Gerry Brown and Sonia Caputo-Nimbark discuss groove

Gerry’s guest this episode is Sonia Caputo-Nimbark, Archives Manager at Sony Music Entertainment. For over 15 years, Sonia has been excavating Sony Music Entertainment’s collection of original recordings, historic photos and documents, and other ephemera to support projects like the Michael Tilson Thomas box set and the Bob Dylan biopic, A Complete Unknown. Gerry and Sonia discuss the role of an archivist and the importance of preserving arts and culture.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Hello everyone. Joey Brown here on the Goof Don't Lie Podcast. Every guest we have is extremely special. But today, this is something that is exceptional. In that this person doesn't play an instrument. However, what they do is very so very important in our lives. The person that I'm speaking about is Miss Sonia Caputo Nimbark. So what does she do? She's an archivist. She is the archivist. It's only an archivist. Like a librarian. Well, that's kinda simple, but uh how about a steward of music culture? Guardian of groove patron of history. Viscount of vinyl. The things that she does all impact the soundtrack in the memory of our lives. I give you Miss Tonya Caputo Limbor. My first question to you, what does an archivist at Sony Music actually do? And what responsibility comes with preserving a century and more of recorded music?

SPEAKER_03 2:21

It's a great question, and thank you for saying and more, because yeah, our uh our media really goes back to wax cylinders practically. I mean, we go back to the year 1900 and it's an impressive collection. So I will say that I manage a portion of the digital library because everything now must be digitized, and as well as the photo library, which is massive. And on top of that, I also manage the label copy library, which deals with the historical documentation of recorded sound, and that dates back to the year 1900. So we're talking detailed information about track releases, albums, composers, musicians, songwriters, producers on every kind of format you can imagine. So, Jerry, this is no, you know, you're familiar with this, but 10-inch LPs, 12-inch LPs, mono, stereo, A side, B side. We have an extensive card catalog system. And uh, you know, producers or people who are doing reissues of box sets will come and say they need all of the data that's on those cards. And a librarian such as myself, we need to procure that. So it's a lot of work, tons of research, a lot of dedicated time has to go into this. Um, also, we keep in mind that not everything is just going to be used for uh physical purposes. Now we have streaming. So when things are put on Spotify, we need all of the original information about those recordings. And that information lives in the archive. Um, it's really an honor to work with it. I mean, nobody really gets to see it. So it's really cool to have access to it. And I guess that's also part of the responsibility, right? Because we're the gatekeepers, like you say, and uh we are the ones who need to monitor and make sure that it's going into the right hands and that it is not adulterated, you know, that it is staying in its purest, truest form, that everything is accurate, and it really is an honor to get to work with some of those tracks. So um another aspect would be the photos. And you and I have talked about this, but that Dylan movie, right? Uh complete unknown.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

I was thinking about that.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

If you looked at that movie, you see how authentic it looked, right? I mean, it really you felt like you know, this was really Bob Dylan and everything about it, the whole, the air, the environment, it felt very authentic. And the everything came from the photos in the archive. You know, it was basically like we pulled the photos, the people making the films, they saw that and they created those images based on what we gave. So it's really cool to see our work on the big screen like that, how it translated so beautifully and how polished it looked. So, excuse me, it was really uh it was it's really interesting doing that kind of work. Also with Springsteen, all the biopics, those images come from places and the places, the archives, we're we're the ones behind the scenes pulling it all together. We don't do it for the credit, we never do, but it really it's credit to us when we get to see it up there.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

So anybody who saw the Springsteen movie or the Dylan movie, all the things that you saw. It was Sonia's signature under that.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

We we were the ones pulling those pictures and sending them up for approval and making sure that you know this was a great representation of the artist. Because, you know, you and I talk about honoring the music. We want to honor the artist, and we have to make them look uh as you know as good as they can, but we also have to stay true to our collection. And so we're not photoshopping those things. This is real, you know, these are real photos, and not all of them are great, but it's it is what it is. So that's a big thing about being an archivist. It's like you have to maintain the integrity of the archive, and that is important.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Sometimes I'm reminded of uh uh a bit of a uh it's kind of like a saying that's sometimes when they talk about maybe uh blues or something like that, and they may speak of a specific song and they say yeah, that song still has the grease on it. That's what makes the magic. So so photos and all that, yeah, yeah, they may not be, you know. No, it's not AI because some of those photos, they still have this grease on it, and some photos that some people have never seen.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

