she was she was a harlot and um the harlot's house, so she was using her house for harlotry, and uh it it you know, um um it was 40 years earlier that they crossed the Red Sea. We don't know how old Rahab was, but um probably uh she she was younger than 40, to you know, uh or or well that that's not too important. But but at some point, maybe growing up, uh, because this would have been widely known in the area for 40 years, it was reported and spread that, you know, uh, I mean, just just think of the the how great uh an event that is, the deliverance of a nation out of the the greatest nation on earth at that time, Egypt, to the point that Egypt's destroyed their whole army perishes in the sea, Pharaoh dies. And oh oh, it would have been the talk um of the land of Canaan and all around that area. Uh people people would have been amazed, and it reached her ears. Maybe she heard it a story as a child, and now as they're getting close, they they're aware that Israel's right across the river. Now uh the circumstances of her life are probably making her uh you know, consider how she's been living, and and God uses the word she's heard maybe decades ago um to bless her, and and so she she is saved. I I don't know if that's how it was exactly, but but um she was saved at that point because she was justified by works, God says.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:20

Um Chris, it might remind me of the Queen of Sheba, because she she heard about Solomon's, then she traveled to Solomon, then you know it could be the same drawing process as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:32

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so um uh well Rahab, Rahab the harlot's house, it's it's an incredible spiritual picture because that's where everyone eventually had to go. They had to go into the harlot's house to live if you were inside Jericho, and and that's because uh Babylon the harlot. So the the walls of Jericho falling down were a picture of the judgment on the church, the Jubilee descending forth, and and uh everyone had to leave the church and go to Babylon, so to speak. Uh so it was kind of humbling for the the people of Jericho to have to enter into a harlot's house in order to be delivered from the coming destruction, just like it was humbling for the people of God. We had to leave the church and go out into the world, spiritual Babylon.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:29

But how about her family? Were they all saved?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:33

Well, I I don't I don't we it done because people went into her house doesn't mean they were Rahab was saved, but it doesn't mean others necessarily were, uh, we don't know. It's definitely a picture of salvation. Uh I want to mention another verse about Abraham and his faith, the phrase we just read in Habakkuk in Romans 4, Romans 4, it says in verse 4, and the same verse 2 was if Abraham were justified by works, he is where of the glory, but not before God. Verse 4, now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. If you try to work, you're under the law, and now you the wages of sin is you broke the law, and one if you break the law in one point you're guilty of all. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. His faith, not see, it really helps see in Habakkuk. That's Christ's faith when it says his faith. And here it can't be Abraham's faith because faith is a work. And if you try to do the work, you're you're going to be a debtor to the law. So it is Christ's faith, his faith that is counted for righteousness, just like it said in verse 3. For what saith the scripture, Abraham believed God, and and there's that misdirection. Oh, yeah, but it says Abraham believed. That's what God is uh, you know, some people don't understand this. God wrote the Bible uh again and again like a trap, like like you're walking in the forest, and all of a sudden, uh the ground opens up and and you're caught, you're snared. That's practically every verse in the Bible, but especially when it comes to faith, um uh what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God. So look at Abraham, but it's really over here with Christ, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Forget what Abraham believed. Abraham believed because God saved him, and he was justified, and he had the spirit, so he had the fruit of the spirit, which was belief, but that didn't save him. That's the product of being saved, and the pronoun it was counted. He was counted unto him for righteousness, his faith is counted for righteousness, like verse five says.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:18

Yeah, a lot of atheists like to bring up the two uh apparent contradicting verses where it says, uh, was not Abraham justified by works, but then it says for justify justified by faith. Because I went to one of their websites, they had those two verses to make it seem like it's contradicting.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:35

No, well, it definitely appears to be a contradiction, and yeah. And uh and the thing is, it it takes uh quite a while to explain. You know, it's not like you can you can just say it in a single statement. You have to uh lay it out and explain it, and um, but that's how God has designed it. Uh God fosters unbelief in unbelievers.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:05

