Gerry Brown and Brian Dunne discuss groove (part 1 of 2)

Gerry’s guest for this two-part episode is the music director’s dream drummer, Brian Dunne. Brian has drummed on-stage or recorded with Joe Walsh, Sammy Hagar, Ben Folds, Ariana Grande, Patti Labelle, and Chaka Khan. He currently is the drummer for Hall and Oates and the series Live from Daryl’s House, and, when legendary music directors like Ray Chew need somebody to play on live television for millions of people, they call Brian for his funk and…his groove.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Hey ladies and gentlemen, Jerry Brown here for the Groove Don't I Podcast. Today's guest Mr. Brian Dunn. Drummer. Extraordinaire. For Hollow Notes. Drummer. For live from Darrell's House. Drummer. Concerts and recordings. For Joe Walsh. Sammy Hager. Ben Foltz. Miss Ariana Grande. Miss Patty LaBelle. Miss Chaka Kahn. Damn. Enjoy this. Part one of Brian Dunn. On Groove Don I've got to do that. You know, you've lived quietly inside the bloodstream. R and B, soul pop, and T V music. So with that, you know, in that overlap, tells us says everything from what you've done, you know. Daryl's Daryl's house. You know, Patty Austin. Oh and oats, Bobby Caldwell, Chuck Lowe. So you've been in in in ways. Like you see other people who are like on social media, it's like ha ha you know. But you've done your thing, it's like And you're still there. You don't have to you don't have you know you don't have to so much shine the light on you because the people that have called you and the accounts. If you have accounts roof over the head if you don't have if you don't have any accounts, you may be homeless. So the fact that you've done this and you trusted Yeah, that says that says so much about what you've done and again that trust within the community, within that groove community. So that my brother. Acknowledgement, acknowledgement. So you know, um, you know, with the with the Hall and Oats chapter of of of Brian Dunn. And it, you know, it it over it is overlapped like, you know, Patty Austin, Bobby Caldwell, and Log how would you do you would you say that that has been like a it framed or it was a foundation a foundational gig that has led led you to where you are now? And not uh and not just the side man, no, but you you are a musical problem solver.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah. So uh I I mean are you asking for sort of the the the one sort of situation or gig that uh uh kind of led to pretty much all these things?

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Um or may it it may be it may be that, you know, however you want to frame it.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Okay. I mean, I I will say uh and I I I mean to me it starts it starts from home. It starts from my my experience at home and having having really talented brothers who played and sort of instilling uh uh sort of a pocket-based attitude and uh play the song and play the gig you're on, not the gig you may want to be on. Like just be present and and and and be someone that people can count on. And then also strive to to have your your own flavor, of course. Um and most of everything else should take care of itself. Um in terms of my gigs, the gigs that that I kind of make a living with, um uh, you know, I mean I went from I went from growing up playing mostly just I my first memories of playing is really the very first memory of playing, getting behind my brother's drums is playing along with bad company records. That's like the very first thing, yeah, for me. And and then but then my sisters were Earth Wind and Fire fans, and so we had the the RB thing was always there.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

The shock man, you were you were getting bombarded.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Yeah, yeah. I mean, my brother, my brother would like my brother came home with the Rufus and Shaka Khan live at the Savoy record, that double white record.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

