Ep. 14: Who Becomes a Scientist — and How Science Shows Up for Communities

Scientific discovery doesn’t begin in the lab; it begins with people. Who sees themselves as a scientist, who feels prepared to pursue and sustain a career in STEM, and how communities engage with and trust science all shape the future of health care.

In this episode, host Allison Brashear, MD, MBA, vice president for health sciences and dean of the Jacobs School of Medicine and Biomedical Sciences, speaks with Melissa McCartney, PhD, and Jennifer Surtees, PhD, about how education, identity and community engagement influence the scientific workforce and its connection to society.

Dr. McCartney, an associate professor of pharmacology and toxicology, studies how students develop scientific identity and career readiness — and why belonging, confidence, and skill development are critical to who enters and remains in STEM fields. Dr. Surtees, professor and chair of biochemistry and associate dean for undergraduate education and STEM outreach, leads innovative efforts to bring authentic, inquiry‑based science into classrooms and communities through initiatives such as UB’s Genome, Environment and Microbiome (GEM) Community of Excellence.

Together, they explore how early experiences shape whether students see a place for themselves in science, why hands‑on and community-connected learning is essential, and how educators can better align training with the realities of today’s scientific careers. The conversation also highlights how community-engaged research can strengthen public understanding of — and trust in — science, particularly when it reflects the health and environmental concerns of local populations.

Through their work, Drs. McCartney and Surtees are helping to build a more inclusive, prepared, and community-connected scientific workforce, one that is essential to advancing health care innovation and equity in Western New York and beyond.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hello everyone and welcome back to the UB Medicine Podcast. I'm Dr. Allison Burchier, the Dean of the Jacobs School of Medicine and Biomedical Sciences, and Vice President for Health Sciences here at the University at Buffalo. Today we're talking about something that shapes the future of healthcare long before a patient walks into the clinic. Who becomes a scientist, who stays in science, and how science connects to the communities it serves. Scientific discovery alone doesn't determine the future of healthcare, but it's so very, very important. That future also depends on whether people can see themselves as scientists, whether they feel prepared for scientific work, and whether communities understand and importantly trust the science that affects their lives. Joining me here today are two Jacob School leaders whose work speaks directly to these questions. Dr. Melissa McCartney studies how students develop a scientific identity and career readiness, and why belonging and skill development matter who for remains in science and most importantly, STEM. Dr. Jennifer Surtes brings real inquiry-driven science into the classrooms and communities, helping learners and community members engage directly with research that affects their lives. Melissa and Jennifer, thank you for being here today. Dr. Melissa McCartney is an associate professor of pharmacology and toxicology and a nationally recognized leader in STEM education research. She also co-directs an NIH-funded T32 print training program that integrates career development into the PhD education. She is associate dean for undergraduate education here at the Jacobs School. And Dr. Jennifer Surtes is professor and chair of biochemistry, and she is also the director of STEM outreach. And I know both of you have been really involved. And Jennifer, you've had a longstanding involvement with our Buffalo community. I just want to thank you both for being here.

unknown 2:15

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

So the first question is really you know, research shows that students often begin to study where they belong in science earlier than many people recognize, some as early as, you know, in in before even middle school or high school. So Melissa, let me start with you. What signals positive or negative shape whether students can begin to see themselves as scientists?

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Right. So seeing yourself as a scientist is a form of identity. So scientific identity. And there's three main parts to scientific identity. The first is interest. So are you interested in science? I hope so. The second one is performance and competence. So do you see yourself performing science in a scientific setting? And the third is recognition. So do other people see you as a scientist? So when you're young, the biggest component to build that identity is interest. Because you're not really worried about performing or recognition yet. So these early experiences that Jennifer works with are really critical to start building that first foundational piece of scientific identity.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

So Jennifer, do you want to touch that? Yeah, yeah, I was just gonna say, and I think that it's important when we when we are working with young stuff, young children, young students, you know, to make the connection between the things that they like, the things that they are interested in, and then bringing out the idea that this is this is science, this is exploration, this is model building, this is trying to figure out how the world works. And that's what science ultimately is.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