Oh, yes. We we see that all the time. It's like even the biggest fans, they don't see the ones that don't make it to the album, you know? They they'll see the the cover that everyone knows. They'll see Bob Dylan walking down the street with his arm around his girlfriend, Susie, at the time, right? They'll see that. They don't see the hundreds of photos that didn't make the cut. And I think that in those pictures, we see the story. We see them goofing around, we see him laughing and maybe sneezing. You know, it's it's those stories that make them human. And I love being able to have access to that. It really that's where the magic is for me. It's not the the finished uh polished result, it's all the little pieces that get you there, it's all the stuff that's behind the scenes. That that's the magic.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

So when you walk in like you did today. When you walk into the uh archive each morning, what are you most aware of first? The history? Or is it the responsibility or the emotional weight, or all of that?

SPEAKER_01 8:50

And maybe and maybe something else.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

I think first I make sure that there are no alarms or strobe lights going off because the archive has gotta be temperature controlled. So when all of that is calm, and usually it is, I think that it's a combination and it's also walking this fine line between honoring the art, the musician, the company's collection, and also dealing with what people may want. So, you know, if uh, like I uh you and I have to discuss this as well, but they might be looking for a photo, but if we don't have what they want, we're not gonna fudge it. You know, we need to honor what we do have within the collection. And I am not going to break that. You know, I am only sticking with what we have. There is a tremendous responsibility, there's an emotional responsibility as well, because we're guarding things that people love. You know, there's people are very attached to music, to uh the history of music, and there's a sensitivity in that as well. So a lot of musicians, as you also know, they're very private. So, how do we deal with that then? You know, we don't want to expose too much, we don't want to make these musicians vulnerable. We want to honor their privacy and not exploit anything. Exploitation is not part of what we do. So it's honoring um the request of the artist to also have some privacy as well and not overshare. So I think an archivist has to use a lot of discretion every day in our responsibilities.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Next question, like from your perspective. How do you or can you define groove and can you still be uh can it can it still be felt inside the archive?