Who didn't give them faith? Unto the forward, he is forward, or unto the perverse, he is perverse, so they can't see him.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:12

There's there's a great verse in uh John 8. Uh one of my favorites. Um, Jesus is having a dialogue with the Pharisees, and and he says in verse 45, and because I tell you the truth, you believe Pissio G4100, which which is related to faith, ye believe me not. So they tell you the truth, you believe me not. It's it's an amazing verse. Also, I I had let me a list of some uh apparent contradictions, and you know, one of one of the I don't know, we don't have much time, but um 1 Corinthians 1 21 for after that in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Right? To save them there so it it's it looks like it's putting the cart before the horse again. But in a sense in in this in this verse, you can almost substitute uh to save them that bel them that believe are the elect. Right? And but but they don't believe until after they receive the the Holy Spirit. Uh they don't you know they don't believe until after they're saved. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:38

They can believe without works. That the the verse that was previously stated, they're believing without works. Yeah.

unknown 1:24:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:47

It's Christ's work they believe, but not theirs.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:50

I was thinking too, they they always say, like, you have your verses. I haven't I think someone has said that in the past five verses.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:56

Yeah, Pastor told me that one time.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:58

Yeah. And I'm thinking like, but then you gotta you gotta we can't just separate God's word like that. Yeah, it all has to be combined to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:07

Yeah. Well, maybe that's the wine that you know God gives to those that are ready to perish. You know, He He gives them though the wine that to soothe them. And uh I don't know if on a deeper level, if that's comforting, these people, as far as they know, you know, they're gonna see the Lord, which is which is awful, but you know, they do have a confidence. They do have a they have a confidence of their own works, of their own doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:35

So, Gary Gary, a little bit earlier you mentioned about um how you're trying to figure out what that means uh when it says oh um owe ye a little faith, right? And I I don't know, I'm I'm not saying I have the answer, but there is a verse in Matthew that made me think of uh Matthew 17, 20. It says, And Jesus said unto them, Even because of your unbelief, for verily I say unto you, if you had faith as a grain of a mustard seed, and you shall say unto this mountain, remove hence to yonder place, and it shall remove, and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:04

Yeah, I read that verse, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:06

Oh, did you? Oh, I must have missed it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:08

Yeah, you know, Chris was saying he's not sure if that's what it means, but I I just wanted to mention that it was tip it's interesting that the centurion who was not of Israel had great faith, and yet those that were in the house of Israel, the the elect, the disciples, they had little faith. So I wondered if that had anything to do with the spiritual activity going on in it.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:30

Well, I I didn't really comment on that. Uh Christ is the musser seed. That's right. So so um what what's that verse? He that is least in the kingdom of God is greater. Christ is the least. And and so he's also the greater. So that might answer both, right? Right, because little faith doesn't mean he's the little faith and he's the great faith.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:53

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:54

And um and and so uh it has to be Christ. Right. Um it can't be the man, the Roman man's faith of himself, because all men have not faith. Right. Um, so he he could have been saved by that time, but right.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:11

And the Holy Spirit was poured out into the world. And we do know that, you know, like you would say, Chris, God saved the best for last. So I was wondering if that had anything to do with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in terms of uh, you know, national Israel, the churches, and then also the world, when God would kind of expand his his outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:34

Uh well the last I think would be with the if you have gr if you have faith as a grain of mustard, you'll say this mountain be they'll remove because that's today. That's right. And um well, uh the Lord does ask the question when the Son of Man cometh, is that how it's put? Shall he find faith on the earth?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:55

Yeah, Luke 18. Um How is that put in verse eight? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? And what kind of faith? If it's the faith of Christ, uh uh you know, woman great is thy faith. So the people of God have the faith of Christ. Yeah, and the rest of the people world have not faith.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:36

So we can read that, shall he find Christ uh you know, Christ's faith on the earth?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:42