So can you speak specifically to belonging and confidence, just as important as the content of the interest, right? I think we um want to have faculty and students here that excite students in our community about the possibility of following in their footsteps. So comment about the importance of belonging and confidence.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Sure, I'll I'll start. Um so once you get to our level, the undergrad grad sort of level, your interest has kind of peaked. So we hope by the time you decide to go for advanced education and science that you are interested in science. And what has been shown to kind of overtake the interest in pushing you towards your identity is your sense of belonging. And so sense of belonging has a lot of different definitions and a lot of different contexts. But in my lab, we study three things. So you're are you valued? Do the faculty and staff around you value you? Do they want you here? Um, social acceptance, so your peers, do you get along with your peers? Do they want you here? Are you collaborative? And then third is involvement. So are you contributing to the community, to the institution? Um, and those three things together make up your sense of belonging, which by the time you're at the undergraduate level, does over override your interest.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yeah, so I think with especially younger, so I really do work with a broad range of students, like starting in kindergarten and through high school. So um, and I think that seeing other people who look like them, so graduate students and undergraduate students in the classroom and in the community doing science and being excited about doing science and talking about how this really cool thing, extracting DNA from strawberries, how that then connects to the work that we do in the lab, seeing people that they can kind of see as peers really helps them feel like this is something that they can really do. And in all of the kind outreach that I do, what drives it is community building and trying to build connections between people, near peer mentors, more distant mentors, and but and within the students themselves teaching each other. Um, and it all serves to make them feel like they belong and they are contributing even before they get to be the at the undergraduate level.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

So, can we talk a little bit more about you talked about making science real. Can you give us a specific example of what you've been doing to make it real for the students in the community, maybe those high school students, middle school, et cetera?

SPEAKER_01 6:37

So there are two examples I will give uh briefly. So one is a second grade. So we go into second grade classrooms and we have this workshop that we have developed, but that focuses on the microbiome. And so the microbiome is a community of microbes that live in, on, and around us. And we teach little kids to wash their hands and we teach them that microbes are bad. But in reality, microbes are really important in keeping them healthy, in make helping us digest food, in priming our immune system. And so that's what we want to share with them and the all of the good things the microbes do. So we go in, we find out what they know and what they are interested in knowing, and then we um then we give them some information, and then we have them do an experiment. And it's a very simple experiment, but they sample themselves. They sample their head, they sample their skin, they've grown it on a plate, um, and then they can see what actually grows. They can make a hypothesis, they can compare with their peers. Um, when we come back the second day, they can draw what they see, they can write what they see. So we're bringing in all of these different skills, but always talking about how the microbes are part of our environment and part of what keeps us healthy. Um, and then we do like to bring in the art in the last session where they create their own microbes to um and then tell stories about their their own microbe. Um, at the high school level, I'm really excited to have a community lab that we've established on the Buffalo Niagara Medical Campus, where we are right now going into high schools and giving them some background information. But starting next week, we have a set of high school students that will be on the Buffalo Niagara Medical Campus in this special lab that is dedicated for them to actually contribute to the work that is part of my NIH-funded um research.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

That's so exciting. And I think that makes such a big difference when students, particularly that live in the Buffalo community, can see that they see someone that is like them doing this, and we've had several very successful um faculty come that are come from our community, and that's so important. Um, so let's see just talk a little bit about um the hands-on experience and inquiry and and Melissa, maybe this gets to your idea of the belonging. How does that sense of belonging translate to getting students who are high school students? May 1st is decision day where high school students decide where they want to go. We hope everybody listening to this had picked UB and the Jacob School. But how do we get students to just say, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to the Jacob School and study science?

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah, so I think Jennifer does a lot of that foundation laying and what we've said before. Um it's seeing people like you doing science. Um, and once you see people like you, you start to develop those um relationships. So the value um you're valued by people in your community, you interact with the peers in your community, um, and you're involved in your community. And those are kind of the three pillars needed to start building that sense of belonging.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

That's wonderful. So, how can educators um connect students who are taking coursework to actually the skills that they really use? So, Melissa, you know, um it's one thing, you know, people are taking these courses, but how does that how do we how do we get them to connect that this is going to be meaningful?