SPEAKER_03 10:49

That is a very interesting question, and I probably won't give as polished and advanced an answer as many of you many of your uh musician guests. So I'm going to explain this as a human being first, what groove is to me. And that is um, I think about an experience I had with my daughter when I was driving in the car with her, and she was not feeling well because kids get sick, and uh she had a headache, and she was really upset. And I put on a song that she loved, I put on the Ramones. And she asked me afterwards, she said, Mom, why is it that when I'm listening to the music, my pain goes away? And isn't that the truth? It's like the late great Bob Marley said in Trench Town Rock, one good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain. And I think that music helps alleviate suffering, but it also can allow you to lean into the suffering and work through it that way. So there was something very beautiful about it. And I think that groove is a healing quality. And you're you're a healing man, right? So we talk about energy exchange. I think that groove is an energy exchange between the musician and the listener. That's how I interpret it. And so, you know, you you um you really are a very spiritual person, so I know that you can appreciate that as well. It's the connection, right? It's the connection that's fostered when you hear something. So, you know, for my daughter at such a young aim age to identify that, I thought that was really powerful and pure. Um as a child, I always loved music, but let's say the year 1994, I was 12 years old, and record stores were replaced by CD stores, right? So you went and you bought CDs, and I would save up my babysitting money and I would go, and my friends were buying pop music, so ace of bass, you know, music like that. And I was buying the temptations. And they would say, they would say, What is this temptations? I'm like, trust me, you guys just don't know, but this, you know, this is really good music. I love soul music. I love like the Phil Spectre sound, you know, all the the girl groups, like the toys and the supreme. I mean, my God, like that to me was groove. And I I didn't, you know, I was a 90s kid, but it was great to me and it made me feel a different way. So groove is felt on a different level. Now, as an archivist, I think that groove is allowing music and recorded sound to be the great equalizer. And um, this is a sort of interesting thing that came when recorded sound became a thing, because prior to that, music was localized. You could only hear what was in front of you. So you were listening to the music that was in your region. You know, like if you lived in the country, you were listening to bluegrass or country music. If you lived, you know, by listening to opera in Europe, that was what you listened to. You listened to what was around you. But when recordings became a thing and with the inventions, suddenly you could, you know, record something and send it across the world. And somebody in Australia could listen to music that was recorded in New Orleans. So it became this way to bring people together and to disseminate ideas. And I want to quote what you said with Eddie Martinez. You said, we are in the communication business. The more vocabulary you have, it's going to be better. And I think that that is so true. When I heard you say that in your previous podcast, I was like, that's it. Like, that is what groove is in the industry, right? Because this is how we're spreading our ideas. And with the invention of recordings, uh, you know, with the recorded sound, now you could take that and spread it everywhere. So how amazing is that to bring a cultures together to like let people who would have never heard uh muddy waters, you know, hear muddy waters just listening to their on on their on their photographs. It's really such an amazing thing. So I think that you know, with that that is groove as well from an industry perspective.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Um I'm just reminded of hearing of mu of my musician friends who would go, let's say maybe playing in Malaysia, and you know that maybe, you know, maybe Malaysians can speak some English. But they're not gonna know they may not know the lyrics. My friends are saying, oh yeah, man, you know, yeah, we're performing, and it's like 20,000 people out there, and all of a sudden they're humming the songs and stuff, and you know, they're trying, you know, they're mouthing his vocabulary. Yeah, his vocabulary. There's actually one question that I that I really can't even ask now because I was gonna ask you, it's like so it's like is groove is something it it's in the boxes, it's in the tapes, and the it's in the documentation. Yes, yes, it is, it just oozes out.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

It does. And I mean, Jerry, you experience groove every day, you know, it's part of your fabric, right? But what what you said about groove being a language, really. I mean, communic you're in the business of communicating. I mean, that is so true. And that just stuck out to me so much. I said I have to quote that because that's great. So you you are quoted in part of my pitch.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah, it reminds me of uh just hearing trains and uh and then your algorithm to say oh yeah, yeah, I remember that's okay. Anyway, it's yeah, it's all groups, so next question. How important is the cultural and historical context when preserving music, especially music that was created during periods of social change, for example.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

That is intense, right? And I think that some of the best music came out of times of discord, right? Because music is a way to send messages and it unifies people, and you the the so the social and the cultural aspect of songwriting. And you'll think about even like uh Pete Seeger, right? And that was actually how I got into being an archivist, is I was listening to Bruce Springsteen's covers of the Seeger sessions, where he covered all the old folk songs. And that was what made me want to have this like go into uh music archiving because I said this is so powerful. These are people really trying to connect, to talk about their suffering and to explain what they're going through, and uh just being able to preserve that, the cultural memory, and to so that future generations can respect and honor this. I felt very drawn to that. And that was why I ended up where I am right now, which is managing, you know, such an incredible collection. Protest music, marches, you know, this is the stuff where such genius really was uh really illustrated here. And for me, it is incredibly powerful.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Next question, and this is about Sony, because Sony they are guardians, they are very much guardians, and the fact that they have you as an archivist that's shining light on the on on Sony and stuff, you know, because and and my and my question is, you know, uh about you know, from your perspective the responsibility that Sony has, not just to artists but to the cultural memory itself. Is that that they are connected, you know. They to me they have they do have this responsibility and plus the fact that they are the world's greatest publishers. So they you know they have a huge responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