I know that very good. I listened to oh, I wore that out.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Oh my god. And and and like it's it's weird, like even something like that record, some of those live versions of those songs already prepared me for the New York City club scene. You know, I used to play at a club called Cafe Wa on Tuesday, it was Funk Tuesdays. I played there every Tuesday for 17 years. I mean, when I was on the road, the gig was mine when I came home. And like, but like we were still playing those arrangements, the definitive live shaka versions of some of those tunes. So, like, yeah, I mean, my brothers were just huge in terms of preparing me without even knowing they were preparing me. You know what I mean? So, um, yeah, yeah. And the other thing I'm you know, the other thing that that I can re always remember is just little bits of information they would, or little things they would say to me, like, you know, don't worry about drummers, worry about bass players. Well, don't worry, but you know, you want bass players to dig you, you want piano players to dig you, singers to dig you. The drummers don't worry about it. Just don't worry about that. That takes care of itself. So I that's always been sort of my my my uh framework that I you know play with.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Wow, man, again, man. From bad company to ChoctaCon. It's all groove, man. It's all groove. And and when you're not grooving, you get the side eye. Yes. But then what but then when you're playing in people think yes, hey man, hey that's it, man. You know, that that that's that's that's energy, man. That's trust, man. That's and that's priceless. So average white man. How was that coming in after, you know, after after after Mr. Ferroni? And to call him Mr.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yes. Yeah, I mean, I I don't even know what to say. I mean, uh those yeah, that's a tall order. Um, I did my best. They treated me really great. Um, and yeah, I mean, playing that music was so much fun. Um Steve would come out occasionally when we, you know, when we would play in LA, in the LA area, he would always come. He would always stand there on the side watch. He would also come out and play. He would his usual tune was either pieces, pick up the pieces, or schoolboy crush. He'd come out and play one tune. Um, and yeah, man, it was uh for me, it's it's a it was a unbelievable exciting time.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Um gotta ask, when when Steve came out, were there two kids there?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

No, he would just come up, sit on my kit, and just yeah, and like sit on the kit, not touch a thing, just play, which also is mind-blowing to me because I'm um maybe I don't know, maybe because I'm um I'm small, I'm like a short guy, but like I need to be able to reach things and I'm like particular, and it's like I just sat down on the drums, literally nothing to prove. Let's play some music. Oof. Yeah, man. Yeah. By the way, I remember being on when I first joined the band, we were we were we were driving across the country on a tour bus, and uh the whole band was sitting in the front lounge, and Alan, I think it was Alan that said, uh, what's um what's like an introduction to a tune that that you really love, like a real grooving intro or something that caught your ear. And the first thing that came to my mind was what you're gonna do for me with Mr. Ferroni on Shocker's Record with Anthony Jackson. And Alan's response to me was, oh yes, yeah, yeah. He goes, she did a great song on our she did a great job with our tune. And I was like, What? That's an average white man song. What you gonna do for me? They recorded first. That's a cover. Hamer Stewart wrote that. And and ironically, Ferroni's on both. Yeah, yeah. But that intro, that opening snare and hi-hat fill, and like it doesn't take it doesn't take four bars for it to like do this. It's instantaneously grooving. Ah yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Gold magic. Gold. Magic, magic, magic.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

So yeah, the the average white band. It was a you know, with with that specific pocket and and their history. And oh, it absolutely served you well.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Yeah, no, I learned a lot just being around those guys and playing those playing those songs. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Okay, so ladies and so ladies and gentlemen, just in case, okay. You've heard you've heard about, you know, and we'll get back to to uh the hollow notes, but you've heard about AWB. So here's another groove. Miss Patty Austin.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Oh yeah, Patty. The baddest. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what to say. She she I got I uh yeah, I mean, I I used to sub on her on her sort of RB material in that she had two different bands. Um she had LA musicians as well. This was more like when she'd come to the East Coast. But um yeah, I you know uh playing playing Bet You Wouldn't Hurt Me and Razmatazz and stuff like that. It's like it's amazed. For me, it was like that's what I grew up practicing, you know, those Records Quincy records. Um, but then I I I never became more than just a sub for that, but I did I was the drummer for her Ella project, her Great American songbook. So it was a straight, it was a straight ahead thing. And it was a trio and uh just drums, acoustic bass, piano. And sometimes, well more often than not, they would they would put us uh with orchestras in different cities around the country. Uh we I mean we went we played in Italy, we played all over the place, and uh yeah, she was just the the the oh my god, the gold to me, the gold standard of consistency and her control over time and phrasing. It made me, you know, I'm I've always been a little picky about time and and uh she she brought it she's brings it to another level. She can feel the tiniest little things, and so you it just created a see a scenario where the three of us were oh, we would just have to be completely honed in a game, and uh yeah, she's just she was awesome, she really is.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