SPEAKER_02 10:18

I spent a lot of time thinking about this. It's simpler than you think. So a lot of times our graduating seniors will see some kind of opportunity in the research enterprise that says something like, Oh, you need two years of project management to apply. And they panic, they, you know, throw the opportunity away and they say, Oh, well, I don't have that. But they do have that because any lab they have been in has been a project management experience, right? No lab goes perfect from start to finish. Something happened, they had to pivot, they had to figure out another way to do it. And it's just making that simple connection, like you do have project management skills. We just call it intro chem lab instead of project management experience. So very small connections like that. The other one is communication skills. They will all tell you they have no communication skills, but they do. Every class they're in, they stand up and give some kind of presentation, they write something, they post something on social media. Those are all communication skills, and it's just helping them make that connection that they have been doing it.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

And and I think pedagogically, Melissa makes a really important point about helping students make that connection because we often assume that they know why we're having them do a presentation in class or why we're having them develop some uh piece of writing or something, but really I think making it very explicitly clear why this is good for them, why it's gonna help them, help them, I think is something that's really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

I think one of the things we've also been doing in terms of particularly the undergraduate work that you both are involved in is the Jacob School is one of six schools that is a medical school that gives out bachelors. And that's a big opportunity for students who come here to graduate with a bachelor's from a medical school. And it can be any number of things neuroscience, you know, biomedical science, laboratory science. People can learn hard skills about how to work in a laboratory. I met one of our students recently, and she graduated with a bachelor's, and she works in one of our hospitals running the micro studies. And I thought that is incredible. And so that's a thing that we need to get students to understand that if you come to the Jacob School at UB, one, it's a really special experience because you're in an environment that's quite rare. Second, not everybody who comes here is going to be a dentist or a doctor. They may get a PhD, like the both of you, they may get a master's, they may get a bachelor's and go work in any number of places. So, how do we tell that story a bit more clearly?

SPEAKER_02 13:00

I think about this a lot too. Um, we have a new course just starting this spring. Um, it's uh a career development course for the undergraduates. Um, and we spend a lot of time doing this exact thing. So we go deep. I have everybody, you have to find a career that's not an MD, but is within the biomedical sciences, and they go deep. We do a bunch three days kind of investigating these jobs, what they require, what they look like. Um we do all kinds of analysis, you know, how much money do you make? Do you work on the weekends, all very deep on these jobs? Then to build the communication skills, they have to share it out with each other. So they learn about all the jobs that everybody else found. And it's sort of this little um crowdsourcing kind of learn about other careers with a biomedical degree. So we do do that in this course, and starting in the fall, it's going to be required. So all of our undergraduate majors, or sorry, the biomedical science majors will take the course, which is the biggest major. Um, we also are starting to have them do informational interviews where they actually have to go out and meet someone and talk about their career. So we're connecting with the UB alumni, the connectable database, trying to get them to talk to UB graduates, meet with them, learn more about their career, learn how to do this networking and this information building. Um, so yeah, so they can learn how flexible their degree is and how many options are in front of them.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Yeah, and I think I think you know, one of the other things that we can do is is just again making explicit the the connection between what they're learning in the classroom and and what's happening in the hospitals across the street and how what we do in the labs and what they're learning in the classroom really, really connect and impact um health directly.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

So let's actually take that classroom to career and community and kind of build on that conversation. Um, you know, we talk about what happens when students choose science, but then um staying staying in STEM and a STEM major doesn't necessarily guarantee workforce readiness. So what else do students need to do? And you talked about presentation skills, but what else do we think that students need?