They do. And you know, I think that the best way to really look at that is to see the archive as its own sort of living organism, you know. So if we don't use it, touch it, feel it, it doesn't exist, right? What is a stack of cards? What is a bunch of uh metal reels of recorded sound if it isn't heard, if it isn't, you know, even addressed. So I think that in order for it to exist, we need to use it. We need to really be immersed in it. And whether it's a photo that's being held or a label copy card that's being, you know, reissued and uh and and researched, or reels that we're playing, right? So we can actually hear the music. Um I think that by simply involving ourselves with it, we are honoring the legacy of the artist. I think that we are honoring everyone who even put their blood, sweat, and tears into making that track and um in the creation process. So I one very big thing that is very important to me as an archivist, when when most people listen to the song, they will hear the artist who's singing it. So then the name that they know and that they're familiar with. Let's take a Stevie Wonder, for example. You know, you can hear higher ground and you say, Oh, that's you know, a Stevie Wonder song. This is a great song. But for an archivist, we don't just see that name. We see all of the people who came together to make that track. We see the background singers, we see the person who played the trumpet, we see the songwriter, we see the names that are lesser known. And I think that by seeing those names, we are, we are not, they don't need credibility, they have that already, but we are giving acknowledgement and their legacy is living in the archive. You know, so every time we look at that and we we kind of give that mental shout out to those people. And I think that that's Really, really powerful because as you know, Jerry, I mean you're a musician, you've been doing this for how many years? It takes a lot of work to make one good song, right? So it is when you get uh, you know, you get this big name and they make this epic track. Well, you know that that's just the name who's on the track. Yes, they're great, but to make it prolific, you need a prolific team. You need the engineer to be the best. You know, the sound, the sound person, you wanted it edited a perfect way. I mean, there are so many moving parts to make it a whole. And in the archive, I think that we really, really see songs like that. We don't just see, you know, what the average listener sees or hears. We we go much deeper than that.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

It's like looking at the beyond looking at the liner notes.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Oh, yes. Because the liner notes come from us. It's like where do they come from? They come from us.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

So all all you final heads just know you heard it here. If you never heard it before, you heard it here.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

That all those liner notes come from the archivists.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

Yes, we are the internet. We're not googling it, we're Google. We are musical Google people.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Musical Google people. Looking ahead, how do you see the archives shaping storytelling and podcasts, documentaries, films in the future?

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Well, I think that there's a huge demand for biopics right now, uh, docu-series. Um, a lot of filmmakers are looking for authenticity. So, in that sense, they will be leaning on the archive if they respect that sort of thing, which we hope that they do. Also, and again, you and I have talked about this, a lot of covering is happening in the music business where contemporary artists are covering songs that are really much older. I mean, we talk about what like music from the 40s and 50s and 60s being covered by singers of today. And so I think that as long as there's still a kind of thirst for that, the archives will be called upon to really step up and deliver.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Yeah, yeah, I want that song. Oh, you like that song? Yeah, it's from the 30s and 40s. Well, you have to go to the well. Well, where's the well? The archivist.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

The archivist. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Gotta go to the well.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

You do. And you know, you know, Jerry, I think it's funny too, because it used to be that people would listen to an album and it told a story, right? Like you listen to a full album, you commit to listening to an album, and you know, you look at the beautiful artwork on the LP covers and the sleeves and how just visually splendid everything is. And nowadays, you just download one track, then you're on to the next artist. And you download a track, and then you forget, and you stop it halfway through, and then you go on to, you know, doing something else. It's like musical piecemeal now. But it used to be that you had to commit and have discipline, and you want to really experience the full scope of what the musician was saying. So, you know, by I I love the idea of kind of taking a step back in time and having some discipline as we listen to these full stories that are really manifested in full albums. I mean, look, listen to The Wall or you know, Dark Side of the Moon. You have to listen to the whole thing. You can't just listen to want comfortably numb and then just move on to the next thing. You you know, you want to really feel and understand what they're trying to say.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Yeah, you you you point that out, and you know, I'm showing my age, and and it we haven't been away from it that long.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

But that was the magic in buying buying vinyl, and that was the storytelling and the liner notes.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

And then depending on who's reading it, it's like oh, where was this recorded? How many what studio? How many days did they do this? Who's the producer?