It sounds like there was not that it doesn't happen elsewhere, but because it is with the three-piece and the vocalist and the orchestra that within the band and with with Patty, there was an emotional intelligence that was you know you're not gonna see that, but yeah, but it was going on and people um you know I mean you you can uh pinpoint it and say, wow, you know, the count that conversation. Yeah, and that situation between you four and and the orchestra. Yeah, yeah, and it's not it's not like the same orchestra all the time, you know, and stuff like that. Yeah, you know, so and probably with Patty, you know, with her brief, you know, you it this wasn't about uh uh you know it was a different it was a different set of rules with the groove where it's like you're not you're not driving it, but you're it's like you almost like you know what you know what it's if you ever seen like tango dances, it's like I and I tried to in my past, you know, I I tried some tango, but there was this thing where it's like as as you know, with with your partner, it's like you know, you're leading and stuff, but it's all so subtle, like in breathing. And like with with with Patty that comes to mind.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Where it's like you.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Yes, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'll tell you what, sh one what it was definitely not was where some sort of karaoke machine and we just play and she just does her thing. She was completely and utterly intertwined with every single note that everybody on that stage was playing. She'd make you feel that way by the way she sang. And if she was 15 feet in front of me, it felt like she was right here. Her presence, her presence is so strong, and she's so she's so comfortable, she's so witty and smart when she speaks to the audience. Like just the whole thing was uh yeah, it was an awesome experience with her as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

So that's kind of like the Patty Austin feathers. So now we're gonna go to another feather, Bobby Calmow.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Yeah, that's a bad dude, man.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

He was a bad dude. Yeah, he was a bad dude and stuff, you know. Uh his music was so smooth, but at the same you know, it it was breathing, you know, w w you know with this restraint. You know, it's like and it's I I always have felt that you know playing with a with such a singer, it's like some different rules, man. It's not about chops and stuff. It's like how you uh no, no, it's not about that, you know. And if he feels happy and he starts vamping and stuff like that, and then it's like yeah, then maybe those four bars are going around and around again, but those four those four bars are special.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Oh, yes. That was it.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

So I'm sure you can elaborate on that.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Yeah, I mean, that's it's funny you say like, you know, hit hitting hitting like a four-bar phrase or something. When we would play What You Won't Do for Love, we get to the end of that tune, it would repeat. And uh the first time I the first time I did the gig, I can remember we played we got into it, and I had, you know, again from doing my like I was really lucky to be playing with some great R ⁇ B players in New York City. And me and this bass player, we had this thing where he's like, Man, if you if we catch, if we catch a pocket, like a like if it if it we really catch something, you're feeling it in your bones. He's like, he's like, even people in the even people like at a club, if you see people not even some people won't even be paying attention, but if it's deep enough, eventually they're gonna be like this. You know what I mean? And and and he was like, he's like, I you you get that not from not from breaking it up every four or eight bars, but by just making it more and more intense, like relentless, don't give up on it. Don't give up on it. And I remember the first time I played with Bobby, we were playing the outro of What You Won't Do. And we're playing that groove, and that was my mentality. I was digging in so hard, I was gonna, yeah, it was like, you know, just digging in as hard as I humanly could, and he's turning around and he's looking back, and that's what he loved. He really did. He was down with it, even when he wasn't singing, and it's not like he's a uh, and he's so talented, he plays piano, he plays all the instruments, but just as uh he just wanted to be part of that pocket too. And he was just as intense, and he won and he let he would let me know, like this is what it's about. So it was pretty, yeah, it's it's it was pretty awesome. Not to mention, you know, the songwriting and the voice, just crazy.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah, when the way you explain that, I'm I'm thinking of um a song and it's the riff at the end. And they don't normally do they don't do that now in in in music that is predicted if rarely. Uh and it was you know it was uh it was a session it's from the group The Spinners and they're doing Mighty Love and that three-bar riff at the end with Felipe Wynn. And it's like the cats are playing, but it seems like every three bars man, it's just oh taking it to another level, taking it to no, you're playing the same stuff, but there's a there's there's a intention. So man, that must have been man where the times that you feel it's like man, I'm sitting in the middle of this, man.

unknown 21:04

I can't believe this.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

I can't believe this, man.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

It's like I'm playing with this cat. Absolutely. I I I tend to always, I'm such a fan of the of so many people, so like I I'm always I'm always sort of like I'm you know, I'm in the mindset of I'm not worthy. So I'm not letting any of this go by without appreciating, you know, getting to getting to do this with with great great players. Whether it's in a little club or it's on a big stage, it's like there's greatness everywhere. So I'm gonna soak up every one of those moments.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