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Yeah, I think they really just need coaching on how to, because I I think a lot of our programs are content heavy, which makes sense. We know a lot of content about biomedical sciences. They have a lot of things to learn, and that's very important. Um, but learning how to translate that into a job application or a graduate uh school application, um, I think that that's a different skill set. And that's what we're doing in this class, like really learning how to identify your skills, you know, show how they are transferable, and learning how to market yourself. Like I think, especially now in these days and age, I think the people who market themselves the best as someone with flexible skills and a diverse skill set are gonna go the furthest in the in the workforce.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

That's a great point. That's something that I know um I was way back a chemistry major, never in a million years, did anybody talk about that. But you're so right, particularly as we are hearing, you know, that there's a becoming more constrained workforce. And our students are graduating with amazing skills. They volunteer, they work in labs, they have a deep knowledge of science, but getting them to be able to have an elevator pitch.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

We do that in the class too.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Excellent, an elevator pitch. Oh, I love that. I love that. Um, could we talk a little bit about community engaged science programs? And so, how do we use what we do here to build public trust in science? There's been a lot of questions out there about public trust. We're in a unique situation because our medical school is in downtown in the middle of Buffalo. How do we use that platform to re-engage the community in public trust of science?

SPEAKER_01 17:05

So I think that it is really important to come at this from a partnership perspective. And I talked about community building earlier. Um, I think it is not appropriate for us to go out into the community and just say, look, this is aren't we amazing, aren't we doing great things? I think we do this with schools. We go in, we engage with the teachers or community leaders or whatever the leaders of the organizations that we're partnering with to understand what they need and how what we bring can actually augment or supplement what they're doing. Um, and so it's not assuming that we know anything, it's really spending the time talking and building the partnerships, developing an advisory committee of different people involved in an organization so that everybody kind of has a voice. And again, spending the time to build that, to build, to build that partnership and to have those conversations. I think that starts to really build the trust. Um and by having those partnerships in place, then you actually have a platform on which to build, and then you can keep adding on as as appropriate and as needed. I think it's really important for the public to see how science works and to understand that it is an evolving process, that it takes us time to learn how things work, that we make mistakes, but we learn from those mistakes. And being really forthright about that process and demonstrating it when possible, I think is a really powerful way of building partnerships, building trust, and building scientific literacy.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

That's terrific. So I will ask each of you, but if you had unlimited barriers, Jennifer, um, what would you scale immediately?

SPEAKER_01 19:07

I would scale our ability, our capacity to get into every classroom. We I told you about the second grade microbiome workshop that we have. My dream is for every second grade classroom in Western New York to know that in April UB is gonna come in and they're gonna do the microbiome workshop with them. And similar activities at all of the different grade levels where we have an infrastructure, we have a workforce, and we have the partnerships to bring this exciting, fun stuff into every classroom.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Mentoring programs for the undergraduates with research faculty, with clinicians, with each other, some peer mentoring going on. Absolutely. Mentoring all the way.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

That's wonderful. Well, um, it's both exciting, and I know that we recently had some particular outreaches to some local communities that is really exciting. Um, I'd like to close with one final question. Um, if there's one idea that you hope listeners take away about the future of science and health in Western York, what would it be? And I'll start with you, Jennifer.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

That it's really important for people to have an okay. So one of the things that I think is really important is that people appreciate the importance of science in terms of how the process the process that we use to understand how our bodies work and how things can go wrong, and then how we can fix them. And that is a partnership between scientists in the lab and clinicians in the clinic. And there are a lot of careers and opportunities along that continuum, and I hope that people see that as an opportunity for building the health and wellness of Western New York.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

You're absolutely right because no discoveries are made just in the clinic or just in the lab. It's really that continuum. So, Melissa, if you um, what would your thoughts on how to transform health and bring science in Western New York?

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Yeah, I think expanding the health and science workforce in Western New York takes a village. It takes all of us, and we can all do our small part. So answer your emails when a student reaches out about mentoring, take those informational interview opportunities to speak with a student. And I think, you know, we can all do our small part to keep a student engaged and interested and get them into the STEM workforce.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

And my takeaway is you start early in grade school, sounds like second grade, right? Absolutely. And that's when you get that excitement about science. So I want to thank you both for being here today and really for the thoughtful conversation. About how to strengthen science, education, and build and maintain community trust. I'm Dr. Allison Brashier, and this is the UB Medicine Podcast. Thank you for listening, and we look forward to continuing our conversation about innovation, discovery, and the future of health in Western New York.