Well, it it's asking the question, and we I think we can when we look out there, we can definitely see why this question is asked. Church age is done, no faith in the church. Um in the world, in all the religions, there's no faith. In the secular world, there's definitely no faith. And we uh who are the elect, there's a great multitude, but sure when we look around, we just see very few, very few people. And um so it it would seem to to you know um relate to that idea that what we're witnessing, it it it it's almost where you get to the point, like, God, you know, do you have anybody here? Are you still doing your work here? Not work of faith to say, but where uh where are you working with your people, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:29:40

It's like Elijah feeling alone, you know, 7,000 have not bowed the knee.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:46

Here's a verse in uh 1 Peter that I I think addresses this uh somewhat, uh because you mentioned uh today and the time we're living in during judgment day, in First Peter 1 6 and 7, wherein you greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations, that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. We know that Jesus Christ appeared on May 21, 2011, uh in the sense that he came in judgment, uh, and judgment is continuing on right now through until uh biblical evidence pointing to 2033. So our our faith is being tested, tried with fire, the fire of judgment day, you know, uh like like Chris was saying, where where is everybody? Where we don't see anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:57

I wonder if we could substitute that word faith for salvation, the trial of your salvation, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:02

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what's being tested, right? Because before God brought uh the Egyptians into the promised uh the Israelites into the promised land, he had to try them to see what was in their heart. Because they all claim to be of Israel. You know, they're put to that 40 here, even though that represents the period from 1994.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:22

And it's really the trial of your Sabbath rest, if you think about it as well, because we're supposed to be resting in God's works. So those who are not truly saved, uh they won't be resting. They won't be able to.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:36

And and uh maybe we could read it, the trial of your Christ. You know, the testing of your Christ. Do you have the genuine Christ within? Do you actually have the Spirit of Christ? The the the uh you know, the trying of your faith, thy faith has saved thee. So Christ is our faith, and if he's in us, the trials, the afflictions, and everything, he'll show himself, right? He'll he'll come in our lives to prove or or uh he'll be revealed. He'll be revealed in our life. Whereas if we we don't have Christ when the fire is burning, then we do not endure and we go back, uh, we had no faith. We had all men have not faith. And uh like the gold, silver, precious stones endure the flame, wood, hay, stubble burned up. So it it it really is, yeah, a trial to see if we have that spirit of Christ within. Christ himself endured, he was obedient unto death. And I think that will be what he produces in his people obedience, faithfulness, and following the word.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:08

That reminds me of Proverbs twenty-four ten. That was the reference. If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small. Proverbs twenty-four ten. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:23

If you love me, you obey my commandments, keep my commandments.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:28

Thy strength is small. That's interesting. Yeah. Um Philippians 4, we can do all I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. So if we faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is not God, it's not Christ. Therefore, I've got to be in mind. It's your own. You've been you've been you know, hanging on with white knuckle with your own strength. But our strength is great uh because it's Christ, and that's why we won't faint.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:06

And the word of God's like a stick just beating them off while they're hanging, you know, just like a nice doctrine, just bang, you know, and then they just lose the grip and they just fall because the word of God tries us, you know. We're he's holding on to us. But uh a good doctrine, man, a really good doctrine like Christ the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, or or something can come and just really knock someone right off.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:29

I'm always amazed that a lot of people get uh ensnared by by that uh teaching, or they they go back to Christ being slain uh paying for sins at the cross. That one seems to have been I always see that pop up. I don't know why that that's the one that I I understand that one.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:48