And that you're doing that, you're projecting that back, you're projecting that out, and the leaders feel that, the band members feel it, the audience feels that. It's a beautiful thing, man.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

You're just sitting at a pocket, man. It's like I can't believe it. You know, and and think about your brothers and sisters. Yeah, yeah, I I got the lessons. I got the lessons, baby. I got the lessons. So the feather of the plume for Mr. Chuck Loeb. Another another groove. Kind of jazz sophistication, but with a with a pop clarity. He's sitting in his own, like low, you know. He's got his own he's got his lane. And you're you're in the and you're in the middle of there. And you're serving the music.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

So that yeah, he's he's he's another one. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

No, no, no, man. Go, go.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

He uh yeah, I get excited even when I thought I talk about Chuck, man. He he uh he's meant he's meant uh more uh to me for my just general career. I can't imagine 90% of anything I've ever done since playing with him is somehow related to him because his he carried weight in New York City and the musicians he played with and the respect he garnered was awesome. So just by being there, it it meant a lot. And to this day, it's still it's still things still happen because of him. And even years, even years after not being in his band anymore, like when I left, I left his band by the time I started playing with AWB, that was like real touring. Um, so I was missing more gigs than I was doing with him, and he was like, Yeah, man, go, you gotta go, you gotta do your thing. He was so incredibly cool, and then he would still use me on all his records. I must, I don't know, I must have done, I don't know, eight or nine of his records, and even years after I wasn't playing with him anymore. And yeah, so he's he was incredible for me. And musically speaking, you know, a lot of people know Chuck as a uh uh a smooth jazz artist. Um he's a Bebop guitar player, period.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

And he's got a lot of vocabulary.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

He had a lot of vocabulary vocabulary. Yes, yes, and he he he can, you know, that some of some of his tunes were were uh uh had a touch of pop or RB about them. Um sometimes he would have he would solo over just maybe one or two chords or something, but he felt you can tell his wheelhouse was changes. He wanted for him to navigate through chord changes is what he grew up doing. Um so and he was also a guy that was like always telling, passing on little golden nuggets of info to the guys in his band. He always had a he had a young band. I was probably 22 at the time. And uh, you know, the first time I played in that band, Will Lee was playing bass, which was like uh for me, was uh you know, I get goosebumps now, even thinking about it. And I know Will and I've played with Will, but you know, being 22, 23, and like coming into Chuck Loeb's gig after Zach Danziger leaves it and Will Lee's playing bass, it was you know awesome for me. And uh he would Chuck would you know would just drop these little nuggets of info. He would have us thinking about, you know, he's like, You ever write music? You should think about writing music. You know, I went to Berkeley and uh I left Berkeley to go on the road with Stan Getz. That's his this is Chuck talking, and uh Stan told me I should be writing, and I started writing songs and I wrote some tunes on a Stan Getz record. He goes, like a year and a half later, I was living in Brooklyn. He's like, I was doing nothing but playing straight ahead, and I was poor. He goes, and one day I got a check in the mail. And it was because of the tunes he got on a Stan Getz record, and he was like, eye-opening experience. You may want to think about doing some writing, or maybe want to think about producing. You know, he always had he was always passing on information, you know, in a in a in super valuable and uh the one last thing I'll say really quickly, and it has nothing to do with music, but it's how great of a guy Chuck was. There was a calendar year where he called my house. I lived in an apartment in Brooklyn. He called me every single day, and he would just go like this buy a house, click. He would just tell me every day, buy a house. And I would say, Oh, you know, I can barely pay, I can pay my rent. He goes, Can you pay your rent? I go, I can pay my rent, never an issue. He's like, get in the game, own a house, figure it out, try to just get in there. It's not getting cheaper, it's getting more expensive. And he would and thing like this, these are like fatherly things, you know what I'm saying? Like amazing that he would take the time that that was even on his mind, you know. He was such a great guy. So he he means a lot to me. And musically, again, you know, playing with people that he surrounded himself with was incredible. Will Lee. We did a week at the Blue Note, two nights with Michael Brecker. You know, I'm a I'm a Michael Brecker fanatic. So to play, you know, at the Blue Note with Chuck and Michael Brecker, again, it's like life-changing for me. So yeah, awesome.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

You've had some, you've had incredible moments.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Incredible, man. Was do you know if is there a recording of any of the stuff that you mentioned from that blue note? Being at the blue note and and and uh Michael Brecker?