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yes. But you know all that. And you've seen it. You live amongst that. Yes, and that is that is incredible. Yeah, it's I mean you are in that space that the music that has been played, is being covered.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

You are the person the the the guardian that people can say, well, you know, this this music or that music is the soundtrack of my life. That this music, that music was the soundtrack of my ancestors' life.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

That's you.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Well, thank you for that. I mean, I I don't want to sound self-important, but I will Sony.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Thank you, Sony.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Thank you, Sony. Yeah, thank you, Sony. There the fact that they have amassed this collection and that it exists, I think is very, very significant because you know, this is sort of like a throwaway culture that we're living in now, right? Where everything is disposable and uh, you know, especially in the digital age where everything is just a download and uh, you know, files are deleted. Well, the fact that this this the physical hard copies live on, that is very impressive. Um, and so being able to kind of manage and survey those collections for me is very gratifying.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Some someday, and I hope someday soon that people will recognize the archivists because I mean they should you know they may not know you, but they should just give a collective thank you.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

So my my closing question is so we we've talked about your day in the in the archives. So this question is when you leave the archives at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

What stays with you the longest? Or what things stay with you the longest?

SPEAKER_03 29:02

I think that sometimes uh you know, we'll get an idea about something, and I'll think to myself, in the middle of the night, even I'll say, Oh, we we could do this better, right? We can enhance the system. We're we're building a digital library right now so that a lot of our assets are able to be viewed by other people in the company. I'll think of a way to kind of enhance it, uh, to make everything more clear. Because really the the job of an archivist is to be able to provide the information in the most time-effective and cost-effective way without compromising the information. And so I think that when I wrap up each day, I ask myself, did I do that? Did I did I compromise anything? Because I have my beliefs, I I, you know, my integrity as an archivist. Did I honor the material? Did I fulfill the requests of whoever wanted the information in a way that is comfortable to me? Right. So in a way that aligns with those values. Um in uh I really make sure that all of the content I worked with is pure, it's unadulterated by varying demands, and that I did a service to my colleagues as well as to the musicians. So again, it's it's finding that kind of happy medium where the musicians are really respected, nothing has changed, but also I was able to provide the necessary results in the best way possible. So, you know, I work for a very large corporation. Um, they have proven to very much respect the uh the history of music, and that's why we still exist as a department. But I also have to just be very careful that I stay true to my values, where the music, the artists really come first, and uh the company as well, though. So you have to kind of think about, you know, you you're looking at both sides and finding this happy medium and a place that is peaceful and comfortable.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Wow, you uh are your moral compass is incredible and with the with the responsibility. So I just want to close. I gotta I gotta say this.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

After this conversation and conversations that we've had a few couple conversations. It's not about the music, but it's the th it's the care, the care that the care it takes to protect something that is so fragile.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Uh the care it takes to honor the artists who gave that gave their lives in sound. The care it takes to understand that history isn't owned but it's trusted. And uh the archives They own a silent place. It's full of echoes, risks, joy, struggle, brilliance.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

And today whoever will listen to this that they're reminded that crew doesn't only live in the performance, but it lives in the preservation and that context. And in the lives of the hands of people like you who understand the culture survives somehow. It's it survives by the choice to protect it. So, Sonia, I wanna thank you.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

I wanna thank the team at Sony for making this possible and for the work you do and they do behind the scenes long after that last note. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jerry. It's been an honor being here. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Groove Don't Lie because the Groove never lies. It's there. And this is one of the guardians of the planet.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Thank you again, Sonia, and thank you, Sony.

SPEAKER_03 33:37

Thank you, Jerry.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

That's a glimpse of what's on you, Caputo, embark us. It's incredible. I'd also I also must thank Sony Music for allowing this podcast and for Sonya to be here. And I need to say this. This conversation reflects historical and cultural perspectives only. No one released proprietary or confidential materials or access or disgust. All views expressed are for educational and editorial purposes. Again, thank you, Sony, and thank you, Sonia Caputo Nymbark, for being a guardian. I thank Sony for being a guardian.