It's like you're telling because it's so obvious to people, you know. That that's like the first thing you hear when you hear the gospel. Christ paid for sins on the cross. Yeah, Jesus died for you on the cross. Even if you hear the true gospel, Christ, you know, he died for his elect on the cross. You you have that understanding, and you kind of build on that, and now at the end, oh uh God comes along. He says, Oh, by the way, you know that understanding you think you had that's all wrong. You're wrong. He didn't die for sins at the cross, he died at the foundation of the world, just just to inform you of that, right? The very last. And because it is like the entry point, the ground where they come in, and uh you're telling me I don't understand. If I don't understand that, I don't understand anything. Well, you know, that requires humility. Yeah, you have to be humble. If um, you know, it's basically shaking like the world's shaking in society. It's like shaking of our spiritual understanding that that and hell, uh, you thought you understood hell and hell is annihilation. Uh that's that's why God uh I think kept it in reserve until then, because it will shake out those who are who don't have a spirit of humility. And uh a natural man doesn't have a humble heart. It's just a fact. Nobody does. You know, we we all have flesh, so we all have sin there, but but the new heart is key. The new heart is humble, and you might fight against it at first and kick against the pricks, but eventually, oh you'll the Lord will bring you around because you have that new nature. But if you don't have the new nature, yeah, yeah, you won't.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:56

And they're they're wonderful doctrines, too. They're not you know, I mean, the no more salvation, you know, you understand that one. That one's hard to you know, even for God's elect. But the found Christ's paying for sins of the foundation, it's a beautiful doctrine that fits with the Bible. Annihilation.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:11

It's the rod of correction. It's the rod of correction. And and when you're getting when you're getting that whipping, it's at first grievous, but afterwards it brings the peaceable fruit of righteousness because the word of God is confirming it over and over again. So now we understand the rod of correction.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:29

And and and you know what? Um, that was prior to May 21, right? When we learned those doctrines, and it was like a little shaking, a little shake. It was actually preparing us for after May 21, because that was a shaking with confusion. That that's what happened. What do you mean there's no hell? We were confused, and and then you check it out. What do you mean Christ paid for sins at the foundational world? So it actually was some prep work preparing us for after May 21. Why didn't it happen? And and we had confusion, and then uh it was kind of okay, we wait on the Lord. I didn't understand the end of the church age at first, I didn't understand payment for sins at first, but I know I waited on the Lord and and and so it was kind of training us uh to and just and just so for people for people who are seeing this or hearing about this stuff for the first time, we're talking about May 21 in the year 2011, which is 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:34

It's it seems almost coming up to that anniversary, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:39

Yeah, yeah. I was thinking the cross is also very uh well, the foundation I'm sure was physical too, but the cross is very physical. A lot of people look to like the physical pain Christ suffered. So I wonder if they're very attached to that whole idea. Because what happened at the foundation, no one was there to witness it. It was all the way in eternity past. It's just just kind of in the past. So I think they're really attached to the idea of Christ, you know, there on the cross, it's being witnessed of him physically suffering.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:07

And and our stubbornness, and our stubbornness, you know. God is he's he's showing us the right way, and they're saying, Nope, you know, give us the leeks and the melons and the cucumbers and the un you know. They want to go back to what the world is doing too.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:21

Yeah, and in history can confirm, you know, crucifixion and that there was a Christ, but it can't confirm that Christ paid for sins at the foundation. So it's walking by faith, just trusting what the Bible.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:33

Yeah, only the Bible. In a sense, it's almost I hate to say it, but it uh, you know, the cross has become like an idol for those that want to trust in that as their means of salvation or their means of when their sins were paid for.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:51

Remember the serpent has been an idol with crucifixes, you know, is of Christ hanging on a cross all over many churches.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:59

But even in just a mental uh right, you know, even if you don't subscribe to those physical things, just having a mental idol of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:08

Well, yeah, yeah, it would it would be a high place, right? It would be a leftover from the church age that when they had partial knowledge, partial understanding, and and people want to maintain that because it it's too unsettling.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:27

Well, you know, it's interesting too, is the serpent that represent remember how that Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness?

SPEAKER_05 1:40:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:34

They were worship that was supposed to be right cross or Christ lifted up on the cross to represent that. Because he said, even as Moses lifted up the serpent, so must the son of man be lifted up. Well, that that same idol was worship later. The serpent, remember that? Hezekiah, I think, had it destroyed.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:50

Yeah, what was it, Tamas? Maybe?