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Yeah, I can tell you. I mean, I I know that the night we played one of the two nights, I had a little uh mini-disc recorder. Um unfortunately the drums are so loud, but um I do have some of that stuff recorded. One thing I have that's like I will I will cherish is we played a tune. Uh there's a tune on a Chuck Loeb record called Rhythm Ace, and it's like a fast, like an up-tempo kind of swung hip-hop groove. And um and it's based on uh I can't remember, it's it's it's based on these uh standard, these changes, and and so when we're in the middle of the gig, Chuck turns around to the band and he goes, he points everybody out singularly. He's like, you stop, you stop. And he looks at me and he goes, keep playing. And then he looks and he leans over to Brecker and he goes, he's like, take a solo. And we got to the top of the forum. Um, it's based on rhythm changes, that's what I meant to say before. So the song is based on rhythm changes. So he he turned he he turns to Mike and he goes, he points at him, and Michael Brecker starts playing a solo, and it's tenor sacks and drums. And it immediately, it immediately went straight ahead. So, so it's like, and I don't, again, I don't fancy myself, I was better at it then than I am now, that's for sure. But even then, I didn't fancy myself like a really like straight ahead player like this thing. To to me, to me, it's it if it needs to be like Greg Hutchinson or or or or Brian Blade or Bill Stewart, like these guys for me are like other level for that stuff. And I don't feel like I ever had that, but in that moment, I'm like, I'm at the blue note with Michael Brecker playing rhythm changes, tenor sacks and drums. Oh my god. And I have that on I I recorded that. I have that you recorded that. I did, I did, I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

To me, and all the names that you mentioned, absolutely worthy of those gentlemen, uh Hutchinson Stewart going to your mind. But when you said it to me, it's like I'm thinking of Elvin and Train.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Well, yeah, man, that's of course, of course.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

You know, it's like, oh, oh, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Exactly. And then also, you know, like even like on Brecker's first solo record, uh no, uh yeah, on Brecker's first solo record, there's a whole intro to a tune where it's Michael and Jack DeJunette. It's like ah, it's it's very deep.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

It's deep and it's I I still it's it's still kind of hard to fathom that Jack is not with us.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

That guy, man, is like I mean, I was I was hearing back in like 72. One of my fans you gotta listen to DJ Nan. He wasn't even saying Jack is no man, you gotta listen to DJ Nan. You gotta listen to DJ Nan. Anyway, hard to believe. But and you did it with Brecker. Damn.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

By the way, by the way, right around the time that happened, my good friend and your good friend, John Sarapula. Oh Lord, he found he he I remember, I believe I showed him like the thing. I remember him coming to me and saying, Yo, you played with Brecker at the Pluto? I was like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Yeah, my yeah, my other brother.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Yeah, yeah, man. I met John, I think I was about 14 or 15. I I was, yeah, this would be like in 1985. I was 15, and I went and did an audition for a wedding band. Like my father drove me to this wet this girl's house, and John showed up, and it turned out to be like his cousin was the band leader. And John was, I think at that point, maybe he was just finishing up with Berkeley. And I and I was like this little, I'm not a little kid, but I was I was young, you know, there's a big difference between a 14, 15-year-old and a 20-year-old, 21-year-old, you know. And I and and uh and it was right around that time that I I found out who really who he was and who the funk philharmonic was, because I grew up in Long Island. So the me and him, me and him are bros, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

I love that. I love that, man. Man, we yeah, we get in the good trouble. I will I will let him know that his name was mentioned in this podcast. So it's like you need to you need to hear this.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

What did what did he say? What did he say? Uh I'm not telling you, man. No, John, I ain't not telling you, man. No, you just go ahead and listen. And please, everybody, stay tuned for part two on the Groove Don Live Podcast.