SPEAKER_03 1:40:52

It was the bro bronze and serpent that they were worshipping in the city.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:56

Yeah, it was a snare to them, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:57

Yeah, they started worshiping it, and I just thought found that kind of interesting because that's supposed to represent what the the cross That's on an ambulance to this day.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:06

If you if you see an ambulance, you'll see that insignia.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:08

Oh really?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:09

I find it interesting because the bronze and serpent they were healed or their snake bites.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:14

The bronze and serpent is a demonstration, right, of the cross when that was lifted up. But the cross itself is a demonstration, so it's like a demonstration of a demonstration.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:25

Well, yeah. Yeah. I've been looking at that verse, looking at that verse in John 12, uh, that that um if I be lifted and I, if I be lifted up. And I wonder why he say if. Why did he say it? I I don't have the answer. Uh I'm just curious. And I, if I what it why doesn't it say, and I, when I am lifted up, um I will draw all men unto me. But it it it says if.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:59

Yeah, it's almost like leaving room for No, because because God said maybe, maybe because Christ said he didn't in in that verse in the context, neither the son.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:10

So if he's saying if, you know, maybe there is that that possibility of not experiencing the previous verse says uh that that uh what what's it say, the devil will be cast out, the prince of this world?

SPEAKER_04 1:42:24

Now is the judgment of this world, now how shall the prince of this world be cast out?

SPEAKER_02 1:42:32

And and then the next verse is and I, if I be lifted up. And and then if you go on in uh John twelve and read further, um that was in verse thirty-one thirty-two, and it does say this he said, signifying by what death he should die. Yeah. Then they say in verse thirty-four, the people answered him, We have heard now of the law, the Christ abideth forever. And how sayest thou the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man? And then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you, walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you, for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth, while ye have light, believe in the light, they may be the children of light. That's related to the lifting up.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:25

Isaiah, right? Isaiah 60.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:29

He said that to the uh Pharisees.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:31

Remember Isaiah 60 that darkness is over the land?

SPEAKER_02 1:43:35

It may be, and also, Son of Man, lifted up is found in John three, where where you read about the serpent, it's the same word in John three, and um it says in in John three, verse fourteen, and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up. Get it, it refers to Christ as the son of man, just like it does in John 12, that whosoever believeth on him, and then a little further on it talks about light in verse um verse 19, and this is the condemnation that light has come into the world, and men love darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, thus his deeds should be reproved. So there's something there, a little uh it definitely sounds like the cross lifted up, uh, but something something else that that God's hiding.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:44

The part where it says signifying what death he should die. Doesn't that remind you of what he told Peter?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:49

Mm-hmm. He said 21.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:51

Yeah, what does that say? How didn't it say use the same words signifying? Yeah, he spake signifying by what death he should glorify God. And uh I'm just wondering too, remember when Jesus was in the garden and he said, you know, he was praying that the cup of wrath might pass, you know, if um it was almost like there's a possibility, but nonetheless he still had to do it. And this is talking about what death he should signify, so could it relate somehow?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:21

Well, I'm I'm thinking, you know, it says, ye are the children of light, or or ye are the light of the world, the people of God are the light, we're the body of Christ. With Peter and John 21, he's representing the body of Christ. This is the death that that um you know signify is used, take up your cross, follow me. So we we followed the word into hell, like Christ followed the word into hell. We were the light, and and the light went out on the world, so it it's like Christ, who is the light and the body of Christ, who are the light bearers, all the gospel lights went out. And and so um, and I, if I be lifted up, if the light be be taken away uh at a time of judgment, uh then I will draw all men unto me. That that's why I'm interested in it, because uh is I will draw all men, like with the drawing of the the great catch of fish.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:35

And um that darkness too, it seemed to tie in with Isaiah 60. For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people. Yeah, I think you mentioned it's a dark it's a darkness of understanding, right? Like their understanding has been dark. So with that tying with John with the darkness, um is in that uh walkway you have the light, because when the darkness comes, you also lose understanding, or you or you don't have understanding. Lest darkness come upon you, for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:07

Almost like tribulation. But um, you know, it uh this has been an excellent.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:13

Does anyone else have anything they'd like to share before we it says in verse 31, John 12, 31, it says the prince of this world be cast out. Well, he was cast out at the cross, but he was also dethroned on May 21, 2011. Is that kind of like what you're looking at, Chris?

SPEAKER_03 1:47:31

Well, I think he said he was cast down, right? Versus cast out.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:34

Cast out, you know, uh there's many verses that talk about casting out devils. And and it point casting out devils points to salvation. And so salvation is basically a spiritual picture of casting out devils. So when God saved everyone of the bride is ready, the devils cast out completely from the body of Christ, right? We we know like the man with legion, true elect children of God could actually have had devils, but it even the figurative sense, if you're in your sin, you're in darkness, you're children of wrath, even as others, you're you're uh definitely you know involved with sin and Satan at that point. But once God saved everyone by May 21, 2011, the prince of this world is cast out of the whole company of the elect.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:35

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:36

Yeah. And and now is the judgment of this world. And and so that would fit with the second statement, you know, bring of the fish which you have now caught. At that point, it or in after that, after the salvation of everyone, there'll be, I will draw all men unto me.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:56

Did you know too that in in Revelations, when it mentions um coming out of Babylon, come out of her, my people. If you look up those three words, come out of her, it's used um uh the same way when Jesus was um pulling out an unclean spirit, I think all three words. Like Mark 5.8, for he said unto him, Come out of the man, that thou thou unclean spirit. It's the same exact three words, come out of her. So I'm wondering if is you know how Jesus forcefully you know uh pulled the uh evil spirits out. I is that the same idea, I wonder, with pulling out the elect.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:33

That's interesting. I know because normally it's it's the evil spirit that goes. Not there, you know, the people of God coming out.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:45

They cast us out. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:48

But if God would be doing the same thing. Well, they've been they've been trying to do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:52

The world has been trying to do that for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:55

They thrust they thrust us out.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:56

But that kind of shows the forceful drawing, if that's the case, right? Because if he's forcing, and they they weren't coming out like willingly. Remember how some of them tore when they were being pulled out? They were they were resisting or they tore the person.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:10

Yeah. So I wonder Yeah, they rent them sore.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:13

Yeah. But it's it's not just that one verse, it's it's also used uh Mark 125, Jesus rebuked him saying, Hold thy peace and come out of him. And came out of the grave. Oh, it's also used in um Matthew 27, came out of the graves after his resurrection. All three words are used there too, having to do with the resurrection.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:34

Excellent.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:34

That's curious too.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:38

He was cast out of you know, you know, wasn't Jonah spit out of the whale? Yeah, we could look up that word and see.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:44

That point, that point's the resurrection of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:47

Yeah, cast out.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:48

Immediately, uh, right that when uh I actually looked up the word scientific term for vomiting is uh a meritus projectile or something like that. And um it's an involuntary act, right? Death cannot hold its prey. It must. Like when you have to vomit, you must you get that that uh taste. Yeah, and you can maybe try to hold it back, but but it's coming out, and so the three days and three nights completed, gotta come out. Gotta death can't hold because the payments made. Gotta remove or release uh Christ.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:34

Oh, so that was three days that he was in the would that tie in with um I know there's a verse in Matthew that talks about the three days. Well, yeah, Jesus said, as Jonah, so shall the Son of Man. No, but there's another, isn't there another reference about three days? Um besides him being in the I think it says after three days. Um can't remember where that is. It I don't think it has to do with his resurrection, though. Oh, maybe I'm thinking of the spoiling. They were doing they were spoiling it says after three days. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I'm thinking of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:08

Oh, folks, it's almost midnight. I really enjoyed this this uh topic, faith and its many facets. Perhaps we can revisit this again because there's much to discuss here. Well, we really enjoyed you joining the Bible Exalted Program. So Lord willing, we hope to see you again the next time. Uh may the Lord richly bless you during this time of judgment. Good night.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:35

You've just heard a pre recording of an e Bible fellowship panel discussion.